UFC on Versus 6: In Defense of the Anthony Johnson vs. Charlie Brenneman Stoppage
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 3, 2011 9:39 AM EDT
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We suffered a power outage Thursday night that lasted until Sunday, so I spent yesterday trying to catch up with exactly what happened at UFC on Versus 6. As soon as I saw the stoppage in the Anthony Johnson vs. Charlie Brenneman fight, I knew there would be an overreaction.
Dana White nailed exactly the reason that the stoppage was absolutely fine following the event:
"I agree 100 percent with that stoppage," he said. "He was on crazy legs before the kick to the head happened. And again, there's a fine line between stopped too early and stopped too late, and I'll take stopped too early every time. I thought he was hurt before the kick to the face."
In MMA we don't have a ten count like in boxing. MMA fans talk about the ten count far too often as a huge safety issue but when it is used correctly, the idea is to make sure a fighter is fit to continue before restarting the fight. MMA referees do not have that luxury, they're forced to make immediate calls in the interest of the fighter's safety.
Brenneman's legs were rubber when he stood up just before the kick, he appeared to be using the cage to hold himself up and then got kicked in the face and went down.
Without a tool like a ten count, Mario Yamasaki can't check on Brenneman and make sure his eyes are clear and he is adequately responsive. He has to make a decision in that second and he saw a hurt fighter take a kick to the face and go down.
Almost any referee who see a fighter with his legs gone using the fence or the cage to stay up are ready for any flurry of strikes or single big shot to stop it.
It feels like a phrase I don't say very often, but Yamasaki's call was completely reasonable and correct.
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Correct or not, "reasonable" is the perfect word.
Based on the information he had – and he was in position to maximize what he knew – it was a justified stoppage. It’s not like he stopped it after being out of place or barely paying attention. Yamasaki had a good angle on the action and judged that it needed to be stopped. Sure, a few more punches would have brought more conclusive closure, but I can’t be upset over this.
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by Scott C. Broussard on Oct 3, 2011 9:44 AM EDT reply actions
I originally read that as "concussive closure." I like that better.
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Excellent post
The stoppage was fine. His lights may have come back on before he hit the ground, but that doesn’t negate the fact that his lights were most certainly turned off.
by john_richmond_martin on Oct 3, 2011 9:49 AM EDT reply actions
I watched this fight yesterday on DVR. I knew that the fight was stopped and there were questions about the stoppage. I watched with more detail than normal to see if it was an early stoppage. All the evidence that was needed to stop the fight was there.
Really, Brenneman put himself in the situation to have the fight stopped. While he was on the ground, he looked to be out of it. Then he gets up wobbly and eats an undefended kick to the face that takes him back to the ground.
The right decision was made.
Yes.
The problem is that people were trying to identify a pattern of bad Yamasaki reffing. This stoppage did not fit that imagined pattern…though some of his other actions on the night are questionable.
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Yes, when you compare this fight to Edwards vs Oliveira, you have to wonder how can the same ref take so different approaches when calling the end of a fight… I’d say Yamasaki protected Oliveira because he’s brazilian… I clearly can remember a fight between Paulo Filho and another guy that absolutely raped Paulão and Yamasaki never declared the TKO, eventhough Paulão went full rounds getting GNP’d without defendind the face… whether it is for respect for the fighters he knows or simple preference for brazilian fighters, it’s becoming a part in Yamasaki’s refereing I’m not liking to see…
"I’d say Yamasaki protected Oliveira because he’s brazilian"
Um, what? I watched the Edwards/Oliveira fight and the stoppage wasn’t THAT bad. I do think that he could’ve stopped it a few seconds early, but when Oliveira was on the ground with his one arm trapped he was still conscious, Yamasaki gave him an ample amount of time to do something. Did he give him too much time? Maybe. I personally would’ve stopped the fight since Oliveira took a good number of punches to the face without intelligently defending himself.
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by SentientAndroid on Oct 3, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, all of the circumstances made that a proper stoppage
The fight was very one sided up to that point, Brenneman was wobly and looked almost out on his feet before the kick. He was at least out enough to have no sense of defending the kick.
He ate it flush, and dropped…most guys that drop like that don’t get back up. The fact that he came back around doesn’t change the fact that he was being dominated and Johnson was absolutely ready to land follow up punches.
I mean, in a different context there might be something to make of it.
If Brenneman had been wrecking Johnson, then the first and only time he was hurt was by the head kick…then I think you’d be able to have more of a sense of ‘Brenneman got screwed’…but we saw enough to pretty much know that there was no way he was winning that fight. I mean, never say never…but that fight was pretty clearly defined within the first minute.
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I actually think the kick woke him up. Intelligent Defense was clearly missing when he had one hand holding himself up against the cage with the other hand at his waist letting Johnson try and punt his head.
Yes exactly
If you turn to face your opponent, and you don’t even have the wherewithal to remember you are in a fight and your hands need to up to protect your head, the show is over.
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by hardlyworking on Oct 3, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll always prefer this to the Clay Guida flash knockouts we used to see.
Clay Guida took all those extra beatings when the fight could very well have been stopped. Brenneman was unconscious in the octagon, fight should have been stopped.
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we may not like it but..
We all hate to see a fight stopped prematurely but we’re dealing with human beings here and I don’t think anyone wants to see someone else seriously hurt, I’ll take the premature stop every time.
Agree 100%
If the criterium for staying in a fight is defending yourself intelligently, Mario made the right call. Standing on wobbly legs and staring straight into the shin that is about to blast you into the next century without making any attempt to defend does not constitute intelligent defense.
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by wonderfulspam on Oct 3, 2011 9:56 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Good call or bad call, it's the call I would make if I was the ref...
Although the stoppage might have been a bit early, wathcing the fight live I would have done the same Yamasaki did. I remember watching Brenneman’s legs collapsing when he stood back up and thinking “if I was the refe, one more shot and if you go down I’m calling it” and that’s exactly what Mario did. Brenneman’s body language clearly indicated he was not in position to defend himself and the kick he ate in the face with his hands down pretty much shows for it. Eventhough he fell preparing to defend, pretty much everything that happened seconds before indicated the opposite…
Agreed.
We were discussing this yesterday, and to be honest it seems like the majority of posters on BE thinks that it was an ok stoppage. Obviously there is a vocal minority that disagree though, including Fagan and Gould, but that’s the way she goes I guess.
I understood their points on him landing on his elbows and that he’s still conscious. Depending on how his reaction would have been it’s POSIBLE he could’ve switched over and grabbed a leg out of desperation or blocked whatever Johnson was gonna throw. But Johnson delivered a hellish left kick that probably would’ve knocked out Clay Guida. If Yamasaki didn’t step in, Johnson would’ve punched him through the ring.
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Also, if you watch, he’s moving in to stop it the second the kick lands. He didn’t see how Brenneman landed because he didn’t CARE how Brenneman landed.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 3, 2011 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's a very very very hard call...
Yes, I agree. Yamasaki must have thought “if this guy is going down, I’m calling it quits” after the wobbly legs of Brenneman. To be honest, that’s what I would do, because everything indicated it would just prevent further damage to Brenneman. Too bad that Brenneman’s legit defensive positions came in a little bit too late… when he went to the cage, he appeared to be out while standing, and I would blame the referee if he ignored that fact…
Yep, eating a kick like that and going limp is all you need to see
I love the fights where I guy gets viciously dropped only to come back…but lets not kid ourselves here…the guys reffing those fights are NOT acting in the best interest of the fighter safety.
Edgar vs Maynard 2 and Barry vs Kongo…in hindsight you can say it was right to let it keep going…but I think in terms of health and safety, it was not good for Edgar to be dropped so many times within such a short period of time, regardless of his ability to bounce back…same for Kongo, to a lesser extent, he got dropped, was hit while on his knees and sort of lurched over, then got back up and went limp from ANOTHER shot.
Sure, those were amazing comebacks, and the fighters pulled through…but I legitimately don’t think that was good for either of them to go through.
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by Chris Groves on Oct 3, 2011 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
That's a good point. Hindsight's a bitch.
Those two fights are the examples I always remember in these situations. There was a huge accumulation of damage in these situations and I guess Mario saved Brenneman of receiving more damage.
"No man dies for what he knows to be true. Men die for what they want to be true, for what some terror in their hearts tells them is not true."
Yeah, I don't like that some people love to fire in with
‘Well Kongo won, so clearly it was right to let it go’
That’s not the point…there are plenty of fights then end with ground and pound to a sort of wilting, but conscious opponent that could have been let go until the attacker got tired of punching and the guy who was wilting worked his way out of it.
You go to a certain point…if the body switches off from a standing position then I personally don’t think you should be given a chance to take more shots.
I’m not saying stop it every time someone gets dropped…when a guy gets tagged and stumbles and whatnot, fair enough…but when their legs turn into limp noodles and they more or less utterly collapse…that’s enough
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by Chris Groves on Oct 3, 2011 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Everyone seems so concerned with what MIGHT have happened. “Well, Rumble PROBABLY would have run right in and crushed him, etc etc”. Maybe. Or maybe not. The problem is, we will never know because Brenneman wasnt given a chance to show what COULD have happened. Was he hurt? Hell yes. Was Rumble probably about to squash him like a bug? Most definately, I’d give that about a 97% chance. However, we will never know because Yamasaki stepped in and stopped a fighter from continuing who was aware and preparing to defend himself. Was he out while he was falling to the canvas after the head kick? Yeah probably. Does it matter even remotely? Absolutely not. I felt the same way about Koscheck/Paulo Thiago, and you will never find a bigger Kos detractor then me. Kos was preparing to pull guard when it was stopped. Same with Hendricks/Sadollah. This is the reason that the very best MMA matches cant hold a candle to the very best boxing matches, because of this overprotective, delicate-tea-cup treatment.
I think if you go limp, whether you recover immediately or not
That it is not in the best interest of the health and safety of the fighter to take any further punishment.
If the lights go out they go out…the switch was clearly flipped and you crumbled, that’s as much damage as any human should be taking.
It’s one thing if a guy is wobbly and sort of plots down or does an incoherent shoot in for a takedown…or if a guy is in a bad position and not doing SO well at defending himself…but it’s another thing when a guy’s entire body goes limp and he crumples…that’s not supposed to happen and nobody should be given the chance to take more damage after that…whether they can recover and win or not.
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by Chris Groves on Oct 3, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Why not? Is this chess? If a fighter cant handle it, there’s always spelling bees. No one is making them pursue this line of work, they have freely chosen it knowing the risks. The fact is, at the moment at which Yamasaki stepped in, not 0.5 seconds before, not 2 seconds before, but at THAT moment, Brenneman was fully awake and preparing to defend himself. Who cares how it looked 1.2 seconds before? Is there a “Sliding Stumble Scale”? 3 shuffle steps is ok, but 4 isnt? Its like the old cliche of judging a fight based on how a guy looks afterwards, you cant judge these things on that. Was he awake? Was he defending himself? Then fight on.
Saying that its no wonder why many boxers get those standing 8 counts
in order to receive another punch to the head and end up with dementia pugulistica. So boxing its better because we get a more solid decision and screw the fighters 5 years down the road they are not important just as I am sure who is the winner damit. That is a really low view of the fighters you have man. Regardless of the Intro; the fighters are not Roman gladiators owned by the Praetor who is wishing on this day of celebration to find out who the best of his lot is.
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Brenneman didn’t go limp. He was stunned because he got kicked in the face.
by discoandherpes on Oct 3, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
There were many people that felt the Saul Alvarez vs Alfonso Gomez fight was stopped too early. I don’t think that this “overprotective, delicate-tea cup treatment” is exclusive to MMA and happens in boxing. Also, Frankie Edgar vs Gray Maynard was seen as fight of the year by some MMA fans, and it wasn’t stopped too early even though Maynard constantly dropped Edgar in the first round.
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Edgar was constantly moving to protect himself.
by discoandherpes on Oct 3, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
on a tangent...
I feel like the Alvarez-Gomez fight was some typical boxing bullshit- the promoter’s fighter got a gift of a TKO. Gomez looked like he had the perfect gameplan for Canelo, and was doing pretty good in executing it. That might just be the bitter boxing fan in me though.
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by The Lethal Haze on Oct 3, 2011 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s easy to criticize the Yamasakis for their performance on Saturday, but Mario got this one right.
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by Matthew Goldstein on Oct 3, 2011 10:12 AM EDT reply actions
Agreed
You could almost say it doesn’t matter if Brenneman was KO’d or not, simply that he had ceased to intelligently defend himself.
Well if this was the right call, what about fights like Edgar - Maynard II (to use an example since 136 is coming)?
It’s obviously not exactly the same situation, but Edgar was stumbling so hard he couldn’t even stand straight. I remember back in the day that the Dr. writing for MMA Junkie got flamed for is article arguing from a similar point.
I don’t know, Brenneman would’ve been finished for sure, but to me he has a right to be pissed about this stoppage. He didn’t hit the ground head first and he wasn’t out due to the kick.
"No man dies for what he knows to be true. Men die for what they want to be true, for what some terror in their hearts tells them is not true."
Well this reads kinda like I want Brenneman to get hurt. I was arguing that he has a right to be angry about the stoppage. That’s about it, no Let’s bleed….
"No man dies for what he knows to be true. Men die for what they want to be true, for what some terror in their hearts tells them is not true."
I think all discussions of this type should be prefaced with "since we don't live in a perfect world..."
It’s fine to argue and second-guess because that’s what sports commentary and discussion is made of. But since the world isn’t perfect and since fight officiating must be done in the moment without benefit of replays and so on, I personally won’t get too fired up about an early stoppage due to (T)KO unless I felt the referee wasn’t in a position to make the right call. In this case, Mario was right there, he saw Brenneman eat that kick with no motion to defend himself, saw him fall limp, and made the best call he could in the moment.
The quote from Dana for justification is completely wrong imo.
That ‘s just the easy way out and could really be said for ANY stoppage. If the ref stopped a fight after a jab was thrown you could say that but it doesn’t make it right.
‘Too earlier’ needs to be defined and you really don’t make a strong case for yourself if that’s how you explain your reasoning.
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The quote from Dana for justification is completely wrong imo.
That ‘s just the easy way out and could really be said for ANY stoppage. If the ref stopped a fight after a jab was thrown you could say that but it doesn’t make it right.
‘Too earlier’ needs to be defined and you really don’t make a strong case for yourself if that’s how you explain your reasoning.
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double post, please ignore this comment and see above.
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by joeshowradio on Oct 3, 2011 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
O we still talking about this? It was a good call
rumble put a beating on him .. Rumble done came back stronger after that loss to kos I don’t think he can be stopped right now.. The WW division better watch out
by psychoblack on Oct 3, 2011 11:01 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
AJ on a good night...
Is the most dangerous WW in the world.
by I_Mad on Oct 3, 2011 11:09 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
No kidding
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by Chris Groves on Oct 3, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
This man disagrees:
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by T.C. Engel on Oct 3, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Actually I think the Hardy gif is a pretty good indicator of what would have happened to Brenneman
Hardy doesn’t hit the ground out cold and lands on his elbows in much the same way as Brenneman. Yet he’s put right to sleep by the very next punch.
I am glad to see this kind of stoppage.
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aint no fadin Anthony!
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by SentientAndroid on Oct 3, 2011 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
That was unnecessarily cruel. Rec.
Well, anybody who knows me knows I'm no fan of dictionaries or reference books. They're elitist. Constantly telling us what is or isn't true. Or what did or didn't happen.
Fair call
Brenneman was clearly on rubber legs before he got kicked, so it was not a horrible call. Maybe he wasn’t completely out, but he was seriously wobbled.
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Rec'd
Thanks for being the voice of reason. There was nothing wrong with the stoppage.
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by The Lethal Haze on Oct 3, 2011 10:48 PM EDT reply actions
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