Ranking Nick Diaz Against the UFC's Best
by Nate Wilcox on Feb 1, 2011 2:30 PM EST
in Strikeforce Analysis
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In the aftermath of Nick Diaz' title defense against Evangelista Santos, aka Cyborg, there's been a bit of debate about where the man ranks in the welterweight division.
E. Spencer Kyte of UFC content partner Heavy.com says the guy isn't in the top five:
Can a player who is lighting up the American Hockey League really be considered one of the best despite the fact that he's dominating second-tier talent?
Of course not, and that is the same reason why Nick Diaz cannot possibly be considered a Top 5 Welterweight.
Before you go arguing that MMA and team sports shouldn't be compared, just go with it and focus on what is being proposed.
Following his win over Evangelista "Cyborg" Santos on Saturday night, many social media users, both MMA industry members and non-members alike, were trumpeting Diaz's place as one of the five best 170-pound fighters on the planet. Some went as far as to claim he was a top three talent, a stretch that is beyond ridiculous to me.
Don't get me wrong: the Strikeforce champion is on a nine-fight winning streak and has proven to be one of the best welterweights competing outside of the UFC, but a top 5 talent he is not.
Michael David Smith of MMAFighting (and an illustrious member of our rankings panel for the USAT/SBN Consensus MMA Rankings) has a more nuanced take:
7. Nick Diaz (8): So this is where I have Diaz: Moving up one spot after a solid victory over Cyborg, but still not up there with the truly elite in the UFC. Unfortunately, as long as Diaz is fighting under the Strikeforce banner, we're not going to know for sure how he'd match up with the other nine guys on this list.
Our panel as a whole has Diaz ranked at #7 in a tie with Martin Kampmann.
Personally I'm not losing any sleep over the issue. Diaz had a UFC run and it became pretty clear that his fighting style is heavily penalized under the unified rules and modern commission judging systems. He lost three back-to-back decisions against Diego Sanchez, Sean Sherk and Joe Riggs to end his first UFC run. I'd say he only lost the Parisyan fight as a fight, but would have scored the Sherk fight against him as a judge. The Riggs fight was very close and IMO was a questionable decision.
But the point is that we've seen Diaz in the UFC and he struggled against strong grapplers who could put him on his back and grind out decisions.
Diaz has doubtless improved a great deal since then, but he has elected to be a big fish in a small pond rather than going for UFC gold. That's fine with me, his Strikeforce fights have been incredibly fun to watch and I'm curious to see how he fares in a professional boxing bout later this year too. Trying his hand at boxing is not something he'd have been able to do while on a UFC contract.
As much as I'd like to see Diaz try his luck against Josh Koscheck and Jon Fitch, we'll have to settle for Paul Daley and possibly Jason Miller, aka Mayhem. In all likelihood, the Diaz-Daley fight will be more entertaining than watching Diaz get smothered by the AKA boys anyhow.
Diaz is a human being who's free to make his own choices. Those who wish Strikeforce would go out of business so they could see all their dream fights come true in the UFC are hopelessly naive. There is no guarantee that Diaz would even continue an MMA career under those circumstances.
Rankings are fun for conversation, but the only thing that really matters is how many eyeballs a fighter can draw. To the extent that rankings help fighters in their careers they matter, but no more than that.
The important thing about Nick Diaz is he's very fun to watch fight and all indications are that we'll get to see him against some dangerous foes this year. That works for me.
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There's gonna be a LOOOOOOTTTTA comments for this one
If people took the StrikeForce belt seriously, would he be ranked higher?
They made a video game about Yakuzas. It’s called Yakuza. And it’s about Yakuza
gocyborg.wordpress.com
That would be an interesting fight.
Diaz isn’t so helpfless on the ground as the people Kampmann has beaten there before (McFedries), but it wouldn’t be the obviously one-sided match that Nick Diaz vs. Jon Fitch would be.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
Notwithstanding his KO of Koscheck, Thiago’s standup is sub-par and nowhere near Diaz’s. As for ground game, Kampmann did dominate Thiago, who is no slouch there, but is still probably not as good as Diaz.
This is true.
I know Diaz is dangerous on the ground, but the Noons fight gave me pause.
Noons was an inflated LW with supposedly no ground game and somehow he managed to avoid being threatened on the ground. Made me think maybe Diaz is somewhat overrated or Noons is really underrated.
YES ABOUT A #7
As a guestimate I would think if we could round up the top 20 welterweights and have them in a tournament, then Diaz would come out at 7. This is based on hunches and being a long term fan and seeing what he and others can or have done in their past fights.
On paper based on who he’s fought, who he’s lost to and where he is currently as an evolving fighter I would say he’s out of the top 10.
Chicken and egg.
Yes, he would be ranked higher if people took the SF belt seriously.
But how d’you make people take the SF belt seriously? Have better (see: higher-ranked) fighters vying for it.
None more gangster.
"What if I told you yut yut Devil Dog Semper Fi oohrah?"
by alicks on Feb 1, 2011 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Kinda like Manny Paciuao fighting everybody thats not "in the mix" in the 140-147 area?
Fuck Bob Arum btw
They made a video game about Yakuzas. It’s called Yakuza. And it’s about Yakuza
gocyborg.wordpress.com
HELL NO!
How many welterweights has Nick fought that were even ranked in the top 15! His last match against Cyborg, the dude wasn’t even in the top 25! All of a sudden he beats this dude and now people say oh he should be ranked higher. Sorry dont agree with that at all. Nick is a shark in a pool of goldfish. He wants to be ranked higher then 7 (which I still think is a stretch) he needs to step up, leave Strikeforce and fight in the UFC.
It's funny that when people say, Nick Diaz top 5, eveyrone screams from the top of their lungs
but say Overeem #1 heavyweight and everybody will just pretend it’s the best news they have heard next to having a triplet.
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by SheepleBuster on Feb 1, 2011 4:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You know better than that
But because few would argue Overeem MIGHT be one of the best HWs, it is a completely different case – he just doesn’t have the track record in MMA, which affects his ranking disproportionately due to the small-minded ones who look only at that rather than the big picture.
Of course, we will know soon enough if Overeem is legit or not, but there are no WWs in SF who can further legitimize Diaz, other than perhaps Daley.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
I am sorry. I am not willing to call Overeem anything
unless he wins that tournament. I won’t think of him as anything if he just beats Werdum. He needs to win at least 2 fights against 2 quality opponents for me to think of Overeem as best in anything. He might be a great kickboxer. Beating Duffee won’t make him the best in anything. I am not saying he is not. Diaz is much more proven than Overeem. that’s juts a fact.
"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMA Answers
by SheepleBuster on Feb 1, 2011 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
How is that a fact?
Has Diaz beaten any top-10 guys in his weight class in the last 3 years?
Nevertheless, both have much to prove to many fans, I just wish the betting lines on Overeem (and Jones) were more reflective of what people like you think than of reality, so some money could be made on them.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
betting is for fools
As far as I am concerned, it’s all garbage.
"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMA Answers
by SheepleBuster on Feb 1, 2011 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
you lie!
"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMA Answers
by SheepleBuster on Feb 1, 2011 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
LOL
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
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LOL
For one who claims to be so open-minded, you said that with the conviction of one who lost his ass on a “sure thing” at some point…
Having said that, no one should gamble with anything they can’t afford to lose (not games of skill like poker, but true gambling), but if you are careful in selecting your underdogs who perhaps shouldn’t be, or build your parlays with care and not let your fanboyism influence your picks…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
Just for the purpose of the conversation
And not because rankings are all that meaningful in the grand scheme of things, I have Nick just outside the top ten. In my mind, he benefits greatly form being the big fish in the small pond and he has not shown to have solved the deficiencies that hampered him in his last UFC run.
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
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by Worldisart on Feb 1, 2011 2:37 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I think it's fair.
Honestly, I’m not too worked up about how the unified rules are skewed in favor of wrestlers. At the end of the day, how else would you score it? I hear general carping about “they don’t even try to finish fights” but I don’t see how you don’t score a fight for the guy pinning his opponent down and dropping any kind of strikes on him at all over the guy on the bottom not doing anything.
Submission attempts mean only slightly more to me than missed strikes. If your fighting style is based on lying on your back you should probably plan on finishing.
If your fighting style is based on lying on your back you should probably plan on finishing.
Words to watch MMA by.
This fight for the fish is a fight to the death!
by doonerthesooner on Feb 1, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
I wouldn’t really be comfortable ranking him anywhere. I tend to agree with MDS opinion on Nick if not his ranking of him. That said, I am more than happy watching him fight in SF. He puts on really amazing fights to watch, which is all I ask.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
Diaz's talent is likely higher than his ranking,
But that being said, how many highly ranked UFC fighters would beat him. Fitch, GSP, and Kos easily unless he somehow found a sub from the bottom. Nick was checking Cyborg’s kicks like Rampage so that likely means Alves would chop him down. So that brings us to where it’s really cool. Condit and Kampmann. Any of those three could win any matchup I think, and they would all be incredibly awesome fights. I’d like to see that. Then Bj Penn would probably annihilate him considering he’s Bj. Then I think he beats the Hardy’s and the Lytles and the Hughes and the Paulo Thiagos of the division. I also think he’d take Sanchez in a rematch.
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by Neil Manich on Feb 1, 2011 2:41 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
I don’t know about Sanchez. Hasn’t Nick always had a problem with wrestlers? Or am I confusing him with Nate? Anyone would know better than to just jump into his guard like Santos did (I was so mad, once he moved his hips…game over). But I think a lot of the UFC fighters would keep in standing with him and ACTUALLY HAVE DECENT HEAD MOVEMENT!!!
They made a video game about Yakuzas. It’s called Yakuza. And it’s about Yakuza
gocyborg.wordpress.com
So True.
I dont know why, but people in strikeforce tend to block punches with their face. If Diaz fought Condit or Diego, he find his slop box style of punching wouldnt help much against their chins.
Thank you
Cause I can’t sit here and beleive that he has a “killer jab.” Mayweather has a killer jab. BJ Penn has a killer jab. GSP NOW has a killer jab.
They made a video game about Yakuzas. It’s called Yakuza. And it’s about Yakuza
gocyborg.wordpress.com
I know!
Diaz knows if he goes to the UFC Dana is gonna test against either Diego or Condit. Both of those I feel would tear him apart standing. Their chins are more then capable of taking Nick’s peppering punches. Don’t even get me started on Alves or Fitch.
Diego isn't going to tear anybody up standing
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Head Kick Legend
Ok.
Maybe tear up wasnt the best choice of words. I think Diego at welterweight is gonna be dangerous. I think he would give Nick more trouble standing then you think.
No way
Diego’s boxing is so basic and not smooth at all.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
Compared to Diego he's Mayweather
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by Neil Manich on Feb 1, 2011 3:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I was gonna say those exact words
but the pretty boy don’t get hit.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
how about Ward or Gatti?
taking punches to deliver punches. Santos had power going for him, and was still rocked heavily by those ‘peppering’ shots.
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
That's why I said Tommy Hearns
Nick is long, he’s tough and he’s starting to show some real power in those shots.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
a lot of people don’t think he has a killer jab until they eat about 80 per round. Its not power, its VOLUME. I’d agree with KN that he’s around #7, but he’d test anyone in the top 5 -not saying he’d win, but definitely test them. There would be a lot more decisions than stoppages in that zone.
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
When Diaz fights Daley
he better get more serious about getting out of the way of incoming punches.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Feb 1, 2011 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
I think Hughes would still have something for Diaz. And, not that they would fight, but Shields ranks higher, obviously. Nick sits at about the 10 spot on my WW list.
I should have satyed out of Cain’s strawberry patch.
Diaz's guard would give Hughes problems
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There is no way
Diaz has anything for Matt from guard.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
Every time he gets put on his back he grabs a sub. Every time. Say what you want about Mach, sure he’s a ghost of what he once was, but he’s a good top control guy.
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Head Kick Legend
Mach is a good top control guy. Matt is one of the best top control guys ever. Matt is Great. Mach is very good. It’s worlds different.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
Matt used to be
And he caught that Mach sub in about ten seconds. He’d have fifteen minutes against Matt.
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Head Kick Legend
Wth
There is no evidence that suggests Matt’s top control how somehow diminished.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
Man Lytle/Diaz would be a AWESOME fight.
This fight for the fish is a fight to the death!
by doonerthesooner on Feb 1, 2011 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
WORD
"Progress lies not in enhancing what is, but in advancing toward what will be." - Kahlil Gibran
by merryprankster on Feb 1, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
Incorrect.
He lost three back-to-back decisions against Karo Pariysan, Sean Sherk and Joe Riggs to end his first UFC run. I’d say he only lost the Parisyan fight as a fight, but would have scored the Sherk fight against him as a judge. The Riggs fight was very close and IMO was a questionable decision.
You’re thinking Diego Sanchez, not Karo.
Do you think you could clarify what you’re trying to say in those last two sentences? I’m not really following.
I know less about recognizing true fighting talent than George W. Bush does about finding weapons of mass destruction. From now on if I wanna pick a winner I will ask the-gentle-way.
It’s not clear as day to you? He thinks the loss to Karo was just, He thinks Diaz beat up Sherk and on the street would have ‘won’ the fight, but if he had to score under the unified rules he’d be forced to give it to Sherk, And he thinks Riggs was a close fight and should have been given to Nick.
Seems to me that he’s saying at least 2 of his last 3 UFC fights shouldn’t be counted against him when saying he would get demolished in the UFC. Or were you just looking to argue his opinion with him?
I was actually looking for him to clarify what he was saying, considering I was talking to him.
I know less about recognizing true fighting talent than George W. Bush does about finding weapons of mass destruction. From now on if I wanna pick a winner I will ask the-gentle-way.
by lowellthehammer on Feb 1, 2011 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
MRR1 summed it up pretty much correctly.
But I’m saying between his losses to Karo, Diego, Sherk and Riggs we know that the combination of unified rules judging and the UFC’s wrestler-heavy talent pool is pretty lethal for Diaz.
Having said that I’d love to see him in the cage with Kampmann or Condit.
But we won’t so whatever.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Dont Care
Rankings are stupid. I would rather watch Nick Diaz fight than your #2 Jon Fitch. He puts on an amazing show every time and all your rankings do is serve to undermine that, not to mention undermine how dangerous cyborg is. A fight is a fight folks.
by ODBasyoucansee on Feb 1, 2011 2:50 PM EST reply actions 8 recs
Do me a favor rankers
Think of all your favorite fighters, the guys who put on the greatest of shows, who you would always go out of your way to watch. Now look at your consensus rankings and see if they are there in the top 10? If they are, lucky you. How many are guys who might prompt you to check the score on your favorite sports game, even during a PPV? Exactly
by ODBasyoucansee on Feb 1, 2011 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
I like watching the best guys fight the best guys.
I should have satyed out of Cain’s strawberry patch.
by donkeypunch on Feb 1, 2011 2:57 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Me too buddeh
But you wont see me lobbying for a Jon Fitch Jake Sheilds fight any time soon
by ODBasyoucansee on Feb 1, 2011 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
That could be some of the best MMA grappling we’ve seen in years. But if you’re not that into the ground game, then I can see your point.
I should have satyed out of Cain’s strawberry patch.
No, probably not
Fitch doesn’t really try to advance that much, no slick sweeps or transitions. It would likely be either Fitch smothering Shields or one of those fights where their wrestling cancels out each other and they end up on their feet the entire fight.
So what’s the point of having winners and losers if all that matters is how exciting the fight is? Competition doesn’t exist for the sole purpose of providing excitement, spectator sport or not.
by Rahson on Feb 1, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
and I as a fan
Dont exist solely to watch competition, i want to be excited.
by ODBasyoucansee on Feb 1, 2011 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
Dont get me wrong guys
I do appreciate the ground game. I enjoy most aspects of mma. Some guys are just consistently boring and i would rather watch a really exciting fight from two guys who arent necessarily top ten than a boring fight from the upper tier fighters.
by ODBasyoucansee on Feb 1, 2011 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
I think Shields and Fitch would actually be pretty entertaining
since you can’t lay and pray either guy.
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by Nate Wilcox on Feb 1, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That
is one of the best potential fights out there at WW.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
It’s on my top 5 list of fights I want to see at the moment. I can’t wait for it.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
That's good!
But a UFC card usually has something for everyone. It’s really about pitting the best against the best at the top of the card, but there’s usually some bar-room brawls scheduled underneath. I will say that SF matchmakers are smart to shield Diaz from the clock-killing wrestlers out there. They really do it by not bringing those types of fighters in and by phasing the ones they have out. And Diaz is smart to fight in a promotion with the savvy (or lack of scruples) to keep him upright. Of course, they have one of the top prospects in the sport, Woodley, and he’s an absolute beast of a wrestler. It will be interesting to see how quickly, or slowly, that Diaz/Woodley fight happens, if at all.
by Charlie Custer on Feb 1, 2011 7:10 PM EST up reply actions
Okay that’s fine. But as long as there are rewards and accolades in MMA for winning, and guys continue to lose their jobs for losing, every fight will not be exciting, nor should they be expected to be. And please remember that excitement in combat sports goes hand-in-hand with matchups. As long as guys in Strikeforce stand there and let Diaz hit them constantly and make genius decisions like jump in his guard, he’ll continue to have exciting fights.
True. Diaz is easily one of my favorite fighters to watch...
As for Cyborg, sure he is dangerous, he is dangerous the same way a fighter like Jorge Rivera, Cyrille Diabate, Luiz Cane or Alessio Sakara is dangerous. Powerful strikers who “can” finish anyone if then land the right punch.
That said, he has shown that he will consistently lose to top levels of competition. He has had some good fights and some exciting fights, but truthfully Zaromskis is probably the only fighter he has defeated that had even a smidgen of hype.
Taking a bunch of punishment from a guy at that level, then finishing him just as 30% of his opponents have isn’t an earth shattering accomplishment.
Good Read
This article summed up what was going on in my mind after he closed out the show on Saturday. I have been a critic of Diaz Sr. for awhile now and while I have little doubt he is a Top 10 Welterweight, there is no way to really know until he is consistently tested with other top talent. We like to rip on the UFC and Dana White for his whole the UFC is the only org that matters but when you look at a guy like St. PIerre, who has fought top guys everytime out, it’s hard to see where Nick lines up. I suppose Jake Shields will be a good indicator of this theory. While Jake has won 14 or 15 in a row, he never got the cred because he would bounce around with the caliber of talent he fought. By coming to the UFC he will consistently be facing top guys so we shall see. Overall I think Nick would do very well in the UFC ww division, but it is a division full of grinders. As far as the dream matchups Nate referred to, reading this article has me wishing we could see a Condit vs. Diaz matchup someday.
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Shields is not the best indicator...
I think Shields did a better job of fighting tough competition outside of the UFC than Diaz has. Shields has beaten credible guys in Miller, Hendo, Daley, Condit, and Okami (I thought Okami won). However, I get your point, I just do not think it would be an even comparison. I do agree that Diaz would probably hold his own in the UFC though.
Styles make fights.
Wrestlers beat Diaz.
Lots of wrestlers in the UFC at 170.
by The Ghost of Spike Owen on Feb 1, 2011 2:52 PM EST reply actions
It isn't just that...
Diaz didn’t exactly blow apart the unranked LW KJ Noons.
Zaromskis? Cyborg? He should beat these guys…
Diaz belongs in the top 10. 7 sounds fine to me, but top 5? Let him get past Daley first.
Daley would be his best win since Gomi and arguable the best win of his career.
I think Noons is ranked well below his ability due to inactivity.
by HarmlessNinja on Feb 1, 2011 7:56 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Hard to Disagree
I want to see Diaz in the UFC.
Kampmann would be a great entry-level fight.
http://blaryphotography.com/miscport/
Diaz
would wreck Chris. I am a HUGE Lytle fan, but he just has no way to win that fight IMO.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
Again?
I know less about recognizing true fighting talent than George W. Bush does about finding weapons of mass destruction. From now on if I wanna pick a winner I will ask the-gentle-way.
by lowellthehammer on Feb 1, 2011 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
It's been nine years
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
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by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
Both have improved.
Not really a fight that needs to happen or is interesting to me.
I know less about recognizing true fighting talent than George W. Bush does about finding weapons of mass destruction. From now on if I wanna pick a winner I will ask the-gentle-way.
by lowellthehammer on Feb 1, 2011 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
I wouldn't, either...
He’s a great test for top talent coming into the UFC from other organizations.
Personally I thought he got the better of Shields.
http://blaryphotography.com/miscport/
Well,
Condit and Shields were champions, and the Daley fight was an accident.
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Also, some could argue that he won both the Shields and Condit fights & that the Daley stoppage was premature
Which reminds me
I think Kampmann must circle right in his sleep.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
Nick Diaz is good.
Bottom line. Way, way, way better since he was in the UFC before. How good is he? The best any side can do is speculate.
Best case scenario. Diaz beats Daley and then Miller (who would be bigger than him) and continues to win until his contract is up.
Then, Diaz finally comes back to the UFC. That’s the only way we can tell.
I see Diaz at least taking Kampmann, the rest is up for debate.
I don’t think Diaz’s downfall would just be a great wrestler. Nick’s BJJ is just too good. The Greg Jackson method is all fine and dandy but that’s a 50/50 you are going to grind out the decision or get submitted, and if Diaz is outboxing you on your feet, those just aren’t good odds.
The best person for Diaz would seem to be someone with good leg kicks, great wrestling and great head movement who is also a formidable boxer.
I think a plain jane wrestler would do just fine
Diaz’s downfall in the UFC was great top control guys. Parysian, Sherk, Sanchez. He hasn’t faced anyone with the type of top control those guys have, and Koscheck, Fitch, Shields, even Hughes have the wrestling and the top control to exploit that gaping hole in his skillset. I’m not even sure he takes Kampmann that easily
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by sitnam90 on Feb 1, 2011 4:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I have him at #1 in my rankings
But rankings don’t really mean crap in MMA. If you look at the other 9 in the top 10 only one or two has multiple wins against other top 10 opponents. All we can do is sit here and argue over each other’s opinion.
Also, on a side not the comparison between the AHL and NHL is really bad. A better analogy would be college football players in smaller conferences being compared to someone in the SEC. EX: Ben Roethlisberger was no good because he played at Miami (oh). He won’t do anything in the NFL
You have him at #1
There’s a shocker. But I’m sure you’re the picture of objectivity when assessing the merits of Nick Diaz relative to the rest of the division.
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
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His point is that it doesn't matter. Guess you missed that.
I know less about recognizing true fighting talent than George W. Bush does about finding weapons of mass destruction. From now on if I wanna pick a winner I will ask the-gentle-way.
by lowellthehammer on Feb 1, 2011 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
His point is invalid
Sure it matters. You know why? Because there’s a very large portion of MMA fans who think it matters. Because there’s all kinds of media covering the sport that thinks it matters enough to compile rankings, discuss and debate them, break them down and analyze them.
While they certainly aren’t the be all and end all, the mere existence of this article and all the accompanying comments surely illustrate that there is some merit to rankings in the sport of MMA.
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A huge contingent of fans also think that Dana White's love of Pinkberry matters
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Head Kick Legend
How is that remotely relevant to this conversation or my comments?
Surely you are capable of the objective reasoning needed to separate a discussion of Dana White’s love of frozen yogurt from a discussion about where a fighter stands relative to his contemporaries.
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
- Mike Fagan
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People caring about something doesn’t make it matter.
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Head Kick Legend
like Darfur
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
by TheFilt on Feb 1, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
wait- before you take this out of context
I don’t mean Darfur doesn’t matter, I mean to say that unfortunately, many people do care- but it’s not enough to get the necessary aid. A whole, whole lot more people, more important people, would need to care.
by Body Triangle on Feb 1, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
Unfortunately in the case of rankings
It kind of does. And it still doesn’t make your pinkberry comment any less silly.
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
- Mike Fagan
Support independent artists
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You’re trying to state that rankings have to be done a certain way. That’s not true.
Still a Beer Monster.
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This is silly
Rankings have never been, are not and will never be about hypothetical matchmaking. They are descriptive, not predictive.
Is it impossible for a guy like Holland to disregard that? Yes. He, and anyone else that ranks based on anything other than in-cage accomplishments, is still wrong for doing so.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
There is no right or wrong. There’s only an opinion. That’s the point I’m making.
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Overeem at #1 is wrong. Alvarez at #1 is wrong.
There’s no way around that. Those are incorrect, erroneous rankings, and if both fighters never lose a fight again, they are and were still improperly ranked today.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
Again, there is no wrong in thinking that. It just goes against the majority.
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If we were ranking the world’s most powerful military forces, and I had this sneaking suspicion that Mongolia could kick Russia’s ass, I would still have to rank Russia ahead of Mongolia, because that’s how rankings work. They’re not about trying to be smarter/ahead of the curve than everyone else.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
So explain preseason rankings by your reasoning
and why the in-season rankings simply build off them rather than disregard them completely. Let me guess, you’ll offer up the “individual vs. team” point when it has no relevance here since we are discussing rankings…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
Preseason rankings are bullshit. That’s my reasoning.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
And yet week 1 rankings
are directly derived from those. Rankings are also about hypotheticals and extrapolations to a degree when you are dealing with such a small sample set.
Case in point – Brock’s rankings have been based as much on hype and hypothesis as actual accomplishments, considering that all UFC HW rankings are ultimately built on a foundation of no more than beating Frank Mir or beating post-PRIDE Nog.
Of course, the same sort of thing can be done almost everywhere, excepting the UFC’s WW class.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
Case in point my ass. Brock beat three straight top ten heavyweights, culminating with Carwin’s #3. He wasn’t ranked at 1 until he beat #3 and Fedor lost.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
But your UFC goggles still blind you
Carwin’s ONLY top-10 win was also Mir. Randy hasn’t beaten a top-10 HW since who?
But more importantly, the inherently small sample size combined with almost no common opponents aside from Frank Mir and Z. Nog mean that, by definition there is much subjectivity in the rankings, whether you wish to see it or not.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
Randy was coming off of back to back wins over top ten heavies Sylvia and Gonzaga (who had just nuked Cro Cop when everyone still loved him).
I also don’t think Nog is completely shot because he lost to Frank Mir (with horrendous staph) and Cain Velasquez (who turned out to be pretty good). I think PRIDE goggles lead to that conclusion.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
And I should have left that out, knowing it would destract from the real point
The inherently small sample size combined with almost no common opponents aside from Frank Mir and post-PRIDE Nog mean that, by definition there is much subjectivity in the rankings, whether you wish to see it or not.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
, considering that all UFC HW rankings are ultimately built on a foundation of no more than beating Frank Mir or beating post-PRIDE Nog.
This is bullshit. JDS hasn’t fought either of those dudes. And what HW’s outside of the UFC have done more in the last ~ 3 years than the big 4 in the UFC?
Way to take things out of context
The very next sentence was:
Of course, the same sort of thing can be done almost everywhere, excepting the UFC’s WW class.
And the entire thing was in the context of demonstrating to Subo that the rankings are inherently subjective, regardless of how he personally imagines it to be.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
The next sentence is irrelevant to the fact that UFC HW rankings are NOT built all on a foundation of beating Mir and “post-PRIDE Nog”.
You are wrong about that. JDS hasn’t fought those dudes. His ranking doesn’t come from fighting opponents who have fought them. It comes from Roy, and Struve, and Werdum, and Gonzaga.
So way to try and distract from the fact that JDS’s ranking has NOTHING TO DO w/ him fighting Nog or Mir or even opponents who have fought them.
I addressed JDS elsewhere here,
long before your comment, but you are of course completely correct about him.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
The next sentence is irrelevant to the fact that UFC HW rankings are NOT built all on a foundation of beating Mir and "post-PRIDE Nog".
You are wrong about that. JDS hasn’t fought those dudes. His ranking doesn’t come from fighting opponents who have fought them. It comes from Roy, and Struve, and Werdum, and Gonzaga.
So way to try and distract from the fact that JDS’s ranking has NOTHING TO DO w/ him fighting Nog or Mir or even opponents who have fought them.
I read this about someone theother day
That makes a ton of sense.
If evidence arises that runs contrary to how you view things, dismiss it. It clearly means nothing.
by lowellthehammer on Jan 30, 2011 12:09 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
More to the point
That is how YOUR rankings work, not necessarily everyone’s, particularly when in most divisions there are no more than 1-2 fights against fellow top-10 guys, long time champs such as GSP excepted.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
Rankings are only right or wrong in hindsight
If a higher ranked guy beats a lower ranked guy then obviously those two guys were ranked correctly relative to each other. If the lower ranked guy wins then somebody fucked up and it’s time to fix the rankings.
Lets say somebody has Overeem ranked #1 today. So if Overeem cleans out the Strikeforce GP then goes to UFC and mows through all of their best, wouldn’t we have to look back and say, “Huh, he really was #1”?
Never approach a vast undertaking with a half-vast plan.
No
Because you earn the #1 spot with wins. Just because Auburn finished the season #1 doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have started the season at 22. They won games, proved it on the field and were ranked accordingly. That’s all anyone is asking of Overeem/Diaz/insert name here.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
Yes
Auburn’s ranking climbed to #1 because a season full of new data altered people’s predictions about what would happen in a football game of Auburn vs. anybody else. There’s nothing to “earn” because there’s no contract saying you get ranked #1 if you win all your games. If Auburn had won lots of games on flukes or bad calls or something then they probably wouldn’t have made it to #1 no matter what their record.
Never approach a vast undertaking with a half-vast plan.
you don't get to #1 in college football
when you go undefeated in the SEC. Bad calls or whatever else you want to look at it as, that is the premier division in NCAA football. Luck and screw-ups will not carry you through an entire season in that division.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Feb 1, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
Luck has PLENTY to do with going undefeated in the SEC.
Believe that. It’s not the only thing but trust me it plays a factor.
oh it'll win you a game or two
but not a season. you need large amounts of skill, talent, etc etc etc to do that
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Feb 1, 2011 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
Most definitely.
But a little luck is needed to undefeated in anything, especially college football.
The sample size allows it to play out like that
where, in this year’s case, only 3 big name schools finished undefeated, but even so, because of a lack of common opponents the only way Auburn was #1, Oregon #2 and TCU #3 was because the voters SUBJECTIVELY DECIDED that this was the correct order.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed on both points
And the reason being so falls in that neither Alvarez or Overeem are fighting top competition. Subo is this what you were getting at?
Respect the Elbow and follow me on Twitter @DuaneFinleyMMA
Yes.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
Then I double action agree. I think there is no doubting the fact that Overeem is a beast and Alvarez is a top lightweight, but until they are facing and defeating top caliber comp then they shouldn’t be the number 1 ranked fighter. When Edgar beat Penn at 112 I wasn’t ready to give him the top spot but after doing it twice and having a solid performance at 125, even Gil Melendez agrees.
Respect the Elbow and follow me on Twitter @DuaneFinleyMMA
Should Overeem win the SF tourney, JDS beats Brock and Cain continues to be unable to fight, do you then see an argument for Overeem at #1?
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
While I agree with that in theory
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Head Kick Legend
Not a Clerks fan I take it?
That movie was fucking hilarious…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
inasmuch as fully agreeing with Subo so strongly irks me a bit
“All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”
“In the age of political correctness and relativism, we are often led to believe that all opinions have equal value. They don’t. Some are right, some are wrong and most are somewhere in-between.
We do ourselves and our culture a disservice by accepting the opinion that fried eggs are covertly running our planet has equal value to the rational opinion of an expert that is grounded in research and fact."
“Not all opinions are created equal. And the more ill- or un-informed they are, the less value they hold.”
I could go on and on
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Feb 1, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Nowhere did I state that
In fact I agree with the premise that rankings are largely a reflection of an individuals opinion.
What I’m disagreeing with is the notion that rankings don’t matter and using the large amount of debate over them as an illustration of why they do matter.
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
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Ok buddy
Reminds me of the Al Gore doll from The Simpsons, “You are hearing me talk.” Rankings are fun to squabble about, but they don’t matter.
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Head Kick Legend
I agree with you that rankings don’t matter, but that sentence on its own is the very definition of contradiction.
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You are helping my argument
Because there is soooooooo many people analyzing this I believe it makes the rankings that more diluted, and therefore just an expression of one’s opinion.
Sure they are a reflection of one's opinion.
But that’s not what you said. You said:
“But rankings don’t really mean crap in MMA”
And that’s simply not true otherwise this conversation wouldn’t be happening.
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
- Mike Fagan
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We talk about Nick Diaz owning a Honda. Does that matter? He’s not very far off by saying rankings don’t really mean crap. Joe Silva isn’t on sherdog or BE looking at the rankings when he’s matchmaking.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
But surely
Silva and co are cognizant of a certain public opinion and that does influence the fights they make, not entirely but to a point.
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Of course not
Given that they don’t have the power to put them in a match. However take the example of Jake Shields, him getting a title shot after one victory is assigning him a certain spot in the pecking order based on the entirety of his accomplishments, including his victories in Strikeforce.
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
- Mike Fagan
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I think it was more the dismantling of Dan Henderson, Dana’s dislike for Dan, and Dan leaving the org for Jake’s run. If Jake stays in Strikeforce this article is about Jake Sheilds credibilty not Nick’s.
Excellent point
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
Jake's credibility
skyrocketed as a result of the Henderson fight. And not just with Dana, but with everyone who saw how easy he made it look.
by Charlie Custer on Feb 1, 2011 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
I’m curious — you really see a Diaz winning a fight against George? Personally, I think GSP’s spot atop the division is more secure than Tony Manero in a disco dance-off, but the rest, to me, mostly comes down to opinion. Clearly though, there’s no one on earth at that weight, including GSP, that walks through Diaz.
by Charlie Custer on Feb 1, 2011 7:24 PM EST up reply actions
The recent lightweight pairings would argue against that
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Head Kick Legend
All I can say is...
……."Can a player who is lighting up the American Hockey League really be considered one of the best despite the fact that he’s dominating second-tier talent?
Of course not, and that is the same reason why Nick Diaz cannot possibly be considered a Top 5 Welterweight.
Before you go arguing that MMA and team sports shouldn’t be compared, just go with it and focus on what is being proposed."
Um, NO…How about we don’t “just go with it and focus on what is being proposed.” Whats the point of going that route is thats obvisouly the wrong way of looking at it. Thats like sayin ok, I know Im wrong, but lets just say I right……
Is he asking us to suspend our disbelief?
Before you go arguing that MMA and team sports shouldn’t be compared, just go with it and focus on what is being proposed.
So even if we believe the premise is false we should consider the argument?
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
by TheFilt on Feb 1, 2011 3:02 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
THIS
I'm Don Frye and you're not - Don Frye
by MrTechnique420 on Feb 1, 2011 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
Am I missing something?
Who exactly is putting Diaz in the top 5 at WW?
The same people.....
….Who ranks Vitor Belfort a top 10 MW even though he has wins over 2 non ranked MWs, not having 1 MW fight in the UFC and having not fought at MW in over 2 years. I thought inactivity was a factor in rankings. So much for that.
by Cestus84 on Feb 1, 2011 3:29 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
It is,
but only for certain fighters…depends on what point someone is trying to make I suppose…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
Based on his talent, I'd put him in the top 5. Probably number 5.
Just like I’d put Overeem in the top 5 based on his pure talent, and how he’s winning, even though he hasn’t really beaten anyone at Heavyweight.
I think you rank by resume and talent. Incorporate both into your thinking when considering the rankings.
As some people have said already, we just have to speculate from here.
Well, look at the top 8 UFC Welter weights. GSP, Fitch,Shields,Penn,Kampann,Alves, Hardy, Koscheck.
Diaz takes Kampann,Alves and Hardy easily.He beats Koscheck is a question mark, but he beats Kos on the feet any given day, and if Kos takes it to the ground, he’s getting subbed, in my opinion, so I’ll give it to Diaz. I think he beats today’s Penn as well. I honestly believe it. GSP,Fitch will beat him. And he won’t fight Shields, so that’s five out of seven that he fights.
It’s all speculation, but I think most would agree with me on that.
So, with talent and speculation, that’s what I come up with, but until he were to actually do that, I understand your reasoning for placing him 7th.
Well, rankings are whatever you want them to be as a ranker. Generally people rank based on wins and losses, but there’s subjectivity in the matter. There’s more than one way to skin a cat.
Still a Beer Monster.
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If Luke reads that he’ll likely try to take back your mod powers.
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Head Kick Legend
Leland too. I don’t mean any disrespect to BE or it’s rankers. I just don’t see why there’s only one way to do something so hugely subjective.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
Because it’s not a “who-beats-who in your mind” competition. No rankings system has ever been like that ever.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
Plenty of ranking systems have taken that into account in combat sports. Boxing, for example. You just want your way to be right. That’s fine. But it’s still just an opinion.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
There’s a right way and a wrong way to do rankings. Putting guys you think would win over guys that have actually accomplished things is the wrong way.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
Rankings are very similar to this conversation we’re having. You see it one way. I see it another. There’s no way to factually say one way or the other. You can analyze data and draw conclusions. So can I. Neither of us is right or wrong. You just think your way (and the way a lot of people rank) is correct. While I think that way works as well, it’s not the only way.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
Nope. Rankings are supposed to be a reflection, not a projection. No amount of philosophizing or musing on the nature of truth is going to change what rankings are supposed to do.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
Okay, be stubborn. You’ll see the way one day. Not everything is as black and white as you think it is, Derek.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
The way rankings are supposed to work is.
It’s black and white, clear as crystal. You STOLE Fizzy Lifting Drinks.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Really? Could you show me that dictionary definition of rankings please?
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
Rankings are supposed to be descriptive, not predictive. I really can’t make it more clear than that. The people that disagree with me – on this – are wrong.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
You keep repeating yourself, but you’re offering nothing to back up your claim other than “I’m right, you’re wrong”. There is no definition.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
Rankings are supposed to be descriptive.
Rankings are supposed to be descriptive.
Rankings are supposed to be descriptive.
His name is Robert Paulson.
His name is Robert Paulson.
I know less about recognizing true fighting talent than George W. Bush does about finding weapons of mass destruction. From now on if I wanna pick a winner I will ask the-gentle-way.
by lowellthehammer on Feb 1, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
They are. Luke ranted about this a little while ago – there’s simply never been any other basis for rankings, ever, in history, in any sport, OTHER than accomplishments inside the ring/cage/wherever.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
And I responded to that statement with a few different combats sports that actually do/have, which he acknowledged.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
I'm interested in reading those, but...
…well, fuck those sports. This is MMA. It’s impossibly easy to cherry pick opponents and weight classes when you’re not in the UFC. All nine fight winning streaks are not created equal.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
See?
“I might be wrong? Well fuck that”.
You need to work on that.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
Those sports did rankings incorrectly
I think there’s a right way and a wrong way to do that. I said fuck THEM for doing it in a stupidly indefensible way.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
Its part of his charm
its his version of the way he-who-shall-not-be-named likes to move the goal posts constantly when he is shown to be wrong…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
I just don’t think “others have been wrong before” is a particularly convincing argument that I’m not right.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
Reply fail perhaps?
I was simply pointing out the fact that you conveniently ignore when you are shown to be wrong, which is what Beer Monster was pointing out in his retort to you.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
Pointing out people doing rankings incorrectly doesn’t make me wrong!
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
Nor was he trying to argue that with the comment in question
"I might be wrong? Well fuck that".
You need to work on that.
You are still wrong about rankings, but that is a separate issue.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
Lets try this again
I read this the about someone the other day:
That makes a ton of sense.
If evidence arises that runs contrary to how you view things, dismiss it. It clearly means nothing.
by lowellthehammer on Jan 30, 2011 12:09 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
How esoteric.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
Again,
if the sample size were larger (i.e. more people within the top-10 or top-15 had fought one-another) then there would be more validity to what you are saying.
As it is, when there is obviously much subjectivity and projection (i.e. hypotheticals) in the rankings, you just look silly refusing to acknowledge the obvious.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
His way is right and your way is wrong, he doesnt want his way to be right, he is right.
Rankings are about who you fight, not potential and excitement factor, ts who you fight, that is the ONLY way to rank fighters.
by Aldo27 on Feb 1, 2011 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So you must not rank most divisions?
Considering that at HW for example no one has more than one common opponent, at least in the UFC, and the one who has none (JDS) is often argued as being the best of the group…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
Plenty of ranking systems have taken that into account in combat sports. Boxing, for example
Got some back-up for that? Genuinely curious, b/c I always thought boxing rankings were based on accomplishment.
Now, there are rankings that are supposed to be used going forward as a predictive tool, I just thought boxing rankings weren’t that way.
Some of the alphabet soup of boxing promotions won’t rank other champions, for one, so they rank others ahead of them based on nothing more than the fact that they won’t fight for their belts. They’ll conveniently bump guys up and down to create fights they can leech sanctioning fees out of. They will sometimes even ignore losses, or give a guy a paper belt to rank them higher. Kickboxing has had the same issues.
Basically anytime a promoter or organization has a hand in the rankings, they’re manipulated.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
And you see this as an equally valid (or at least not invalid) method of ranking people?
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
I’ve never said I did. All I’ve been consistently saying is there is no set definition on how to rank anything in MMA. Even Leland has agreed on this. He feels his/yours/BE’s way is the best. That your prerogative. But it’s not the ONLY way. And something this subjective can never be identified as right or wrong, they’re only opinions based on incomplete data sets.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
All I’ve been consistently saying is there is no set definition on how to rank anything in MMA
True. But that doesn’t make it okay. We should endeavor to fix that problem, not just accept it.
And something this subjective can never be identified as right or wrong
I strongly disagree here. It’s only subject because we allow it to be. It should not be.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
There will never be a complete enough dataset to rank the fighters with any level of fact. So it will always be subjective.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
Unless.....
everyone fought everyone and we compared records at the end.
Seems feasible.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
You and your perfect world fantasies
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 5:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't know how to take that.....
You didn’t get the sarcasm in there, huh?
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
I responded in kind, sir.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 5:17 PM EST up reply actions
We can definitively rank the SF HWs in their tourney at the end
Still doesn’t necessarily tell us who is best, but it is a valid “by the results” ranking that Subo so values.
Almost any other realistic scenario in MMA doesn’t allow that sort of clarity about the rankings.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
That tourney will give us pretty conslusive data
to analysis and create rankings.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
Sure
but the degree of subjectivity in something like that is manageable. The degree your proposing as acceptable isn’t.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
I’m not proposing anything as acceptable or unacceptable. All I’m saying is that there’s more than one way to do this.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
Just add “and some are more wrong than others” to that.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
I think that's a cop out
There’s more than one way to do a ton of stuff, but that doesn’t make all ways equal or correct.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
True.
I sometimes forget that.
If people are ranking by talent then I can see how Diaz can make top but he would have to no higher then 3
Diaz takes Kampann,Alves and Hardy easily
That’s simply not accurate. At all.
I should have satyed out of Cain’s strawberry patch.
by donkeypunch on Feb 1, 2011 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Alves would be arrested for murder after that fight. I fail to see how Diaz even makes it last.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, Diaz might have something for Hardy, but I think he loses the other 2
I should have satyed out of Cain’s strawberry patch.
It's all speculation
But I don’t see ALves having anything for Diaz. The same guy who was knocked out by a wrestler, Fitch?
Alves has looked great knocking out wrestlers in the UFC lately, but I haven’t really seen him against a top striker. So, you can’t say he would hurt Diaz, when Diaz has all the advantages that he has had over the other strikers that everyone said would destroy Diaz.
Diaz doesn’t get knocked out. Maybe once in his career, and that was in the begining of his career like in 2000 or something.
He hardly ever gets rocked. He’s a better technical boxer, with the height and reach advantage, which people need to take into account. He just keeps people outside and plays with their heads.
This is a problem for anyone who calls themselves a striker. Aleves gets murdered in my opinion. Not even close.
After his fight with Daley, we’ll learn alot. If Diaz beats Daley, There’s no question what he would do to most of the so called strikers in the UFC welter weight division.
Alves also looked great against Doomsday
And Doomsday/Diaz would be entertaining.
So Diaz gets TKOed by Jeremy Jackson once but it’s ok, Alves gets TKOed once by the #2 WW on Earth and that means something? Nick wouldn’t be able to walk for a month after fighting Thiago.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
Riiight. And
Did you actually watch the first Alves-Fitch fight? I like how you make it sound it was some spectacular standing KO. Watch Alves’ most recent fight against Howard and tell me that isn’t better than anything Diaz has seen in Strikeforce. Alves would wear his leg out and keep in mind, he wouldn’t have to knock him out. Finishes are great but they don’t tell the entire story.
We might learn something about his striking or his chin
But if Diaz knows what’s good for him he’ll take that fight to the ground, and then we won’t know much more.
P.S. Alves murders Diaz 99/100 times
I should have satyed out of Cain’s strawberry patch.
Again
UFC WW division is a Wrestlers division, so it’s hard to say what guys like ALves and Kampann could do against someone like DIaz.
You can’t say Alves would destroy Diaz if you have no fights to back up your claim. He’s beating wrestlers. Diaz is constantly fighting stand up guys. He outboxed Gomi, he outboxed Cyborg who doesn’t have a terrific MMA record, but you can’t denye his stand up.
And say what you want about KJ Noons, the man has a pro boxing record of 11-2. Nick completely outboxed him, and broke his jaw in the first round.
I think Nick would treat ALves like he did Cyborg.
You really think Noons pro boxing has any bearing on what he does in MMA?
Diaz lost to him once (courtesy of strikes) and had to fought tooth and nail to beat him in the next fight. Yeah he outboxed Gomi but that was after he got knocked on his ass in the first round. Also, Cyborg hit him way too much. Diaz takes just as much if not more than he gives and that’s going to fail him eventually. And as for Alves, Chris Lytle, John Howard and Karo Parisyian aren’t wrestlers. And as for you comparing Cyborg to Alves, really?
huh?
That was a BS call when he lost to KJ and you know it. He lost to a cut. He proved in the second fight who the better fighter was. Tooth and nail? It was unanimous decision, and he broke Kj’s jaw in the first round.
If Nick went in theit and kick boxed Noons and rolled with him on the ground, maybe you could say Noons boxing record didn’t mean anything. But that’s not what happened. They both wanted to prove a point. Who’s the better boxer. I don’t remember either one of them throwing any kicks or going to the ground. I’m sure there were a couple kicks, but nothing really.THey just boxed, and Diaz won the boxing match.
Cyborg hit him way too much? No he kicked him way to much, and none of those kicks or punches had any effect. DIaz only takes alot from fighters he not afraid to get hit by. Cyborg was one fo those fighters.
And GOmi,? Gomi could knock God down if he hit him. The point is, Diaz got back up and outboxed him.
Who cares if it was a BS call?
Noons knocked him down standing and Diaz was not winning up to that point. And even if they were standing the entire time in the second fight, it was still not a boxing match. I shouldn’t even have to explain the difference. There are lot of guys in MMA that boxed professionally. It doesn’t carry much weight because they’re too different sports. Good boxers don’t get it. Diaz gets hit a lot. I don’t care about the effect or if he got rocked. A key aspect to good boxing is defense and movement. He’s not good at either. Don’t mistake a strong chin for good striking defense.
And we saw what happened when he knocked down from GOmi, he ended up winning. BS call.
It was a boxing match. They boxed. So they stand differently to watch from takedowns and kicks, it’s still boxing, buddy. The fundementals are still there. The boxed, and Diaz won. I wouldn’t even give him thjat much credit if he knocked out Noons, anyone can get caught. Diaz out pointed and out classed him in every way.
He didn’t get hit that much by Noons in their second fight. He didn’t get hit that much by Marius. He allows it if he must. And don’t mistake hit or kicked either.
No, not much at all by Noons in the rematch
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
Just like 60 punches per round
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
You realize that those were the most laughably bullshit stats ever posted ever?
You should be using that to argue that strikeforce sucks b/c they obviously lie (or something).
Did you watch Diaz v. Noons?
Either way, saying Diaz didn’t get hit that much in that fight is laughable.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
Lmao,
don’t try to back track because you used a failed statistic. I didn’t say he didn’t get hit. I said he outboxed Noons in every way. And he didn’t get hit nearly as much as Noons click the link I posted for you . The real statistics.
I didn’t say he didn’t get hit.
He didn’t get hit that much by Noons in their second fight.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
THe kid I was responding to
said that Diaz allows himself to get hit too much. I was making a point, that he doesn’t. No more than he gives.
FIrst of all, you need to learn how to read statistics. Diaz threw 130 significant strikes, not Noons, Noons threw 110. And in my estimation, that’s not a lot. Not compared to what Diaz threw. Diaz landed 115 to the head. Noons landed 71.
150 total strikes compared to 139.
Diaz landed 98 head jabs. KJ landed 56.
Again the poster said, he took more hits then he gives. NO
If you stand an box
with a pro boxer, I expect you to get hit. But he boxed a pro boxer by a lot. You can’t denie that.
Dude did you really use compustrike to make a point?
You know no one takes that site seriously.
Those were not the real stats buddy. Everyone complained about that. It was corrected by the Fight metric. Here is the link to the real stats.
http://blog.fightmetric.com/2010/10/diaz-vs-noons-ii-fightmetric-report.html
Someone post the picture for me please. I don’t know how
These have KJ landing 132 punches
So again, Nick didn’t get hit that much?
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
He landed 110 significant ones compared to 130
learn to read statistics
Compustrike admitted their stats for that fight were screwed up. Here’s the fightmetric stats
I’m with you though. Diaz did get tagged a lot in the 2nd fight. He didn’t dominate Noons by any means..
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
Except Alves
outweighs Diaz by 20+ pounds and would bully him standing up. I think that would be a very one-sided fight culminating in Diaz being TKO’d for the first time in ages.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
Alves is easily 35lbs bigger then him, stronger, hits harder and has nasty leg kicks, he could chop down Diaz and knock him out.
Diaz is the better boxer but after seeing what Cyborg did to his legs Alves could chop him in half.
Again, Alves has proven nothing against a top striker to make that assumption
Diaz has moved up to middleweight and beaten guys naturally bigger than him. His boxing skills, height and reach advantage or too much for a short guy like Alves.
What did Cyborg to do his leg? I didn’t see Diaz limping after the fight. He actually said he leg didn’t hurt at all.
He was late to the press conference because the doctor was looking at his leg for a while. It was “jacked up”.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
Well,
I don’t know about that. He said his leg was fine. And I didn’t see him limping at all. And it obviously had no effect on him in the fight.
If his eyeball was hanging from his head
he wouldn’t admit any pain.
I should have satyed out of Cain’s strawberry patch.
Again, no limping,
it didn’t effect him at all in the fight. I just looked through everything and found no reports on his leg being jacked up after the fight. I’d like proof on this. Not saying you’re lying, but would like proof.
It was all over twitter. If you watch the press conference, he doesn’t show up until the very end. He was supposed to go to the hospital but a doc checked him backstage. I can’t provide you an exact quote because I don’t have the time to search through twitter for it. Sorry.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
A lot of fighters have been late to get checked out
and turned out to be fine. Don’t believe those rumor freaks on twitter.
I’m not saying he wasn’t checked. He probably was. But every interview he looked fine. He never limped. Not during the fight or after. There is no indication that was actually hurt. Outside of rumors ofcourse.
And I didn't hear any of these rumors.
Just going by what you say happened on twiiter.
Diaz
himself said the leg kicks hurt.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
Rumor freaks? These are MMA reporters backstage.
Look, you can defend Diaz all you want. I’m not sure what saying his leg wasn’t hurt proves though.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
NO, I'm not saying his leg kicks didn't hurt.
They should hurt after taking those kicks. Someone made a point that it was an indicator of what Alves would do to him. I think I said those kicks had no effect on him during the fight, and wasn’t a big deal. You said his leg was jacked. I wouldn’t say his leg was jacked. And Alves wasn’t able to do anything with his leg kicks against Howard.
Nick himself said the kicks effected him and that it would have messed him up as the fight wore on.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
well then
he’s contradicting himself. Becuase the interview i saw he said, he wasn’t hurt but that he realised he needed to start checking those kicks. He wasn’t worried about them at first thats why he allowed them. But once started checking them, they were fine.
Nick seems like the kind of guy
who contradicts himself.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
by Chris Barton on Feb 1, 2011 6:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It had a big effect.
I saw Cyborg gaining momentum before getting submitted there.
by Charlie Custer on Feb 1, 2011 7:58 PM EST up reply actions
On an up kick
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
ROFL
That is funny.
Umm has Diaz fought anyone of their caliber lately. Ya I can see him taking Hardy, cause hardy was vastly overrated. Kampmann would give him a good fight, possibly fight of the night. I see Diaz winning that by split. ALVES would leg kick DIAZ so damn hard. He would probably dislocate his hip! Diaz doesnt check leg kicks for SHIT! Alves hurts him bad very badly in that fight.
Diaz easily taking Alves is the funniest thing I've read in a very long time.
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
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I want Diaz in the UFC, but I’m not so selfish to ask that he take a paycut or limit his options just to make me happy. Another option I would love to see is for the UFC to release Koscheck – he’s had his two tries at GSP and now he and Fitch serve as bottlenecks at the top of the division. Koscheck has also lost his ability to headline in the UFC but a bout with Diaz would be easily marketable by them and they might even be willing to pay him more in than what he currently gets. It would also clean up some questions. If Koscheck wins then we know Diaz wouldn’t dominate in the UFC. And if Diaz wins then maybe Dana would be compelled to drive a dump truck full of money up to Stockton to get him sign.
Kos/Diaz would be epic. The amount of trash talking alone would be worth the price of admission.
by pud333 on Feb 1, 2011 3:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
its pretty difficult to compare nick to fighters he doesnt fight…
he does look slow, akward, and sluggish at times, but that could be offset by his efficiency in attack and also his toughness and ability to take damage and not even blink…
you can say cyborg is not a very good fighter and nick is not that good cuz cyborb landed some big shots on nick…but i havnt seen any of the top UFC WW guys take shots like nick while coming forward all while staying composed and landing big shots himself…
then how fast he locked that armbar that had cyborg (isnt he black belt in BJJ?) taping immediately…
like they all say styles make fights and cyborg had a good gameplan attacking the leg…if nick would use a gameplan he problay would have taken cyborg down in round 1 and taped him out…
nobody in the WW or even in MMA looks as tuff as nick and to me that is the top quality to have in fighting…
so yeah all those top WW guys in the UFC technically look better but nick is in a zone like no other and the only way to truly know is to have them fight each other…
i def think nick is the “best” WW FIGHTER hands down, on of the best FIGHTERS period, but on paper looks like he should sit around 7,8 WW rank but like i said nick is in a zone that i feel transcends technicalitys all while have really good fighting techniques…
i dont know!!!!!!!
the fight with daley is gonna really prove something – we’ll see!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To be fair, Spencer has never been a Zuffa shill and I don't think that would change within a week
Also, anybody who says a win over Cyborg catapults him into the top 5 is smoking something stronger than Diaz. Put down your crack pipes and step away from the computer.
by truck on Feb 1, 2011 3:26 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I think Alves, GSP, Condit, and Fitch beat Diaz. Kos, not so much. I dont think Hardy or Kamp would beat him. I just know Diaz is a top fighter with great skills who always puts on entertaining fights. Bottom line. Top 10 for sure.
I rank him #1 in exciting fights over the UFC fighters ranked above him, thats for sure.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
I don’t. I think Diaz can beat Condit and Kampmann. That being said… it doesn’t matter. He has to beat them to be considered top give IMO, and he won’t have that opportunity.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Feb 1, 2011 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
But he doesn't have to do anything, Leland!
Rankings are completely subjective! We can put him wherever the fuck we please!
(puts Cerrone at #1 LW – can’t say I’m wrong, it’s subjective!)
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
Let's try the devil's advocate approach here, but USING YOUR OWN WORDS
You have Diaz at #7, correct? Considering he hasn’t beaten any top-10, top-15 or maybe even top-25 opponents in the last 3 years – all stated criteria of yours – how does that not make you a hypocrite with your comments here:
Because it’s not a "who-beats-who in your mind" competition. No rankings system has ever been like that ever.
There’s a right way and a wrong way to do rankings. Putting guys you think would win over guys that have actually accomplished things is the wrong way.
They are. Luke ranted about this a little while ago – there’s simply never been any other basis for rankings, ever, in history, in any sport, OTHER than accomplishments inside the ring/cage/wherever.
Nope. Rankings are supposed to be a reflection, not a projection. No amount of philosophizing or musing on the nature of truth is going to change what rankings are supposed to do.
I could go on, but as is obvious to all, you selectively apply your own criteria to suit your purposes…
Bottom line: MMA rankings are, because of the small sample size involved, inherently subjective.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
At no point did I ever say that Diaz wasn’t top ten, so I fail to see the inconsistency that you’ve claimed to point out.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
How can you fail to see the inconsistency, when its right there in YOUR OWN WORDS
You claim that rankings are not subjective, but are reflective of what has been accomplished. By that criteria, how can you put Diaz at #7, but try to argue elsewhere that Overeem, Fedor, Alvarez, Melendez and the like are undeserving of their rankings?
That is the hypocritical part. I agree with Diaz around 7, but your refute your self.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
I also have Fedor at 7, Overeem at like 9, Alvarez around 6 and Melendez at 3. I really don’t see your point. I think their accomplishments (and the respective divisions) allow for those. Diaz should not go any higher until be beats someone higher ranked, and he can’t do that unless he comes to the UFC. Diaz himself says so.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 1, 2011 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
If Coker called Dana and said I’ll trade you Diaz for Fitch. What do you think Dana would say? =P
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Feb 1, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
Quit calling me, Motherfucker!
I should have satyed out of Cain’s strawberry patch.
by donkeypunch on Feb 1, 2011 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Right after he says:
Are you fucking kidding me? Hell yeah Ill fucking trade!
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Feb 1, 2011 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
this pic shows the real nick diaz
]
dana white follows ME on twitter...and i flew to ufc 124 with wanderlei silva.....who the hell are you?
by bubski27 on Feb 1, 2011 3:31 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Can we please stop the whole "fighter vs athlete" mess?
That argument is so tiring. Who cares if Diaz “fights” or is a “fighter”? Fine, he’s a “fighter” with garbage wrestling and striking defense. I give the guy all the respect in the world but could he please beat somebody worth something before you dub him the “People’s Champ”? Those you of thinking he would beat Fitch and Alves are high off your ass and that goes for Condit and Kampmann. Competition matters. Cyborg has more losses than a lot of guys have fights.
This won't be news to anybody, but rankings are tricky.
I enjoy hashing them out in my own mind, but I think that a lot of people end up putting too much emphasis on them. The related issue of questions that remain unanswered for many fighters is something that we should wonder about, of course, but I don’t see the rankings of fighters actually being a huge historical factor. Granted, that sounds funny, since that’s what rankings are really geared toward – some sense of the history of a given sport – but I guess I just believe it’s not the right thing to focus on.
by Brent Ducharme on Feb 1, 2011 3:38 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I wouldn't rank Nick in the top five as long as he continues to play in the shallow SF pool.
I would love to see Diaz/Kos, Diaz/Avles, Diaz/Fitch, Diaz/Penn, Diaz/Condit, etc. But I’m going to have to settle for Diaz/Daley or Diaz/Miller. That’s fine with me. I like watching this kid fight. He just can’t be ranked top five.
Point is Diaz isnt a top 5 WW, he isnt top 5, and I dont see him beating any of the top 5 UFC WW.
He wont fight Jake, GSp, Kos and Fitch all beat him and I think Alves would as well, and even BJ, Condit, they would be the guys Diaz can beat, he is top 10, not top 5.
If he beats Daley people will claim he is top 2 or 3 which is laughable but it will happen, but thats the only legit top 10 WW he will fight, a guy who has no ground game and Kos just beat.
Diaz to truly be called one of the best has to go to the UFC, as do most SF fighters.
Diaz, Gilbert, Jacare need to be in the UFC right now, they have nobody to fight after one more fight, GIlbert has Crusher, Diaz Daley and Jacare/Miller, after that then what? Le? Tyron? Fancy Pants? Any of these strike you as big time huge fights? None are top 10 ranked guys, LHW and HW SF has some fights so they are ok but the other three champs need to be in teh uFC asap.
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned about Diaz,
although I may have missed it, is that he would be very much undersized against the top UFC WWs.
I would love to see Diaz vs any of Condit, Kampmann or BJ, but I think any of the UFC WWs with a strong MMA Wrestling base (i.e. good sub defense as well) would have their way with him under the Unified Rules.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 4:07 PM EST reply actions
I do enjoy him
I just don’t think he ranks in the top 5.
I should have satyed out of Cain’s strawberry patch.
He's much as much a gift to MMA as Jersey Shore is quality television.
It’s all subjective.
Not a good comparison.
Diaz/Gomi is an all time MMA classic, ‘Jersey Shore’ is a scar on humanity.
Learn JiuJitsu, it's fun.
That depends on what you consider a classic.
I’m not big on that fight because for all it’s excitement, Gomi looked like shit. Anybody that had seen him fight before would agree with me. However, all the credit in the word to Nick for the win and that sick finish. That may be because I’m a Gomi fan. I respect Diaz for what he’s done and what he can do but I’m not a fan of his style, his attitude, or his mentality.
And for all his bird-flicking and awkward machismo, he’s pretty damn close to Jersey Shore.
I said close, didn't say he was.
And you’re right, he does back it up. I never said he didn’t.
not really...
“I’ll fight anyone” – Nick Diaz
Mayhem raises hand
crickets
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
All too true...
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
by The American Ronin on Feb 1, 2011 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
All this talk of rankings has me realizing how much I really don't care about rankings.
There are no absolutes in mma. And there are especially no absolutes in between organizations considering they don’t fight each other and rarely fight the same competition.
This reminds of college football fans arguing whether SEC is better than Big 12 or what school would get destroyed in what conference.
Unless a fight actually happens the rankings are purely speculative. Take them or leave them.
"Progress lies not in enhancing what is, but in advancing toward what will be." - Kahlil Gibran
“Our panel as a whole has Diaz ranked at #7 in a tie with Martin Kampmann.”
Your panel is fucking smart (excuse the language). All week I’ve been seeing people saying, Nick Diaz is number 2. When one of my friends finally asked me what I thought I said 8 or 9 to be honest but 7 is just as good. Nick Diaz has never beaten a top 10 (except Gomi at the time but it’ll always go down as a NC. And it was at lightweight.). And against Cyborg he was eating A LOT of shots and if his chin wasn’t so damn solid he probably would have lost that fight. And I hate to say it but Cyborg has never even seen a picture of the top 10, let alone be apart of it.
I’m not trying to hate on Diaz, even though I dislike him, but he’s just not top 5 and he never will be unless he goes to the ufc, who has the majority of the best WWs in the world. He’s on an impressive streak but his most impressive win in that streak is KJ Noons or an old Frank Shamrock.
Subbing Mach was pretty good
That’s not easy to do. Especially the way he did it.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
Don't have time to read it right now, but this was hilarious already
Before you go arguing that MMA and team sports shouldn’t be compared, just go with it
basically
Before you try and be rational, don’t.
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
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