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The Fedor Bump Fallacy

The Heavyweight Grand Prix is only a few weeks away and I look forward to the release of USA Today/SB Nation's consensus ranking so that I can see the huge leap that Fedor Emelianenko's opponent, Antonio "Bigfoot" Silva, makes in the standings. Currently he sits at number 10, but it is common wisdom that as soon as someone is announced as an opponent against Fedor they skyrocket up in the rankings.

Don't believe me, just take a look at what happened with Fabricio Werdum. On November 19th, 2009 he was ranked number 10 in the consensus rankings. This was less than two weeks after his victory over "Bigfoot" and before his match with Fedor had been announced. And so where was Werdum when the fight went down? By June 24th he had skyrocket all the way to... number 9. What is even more outrageous is that in his rise he had leapfrogged an inactive and unlicensed Josh Barnett and Brett Rogers, who was coming off two losses.

Ok, so maybe Werdum isn't the best example. But surely no one can forget the bump that Brett Rogers got after he was announced as Fedor's opponent, entering their November 7th, 2009 fight at number 8 in the rankings. And what was Brett's ranking in July of that year, several weeks before Strikeforce announced his fight with Fedor, and even before fans knew that Fedor would be even signed to the promotion? Number 8.

Well, then what of Josh Barnett who was ranked number 2 before their scheduled match at Affliction 3? Well, he was number 3 in January of that year, going into his "Affliction: Day of Reckoning" fight, and then jumped to number 2 immediately following it on the strength of his victory and, perhaps more importantly, then number 2 Andrei Arlovski's loss.

Andre Arlovski's himself was number 6 after leaving the UFC and before his fight with number 10 Ben Rothwell. After his impressive showing he jumped to number 4, over future "bump" beneficiaries Josh Barnett and Fabricio Werdum, eventually making it to number 2 in time for his fight with the Last Emperor. Now could we take Arlovski's rise as evidence that the "bump" exists. Perhaps, but the more likely answer might be that while Andrei was beating number 17 Roy Nelson on CBS, both Randy Couture and Antonio Rodrigo Noguiera, the two fighters that had been ranked above him, lost.

The fighter that best provides any evidence of a "bump" is Tim Sylvia, who was number 7 following his exit from the UFC and came in at number 5 by the time Affliction: Banned was held. One problem with using his rankings as evidence is that the consensus ranking where retooled during the interim. As Kid Nate wrote at the time:

Presenting the relaunch of the Bloody Elbow Meta-Rankings. We took a couple of months off and retooled our approach to include more sources. We also eliminated the weighting we were doing to favor statistical and fan-voting sites.

So are there any heavyweights that receive a bump? Well, there is one obvious example, a fighter who was unranked in March of 2008, following his victory over an unranked, 1-0 UFC novice, came in at number 15 after he was announced to fight  for the interim title, and number 10 by the time the fight took place in December of 2009. And during that whole time, as he was rising in the ranks, he didn't have a single fight that could explain his rise.

This fighter's name is Frank Mir, and unfortunately for "bump" theorists his opponent was Big Nog and not Fedor.

The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.

Comment 71 comments  |  21 recs  | 

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LOL

I havent heard that there was a bump for people that fight fedor before. There has been a bump down after losing to him though, lol. One thing I can agree with is that Frank Mir has had a history of being overrated after his return to fighting. 14-5 and all 5 losses by knockout. His big wins are Tim Sylvia and a VERY green Brock Lesnar. Big losses to Brandon Vera, Carwin (ouch), and Lesnar (double ouch). Wins over washed up Nog and CroCop are looking less and less impressive as we see how much they have faded. At least that is my 2 centavos.

Werdum beat Fedor, Dos Santos beat Werdum, Joaquim Ferreira beat Dos Santos. Therefore Ferreira is WAAAAY better than Fedor. Keep MMA math alive!

by crizzy on Jan 17, 2011 1:43 PM EST reply actions  

@crizzy....

I Totally agree about Fank Mir and ive been saying it for years now!! People tell me im stupid or crazy(sometimes both) when i say that hes overrated, but his only big wins are Big Nog and CroCop and both of those guys are WAY past theyre primes…Kongo was a decent win for him but i think what Mir’s career really proves is that having a good personality will do more for your perception in fans minds than actually winning the fights you need to!! hes lost to every figther that was a so called up-and-comer and is essentially just a gate-keeper that gets thrown ontoa fighter here and there that he doesnt deserve….like a 3rd fight with Brock. Vera beat the BRAKES off Mir!!

I like to Compare my Fighting Style to like, say a Honda Civic.....Im Not The Biggest, Fastest, Strongest Car on the Lot, but Im Efficient on Gas...-Nam Phan

by Curtis Wooden on Jan 18, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Mir's only win over a top-10 guy in the last 6+ years

was against infected zombie Nog.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Jan 18, 2011 6:55 PM EST up reply actions  

This is totally off subject.

Does anyone know how to insert a picture, from your computer, onto a fan post? I know how to do it using a photo from the internet, but I can’t figure out how to put a saved photo from my hard drive onto a fan post.

ANY help would be great.

Oh yea…Good post. Fedor is gonna starch bigfoot

by Fedorable on Jan 17, 2011 2:20 PM EST reply actions  

Don’t think you can. You need to put it on a web server first and then link it in.

by fitefan on Jan 17, 2011 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Picasa

Is your friend.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Jan 17, 2011 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Could this articles agenda be anymore clear?

This article is full of non-substantial facts, it’s like an April Fools joke.

3/10.

by Marcus Bush on Jan 17, 2011 2:30 PM EST reply actions  

What's the agenda?

There was always debate on this site on whether or not Fedor’s opponents got extra love in the consensus rankings.

If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants

by Tonley on Jan 17, 2011 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m looking forward to your analysis that disputes this article.

by fitefan on Jan 17, 2011 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Awesome piece, man

I’ve heard this argument before, and always wondered the truth value of it. Rec’d to the sky

You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/

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by ElliotMatheny on Jan 17, 2011 3:19 PM EST reply actions  

So what you’re saying is Arlovski went from 6 to 2 by beating Ben Rothwell and Roy Nelson (who took the fight on about two weeks notice)?

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Jan 17, 2011 3:38 PM EST reply actions  

in combination with the people above him losing to people below him.

If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants

by Tonley on Jan 17, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

but the more likely answer might be that while Andrei was beating number 17 Roy Nelson on CBS, both Randy Couture and Antonio Rodrigo Noguiera, the two fighters that had been ranked above him, lost.

They see me rollin...

by spectaa on Jan 17, 2011 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

AA was ranked number 2 before Randy and Nog lost

So…..

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by S.C. Michaelson on Jan 17, 2011 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Nope. Was number 3 in December while Nog was still 2 right before the Mir fight. Although he did jump Randy in October when Randy was dropped to 7 in some polls because of inactivity.

by John Nash on Jan 17, 2011 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

What was he before Randy lost?

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by S.C. Michaelson on Jan 17, 2011 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

He jumped up from 4 to 3 in late September when Randy got dropped from several of the polls on the consensus (falling from 3 to 7 at that time). As Kid Nate explained in that Septembers ranking:

In the heavyweights, Randy Couture is being punished for inactivity as several of the major ranking sites drop fighters with more than a year without fighting. Otherwise the top 10 is pretty static.
I am of the train of thought that if Randy had beaten Lesnar, when he was reinstated on many of those polls he would have retaken his position above Arlovski.

by John Nash on Jan 17, 2011 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Honestly, I don't believe AA was a bad ranking

Rogers defintely got a bump and Sylvia’s rank was overinflated by performances a while agho.

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by S.C. Michaelson on Jan 18, 2011 2:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Disagree.

Arlovski was top 5 when Rogers blitzed him. Thus his ranking was justified. Sylvia was 10-2 going into the Fedor fight with 2 losses to Couture and Nog.

by Menime on Jan 18, 2011 11:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Rogers wasn't a top 30 fighter when he bumrushed a chinny Arlovski

Sorry, that doesn’t bump you up to a top 10 fighter.

Sylvia was 1=2 going into the Fedor fight with a win over 205er Brandon Vera. We know where your bias is, so…

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by S.C. Michaelson on Jan 18, 2011 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Bias? Just stating facts...brother.

All of the low tier guys Rogers beat have more respectable records then most of Carwins first 10 wins, keep that in mind.

Also Arlovski is a better win than Gonzaga, and Carwin made it in the top 10 with just that.

by Menime on Jan 18, 2011 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s revisionist history.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jan 18, 2011 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

How is that revisionist?

Sylvia was clearly on the decline when he was pushed out of the UFC as shown by his 8 second KO by Ray Mercer.

If College Football can use a team’s performance immediately before and after to determine strength of schedule, then why can’t MMA?

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by S.C. Michaelson on Jan 18, 2011 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

The AA stuff, not the Sylvia stuff. Calling him “chinny”, for one. Beating a top 10 fighter does make you a top 10 fighter in a lot of cases, whether you like how people rank or not. If Rogers goes onto beat Fedor or win another big fight, no one cares about this initial ranking because he’s proven it. It’s revisionist.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jan 18, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Remember how AA loses?

Ricco got him with punches
Rizzo dropped him with a cross
Tim dropped him

He has a history of a glass chin.

If Rogers had beat Fedor, then he’s legit. A one-time bumrush win over a chinny fighter in 23 seconds doesn’t say a lot for someone’s skill level. I’m sorry. And judging by performances afterwards, he was clearly not deserving of that ranking. He got destroyed by ’Reem and decision beat Warpath. Cmon.

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by S.C. Michaelson on Jan 18, 2011 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

You’re still not understanding how you’re making decisions on a fighter NOW instead of THEN. Your opinion of rankings is irrelevant, he was ranked. How things have played out since then is irrelevant to the point that on THAT DAY, Rogers was ranked. And deserved to be.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jan 18, 2011 4:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Not really

It goes back to my original point. Rankings are subjective. What’s more accurate of a fighter’s skill level? A subjective ranking or a look at his performance immediately before and immediately after a fight as well as the performance of his opponents?

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by S.C. Michaelson on Jan 18, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

You can’t make that assessment in real time though. You can only make it in hindsight. Rankings are a reflection of that moment in time, you can’t see the future. Sure, we can say Rogers didn’t deserve it NOW, but how are you supposed to assess people in the present?

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jan 18, 2011 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not talking about a ranking per se, but as an assessment of him as a fighter

Even then, his ranking was shakey and people questioned it then. His subsequent fights proved the hypothesis. It reflects on the win (and Overeem’s win). The same as how JDS’ win over Werdum has only strengthened since then.

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by S.C. Michaelson on Jan 18, 2011 5:47 PM EST up reply actions  

You WERE talking about rankings right up until you flipped the script on the narrative to further your point. Which I retorted with my revisionist statement…which you still haven’t disproven at all. You’ve just argued around it.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jan 18, 2011 6:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Well

When you consider he lost to 2 of the 3 best HWs in the world in Fedor and Reem, I’d say at worst we still don’t know exactly who Rogers is.

Hopefully that changes in the tourney.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Jan 18, 2011 6:07 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Consider this about Rogers

Rogers made it into the 2nd round when only 3 guys in the 17 previous fight going back to June 2003 made it out of the first round with Fedor…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Jan 18, 2011 6:05 PM EST up reply actions  

And team sports comparisons never, ever work.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jan 18, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

And yet, even though he was on the decline, the UFC booked him for the interim HW title, meaning ostensibly they viewed him as one of their top 3 HWs.

If you take away Sylvia’s embarrassing and most likely fluke loss to Mercer he is 7-3 in his last 10 fights with his only losses coming to Fedor, Big Nog, and Randy Couture.

by John Nash on Jan 18, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Can't take away Sylvia's loss

You just can’t. It’s too damning.

Yes he was booked for an interim title shot, but the UFC had no else at that time. It goes to show you how piss-poor the UFC HW divisions were. Not a reflection of his skill.

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by S.C. Michaelson on Jan 18, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

No, he lost and it was embarrassing, but you don’t weigh the fact that from all reports didn’t take it serious at all, was under the impression it would be a “exhibition” boxing match, came in grossly out of shape, and is a fighter who wins by forcing grapplers to stand with up against a former HW boxing champ (talk about a terrible stylistic nightmare)? Or the fact that since then he’s gone 4-0 , and while his competition has not been the most impressive, he did beat Paul Buentello worse than anyone in the UFC did during his recent foray there.

As for his interim title shot, at the time the UFC had Frank Mir, Chieck Kongo, Gabriel Gonzaga, Fabricio Werdum, and Heath Herring all available, and yet they picked Sylvia over all them.

by John Nash on Jan 18, 2011 4:49 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Actually S.C.

He was #25 in the April 2009 consensus rankings. And AA was #3 in the same rankings.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Jan 18, 2011 6:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Good work, sir.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jan 18, 2011 6:05 PM EST up reply actions  

And before you ask...

You can look for yourself here.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Jan 18, 2011 6:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Disagree.

AA was top 5 when Rogers blitzed him, thus him thus justifying Rogers. Sylvia was top 5 as well and was 10-2 going into the Fedor fight.

by Menime on Jan 18, 2011 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, people tend to knock Arlovski down because
a) his recent skid
b) he’s not in the UFC
but when you look at his record going into the Fedor fight, 11-2 in his previous 13fights with his only two lossses coming against a top 5 fighter that had his number, and on a five fight win streak including the #5, #10, and #17, it looks pretty deserving,

I don’t think Sylvia’s ranking was that undeserving at the time either. Sure, he had only 1 win in his last 3 fights but the losses where to Nog and Couture, the number 2 and number 3 HWs and before that he’d won 6 in a row including three title fights.

Roger’s definitely jumped too high, but I don’t think it had anything to do with Fedor – as I pointed out he was #8 long before he fight was announced. His jump was pretty much no different than Carwin’s who went 11-0 and then beat one ranked opponent (#9 Gonzaga) to rise all the way to 6, while Roger’s was a similar 10-0 with a single top win over #4 Arlovski and got to 8. In hindsight Carwin was the better fighter, although I wonder if our views have been tainted by Roger’s performances since then. Sometime’s I think he might have been ruined by being thrown in the deep end too soon, because the Roger’s of his last two fights doesn’t look like the same guy as the one who fought in Elite or pommelled Abongo. Losing your confidence at the elite level can be career ending.

by John Nash on Jan 18, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Yep.

The way you’re supposed to – by beating two ranked opponents (#10 and #17) while the three fighters that were ahead of him (Werdum, Couture, and Big Nog) all lost to lower ranked opponents.

by John Nash on Jan 17, 2011 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Totally agree. He had looked a bit off his game. But by the time he got to Nelson and Fedor he looked like an absolute monster again. The change from before the KO to after was startling and disturbing. If he is able to tap into what ever it was that he was using when he fought Nelson and Fedor he can take his side of the tournament.

by fitefan on Jan 18, 2011 12:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Never heard about this before.

Really don’t care about rankings. Just want to see Fedor kick some ass.

by Crazynutts on Jan 17, 2011 6:33 PM EST reply actions  

I remember Brett Rogers was moved up to #5 AFTER losing to Fedor on the Sherdog rankings

Just because he put up a good fight.

It doesn’t matter, any rankings fallacies will all get sorted out. Circumstance might have led to this guy or that guy getting a certain ranking for X amount of time, but if they truly aren’t that good, the losses to guys who ARE that good will come in and beat them.

You only keep your ranking, whether it’s ‘gifted’ or not, for as long as you can win and defend the fact that you belong there.

CPG
Alistair Overeem - StrikeForce HeavyWeight Champion, K-1 2010 World Grand Prix Champion, DREAM Interim HeavyWeight Champion

by Chris Groves on Jan 17, 2011 8:23 PM EST reply actions  

You only keep your ranking, whether it’s ‘gifted’ or not, for as long as you can win and defend the fact that you belong there.

This has always been more of the issue with me. After Fedor fights the “number 5” heavyweight in the world that “top heavyweight!” is getting blasted by Ray Mercer even quicker than Fedor blew through him. Arlovski going on a skid after their fight, Rogers getting steamrolled by AO, Zuluzinho losing his next fight (kidding)…

As you say the rankings sort themselves out and he has zero wins over anyone in the current BE Top 10 in the last 5+ years.

Twitter: @VonFeldtDotNet

by Wonderlic on Jan 17, 2011 9:16 PM EST up reply actions  

In 2011

I promise I’ll learn the quote function, my fault.

Twitter: @VonFeldtDotNet

by Wonderlic on Jan 17, 2011 9:21 PM EST up reply actions  

MMA is also a mental game..

Both guys were shook up after losing so easily to Fedor and downright depressed. Andrei was on suicide watch and Sylvia ate himself stupid.

Look at the fighter that went into the fight, not the fighter that came out of it.

There is far too much revisionist theory in MMA right now because people hate being wrong or looking like a fanboy or whatever.

Liver Kick, formerly HKL
Twitter @LiverKick

by Dave Walsh on Feb 14, 2011 4:02 AM EST up reply actions  

rec’d

I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
But I won’t pick against Jon Jones again until I see him lose. - Kwisatz Haderach

by vivero on Jan 17, 2011 8:29 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

It's true

But it’s no different than the bump of fighters taking on UFC champions.

by Confucius on Jan 17, 2011 8:34 PM EST reply actions  

interesting post

further proving my claim that rankings are stupid

"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan

by milk72 on Jan 17, 2011 9:17 PM EST reply actions  

Dude your wrong!

Dude guys don’t get any bump in any rankings just based on their future opponent, THAT’S TOTAL BULLSHIT, they raise in the rankings from beating guys and looking impressively plus multiple wins in a row and Werdum wasn’t 10 dude at that time, he was higher or was on other top 10 lists, you need to look on more rankings lists than just this one even though this is a Consensus one or whatever cause Brock should NOT STILL BE at #2, I have him # 6 currently under, Cain, JDS, Werdum, Fedor & Overeem, there’s Brock then Carwin, Mir, Nog & Bigfoot or Barnett at #10 and I honestly don’t think this is legit, guys don’t just go up cause of who they are facing next dude or they shouldn’t!

by CharlieMMAFAN on Jan 17, 2011 9:32 PM EST reply actions  

What does this guy and Joan Rivers have in common?

By now, they’ve totally forgotten what a period is.

"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe

by pdl on Jan 17, 2011 10:34 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Prior to ufc 111

carwin was up to like 6 or 7 after only beating gonzaga, a long time before.

by rockyman500 on Jan 17, 2011 9:46 PM EST reply actions  

Only guy I can recall catching a still prime Cro Cop head kick and dumping him with it.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Jan 18, 2011 7:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Fedor did as well.

by Menime on Jan 19, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Another example would be Matyushenko mysteriously making it into the top 25 because of his fight against Jon Jones- look it up and you’ll see what I mean.

by TLow on Jan 18, 2011 11:06 AM EST reply actions  

Alot of the so called bump

seems to come just from the fact that it’s the HW Division. Lots of “weak” competition that we see now were the best in the world at one time.

Glad to see this written, great job!

by BeardedNerd on Jan 18, 2011 12:14 PM EST reply actions  

I had sort of bought into this even as a Fedor fan

But nottheface’s tireless missionary work has converted me.

Contributor at Unintelligent Defense
Lead Blogger at Ninja's Place
"...just when you think you’ve produced your magnum opus, someone shows up and takes a giant shit in your mouth. In your mouth." - Anthony Pace
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by Urijah Bieber on Jan 18, 2011 12:44 PM EST reply actions  

Im disappointed. You are forgiven though.

by Menime on Jan 18, 2011 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

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