Can Scott Coker Leapfrog the UFC With Strikeforce Heavyweight Tournament?
by Nate Wilcox on Jan 5, 2011 1:01 PM EST
in Strikeforce News
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Yesterday the long rumored cat came out of the bag. Strikeforce re-signed Fedor Emelianenko and very quickly the details of their planned heavyweight tournament began to emerge. We learned the brackets quickly, now some of Strikeforce's plans for resolving the stickier problems involved in pulling it off are beginning to emerge.
The two biggest questions fans had yesterday involved Strikeforce champ Alistair Overeem's participation in the tournament proper. Will his title be at stake in every round of the tournament? If so, will some of the fights be five rounders and others three rounders? Strikeforce CEO Scott Coker spoke to Mike Chiappetta and here's what he is thinking:
Chiappetta: Is this a stand-alone tournament, where the winner is called the Grand Prix champion, or is the winner the Strikeforce heavyweight champion?
Coker: Right now, Alistair Overeem is the Strikeforce heavyweight champion. That's something we can answer tomorrow, because what we're trying to do is clear it with the commissions to allow the fighters to fight more than three rounds outside of the title. The rules of MMA now say a five-round fight has to be a championship fight, and so we're working on that. Hopefully we'll have an answer soon on that.
Then there's Josh Barnett who was denied a license to fight by California after he failed a drug test while applying for a license in 2009. He has not yet been relicensed by that commission. Coker addresses the topic:
Chiappetta: Is there any concern about Josh Barnett getting a license?
Coker: Not at all. We've talked to four athletic commissions that will license him with a clean test. We feel confident that won't be an issue. Keep in mind Josh Barnett went to Sacramento six weeks ago, took a test and was clean. He hasn't fought for a year-and-a-half in America. He still has issues in California, so his fight won't be in California, but Josh has moved on, and we're moving on, too. He's been out of the fight business in America for 18 months. I think he's served his time.
Sherdog has more on Barnett's licensing issues:
...Coker stated that he had contacted multiple state commissions who said that they would license Barnett if the fighter were to furnish a negative drug test, similar to what he gave the CSAC prior to his Dec. 2 hearing.
Two states Barnett likely will not be fighting in, aside from California, are Nevada and New Jersey.
"Nevada isn't on that list," Coker told Sherdog.com. "Let him go appeal to any state that has a commission. Josh has some work to do in California. But he's paid his dues. Let him make a living and go to work. But I don't think he's going to be fighting in California."
Essentially Strikeforce will be venue shopping for Barnett's fights. There are several fighters who are rumored to be unwilling/unable to return to California, but Barnett is the first to openly do this. One of the quirks of a federal system with more than 50 regulatory bodies (counting Canada). In boxing, Antonio Margarito had to fight Manny Pacquiao in Texas because he couldn't get licensed in Nevada after getting caught loading his wraps.
Other news to come out yesterday include Coker saying the April event in Columbus will not include any tournament fights but the following event would. Barring injuries he hopes to complete the tournament by fall of 2011.
This is a bold play by Coker after a bad 2010. If Strikeforce can pull off this tournament in 2011 and a winner emerges having swept this field of contenders, there is a very high likelihood that the Strikeforce champ will emerge as the world's #1 heavyweight.
The sudden collapse of the UFC's heavyweight division, which was briefly the world's best in 2010 for the first time in the promotion's history since 2000, has created a huge opening for Strikeforce.
With injuries to UFC champ Cain Velasquez, contender Shane Carwin, and Brock Lesnar's return up in the air, the field is wide open for Strikeforce to take the lead at heavyweight.
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Can Scott Coker Leapfrog the UFC With Strikeforce Heavyweight Tournament?
No.
I won my fantasy football leauge, so I'm kind of awsome...kind of.
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...
by RolloTomasi on Jan 5, 2011 1:04 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
ref HW's... definitely
i hope dana is sweating, the competition will do MMA good.
'if you don't have humility as a fighter, fighting will bring humility to you...'
Yeah, the talent split is doing great things so far! M-1 is having a great time.
All it is doing right now is helping people get richer by fighting less and causing the problems that inevitably creep up to have more of an impact.
Guillotine.
Winner!
For the Most Completely Wrong Comment of the Day!
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by Luke Thomas on Jan 5, 2011 1:10 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
How are all of these wrong?
M-1 having a great time.
People get richer by fighting less.
Problems that creep up (injuries mainly) having more of an impact.
Guillotine.
I remember this one guy in the UFC who used to fight 5 times a year for $100,000
Then he fought once in 7 years and made 40 billion dollars.
BOOSH
I know this is just the comments section Luke, but if you’re going to speak up and disagree, instead of a one liner that adds no value to the discussion, why not refute his points and back up the argument instead? Coming from the editors of the site, I’d expect more. The comments section is one of the best features of the site to me, but only as long as it provides intelligent discussion, and I’m sure you’d agree. Leading by example is one of many easy ways to keep the site’s quality up there.
I for one would prefer to see all of the top fighters under one roof, and all of the match making possibilities that would present. As a fan of the sport, there’s no denying that that would allow the best fights to happen. I’m sure the fighters would prefer the existence of another competitive promotion though.
by Meeaaat on Jan 5, 2011 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Also, for those interested...
A short writeup on the art of disagreeing – it’s a great read: http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html
One liners like these tend to add next to no value to the discussion.
i thought we’d been through the monopoly stuff before and worked out that it was bullshit for everyone except the ‘one roof’ in question?
However, feel free to disagree I’m not going through all of that again.
'if you don't have humility as a fighter, fighting will bring humility to you...'
Do you really think the additional matchmaking possibilities would be bullshit for the fans?
For the fighters, yes, it’d be a bum deal, at least in the short term – I already said as much. But as a fan, having every matchmaking possibility at the matchmaker’s disposal is as good as it gets. Am I missing something? Is preventing Cain vs. Overeem or Cain vs. Fedor from happening somehow beneficial to fans?
What’s good for the fans isn’t always good for the fighters, on the internet we discuss both sides of it. It’s a touchy subject (although I don’t know why), I mean it’s not like any of our opinions on it matter we are just discussing a topic on the internet.
Right, but speaking solely to the fan in you, is there a reason you wouldn’t want this?
rohedron seems to think that having all of the fighters under one roof is only good for the promotion in question. I disagree. I think it’d be great for the fans too, and wish it were this way already. Wasn’t that one of the main reasons for all of the excitement following the Pride acquisition?
A single promotion MMA still has competition for customers in the form of other options for entertainment. A multiple promotion MMA mostly has competition for the services of fighters. However with the talent split between promotions we end up with less fight possibilities and allow outside occurrences such as injuries to have more impact.
Guillotine.
You’re not alone on this.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 5, 2011 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
no, he's alone with Subo
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jan 5, 2011 8:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
...
I’m…. I’m with Subo on this.
/ducks
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"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Jan 5, 2011 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
Even Dana is wise enough to
acknowledge that other orgs are needed to supplement the UFC…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
"People griping about this matchup need to stop using fight finder as their primary source of MMA information and watch some fights already."
-smoogy2
by The American Ronin on Jan 5, 2011 6:00 PM EST up reply actions
I would love to see the fights I want to see but that’s because deep down when it comes to television entertainment I am a selfish bastard. Now as a person who loves talking about MMA on the internet (maybe as much as actually watching the fights), then I love the variety of hyjinks and stories you get from multiple organizations.
What I would like isn’t one organization but one top organization with the top guys but still have multiple organizations where fighters prove themselves at a high level…. (sort of like what we have now but with Overeem and Melendez in the UFC) :D
I agree completely with your first paragraph. As for your second, I would love to see us do away with all promotions and instead have a fighters association running the sport, much like how the tennis and golf are run by their professional associations. That would be my dream scenario and the best scenario for the sport and the fighters.
yeah
it’s no coincidence that tennis and golf are sports that were founded with a base of middle and upper class players as opposed to boxing and MMA which are not so much from the upper classes.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Lack of competition means stagnant salaries, and stagnant salaries means fewer elite HW athletes pursue MMA as opposed to other sports.
The UFC gave Brock Lesnar a fat contract because he was already popular, and Brock wouldn’t have chosen the UFC over pro-wrestling or other sports without it.
Now think of all the elite 250lb+ athletes intrigued by MMA that don’t have Lesnaresque fame to get a decent offer from the UFC. We’ll never get to see them fight.
well its a good thing that Nate's piece is about the future then isn't it
'if you don't have humility as a fighter, fighting will bring humility to you...'
Maybe not leapfrog, but certainly make a strong number 2.
OHHHHH! OH MY GOODNESS DID YOU SEE THAT?! He ran up the wall like a ninja and landed a high kick! Unbelievable! I've never seen anything like that, it's like something out of a movie!
by lowellthehammer on Jan 5, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
I thought they already are?
I won my fantasy football leauge, so I'm kind of awsome...kind of.
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...
I was just typing up a clarification, haha.
I mean the winner of this tournament isn’t going to be number 1 in the rankings over Cain or JDS IMO, but they would have a solid case for the #2 spot.
OHHHHH! OH MY GOODNESS DID YOU SEE THAT?! He ran up the wall like a ninja and landed a high kick! Unbelievable! I've never seen anything like that, it's like something out of a movie!
by lowellthehammer on Jan 5, 2011 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
Ah I see.
I won my fantasy football leauge, so I'm kind of awsome...kind of.
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...
by RolloTomasi on Jan 5, 2011 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i don't know........
if Fedor wins the tournament I think there’s a big argument to be made that he’s #1. Everyone’s previous objection to that argument was lack of wins against quality opponents, last big win was against _________ way back in ________
etc etc.
If he beats Big Foot, then Reem (or revenges defeat against Werdum) and then the winner from the other side of the bracket, you’d have 3 HUGE wins against top notch opponents in the course of one year for the person who “not so long ago” used to be the consensus #1 HW in the world.
IDK man, either Cain or JDS would have a better claim to the mantle than Fedor.
Like I said, solid #2.
OHHHHH! OH MY GOODNESS DID YOU SEE THAT?! He ran up the wall like a ninja and landed a high kick! Unbelievable! I've never seen anything like that, it's like something out of a movie!
by lowellthehammer on Jan 5, 2011 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
disagree
who can say how things will look in x months?
Also, i agree that some of the permutations for getting through to a final will involve a run of overcoming some very tough top level fighters.
'if you don't have humility as a fighter, fighting will bring humility to you...'
Probably.
But he did, and now here we are.
OHHHHH! OH MY GOODNESS DID YOU SEE THAT?! He ran up the wall like a ninja and landed a high kick! Unbelievable! I've never seen anything like that, it's like something out of a movie!
by lowellthehammer on Jan 5, 2011 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
considering that Brock looks like what he is now
a 5-2 fighter who can’t take a punch and whose best wins are against an aging Randy Couture, a one-round wonder in Shane Carwin — a guy with zero big time wins other than Frank Mir — and Frank Mir, it’s hard to see how beating Brock makes Cain #1.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jan 5, 2011 1:46 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
It's how you win as much as who it's against.
OHHHHH! OH MY GOODNESS DID YOU SEE THAT?! He ran up the wall like a ninja and landed a high kick! Unbelievable! I've never seen anything like that, it's like something out of a movie!
by lowellthehammer on Jan 5, 2011 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
Umm mmmkay, just not for Fedor though right? Or Ubereem. Two HW’s who have dispatched/finished of all their opponents decisively and still people say they havent beaten anyone worth noting. Fedor pretty much destroyed all comers, top 10 or otherwise an peeps still rip on him for not fighting the best there is…
How do you Know where Im at? If you dont Know where Ive been...Understand where Im coming from??
by Chiggs on Jan 5, 2011 1:58 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
yeah fedro "pretty much" destroyed all comers
except for ya know, that guy fab verdoom guy. and overeem well, that man can crush a can thats for sure! bahahah!
"Live fast, die." ~ GG Allin
Ya because one loss in ten fuckin years is the best guage on top of what he’s already accomplished right?? And umm, no on Overeem being a can crusher, especially if your going by ‘how they win as much against who" shit, he just took out 3 of the best K1 fighters ontop of destroying ’cans’ in MMA in no little to no effort…
How do you Know where Im at? If you dont Know where Ive been...Understand where Im coming from??
by Chiggs on Jan 5, 2011 2:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Current Fighters
Neither Fedor nor Overeem have a single win over a current elite heavyweight MMA fighter on their records.
by NO82 on Jan 5, 2011 5:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
does Brock?
Carwin?
Cain?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jan 5, 2011 8:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Pay attention
We’re talking about what happens in the rankings if Fedor wins the tournament.
And they both sucked so bad, that they just horribly struggled against all those ‘cans’. Shit if ya’ll think their both cans, then how the fuck are they fighting cans as well?? Wouldnt they be fighting their ‘peers’ Just dont understand all the hate for them, but yet, as soon as someone hits the UFC their now elite? Half asleep now so starting to ramble no, so guess im done with these convo’s as their getting no where, No getting thru to peeps on this site it seems, even when shits easy to grasp, once again, Meh.
How do you Know where Im at? If you dont Know where Ive been...Understand where Im coming from??
lol at this response. He lost one fight and now all of his other wins and accomplishments become meaningless. such a hater
Ya some people just dont get it I suppose. Guess when your hanging from Dana’s nuts, hard to comprehend much else. People write off Fedor after one loss but still think BROCKLESNAR at 5-2 is the Baddest Man on The Planet..and still think he’s gonna come back stronger? Lolz
How do you Know where Im at? If you dont Know where Ive been...Understand where Im coming from??
Over Nog/CroCop
I would take a 5-2 Lesnar over Herring, Nog, Crocop, Arlovski, and Sylvia any day, which are widely considered the best wins on the almighty Fedor’s record.
Today, of course
but discounting where they were in the rankings WHEN the fights actually took place is, at best, disingenuous…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
"People griping about this matchup need to stop using fight finder as their primary source of MMA information and watch some fights already."
-smoogy2
by The American Ronin on Jan 5, 2011 6:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
yeah when Fedor beat Big Nog 2x
Nog was not just the best at the time, but the best ever. Nog participated in two of the most important MMA HW tournaments ever to be held and then beat the winner of the other — Mark Coleman.
Nog was the man in a way that no one Brock beat ever approached being ever.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jan 5, 2011 8:08 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Not Discounted
I don’t discount the wins based on where they were ranked at the time. However, the sport has evolved to the point that no matter how good they were then, everybody is better now. It is foolish to give a win over most, not all, opponents the same weight as current wins solely based on the rankings. Nogueira is an exception, but Herring, CroCop, Mark Coleman, Gary Goodridge and a whole host of other fighters from the era could never be competitve now. Everyone mentions a “prime” CroCop, but he was less than 6 months removed from the biggest win of his career when he came to the UFC. Within 3 months of that, and after suffering no in-ring damage, he got the shit kicked out of him by Gonzaga.
They got old
Doesnt mean that if we gave them back their youth and undid some of the straight up abuse and beatings they took they wouldnt destroy half of the current new crop of HW.
by Papercut Elbow on Jan 6, 2011 9:31 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly, Nog was without a Doubt, THE best HW and close to P4P king when they fought. As well as Pride being known for having THE best HW’s going, which is why so many ended up there.
Hell Nog, much like Fedor tore thru the competition finishing the majority of his fights with a few decisions; The way it should be when your the best, hell if your considered the best, your always fighting ‘lesser’ competition anyways and they beat them all, finishing majority with subs or ko’s. I dunno how anyone can dispute eithers place, Period. Nor how who wins the tournie will be the concenus #1 HW NOW. Meh.
How do you Know where Im at? If you dont Know where Ive been...Understand where Im coming from??
Ehhh
not to nitpick, but when Nog was the best HW I still think Igor was the best “ever”.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Jan 5, 2011 11:52 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, actually could very well make the arguement for Igor, dude was a scary muthaf*kka no doubt. If he would have kept on an starting cross training more, who knows what woulda been, definetly up there though, shame so many forget about him, some scary power in that dude lol.
How do you Know where Im at? If you dont Know where Ive been...Understand where Im coming from??
Who said that?
We need a campaign for literacy around here. Nobody reads anything they’re responding to.
OHHHHH! OH MY GOODNESS DID YOU SEE THAT?! He ran up the wall like a ninja and landed a high kick! Unbelievable! I've never seen anything like that, it's like something out of a movie!
by lowellthehammer on Jan 5, 2011 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
No he didn't Barnett has better vocabulary.
OHHHHH! OH MY GOODNESS DID YOU SEE THAT?! He ran up the wall like a ninja and landed a high kick! Unbelievable! I've never seen anything like that, it's like something out of a movie!
by lowellthehammer on Jan 5, 2011 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
Dude, no
Do not start that retconning of history stuff that people do. Please.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
I love this stuff.
When someone takes a fighter’s wins and then discounts each win based on so and so. Can you do Fedor next please?
You can do it with anyone
This argument that being in the UFC as a HW makes their champ the defacto #1 is horse shit though…consider, out of the last 5+ years, the UFC has had the #1 ranked HW for what, 6 months? 8 months?
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
"People griping about this matchup need to stop using fight finder as their primary source of MMA information and watch some fights already."
-smoogy2
by The American Ronin on Jan 5, 2011 6:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Can't Completely Disagree
I can’t completely disagree, but you have to admit that most, not all, of the UFC fighters face very tough competition EVERY fight in a manner that hardly any fighters in other organizations are tested on a regular basis.
I agree
The UFC does a far better job of matchmaking than SF does in general, and with the exception of HW have a near monopoly on all of the top talent.
This is just a rare occasion of SF seemingly on track to get it very right, all things considered.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
"People griping about this matchup need to stop using fight finder as their primary source of MMA information and watch some fights already."
-smoogy2
by The American Ronin on Jan 5, 2011 10:42 PM EST up reply actions
I expect the leapfrogging to be a total success
Just like this
It takes a big man to cry. But it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man crying.
by Jaspawokki on Jan 5, 2011 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 11 recs
Best Gif ever
I LOLed
"You stick a microphone in a guy's face and he calls out anybody but the champion, and Joe Silva should fax him a pink slip right then." -- Chael Sonnen.
If only someone could photoshop Vadim Finkelchtein’s head on the girl in blue and Coker’s head on the one in red.
I'm pretty sure the blue one has a penis.
Luke Thomas: If Pro Wrestling had a dick, you'd be the balls!
Kid Nate: ...
Well, it's definately not coker
It takes a big man to cry. But it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man crying.
Yes.
As for as HWs are concerned. Fedor losing and the SF HWs not fighting each other left the opportunity open for the UFC to lay claim to having the number 1 HW when they had their best HWs fight each other. Which they didn’t finish honestly cuz JDS was slightly assed out. So by that same token, the inactivity of the UFC HWs will leave this claim once again open for SF to take w/ this tourney. Especially if a participant of this tourney was at one time, not too long ago, the number 1 HW in the world.
We will all witness Fedor's second loss within this tournament.
I mean he isnt getting past Overeem or maybe even Werdum again. Even if he somehow did…. Arlovski wont try to flying knee him twice. lol. Arlovski would win a rematch.
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Arlovski would get crushed inside the cage by Fedor, and I honestly think Fedor can defeat Werdum a second time around. Overeem… I have doubts there.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jan 5, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
i had a good LOL at your comment. totally baseless, but funny nonetheless.
by BeeTrain on Jan 5, 2011 1:16 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
wasnt really baseless bee train...
I mean Arlovski was dominating the Fedor fight up until he decided to be an idiot. You dont think he can at least come close to doing that again? Not only that but he now that Fedor has been beaten… it helps Arlovski with his somewhat lacking mental game.
You really think that AA has NO chance? Come on…
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Dominating?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-946034240491733723#
It’s hard to even justify a 10-9 based on the 3 minutes before the KO.
They see me rollin...
He was definitely on track to win the round if he had kept that for another 1:40
Fedor hadn’t landed a punch, but who cares, he lost the round 10-0 on the one that did land.
Not afraid to nitpick
Yes dominating....
did I stutter? lol
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Didn't stutter
but you showed an exceedingly poor grasp of what rather simple word means.
I never said that AA has NO chance. I said that your entire post was baseless. Why can’t Fedor get by Overeem? Is Overeem that much a better MMA (not talking K-1) fighter than Fedor? Why can’t Fedor beat Werdum? Did anyone, other than the small minority, think that Werdum would win that fight in the first place? I think Fedor beats Werdum 7-8 out of ten times.
And please, Arlovski’s loss was not based on him being an “idiot.” Fact is, that his chin is very very suspect. I don’t think he could take a Fedor blow to the head, just based on his track record w/being KO’d and all.
His chin isn't really terrible.
It’s the fact that he leaves it high and moves in straight lines all the time. If you look at Arlovski’s KO losses, he wouldn’t be able to hold a tennis ball under his chin in a them since he’s holding his head so high. It doesn’t help that he’s never moving with the punches.
I think a second fight with Fedor goes very similar to the first one. Arlovski ooks good until he gets too comfortable controlling the distance, forgets his fundamentals, and gets clipped by the always opportunistic Russian. Compare how Roach trained Arlovski and GSP. Similar strategies and methods, but one of them is GSfuckingP and the other is… well… Andrei Arlovski.
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by pdl on Jan 5, 2011 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
I know anything is possible in MMA. We all know that. I do think it will be tough for Fedor to end up in the finals. I think he could beat Werdum as well but I wouldnt write off Werdum at all. I mean he proved it.
Overeem is just on a tear right now. Could Fedor win? Yeah but Im sure Overeem has the advantage and is prob the favorite to win this whole thing.
And yeah AA’s chin is DEF suspect… but as long as AA stays crisp and not do anything wild… he will do exactly what he did in the first fight… minus the jaw exposing flying knee.
Those three things make it tough for Fedor. Chances are we will see Fedor with a 2nd loss.
I guess I just didnt realize that my original post was so “funny”
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AA is not Machida
He was not staying out of range of Fedor. Fedor launched bombs 3 or 4 times at AA’s head, missing to one side or the other and not because of great headmovement. AA hasn’t shown anything to make us think he can avoid them for 25 minutes. He got hammered countless times in his 15 minutes against Bigfoot, and was clobbered by Rogers in a few seconds.
You’re imagining an AA that has never existed. Fedor knew exactly what he was doing. Eat a couple meaningless jabs, and eventually he’ll land the haymaker.
I think AA lost some of his fighting spirit that night
He hasnt been so much the same afterwards. People may underestimate AA. He can train and fix a lot of his issues. But i dont think he ever had Fedor in trouble. I think Fedor baited him and he fell for it.
by Papercut Elbow on Jan 6, 2011 9:36 AM EST up reply actions
I think you just beat the guy above for the dumbest comment of the day
Even if he somehow did…. Arlovski wont try to flying knee him twice. lol. Arlovski would win a rematch.
Why is it dumb?
I’d love to see a rematch. I’ve wanted to see it since the first fight ended and AA did a bonehead flying knee. AA looked like a good match-up for Fedor.
I’d put the fight at 40/60.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
How will he beat Fedor? With his leg kicks and his push kick? Because that’s basically all he landed in the first fight.
They see me rollin...
Maybe. I did land some nice punches too, just not as many as it initially looked like. Had he stayed conservative like he had, I think he would have eventually TKO’d him.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
I don’t know, you saw round two of Fedor vs Roger, when Fedor is tired of playing around he just sends your jaw in another dimension. And Arlovsky hasn’t Tko’d anyway in a long time, and Fedor has never been Tko’d, Arlovsky on a 3 fights losing streak lost a decision to Antonio Silva in his last fight…I don’t know.
They see me rollin...
Who knows
I think it’s more of how they match up stylistically more than AA being a better overall fighter than Fedor. That said, Fedor might have forever took AA’s glass jaw and shattered it to Liddel levels.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
Arlovski’s problems I think are more mental than anything else. He has all the right attributes to be a top 5 fighter, but something about that Fedor and Rogers loss just seemed to break him. I really worry about where his head is at after the “Russian Roulette” incident
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
I agree
and he does lose his fundamentals when he gets pressured or feels like he is winning easily which is, again, all mental.
When I see him move straight back I just sigh in disappointment. You’re right, he is absolutely top 10 as far as talent. He is a physical freak.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
I’ll never understand the mental lapse he had against Rogers, who did nothing but bullrushed him. I’d love for him to avenge that loss.
Arlovski has very good boxing and a really solid Sambo base to go with it. He’s one of the bigger, stronger HW’s who has athleticism to go along with it. I’d love for him to get back into the form he was in a few years ago. That performance against Big Foot was very disappointing.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
Knock yourself out:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-946034240491733723#
They see me rollin...
Arvloski managed to keep Fedor at bay for a couple of minutes, but he never really did hit Fedor until the kick that pushed Fedor against the ropes… and then he got knocked out.
I see AA dominating this entirely with counter punching.....
I mean look at the very first punch… it stands Fedor straight up a he took a wobbly step. At another point Fedor lunges in while AA is on the ropes and AA connects with an uppercut. I mean come on now…. Fedor was struggling at the very least.
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I imagine Nick Lembo will have some deep concerns over Barnett as well.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
yeah Sherdog talked to him
won’t be seeing Josh Barnett fighting in Atlantic City any time soon.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Strikeforce: Indian Reservation
Don’t miss it!
OHHHHH! OH MY GOODNESS DID YOU SEE THAT?! He ran up the wall like a ninja and landed a high kick! Unbelievable! I've never seen anything like that, it's like something out of a movie!
by lowellthehammer on Jan 5, 2011 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
Leap the HW division? Maybe. The UFC as a whole? No.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift
by Scott C. Broussard on Jan 5, 2011 1:09 PM EST reply actions
HW division will be owned by Strikeforce...
but I would never trust M-1. If Fedor wins a fight or 2 M-1 will instantly start renegotiated and derail any progress that Strikeforce has made or will make.
Will they though?
What happens if at the end of the tournament one man has obliterated everyone else. They might have the best HW in the division, but at the cost of their other top heavyweights. If Werdum destroys the Reem, then Fedor avenges his loss to Werdum, have they really strengthened the standing of their division? Overeem will look like a guy who is a great kickboxer but can’t beat Werdum, and Werdums win over Fedor will look like a fluke. I’m pretty pumped about this tourney, but at the end of it I feel like at least one of these top heavyweights is going to take a big fall.
Scott C needs to lose some lbs.
if he wants to stick around long enough to see his baby (SF) bloom.
I won my fantasy football leauge, so I'm kind of awsome...kind of.
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...
Coker is a good athlete though
Legitimate Martial arts black belt.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
Hah!
I get it. A fat joke!
Awesome.
Luke Thomas: If Pro Wrestling had a dick, you'd be the balls!
Kid Nate: ...
Not a fat joke.
Truth.
I like Coker as a promoter, I want him to be around for a few more years…..he’s gotten really big lately.
I won my fantasy football leauge, so I'm kind of awsome...kind of.
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...
Coker needs to take some Boxercise classes!
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
by aaronb on Jan 5, 2011 7:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Dana used to teach that
maybe they could hook up?
I won my fantasy football leauge, so I'm kind of awsome...kind of.
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...
They can’t leapfrog the UFC based on one tournament but with the right (i.e. massive) promotion it can certainly get a ton of momentum behind Strikeforce as a viable alternative to the UFC for both fighters and fans.
"You should work for 15 minutes to knock your opponent out, submit him, or improve your position to give yourself the best chance of doing either." - Dan Hardy
Strikeforce will always have problems ruling anything because of its non-exclusive contracts.
What good are all these heavyweights if you never know when they’re going to get in the cage again? For all we know, after this tournament, Overeem could rededicate himself to K1 or miniature golf tournaments or Gossip Girl reruns, and not fight again in Strikeforce for a long time.
Strikeforce will always have problems ruling anything because of its non-exclusive contrac
ts.
I think it’s the non-exclusive contracts that will eventually get Strikeforce even more top talents. Once SF is able to pay comparably (they already do for some fighters) to the UFC and increase exposure for their fighters (a massive CBS card, with subsequent ESPN coverage, could accomplish just that), a lot more elite fighters, who currently feel somewhat subjugated, will jump ship, especially Bellator’s guys. Sponsors, currently paying outrageous fees to the UFC, will also follow suit.
SF’s contracts are fighter friendly meaning every fighter wishes that they could have a contract like it.
Note: Not all SF’s contracts are non-exclusive, however.
Not they aren’t.
Ask joe riggs how friendly his contract was.
The non-exclusive thing is a double edged sword. If you sign a contract with the UFC, they have to give you x fights in y amount of time. When you sign a non-exclusive contract, the promoter will tell you to try and find fights elsewhere, which will not always be for the amount of money you are expecting from that promoter.
That sounds like a Joe Riggs problem
There are other shows all over the place Riggs could have fought in. That he chose not to isn’t really SF’s problem.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
he said that he couldn’t take fights because he was always in negotations with SF that never materialized.
He also had one fight left on his "awesome, fighter friendly contract’ when he was told he had to sign a new contract, receive his pay by selling tickets to a fight on a challengers card, and then get cut and not get the last fight on his super duper awesome contract after the fact.
he is also not the only person that complained publicly last year about SF not giving them fights.
Look at it this way – how many guys voluntarily leave the UFC to go to Strikeforce? The ability to make money in Strikeforce can’t possibly be close to that of the UFC.
Not for most guys at least
I imagine Reem makes more from Strikeforce + DREAM + K-1 than almost anyone in the UFC outside of Lesnar and GSP.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
"People griping about this matchup need to stop using fight finder as their primary source of MMA information and watch some fights already."
-smoogy2
by The American Ronin on Jan 5, 2011 10:48 PM EST up reply actions
My thought has been changing on this recently
SF has the more interesting HW Division right now, the question is if they can actually use it to their advantage. This tournament is a good start but consistency is the issue.
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How can you guys continue to perpetuate the myth that this is a tournament? Coker himself says himself that they hope to finish by next fall. Thats not a tournament, thats an ambitious schedule.
Why not?
Cuz it’s not in one night?
I won my fantasy football leauge, so I'm kind of awsome...kind of.
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...
Yes.
That’s why I’m confused by MRR1’s statement.
Why isn’t the SF tourny a real tournament???
I won my fantasy football leauge, so I'm kind of awsome...kind of.
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...
Correction
Now YOU are the winner for the Most Completely Wrong Comment of the Day!
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
by Luke Thomas on Jan 5, 2011 1:23 PM EST up reply actions 11 recs
you could get quite busy handing out this award today.
"I don't give a flying f**k who you think I look like"
Maybe he should wait till the end of the day.
I have a feeling I’m gonna say some stupid shit soon.
I won my fantasy football leauge, so I'm kind of awsome...kind of.
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...
I like it
Luke should do a daily wrap up of the comments that got the nomination and then give the final winner at the end.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
What’s the prize?
It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.
You Aint gonna make it to 20-1 Rowdy Rod.
Hold off on awarding it to anyone else until Subo comments.
OHHHHH! OH MY GOODNESS DID YOU SEE THAT?! He ran up the wall like a ninja and landed a high kick! Unbelievable! I've never seen anything like that, it's like something out of a movie!
by lowellthehammer on Jan 5, 2011 1:25 PM EST up reply actions 10 recs
subo has gone radio silent until he can come up with a comprehensive plan for wet blanketing these lastest developments.
by smoogy2 on Jan 5, 2011 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
lol
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Jan 5, 2011 2:12 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Fair enough, you all are entitled to your opinions but when I think tournament, I don’t think of an 8 month long collection of fights that should be happening anyway. And lets be honest, they would have to double the amount of non challenger series shows just to make that deadline.
And thats brings us to the other reason this is just hype. What are the chances they get these fighters to do what they want during the course of this year long ‘tournament’? You expect me to believe that the guys they have that are expected to win are going to perform not once, but up to 3 times in one year? Pssh. Mark my words this thing falls apart before the first ‘quarterfinal’.
Depends on who wins it
For example if by the end of this Werdum is Strikeforce champion and dos Santos beats Velasquez then no.
Yes Strikeforce already put on better events than the UFC.
I go by what I enjoy watching the best.
Strikeforce > UFC.
by Bolo Yeung on Jan 5, 2011 1:30 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Well… I’m not sure that’s correct. That’s like saying you prefer the CFL to the NFL. It might be high scoring, but personally, sloppy offense has nothing on skill on both sides of the ball. I’d prefer to watch the best athletes in the world. And yes, I realize that SF’s HW division may be better than UFC’s, but speaking in terms of an overall promotion… no.
No it isn't.
Why do MMA fans love faulty analogies? Why does everyone have to pick a promotion and only like that one? WHY CAN’T WEEEEEEEEEEEE BE FRIENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNDS
OHHHHH! OH MY GOODNESS DID YOU SEE THAT?! He ran up the wall like a ninja and landed a high kick! Unbelievable! I've never seen anything like that, it's like something out of a movie!
by lowellthehammer on Jan 5, 2011 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
How is it a faulty analogy? I compared exciting football to exciting MMA. Higher skill is better than higher excitement. And you don’t have to pick a promotion, but Bolo did, so I threw up a rebuttal. I’ll watch the tourny for sure, but if the UFC had say… a LHW tourny, I’d pick that every time.
Do you mean like
The WEC and UFC merger tourny that failed because of a draw. Or do you mean a full sized, 8 fighter tourney with everyone from Frankie Edgar, Jim Miller, Maynard, Dunham, Florian….omg that would be awesome
But how would a ufc tourny work? The UFC already has well established champs. I think the SF tourny works because their belts don hold that much legitimacy. But I don’t see the UFC putting their champ in a tourny because of the status they have
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- T-Rex
by sitnam90 on Jan 5, 2011 3:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Exclude the current champ and #1 contender, perhaps #2 as well (if clear cut)
And have the tourney to determine the next #1 contender.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
"People griping about this matchup need to stop using fight finder as their primary source of MMA information and watch some fights already."
-smoogy2
by The American Ronin on Jan 5, 2011 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
Recently I have liked the Strikeforce events more
but the Edgar vs. Maynard card was one of the best I’ve seen in years.
by 110 South on Jan 5, 2011 1:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
At least Strikeforce has brawls and 5 second no contests on weird eyepokes
UFC has Cheick Kongo kneeing people in the balls.
Strikeforce> UFC
Charlie Whitehurst is our savior.
by SSreporters on Jan 5, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Not Hating
I don’t want to hate on Strikeforce, but it’s hard to pass up a good old fashioned Kongo nut cracking!
Strikeforce has the worst of luck.
The semis will be Werdum vs. Bigfoot 2 and Arlovski vs. Rogers 2 and then Bigfoot vs Rogers lol
by RobSchneider'sSuccessfulTwin on Jan 5, 2011 1:33 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Don't forget
Bigfoot and Rogers will also get hideously injured in the semifinals leaving SF scrambling for replacements since their replacement fighters are all holding out for better contracts. They will then sign Mark Coleman to fight Ken Shamrock for the finals.
I can only pray
That Mazagatti refs that barnburner and Cecil Peoples and Doc Hamilton are judging.
by RobSchneider'sSuccessfulTwin on Jan 5, 2011 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
Make Your Own Luck
They should have learned by now that you make fights when you get a chance. I hope we get to see Fedor’s ball bat of a right hand test Overeem’s chin, but anything can happen in a fight. If those two lose in the first round, however unlikely it may be, the rest of the tournament is fucked.
I think the winner of this tournament absolutely could leapfrog the UFC Champ,
particularly if the favorites win their fights. If Fedor comes out of this tournament the winner before the end of this year, I don’t see how he doesn’t go back to #1 in the world (and I am not a Fedor fanboy). At that point, his resume both recent and historical would be better than any other HW, especially if Cain has an extended layoff and JDS, for whatever reason, is unavailable to fight him.
If Overeem or Werdum wins, I think it’s more of an argument, but you’d at least have to consider them in the conversation for #1 HW, again based on recent/historical resume.
Cain is #1 now, but hit his resume isn’t jaw-dropping and he’ll be rehabbing through the first two fights of this tournament. If Cain-JDS actually happens, and if Cain wins, that will strengthen his position a lot, but I still think it would be a legitimate debate between he and the tournament winner here.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jan 5, 2011 1:43 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
seriously,
If Reem,Fedor or werdum win they will have a legit claim to #1. Who ever wins this tournament will have a more impressive resume than Jds or cain.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Jan 5, 2011 2:18 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly
If this tournament goes off like Coker wants it too, and if Reem, Werdum, or Fedor win it, they will be the #1 HW in the world…barring a final championship DRAW. And SF will have probably put on more meaningful HW fights in 2011 than UFC.
I think the UFC has unconsciously or blindly gutted the middle and lowerned of their HW division. There are a few top fighters, most of whom are having issues keeping them from fighting, and then a handful of mid tier gatekeepers and few up and comers.
Coker: Right now, Alistair Overeem is the Strikeforce heavyweight champion. That’s something we can answer tomorrow, because what we’re trying to do is clear it with the commissions to allow the fighters to fight more than three rounds outside of the title. The rules of MMA now say a five-round fight has to be a championship fight, and so we’re working on that. Hopefully we’ll have an answer soon on that.
Wait so they are trying to make every tournament fight a 5 round fight?
I got that same impression
That would be interesting. Since the tournament winner would be the SF HW champion, in essence every fight is a title fight.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
Yea but convincing multiple athletic commissions of that is another story. If Overeem is going to have to fight five round fights every time then it would be fair if everyone else had to too. Maybe if a couple of athletic commissions agreed it could open up the door for the UFC to start doing 5 round number one contender bouts too.
IF they can pull this off i will be mightly impressed.
Be interesting to see if they can make normal 5 round fights if anything they say something like for the GP semi finals champ or something If they can pull this off GREAT GOOD FOR THEM I am hype for this already. But this is Strikeforce so thigns will go wrong
Twitter @MaZZM
http://mazznettt.blogspot.com/
This is not a tournament… It’s common sense matchmaking designed around the title with a fucking graphic…
This style of matchmaking should be familiar it happens in the UFC all the time. It’s not a tournament in the classical sense in any way shape or form.
Anyone who claims the winner of these fights could be #1 exposed themselves as knowing very little about mma.
How can you possibly annoint a #1 when the most important base in MMA (wrestling) isnt even properly represented in these fights?
How the fuck can there be a #1 when guys like carwin, brock and cain who best represent the most important this base in the HW division aren’t in the equation?
Forget about the fact that the top guy in the tournament (werdum) is a .500 UFC castoff. Forget the fact that everyone who Fedor made his name off of was already in the UFC and couldnt cut it. Forget the fact that overeem has yet to fight legitimate competition.
The reality is you cant produce a #1 guy when the most important base and aspect of MMA isnt properly represented. Why do you think the UFC produces the best fighters in the world?
Because you have to get through a guantlet with the most robust level of talent and strengths including the most important: mma wrestling.
This is why trying to convince everyone Gilbert should be ranked over Frankie or Maynard didnt work and this is why anyone foolish enough to claim the winner of these fights being #1 is even dumber.
You cant produce a verified #1 outside of the UFC because most to all the relavent talent is in the UFC. The most relevant HW’s of the pride era (except Fedor) were already in the UFC and fizzled up. (nog, crocop, werdum, herring, tim sylvia, etc…)
You have to wonder why none of them are even top 5 in the UFC… yet outside of the UFC these guys are still on top. The only question mark outside the UFC is Overeem because we dont know how good he is. We’ll get a better idea, but we wont know for sure until he’s in the UFC.
It’s not even probable to produce a top contender outside of the UFC. The last guy was Jake Shields and he had to go undefeated in multiple orgs and beat Dan Hendo and ultimately he ended up in the UFC.
It cost over 50 million dollars (elite xc, etc…) to produce a “jake shields”.
These matchups make the production of a top contender outside of the UFC in the HW divsion more likely… and if it’s Overeem the likelihood of him ending up in the UFC is in “Jake Shields” territory.
Regardless, the most important metric here is not who wins the tourney, or who is #1 or not… The most important metric are the ppv #‘s of the semi’s (if overeem/fedor is set) because that # will decide the future of showtime mma.
by mmalogic on Jan 5, 2011 2:30 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
This seems like a complete 180 shift from how you sounded yesterday about this tournament.
Manstruating maybe?
OHHHHH! OH MY GOODNESS DID YOU SEE THAT?! He ran up the wall like a ninja and landed a high kick! Unbelievable! I've never seen anything like that, it's like something out of a movie!
by lowellthehammer on Jan 5, 2011 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
It’s common sense matchmaking… what makes it great is that they have failed over and over to do this so it’s refreshing that they got something done right.
My 1st beef is that this is not really a tournament. It’s good matchmaking with a graphic. In reality though this is better than a “tournament”. My beef isnt with SF because they did the right thing and canceled the actual tournament (werdum rogers, etc…)… it’s with the no nothings jumping up and down for a graphic.
My second beef is all the #1 nonsense talk.
first of all wrestling elite vs bjj/ muay thai elite.
Bjj/thai/kickboxing usally wins. Just because joe rogan says it doesn’t make it true.
Up until frankie pranced his way to a w over bj all but 1 of the ufc belts were held bjj black belts with no college wrestling. Now it sits three wrestlers (cruz,edgar,cain) vs. 4 non wrestlers all bjj black belts. (Aldo,shogun,Anderson, gsp). If its so much better why doesn’t it have the majority?
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Jan 5, 2011 3:48 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
so is Arona
But it was all learned in a bjj/ mma context.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Jan 5, 2011 4:16 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The difference is those who arent wrestlers were tested by wrestlers and continue to be tested by wreslters.
To this day Fedor’s last test against this style was Mark Coleman like 4 years ago. He would get murdered by todays elite mma wrestlers.
who come up short.
Its not the best base for fighting. Sorry. Its the best base to win a decision in America. That’s about it.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Jan 5, 2011 4:30 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
That's just silly
Wrestling uber alles, and Rashad’s going to show it against Rua.
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Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
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by Derek Suboticki on Jan 5, 2011 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
beating shogun after knee surgery is not as impressive as originally thought.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Jan 5, 2011 6:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
maybe
I hope he is as active as he was against T.Silva. I love those dominating wrestlers.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Jan 5, 2011 6:36 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Interesting take on it,
Didn’t even think about the wrestling part. But isn’t Barnett a wrestler? I know his skills are probably not up to par compared to Cain or Carwin.
Catch wrestler.
www.mmalinker.com
by exsanguinator on Jan 5, 2011 3:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
yes catch wrestler what prowrestlers used to be called… but that’s not collegiate wrestling which is what im talking about. Catch Wrestling is a different version of BJJ.
Before there even was all this hype about collegiate wrestling there was
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch_wrestling
Catch wrestling is a style of Folk wrestling that was developed and popularised in the late 19th century by the wrestlers of traveling carnivals who incorporated submission holds, or “hooks”, into their wrestling to increase their effectiveness against their opponents. Catch wrestling derives from a number different styles, the English style of Lancashire Catch-as-Catch-Can Wrestling,1 Irish Collar-and-elbow, Greco Roman Wrestling, styles of the Indian subcontinent such as Pehlwani and Iranian styles such as Varzesh-e Pahlavani.2 The training of some modern submission wrestlers and Mixed martial arts fighters is founded in Catch wrestling.
by Papercut Elbow on Jan 5, 2011 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
Who cares if hes not a collegiate wrestler?
GSP isnt either but many consider him a wrestler
by Papercut Elbow on Jan 5, 2011 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
Catch wrestling also spawned today’s… I want to say free style wrestling but I could be wrong. I know that folk style is accurate…. but to say that catch wrestlers aren’t wrestlers? Well, if that’s what you think then I have nothing for you.
Also, just do yourself a favor and change your name to UFClogic.
www.mmalinker.com
by exsanguinator on Jan 6, 2011 4:45 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
so was mark Coleman and countless others.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Jan 5, 2011 3:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I just don't see how you can put Cain's best wins
up against Fedor’s best wins (assuming he beats Werdum, Overeem and the winner of the “challenger” bracket), especially if he doesn’t fight and beat the second best UFC HW, JDS, before that happens.
As for the lack of wrestlers in the SF bracket, I’m not really buying it. The grappling pedigrees of Fedor, Barnett, Werdum and even Overeem make them serious challenges for any wrestler.
In general, in most divisions, I think the UFC champion is the MMA #1, just because of the talent level, but I don’t think you can make the same claim 100% at HW.
That you aren’t even willing to consider the possibility exposes you as being a giant UFC mark, but that’s not exactly a revelation.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jan 5, 2011 2:45 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
So just to be clear
it would be “dumb” to even have a conversation about Fedor having a better claim to #1 overall, if he were to add to his existing superlative record wins over Werdum, Overeem, and Barnett?
Even if Cain doesn’t fight and beat JDS in the interim?
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jan 5, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
Werdum, Overeem, and Barnett were Crocops and Big Nogs bitches.
Neither of those guys (nog and crocop) are factors in the UFC but somehow their bitches have all of a sudden become a murderers row? come on…
Then anyone who beats crocop and big nog in the UFC in the next 12 months should also be considered #1.
Overeem looks like a different fighter Ill concede that… but right now he’s nothing more than potential and we wont know his full potential until it’s verified in the UFC where every aspect of his game will be tested.
Brandon Vera was also potential and looked like a killer against b-level fighters. If he wasnt in the UFC and had a diet of the Japanese can circuit and play time in strikeforce’s kiddy pool, Kid Nate would be running around claiming Vera is #1.
by mmalogic on Jan 5, 2011 3:24 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
It's all a little MMAmathy to me
Cain, for as good as he is, and as much upside as he has, still has two elite-level wins, and one of them is over a guy who looks to be on his last legs. He’s earned the #1 overall spot, but it’s not unassailable. If he’s idle while SF’s best beat the crap out of each other, they chip away at his position. If a Fedor, Werdum or Overeem comes out of that tournament on top, they will have more quality wins than Cain and more recent quality wins.
That is a lot of ifs, and I think SF has a hard time making this all happen, but if this tournament goes off, UFC better get Cain in the ring with JDS, stat.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jan 5, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
MegaReem was a fuckin Kid in early pride and was still a force.
Werdum went to decision with nog. Werdum is on his way up while nog is on his way down. Such is life.
CroCop got his ass kicked by Reem. Nog dropped a decision to barnett. Bitches huh?
And btw the current #1 hw’s best win IS over Big Nog. Who was a God damn ufc champion "non factor " or not.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Jan 5, 2011 4:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I just don't get
How beating Werdum, Overeem, and Barnett isn’t better than beating Nog and Lesnar at this point, without even considering the rest of their careers, where Fedor would be hands down better.
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Head Kick Legend
It’s 2011 – try five.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 5, 2011 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
Use some sense...
If he were one of the guys beaten to win the tourney, by definition he would have to pick up 2 quality wins to get there…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
"People griping about this matchup need to stop using fight finder as their primary source of MMA information and watch some fights already."
-smoogy2
by The American Ronin on Jan 5, 2011 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
Cains great but are you really going to try and peg that beating Brock Lesnar is more impressive than theoretically defeating Fedor, Werdum and Barnett if Overeem runs the gauntlet.
The baddest man on the planet…
So far Cain only has 2 top 10 wins, Lesnar and a withered Noguiera (whom I still love), then he just some beatings over Rothwell, Kongo and Brad Morris.
Food goes in here
I was talking about
Barnett, countering subo’s claim of a lack of quality wins and how he should be ranked in the event he wins the “Challengers” side of the bracket.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
"People griping about this matchup need to stop using fight finder as their primary source of MMA information and watch some fights already."
-smoogy2
by The American Ronin on Jan 6, 2011 10:18 AM EST up reply actions
It's not like he's out there getting housed either
Barnett’s been winning the fights he has, and still seems to have the same skill set that put him in the conversation.
Bottom line is that Fedor’s resume is better than Cain’s right now, but Cain still gets the nod because of 1) Fedor’s loss to Werdum and 2) Cain’s destruction of #1 HW Brock Lesnar.
If Cain is out for a year…or more, and Fedor, by some miracle, fights and beats all of those guys in a year and change, I think you’re going to have a hard time finding guys who don’t put him at #1.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jan 5, 2011 5:59 PM EST up reply actions
Sure
Even though he would have had two quality wins to make the final. Now tell me how beating Werdum and Overeem isn’t better than beating Nog and Lesnar.
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Head Kick Legend
This would be a perfectly logical POV
Circa 2006…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
"People griping about this matchup need to stop using fight finder as their primary source of MMA information and watch some fights already."
-smoogy2
by The American Ronin on Jan 5, 2011 10:59 PM EST up reply actions
I know enough about MMA that i dont need you to tell me what I know about MMA. Whoever wins is #1, enough said.
by destructivist on Jan 5, 2011 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
You’re really spinning your wheels at this point. “Werdum is a UFC washout” is not exactly compelling or new talking point to rally behind.
You twist it to make your point valid.
Someone else will twist it to make their point valid. It never ends. He either is fat or he beat Fedor.
Or a fat guy that JDS knocked out beat Fedor
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 5, 2011 5:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sigh...
He was fat and out of shape when JDS caught him, he was in peak condition when he caught Fedor…
Its like comparing Rua vs. Forrest and Rua vs. Machida…although at least Rua had being rushed back from major injury to blame…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
"People griping about this matchup need to stop using fight finder as their primary source of MMA information and watch some fights already."
-smoogy2
by The American Ronin on Jan 5, 2011 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
Heck one may point out that Werdum beat Fedor with an injured elbow too. Or that Fedor lost because he wasn’t used to the cage. There is always some excuse for every guy that loses, well except for Brock Lesnar once he lost to Cain he just sucks and can’t beat anyone.
by who me on Jan 5, 2011 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 5, 2011 7:15 PM EST up reply actions
It's definitely just marketing
The whole “tournament” idea is just a way to get people talking, and it’s working. But you know what else is just a marketing tool? Championship belts. So deriding it for “not being a tournament” is stupid.
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Head Kick Legend
Sorry, but this is largely rubbish...
You do realize that the UFC has only had the #1 HW in MMA for maybe 6 months total over the last many years, don’t you?
As for the MMA Wrestling part, while I agree it is the best base for winning points-based MMA, Aldo, Anderson, BJ and Rua (among many others) would argue it is not a requirement to be #1.
Having said that, Cormier is a better MMA Wrestler than Brock, Cain or Carwin, although Cain is a better, more well-rounded fighter overall at the moment, with an elite gas tank.
If Cain struggles with or loses to JDS, or is unable to fight for a year or so (highly likely IMO), then there is no way Fedor or Reem don’t become #1 if they win the tourney, regardless of a UFC fighter having held the spot for several months out of the last several years.
Also, unless Dana makes an exception for K-1 like he was willing to do for Fedor with Sambo, Reem is not likely to end up in the UFC when he has equal or superior competition outside of it, plus the ability to fight K-1 and DREAM when he wants.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
"People griping about this matchup need to stop using fight finder as their primary source of MMA information and watch some fights already."
-smoogy2
by The American Ronin on Jan 5, 2011 5:59 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sir its shit like that
That got you my vote for second best commenter of the year, behind myself of course. Lol
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Jan 5, 2011 6:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Let's talk about the title first.
I noticed Luke started the “Worst comment of the day” award. I think he should make a new one. “Worst title of the day award”. This would win hands down.
I’ll answer your question. No. Does Strikeforce’s Heavyweight division leapfrog the UFC’s with this tournament? That is if everything goes as planned. I believe so. And the winner would be considered the best heavyweight in the world right up there with the winner of Dos Santos/Cain.
And I’m not starting shit with you Nate. Just joining in on the fun that Luke started.
also from mmafighting
So you’d like all the tournament fights to be five-round fights?
We’d like to, yes.
Amazing.
Let's not get carried away here.
It’s a great tournament, and SF will thave their moment in the spotlight, but once Cain is back things will be more even again.
By the time Cain is back, and scheduled against JDS
They will be two fights deep into this tournament. If he comes back around the time that Overeem fighting Fedor in the semis, I think we’ll all still be paying attention.
Cain-JDS is a huge, huge fight, but I’m getting depressed about the prospects of it happening anytime soon. I think they’ll do a JDS fight before Cain gets back, and who knows what comes out of that. If JDS gets nicked up, or the timing is weird, or Frank Mir somehow pulls something out of his ass, the UFC could have a real hard time putting together an interesting HW title defense in 2011.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jan 5, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
LOL, Leapfrog the UFC With Strikeforce Heavyweight Tournament? thats funny
Can Scott Coker Leapfrog the UFC With Strikeforce Heavyweight Tournament?
NO, with one tournament they are going to “leapfrog” the UFC? that’s just a silly thought.
With their limited resources and small HW division, i just can’t see how they would ever be able to surpass the UFC, sounds more like a case of wishful thinking than anything….
www.MMAMATRIX.net !! Come join us!
Small HW division?
Let’s not pretend that the UFC has a huge division either. I think Carwin, Lesnar, Velasquez, JDS, Mir, and Nelson (Perhaps Schaub, Madsen, and Rothwell in a year) are pretty much on the same playing field as the guys in this tourny in terms of talent. Besides those guys, the UFC HW division doesn’t really got much
Dear audio diary: Today I may have accidentally registered myself as a sex offender! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY LIFE
- T-Rex
by sitnam90 on Jan 5, 2011 4:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
that does not make any sense. limited resources and small HW division. Oh wait a minute, this is an 8 man tourney with 2 alternate fights, by my math that makes 12 HW’s in total competing. UFC doesnt even have 12 elite HW’s.
by destructivist on Jan 5, 2011 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
? Does Strikeforce have 12 elite heavyweights? Heck 12 is darn near everyone in their division.
There is a heck of a lot for debate here but lets not act like Valentijn Overeem vs Ray Sefo isn’t something the UFC can’t blow away even with two top guys injured and one in legal limbo.
didnt the ufc just have dos santos vs. yvel
Lets not act like the ufc doesn’t put out some crap and act like its gold.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Jan 5, 2011 6:30 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I’m not, heck I’m not even sure where you got that that was what I was saying.
Why can’t we actually have a discussion without someone pulling a bunch of bullshit out of their ass and treating it like it was gold bars? There are good and bad with everything but don’t try and tell me that Strikeforce having 12 heavyweight fighters involved with this means anything and really don’t try to push it off as all 12 being elite. Look we are on the internet, none of our opinions matter nor will they change anything so why can’t we just discussthis with out all the arm flailing and bashing of entire divisions of fighters (in either company)?
Strikeforce is getting it right
I despise the way they have handled pretty much every other division they have, and I don’t feel that any of their belts have legitmacy. But if they can pull this off, they will finally have a serious division to showcase instead of Nate Diaz vs Non-WW’s.
But going off of their luck last year, and the habits of Alistair and Fedor to not fight in SF, it may fail miserably
Dear audio diary: Today I may have accidentally registered myself as a sex offender! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY LIFE
- T-Rex
by sitnam90 on Jan 5, 2011 3:54 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Ridiculous
I think the tournament is a dream come true for hardcore fans, but it’s ludicrous to actually think Strikeforce will pass the UFC. They could have this tournament on any channel at peak viewing hours and it wouldn’t matter. To a casual fan all that matters is three letters. UFC.
"When I beat Wanderlei I’m a take his belt, pull his pants down and spank him for being so ugly" - Quinton Jackson
If they could get this tournament on CBS and get CBS to push it like it was Kimbo then it could make a dent but with it on Showtime most casual fans won’t even know that it happens.
Honestly
Even if they got it on CBS I don’t think it would matter. Kimbo is already established to casual fans from being a viral star, everyone in the SF tournament is sooo non-mainstream. Arlovski is probably the only known one because he was on Bully Beatdown.
"When I beat Wanderlei I’m a take his belt, pull his pants down and spank him for being so ugly" - Quinton Jackson
I agree with who me, this would make a dent if it were on CBS with heavy promotion on CBS sports events, since you’d be reaching an audience that the UFC does not, at least not directly. If they could push it as a tournament with “four former and current world champions, and the man who slayed the best fighter in history.” As “one tournament to decide it all.” Just push the hell out of it. Push Shane Del Rosario’s reserve bout too as a fight between two rising stars wiating in the wings, one of them undefeated.
This will not happen.
This is on Showtime, with promotion through Showtime and online, and mostly only appeals to the hardcore fans. It will get good ratings by the standards of StrikeForce on Showtime, but even if the tournament goes off perfectly, it will probably only determine who the #2 fighter in the world is.
ok, two things...
1) in that photo, Fedor looks like the love child of Coker and Vadim.
2)could the tournament setup be the reason M-1 stalled so much in negotiations, or are they just a bunch of hos?
by Victor Rodriguez on Jan 5, 2011 4:38 PM EST reply actions
I can't wait for this tournament to unfold
hey injuries, M1 and steroids – I am sincerely asking you to stay out of this tournament, please. Coker, goodluck sir and harden your balls.
This tourney is fucking awesome no matter what logic says.
I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
But I won’t pick against Jon Jones again until I see him lose. - Kwisatz Haderach
by vivero on Jan 5, 2011 8:03 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Okaaaaayyyy!
Im guessing you’re posting this on the hunch that the tourney will actually have a conclusion…I find it hard to believe that Coker can pull off a heavyweight tournament with the cast of starts involved.
Coker doesn’t have the sack to make Overeem defend the title, Coker also doesn’t have the melons to stand up to M-1. If Fedor moves on it the tourney will M-1 make SF renegotiate his contract? Yes, it sounds stupid, but they’ve done it before…oh and lest we forget Josh Barnett might not even be able to participate. Who knows how that’s going to shake out. Coker had to do something to keep Strikeforce relevant and I like this little twist, but leapfrogging the UFC with the talent pool he has under contract…I think not!!
Pretty damn sure Coker has all his cards in place, he’s gone ahead an booked/setup pretty sweet reserve bouts, has Fedor Locked down so theres no bullshit down the road with M1, Cant forget, with his Martials Background, Time in Japan working with K1, running sweet K1/kickboxing events for years under Strikeforce banner, Coker isnt as dumb or naive as most make him out to be. Just because he doesnt do the Dana Douchebag Diatribes, doesnt mean he doesnt know what the fuck he;s doing. Hell safe to say he knows more about Martials Arts an combative sports better then Dana an the Fertitas ontop of the other ‘Promoters’ out there. Dude deserves helluva lot more Respect from fans an media alike imho at least.
How do you Know where Im at? If you dont Know where Ive been...Understand where Im coming from??
Coker’s biggest problem in running a promotion is that he is a really nice guy. Heck even when Dana White rants on Strikeforce he leaves Scott Coker out of it. Sometimes it takes an outspoken take no shit asshole to get things done and control the narrative though.
Or to convince the Rubes you are a badass
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
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