The Strikeforce Deathwatch May Be Delayed (Updated)
[This was accidentally posted last night while still in rough draft form. If you read it yesterday, please note they I have made several changes and additions. I apologize for yesterdays error, which I blame on Kid Nate - nottheface]
It’s 2011 and the Strikeforce deathwatch continues on the blogosphere, as we await the company’s eminent demise under the massive debt that the company has either accrued, or will soon be incurring thanks to the Heavyweight Grand Prix. Strikeforce’s fate is sealed, all that remains to happen is for Scott Coker to be ritually sacrificed on the steps of the Temple of Kukulkan in Chichen Itza to the sun god Em-wun-gloebul in the year 2012.
But must this happen? Is Strikeforce really doomed to fail? If we look at the past history of other promotions that have found themselves in the UFC’s crosshairs the answer seems to be yes. But this observation could also be a problem of induction, since the death of each previous promotion seems to be as much due to their own missteps and shortcomings as it does from merely coexisting with an angry Zuffa. For Affliction it was overspending on talent - $5 million a show – and ineffective marketing while trying to make an immediate splash on periodic payperview events. In the case of the IFL it was running up too much debt trying to convince fans that preferred fighting in a cage and rooting for their favorite fighters to make the switch to MMA teams competing in a ring. Elite XC’s sin was piling up huge debts buying useless promotions and a too costly website all while pinning their fortunes on a "street fighter" with little actual MMA skill. And the tragic collapse of Pride had nothing to do with any actions in the American market at all, but instead a problem native to Japan - the yakuza.
The common denominator in the failures of all of these American promotions seems to be debt. So then, Strikeforce must surely be on the path towards doom as well for one only has to look at the disparity in revenue between the UFC and them to see that they have little chance of success. Again, we shouldn’t confuse the UFC's success with anyone’s failures. The difference in revenue only tells us that they aren’t nearly as successful as the UFC.
So the question for Strikeforce long-term survival seems to be are they losing or making money? Well, without access to their books this is difficult to gage, but by harnessing the power of Google [side note - you kids don’t realize how easy you got it] we can try and determine to the best of out abilities if they are. It might not give us as complete or detailed as answer as we would hope, but it should be suffice to tell us if we need to start planning their funeral or not.
via t3.gstatic.com
First we will need to determine their revenues to even have a modest chance of calculating their survivability. So what were their revenues for 2010:
- Gate. In 2010 Strikeforce averaged $578,657 at the gate for their Champions events based on the releases for their Miami, Live, Fedor vs Werdum, and Noon vs Diaz events. For their Challengers series it was $85,516 based on the average from 3 events (6, 7, 11).
- Television. According to the Florida State Boxing Commission, Strikeforce receives a $700,000 "Broadcast, Television, or Motion Picture" rights fee from Showtime for each Champions event.weekly.com/cbs/strikeforce-deal-with-showtime-and-cbs-worth-millions/"> Various reports have put the Showtime deal at either $8 million a year or $25 million for three years for 16 events per year (8 Champions and 8 Challengers). This would mean they are receiving roughly $300,000 per Challengers card as well. In addition, Strikeforce has separate deals for the foreign rights with SHINE and SPACE TV. The revenue from foreign distribution was recently put at over $1 million a year.
- Sponsors and merchandise. The figures that came out from the Strikeforce: Miami show ($8,003 in souvenir sales) doesn’t seem to indicate that there is much to be made selling Strikeforce merchandise. Although with the hiring of Creative Licensing International and their subsequent re-branding we should expect these numbers to increase dramatically in 2011. Still, while common sense may say their are making more off merchandise, their is no actual evidence to say so. As for sponsors, they have a sizable roster of recognizable brands: FullTilt Poker, Rockstar, GoDaddy, EASports, sporting logos at their show. I ran this by a friend of mine who is in the marketing department at Universal and she came up with $4 million dollars a year being a realistic and conservative number. Of, course a portion of that money goes to Showtime's coffers as the distributor of the product.
So we could conservatively estimate Stikeforce's total revenue for 2010 at around $20 million, or $2.5 per Champion/Challengers pairing (more on that later). This is a pittance compared to the $350-450 million the UFC generates, but is it enough to stave off the death?
Now before we get into Strikeforce’s costs let's take a look at what the UFC spends on an event to get an idea of what we should be looking at. For about the Fifteenth time I’ll be stealing Michael Rome's summary of expenses (as T.S. Eliot wrote, "mediocre writers borrow; great writers steal"):
I’ve done a lot of research into sports overhead, my guess is the UFC is probably spending between $3 and $4 million in overhead costs for the average event not including salaries.
They spend $500,000 on the countdown show, a six figure fee for the arena, between 500 and a million to broadcast in-house, then you have a very high cost of hotels and flights for all their staff and all the fighters, and finally all the money they spend on ad spots.
This is ignoring all the salaries they pay to staff and such, going to assume those as year-end expenses and not event-specific expenses.
Now before we get on to Strikeforce’s expenses let us examine their business model, for there seems to be much confusion amongst the fans about how they operate. First of all, for all practical purposes they are a television promotion, concerned only with making a product for Showtime to air and, more importantly, pay for. This is the reason why they generally only air the main card and not the prelims, and why there is such a disparity in talent levels between the two, because their focus is solely on the portion that will be aired by Showtime. In fact, the prelims should often not even be viewed as a Strikeforce event, but a separate event held in conjunction with them, for Strikeforce usually does not book these fights, nor are the fighters appearing on them "signed" with Strikeforce. instead Strikeforce leaves the prelims to be handled by a local promotion whom they will team up with when putting on a show in their area. This benefits Strikeforce because:
A) It lowers their expenses greatly. Not only are the local fighters more affordable, but they also save by having the local promotion handle many of the logistics. Additionally, using these locals saves them greatly on travel and lodging expenses, one of the UFC's major expenses.
B) When they do air the prelims, in the form of a Challenger card, they are paid for it, so that there is always a return on a fighter's payout.
So what are Strikeforce’s expenses?
- Payout. Their largest expense is the payout to fighters. Using what has been released by the various state athletic commissions last year their payouts averages were $441,125 per Champions event and $61,950 per Challengers card. Strangely enough, while payout takes up the majority of Strikeforce's expenses they have benefitted greatly by the UFC success in keeping wages down. Of course, this doesn't include any unreported bonuses, which are very hard to estimate. It does seem likely that a portion of the costs for their highest priced fighters is paid for by Showtime. Also of interest are some of the creative way they offer fighters compensation in their attempts to stay competitive while also keeping costs down. Example: Next time you look at Strikeforce poster, note the fighter's sponsor's logo fully visible on their shorts, or how many times you spot Clinch Gear on a broadcast.
- Television production costs are handled by their partner Showtime, saving Strikeforce hundreds of thousands of dollars in expenses, although they do pick up the tab for the house show which runs around $30,000 for a Challengers card
- When fighting at the HP Pavillion, the arena fee is being paid back directly to their partner, Silicon Valley Sports and Entertainment.
- As Leland Roling detailed, Strikeforce’s advertising budget is microscopic in comparison to the UFC’s.
- They also have to pay 2% of their Showtime revenue to Elite XC as part of the agreement for buying their assets.
I've estimated the expenses for Strikeforce in 2010 as being around $7.3 million or $900,000 per Champion/Challenger pairing. Now when comparing this number to the UFC's $3-4 million one realizes how bare bones an operation Strikeforce runs, saving several million per show by handing over the television production and majority of advertising to Showtime, while using local fighters and promotions.
So, for a single show (which I classify as a pairing of a Champions main card and a Challengers prelims) their revenues are $2.5 million while their expenses are $900,000, meaning a gross profit of $1.5 million per show. Of course, this doesn't include numerous other expenses, such as their operating costs, which may be remarkably low considering how Strikeforce has notoriously run by a company with only 12 employees, other unreported bonuses, and any debt payments.
Now should we accept these numbers as accurate? Good god, no. But they do give us enough of a picture, even if it is painted in very broad strokes, that while they may not being doing well by UFC standards they don't seem to have fallen in the same trap that killed those other promotions.
My prediction: Dana will have to hold off on adding a new name to his tombstone for awhile longer.
Addendum
It has been brought up in the comments that what really matters is not if Strikeforce is making money but if Showtime is willing to continue to air MMA. This is correctly the more important question and here is my thoughts on the matter:
There is a simple formula I was shown once for determining if a program is making money for a premiere channel (HBO or Showtime) or not - for every subscriber the channel makes $6.5, and as long as the program costs less than 40% the number of subscribers generated it is profitable. Now I don't know if that holds up anymore or is only applicable to shows likes "Weeds" and "Entourage", but it is all I got so I'm going to use it. Currently Showtime pays out $8 million to Strikeforce, so to reach the profitable state they needs to bring in 250,000 subscribers. If one looks at their Challengers cards as their reference point, it seems likely they are doing so. This also doesn't include the ad revenue that Showtime makes airing MMA, which is probably more than for similarly rated programming.
I also think that Showtime's interest in MMA is also influenced by a desire to get a piece of that payperview market, for as a payperview provider it would be a huge money maker for them, even more so than a successful monthly show. Even if Strikeforce draws 600,000 subscribers a month, Showtime stands to make more on 4 payperviews a year that sell 300,000 or more. Getting on payperview has probably been Showtime's goal since signing Elite XC and I don't think it has changed.
As for claiming that Showtime is overpaying for Strikeforce when compared to other brands on basic cable, I don't think that is accurate. Is HBO overpaying when it spends $5 million an episode on "Boardwalk Empire" or $10 million an episode on the "Pacific" when network TV spends only $2 or $3 million on a drama? Or how about the huge disparity in costs between an HBO Comedy Special and what the Comedy Channel spends? What Showtime is competing with is a $45 payperview product.
When one looks at recent actions - the resigning of stars such as Fedor, Nick Diaz and Robbie Lawler, upping the number of Strikeforce cards from 16 to 20 next year, and the airing of M-1 programming - paired with Showtimes recent growth (which has coincided with the introduction of MMA on their channel) and stated goal of drawing "a younger, male audience with edgier material", I don't think it likely they'll pull the plug just yet.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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by Pillow Pants on Jan 14, 2011 2:22 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
In seriousness, I think SF is eventually doomed to fail. Maybe not as a promotion, but as a competitor to the UFC.
I could easily see SF scaling back to a level somewhat closer to its prior self. I think there will always be a place for SF, perhaps just not the place they are trying to hold now.
We will see.
I could easily see SF scaling back to a level somewhat closer to its prior self.
Since all signs point to them going to Canada soon, have started discussion witth FEG about going to Japan, Are being hassled by M1 to go to Russia and have talked about England. I think it is just possible you might be a little off.
by fitefan on Jan 14, 2011 12:03 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Bingo
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Jan 14, 2011 12:13 AM EST up reply actions
Ill believe that when showtime is looking for subscribers in Japan or Canada. Coker cant take a shit without their approval and no way will they over pay for programming that doesnt attack a market with a live show they can gain subscribers or brand awareness in.
He’s just upset because Zuffa has shows in the areas where he’s been trying to have his shows. It’s called a temper trantrum.
hey make a fan post dude
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by Urijah Bieber on Jan 14, 2011 2:44 AM EST up reply actions
Do Showtime and HBO broadcast boxing from locations worldwide? Of course. Are you making stuff up again? Of course.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jan 14, 2011 10:05 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Haha
Reppin' the NYMMAI.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Jan 14, 2011 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
Is Jonatahn Snowden asking himself and then answering his questions, a la Favre?
Of course.

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by Anthony Pace on Jan 14, 2011 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
What are they competing with the UFC for exactly?
What will cause them to fail? Explain why you feel like this.
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Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 14, 2011 12:41 AM EST up reply actions
They are competing for your money and mine. Don’t kid yourself and think that SF is some charitable organization. If they had the ability to put on PPVs every month and take our money, they would.
And I would likely give it to them, because I don’t see the need to get behind one promotion or another, simply pay for the fights I want to see, which isn’t Babalu vs Henderson.
Yes, the tourney will be fun, but lets be realistic. Barnett? Arlovski? Valentin Overeem? In what year is this tournament? Just put Fedor vs AO and put it on PPV and take my money.
Bieber, I always appreciate where you come from in your posts, but you need to find some middle ground. I paid for Affliction, I paid for Pride, I paid for K1 Heroes and I paid for WEC. If SF puts on a card with fights I want to see, I will pay for SF as well. My point is, that I don’t want SF to fail, but what exactly are they doing that is so different from these other promotions? Right now 90% of the fights I want to see are in the UFC or involve UFC contracted fighters, therefore, I am a supporter of the UFC. Not to say I am against SF or any other promotion. I just don’t feel the need to come on BE or any other site and say they are the greatest or try and portray the tourney as the greatest thing ever.
What exactly is your selective definition of that word that allows them to succeed as a promotion but fail as a competitor?
Strikeforce is not trying to supplant the UFC. They’re taking their small piece of the pie and providing an alternative option for fighters.
Come on. You don’t think SF would like to be in the position the UFC is in? You think that SF is out there to take a small piece of the pie and is about the fighters? That is laughable and not in a bad way. SF should absolutely be going after the UFC. They should try and take over. The notion that they are some charitable organization to support fighters is ridiculous. If Sf isn’t attempting to be number one and be the best, I’m going to stop watching. I have no use for a promotion that isn’t trying to be the best and put on their best product.
Thanks for clearing this up for me!
Sorry, but the pie isn’t big enough. They should stuck to baking their own pie. If you had a pie and someone was trying to get a piece of it, what would you do? And the problem is, even if SF got that piece of pie, Showtime is just going to whip it away from them and they will be lucky to be left with crumbs.
Of course they’d want to be there. So what? Your point is that they should have stuck to being a local promotion because, what? Would they make more money doing that? Would they be better prepared to retain their drawing names than they would without Showtime’s money floating around?
If you don’t want to watch promotions that “aren’t trying to be the best” by whatever that means, just go watch the UFC and stop talking about anyone else. I don’t know what the deal is there, maybe you get some sort of self worth out of seeing a product you like succeed in the market place, but whatever it is, anyone else is going to disappoint you.
by VirtualBalboa on Jan 14, 2011 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
I never said they should have stuck to being a local show. All I said was that I think eventually, that is the form or close to it, that they will end up at.
I don’t know where you got that from, perhaps you misunderstood something or didn’t go back to the original post.
And you are god damn straight that I’m not going to pay a ppv charge or pay to have Showtime or waste my time if A promotion isn’t striving to be the best. The thing is, I never said that SF wasn’t doing that, it was a response to an entry you apparently didn’t bother to read.
Again, if you go back before running off at the mouth, you will see I am consistently extolling that we should support the fights, fighters we want to see and not worry about what the promotion i that is putting it on. It is just that right now, the UFC is putting out most of those fights.
And who do you think you are coming on here and posting about who can discuss what? You want to know what I like to see succeed? MMA. I could not give a shit what banner it is under.
But perhaps it gives you some self worth to get on here and dictate who is allowed to post what opinion and on what subject manner.
And you are god damn straight that I’m not going to pay a ppv charge or pay to have Showtime or waste my time if A promotion isn’t striving to be the best.
Gee, I don’t put that much thought into it. I simply buy it if the fighters are good or worth seeing. Maybe I got the point confused. Should I worry more about the goals of the promotion or the fights my money is paying for?
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Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 14, 2011 7:29 PM EST up reply actions
Not sure why this is so confusing.
-I never said that SF wasn’t striving to be the best. It was an answer to mint saying they just want a small piece of the pie. They already had that. My disagreement is that they absolutely should be trying to supplant the UFC, whether they end up successfully doing it or not. They shouldn’t settle for a small piece of the pie. In other words, they should be doing all they can to try and be #1 and they may in fact be. If they are not, that would mean putting out subpar fights, bad match ups, poor productions, etc…
If you are willing to throw down your money for any half assed promotion that is making poor business decisions and only wanting a small piece of the pie (not saying that is what SF is), then go ahead.
Should you worry about the goals of the promotion? that’s your decision. If SF continues to put out cards with fights like Babalu/Henderson, then I am not going to pay for it. that is just ME. You do what you want. Now if they have a great tourney and it comes to fruition with an exciting PPV, I will be first in line to hand over my $$$.
All I am saying is, that SF should absolutely be trying to compete with the UFC and any other promotion. If they are going to do it, do it all the way. I personally feel that is what they are trying to do, but doubt they will succeed.
Maybe I got the point confused. Should I worry more about the goals of the promotion or the fights my money is paying for?
It’s just my opinion. that is all. If you don’t like it, dont respond. I’m not trying to convince you to think the same way as me or tell you how to spend your money.
Strikeforce's goal is to promote MMA in the same marketplace as the UFC
You’re applying this logic ;
You stick a microphone in a guy’s face and he calls out anyone but a champion, Joe Silva should fax them a pink slip right then
to the business world where it may not be entirely valid. Not wanting to supplant the UFC and producing world class level fights are not mutually exclusive as your argument seems to presuppose.
I don’t understand the personal tone in the last sentence of your reply either.
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"...just when you think you’ve produced your magnum opus, someone shows up and takes a giant shit in your mouth. In your mouth." - Anthony Pace
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 14, 2011 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
It’s not the logic directly, but somewhat. Do I think a fighter should call out the champ after every fight? Of course not, but it should be their ultimate goal, to be the champ. I’m not saying that every fighter will, most won’t even sniff the belt, but I do think that should be their ultimate goal and they should train that way and put forth their maximum effort. If this isn’t the case, I probably wouldn’t have much interest in watching them. I have no problem with failing, but a huge problem with lack of trying.
Same goes for SF. If they don’t have a long term goal of being the best, we probably won’t see them put forth their best effort and thus, their best product. AGAIN, this is not what I am saying they are doing, but it is only a response to mint’s statement that their place is to get a small piece of the pie and be an alternative for the fighters.
When you start out a post with “Gee”, it is in a condescending tone, intended or not. Between that and Balboa’s post, I start to get a more personal tone.
Sorry if this wasn’t the case. i always try to respect everyone’s opinions and just offer my own, without trying to tell anyone that their opinions are wrong or unwanted. If you don’t offer me or any other poster that same respect, then I will change my tone. Again, sorry if that wasn’t the case.
If there was a promotional HW title
then I’d hate on SF for not wanting to earn it.
Doesn’t apply here. SF directly challenging the UFC publicly would be a death-warrant. They’re doing fine.
Contributor at Unintelligent Defense
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"...just when you think you’ve produced your magnum opus, someone shows up and takes a giant shit in your mouth. In your mouth." - Anthony Pace
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 15, 2011 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
and
let me go ahead and apologize to everyone for not jumping on the anti-zuffa Strikeforce bandwagon. These are the same arguments that were given about EXC and Affliction. It is so obvious that people are just looking for something not Zuffa to root for. If this isn’t you, don’t take it personally, but in some cases it is glaringly obvious. And it is no better than the opposite side that roots against anything that isn’t the UFC.
Like I’ve said, put on the fights I want to see and I will pay for them, I don’t care what promotion or letters are on the cage.
The difference is that people knew Affliction and EXC were losing money. That was known. Strikeforce is not. They are not the same company. They don’t operate the same way.
by VirtualBalboa on Jan 14, 2011 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
Of course they don’t. i would hope that they learned from those promotions.
My point is, people are jumping on SF, simply because it is not the UFC. That is ridiculous, just as ridiculous as only supporting the UFC because of it’s name.
I don’t want to see SF on the tombstone, but I also want to see all the best fighters under one promotion or live in a world where they can at least fight each other. I don’t care if SF is #1 or the UFC or whomever. All I care about is seeing the fights I want to see.
This desire of some people for anything "Not Zuffa" is readily apparent
with the comment above mentioning FEG’s willingness to work with Strikeforce. FEG bombed in the timeslot that used to be their biggest night of the year, has issues even paying its fighters, and despite rosy proclamations of world domination, as of late the phrase “PUJI Money” has been more used for comedic effect than in any measure of seriousness. Yet even with all of this, a comment that mentioned that the walking corpse of FEG wants to work more with Strikeforce managed to be rec’d by four people. That’s just sad.
by Enmascarado on Jan 15, 2011 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
What?
Maybe some people are MMA fans and remember the sport before one promotion’s reality TV tricked all the newfans into thinking UFC=MMA. it has nothing to do with “Not-Zuffa” as much as “liking-mma”.
Serious question – how long have you followed MMA and what got you into the sport?
In any event, FEG cooperation is required for an American company who wants to break into the Japanese marketplace.
Contributor at Unintelligent Defense
Lead Blogger at Ninja's Place
"...just when you think you’ve produced your magnum opus, someone shows up and takes a giant shit in your mouth. In your mouth." - Anthony Pace
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 15, 2011 6:01 PM EST up reply actions
I am well aware a japanese company is necessary to do business in Japan, Beebs
But think past that- what does actually working with the slowly dying entity known as JMMA get Strikeforce- really? It isn’t like it is the PRIDE era anymore- at best FEG will need a pretty decent amount of capital to actually continue to run their own show, much less bring over Strikeforce fighters. In the absence of said capital infusion from anywhere else (and no other source is forthcoming as far as anyone can prove) I would guess that said capital would have to come from Strikeforce or its patrons at Showtime. And so, assuming that they can actually find the money to put on a show (whether Puji, Showtime, or wherever) all FEG can really offer then is actually access to Japan as a market, yes? And that would be the market that right now just saw the biggest domestic MMA shows of the year bomb, yes? That is seeing even its traditionally strong minor leagues (such as DEEP) in their own financial troubles, yes? So what is access to Japan actually worth when the shows are costly and yet can’t get the TV revenue they need to actually generate money (TBS most likely not exactly being excited at this point to offer airtime)? I would guess it is not worth that much unless you are willing to bet that JMMA is in a cyclical (as opposed to structural) downturn and then are willing to sink money into supporting your co-promotion with FEG until such time as it might actually be worthwhile as a market (if ever). Would you bet money on that? Would you say it would be worthwhile to a company with limited funds that is attempting to expand and compete in a hostile environment against a large and aggressive competitor?
So yeah, I could give a crap what people think in terms of what promotions they actually like- seriously. But when someone brings up working with FEG as a net positive in this case in terms of competing with the largest current organization, the only word for it is delusion. I hope Japanese MMA survives and I hope that Strikeforce stays a living, working organization. However, magical thinking such as that exhibited above tends to only be supported by those with a pre-existing bias and a need to not face the facts that the worldwide co-promotion they so ardently desire is a really ugly pipedream unless one single company is willing to bear massive short-term costs on its own to bring them all together.
As to how long I have been following MMA, I (to be a cliche) actually watched the first UFC and liked the idea of it, although I was pissed because I thought grappling was totally not real fighting and was convinced that just not the right Kung Fu guy had swept in yet. If I were to date when I actually began following it regularly, I would say UFC 34, when I recall Hughes slamming Newton and me being pissed because I thought they should have given the fight to Carlos since he actually choked Matt out (judo and later submission grappling in the intervening years had made me really appreciate grappling as an art and at the same time sort of embarrassed for my earlier self). How about you?
by Enmascarado on Jan 15, 2011 10:41 PM EST up reply actions
UFC 17 on home video
But the WWF and Ken Shamrock/kids at school talking about it is how I first heard of it. Then later came the UFC video games. Then I watched Final Countdown 2005 at my bosses house and from there got more and more into it.
The Japanese shows from my understanding make money but not enough to keep the business there the way it’s structured working. If SF avoids the yakuza issues and just gives a percentage, I imagine they could turn profitable shows there.
Contributor at Unintelligent Defense
Lead Blogger at Ninja's Place
"...just when you think you’ve produced your magnum opus, someone shows up and takes a giant shit in your mouth. In your mouth." - Anthony Pace
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 16, 2011 2:05 AM EST up reply actions
In my opinion, and I have nothing to really back this up, but I don’t see Strikeforce failing or going under unless they make some sort of huge scandal or mistake. However, I can see them maybe merging with the UFC in the future, but I can’t see them actually going out of business.
I won't jump off the bandwagon just because you lost.
by chrisbboy82 on Jan 14, 2011 10:12 PM EST up reply actions
I could absolutely see the UFC buying them out at some point, if they succeed enough and the tv contracts aren’t included. As for going out of business, I doubt that would happen. They already have a proven track record and could always go back to that model if necessary. I’m not sure where the sentiment that SF will go under in 2011 came from, but in no way do I see that happening.
If Strikeforce is a success on PPV something major could happen in MMA
purely unsupported fannish wishful thinking ; Our Sport is far from finished. It isn’t 20 years old and looking at all other pro sports in the country most of them went through major rule and structure changes within the same time period. Perhaps if SF becomes a more significant player that the UFC can’t get rid of, the companies merge or agree to work together in a way with their partners to choke out all other competition(IE Bellator etc) where there are multiple promotions but one ultimate championship system. AFL-NFL merger. What the Pride purchase promised to deliver but failed to in the end thanks to cultural, business and criminal barriers. In Bieb-land, SF and the UFC merge under one umbrella, move away from the PPV model, and buy out Bellator to serve as an official minor league system.
/nonsense.
Contributor at Unintelligent Defense
Lead Blogger at Ninja's Place
"...just when you think you’ve produced your magnum opus, someone shows up and takes a giant shit in your mouth. In your mouth." - Anthony Pace
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 14, 2011 11:23 PM EST up reply actions
Never gonna happen
But you keep chasing that rainbow
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Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 15, 2011 2:58 AM EST up reply actions
One thing that has to be conceded
is that the sport isn’t done growing or crystallizing yet into it’s adult form. Caterpillar stage. Why do you root against SF so badly though? Is it personal or just because you want all their best guys to be in the UFC and everyone under one roof?
Contributor at Unintelligent Defense
Lead Blogger at Ninja's Place
"...just when you think you’ve produced your magnum opus, someone shows up and takes a giant shit in your mouth. In your mouth." - Anthony Pace
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 15, 2011 3:05 AM EST up reply actions
The latter
And if it wasn’t the UFC, I’d root for whoever was in the lead and did it the right way in relation to drug tests and cooperating with commissions. It’s nothing personal – I want it centralized, where the best fight the best every time out, and the UFC signing every top twenty fighter is getting there as the crow flies.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 15, 2011 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
Do you think PPV can last forever?
Contributor at Unintelligent Defense
Lead Blogger at Ninja's Place
"...just when you think you’ve produced your magnum opus, someone shows up and takes a giant shit in your mouth. In your mouth." - Anthony Pace
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 15, 2011 3:08 AM EST up reply actions
1, not 2 on PPV
I’m all for having free or moderately cheap MMA everywhere, but I really don’t see it as beneficial having the talent split up and both sides charging $50/fight. If it’s a once or twice a year proposition for Strikeforce, I can get on board, but I really don’t want to be shelling out for 2 ppv’s/month.
Me either
Contributor at Unintelligent Defense
Lead Blogger at Ninja's Place
"...just when you think you’ve produced your magnum opus, someone shows up and takes a giant shit in your mouth. In your mouth." - Anthony Pace
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 15, 2011 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
Over nine million buys last year
Sky’s the limit, as far as I’m concerned.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 15, 2011 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
PPV as a stable market fell through for both boxing and wrestling
different businesses with different models, but the business has been stable long term. I don’t think it will ever be the biggest sport if the big “games” cost 50 bucks stateside.
IMO the UFC won’t be on PPV at the end of the next 10 years.
Contributor at Unintelligent Defense
Lead Blogger at Ninja's Place
"...just when you think you’ve produced your magnum opus, someone shows up and takes a giant shit in your mouth. In your mouth." - Anthony Pace
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 15, 2011 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
Rec'd again sir
finally, something logical that somehow points to the fact that atleast SF is winning the battle against Bankruptcy.
I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
But I won’t pick against Jon Jones again until I see him lose. - Kwisatz Haderach
Crap!
Like an idiot I think I accidently hit publish instead of preview, so NOTE; this is a work in progress. I’m out for the night so If the mods could take it down that be great, otherwise know there’s a bunch of missing material and that some of the data presented is very incomplete.
by John Nash on Jan 13, 2011 10:02 PM EST via mobile reply actions
You could take it down yourself, if you still want to. There’s a delete button on the edit fanpost page.
in it's current form before I realized this wasn't the final draft
i still felt it was good enough to post on the forum at my site, something I dont usually do with articles from here very often save front page pieces
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 14, 2011 4:07 AM EST up reply actions
I’ve already rec’d the post, but I was going to say that there were some minor errors. Most notably you’ve seemed to confuse Challengers and Champions cards on several locations, which makes it a little bit confusing.
Overall though, great stuff.
by Horselover Fat on Jan 14, 2011 8:48 AM EST up reply actions
SF turning a profit with the venture is as meaningless as Bjorn Renbey turning a profit. Cosmetically it’s different but functionally it’s the same. The operators of these ventures have always turned a profit (Gary Shaw, Deluca, Jay Larkin, Jeremy Lappen) The question is are the shareholders bankrolling these operations making a profit and in each case the answer is no.
Showtime’s shareholders are paying more than 10 times the market price for non-UFC mma to subsidize the venture… if it was profitable there wouldn’t be such a huge disparity.
MTV2
FSN
HDNET
Showtime
A simple aptitude test of deciphering which one of those do not belong reveals showtime wont be in this business long term.
Strikeforce wont be on the tombstone… but sooner or later showtime MMA will definitely be on it.
The only thing that will take them to the next round will be success on ppv this year or they somehow start getting a million viewers on showtime (which is what their boxing garners). Neither of those are likely.
Even if showtime renews, they’re gonna have to make an even bigger commitment to continue their attempt at competing (throwing away more shareholder money) or accept a feeder league position. I dont see either of those scenarios happening.
Something big needs to happen in the next 12 months for them and that’s why they’re coming out guns a blazin.
ppv will be their last stand and Zuffa’s gonna carpet bomb it.
by mmalogic on Jan 13, 2011 10:17 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
The only thing that will take them to the next round will be success on ppv this year or they somehow start getting a million viewers on Showtime (which is what their boxing garners). Neither of those are likely.
Only the biggest Boxing shows do numbers like that and they come with salaries of 1.5 million per fighter for the head liners. The smaller shows do numbers equivalent to the challengers shows. Showtimes viewer ship is growing while HBO’s is shrinking.
If any thing I think the new deal with M1 is an insurance policy because Showtime is worried that SF is going to move on with out them in a little over a year when the deal is done.
To SF the Showtime + CBS deal looked great when it included CBS. But it probably looks like a boat anchor without.
I agree they’re insuring their investment (with the Fedor deal, etc…) incase the venture becomes viable…. but right now showtime’s shareholders are bankrolling this, not the consumer. Without showtime SF would fire half it’s workforce and go back to being a local show.
Shobox does equivalent numbers but their championship boxing averages around a million viewers. The ratings for SF havent changed since the days of elitexc. More importantly they are competing with another premium channel (HBO) with their boxing… with MMA they’re competing with spike, versus, hdnet, ion, fsn, mtv2, etc… (free basic cable). The programming makes no strategic sense for a premium channel.
And If it was a viable product they wouldnt be paying more than 10 times what the market is willing to pay for non-ufc mma. The disparity at most would be 2 to 1.
The reason why they’re subsidizing it to such an extent is because they want to compete with the UFC and if they cant they will eventually stop. The only way they’re going to compete with the UFC is to have a ppv component.
And the only way they’d get on ppv this year (before they have to sell the board and shareholders on renewing this deal, etc…) is with Fedor. They have to show something this year or by early next.
Initially it was pro-elites sharholders bankrolling this and that didnt last very long. Now it’s showtimes and even though the net losses aren’t nearly as much because of a more efficient operation the clock is still ticking.
The biggest network in the world (CBS) couldnt make non-ufc mma work the chances of showtime doing it is nil. Without ppv success this year, this venture will go the way of every other one before it.
You should wait until I post my updated draft. I go into some detail about Showtime.
by John Nash on Jan 14, 2011 1:37 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
And If it was a viable product they wouldnt be paying more than 10 times what the market is willing to pay for non-ufc mma.
This only makes the slightest bit of sense if you believe that Strikeforce is presenting the same level of product as Bellator and MFC. Of course they aren’t, so it is useless as a talking point. Strikeforce costs more than these other shows because they feature a much higher caliber of fighter.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jan 14, 2011 10:08 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Strikeforce/Bellator
Strikeforce is a little more top-heavy, but most of the talent of Strikeforce/Bellator are fairly equal. MFC is obviously not in the same league, though.
What?
Bellator has some good guys but most of them are unestablished prospects. Bellator is a minor league compared even to SF. MFC is a scrap feeder show that subsists only on the excrement of the UFC.
Contributor at Unintelligent Defense
Lead Blogger at Ninja's Place
"...just when you think you’ve produced your magnum opus, someone shows up and takes a giant shit in your mouth. In your mouth." - Anthony Pace
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 14, 2011 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
And I dont think SF is looking to jump ship anywhere. Bellator has illustrated with it’s mtv2 deal what the market has to offer and it’s shit.
Everyday Coker is kissing Ken Hershman’s feet before he goes to bed.
yea MTV has never shown MMA oriented programming before ever
never ever
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 14, 2011 2:43 AM EST up reply actions
I know you aren't that naive...
to believe Bellator is going to flourish on MTV. Last time three MMA organizations were on cable television during the same period two of them left unwillingly(IFL,EliteXC).
There is absolutely no way the market is large enough to support all three again. One or two will fail. Hopefully it will be just one.
Like, seriously carpet bomb it? Well that's not nice! And it's probably illegal!
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Jan 14, 2011 12:17 AM EST up reply actions
Not the face, do you have any knowledge one what these plants make per post or per hour?
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 14, 2011 12:43 AM EST up reply actions
First off, none of the networks you described have “shareholders,” their parent’s parent umbrella corporations do, and one minor network’s show is not even a blip on the radar screen as far as the shareholders of these giant media conglomerates like Viacom and News Corp. and what not. That leaves the question of whether the networks airing these things are making money (I kind of doubt Sumner Redstone even knows what the fuck StrikeForce is, let alone Bellator).
I have no idea about HDNET. Mark Cuban may be a money-mark here, to use a wrestling term, but I doubt they are paying more than a pittance for most of their rights.
Considering FSN was paying all of $80,000 a show for Bellator, there is no way they did not make that back in advertising in a single two-hour show, before re-airings. It was Bellator that was not making a profit, spending $400,000 to produce said show.
I don’t see how you can even speculate on MTV2 without knowing the details of the business deal. Do you think they expect Bellator to be a money loser for them? Do you know something MTV Networks does not?
But it’s StrikeForce that the OP is talking about, and as for Showtime, it’s harder to gauge since it’s impossible to determine exactly who is buying Showtime for StrikeForce, but considering that they’re considerably expanding the number of StrikeForce events this year, they obviously feel that StrikeForce is making them money, and a fair amount of money at that.
Your argument barely more credible than Sherdog posters posting how StrikeForce is going to fail based on their inferiority to the UFC. Scott Coker has been promotion combat sports for nearly 20 years, and by insider reports per The Wrestler Observer, StrikeForce has been consistently making a profit, irregardless of the inconsistent quality of their shows or M-1 swinging them around by the nuts.
The PPV might end up being a fool’s errand, but they are absolutely in the black enough right now to test the waters without bankrupting themselves.
by Chromium on Jan 14, 2011 2:15 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
logic probably is a sherdog poster
the same guys do all the dirtywork I suspect
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 14, 2011 2:42 AM EST up reply actions
Your argument barely more credible than Sherdog posters
And your counterargument is as credible as a five year old who can’t read.
who’s talking about HDNET, FSN, or MTV2 losing money with MMA? They will all likely stay in the MMA business no matter what promotions come and go because it’s cheap live programming.
My point is if non-UFC mma was viable on showtime, it wouldnt be paying so much more than what the market is willing to pay for non ufc mma. They are paying a lot more because they have to subsidize it. And if it was viable at the price showtime is paying there would be alot more buyers in the market willing to pay alot more than what hdnet or FSN is currently paying.
It’s simple economics.
You dont pay 10 times more than market value for a viable product… If it’s viable at what you’re paying the market would reflect that and at most the disparity would be around 2 to 1
Strikeforce being in the black is as relevant as Bjorn Rebney being in the black. The operators of these ventures have always been in the black.
You keep saying this crap again and again with nothing to back it up.
How is Showtime paying 10x market value for MMA? You think some other promoter can get the same names to fight for $800k/yr instead of $8M? Get real.
SF being in the black is completely different from Shaw and Rebney sucking money from investors. Shaw and Rebney did not get sufficient revenue for their services, because cable TV doesn’t get much revenue. Even a larger network like Spike gets under $0.20/mo in subscriber fees, and ad revenue is roughly similar. Showtime gets $7/mo, so they only need 100k new subscribers for SF to be worth it.
You’re a fool if you think hdnet and FSN value viewers even remotely as high as Showtime.
by Mint on Jan 14, 2011 5:43 AM EST up reply actions 8 recs
+1
I have had a Showtime subscription for MMA only for over a year. I’ve never watched a single show otherwise.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 14, 2011 6:49 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
To a Premium channel, wouldn`t new subscribers be more important than how many of those already having Showtime are actually watching Strikeforce? (I got Showtime cause of Strikeforce too, but if Showtime didn`t “subsidize” the product and I would be left watching Challengers-events, I wouldn`t bother..)
In Sweden there`s a similar scenario with Premier League… People subscribe to the channel that has the rights to that league, rather than to the channel itself. Canal+ lost the rights and subsequently lost a helluvalot of their subscribers to Viasat. The same rights would never be profitable if they were aquired in order to get a decent number of viewers and thus finance it through commercials.
But, there`s prolly something I don`t get here. Just a thought.
If Evil has a name, I`m certain it`s "Ellsworth Monkton Toohey"
by BlueberryMuffin on Jan 14, 2011 7:18 AM EST up reply actions
I wonder how many fans have subscribed just for Strikeforce?
Contributor at Unintelligent Defense
Lead Blogger at Ninja's Place
"...just when you think you’ve produced your magnum opus, someone shows up and takes a giant shit in your mouth. In your mouth." - Anthony Pace
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 14, 2011 7:22 AM EST up reply actions
Would be interesting to know. Maybe none. Maybe a lot? I would presume that Showtime would know… I don`t even know how many subscribers that Showtime has.
If they have 50 million, then MMA-subscribers prolly wouldn`t matter, if they have 5 million, then 50 000 subscribers might matter?
If Evil has a name, I`m certain it`s "Ellsworth Monkton Toohey"
by BlueberryMuffin on Jan 14, 2011 9:29 AM EST up reply actions
I did
And 4 of my friends. And at least 3 people in these comments. It’s adding up.
www.ninjasplace.com
Lol
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 14, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
To a Premium channel, wouldn`t new subscribers be more important than how many of those already having Showtime are actually watching Strikeforce?
Yup. Not only new, but retained also (even if SF stopped contributing to growth at some point, dropping SF would lead to some people dropping their subscription). The only reason viewership matters is that it is sometimes used as a tool to guess how important a show is for the subscriber base.
I got Showtime cause of Strikeforce too, but if Showtime didn`t "subsidize" the product and I would be left watching Challengers-events, I wouldn`t bother..)
Me too. Just shows you how mmalogic’s post is very… illogical.
I’ve never watched a single show otherwise.
You are missing some quality programming.
Showtime has some of the best original shows on cable.
I'm too busy
playing with action figures, shitting on Rios, shilling for Strikeforce and in my spar time from all that, enjoying a little MMA.
Contributor at Unintelligent Defense
Lead Blogger at Ninja's Place
"...just when you think you’ve produced your magnum opus, someone shows up and takes a giant shit in your mouth. In your mouth." - Anthony Pace
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 14, 2011 9:42 PM EST up reply actions
Yo I just realized I've argued with you a bunch but you the dude who used my Machida dragon.
Contributor at Unintelligent Defense
Lead Blogger at Ninja's Place
"...just when you think you’ve produced your magnum opus, someone shows up and takes a giant shit in your mouth. In your mouth." - Anthony Pace
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 15, 2011 2:05 AM EST up reply actions
And your counterargument is as credible as a five year old who can’t read.
And your insult is as original as any other bargain-basement troll’s, although your grasp of either television finances or MMA is retarded either way. I thought I’d keep it more or less civil, even when your arguments have been utterly moronic, but fine.
It’s simple economics.
And yet you can’t be bothered to provide any numbers or economic evidence, or say why StrikeForce, a brand with far more proven drawing power, recognizable names, and coverage-area ratings (ratings within the viewership that can actually see a channel), is anywhere close to being on the same level as Bellator or MFC. You don’t seem to grasp the difference between the ways subscription-based premium cable channels work and basic cable works.
Also, Bjorn Rebney and Bellator have never been “in the black”, they actually lost millions of dollars last year, but that’s besides the point.
Mint pretty much summed everything else up, so I’m not even going to bother.
Something big needs to happen in the next 12 months for them and that’s why they’re coming out guns a blazin.
ppv will be their last stand and Zuffa’s gonna carpet bomb it.
How many fucking times I have heard this from you and I still see SF promoting fights.
I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
But I won’t pick against Jon Jones again until I see him lose. - Kwisatz Haderach
by vivero on Jan 14, 2011 3:58 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Something big needs to happen in the next 12 months for them and that’s why they’re coming out guns a blazin.
Or what? Showtime will drop them? What indicates that’s a possibility? The UFC’s gonna take all their talent? They are dropping guys left and right. Hell, weren’t you out here talking about how Robbie Lawler’s next fight was gonna be in the UFC?
You know nothing.
by VirtualBalboa on Jan 14, 2011 10:27 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I know it's the "in" thing
to bust logics balls and many times he really does have it coming, but I also think a lot of people simply disregard what he is saying instead of thinking about it.
Granted we won’t know until Showtime renews or doesn’t renew the contract with SF, but I’m not willing to stick my fingers in my ears about the failings of MMA on premium cable just because logic said it.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
by Chris Barton on Jan 14, 2011 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
Like I've done for so long now
I digest what logic says, but then I regurgitate it and am left angry and looking at a mess, like after eating bad Indian food.
The problem with reading him is that we know his agenda. It’s less thoughtful perspective than it is propaganda.
"I believe that our founding fathers had it right. We need to get back to their America. No paved roads, rum used as an anesthetic, legalized slavery!"
"Unfortunately, it won’t shut anyone up, but if (the Falcons) get a Lombardi, I’m going to spend all of 2011 not giving a rat’s ass what anyone says." – Dave Choate
by Anthony Pace on Jan 14, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
What are the implications if SF bombs on PPV twice? They are out of large portions of revenue for two shows. Then I would think it wouldn’t be that big of a deal and they would go back to operating in the fashion they are now, realizing that they aren’t ready for PPV. I just don’t see SF failing any time in the next year.
Hardcore MMA fan since UFC 99
by ChiCubs23 on Jan 13, 2011 11:51 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Showtime PPV I don't think will go into PPV without a threat of counter measures against the UFC
There may be a game of chicken, but I think if they go to PPV they will have a strategy to prevent a major card killer. Momma didn’t raise no fool. If they can get 300k buys which if they do this right they can easily(think what Affliction could have done is properly promoted) the game changes forever.
A lot of this here is blind speculation but CBS owns a lot of stations and if the tournament re-engages CBS, they could create a very real threat of a counter promotion against a major UFC card.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 14, 2011 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
300k not Happening
There is no way that if they can’t get 600k people to watch their show on the network that they can get 300k to spend $40-50 for it. I don’t doubt that Coker and Company are turning a nice profit, but the move to PPV reeks of desperation. I don’t know if it’s M-1 wanting more money, or Showtime seeking a higher return, but a Strikeforce PPV is almost guaranteed to bomb. I understand you have to take risks in business to reap the rewards, but you don’t usually take this large of a risk without at least a little bit of desperation.
Shouldn’t have said easily as much as “possibly”
Strikeforce has a much bigger brand than Affliction, and if they parlay this tournament into PPV correctly, 200-300 becomes a good reasonable high end expectation. Showtime PPV’s knows how to sell these things.
Contributor at Unintelligent Defense
Lead Blogger at Ninja's Place
"...just when you think you’ve produced your magnum opus, someone shows up and takes a giant shit in your mouth. In your mouth." - Anthony Pace
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 14, 2011 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
Please explain how...
SF does 300k on PPV. Seriously that is insane. And you have nothing at all that could logically support that notion. In saying that, there is nothing in the history of MMA that could foretell ever seeing that.
by Crazynutts on Jan 14, 2011 8:57 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Here`s a wild guess… The ones that watch a Strikeforce event are the very same people that buy UFC-events. How many of those that are willing to pay 49:95 for Machida vs Rampage would be willing to pay 49:95 for an event featuring Fedor vs Overeem? My guess is a lot.
Here in Sweden, you don`t have to subscribe to a channel in order to be able to order a pay-per-view, which means that there are actually MORE people that can watch a PPV-game than a regular game. Might be very different overseas, what do I know…
If Evil has a name, I`m certain it`s "Ellsworth Monkton Toohey"
by BlueberryMuffin on Jan 14, 2011 9:34 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I’m curious about how many Strikeforce fans are the same hardcore fans that form the core buyrate for UFC PPV’s. Strikeforce seems to market itself to casual viewers, but it isn’t really working so far.
I’m also curious how many of those core 200k are “Internet hardcores” who watch all MMA and how many are UFC loyalists who stick to the brand.
Also, just to throw it out there – the two Affliction PPV’s did 100k and 90k. I’m guessing only Internet hardcores bought those cards, so a Strikeforce PPV should do similar numbers. Maybe slightly higher, since that was 2 years ago.
Viewers?
I’ve got friends that have seen 90% of the last 60 UFC cards that could care less about Strikeforce. My problem with it is Showtime sucking. I bought Showtime just to watch Strikeforce for over a year and there just weren’t enough cards to keep it. The Challenger’s are in a time slot that involves sleep for me unless it’s something big, like a main Strikeforce/UFC card and most Challenger’s events are similar to what I see on HDnet for free.
Obviously most people do
Look at the ratings for the Challengers series and tell me there aren’t either a lot of people sleeping or not giving a shit. They average 150k-300k viewers, which may be a good number for the slot, maybe not, but out of the 8-15m subscribers (not sure which number to believe), that’s a very small piece of the pie.
You don't watch Dexter?
You’re missing out, bro. Californication is pretty good, too. But Dexter is where the clutch money’s at.
"I believe that our founding fathers had it right. We need to get back to their America. No paved roads, rum used as an anesthetic, legalized slavery!"
"Unfortunately, it won’t shut anyone up, but if (the Falcons) get a Lombardi, I’m going to spend all of 2011 not giving a rat’s ass what anyone says." – Dave Choate
by Anthony Pace on Jan 14, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I concede the point
"I believe that our founding fathers had it right. We need to get back to their America. No paved roads, rum used as an anesthetic, legalized slavery!"
"Unfortunately, it won’t shut anyone up, but if (the Falcons) get a Lombardi, I’m going to spend all of 2011 not giving a rat’s ass what anyone says." – Dave Choate
by Anthony Pace on Jan 14, 2011 8:55 PM EST up reply actions
Seen a little of dexter
don’t think it was on my TV though, somebody’s house or the internet or something. Sokay.
Contributor at Unintelligent Defense
Lead Blogger at Ninja's Place
"...just when you think you’ve produced your magnum opus, someone shows up and takes a giant shit in your mouth. In your mouth." - Anthony Pace
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 15, 2011 3:07 AM EST up reply actions
you gotta watch the whole series
"I believe that our founding fathers had it right. We need to get back to their America. No paved roads, rum used as an anesthetic, legalized slavery!"
"Unfortunately, it won’t shut anyone up, but if (the Falcons) get a Lombardi, I’m going to spend all of 2011 not giving a rat’s ass what anyone says." – Dave Choate
by Anthony Pace on Jan 15, 2011 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
If promoted right, that is why I think 300k could be the max they could do
that was a long time ago now and there are a lot more regular PPV buyers of MMA now. if Affliction could do that much back then with bad promotion, Strikeforce promoted right could possibly get that high.
Contributor at Unintelligent Defense
Lead Blogger at Ninja's Place
"...just when you think you’ve produced your magnum opus, someone shows up and takes a giant shit in your mouth. In your mouth." - Anthony Pace
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 14, 2011 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the hardcore "base" has expanded over the past 2 years
I count myself among that group
"I believe that our founding fathers had it right. We need to get back to their America. No paved roads, rum used as an anesthetic, legalized slavery!"
"Unfortunately, it won’t shut anyone up, but if (the Falcons) get a Lombardi, I’m going to spend all of 2011 not giving a rat’s ass what anyone says." – Dave Choate
by Anthony Pace on Jan 14, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
not as insane as you think
Contributor at Unintelligent Defense
Lead Blogger at Ninja's Place
"...just when you think you’ve produced your magnum opus, someone shows up and takes a giant shit in your mouth. In your mouth." - Anthony Pace
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 14, 2011 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
interest expenses
Nice piece!
However, since you pointed out that high debt was and is a quite heavy burden for companies – have you got any idea how leveraged Strikeforce might be? Eventhough their EBITDA might be a couple of MUSD as suggested, the bottom line might be quite affected by interest expenses.
Here’s an Article from the LA Times about Showtime.
The Showtime formula has helped it add viewers while rivals lost them. The network has nearly 19 million subscribers, an increase of 37% over the last five years. That’s quite a feat during a recession, when strapped consumers have been cutting back and while its chief competition, HBO and sister channel Cinemax, lost about 1.5 million subscribers last year.
Showtime, which at first seemed an odd fit within its corporate parent, is now a major source of profit.
CBS’ Showtime Networks, with includes Showtime, TMC and Flix, should generate more than $1.4 billion in revenue in 2011, according to Kagan. The firm estimated that the channels this year would haul in more than $530 million in operating income.
The deal with Strikeforce is worth 24mil. over 3 years (8mil. per year).
by KOQ24 on Jan 14, 2011 7:51 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Impressive stuff by Showtime!
If Evil has a name, I`m certain it`s "Ellsworth Monkton Toohey"
by BlueberryMuffin on Jan 14, 2011 9:37 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t know, but I haven’t read anything to suggest that they are carrying that much of a debt load. In fact, one thing that I find very promising is that I have yet to see a story about them raising capital. While sometimes it’s a good thing, especially when a company is trying to expand, in MMA it seems to be the first sign a promotion is unable to meet it’s financial responsibilities.
new invester stories with hardcore fannish optimism
precedes bankruptcy rumors by about 12 months it seems
Contributor at Unintelligent Defense
Lead Blogger at Ninja's Place
"...just when you think you’ve produced your magnum opus, someone shows up and takes a giant shit in your mouth. In your mouth." - Anthony Pace
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 14, 2011 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
Impressive stuff by Showtime!
If Evil has a name, I`m certain it`s "Ellsworth Monkton Toohey"
by BlueberryMuffin on Jan 14, 2011 9:36 AM EST reply actions
Good write up
Nice research, nice presentation.
I like the 2nd to last paragraph the most where remind that what you did is still speculation, but by backing it with what you presented and now seeing some of the other news about Showtime above, all good things.
www.ninjasplace.com
Somewhat off-topic, but does anyone know what type of relationship Showtime had with the WFA? I know they aired hype show for the WFA King of the Streets PPV, but I’m wondering if they also had a hand in the PPV production. My guess would be no, but it was a long time ago and my memory isn’t that great.
nottheface
Do you have an idea of where the M-1 kickbacks come from? Obviously Showtime, but I wonder if that is factored into Showtime’s “Strikeforce budget”, if such a specific thing exists. I also wonder if they get a chunk of live gate (probably).
"I believe that our founding fathers had it right. We need to get back to their America. No paved roads, rum used as an anesthetic, legalized slavery!"
"Unfortunately, it won’t shut anyone up, but if (the Falcons) get a Lombardi, I’m going to spend all of 2011 not giving a rat’s ass what anyone says." – Dave Choate
From various sources on the web I’ve gathered that M-1 gets all the foreign rights to Fedor’s fights and that a big cut of ppv which is why they were so intent on having one. As for the gate, it’s been said time and time again that M-1 gets 50% of the gate but I really can’t find anything to confirm that at all. I think it’s a something attributed to their deals based on Dana saying why cut them half? My guess is that a good chunk of the Fedor/M-1 deal is done with Showtime and not Strikeforce, but truthfully I have no idea. I’m just inferring from what I’ve read. This is something you’d be better off asking Snowden, Brookehouse, or Supremacy .
I need Supremacy to start coming around here more often again
"I believe that our founding fathers had it right. We need to get back to their America. No paved roads, rum used as an anesthetic, legalized slavery!"
"Unfortunately, it won’t shut anyone up, but if (the Falcons) get a Lombardi, I’m going to spend all of 2011 not giving a rat’s ass what anyone says." – Dave Choate
by Anthony Pace on Jan 14, 2011 8:56 PM EST up reply actions
The M-1 kick backs are very likely what they paid to play in order to be a partner in the co-promotion. So in other words if they got $1M for the kick back that was probably used as a 1 million dollar contribution to the co-promotion.
If you remember back to the Miami show that was the only show I can think of where SF lost money. M1 was pissed because they lost money as well. That was one of the reasons why they pulled Fedor from the next show.
How did they lose money on the Miami card? I don’t recall any M-1 guys fighting on that card, but it’s been a while.
"I believe that our founding fathers had it right. We need to get back to their America. No paved roads, rum used as an anesthetic, legalized slavery!"
"Unfortunately, it won’t shut anyone up, but if (the Falcons) get a Lombardi, I’m going to spend all of 2011 not giving a rat’s ass what anyone says." – Dave Choate
by Anthony Pace on Jan 14, 2011 8:58 PM EST up reply actions
Nice post.
Nottheface! I didn’t notice any mention of M-1 Global in the financial breakdown. I understand Fedor only fought 1 time this year. It is a fair assumption that M-1 Global is gonna demand a much larger percentage of the pie than even Overeem would demand.
Another area I didnt see was liability insurance. I would imagine the cost of it would have to be enormous. Anytime Strikeforce doesn’t fight in San Jose, it cost them much more. When San Jose is used they actually make money off themselves. But a closer look at the numbers tells you that Strikeforce only held 3 out of 15 events in San Jose. Thus the expenses are much higher than at home.
I find this sort post to be interesting. The only true way to see if Strikeforce is gonna stick around is time. Time will tell.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
Thank you. I basically kept M-1 out of it because:
1) I have no clue what they are actually costing Strikeforce
2) If I were to guess, it would be that most of the costs fall on Showtimes lap
As for insurance, it was one of those catch-alls I put in to operating expenses, which of course, I didn’t include in their event-to-event costs (although I did note it). As for the site fee, I actually put down a $125,000 location fee for every event, which is probably way overpriced, when I did my own balance sheet trying to come up with realistic numbers. This was even for events at the HP. I’ve also heard that Strikeforce cuts better deals with other sites do to their connections through Silicon Valley, but I didn’t change my numbers to reflect, deciding it best to be conservative.
Overall, it’s a very rough estimate based on very limited information, that really only tells me that they aren’t losing a bunch of money like their ill-fated predecessors. And a big reason for their cost effectiveness is a lot of the stuff that they are criticized the most for: handing over production to Showtimen, using local fighters on the prelims, not taping the prelims, doing little in the way of advertising, etc.
Who knows if they’re going to last but at least we know that they probably won’t suddenly implode.
Scripted programming is hella expensive. But it can have syndication value that can come in for years.
BTW Sarah Palin makes 1/4 million a week for that Alaska show.
It would be worth it if the show was better.
And yeah, funny how networks keep crap on the air longer so they can sell it in syndication.
HBO Sunday Night programming lives forever in people Netflix accounts, and season DVD sales in brick and mortal stores
They can afford shows that cost more than indie movies.
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
Small piece missing.
There is a piece missing in the expenses but I don’t know how we could estimate it. Fighters like Marloes and Overeem are paid very small amounts for tax purposes and that is what is reported by the AC. However money is paid to their camp and that money makes it to the fighter.
locker room bonus scenario
Contributor at Unintelligent Defense
Lead Blogger at Ninja's Place
"...just when you think you’ve produced your magnum opus, someone shows up and takes a giant shit in your mouth. In your mouth." - Anthony Pace
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 14, 2011 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
Pay Scale
I don’t know, but would imagine that the payouts are not all of the payroll for everybody. Maybe not, but I bet there are signing bonuses and other forms of compensation that are not on the athletic commissions’ books. It is well known by now that the UFC pays significant amounts of money to a lot of fighter’s that is never reported, so I doubt Strikeforce could hold onto any top talent without similar practices.
This is true. I brought it up under the caveat of “unreported bonuses”, which for the top fighters can’t be quit substantial. Fortunately for Strikeforce, only Fedor is in with the top 6 or so UFC fighters. The only other really high priced fighters – Hendo and maybe Overeem – might be on the top 20-25 in the UFC.
Strikeforce has also been very creative in getting sponsors to help subsidize fighters pay. Look at the how prominent the logos are on the fighters’ shorts on their posters. Or in the case of Hendo, count how often you see ClinchGear.
by John Nash on Jan 15, 2011 12:46 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Strikeforce has also been very creative in getting sponsors to help subsidize fighters pay. Look at the how prominent the logos are on the fighters’ shorts on their posters. Or in the case of Hendo, count how often you see ClinchGear.
THIS
Contributor at Unintelligent Defense
Lead Blogger at Ninja's Place
"...just when you think you’ve produced your magnum opus, someone shows up and takes a giant shit in your mouth. In your mouth." - Anthony Pace
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 15, 2011 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
StrikeForce is good and can be great
But they have a long ways to go before they are competing on a legitimate level with the UFC.
For every right thing that they do, something always seems to happen. In the last half of 09 and early part of 2010, they got the CBS deal, they got Fedor, they got Henderson, Fedor won his first fight, somewhere in there they put together the talent sharing deal with DREAM, they crowned Middleweight and Welterweight champions. Meanwhile, UFC’s cash cows Lesnar and GSP were out for injuries, and the whole later part of 09 and early part of 2010 featured UFC PPVs that were plagued by injuries keeping high profile fighters out of action, which resulted in less than stunning buyrates.
But then the momentum swung. GSP returned in March and Lesnar in July, ultimately leading to a stretch from UFC 111 to the end of the year where only a single PPV event(119) did less than 500 thousand buys, with 3 doing over 1 million. Henderson was squashed in his first fight, their middleweight champion Jake Shields then left for the UFC, leaving their middleweight division without a champion again, and the April CBS card in general was a disappointment, which was made worse with the brawl. Their 205 champ who was on an epic win streak lost in the first defense of his title, and then the new champion lost in his first defense, leaving nobody looking that spectacular. Fedor was submitted by Fabricio Werdum and M-1 went back into epic contract negotiations.
So, on top of the problems of circumstance StrikeForce suffers from in general which keeps them from competing with the UFC on a promotional and exposure level, they also stuggle in every division but heavyweight to compete as far as relevance goes. The 205 and 170 divisions are almost completely dominated by the UFC top to bottom. The UFC also now hosts the 135 and 145 divisions, and has the majority of the top guys in those divisions, and StrikeForce has no foothold in either of those divisions.
CPG
Alistair Overeem - StrikeForce HeavyWeight Champion, K-1 2010 World Grand Prix Champion, DREAM Interim HeavyWeight Champion
I want SF to leave the smaller divisions alone and focus on the divisions they have.
I hate it though when promotions are faulted for competitive and compelling match making. All their favorites lost, but that just means 205 isn’t as bare as it was once thought, and they have threats to Fedor. While it steals momentum I guess, it means the product is better for a fan of the sport. Catch 22. If they had came through and trashed everyone the divisions would be held in much less regard than they are now.
Contributor at Unintelligent Defense
Lead Blogger at Ninja's Place
"...just when you think you’ve produced your magnum opus, someone shows up and takes a giant shit in your mouth. In your mouth." - Anthony Pace
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 15, 2011 12:17 AM EST up reply actions
The UFC doesn’t have the women’s divisions. Before any one says the women don’t matter you need to look at the break downs of the viewership numbers when the ladies fight first. There is a reason why there are a bunch of new ladies comming into SF.
That is true
StrikeForce is doing big things with woman’s MMA, and the UFC has no foothold there.
CPG
Alistair Overeem - StrikeForce HeavyWeight Champion, K-1 2010 World Grand Prix Champion, DREAM Interim HeavyWeight Champion
by Chris Groves on Jan 15, 2011 1:21 AM EST up reply actions
Brilliant Matchmaking
I think this goes to show how brilliant of a matchmaker Joe Silva is. Granted, it is much easier when you have 200 of the best fighters at your disposal but he always wins. When’s the last time the UFC had a Shields/Henderson situation? It’s not that the favorite always wins in the UFC, but no matter who seems to win we aren’t left scratching our balls and wondering what happens next.
The last time I can recall is probably Bisping/Henderson, when the UFC spent 10 weeks promoting fighter on TUF who only had one fight on his contract and then put him on the biggest card they’d ever held in a number one contender’s match where he won with the KO of the year.
by John Nash on Jan 15, 2011 11:19 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
When’s the last time the UFC had a Shields/Henderson situation?
This is pretty funny. The UFC favorites have lost so often they don’t even try to predict anymore who will win.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jan 18, 2011 12:34 AM EST up reply actions

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