ProElite's Weekend Blunder Isn't Their Only Problem Moving Forward
It's difficult to remember a time when former UFC heavyweight champion Andrei Arlovski wasn't the butt of a joke or considered a walking punchline. After suffering four consecutive losses, three of them by way of knockout, the adjectives "fierce" and "dangerous" quickly exited our mental definition of the Belarussian, replaced by phrases like "glass-jawed" or "chinny".
Despite the prevalent social convention, at least among MMA fans, to add insult to injury, Arlovski still has appeal to some fans, mainly those hoping for one final glimpse at the knockout artist who was once crowned champion of the world. On Saturday night at the iWireless Center in Moline, Illinois, Arlovski gave fans that small glimpse into the past, brutally knocking out Travis Fulton with a kick to the head with one second left in the fight.
Unfortunately, the preceding fourteen minutes and fifty-eight seconds of the bout proved definitively that Arlovski doesn't possess the killer instinct that once propelled him to the top.
The rest of the card was bizarrely similar, featuring a bevy of boring affairs that had one man screaming at the top of his lungs "You suck!" during Tim Sylvia's clinch-ladden main event showdown with Andreas Kraniotakes. As Sylvia's hand was raised in victory, the man once again let the pipes go, adding another layer of confirmation that the bout did, in fact, suck.
ProElite head T. Jay Thompson wasn't pleased with the event. There wasn't any celebratory handshaking afterwards among ProElite's brass. The event was undoubtedly one of the worst in recent memory, making a strong case for one of the worst in 2011.
The obvious flub of relying on a stable of heavyweights to produce a great event is a mistake that's easy to see, but it's difficult to predict the terrible performances put forth by both Mark Ellis and Reagan Penn. Those issues aren't a part of the macro problem that ProElite needs to solve in order to succeed however.
Obviously, those mistakes need to be avoided in order to succeed on an event-by-event case, but ProElite's progression, while still in its infancy, makes one cringe, mainly due to their antiquated thinking in the face of a changing environment.
One trend that's becoming more prominent with the growth of the UFC and Bellator is the reduced reliance on name recognition to carry regional events. Many smaller promotions use UFC veterans to fill seats, but the unappealing scraps that the UFC is kicking to the curb these days aren't names many fans recognize or want to see.
Promotions like Ringside MMA, W-1, and Championship Fighting Alliance seem to have an understanding of what it takes to succeed regionally. While main event match-ups still run parallel with the idea that a marketable name can bring eyes, there isn't a waste of time or capital trying to fill entire cards with the scraps of other organizations. Prospects are profiled, pitted against one another, and tested, and in many cases -- those prospects are eventually showcased against veteran competition, usually promoted heavily alongside their veteran opponent.
In order to promote within this new environment, talent acquisition is key, and ProElite enlisted Mark Ellis and Reagan Penn as two perceived top-flight talents they could promote. It wasn't a bad beat by any stretch of the imagination as Ellis' wresting pedigree and the history of success that NCAA champions have had in MMA are good indicators that he would be a future star. Penn is the brother of former UFC lightweight champion B.J. Penn, thus he already has a name attached to a successful and popular fighter. Sounds like a recipe for success.
We found out Saturday night that it isn't always the right recipe. Both Penn and Ellis lost, and it's more than likely attributed to their novice status as mixed martial artists and the learning curve of fighting. They'll have time to build themselves into better fighters.
What worries me the most, however, is the heavy reliance on UFC veterans. Kendall Grove, Joe Riggs, Drew McFedries, and Andrei Arlovski all made their way on ProElite's inaugural card, and the second card this past weekend featured Arlovski and Sylvia as the main attractions. Five years ago, I could see the logic, but the amount of money that both Arlovski and Sylvia garner could have bought lower profile veterans and highly-touted prospects.
A change in the aged philosophy that veterans can sell in the regional scene needs to happen with a promotion like ProElite. Titan Fighting Championships could take a hint as well, although they are doing a nice job with Anthony Gutierrez. Blowing a bunch of money on veterans nobody is interested in isn't helping the bottom line. Invest in prospects, promote in regional hotbeds, bring in worthy local talent, and spend some time scouring the landscape of the sport to find talent. If ProElite had done that, perhaps Saturday night's event in Moline wouldn't have been so unbearable to watch.
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It’s a classic case of a promotion using UFC veterans without without building their own talent. As a promotion you have to gauge who people are interested. Maybe a guy who has a ton of talent but for whatever reason didn’t cut it in the UFC, or a UFC veteran who is still relatively young and exciting. Very few people are interested in Sylvia and Arlovski just because they used to be UFC champions.
Yeah, but the problem here is that the environment is shifting. Five years ago, guys the UFC let go could be sold as legitimate fighters. The UFC’s growth and now even bigger size keeps even lower level talent within the UFC still. If a regional promotion gets anyone from a release, it’s normally the bottom of the barrel that most fans have never seen anyways because they were limited to preliminary cards. They have no draw and no appeal.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 7, 2011 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed, but I'm not sure it's the model of using UFC veterans that's the problem
So much as that when things go wrong, they can REALLY go wrong. Marcus Davis’ initial performances in the MFC were entertaining and helped drive additional recognition of the organization, for example. When the UFC veterans in question come off as completely shot fighters, as Arlovski and Sylvia did on Saturday night, it’s difficult to avoid the conclusion that the model itself is the problem. Maybe guys like Davis are the exception that proves the point.
"Denique nullumst iam dictum quod non dictum sit prius."-- Terence
"By doubting we come to inquiry and by inquiry we perceive the truth." -- Abelard
by Patrick Wyman on Nov 7, 2011 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
I think the model is proving that it's so much harder to stay in the UFC than it was 4 years ago.
And regional shows can’t pay the level of purses necessary for fighters to commit to MMA full time.
The average NFL career is around 3 years. We’re now seeing the same level of attrition at the UFC-level.
"It's all in the reflexes" - Jack Burton
by Forbidden Psychological Technology on Nov 7, 2011 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
Marcus Davis could be seen as one of the very last UFC vets with a tiny amount of pull with fans, and even then — he isn’t bringing a large amount of eyes.
The model itself is the problem. The pool has shrunk to a level in which those veterans coming out of the top organizations can’t garner the interest from fans. If ProElite was smart, they’d stick to developing prospects and finding two vets to fight one another to headline the event. Ringside MMA’s last event was the blueprint, and it was wildly successful. It also showcased many of Canada’s best prospects.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 7, 2011 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
That makes sense
Could they sell that model of prospect development to their broadcasting partners at HDNet? All of us here would probably watch top-flight prospects in action, and presumably there’s a way to effectively market that model, but I wonder if that’s too far beyond the pale for broadcasters.
"Denique nullumst iam dictum quod non dictum sit prius."-- Terence
"By doubting we come to inquiry and by inquiry we perceive the truth." -- Abelard
by Patrick Wyman on Nov 7, 2011 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
I think that model has been sold already. MFC, Legacy, and others have followed the model to an extent, although they could do a much better job of it.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 7, 2011 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
It's going to take more than 2 events to build up their own people
The key for ProElite going forward is to find a televised home. HDNet could be part of that equation going forward. Showtime would be an even better destination.
If ProElite can get on Showtime and HDNet and ensure that they can put on 12-20 cards per year. I think they can grow to pre-Zuffa Strikeforce level.
They just need to invest in prospects. And keep expenses in line with revenue.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
They just need to invest in prospects. And keep expenses in line with revenue.
Unless Sylvia and Arlovski are doing ProElite a favor, which there is no way they are, these last two events probably hurt ProElite more than helped them.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 7, 2011 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
Can't say much since I didn't watch this (thankfully) but i'd love to see a gif of that headkick KO
"Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."
The video was posted on Sunday. Search for it on the site.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 7, 2011 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
Will there be a disclosed pay summary?
I admit I don’t know enough about various AC’s and their practices but I do find disclosed pay helpful in gauging whether a promotion seems to know what they’re doing.
"It's all in the reflexes" - Jack Burton
by Forbidden Psychological Technology on Nov 7, 2011 2:16 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I’d be surprised if Illinois released anything. I do know that Monte Cox is a desired manager for a reason, that reason being that he gets premium prices for his fighters, Sylvia being one of them.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 7, 2011 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
All that makes sense. With Sylvia splitting time as a cop, however, it would appear even high-level managrment can't fix everything when you're virtually unmarketable.
"It's all in the reflexes" - Jack Burton
by Forbidden Psychological Technology on Nov 7, 2011 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
Sylvia volunteers once a month as a cop
It’s not a part-time job for him, it’s a hobby. He doesn’t even get paid for it. Bad example there.
Good to know, appreciate the correction.
"It's all in the reflexes" - Jack Burton
by Forbidden Psychological Technology on Nov 8, 2011 10:03 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
They will fix this by contracting more UFC vets... and that will only make things worse.
Visit fiveouncesofpain.com
The worst part of this card,
is that we’ll probably now be subjected to Sylvia/Arlovski III
"Hi. I don't know you." - me
"Cigano punch my face...all the time." - Anderson Silva
yeah exactly
my brain was damaged damaged by how terrible that third fight was.
"Hi. I don't know you." - me
"Cigano punch my face...all the time." - Anderson Silva
by POW on Nov 7, 2011 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
Wasn't as bad as Sylvia v Monson or Arlovski v Werdum
"Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."
Arlovski Werdum was (mercifully) 3 rounds.
"Hi. I don't know you." - me
"Cigano punch my face...all the time." - Anderson Silva
by POW on Nov 7, 2011 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
That fight was so bad. SOOOO Bad.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 7, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
# 3 MMA org?
It has failed in the past, but can a legitimate MMA org be formed (if they had decent leadership and money of course) if someone came in and bought/merged lets say the top 5 North American MMA orgs, behind Zuffa and Bellator. Say ProElite, Titan, MFC, Shark, XFC, and Tachi Palace are all merged together, sort out the bad from the good, bring up the prospects well, squeeze out the last performances from the old vets then kick them to the curb. Can this be viable? I guess, as we’ve seen with other attempts like Affliction, that ownership/leadership is vital, then advertising, marketing and media deals come next.
history repeats
ProElite actually died the first time trying that approach…i.e. buying up all the semi-relevant promotions. It’s not viable if your plan is to establish a #3.
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
No holds barred, no time for move fakin,
Gots to get the loot so I can bring home the bacon - Charlie Brown
It has failed in the past, but can a legitimate MMA org be formed (if they had decent leadership and money of course) if someone came in and bought/merged lets say the top 5 North American MMA orgs, behind Zuffa and Bellator. Say ProElite, Titan, MFC, Shark, XFC, and Tachi Palace are all merged together, sort out the bad from the good, bring up the prospects well, squeeze out the last performances from the old vets then kick them to the curb. Can this be viable?
First off, none of those organizations have exclusive contracts, other than maybe ProElite. That right there means they wouldn’t be competition anytime soon. Furthermore, relying purely on North American-based orgs? No Fedor, no Mamed Khalidov, no one in DREAM at the moment. Plus you’d need a revenue stream beyond live events and HDNet broadcasts. But let’s say they scrape something together. The problem is the level of talent and star power aren’t there. The only weight classes not absolutely dominated by the combination of Zuffa, Bellator, and Dream are Flyweights and some of the women’s divisions. You still need “names” to make other names, and they’d be in short supply. Meanwhile they’d still be competing with everyone else for prospects and would have less to offer (this is why they don’t ask for exclusive contracts, in case a major organization picks up the phone).
There’s still guys out there they could use, maybe pitting “names” against up-and-coming talent, to raise the profile of the prospects when they win or re-establish the veterans when they win, but both should be marketed equally.
-I would say start with some shows designed to be fun (that is, don’t use Ryan “Jon Fitch” Jimmo early on, even if he may be the best LHW available), and do some 8-man tournaments to crown champions ala Bellator. Just don’t do them to crown #1 contenders as well.
-Mix in WMMA, skip the W145 division, and choose women who are marketable (that is, both talented and attractive).
-Try and get any special gimmicks you can. Some examples:
-Ask athletic commissions if it would be okay for fights that end in draws to go an extra round. Many athletic
commissions would agree to that for fights scheduled only scheduled for three rounds. Ask in any case for an absolute
winner to be decided when you still have a draw, or a draw in a title fight. Make it clear that there are no draws in this
promotion.
-If you have a quality card, whether on PPV or HDNet, make it a four-hour broadcast. Four-hours of MMA for $18 with a
combination of names and bright prospects? It’s a better deal than what M-1 is offering at least.
-Exploit the fact you have elite Flyweights. Maybe even do a 16-man Grand Prix with them.
-Maybe rip off Bellator’s video segments where hot ring-girls explain jiu-jitsu moves. It works.
-Branding is essential:
-A letter acronym will not make this promotion stand out. Strikeforce is an example of a great name for an alternative
promotion. MFC, TPF, and TitanFC are not. Shark Fights is better. Think along those lines and come up with something
memorable.
-A slogan like “Tomorrow’s Stars Today” couldn’t hurt.
-Do NOT force your champions to stay with you in perpetuity, even if you have exclusive contracts. If a champion has three successful defenses and is Champion for at least two years they should be allowed to leave at the end of their contract. I know this is counter-intuitive but no up-and-comer should be trying to position themselves as the UFC’s enemy. You want to be an alternative.
-If you are interested in someone who was cut by Zuffa or Bellator, unless they are coming off a win, tell them to get a single win on the indies first (and not against someone with a sub .500 record).
Still probably won’t work, but I suppose it’s not impossible…
Huh?
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 7, 2011 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
Just looked at the picture that goes with the article.
"UFC is so gay, pride is awesome!"
by Hendo_One-Shot on Nov 7, 2011 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, haha… I didn’t even see it until you mentioned this.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 7, 2011 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
The one thing I can say about this event
I truly enjoyed the commentary. The Voice and Trigg sounded like they enjoyed it as much as I did.
I love their brutal honesty
And, I agree, old UFC guys are no way to build an org, definitely seems Bellator figured that out and for the smaller guys, they seem to be a good promotion to look at for an idea as to how to succeed by building your own names
So is it safe to say...?
“There is a reason these guy’s aren’t in the UFC anymore” when talking about promoting EX-UFC fighters?
I feel like there is a heavy divide here. There is the side which contains the above mentioned (Marcus Davis and Sean McCorkle should be named also) and then there is the side where the fine-tuning is needed.
I could have gone to this event for free…and even as (what I would consider) a hardcore MMA fan, I had absolutely no desire. Honestly, my best hope was to see someone from here at the event (maybe a lil brown-nosing).
Coming from Des Moines, and where MCC (Midwest Cage Championship) is a very respected organization (didn’t always used to be tho) their promotion is virtually identical to your suggested approach. Our locals are very well known in the community and at the same time…they push the guys they know have a chance as well as a desire.
MCC produced Jeremy Stephens, Josh Neer, TJ O’Brien, Joe Brammer (didn’t work out too well for him) and Michael Johnson to name a couple. MCC has never had an EX-UFC fighter, unless they started with MCC.
This approach has worked gangbusters for them for sure.
On a very local level, this can work great. If the organization has no desire to expand and simply wants to make money in that local market with gyms surrounding it, all the power to them. It can work tremendously well.
For promotions looking to expand, however, it isn’t something that can bring the kind of eyes MCC would need to get the kind of capital together they need. MCC does a solid job, although some of the local managers in the regional have done a poor job promoting their fighters in a broader scope. In any case, it would help MCC to bring low-level UFC vets in to challenge their top prospects. It gets more eyes on the product, but the difference between five years ago and today is… promote your prospects more than the UFC vets coming in.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 7, 2011 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
I guess I didn’t go so far as to consider expansion. These guys are very happy building prospects and staying in the comfort zone. Suppose it’s just a case of “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”.
Just seems to me, like ProElite didn’t have any real intention or foresight into building fighters. Instead, it’s just “Here are these EX-UFC fighters, and some other guys from around the area”.
Thanks for the reply, appreciate your point of view.
That’s exactly what it looks like, and the fact that they are being considered for TV and have lofty goals of eventually filling a void that was left when Strikeforce got bought out… I find their approach strange.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 7, 2011 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
This a problem the world of pro wrestling has had since the end of the III Golden Age and with the closings of all major promotions aside from WWE. The con men are the ones who have been conned by their own con. People forget that in wrestling (just let anywhere else) its not about WHO you have on the roster but rather WHAT those people do. Having Sylvia and Arlovski on a card means absolutely dick. Sure you might get some a few fans and sell a few more seats, however overall the product is hurt because while it has ‘name’ talent, they are not competing at a top level and everyone knows these guys best days are behind them.
The same thing happened with WCW in the late 90’s. Instead of looking at the fact that WWE was taking guys who weren’t major draws prior to 1997 (Austin, HHH, Rock, Foley, etc.) and young guns and created a new brand around that, WCW stuck to the ‘names’. Match quality decreased and they were no longer perceived as ‘cool’. Ratings dropped, buy-rates dropped, and so did live attendance. WCW thought that if they ran a Crash TV style like WWE then they would get WWE ratings without fixing the true problem. New blood is needed and a new generation needs to be put forward.
When Pro Elite and other MMA promoter s realize this and decide to drop serious money in the marketing and promoting of fresh fighters rather then making sure guys like Joe Riggs gets a spot on the card or that a Big John appearance in the main event will help fill out the local Bingo hall to capacity then other promotions will start coming up and get some of the buzz Strikeforce gets and will someday perhaps surpass the flagging league.
MMA promoters just like wrestling promoters have a hard time to get out of the past and put too much stock into people based on how much they drew and who they were way back when. Anyone who puts Tim Sylvia on a card in 2011 is completely delusional and no better then the monkey promoters booking Beautiful Bobby Eaton in main-events in 2011.
by Ghost Battousai on Nov 7, 2011 4:29 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Promotions make good or bad decisions.
Going after Ellis&Penn was the right way to go.
An NCAA champ who’s training at maybe the worlds best MMA gym is a no brainer
A guy who is the brother of an all time great is also a no brainer
I hope PE keeps getting these guys fights to develope.
In regards to UFC rejects:
Its about picking up the right ones
A guy like Kendall Grove is a good pick up imo as he’s usually exciting in triumph or tragedy and he draws at their Hawaiian homebase.
Picking up Sylvia was the wrong thing to do
And putting on a televised card with 6 HW bouts is probably their biggest mistake yet.
I hope TJ learns from it
Oy vey, pro wrestling references. Look, if we’re gonna go there, ProElite 2.0 isn’t like WCW. Its more like some regional indie fed that does decent business filling a bingo hall with the RnR Express. And there’s a hundred of these promotions out there. Promote “fresh faces” and no one cares about them. Then you only make money if you just promote it as simply cage fighting, and then you might as well be running amateur events with a billion meaningless belts you have no intention to offer defenses of in the future. There’s a hundred of those promotions out there too.
by VirtualBalboa on Nov 7, 2011 5:26 PM EST up reply actions

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