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Gilbert Melendez, 'Cyborg' Santos and the New Face of Strikeforce

PHOENIX - AUGUST 13:  Miesha Tate celebrates after defeating Hitomi Akano of Japan in the Strikeforce Women's Welterweight Tournament Championship bout at Dodge Theater on August 13 2010 in Phoenix Arizona.  (Photo by Christian Petersen/Getty Images)

At the start of Miesha Tate's beef with Ronda Rousey, Tate said something that made no sense to me when she insisted that women's MMA doesn't need a "face" to thrive. That's an incredible detachment from the reality of combat sports. I'd actually argue that it's much more "unhealthy" to not have one or two superstars who can bring extra attention to the sport and whose starpower can rub off somewhat when someone beats them.

Muhammad Ali, Mike Tyson, Oscar De La Hoya, Manny Pacquiao, Chuck Liddell, Brock Lesnar, Georges St. Pierre...etc. Those men were all the face of their sport at one time or another and without them that sport would have been profoundly less healthy.

This isn't specific to just a discussion on WMMA or MMA in general. Strikeforce will need one or two fighters who emerge as their top draws. Previously we saw Gina Carano, Fedor Emelianenko and Nick Diaz serve as the top drawing stars in the promotion. They were more than simply fighters, Gina was a rare combination of skills and mass appeal, Fedor had a tremendous run and incredible mystique, Diaz is one of the most exciting fighters on earth to watch and is such a loose cannon that it makes it hard to watch to see what happens.

So, knowing that the promotion isn't going anywhere any time soon, what happens now?

Despite Stephen Espinoza claiming Gina will return, it looks somewhat unlikely. And even if she does, it's unlikely to be a full-time return. Diaz has been poached by the UFC, same with Alistair Overeem. And Fedor is off in M-1.

After the jump we'll look through the current options to be the face of Strikeforce...

SBN coverage of Strikeforce: Melendez vs. Masvidal

Star-divide

Gilbert Melendez - Melendez is a guy they seem to be positioning as the promotion's top star. He's the #2 lightweight in the world (according to the USA Today / SB Nation Consensus Rankings) and having that level of talent makes him a natural choice. Unfortunately, there isn't exactly a line of challengers that can create much buzz for a Melendez fight. A third fight with Josh Thomson may happen down the road, tonight's fight with Jorge Masvidal represents the only Strikeforce top 25 fighter that Melendez hasn't yet beat. Melendez vs. KJ Noons may be a fight down the road that could get a little attention since Noons can talk a little bit, but I have my doubts about Gil emerging as a superstar.

Cristiane Santos - "Cyborg" was expected to emerge as a big star following her dismantling of Gina Carano. Unfortunately, Strikeforce has only been able to find her three fights in the almost 28 months since that win. There is no depth at 145 pounds, especially if Rousey drops to 135 as expected. It's hard to have Cyborg get any bigger as a star without fights to make it happen.

Miesha Tate - If she's more worried about facing challengers she feels have "earned it" than taking fights that people want to see? I don't know how far she can go. Still, she has a look that gets her attention and the skills to deliver the goods in the cage. I have my doubts, but she could eventually turn into a real star.

Ronda Rousey - I hate pointing this out, but Ronda was on two of the three least watched Strikeforce events in the history of the Showtime deal. She's going to need some very good positioning on the 2012 cards to break out into the mainstream. It'll take a lot of effort an more than putting her on the Showtime Extreme undercard broadcasts.

Luke Rockhold - Now we're talkin'. Rockhold has skills and charisma to spare, he fights a fairly exciting style and, in a rematch with Jacare or a fight with Tim Kennedy, has a pair of legitimate fights that can be made. Unfortunately, he has to face Keith Jardine first. Maybe beating a former UFC fighter will do him some good, but it still feels like a waste of time. Still, Rockhold has a good chance of being a breakout star for the promotion.

Muhammad Lawal - Lawal has the flash, the skills the willingness to be special and the ability to talk a big game. Should he work his way back to the light heavyweight title, he is probably the guy (along with Rockhold) to be something more than "just another guy" on the Strikeforce roster.

2012 will be an interesting year for Strikeforce and the ability to create stars may be the make or break factor for their long time future.

Update: Since Miesha saw fit to call me an idiot on Twitter and claim that she never said WMMA didn't need a face. I'll just throw these up:

"@FIGHTCHIX: Is Ronda Rousey The Face of Women's MMA?MMA News & Latest ... http://t.co/EEELdRUM" I say there is no "Face to WMMA" anymore!
Nov 19 via Twitter for iPhoneFavoriteRetweetReply

Im tired of ever1 searching 4 the "face of WMMA" it's a bunch of BS we are all faces of WMMA, men's MMA doesn't need it & we don't either
Nov 19 via Twitter for iPhoneFavoriteRetweetReply

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“if women’s MMA needs a “face” that it means that the sport will never make it."

I’ve previously read (probably on BE somewhere) that the key to expanding MMA is promoting brands not stars. That’s how the WWF got so big in the late 80s and early 90s. Brands are more reliable than stars as they can’t get injured and so on. That could be more she means when she says women’s MMA doesn’t need a face.

by Bill P. on Dec 17, 2011 3:17 PM EST reply actions  

They promoted the hell out of Hulk Hogan. His name was as big as the brand at the time. Even now, he’s one of the most recognizable faces in the world.

I agree with you otherwise, but promoting the brand over stars has serious limitations.

by JasonAmadi on Dec 17, 2011 3:26 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Hogan was the key to the WWF’s success, then in the next boom period it was Steve Austin, Austin’s starpower was able to rub off on guys like Mick Foley, The Rock..etc.

Memphis was built around Jerry Lawler, Ric Flair was what made the NWA must-see..etc.

If “the brand” really sold that well then we would have seen the UFC take such a huge dip in overall PPV buys when their biggest stars got hurt.

Yes, you want the brand to be stable, but you need stars to sell.

Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 17, 2011 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I hate the WWE comparisons. WWE can plan exactly what they are going to do with their players a year in advance, even more, and direct the outcome. You can’t do that in MMA. The approach is completely different. Yes, you can tell a story with your fighters but you can’t direct their fights or even the quality of their fights. It’s in their hands from there. That’s why you make it rain as much as you can and as long as you can when a Brock Lesnar or Nick Diaz comes along or someone dominant like Anderson Silva has a run. If the cards fall right they can have a huge star in Ronda, I think. I think the build for a fight between her and Cyborg could be intense and if she gets Cyborg to tap she hits the stratosphere and WMMA reaches a new level. The only way it’s similar to WWE is building the rivalry. But, that’s true in all of sports. Those two fighters have to deliver to get the brand of Strikeforce’s WMMA to the next level.

It's that the world is basically a forced labor camp from which the workers, perfectly innocent, are led forth by lottery, a few each day, to be executed.
I don't think that's just the way I see it. I think that's the way it is. Are there alternative views? Yes. Will any of them stand close scrutiny? No.

by memitim on Dec 17, 2011 4:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

SOOOO true

You don’t have to be an elitist or anti-pro wrestling to see the limitations of the MMA/Pro Wrestling comparison. Keep in mind that a wrestler is on a tour. Imagine Urijah Faber having to do 200 nights over the course of the year.

The promotional model that makes sense is still boxing, although the UFC has clearly seen the deficits in that model as well. What White and company have done on the best cards is to create legitimate and interesting narratives that can be hyped over the course of a two to three months. I will admit to a bit of old-fashioned monster movie excitement when I first saw the Lesnar/Overeem poster (with the stats) back in November.

I think the unpredictability of the fighter’s lives – health being the X-factor – makes MMA MORE interesting to me than pro wrestling was to me as a kid. The legitimacy of a the Evans/Jones feud (betrayed allegiances; the “dark-side” nature of Jones); the angst of Nick Diaz; the ageless warrior (Henderson); the sad sunsets (Randy Couture, Matt Hughes, BJ Penn); the heroic comeback (GSP ???).. these are great stories, and they are made better by the fact that they are real and not contrived.

The trick will be finding how Strikeforce fits into this. I for one am stumped, but If I had to wager I’d put my money behind a consolidated women’s promotion I think they can put that together in two years I love the idea because they won’t be trying to go from zero to 60 overnight (like the WNBA). There will be an infrastructure there and the brand can de-volve the men’s ranks while building the female ranks. This will allow WMMA to become centralized with a championship complement that can be fans can get behind. If the experiment works, then in 5 years, the UFC can absorb the women’s ranks and call those women UFC champions. It it doesn’t work, at least there will still be a scaleable business for WMMA Much depends on whether female viewership goes up and males will accept it en masse.That is not something the UFC can “make” happen That is a cultural thing. But I think WMMA has a better shot than most most male-dominated sports, including boxing.

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
Mohandas Gandhi

"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses - behind the lines, in the gym, and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
Muhammad Ali

"If MMA is like dog fighting, those are some pretty fucking smart dogs."

"I don’t want to lick any butt."
GSP

by jackbox on Dec 17, 2011 7:27 PM EST up reply actions  

The whole Ronda Rousey is the Gina is at this point silly and ignores the reasons Gina was popular to begin with. Gina was popular because of the novelty that shewas the first female MMA fighter people had any idea about and she was attractive.

On August 15 2009 Gina got exposed, her career ended and so did the novelty. Ronda IMO cannot recreate that novelty. She won’t IMO reach Carano level popularity.

by jdark on Dec 17, 2011 9:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

With the talent, personality and looks Rousey has she can be bigger than Carano. She’s a completely different animal.

It's that the world is basically a forced labor camp from which the workers, perfectly innocent, are led forth by lottery, a few each day, to be executed.
I don't think that's just the way I see it. I think that's the way it is. Are there alternative views? Yes. Will any of them stand close scrutiny? No.

by memitim on Dec 17, 2011 9:56 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I like that comparison, but a better comparison of promoting a brand and not a star, is the NFL or NBA.

by Dalton Jones on Dec 17, 2011 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

2 Words

Scott Coker. The man is a cult of personality.

by CallMeDaddy on Dec 17, 2011 3:19 PM EST reply actions  

Scott Coker Looks like Kuato...


“You are what you do. A man is defined by his actions, not his memory.”

The Internets: Where there are no girls and men become children.

by Unabomberman on Dec 17, 2011 5:12 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

kuato had tons of followers on Mars.

Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
----------------------------
K1 Level Predictions Team 2011 BE Cilvil War Champions!
----------------------------

by Snatchl on Dec 17, 2011 8:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Nice

How that man got so far in promoting is beyond me

by Cunny on Dec 17, 2011 6:13 PM EST up reply actions  

It breaks my heart

To see guys like Gil, Rockhold and King Mo being wasted in Strikeforce.

‎"Everyone has a plan until they’ve been hit."
~ Joe Lewis

http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/

by Worldisart on Dec 17, 2011 3:20 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

Melendez

The potential fights outlined above for Gil only make it that much more obvious that he needs to be in the UFC. I know Dana has said Melendez stays in SF for now, but since when does Dana’s word meant anything? I’ve lost count of how many times he has said one thing and done something completely different.

I find it hard to believe that Zuffa would squander the prime of Gil’s career on fight with Noons and a Thompson rubber match. He would obviously be much better served fighting in the UFC against Edgar, Bendo, Cerrone, Maynard, et al.

Like my post? Well, follow me on Twitter anyways. @LenBarson

by LenBarson on Dec 17, 2011 3:21 PM EST reply actions  

Faces only last so long....

Particularly in a sport like MMA, where even the best fighter in the world can lose in a single punch, it’s hard to put all your eggs in a single basket and and expect that to be a good long term strategy.

Zuffa has known that since they started. After watching what happend with the attempt to make Vitor Belfort the face of the sport, they knew you had to promote the sport first, and the stars second. Even knowing that though, you can still see the effects of having their biggest stars – Ortiz, Liddell and Couture – fall by the wayside. GSP has kept up a certain level of success since the upset loss to Serra, but consistent winning has come at the cost of the excitement that helped to make him so popular in the first place.

Even someone like Lesnar, who seemed like he would be a huge star for years to come, fell off the wagon with a bad win and a worse loss.

You just can’t build a promotion around a single star because, when they lose, and they will lose, this is not like pro wrestling where you can pick the guy to get the star power to rub off on by beating THE MAN. Just look at Frankie Edgar – beat one of the biggest and most popular stars in the sport, and no casual fans care in the least.

So, all that being said, market every single fighter on your list as the FACES of Strikeforce, and that way when one loses, chances are a couple of others are still winning, and having that egg crack doesn’t ruin your omlete.

by McEwen on Dec 17, 2011 3:36 PM EST reply actions  

It’s not about “building the promotion around a single star”

It’s about the reality that you have to have stars to sell events, and you have to sell events to stick around long-term.

And this isn’t about “promoting” anyone as anything. It takes more than telling people someone is great, it takes them having the right fights and style to make it happen.

Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 17, 2011 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree
Particularly in a sport like MMA, where even the best fighter in the world can lose in a single punch, it’s hard to put all your eggs in a single basket and and expect that to be a good long term strategy.

There is a reason why we critique cards on these forums, and I think it is a great thing. The nature of a UFC cards provides for many possibilities. How often has the main event sucked and everyone got excited about great matches lower on the card… or even the undercard? The big MMA promotions (PRIDE, UFC, WEC) have always understood this. A fight card should be an event. The best ones are ones that we get excited about head of time (“stacked” cards). Individual matches or personalities I believe are secondary. Just because I came for the high-wire act doesn’t mean I am not interested in seeing ten clown get out of a tiny car.

I do think moments make a statement. Pettis’ off-the-cage kick vs. Bendo is a lot more memorable than JDS’s victory over Cain. Major mainstream outlets picked that up and ran with it for nearly an entire news cycle. (I think the UFC didn’t do nearly enough with that footage. Probably because it was a WEC event, I imagine).

Personalities do matter. Lesnar’s fame, regardless of his chances in the fight (which I think are slim) will boost Overeem’s profile, especially if he wins in a decisive manner. But I bet the fight we will be talking about the next day will be Cowboy/Diaz. The UFC’s balanced approach is smart. And I think it will only get smarter as time goes on.

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
Mohandas Gandhi

"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses - behind the lines, in the gym, and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
Muhammad Ali

"If MMA is like dog fighting, those are some pretty fucking smart dogs."

"I don’t want to lick any butt."
GSP

by jackbox on Dec 17, 2011 7:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Melendez.....

Doesn’t need to be “positioned” to be a star, he already is one! He’s a stud!

by Taiter on Dec 17, 2011 3:44 PM EST reply actions  

Star doesn’t mean “good.”

in his last three fights, he’s had ONE that did what would be considered good viewership and that was in part due to Diaz fighting in the main event of that card. His fight with Aoki was part of what killed the ratings on that show (not that it’s Gil’s fault, but that’s not a starmaking performance) and rematch with Thomson did 341,000 viewers on Showtime…now for perspective, the top 5 Showtime ratings for Strikeforce all did well over 500,000.

Add that he hasn’t been seen a lot to the fact that he’s fought sporadically at best and no…I don’t think it’s safe to say he’s a star.

Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 17, 2011 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Womens sports in general are extremely unpopular compared to mens sports.

They should not be looking at some kind of equality with the male version of the sport, just make it relatively popular compared to other female sports.

I don’t think that is that unlikely, they could easily rival a few female sports, I’ve tried to watch the WNBA before and it is just awful. WMMA is not very interesting even to me, but I think it could have a niche somewhere.

It's just a world, it's just a life.

by DirtyML on Dec 17, 2011 3:53 PM EST reply actions  

What I long for is that WMMA would be comparable to "W-Tennis."

But “W-Tennis” doesn’t just shine on its own but rather it is just coupled with the men’s and that’s that. It is a tradition, already, brought on by the format of the tournaments themselves and nobody expects anything else by now; the athletes are well paid to boot—extra monies if the girl is hot and very much into selling her image, just like in everywhere else.

It ain’t perfect, but it ain’t that bad. There’s plenty of talented girls competing and they can make a decent living doing what they love.

The Internets: Where there are no girls and men become children.

by Unabomberman on Dec 17, 2011 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Women watch NFL but they won't watch W-NFL (if it existed)

I don’t think that would be true with WMMA. I think women and girls will gravitate to WMMA because of the “girls kick ass” culture that has developed in the years since KIll Bill. If you’ve ever been to a roller derby match you know the appeal of women’s violence. It is a different kind of violence and that’s fine. But it’s organic. WMMA will have to develop along those lines. It will be slower, to be sure. And it will require a male audience. Men are the sports consumers in this culture. But that doesn’t mean that a young high school girl taking TKD after school won’t watch a match between Cyborg and Zoila Gurgel and not see herself there.

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
Mohandas Gandhi

"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses - behind the lines, in the gym, and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
Muhammad Ali

"If MMA is like dog fighting, those are some pretty fucking smart dogs."

"I don’t want to lick any butt."
GSP

by jackbox on Dec 17, 2011 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

My wife, who usually restricts her viewership to GSP or Sexyama fights, got into watching Marloes and Ronda in and out of the cage, and loved the video of Carano and Cyborg chokng out male reporters.

Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
----------------------------
K1 Level Predictions Team 2011 BE Cilvil War Champions!
----------------------------

by Snatchl on Dec 17, 2011 8:19 PM EST up reply actions  

It's Frausto.

Ms. Zoila Frausto.

Her husband is Gorge Frausto. Frausto. Frausto.
.
.
.
Frausto.

The Internets: Where there are no girls and men become children.

by Unabomberman on Dec 17, 2011 8:21 PM EST up reply actions  

He took on her maiden name? Wow.

It's that the world is basically a forced labor camp from which the workers, perfectly innocent, are led forth by lottery, a few each day, to be executed.
I don't think that's just the way I see it. I think that's the way it is. Are there alternative views? Yes. Will any of them stand close scrutiny? No.

by memitim on Dec 17, 2011 9:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

^^Ordinarily I agree on a sheer entertainment/talent level but.

Women’s soccer was pretty interesting, to me at least. I think women’s MMA is progressing. The funny thing is that the pure sporting nature aside, women usually make for the best REAL fights. Straight up fearless agression, throwing all caution to the wind and going for broke.

"I will spread my wings and fly all over you.."

by DayuumHeGotDropped on Dec 17, 2011 4:03 PM EST reply actions  

yeah the women’s world cup was pretty exciting

It's just a world, it's just a life.

by DirtyML on Dec 17, 2011 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

JAPAN!

The Internets: Where there are no girls and men become children.

by Unabomberman on Dec 17, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Pro female MMA fights look like men's amateur fights.

"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe

by pdl on Dec 17, 2011 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

It depends on the fight you watch. But so far you are mostly right.

The Coenen/Tate fight had a solid pace and quality scrambles once it hit the ground; that was hardly an amateur level fight. The Coenen/Carmouche fight was also fairly solid, too. Bellator has had some decent scraps, also.

The Internets: Where there are no girls and men become children.

by Unabomberman on Dec 17, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

At its best, WMMA that I have seen

GREAT ground work, mediocre striking. The chick who become the Wanderlei of WMMA will change a lot of minds.

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
Mohandas Gandhi

"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses - behind the lines, in the gym, and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
Muhammad Ali

"If MMA is like dog fighting, those are some pretty fucking smart dogs."

"I don’t want to lick any butt."
GSP

by jackbox on Dec 17, 2011 7:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t think you can base Rousey’s potential on the ratings from those cards … they were shitty challenger events that Zuffa didn’t bother to promote at all.

I love to hate

by fightlinker on Dec 17, 2011 4:23 PM EST reply actions  

That only means we don't know. Not that she's a sure fire hit.

The Internets: Where there are no girls and men become children.

by Unabomberman on Dec 17, 2011 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

exactly

It means that while she is a great fighter and really exciting…her two great showings weren’t exactly seen by a lot of people.

Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 17, 2011 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

But, she sure is being talked about a lot. Both in the media and among the top fighters. When she is on a big card, the HWGP finale preferably, there will be a lot of buzz and hopefully she delivers.

It's that the world is basically a forced labor camp from which the workers, perfectly innocent, are led forth by lottery, a few each day, to be executed.
I don't think that's just the way I see it. I think that's the way it is. Are there alternative views? Yes. Will any of them stand close scrutiny? No.

by memitim on Dec 17, 2011 5:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I think judging based on how much we’re talking about something is a mistake we all make. UFC 136 should have sold like CRAZY if it were just about fighters, established fans and media talking about how awesome it was going to be. Instead it did 225,000 buys

Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 17, 2011 5:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t know. I think anytime you have a lightweight and featherweight main and co-main you are in some trouble. Even with how anticipated Edgar/Maynard was. The thing is with Ronda is she will be talked about beyond the regular MMA sites, like Carano was. She will get her Maxim spread and be discussed on ESPN. Attractive female sports stars get a certain kind of attention, if they are dominant they become stars. Ronda has the potential to become that kind of star.

It's that the world is basically a forced labor camp from which the workers, perfectly innocent, are led forth by lottery, a few each day, to be executed.
I don't think that's just the way I see it. I think that's the way it is. Are there alternative views? Yes. Will any of them stand close scrutiny? No.

by memitim on Dec 17, 2011 5:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I'm sold on the males listed but the females not so much

There just aren’t enough people there maybe at 135 there is but both nope. I like WMMA my more casual family though not so much they think Cyborg is a dude which makes them even more confused when you tell them that they have the same nickname and all.

Of all the current champions in Striekforce Melendez has the most contenders even if they aren’t top 25. Would love to see him fight Healy and the winner of Noons/Evangilista vs Wilcox/some guy . Everywhere else its a head scratch. This is been a current problem with Strikeforce they put on a show and its like ok whats next becaue they’ve beat everyone.

Twitter @MaZZM
http://www.mazzznet.com/

by MaZZacare on Dec 17, 2011 5:24 PM EST reply actions  

Great comments....

Even those who don’t like WMMA …. you have reasons, and they aren’t sexist. I equate it with folks who don’t like lower weight classes.

Really refreshing. Another indicator of why this community is so awesome!

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
Mohandas Gandhi

"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses - behind the lines, in the gym, and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
Muhammad Ali

"If MMA is like dog fighting, those are some pretty fucking smart dogs."

"I don’t want to lick any butt."
GSP

by jackbox on Dec 17, 2011 8:00 PM EST reply actions  

I don't why people don't like female fights

I get that some of them may be a little amateurish, but they are always entertaining. It seems like the ladies always come into the cage fearless and ready to throw down. They’re usually the most entertaining fights on any card I watch. Some might be a little one sided(Sarah McMann rag dolling that Hawaiian, like a half a dozen times on that ProElite card comes to mind) but so are plenty of male fights. They’re just usually enjoyable to me.

by Warbreezy on Dec 17, 2011 9:02 PM EST reply actions  

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