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The Case Against Women in the UFC

(This article is an expansion of a comment made in response to Tomas Rios' article, Dana White and Women's MMA)

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Over the past few years, the segment of 'hardcore' MMA fans pushing for the major MMA organizations to more thoroughly integrate a female contingent has become increasingly vocal. Bolstered by the mainstream acceptance and interest in Gina Carano, and by the in-cage prowess of the human wrecking machine commonly known as Cristiane "Cyborg" Santos, these individuals hold that women deserve and ought to be in the premiere MMA promotions.

A common argument used on this front is that MMA (and, to be honest, read the UFC here) is not hampered by the decades of tradition which currently separate the genders in other, more traditional sports. As their limited history provides them a cultural space to do so, the UFC ought to integrate females and thus seize an opportunity to set a standard of equality based on skills, and not gender. Or so the story goes.

In response to this account, I think a fair line of inquiry can be stated as follows. Have other (any) similarly situated leagues and/or promotions suffered a blow to their credibility as a serious sports venture for not featuring female ranks? I hesitate to think so.

Which drives at the real core of this article, I suppose, which is why the UFC and other major promotions ought to be held to such a separate code of conduct by certain fans as it pertains to this issue.

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This push to have women compete in the major MMA organizations seems to secure its thrust from a collective sense of both gender-based guilt and moral opportunism. By the former, I mean our generational predilection to pay social reparations for the discriminatory behavior of our great-grandfathers, and by the latter, I mean the seemingly ubiquitous tendency in Western culture to judge others based on what we would have done or not done in situations where others ought or ought not have done something.

Now, while neither of these traits are ‘bad’ per se, and both are components of what allows us to participate in moral communities based on empathic response, neither lead us to the truth of this situation in either a sporting or moral context. So, they fail at answering the question of why women should be integrated into the UFC.

The most common answer to this question can, I think, be rendered something like this. Failing to feature women in the largest MMA organizations (again, read the UFC here) is the application of an unfair standard. (This is a seriously crude version of the story, but provisionally I think it works.)

At bottom, this kind of explanation for why women ought to be in the UFC rests on its attempt to generate the obligation to act according to a moral principle. The issue here is that moral obligations ultimately rest on a shared standard between two or more moral agents. This standard needs to be such that the differing treatment of one agent over another under the standard can be deemed ‘unfair,’ and the obligation to apply it equally can be generated

In the work world, for example, it is simple enough to generate the moral obligation to pay males and females an equal wage, ceretis paribus, as the standard of performance is shared by each class of agent. As there are no discernible differences between the way in which a female and male can perform intellectually, paying one higher than the other, ceretis paribus assumed, is unfair.

The problem is that sports is the one realm where such equal standards of performance do not exist. Without a hint of misogyny or a sexist bent, I can point out that the average male sports competitor performs better in tests of speed, endurance, strength, etc., than his female counterpart. Moreover, the distance between males and females tends toward divergence at the upper echelons of a given sport, not convergence. So, equal standards of performance do not apply in the majority of instances.

Now, as the premiere organization in MMA, the UFC is or in most instances ought to be the signpost for the standards of athletic performance for the sport. As such, it is in their interest to actively police the boundaries of that standard of performance by seeking out those athletes deemed to be at or above that standard, and jettisoning those deemed to be below it.

Most importantly, this standard need not be imbued with any gender selectivity. Which is to say, if at some point or another females reach or surpass that standard, we all ought to speak loud enough to generate the UFC’s obligation to act fairly according to this moral principle. At the present moment, however, and for the foreseeable future, females are neither at nor approaching that standard on a consistent enough basis to make their integration into the UFC a realistic business opportunity or a morally obligatory response.

Finally, and with the present squared away, I think it fair to ask whether or not Dana White should have proclaimed women will never compete in the UFC in a recent TMZ interview - the apt focus of Mr Rios' article. To put a complex issue very simply, and to agree with Rios, no.

Such a prohibitive response is, I think, the type of unfair bias that has coloured the checkered past of women in sports. While it is true that women do not currently compete at the UFC’s standards, and may never, the only morally acceptable response to that question is an indefinite one. Which is to say, the only morally acceptable response is to say, "Yes, if they consistently compete at a UFC level."

And while Dana unceremoniously brushing off the prospect of women ever competing in the UFC is distasteful, there are more than a few good reasons why they are not competing in the UFC now.

The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.

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This post is way more confusing and circuitous than it needs to be. It seems like you take forever to say relatively little. Anyway, how does one define “UFC standards?” Are you suggesting that females should have to be able to compete with males (either directly, or (rather unscientifically) indirectly by how good they “seem” to be) before joining the UFC? The former is obviously impossible and the latter is far too hard to objectively assess.

I don’t know where this whole idea of this strong push for women’s MMA comes from. A couple posters on BE say it and you call them an increasingly vocal segment? Anyway, the real bottom line is that women will be in the UFC if/when there is sufficient demand for it, not when women cross some imaginary skill threshold. And the main reason for lack of demand has nothing to do with the fights or fighters themselves in WMMA it has to do with the fact that most people find the idea of female MMA distasteful (myself included); and that is far harder to overcome than a simple skill differential.

by frosnt1 on Jan 21, 2011 11:42 PM EST reply actions  

I would love to see your polling information indicating that most people find WMMA distasteful. If you look at the ratings breakdowns across a Strikeforce event the ladies match almost always scores higher than the rest of the show. There are lots of people that will tell you that the ladies 115 tournament is what saved Bellator season 3 from being a complete waste of time. You may not like WMMA but that doesn’t mean you speak for the majority.

WMMA probably won’t be in the UFC and the reason has nothing to do with what Dana does and doesn’t want. The ladies are going to need their own promotion in order to have divisions deep enough to be fully meaningful. One fight per card just doesn’t provide enough depth.

by fitefan on Jan 22, 2011 1:52 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Frostn1

Me sorry – now on, me speak straight.

At any rate:

Are you suggesting that females should have to be able to compete with males (either directly, or (rather unscientifically) indirectly by how good they "seem" to be) before joining the UFC? The former is obviously impossible and the latter is far too hard to objectively assess.

The former is never implied, and ironically, the latter is written too confusingly to respond to directly. I can infer that you are taking issue with the notion of a performance standard, which is ridiculous to say the least.

To pretend as if a skill standard to reach the UFC, NHL, MLB, NBA, etc., is “imaginary” is profoundly silly. If there existed no standard of performance than any athlete could participate in any league, except they do not. The very fact that players and fighters are cut, released, hired, etc., into these leagues already requires that there is some standard of performance or another.

Now, in the case of the NHL, NFL, MLB drafts, this is objectively, and not rather unscientifically, measured in the first instance at the combines. It is later policed, to use that term, by the activity of the teams. In the UFC the standard is maintained rather dictatorially, but it is maintained at a certain common sense standard nevertheless.

And as I said, female MMA is currently not at that standard. A simple enough proposition.

by Disco-Platypus on Jan 22, 2011 9:28 AM EST up reply actions  

And as I explained, a very dumb proposition. Fighters are cut/released based on wins/losses in the UFC. There is no way to objectively measure how good the women “seem” and if you use that metric they will never “seem” to be up to the UFC standard because women are athletically inferior to men, and fewer women will be drawn to compete in fighting. Nor is that particularly relevant to them getting into the UFC.

The UFC has a brand built around a “tough guy” image and only if there were outstanding demand for WMMA would the UFC risk jeapordizing that image.

by frosnt1 on Jan 22, 2011 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

You are denying a common sense proposition in the interest of being contrarian.

Not a good personality trait to have.

To deny that the UFC, or any other league, has a standard of performance is, as you say, a “very dumb proposition.” Ignoring the fact that wins and losses are a performance standard in and of themselves, how do you reckon these fighters finagled themselves into the opportunity to win and lose in the first place?

Given your shaky position, I assume you feel Joe Silva and Dana White serendipitously happen upon willing gentlemen who look fit for a round of fisticuffs! Or not.

People are given an opportunity to perform in the UFC precisely because they are deemed to perform at the standard held by the UFC. Moreover, each and every single other sports league performs in this way. We commonly call such non “objectively measured” means of procuring talent a “draft.”

Though I risk having you gloss over it, a draft is where a prospective employer (i.e., a team) subjectively assesses whether or not an agent (i.e., a player) is capable of performing according to that team’s standard. Neat, huh.

In the case of the UFC, they are the sole proprietor and operator of a league and thus fulfill the function of a team that procures talents according to their standard of performance. Again, to deny this is a, “very dumb proposition.”

In the case of women, should they perform to this standard at some point, I have no doubt that the UFC will integrate them. This “tough guy image” nonsense you are extolling here is completely peripheral to the point. That image can be cultivated through any means provided the talent is there.

by Disco-Platypus on Jan 22, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

There's a lot of big words being tossed around here so I'll just stae it simply.

Money talks, bullshit walks. The UFC will put on fights tha will make them money. The reason Bonnar is still around and Gerald Harris isn’t is because people are entertained more by Bonnar’s slugfests than Harris’ wrestling. Generally, women’s sports have not historically generated nearly as much interest as mens (WNBA is only around because the NBA subsidizes them) and therefore it is not in Zuffa’s best interest to have women’s MMA. This isn’t a moral issue, it’s a business issue.

by MemphisMike on Jan 24, 2011 12:53 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Dana will not be the UFC president forever

What is he going to do if he’s dead or retired and the next president decides to allow women in?

Not a damn thing.

So ‘Not as long as I’m president’ makes sense to me. But either way, the UFC just added a 135 and 145 pound division…any addition of women divisions is at least several years off.

CPG
Alistair Overeem - StrikeForce HeavyWeight Champion, K-1 2010 World Grand Prix Champion, DREAM Interim HeavyWeight Champion

by Chris Groves on Jan 22, 2011 12:37 AM EST reply actions  

I think a women’s division in the UFC would go over like a fart a funeral. It would just be hard to process. No one likes to see a woman getting punched. I am an rabid mma fan, and when I watch women’s bouts, part of my brain is like this is not cool.

by Wormwood on Jan 22, 2011 2:34 AM EST reply actions  

No one likes to see a woman getting punched

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgdyBvHdNKY&feature=player_detailpage#t=62s

5877 people disagree.

They see me rollin...

by spectaa on Jan 22, 2011 9:15 AM EST up reply actions  

It is less about a visceral response for me, and more about the quality of bouts. WMMA is simply not contested at a high enough level on a consistent enough basis for me to be seriously interested in it.

by Disco-Platypus on Jan 22, 2011 9:34 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Interestingly we agree and disagree simultaneously on this point

I am very interested in Women’s MMA and watch it as often as I can- but I completely agree with you that it is not contested at a high enough level to really be viable as a large scale product yet. I mean, it is hard enough to find 8 female fighters for a division or tournament that are all a) approximately the same skill level and b) fighting in their natural weight class. As such, as much as I love seeing the women’s fights I still sort of feel that it will take another 5-10 years of expanding in the minor leagues and growing the number and skill level of fighters before we can seriously talk about a real women’s division in the mainstream. Until then it usually comes off as a gimmick, which is unfair to the fighters that have put in their blood, sweat, and tears.

by Enmascarado on Jan 22, 2011 10:10 AM EST up reply actions  

From MMAPayout.com


As previously reported, the Strikeforce Challengers 9 event drew 197,000 Showtime viewers this past Friday night. The peak audience of the show took place during the Kaufman vs Modafferi co-main event which drew 254,000 viewers. In fact, the main event between Shane Del Rosario and Lolahea Mahe saw a drop of 28,000 viewers for the nights headliner.

http://mmapayout.com/2010/07/sarah-kaufman-vs-roxanne-modafferi-build-up-and-aftermath/

And from Dave meltzer @ Wrestling Observer
 

And by every indication, those who were critical of putting women in the main event have this week had to eat major crow. After a weekend which saw mentions of Carano and Cyborg become the No. 1 most searched item on Yahoo, No. 2 on Google, and the most discussed topic on Saturday night on Twitter, the key number, the television ratings, were record breaking for Showtime. On Yahoo, we had more hits for coverage of the show on 8/16 than we did on 8/9, the day after UFC 101, and UFC 101 was at a level above all but the biggest UFC events in history. Carano stories were put on the front page (not of sports but of everything) both before and after the event, and even as late as 8/18, three days after, a story on Cyborg’s next potential opponents was on the front page.

by fitefan on Jan 22, 2011 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

100% agree with you.

Which is precisely my reason for why, speaking both in a moral and sport context, they do not deserve to be in the UFC or other major organizations just yet.

by Disco-Platypus on Jan 22, 2011 10:59 AM EST reply actions  

I agree the UFC doesn’t have to do WMMA nor does any promotion.

But to say women don’t belong in any major league is to ignore what is going on in WMMA. People look at the SF W145 division and judge all of WMMA by what they have seen. And I agree the Cyborg vs Finney fight should never have happened.

But look at W135. A year ago Sarah Kaufmann looked unstoppable. But Marloes came in and took the title, Amanda Nunes is about to be unleashed into the W135 division, Germaine De Randamie the best female kickboxer on the planet is on the undercard of the next SF show. So now Sarah is going to be an underdog in most of the fights she has. Mean while a number of ladies that used to fight at 135 are cutting down to get to 125. Zoila and Roxanne would be good examples of that.

Women used to have to do crazy weight changes in order to get fights. That is why you have say Zoila who has fought from 115 to 135 for example. Lots of womens fights used to happen at open weight. Cutting didn’t use to be a big part of the game. But now every one is doing it because the competition is ramping up so fast. There are way more fighters now so the huge weight differences won’t be happening at least in the big promotions..

Women from other female combat sports are going to be coming in at a crazy pace this year. There are 3 Olympic medal winning wrestlers just turning pro right now. There is an Olympic medal winning Judo player who is just tuning pro. One of the best female boxers on the planet is training at the Jackson camp and has a fight coming up.

Mean while the lady that many consider the best P4P female fighter on the planet Tara LaRosa isn’t even signed to a top shelf promotion yet.

by fitefan on Jan 22, 2011 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

i agree

wmma is maybe not UFC level RIGHT NOW, but it is progressing fairly quickly. SF having some big shows with female fighters should only accelerate the sport. In a few years, I think we will see a lot more quality wmma fights.

I think wmma is closer to producing consistent, quality fights than the OP author and some others on here think

by tkired on Jan 23, 2011 9:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Women’s MMA certainly has a place and at times, can be entertaining. But why should the UFC have it? They are already releasing decent fighters because they only have so much room. What would the UFC have to gain by having women? Very little imo.

Honestly, as good as some women are, the fights are rarely UFC level fights, certainly not often enough to justify setting up classes and belts, etc.. This would also only further thin a shallow pool of female fighters across promotions.

Really, the only reason to even talk about this is because Dana incensed people by stating that the UFC won’t have women’s MMA and then voicing his personal opinion on the subject.

Bottom line, Dana has done things before that he wasn’t really in favor of, because he know it will make the promotion money. I feel he would do the same thing here, if there was the demand for it. AT the end of the day, like him or not, Dana is a businessman.

I know this, I certainly have no problem watching women’s MMA, but if you try and get me to PPV it, it won’t happen.

Good for Dana and the UFC, it isn’t the right place for women’s MMA.

by BJJDenver on Jan 22, 2011 11:57 AM EST reply actions  

Honestly, as good as some women are, the fights are rarely UFC level fights, certainly not often enough to justify setting up classes and belts, etc.. This would also only further thin a shallow pool of female fighters across promotions.

Really, the only reason to even talk about this is because Dana incensed people by stating that the UFC won’t have women’s MMA and then voicing his personal opinion on the subject.

This is precisely my point in the article and the impetus for writing it.

Though the individual above seems to deny that such a thing as “UFC level” exists – how he feels the UFC selects talent is a mystery – women not currently fighting at that level on a consistent basis is why they are not in the UFC, or featured prominently in other major promotions.

by Disco-Platypus on Jan 22, 2011 1:09 PM EST reply actions  

"UFC level" is a cloudy term at best.

The UFC does not select talent solely on them being the best. For every Cain Velasquez, you have a Tim Hague. Shogun Rua:Stephan Bonnar, Anderson Silva:Nate Quarry, etc. etc. Then you have your Kimbo Slices and James Toney’s. The UFC is a business 1st and an MMA Promotion 2nd.

But anyway, you still don’t really make much of a point. Maybe it’s your style of writing that threw me off.

My 2¢ is that WMMA is in the same place that MMA was in it’s early years, a few really good fighters at the top and a bunch of not so good competition beneath them. And don’t forget that the boom in MMA (in the U.S.) was started by TUF and the subsequent Griffin/Bonnar epic. WMMA needs it’s Griffin/Bonnar moment.

Meet me on Monsta Island. Where the girls look good and the MC's be Wildin'.
Also, follow me on Twitter @DeoWade

by Damon O. on Jan 24, 2011 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

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