The Strikeforce Heavyweight Tournament Is a Great Idea, but It's Not a Tournament
by Nate Wilcox on Jan 10, 2011 9:02 PM EST
in Strikeforce Analysis
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Scott Coker has succeeded in changing the narrative about his heavyweight division in remarkably quick fashion. It's a pretty remarkable sleight-of-hand trick when you consider that all Strikeforce has really announced is a February card featuring Fedor Emelianenko vs Antonio Silva and Andrei Arlovski vs Sergei Kharitonov.
The former is a middling big deal, the latter, outside the context of the "tournament", not so much.
The second installment of the tournament is expected to feature Fabricio Werdum vs Alistair Overeem and Josh Barnett vs Brett Rogers in March.
But let's get real, this isn't actually a tournament. Coker has just let the fans in on his hoped for matchmaking for his heavyweight division for the rest of the year. A real tournament would feature the strongest seeds against the weakest seeds with the goal of setting up a final round between the #1 and #2 fighters. By stacking Overeem, Werdum and Fedor all on one half of the bracket, Coker has shown that his focus is where it ought to be -- on putting together the best possible fights now.
Also, despite its name, this is not a Grand Prix as we've traditionally known GP's in MMA history. Pride, who set the standard during their decade in existence, ran GP's with one night of quarterfinal fights then a second night a couple of months later featuring both the semi-finals and final rounds. Coker knows that attempting a Pride style GP in the U.S. with this cast of heavyweights is not possible.
Right now the biggest question mark remains Josh Barnett's credentials. The heavyweight has not fought in the U.S. since failing a drug test in California in 2009. He has not been re-licensed in California.
Coker talked to Sherdog radio and outlined his damn the torpedos approach regarding Barnett (transcription via Fight Opinion):
JACK ENCARNACAO: "Scott, without venues locked down or even all the licensing in place for the Barnett and Overeem fights, why announce the tournament already if you're not 100%? You might be 90% sure that you can get Barnett and Overeem in the cage in March or as part of this tournament, especially Barnett."
SCOTT COKER: "Well, no, we never said that he's fighting in March. I'm not sure where you got that, but... you know, Barnett has his issues in California, guys, we all know it. We've all been through that dance and he's got to go back and deal with it some more. But, you know, to me, here's a guy that has been, uh, out of the cage or, you know, out of the ring for, in North America, for a year and a half and, you know, I feel like he's paid his time, he's paid his dues, let the guy make a living. You know and his history before Strikeforce is his past and, you know, we're going to judge him on what he does now and six weeks ago he went to (the) California (state athletic commission) in Sacramento in the offices and, you know, he tested clean for all, you know, all their battery of tests that they ran on him and he's not on suspension, so why can't he fight? And, you know, some commissions still feel like, you know, we want to wait until he gets through the process in California but, you know, there are commissions out there saying, ‘Look, you know, have him come in, let him take the test, and if he's clean then we'll let him fight.' So, you know, we're going to work with those commissions that are welcoming him and us but Josh, guys, Josh is going to be part of this tournament and we're going to move on and I think Josh has moved on and I think everybody should move on as well."
Zach Arnold discussed the still unsolved puzzle presented by including Champion Alistair Overeem in the tournament and what that means about the duration of the fights:
When asked about whether or not Alistair Overeem will put the Strikeforce heavyweight title on the line for each tournament bout he's involved in, Mr. Coker said that there are issues right now regarding uniformity in round and rules structure for the tournament fights. In other words, title fights are five rounds under the Unified rules and most non-title fights are three rounds. Jordan Breen, a proponent of five-round non-title bouts, has noted in the past that a promoter at any time can petition a commission (such as Nevada's) to get a five round non-title fight sanctioned. Mr. Coker said that when he presented the idea of all the tournament fights being five rounds, he received push back from various athletic commissions on the matter. The big question now is how to have Alistair Overeem in the tournament if his fights are for the title and are five rounds long while everyone else is fighting in three round fights. Mr. Coker stated that his goal is for the tournament winner to be the Strikeforce Heavyweight champion. He also noted that he would like the Josh Barnett/Brett Rogers fight on the same card alongside the Overeem/Werdum fight.
I'll be rooting for Coker to solve these two puzzles and pull off his tournament as planned. I won't be holding my breath.
Overeem spoke to MMA Junkie about the brackets:
"Tournament or no tournament, Werdum was going to be my first fight in Strikeforce," Overeem said.
...
"All the fighters in that tournament are good, so there are no easy fights," he said. "I'm a little surprised about it, and I don't know why this bracket is designed this way, but my job is to fight. I'm not picking opponents, so if that's the way they made the bracket, so be it."
...
"I can show the American fans that I'm the No. 1 fighter of Strikeforce," he said. "Entering such a tournament is not only great for the MMA fans but also a great way to prove that I'm the best fighter in the world."
If Overeem emerges victorious at the other end of this tournament he'll likely be ranked the #1 heavyweight in the world in the USAT/SBN Consensus MMA Rankings, especially with UFC champ Cain Velasquez sidelined with a torn rotator cuff for most of the year.
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He is being honest.
I for one knew it wasn’t a true tournament when the seeding was announced. But I really hope everything works out and the fights are each 5 rounds.
the way it is structured works perfectly and works better in the long run.
I mean imagine wat would happen if arlovski sergei or even Rogers were to upset Werdum, Fedor, or Alistair.
The way it is structured minimizes the risks of those upsets happenin.
I do find it odd that the four best fighters are one the same side of the brackets.
It kind of makes for a dud of a final regardless of what happens.
As is we get two, possibly three really good fights.
Overeem vs Werdum
Fedor vs the winner of Overeem / Werdum
If Big Foot pulls off the upset, the epic match ups are done after round one.
But it also legitimises the Strikeforce Heavyweight Belt, something they, as an organisation, have been in dire need of.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jan 10, 2011 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
Nothing could legitimize any of the Strikeforce titles outside of unifying with the UFC equivalents.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
by Mike Fagan on Jan 10, 2011 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
That's insane
This doesn’t legitimize their title?
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Head Kick Legend
by Neil Manich on Jan 10, 2011 3:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
“Legitimacy” for some on the Internet is purely about branding. Let them have it.
by yarky1 on Jan 10, 2011 3:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
To me
all a title means (in any organization) is that within that promotion, that guy is top dog. He’s getting top billing, and he’s the guy that everyone wants to fight.
This tournament, while a bit unorthodox and maybe even a tad gimmicky, provides a structured environment for the SF title picture, which has quite a bit to do with branding. Their HW division is easily their strongest, and at the end of this tournament, you will have a world ranked fighter that sits atop the division.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Jan 10, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
This is how I feel too
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
It’s sad, but that’s really the state of discussion of MMA on the Internet. People are so caught up in carrying water for their favorite promoter that they pretty much abandon all thought.
easy
Don’t go that far. Fagan has been reasonable in this discussion overall. I don’t get his line of thinking in this thread but also in this discussion he defended this tournament.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
I think the tournament is awesome. I don’t see any faults with it.
As for the belts, there’s a couple of reasons why I refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of other belts.
-After Pride fell, the UFC became the only superpower in MMA.
-UFC champions emerged (eventually) as the number one ranked fighters in every division.
-For better or worse, Zuffa holds a near-monopoly on talent in the sport. (Though I fully admit they are weakest at heavyweight in this regard.)
Now, that isn’t to say that the winner of this tournament doesn’t have an argument as the best heavyweight fighter on the planet. But in my eyes, it has nothing to do with holding the Strikeforce title. This is a title that went undefended for 3 years, and the last challenger for the belt was coming off a loss and (in my eyes, generously) ranked as the number 8 fighter in the world.
Someone else expressed similar sentiments in the comments, but I generally find title belts superfluous, especially in MMA where they are commissioned by promotions. Still the Zuffa titles are the most prestigious in the sport, by far.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
by Mike Fagan on Jan 10, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
BUT this tournament will finally cement Strikeforce's title as the legitimate Lineal title
GAME CHANGER
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 4:55 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I hope you see the humor in this.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 10, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
I guess I just look at it as “Alistair Overeem has an argument as the number on heavyweight fighter in the world as the lineal champion.” I don’t see it as the Strikeforce title assuming the prestige and history of the other belts that came before it.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
Well, since SF is the one who is making all this happen, this is no different than when Coleman took it over when he won the first Pride GP
Pride was an upstart then too. SF will become an official major league with this tournament.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
I think that’s a very optimistic way at looking at this tournament.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
by Mike Fagan on Jan 10, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
How is this different than the first Pride GP in function?
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
Well, it’s hard to fully argue without easy-to-access rankings from the time period, but I also think it’s too narrowly pinning the growth of Pride on one event. Pride was the big leagues because it was able to throw out very large sums of money for talent from top-to-bottom.
Strikeforce isn’t a major league just because they’ve set up a cool heavyweight tournament. The disparity in talent between them and the UFC is astronomical.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
And you are very negative.
Strikeforce has a far bether HW division and the so called baddest man on the planet got exposed twice. The future will prove that Brock Lesnar was never close to number 1, and so can Cain NEVER be the number 1. Brock isn´t even close to top 10 if you ask me!
UFC is protecting fighters by only letting them fight in their own organisation. It took Alistair only 19 second to make short work of a former UFC fighter. ´UFC is a different animal´ was not the case at all.
If you know something about MMA you could clearly see no one can take Alistair Overeem at the moment and i am happy to see him be the number 1 at the end of the year so the UFC hypetrain comes to an end!
It disappoints me when some vocal people in cyberspace hide behind a pseudonym and make malicious and baseless attacks against athletes that have never failed a screen for banned substances. These keyboard toxicologists think that they can merely look at an athlete and "know" that so-and-so is a "juicer." There is a term for that. It's called "delusions of grandeur," and medication may help. (Dr. Johnny Benjamin)
bether is better
It disappoints me when some vocal people in cyberspace hide behind a pseudonym and make malicious and baseless attacks against athletes that have never failed a screen for banned substances. These keyboard toxicologists think that they can merely look at an athlete and "know" that so-and-so is a "juicer." There is a term for that. It's called "delusions of grandeur," and medication may help. (Dr. Johnny Benjamin)
It took Alistair only 19 second to make short work of a former UFC fighter.
Who?
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
by Chris Barton on Jan 11, 2011 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
Duffee.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 11, 2011 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
Have you recently succumbed to a head injury?
I only ask because you seem to have recently started to talk of Strikeforce in the same manner that certain people did with EliteXC and Affliction. Seriously, you think this tournament will turn Strikeforce into the American Pride?
Wow, I feel like I’m reading something on Sherdog.
I hope everything works out fine with this tournament. But for fuck sake the delusions of grandeur are killing me.
Pride was hardly OMG PRIDE
in 2000. This is the closest thing to an American Pride we can ask for. They ARE a major league. How could they not be? Affliction was a short lived major league too. So was the USFL and the AFL in football.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 6:12 PM EST up reply actions
If this becomes a success on CBS,
I’m on board. Or at least some type of national televised broadcast. If they turn into a PPV model it is really going to suck for all of us. I hate buying UFC PPVs as it is.
Whoa, like, wut?
Come on. It is literally impossible for any other organization to become “major League” while the UFC has control of the percentage of high end talent that hey currently do. IMPOSSIBLE! that’s in caps bro.
"Who are you and how the hell did you get in here?"
"I'm a locksmith... and i'm a locksmith."
1. I don’t think analogy to nations has any utility here. Doesn’t help us understand anything, and actively muddles things.
2. At HW, that acknowledgment was very questionable, and probably more a result of the UFC’s marketing success and superiority at every other weight class than anything else.
3. Zuffa’s near-monopoly of top talent at WW, LHW, and to a lesser extent the other non-HW divisions is irrelevant.
I’m entirely on board with the idea that titles in general don’t mean a lot in MMA (especially given the fact that they are all essentially club championships). But to say that SF’s HW belt is inherently illegitimate because of the superiority of the UFC’s roster of WWs to SF’s or even the UFC’s superior publicity campaigns really makes no sense to me. “Prestige” is a fuzzy concept and varies with the person perceiving it. Personally, I think that the belt that is defended throughout the tournament will, by the end, be more prestigious than the one taken off Lesnar.
Also
Would you at least agree that it increases the legitimacy of the SF belt?
You do realize that the UFC/Zuffa has
had the #1 ranked HW for all of maybe 7 months, over the last decade or so?
Cain’s claim to #1 is beating Zombie Nog and an exposed (and almost hilariously over-ranked #2) Lesnar – aside from the inertia that any #1 has in a ranking system, he would have a pretty weak claim on it should Fedor, Reem or Werdum emerge victorious from this.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Jan 11, 2011 3:03 AM EST up reply actions
He's over-ranked
now that he lost right? rolls eyes
by Anton Tabuena on Jan 11, 2011 4:48 AM EST up reply actions
Just a loss wouldn't necessarily drop him farther
it was the manner of the loss – total domination, as well as the fact he was dominated in his previous fight until Carwin gassed.
I wasn’t among those saying Lesnar didn’t deserve to be #1 after Fedor lost, but there is no way he should be #2 after those last 2 performances…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Jan 11, 2011 9:44 AM EST up reply actions
What the
He WON in one of those performances.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
by Chris Barton on Jan 11, 2011 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
Dude
He used to be a fucking pro wrestler.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 11, 2011 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
esp at heavyweight
which owes its legitimacy to the perception that Brock Lesnar is a bad bad man.
the Sylvia > Couture > Lesnar > Cain sequence doesn’t have any more legitimacy than a hypothetical Fedor > Werdum > Overeem sequence.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jan 10, 2011 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Less in fact
Assuming that legitimacy has something to do with the quality of the guys fighter for the belt and its lineage. I mean, that’s after the tournament. At the moment, the UFC’s belt has a better lineage and has had better fighters fighting for it, which is why the other guy was saying that the tournament legitimizes the SF belt.
I think that’s silly. Overeem’s HW resume is still really, really shitty – not in the same conversation with Timmay’s.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 10, 2011 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
But look at the rookies like Carwin and Lesnar and Cain who have a bunch of fights with cans and a few top wins
JDS for that matter. Overeem after this tournament would have a similar record but also the K-1 title. the losses would still be there, but his HW record since 2007 would be comparable. Can’t be denied Subo.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 4:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Lesnar has a bunch of fights with cans?
Do tell. Cain has back to back wins over Nog and Lesnar, Carwin beat Gonzaga (better than any HW Overeem has currently beat) and Mir (solid top ten HW no matter what anyone says), and JDS knocked out the arguable #1 seed in this tournament. I don’t think Cain should fall in the rankings because of injury.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 10, 2011 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
I knew I shoulda disclaimered Lesnuts
You get the point and dancing like this doesn’t obscure that
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Nothing – nothing – obscures the fact that Overeem’s HW resume in MMA is shit right now.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 10, 2011 5:32 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I wouldn't hate Rogers or Duffee's chances against Gonzaga
Especially at the time that Overeem fought Rogers, where everyone considered him better for putting on a good show against Fedor.
Also, Buentello was not in a bad spot at all when he fought/got owned by Overeem.
CPG
Alistair Overeem - StrikeForce HeavyWeight Champion, K-1 2010 World Grand Prix Champion, DREAM Interim HeavyWeight Champion
by Chris Groves on Jan 10, 2011 9:45 PM EST up reply actions
IIRC
Rogers actually went up 1 spot initially (from 6 to 5) after his competitive loss to Fedor…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Jan 11, 2011 9:42 AM EST up reply actions
True
beating the #8 HW and dominating the #9 HW throughout doesn’t mean anything in Subo-world, where beating Mir or Zombie Nog means so much more…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Jan 11, 2011 9:41 AM EST up reply actions
How on earth
could you make the argument Werdum is the #1 seed in that tournament? Because he won a #1 contenders fight? Really?
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Jan 11, 2011 3:18 AM EST up reply actions
Mir is top ten? Lol
I was going to post about how fraudulent Brock’s credentials really are but got sidetracked when you mentioned Mir. There is no greater example of manufactured “credibility” than Mir, even over Brock.
Mir was the UFC heavyweight champ first when it was a complete joke consisting of Sylvia, Arlovski and pretty much no one -else while all if the top heavies were in Pride. He became the heavyweight champion by beating Wes Sims twice (a guy so fantastic he couldn’t even make it through TUF and one of those wins was by DQ for An illegal stomp by Sims), losing decisively to a relative no name that Andrei Arlovski destroyed, and caught a then 8-8 Tank in a toehold. That vaunted resume got Mir a title shot against Sylvia where he lucked out when Sylvia basically handed Mir his arm. So for the record his title and title run was based on a loss to mediocre at best fighter, two “wins” one only by luck DQ over a TUF first round loser, and beat the grossly overranked 8-8 Tank before catching Sylvia.
Then after coming back from his accident, he lost two out of three with one boring decision against a noname, before he lucked out again against Brock. Since that miracle win over Brock he somehow became Top Ten by the Zuffa marketing machine and had gone 3-2 with a win over Zombie Nog and Zombie Crocop (neither of which he would beat in their primes) and kickboxer with zero other skills Kongo while getting destroyed by Carwin and Brock.
This is a Top Ten guy? Why? Because the Zuffa Marketing told you so?
by Warpear on Jan 11, 2011 11:06 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I like
how when Mir beats good fighters you just discredit them. It makes your silly spin sound much more legit in your head I bet.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
by Chris Barton on Jan 11, 2011 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
Good fighters?
The only good fighters that Mir beat when they are healthy are arguably Sylvia and Lesnar. Big Nog probably shouldn’t have been medically cleared to fight and is showing more than a few signs that his best is well behind him. Crocop was a bad bad man…before Gabriel Gonzaga (a UFC releasee) knocked his head off. Whether age or mental issue (probably both) Crocop has shown no signs of being the fearsome fighter he was in Pride.
by Warpear on Jan 11, 2011 2:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Actual, I am surprised to find myself coming to the realization that after this ‘tournament’ that the Strikeforce HW champion will be the most legitimate of all champions. Not only will that person hold the Strikeforce belt, but they will also hold the lineal Elite XC, UFC, and Pride belts as well and that person will be the actual lineal champion as well. In addition they will have done so in a much more transparent, “sporting” method than booking arbitrary matches. The top 8 fighters in the promotion (and 6 of the consensus top 12 and 7 of the top 15) will be meeting in a pre-arranged manner, one that meets the guidelines of a Challenge tournament a format that was used by chess and is the preferred method of boxing. This is infinitely “fairer” and more legitimate than the waiting to see who wins and then matching them up based on interest. The outcome is truly in the hands of the fighters and not the promoter. Whomever wins that has the greatest claim at being called champ.
I hope the UFC takes note and imitates it.,
by John Nash on Jan 10, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions 11 recs
Actual, I am surprised to find myself coming to the realization that after this ‘tournament’ that the Strikeforce HW champion will be the most legitimate of all champions. Not only will that person hold the Strikeforce belt, but they will also hold the lineal Elite XC, UFC, and Pride belts as well and that person will be the actual lineal champion as well. In addition they will have done so in a much more transparent, “sporting” method than booking arbitrary matches. The top 8 fighters in the promotion (and 6 of the consensus top 12 and 7 of the top 15) will be meeting in a pre-arranged manner, one that meets the guidelines of a Challenge tournament a format that was used by chess and is the preferred method of boxing. This is infinitely “fairer” and more legitimate than the waiting to see who wins and then matching them up based on interest. The outcome is truly in the hands of the fighters and not the promoter. Whomever wins that has the greatest claim at being called champ.
I hope the UFC takes note and imitates it.,
by John Nash on Jan 10, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions 10 recs
so nice I had to rec it twice
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
But what comes next? All of their contenders will have lost their last fight
The tourney is fun, but it could possibly be seen as far more short sighted.
Coker has already talked about that. If Fedor fights Werdum in the tournament then he will put Fedor vs Overeem on afterwards and visa versa. He said every one is fighting every one and he seems to mean it.
Guys on the right hand side will probably start matching up with guys from the reserve fights. BTW Coker said today that Oldereeem vs Sefo is the third reserve fight not the second and that Cormier isn’t in the second. So who is in the second reserve fight?
Btw: Isn’t there a (purely theoretical) chance that Ubereem faces his broter in the finals if Oldereem replaces someone other than Alistair?
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
Yes there is. But Alistair has said he would never fight his brother so if the 10,000 :1 cam up I think Oldereem would suddenly have a training injury.
by fitefan on Jan 10, 2011 8:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I know the cool kids like to say how this isn’t a real tournament, but the good thing about the crazy seeding is that the loser of the overeem/fedor/bigfoot/werdum semifinal can fight around the time of the finals and be ready to fight for the belt soon after.
There are no cool kids on BE
We are all MMA Nerds. Anyone who talks about how BElite they are on an internet forum is without a cool factor.
And the lineal IFL Heavyweight belt
and the lineal WAMMA heavyweight belt.
People say the WAMMA belt was worth nothing, but it was won in a fight between #1 Fedor and top 5 Tim Sylvia, and then defended against top 5 Arlovski who just beat the IFL champ Nelson, and then defended against undefeated Rogers(At least I think so, not sure if they decided it would be defended or not in that fight)
CPG
Alistair Overeem - StrikeForce HeavyWeight Champion, K-1 2010 World Grand Prix Champion, DREAM Interim HeavyWeight Champion
by Chris Groves on Jan 10, 2011 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
that's your definition of legitimacy
thanks for that.
'if you don't have humility as a fighter, fighting will bring humility to you...'
To be fair,
It’s the definition of the majority. Doesn’t mean it’s right, though…
The winner of the tourney will make a strong play for #1 HW in the rankings
The winner of the left side might make number one before the finals if the fights actually happen as planned.
by truck on Jan 10, 2011 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
w00t? I’d agree on most divisions, but HW? The only argument I can subscribe to is saying that with the HW talent split up as it is, neither the UFC nor Strikeforce can really produce a legit belt-holder.
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
by KGNLuc on Jan 10, 2011 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That couldn't be more untrue
This would unify the SF title with the LINEAL PRIDE TITLE aka The MMA HW championship. SF would then be able to in good faith completely claim the worlds best HW resides with them, no matter how many pro wrestlers with six fights Cain beat before his shoulder exploded.
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by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Technically, Werdum is the lineal UFC champ too isn’t he?
As it goes (correct me if I’m wrong here, as it’s kind of top of my head with a little help from wiki):
Mark Coleman – Maurice Smith – Randy Couture – Enson Inoue – Mark Kerr – Kazuyuki Fujita – Mark Coleman > Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira – Fedor Emelianenko – Fabricio Werdum
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jan 10, 2011 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
There is that and THREE
COUNT EM THREE lineal UFC titles Couture lost and ended up with Werdum as well. THREE O DEM BITCHES.
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by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 3:34 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
WAIT two other ones
He also lost one to V Overeem and Josh Barnett. You got the other one covered already
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Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 3:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not sure I get what you mean...
The only what that counts should be the one he lost to Enson, as from that moment Enson was the lineal champ, then he lost it to Kerr who lost it to Fujita and so on and so on.
I wasn’t aware that other titles Randy had lost ended up with Werdum too though, via Barnett and Nog. That’s a cool bit of info there. Still, as far as my understanding goes only the loss to Enson passed on the actual lineal championship.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jan 10, 2011 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
Eh...
That should read “the only one what counts”. I really cannot type today lol. Rec’d for the info on the other titles though.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jan 10, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
Eh!!
“the only one THAT counts”
WTF is wrong with me today?
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jan 10, 2011 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
Yo I agree
I just think it’s hilarious that Couture himself lost all the lineal titles. But but but the one Brock won is supposed to signify he is the best MMA HW amirite?
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I must be drunker than I thought
what do you mean by lineal?
Thank U!!!!!
The voice of reason, for shit sake. I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks this way.
by Cestus84 on Jan 10, 2011 3:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
L-I-N-E-A-R!
Damn, dude. I like your fanposts and all but its LINEAR!
You might want to compare the definitions of the words “linear” and “lineal.”
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
Thanks
Between Randy Couture and Mike Fagan, you fresh the funk out of Super-Serum HOMIE.
:D :P
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
wait, i'm lost.
do they mean lineal or linear? wtf is the difference? It’s late
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lineal_championship
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
haha.
I was about to post the same link. To be fair, if you’re not a boxing nerd, the term “lineal championship” might not mean much.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jan 10, 2011 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
Honest to God
I have never heard that word before this post and Bieber’s FanPost (which was great, BTW).
The word itself just doesn’t sound right in my head.
Boxing lingo is truly mystifying
Nobody is just champion.
You’ve got:
Belt Holders (guys who have one or more of the alphabet soup belts)
Lineal Champions (the guy who beat the guy, who beat the guy)
Undisputed Champions (beat the guy and have ALL the real belts)
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jan 10, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
And this is why boxing is a trainwreck of nonsense
and why every televised PPV fight can have a title on the line and yet to the fans no championships contested.
OT to fix boxing all networks need to recognize and only recognize one set of belts. Ignoring the rest.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
This is my embarrassed face :)
I Googled after I already hit post on my idiotic Nazism.
I humbly apologize.
Hey man most of the time when you correct someone they slither away into the night
Props. I usually take my medicine if needed but I am also rarely sick in this context, but it has been known to happen…
/selfhorntoot
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry, sorry for that. I got overzealous.
Must’ve caught something from the Nazis in ’44.
Turns out that Interent feet taste just as bad as my real feet.
its all gravy
we all got a little rex ryan in us of u knamsayin
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Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
are the staff eligible for lukes daily award?
Lol. Why do you say that mike?
I think there division is pretty legit now. As well as their champ. Granted he is no brock lesnar….. but who is?
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by the-gentle-way on Jan 10, 2011 3:59 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Nah, that's crazy
The guy who wins this tourney (outside of a right side guy) is the best HW in the world.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Jan 10, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The winner is the winner.
If a right side guy beats the winner of the other bracket, they deserve the same accolades.
But I agree it will be harder to swallow, like if the Seahawks win the SB. Strange situation. Lets hope a big four winner emerges.
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by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
Nah, you gotta take into account fight history
AA – coming off three losses, beats two top 25 fighters and a top 10 fighter
JB – no wins in top 25, beats two top 25 fighters and a top 10 fighter
BR – two KO losses and struggled against a fat guy, beats two top 25 fighters and a top 10 fighter
SK – no wins, beats two top 25 fighters and a top 10 fighter.
Nah.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Jan 10, 2011 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
But the winner would be lineal and SF champion
Man who beats the man. It’d be like a Seahawks Superbowl win. Uncomfortable for sure. But I’d have to recognize the winner as the best.
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Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
“SF Champion” is as meaningless a term as exists in mixed martial arts.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Jan 10, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
and that is the beauty of this tournament
as it will finally legitimize the title
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by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Lmao.
It is a daily reminder of how fucking stupid I am. I kicked a curb barefoot. Not intentionally, but still no excuse for my stupidity. Heard it crack upon impact.
Do you think the "losers" will just be sitting idly by?
Watching the tournament pass them by with mouths agape?
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by S.C. Michaelson on Jan 10, 2011 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
I'm referring to Rogers.
And after the tournament is over. Whoever wins is #1 heavy in the world. If they give a title shot to someone coming off a loss again, it will be very disappointing.
Ya. but if the winner defends his title against one of the other 7 won’t they all be coming off losses?
I think some UFC guys will sign later in the year the way UFC has been cutting people. So who knows.
But This tournament will deff attract HW fighters to Strikeforce looking to make a name, as well as new fans
Well if Silva and Werdum lose
then they will/should fight
A consolation bracket
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by S.C. Michaelson on Jan 10, 2011 6:57 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed
whoever loses out of those first two should do so…
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by The American Ronin on Jan 11, 2011 9:52 AM EST up reply actions
the winner of this tournament is the winner of this tournament.
Definetly not the best heavyweight in the world. You put Cain in this tournament he wins it easily. Strikeforces heavyweight division is definetly competitive with the ufcs and I’m a strikeforce fan, but the best 2 or 3 heavyweights in the world “right now” are in the ufc.
by psuwrestler99 on Jan 10, 2011 11:29 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I don’t know why but every time I read a response by subo I get a picture of the blind folded lady justice holding her perfectly balanced scales.
Interesting, since every SF champ is ranked. Can’t say the same about, say, every KOTC champ. Your hyperbole is as grand as your delusion.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Jan 10, 2011 6:20 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I would have to agree with you.
The right side of the bracket winning would probably not go to #1 because of their recent history. Barnett may have an intriguing case though.
Werdum beat Fedor, Dos Santos beat Werdum, Joaquim Ferreira beat Dos Santos. Therefore Ferreira is WAAAAY better than Fedor. Keep MMA math alive!
If the Seahawks win the SB they will have gone on an unbelievable
lucky run. They won’t be number one on any power rankings.
Well, they would on ESPNs
What other rankings matter honestly? I’d bet theyd be number one on most if not all other power rankings as well.
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by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
The Colts were still ahead of the Saints on most rankings last off season.
The Seahawks would not sit at the top by the time next season rolled around.
Negative.
You need to keep up with ESPN’s power rankings. They don’t even come close to working the way you think they do.
this is extra silly since its one of the things I make a point to look at on ESPN
not that power rankings apply to MMA.
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by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 9:41 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think you can apply power rankings to mma
"The only freakshow's the one in my pants"
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by chasethegoose on Jan 10, 2011 8:31 PM EST up reply actions
Setting up Overeem vs Werdum or Fedor without a tourney could have done this too.
Honestly I would rather see a title fight separate from the tourney.
They could add Cormier and heck even Lashley to the tourney and see how it plays out. Stacking one side seems kind of like a waste to me that is all.
No its quite smart
it lets the fights we wanted happen sooner rather than later while producing one real contender out of everyone else. This has been explained.
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by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
This is true.
…and I suppose it minimizes the risk of the problems I outlines below, but it also gives M1 more leverage for every round Fedor advances.
I will be disappointed unless the right side produces Barnett vs a revitalized Arlovski.
I wouldn't be, he did great before vs Fedor
AA was the one fighter I wouldn’t have minded beat Fedor. War Pitbull
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by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
did great as one could considering a first round dead zone atrsro travellin adventure*
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
Have you
Have you watched the slow motion breakdown of the arlovski/fedor fight? It was really interesting to see what happened. The fight was not at all as it seemed. it blew me away. Well worth watching here is the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbSUJmF4wxk
I really enjoyed this breakdown of the fight, learned a lot about Fedor’s defense.
Werdum beat Fedor, Dos Santos beat Werdum, Joaquim Ferreira beat Dos Santos. Therefore Ferreira is WAAAAY better than Fedor. Keep MMA math alive!
and like the article stated, tournament or not, these are the matches that SHOULD take place, solving the problem of a bullshit Fedor/Werdum rematch and setting things in their rightful place. here’s hoping it goes as well as it should.
by Victor Rodriguez on Jan 10, 2011 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
The real hype kill is that I wouldn't be even slightly surprised if the "tournament" doesn't happen at all.
and I don’t think anyone else should be either.
Booking Barnett, Fedor and Overeem individually has been a chore, potentially booking one of them in three fights this years sounds impossible.
What reason do we have to belive that:
- Overeem won’t have Japanese fights that interfere with tournament dates.
- M1 won’t stall and renegotiate Fedor’s contract if he beats Big Foot.
- Barnett gets busted for Steroids again again again.
M1 won’t stall and renegotiate Fedor’s contract if he beats Big Foot.
…and again if he makes it to the finals
the contract issues are settled
fingers crossed
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Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
Fedor has two fights in Strikeforce and three rounds of multi month negotiations.
I don’t have a shit ton of faith that it won’t happen again.
I think the language of this deal prevents that from happening again
fingers crizossed
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by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
If M-1 wants there events on Showtime...
…they better play ball this time around. I don’t think that even M-1 is stupid enough to jeopardize their own events.
I think they're happy now
coker’s body language suggests this deal is done done
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Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
“There are a lot of ifs and whens in the contract which are confidential, but essentially it’s a four-fight deal.” – Vadim Finkelstein, manager of Fedor Emelianenko.
I just read that today and cringed.
That sounds like someone is gearing up for renegotiating after Fedor comes off with a win.
Um.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
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by Derek Suboticki on Jan 10, 2011 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
if M-1 renegotiates they renegotiate but assuming they will as if its a foregone conclusion is not something im prepared to do
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by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 9:42 PM EST up reply actions
3 multi month renegotiations and 2 Strikeforce fights
Do we really think they will get off three fights without another round?
Excellent point
and that (promoting their own fights in the US) is really what they after with all of their co-promo and posturing in the first place.
Now that they have what they were after, they should fly right…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
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by The American Ronin on Jan 11, 2011 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
For real!!!!!
….It looks like a tourney to me, I’m calling it a tourney. Title, right off the bat sounds like another SF hate article.
by Cestus84 on Jan 10, 2011 3:30 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
But...
It is.
It takes a big man to cry. But it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man crying.
by Jaspawokki on Jan 10, 2011 2:55 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
The thing that does make this stand out though and makes it more of a tournament is that the winners advance and aren’t totally at the whims of the promoter. If a fighter has a boring or lackluster fight, the winner still advances up the ladder and not laterally or fighting someone lower (George Sotiropolous comes to mind with fighting opponents who are lateral or below his last opponent, but it’s not his fault). In the UFC, a fighter can win three fights in a row and get a TItle shot, whereas another fighter may have to win seven in a row and get a TItle shot. With this Strikeforce “tournament,” like I said before, winners advance and losers don’t.
I won't jump off the bandwagon just because you lost.
God damn sounds like a tournament no?
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly
In this scenario, Jon Fitch eventually meets GSP, no matter how much Dana dislikes him and his style…
This is FAR truer to being a sport than being an “entertainment sport” with too much emphasis on the entertainment aspect.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Jan 11, 2011 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
Strikeforce = Super Six?
Has anyone drawn a comparison between this tournament and the Super Six boxing tournament? Both looked good on paper, but can it pulled off? Or will fighters bail?
by Beau Dure on Jan 10, 2011 2:55 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
tournaments must not be possible in fight sports
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by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
Well…this is, in theory, much easier in practice than a round robin set-up which has every guy fighting multiple times regardless of result.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 11, 2011 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
great article
i’m glad someone on the site wrote this.
i’m as excited about this tournament as anyone if it happens (though i’ll have trouble watching it in canada – something no one talks about) but i think the hardcores have gotten a bit carried away – the tournament is still “iffy” and not likely to upset the balance of power.
still – i hope it works!
A real tournament would feature the strongest seeds against the weakest seeds with the goal of setting up a final round between the #1 and #2 fighters.
This isn’t true at all. A tournament is not dependent on seeding.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jan 10, 2011 2:56 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
Not dependent, but a quality tournament
is set up with seeds that way. Look at how they match make tennis tournaments.
They are just banking on Fedor beating bigfoot so that overeem and werdum get to fight for the right to fight Fedor (again for Werdum!!)
Its like the prize is a Fedor fight and you get it in the second round. Then you take on some other dude for the tilte later when everyone else forgets that there was a tournament in the first place.
by bucco69 on Jan 10, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Look at how they set up the K-1 GP or how they used to set up PRIDE GPs. Are/were they not quality tournaments?
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jan 10, 2011 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
Hell, the NFL uses fairly arbitrary means for seeding their playoffs.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jan 10, 2011 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
Not really.
It’s based entirely on how you did throughout the 17 week regular season. Strikeforce doesn’t have a comparable method to do the same, especially when you ask yourself, “Where is Sergei seeded?” Didn’t he beat Overeem and Werdum? So let’s see:
Sergei>Werdum>Fedor>Overeem>Bigfoot>Brett Rogers>Arlovski>Barnett
This based upon who has actually beaten who. Since barnett hasn’t beaten any of them, he is the lowest seed. Overeem is behind Fedor because he’s lost to Sergei the last time they fought as well as Werdum while Fedor only lost to Werdum. Bigfoot is ahead of Rogers for having only lost to one fighter ranked ahead of him instead of two. So, how would the brackets play out if this was how the tournament was seeded.
Quarterfinals: (1)Sergei vs (8)Barnett in the same bracket as (4)Overeem vs (5) Bigfoot. The other side of the bracket would have (2)Werdum vs (7) Arlovski and (3) Fedor vs. (6) Brett Rogers.
So this might seem like a more common method to structure the tournament if (1) we’re willing to seed Sergei (the true #1 seed) at the top of the tournament, nevermind the unnecessary Fedor/Rogers rematch. But seeing as how it is NOWHERE written that top seeds MUST face bottom seeds in a tournament (I think the bracket structure is the only prerequisite), then I would say that SF definitely designed the brackets a lot better than the seeding would have.
by Sucker-Lite on Jan 10, 2011 5:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It’s based entirely on how you did throughout the 17 week regular season.
It’s not, which is why the 7-9 Seahawks were seeded higher than teams with much better records.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jan 10, 2011 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
That is the exception to the rule.
You realize that has never happened in the entire history of the NFL. Otherwise it is completely based on your season performance and record against your interdivisional rivalries.
But it happens often in baseball and basketball
nfl was the exception
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by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 9:43 PM EST up reply actions
this is the only time that a team with a losing record got in, but there are many, many times that teams with worse records are seeded below teams with winning records. Everyone is whining about the seahawks, but in reality, every road team this weekend had a better record than the home team (except Green Bay, who was tied with Philly, but would have won a tiebreaker since they beat them in the regular season).
Not exactly
In the NFL, the 4 individual division winners in each conference automatically get the first 4 seeds, the 2 wildcard teams get the #5 and #6 seeds, even if they have a better overall record than 3 of the division winners.
The NBA is similar, but slightly different. The 3 division winners in each conference and the 2nd place team with the best record get the top 4 seeds (which is ordered by record), so the 2nd place team with the best record could be the #2 seed. Beyond those, the seeds are all by record, so theoretically the #5 – #8 teams could all have better records than one or both of the other 2 division winners (and #3 and #4 seeds respectively) and still be seeded behind them.
I don’t watch or follow MLB so idk how they seed theirs.
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-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Jan 11, 2011 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
If you were to give baseball teams seeds, the division winners are 1,2, and 3 by record, and the wild card is 4. The first round is 1 vs 4 and 2 vs 3, unless 1 and 4 are in the same division, then it’s 1 vs 3 and 2 vs 4. Better seed gets home field until the world series, which is determined by the all star game.
It has happened plenty in the NFL. Just not with a team with a losing record. but 8-8 division winners and even 9-7 division winners have had a higher “seeding” than wildcard teams with better records.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 11, 2011 6:05 PM EST up reply actions
What I meant by quality was the final goal of
having seed #1 fight #2 at the end of the tournament. Just an example, Overeem beats everyone in his bracket and lets say fights Karitinov for the tournament win. What fight would be more important historically, the Overeem/Werdum fight, the Overeem/Fedor fight or the Kharitonov fight.
So what? By seeding as they do, they ensure high-quality-fights throughout and are eliminating first-round squash-matches. I find that very attractive. Yes, in return the finale could be anti-climactic but that is pure speculation / worrymongering at this point, IMO.
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
I agree with your point
just clarifying the other side of the argument
Or they are thinking
If Silva beats Fedor a fight with either Werdum or Overeem would be interesting. I don’t think they are banking on Fedor.
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I think they definitely are,
if bigfoot beats fedor, all the fight we actually want to see (Overeem,Werdum and even Barnett) we wil never see. They are guaranteeing that Fedor will fight Overeem or Werdum
So if Bigfoot beats Fedor, something only one other person has ever done, you aren’t going to want to see him fight?
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Head Kick Legend
Absolutely I would, I like Bigfoot and find his fighting style very intriguing
I just meant the Fights I want to see Fedor fight. I’d be fine with Bigfoot beating Fedor and taking a run at Overeem/Werdum. I just a huge Fedor fan haha!!
But if Fedor loses against Bigfoot, he can simply fight the loser of Overeem / Werdum – et voila, great matchups all around.
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
True…still a good fight. =)
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
Since Fedor went to strikeforce and Overeem lit the K1 world on fire
I’ve had this vision of Fedor Vs Overeem being on the level that Fedor Vs Cro Cop was when it happened. Just huge on epic levels that would probably see Strikeforce back on CBS.
Going into this I think the general consensus is...
we all want to see Fedor v Reem. I don’t really care about Silva v Reem. I think he would get demolished like Duffee and Rogers.
I pray that Fedor wins.
Better pray that Overeem wins. If Werdum can get him down, all bets are off.
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
Reem has got this.
I think everyone in this tournament is going to be scared shitless by the Reem. Outside of Fedor.
I think Reem wins rather easily
My concern is Fedor beats Bigfoot but breaks his paper-mache hand on that cranium like everyone seems to do.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Jan 11, 2011 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
Going into this I agree
But for that to even happen Bigfoot would have to beat Fedor, which would entirely change our perception of Bigfoot.
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Head Kick Legend
In that case, you could call any look-ahead at match making a tournament. It won’t matter, it will all fall apart anyways. Fedor’s management will use his necessity in this tourney for another hard round of negotiations.
This tourney relies on Fedor fighting 3 times in a year (assuming he wins) and anyone who doesn’t live on the moon knows that’s laughable. Barnett and Kharitonov have never fought in Strikeforce before, Overeem has only fought for them twice EVER. Arlovski is on a 3 fight skid.
Honestly, nobody would give a crap about this “tournament” except for the three fighters that will compete in some permutation BEFORE the finals – Overeem, Werdum, and Fedor.
by EvilScott on Jan 10, 2011 3:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
“In that case, you could call any look-ahead at match making a tournament.”
Not true. The difference is: the tournament-format forces Cocker to adhere to the brackets. Dana White however changes his mind on the title-shots he’s promised before the fights every second time.
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
by KGNLuc on Jan 10, 2011 3:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Like, you know,
he keeps doing. See Fitch, Jon…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Jan 11, 2011 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly
That form of bracketing and seeding that the NCAA BB tourney for example uses (1 vs 16, 2 vs 15, etc) may be what we are all used to, but this format is undeniably that of a tournament.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Jan 11, 2011 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
It’s still a tournament
tour·na·ment (trn-mnt, tûr-)
n.
1. A series of contests in which a number of contestants compete and the one that prevails through the final round or that finishes with the best record is declared the winner.
But it’s a special type of tournament known as a Challenge tournament:
In this format, champions retain their title until they are defeated by an opponent, known as the challenger. This system is used in professional boxing (see lineal championship). Prior to 1993, it was also used in the World Chess Championship. The right to become a contender may be awarded through a tournament, as in chess,
Thus the title match of Overeem vs Werdum in the first round with the winner of that taking on the #1 contenders match of Fedor vs Silva with the winner of that meeting the winner of the rest of the pool.
What makes it a tournament isn’t the fact that it’s good match-making or that it makes sense in a lineal sporting fashion, but that the order of bouts has been announced in advance.
by John Nash on Jan 10, 2011 2:58 PM EST reply actions 17 recs
This
It’s a tournament in every way that matters. It takes a pool of viable contestants, seeds them into brackets and presumably spits out a winner at some point in the not-to-distant future. That winner will have run a nasty gauntlet of very talented fighters and will likely possess a legitimate claim to being the #1 HW in the world.
If it blows up because of injuries, or contracts or athletic commissions, that doesn’t make it any less of a tournament. It just makes it a failed tournament.
I, for one, am hoping for success.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jan 10, 2011 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Isn’t the “challenge tournament” how the UFC is? The champ is the champ until someone beats him? Essentilly “king of the hill”?
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift
by Scott C. Broussard on Jan 10, 2011 7:26 PM EST up reply actions
In the “lineal title” sense, yes, but the one part missing from the UFC which is used in chess (and is supposed to be used in boxing) and which is also a component of the challenge tournament is that the challenger isn’t chosen arbitrarily, a la the promoter deciding who fights next, but wins a tournament to be the challenger. This has got to be dictated ahead of time, otherwise it is merely choosing who the next opponent is.
Great write up
Nice job Nate. Yeah I know it appears to be a tournament but there is no seeding system used. It appears that one side is wild wild west while Barnett would be the favorite to come out of the other. Regardless it will still be exciting and I’m glad that SF is going this route.
Respect the Elbow and follow me on Twitter @duanefinleymma.
It's just marketing
It’s good matchmaking, with a graphic showing a long term goal. But let’s be honest, it’s really really good marketing. You know what else is effective marketing? Titles. When you think about them, they are just belts. I mean how are we supposed to take the UFC lightweight belt seriously? The first champion was decided when two welterweights fought, then the winner defended once and was stripped of his title? That’s a real title?
And as Edgar/Maynard showed it clearly is. Just like this is a real tournament even if the seeding is a little janky.
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Head Kick Legend
by Neil Manich on Jan 10, 2011 2:59 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
It will be an important step in making the Strikeforce title something worth fighting for.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jan 10, 2011 3:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed...
I think the structure of the brackets contributes to that a lot too, with each potential title fight being between two justifiably deserving contenders.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jan 10, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
It already is worth fighting for, but that’s clouded by the spin fighters put out when they want to duck Overeem.
Rest assured, if Bigfoot Silva had that piece of jewelery around his waist, any top 10 fighter would find the 5 minutes to take it from him.
by it never gets better on Jan 11, 2011 1:06 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, but less b/c it is or isn’t a tournament, and more b/c of solid quality matchmaking.
I’m stoked about the “tournament” (assuming it happens) b/c of the good matchmaking.
Don’t really see why people get worked up about whether it fits the definition of tournament or not. Who cares? We will see Overeem face Wedum! And then winner faces Fedor/Silva.
This is awesome, b/c it will tell us how good the most intriguing HW around (Overeem) really is, and plus spell out the redemption or further fall from grace of Fedor.
Is it just me or does Scott Coker say "you know" every 10 words haha!!
by bucco69 on Jan 10, 2011 3:00 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
That’s just Zach Arnold’s mind numbing transcription at work. Love Zach, hate his transcribed interviews.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jan 10, 2011 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
Put Scott Coker and Dave Meltzer in a room together.
Ummm… the discussion would be, you know, thrilling.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Jan 10, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Regardless of seeds, this is still a tournament. It may not be the style of tournament that MMA fans or sports fans are used to, but it’s still a tournament.
by GetYourHeadStomps on Jan 10, 2011 3:01 PM EST reply actions
Sigh...
1) By definition, its a tournament, seeding has nothing to do with it. You can have random draw tournaments as well.
2) K-1 GP’s definitely are by definition tournaments, were seedings are random. Combat sports don’t use numbered seedings, PRIDE never did either.
3) Two of the biggest criticisms against SF is that fans have no idea what is next for the fighters, their plans and direction for the year, and the other is that SF couldn’t get their HW’s to fight each other, this tournament answers all of those questions.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 10, 2011 3:03 PM EST reply actions 9 recs
Which apparently necessitates the creation of new, more asinine questions such as: “How can we change the definition of words like ‘tournament’ so that we may continue our theme of relentlessly nitpicking Strikeforce under the guise of guarded optimism?”
by smoogy2 on Jan 10, 2011 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
I think there is still a lot to be desired on the preparation side of things from SF and Showtime. For example, I would have really liked to have seen some kind of Fight Camp 360 style show running before the opening event of the tournament. So if you’ve got to criticize SF on something, that would be my angle. But this “not a tournament” stuff is nothing more than a fanboy curiosity.
agreed
Man subo is gonna run with this big time
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Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
I hear they will ramp up promotion big time for this event, Showtime is really behind this, so we will see. =)
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 10, 2011 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
I'm wondering if this movement started with a viral push by Zuffa to undercut the tournament early.
If so, it’s been shockingly effective. The storyline is out there, media hounds on it, and half of the world won’t care who wins because “it’s not a real tournament, guys!” is the focus rather than “Fighter sweeps through dangerous field of opponents.”
It’s a silly game to argue semantics over awesome and relevant fights.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Are you saying this was a random draw?
Hey UFC4 go fuck yourself, how about that? Fucking punk, I was just asking for the source that says lesnar gets 5 mill a fight, it’s obvious one does not exist. Bunch of gabronis on a site pulling figures out of your ass.
by Garrett Bennicas
by ufc4 on Jan 10, 2011 4:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
A real tournament would feature the strongest seeds against the weakest seeds with the goal of setting up a final round between the #1 and #2 fighters.
So the PRIDE LWGP and the DREAM LWGP weren’t real tournaments?
Come on Nate. Don’t be suckered into this “not really a tournament” nonsense.
by smoogy2 on Jan 10, 2011 3:05 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
Yeah, I was thinking—by this standard, has there ever been a “real tournament” in MMA history? Would any of the tournament-era UFCs qualify? Any of the PRIDE GPs? I admit I haven’t done any thorough research here, but I doubt it.
Heh, I don’t know about that one, even—presumably you’d have Royce as #1 seed, which would make Kimo #8, below guys like Keith Hackney and Roland Payne. I mean, all those guys were debuting, but Kimo was at least bigger than them.
And you’d have to have Shamrock as #2, which would make Christophe Leininger #7 (again below Hackney and Payne), even though he was actually an Olympic-caliber Judo competitor.
You’re probably just funnin’ anyway, though. Unless they actually publicized seeds for that tournament, in which case, never mind!
Tournament or not
It finally means that we get to see their HW division actually fight each other and sets up a path for the direction the division is going to go. That’s all I care about.
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
a path for the direction the division is going to go.
Holy fuck I can’t type.
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
by Tonley on Jan 10, 2011 3:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I said this too
The biggest reason I never thought this was a real tournament is that it is highly unlikely that it will make it past the quarterfinals. When I think ‘tournament’ I think of a definitive event, no matter how long. I agree it’s good matchmaking but ’tournament was a hype grab that worked.
Also anyone hear Arlovski tell junkie radio host he was the first to tell him about the hope for 5 rounds for everybody. He didn’t sound happy about it.
Scott Coker like George Bush???
Well at least as far as his interviewing skills. If he said “you know” one more time I would have that it was George Bush. The only way Coker could have sounded less intelligent would be if he was saying “uh, um” instead.
by psuwrestler99 on Jan 10, 2011 3:10 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Saying the SF HWGP isn’t a tournament is like saying MMA isn’t a sport because there are no sticks or balls involved. It’s just patently false.
There’s also nothing wrong with calling it a “grand prix” either, despite the fact that it differs from the old Pride versions.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
by Mike Fagan on Jan 10, 2011 3:12 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
What I like about BE is you guys are not afraid to disagree with eachother
Legitimizes your site because ESPN analysts and what not disagree as well. That is one of the many reasons I love BE the most of all MMA websites.
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Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
There’s also nothing wrong with calling it a "grand prix" either, despite the fact that it differs from the old Pride versions.
Ehhhh. “Wrong” is a weird word. “Wrong”… maybe not. Incorrect? It’s totally incorrect.
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"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
by Chris Barton on Jan 10, 2011 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
Why
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
You don’t get to pimpjack that lexicon, which is well established and has tons of history behind it in MMA, and use to to lend some extra credibility to your tournament.
Grand Prix is an established terminology in MMA. It means something. What is means, this isn’t it.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
by Chris Barton on Jan 10, 2011 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
find me a definition then that disproves this
is a GP. Besides your made up definition.
Thefreedictionary.com
1. (Individual Sports & Recreations / Motor Racing)
a. any of a series of formula motor races held to determine the annual Drivers’ World Championship
b. (as modifier) a Grand Prix car
2. (Individual Sports & Recreations / Horse Racing) Horse racing a race for three-year-old horses run at Maisons Lafitte near Paris
3. (Individual Sports, other than specified) a very important competitive event in various other sports, such as athletics, snooker, or powerboating
[French: great prize]
There is no definition you can point out besides one you define yourself that automatically disqualifies this from GP status. Because it is different in format from illegal-under-US-Rules GPs that used to happen in defunct promotions does not disqualify this from being a GP.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
THIS
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by S.C. Michaelson on Jan 10, 2011 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
highfive-to-assslap
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
Words are colloquial
And in MMA a Grand Prix style tournament has a very specific meaning as coined by PRIDE.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
by Chris Barton on Jan 10, 2011 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
so you are saying that to be a grand prix, it either has to have an opening round 1 night, then the last 3 rounds in one night; OR an opening round 1 night and the last 2 rounds another night; OR an opening round 1 night, the second round another night, then the last 2 rounds on a third night; OR the first 2 rounds on one night, then the finals on a second night?
Funny
I’d be willing to coincide it being a Grand Prix in the MMA sense of the word if they just had each round on a single night, since being in America makes multiple round sin one night difficult.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
by Chris Barton on Jan 10, 2011 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
that’s fine for whatever you think, but as for definitions or specific meanings coined by pride, none of that is necessary. A tournament is a grand prix.
That's just not true
in an MMA context.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
by Chris Barton on Jan 11, 2011 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
According to what?
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 9:45 PM EST up reply actions
The way PRIDE
established an MMA Grand Prix to be.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
by Chris Barton on Jan 11, 2011 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
I really don't care about the definition.
Grand Prix almost feels copyrighted by Pride for MMA. It just sounds weird saying it with any other MMA promotion. Pride turned it into what it is for MMA. And I feel it comes with a nostalgic, warm feeling when mentioned with Pride.
It’s like the Mcdonalds Big Mac. Strikeforce can come up with their own Big Mac. This is strictly my opinion. I miss Pride.
Dont ya think Pride took the Idea from early UFC though??
I think Coker knows fans like Tourney, saw them in Pride and old UFC and with the success of the Super six on Showtime it was an easy sell to them?
I think Coker has to be patted on the back for this. It would have been easier for him to stretch these fights out over time but He wants to make a big Splash and I support his Balls for this, errr..support him.
I agree,
Did MMA tournaments originate with the UFC? It won’t matter in what context Grand Prix is mentioned I will always think of Pride.
Ya man.
Most Pride Tourneys had the feeling like the best were being brought in from all over the world. Like K-1 16GP, or “Ultimate Ultimates” back in the old UFC days, Or like when AstroBoy was forced to face the 8 toughest Robot in the world.
That’s why no one cares about the Bellator Tourneys.
Have to make it feel like the best are fighting.
by JoePalooka on Jan 10, 2011 6:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What?
“A real tournament would feature the strongest seeds against the weakest seeds with the goal of setting up a final round between the #1 and #2 fighters”
Is this a code of the universe, that a tournament must put the ‘favorites’ on opposite sides?
Also, who wants to see Overeem, Fedor, and Werdum matched up with guys like Rogers, Arlovski or Kharitonov.
I prefer a tournament set up like this, the best are fighting the best, and the less then best are fighting the less then best to see which one of them deserves a shot at the best.
Arlovski, Rogers, Kharitonov and even Barnett are not deserving of fights against Fedor, Werdum or Overeem. Arlovski is on a 3 fight losing streak, Rogers lost to two of them already and rebounded with a DECISION win over Ruben Villareal, Kharitonov lost in April 09, and didn’t fight again in MMA until he took a gift fight against Mizuno, and Barnett has his steroid history and hasn’t fought since summer of 2010 and has been fighting lesser competition. So yeah, none of them should be fighting the best of StrikeForce yet.
But I guess if this were a REAL tournament you’d have all of the favorites fighting easier opponents just so they can have a big fight at the end.
Overeem beating Werdum and Fedor beating Silva will make me more excited for their fight than if Overeem beat Arlovski and Kharitonov and Fedor beat Barnett and Rogers again
CPG
Alistair Overeem - StrikeForce HeavyWeight Champion, K-1 2010 World Grand Prix Champion, DREAM Interim HeavyWeight Champion
Guys, I just had the weirdest idea!! What if – bear with me now – what IF, that Strikeforce HW Tournament really isn’t a tournament…just regular matchmaking disguised as a tournament? I know, I know – sounds insane, right? And if there was anything to it, certainly it would’ve been discussed on this site in great detail, over and over and over again in the past days. But I’ll just put it out there. Food for thought, y’know?!
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
DANA WHITE INVENTED MMA
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by S.C. Michaelson on Jan 10, 2011 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
Sure...
He is the founder of Jiu-Jitsu!
Do you need some paper to clean all the bullshit?
It disappoints me when some vocal people in cyberspace hide behind a pseudonym and make malicious and baseless attacks against athletes that have never failed a screen for banned substances. These keyboard toxicologists think that they can merely look at an athlete and "know" that so-and-so is a "juicer." There is a term for that. It's called "delusions of grandeur," and medication may help. (Dr. Johnny Benjamin)
Nate why did you do this?
This is a tournament strictly speaking as numerous people have pointed out, but all you’re doing is adding fuel to the haters fire.
I don’t get this article at all.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
agreed
it seems a bit churlish…
'if you don't have humility as a fighter, fighting will bring humility to you...'
I can't get a bead on Nate
Is he the first Strikeforce hating UFC hater?
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
You should have known the grease fire this would cause
matter fact you were banking on it. Nate trollin us? Dastardly! Nate is an evil genius!
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
actually the headline was pretty last minute
the meat of it was about the difficulties they were having with barnett and overeem vis a vis 5 round or 3 round fights.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I recently learned the hard way that the headline is important to how the entire article is recieved
That piece I did on Overeem vs Werdum for instance, I posted on Junkie and ESPN forums, but my full title wouldn’t fit so I titled it “Overeem vs Werdum is the biggest fight this year” and similarly and that is all people could focus on in the comments, so the responses I got in those places were of much less value than the great replies I found here. Maybe you could change the title so the meat and potatoes of your article is what we focus on.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
well the headline basically is the article
I’m happy with this outcome.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I bet you are. Evil Genius
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
And another article mentioning the search terms Strikeforce, Tournament, Heavyweight.
Just like Snowden hit on Dana White, UFC President, and Strikeforce.
Did you know that if you search “Strikeforce heavyweight tournament” on Google that a piece on Bloody Elbow is the number three result, well above MMA Weekly or Yahoo Sports? Funny how that happens… (=
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
i wuz almost gonna ask if it was a slow news day
but i didn’t wanna make the poo poo real…
tell me it isn’t true Nate??!
'if you don't have humility as a fighter, fighting will bring humility to you...'
I will never get tired of pointing out the ulterior motives behind headlines, links, and keywords
when people get worked up about the specific phrasing more than the article. A headline is marketing and SEO, that’s it.
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-Randall Munroe
Is he the first Strikeforce hating UFC hater?
They call him Kid Hate for a reason (because Shane Carwin said so). His hate knows no boundaries.
all hate knows is boundaries
for the record
'if you don't have humility as a fighter, fighting will bring humility to you...'
Unless it's the evil genius of Kid Hate
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
well it was intended to codify
the arguments in favor of what Strikeforce is doing that emerged on the site last week by showing that it’s not really a tournament per se but is still cool.
IE it would be stupid to post pone Fedor vs Overeem/Werdum until the finals, etc.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
But it IS a tournament per se
Did you listen to MMAnation last night, just curious? Luke explains why this kind of tournament is necessary for this kind of sport.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
It answers this question logically on why traditional tournament seeding just doesn't work in MMA
Maybe give it a listen and include it in the article as it’s relevant? It’s yo baby. Not tellin you how to write just offering suggestions.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
It’s pointless wasting time on what is or isn’t a tournament. I loosened my definition of what a tournament really was during the Pride GP’s. I even remember Dana calling a tournament between Mir, Nog, Lesnar, and Couture a 4 man tournament.
I was initially surprised at the seeds, but that doesn’t make it not a tournament. But it depends on how strict your terms are.
What is funny is Luke Thomas actually had an answer for this last night on MMAnation
when he talked about how fight sports like this can’t be seeded in traditional seeding where the highest fight the lowest etc because of the differences in the sport. He mentioned how the tournament structure had to be tinkered with a little bit.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
So does anyone know what the policy is on a consolation bracket or something?
Because even with the guys that lose, there are still a lot of badass matchups to be made. I guess consolation bracket is the wrong way to phrase it, they’re not fighting for a ranking or playoff seed or anything. But I guess I’m asking what happens to the guys who are eliminated?
"What do you know about my vision? My vision will turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself: Are you really ready to see that vision?"
-Huey Freeman
I wonder if the alternate winners get matched up
for an alternate tourney title or something else. Why not give one of those prospects a title if they win a mini tournament? extra promotional fuel and accolades are always nice.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
So is no real, dis Tourney? Nao I haz a sad ='(
C’mon Kid Nate! >=/
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
either the Del Rosario Lavar Johnson winner or they'll tap Cormier outright
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
If every fight goes through one after another and the tournament ends this year, this is whats up. If Overeem or Werdum win out, they are definetely top 5 heavyweights. If Fedor wins outs then he is again #1. Who ever is UFC champion, Fedor will be #1, the way I see it is Fedor would not have to fight any UFC fighter to prove his #1 if he wins out, the UFC champion would have to beat Fedor to prove they have the #1 one.
I could care less about the lack of seeds
As far as I’m concerned, this is a tournament. It has rounds, multiple fights, and a bracket. That’s all I care about. The fights they have going down in the first round are fantastic, and I have no doubt they’ll continue to be into the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Nitpicking about the technicalities of a tournament is a distraction from the awesomeness that is, WE HAVE A HW TOURNAMENT COMING TO MMA.
If anything bad happens to this tournament now
It is officially Kid Nate’s fault.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
Just curious...
If you restructured the tourney according to your method, what exactly would the matchups look like then? Would Fedor be matched up against B. Rodgers again (considering that Fedor is the strongest and Brett is weakest)? And what side do you put Werdum on?
Fedor would be the 3 seed, Overeem is the champ and Werdum just beat Fedor.
Hey UFC4 go fuck yourself, how about that? Fucking punk, I was just asking for the source that says lesnar gets 5 mill a fight, it’s obvious one does not exist. Bunch of gabronis on a site pulling figures out of your ass.
by Garrett Bennicas
by ufc4 on Jan 11, 2011 10:03 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Nate say this had been a random draw and it came out like this
would you still criticize like this?
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
Is it a tournament, is it not a tournament, who cares? Seriously It’s just a big blue chart with names on it, who cares how you define it? All I know is that I better get to see Overeem vs Werdum 2 finally damn it. They can call it a go go dance or a titty twister as long as they finally give me the fights I want to see.
by who me on Jan 10, 2011 4:11 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
The issue for me
isn’t that it’s not a tournament. It absolutely IS a tournament.
That said, it is not a Grand Prix. You don’t get to pimpjack that lexicon, which is well established and has tons of history behind it in MMA, and use to to lend some extra credibility to your tournament.
Scott just gave us his fantasy best case scenario of match making for the year, put it in some brackets and let us go nuts.
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"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
You might want to look at the Grand Prixs
before you say it’s not a Grand Prix.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Jan 10, 2011 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
I don't need a new car
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"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
by Chris Barton on Jan 10, 2011 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
It's a tournament. If it isn't then neither were any of the PRIDE GPs which were loaded for Wand to face Japanese guys
and then reseeded so their favored guy would get an easy fight.
C’mon now.
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Follow me on Twitter
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12/30/10 The day I made the MMaManiacs cry.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Jan 10, 2011 4:34 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
SC is on point here
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
Sounds like a tournament to me
tournament
1. (General Sporting Terms) a sporting competition in which contestants play a series of games to determine an overall winner
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?word=tournament
by Godwulf on Jan 10, 2011 4:43 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I don’t know about the rest of the rankers, but I’m not preparing to take Cain’s #1 spot away because of injury.
Honestly, if this thing goes as plan, it will be a coup for Strikeforce, as it will show a level of fighter control in match making they haven’t demonstrated before (Overeem sounds like he’s doing the Werdum fight and then figuring it out after that). I just don’t think this will go down as planned.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 10, 2011 4:44 PM EST reply actions
Easy come, easy go
It’s not like Cain’s No. 1 ranking is set in stone. And he wouldn’t lose it because of injury, he’d lose it because another fighter has done more to earn it than he did. If the tourney doesn’t go down as planned, which is of course a decent possibility, then the situation would be different.
by yarky1 on Jan 10, 2011 4:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
and as good as cain in, Lesnar would barely be favored by free thinkers to win the weak bracket and would be at the bottom of the other bracket
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Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah
Brock sure would be an underdog against Brett Rogers or the 0-3 in his last three Arlovski.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 10, 2011 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
All day
Barnett hasn’t had a top ten opponent since before Brock started fighting.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 10, 2011 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
Barnett had problems with Mighty Mo. I don’t know why people assume he’s going to compete like it’s 2006.
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Head Kick Legend
OK
What odds would you give Brock against AA and Barnett (individually)?
-350 and -250.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 10, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
I’d probably have something similar to this. Maybe a little steeper on the Barnett line, if anything.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
So you’re giving Brock a 56% chance to win the weak bracket. While the other guy (who you mocked) said that “Brock would barely be favored to win the weak bracket.”
I’m a cautious gambler.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 10, 2011 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
But if Zuffa made a tournament like this and put Brock in that kind of bracket, people would cry “fix”.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 10, 2011 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
I wouldn't
I’d love to see him against Barnett, and it’s a winnable fight for both guys.
It's a winnable fight
for a circa… what, 2003 Barnett. Who knows now.
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"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
by Chris Barton on Jan 10, 2011 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
Lesnar would just take him down.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
by Chris Barton on Jan 11, 2011 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
If one of the 4 people in a bracket has a 56% chance of winning I’m not sure how they could be barely favored to win.
I guess it depends on how you define “barely favored.” I would define it relative to even odds, myself.
Things change when you start talking about multiple independent events. A 56% favorite in a single fight is a much different thing than a 56% favorite over two, three, or four fights.
And FWIW, I wouldn’t call a 55% favorite “barely favored.”
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
OK
That’s reasonable. Not how I’d initially look at it, but it makes sense. I don’t really agree with the odds, but I guess you can justify criticizing the other guy’s post.
What about the part about Brock being on the bottom of the strong bracket? I’d have him comfortably behind Fedor and Overeem, and roughly equal with Werdum and Bigfoot (ahead, but not by much).
Especially considering the other side is like 30-25-20-15
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 10, 2011 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
Brock
When CroCop lost to Fedor, he lost the fear he put it opponents, by giving them faith that pressure would eventually break him.
Brocks boxing display during the Cain and Shane fight had the same effect. Every game plan for someone fighting Brock is going to be “let your hands go early cause Brock doesnt take shots well” In this regard all 8 fighters in this TOURNAMENT would have a shot at beating him.
Brock is just eye candy.
by JoePalooka on Jan 10, 2011 5:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah
This is also a fair point. I guess we need to see Brock again, though that’s what I thought after Carwin (IMO, that was a truly awful fight, in which neither guy looked like he belonged in a main event).
ya, I kinda like Brock, but he needs work on his boxing and doesnt seem to be filling that important hole. He has the athletic ability to learn but he hasnt put it up as much of a priority as he has his wrestling and Strength/Conditioning training. Obviously he’s a huge cash cow though. the biggest in MMA, people want to buy into Brock, including me, I hope he tightens up his game and keeps improving.
This might be right
Brock went from someone people were complaining it wasn’t fair to have to fight him because he was a huge monster to, “wait… we know how to beat him”.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
by Chris Barton on Jan 10, 2011 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
Free thinkers
is apparently = to irrational haters.
Whoda thunk.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
by Chris Barton on Jan 10, 2011 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
Brock would be killed by the majority of this tournament
nevermind I know I know BROCK SMASH
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Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
by Urijah Bieber on Jan 10, 2011 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
Not that this is terribly surprising given your ouvre
but is there any hypothetical length of time that Cain could be out, coupled by a hypothetical series of wins by the SF champ that would cause you to remove his #1 overall ranking in the HW division?
Or is the UFC Champ, in your mind, always and forever the #1 HW?
For instance, let’s say Fedor wins out, facing the highest ranked guys at each stage (Silva, Overeem, Barnett) and then to cap off the year at a NYE show he avenges his loss to Werdum who took Overeem into deep waters in the first round.
Meanwhile Cain’s surgery takes longer than expected, and he’s out the entire time, during which JDS loses an interim belt to Mir. Who is #1 in the world under that scenario?
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jan 10, 2011 5:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
LOL@Fedor fighting 4 times this year
Hey UFC4 go fuck yourself, how about that? Fucking punk, I was just asking for the source that says lesnar gets 5 mill a fight, it’s obvious one does not exist. Bunch of gabronis on a site pulling figures out of your ass.
by Garrett Bennicas
by ufc4 on Jan 11, 2011 10:06 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
LOL at missing the point
I’m not suggesting that Fedor is going to fight four times in 2010. I’m not even suggesting that that this tournament is going to make it past the first round (though I sincerely hope it does).
I’m asking whether there is any hypothetical set of events under which Subo (or you for that matter) would say that someone outside of the UFC is the #1 HW, or whether you believe that the UFC HW Champ always holds that distinction.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jan 11, 2011 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
when did you start ranking brock over Fedor?
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by the-gentle-way on Jan 10, 2011 5:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
When Fedor lost to Werdum and Brock beat Carwin the next week. Since then, Brock has lost to the current #1 and Fedor has been inactive.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 10, 2011 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
Fedor lost
so his inactivity isn’t helping or hurting him, he is still around 3. The same thing would be happening with Cain in that scenario. The same treatment entirely. Not that I agree with it.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
by Chris Barton on Jan 10, 2011 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
Because Cain lost his last fight then tried to renegotiate his contract
Oh wait…
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 10, 2011 6:17 PM EST up reply actions
But let’s get real, this isn’t actually a tournament. Coker has just let the fans in on his hoped for matchmaking for his heavyweight division for the rest of the year
I still dont see how this inst a “real tournament”… Sure its not seeded like a traditional tournament. But its bracketed so that the winners of each round HAVE TO fight the winner of a pre-determined matchup opposite them.
I mean, I suppose if Coker just listed 8 HW’s and said they would fight each other in a tournament, then after the opening round, CHOSE who the winners would fight then it wouldn’t resemble a tournament. But no matter how much or little sense the seedings make, the brackets are set and now anything can happen… Thats what makes tournaments exciting.
If Sergei and Rogers win, Coker cant just re-format the tournament to match up Fedor/Sergei and Overeem/Arvloski. No matter how strange the simi-finals matchups may be, thats how the tourny may unfold.
Sure, a 1-8 seeded tournament would make more sense… but this IS a tournament.
If Dana made a HW Grand Prix with Cain/JDS/Carwin/Brock on one side and 4 HW TUFers on the other side… sure it would be strange, but as long as the tournament stayed true to the original brackets, it WOULD STILL be a tournament.
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
Proud BElitest.
Furthermore...
I dont know why people are so unhappy that the “Tournament” brackets follow Coker’s best case scenario matchmaking….
Who’s going to complain if Overeem gets to fight Werdum, Fedor, Barnett in succession?
Would people really rather see him fight Sergei, then Bigfoot, THEN Fedor/Werdum?
IMO if Barnett makes it out of the ‘losers’ bracket to the finals, Fedor/Werdum/Overeem have a real chance to turn out one of the most impressive 1 yr runs in HW history.
Its not a traditional PRIDE GP or anything… but face it, PRIDE is dead… this is as close as we’ll get.
ENJOY THE FIGHTS!
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
Proud BElitest.
According to the Dictionary this is a Tournament.
But dont let that get in the way of an internet journalists story.
Just because it’s not set up like March Madness doesnt mean it’s not a tournament. This IS a Tournament, 8 top fighters, winners advance.
Sometimes high/low seeds face off,
Sometimes there is a random lottery draw.
Sometimes matchups are chosen,
Were the old UFC’s not Tournaments because the slots were chosen? Pride might say they were random but they chose the matchups as well. this is Silly…
This is going to be a Great TOURNAMENT, I’m excited!
by JoePalooka on Jan 10, 2011 5:16 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
truth.
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
Proud BElitest.
by MMArazorback on Jan 10, 2011 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
Holy shit!
How has this not been mentioned on this site yet!!??::
by John Danaher's Hair on Jan 10, 2011 5:18 PM EST reply actions
And people are still arguing whether it's a tournament or not?
I think we have well established that everyone has an opinion and none of those opinions actually change anything at all about what is or isn’t going to happen here. Seriously what difference does it make? Anyone have one thing that would change about this if it’s a tournament or just a psudo-tournament? Is there some reason that people need to defend Strikeforce by proving this is a tournament instead of just matches we all want to see? is there any real meat to this discussion or is it just meaningless semantics?
by who me on Jan 10, 2011 5:38 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
When a journalist goes on record saying this is not a tournament, when by definition it is. People will state facts to bring more reality to the conversation. And of course UFC yea/nay people will jump on board like they do at every other opportunity.
Hate. Hate. Hate…
There will ALWAYS be haters
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by Blue22AMD on Jan 10, 2011 5:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You mean when an internet blogger disagrees with your opinion on semantics you will get all insulted and talk for hours about different semantics that have no bearing on any part of the actual story? Oh and apparently now it’s a UFC vs anti-UFC issue whether they call it a tournament or not? That’s not hate vs anti-hate that is a form of mental retardation. Good grief don’t you have more important things to argue back and forth with people who prefer the UFC than this, you know like the actual content of the article?
If Jesus Christ came down on a magic pogo stick and told you that this wasn’t really what he thinks of as a tournament would it change your opinion of the product Strikeforce is presenting? Strikeforce is going to call it a tournament regardless of what anyone’s personal opinion or internet dictionary says, no one cares what we think and nothing about this changes either way regardless of what term is used to describe it. It’s not only semantics it’s utterly meaningless semantics. There was more meaning behind the less filling vs taste great debate than this.
It’s not arguing semantics with an internet blogger bud, it’s stating facts about the Definition of the word TOURNAMENT. Semantics are argued over when people don’t have the facts to backup their argument. Like you, who me, yes you.
facts? someone brought up a definition and then a bunch of people argued about whether this fit the difinition over and over and over again.
So given a choice of reading and interpreting the big block of text below or actually discussing the fighters and the event, I guess you guys chose the big block of text…..
A tournament is a competition involving a relatively large number of competitors, all participating in a sport or game. More specifically, the term may be used in either of two overlapping senses:
1.One or more competitions held at a single venue and concentrated into a relatively short time interval.
2.A competition involving multiple matches, each involving a subset of the competitors, with the overall tournament winner determined based on the combined results of these individual matches. These are common in those sports and games where each match must involve a small number of competitors: often precisely two, as in most team sports, racket sports and combat sports, many card games and board games, and many forms of competitive debating. Such tournaments allow large numbers to compete against each other in spite of the restriction on numbers in a single match.
These two senses are distinct. All golf tournaments meet the first definition, but while match play tournaments meet the second, stroke play tournaments do not, since there are no distinct matches within the tournament. In contrast, football (soccer) leagues like the Premier League are tournaments in the second sense, but not the first, having matches spread across many stadia over a period of up to a year. Many tournaments meet both definitions; for example, the Wimbledon tennis championship.A tournament-match (or tie or fixture or heat) may involve multiple game-matches (or rubbers or legs) between the competitors. For example, in the Davis Cup tennis tournament, a tie between two nations involves five rubbers between the nations’ players. The team that wins the most rubbers wins the tie. In the later rounds of UEFA Champions League of football (soccer), each fixture is played over two legs. The scores of each leg are added, and the team with the higher aggregate score wins the fixture, with away goals used as a tiebreaker and a penalty shootout if away goals cannot determine a winner.
Contents [hide]
1 Knockout tournaments
2 Group tournaments
3 Multi-stage tournaments
4 Promotion and relegation
5 Bridge tournaments
6 Poker tournaments
7 Alternatives to tournament systems
8 See also
9 References
[edit] Knockout tournamentsA knockout tournament is divided into successive rounds; each competitor plays in at most one fixture per round. The top-ranked competitors in each fixture progress to the next round. As rounds progress, the number of competitors and fixtures decreases, and the final round consists of just one fixture, the winner of which is the overall champion.In a single-elimination tournament, only the top-ranked competitors in a fixture progress; in 2-competitor games, only the winner progresses. All other competitors are eliminated. This ensures a winner is decided with the minimum number of fixtures. However, most competitors will be eliminated after relatively few matches; a single bad or unlucky performance can nullify many preceding excellent ones. Some single-elimination tournaments such as NBA use a multiple-game format, in which teams would play each other more than one game (e.g. best-of-seven series in NBA) in order to determine who is the winner of this round. Other knockout formats provide a “second chance” for some or all losers.
A double-elimination tournament may be used in 2-competitor games to allow each competitor a single loss without being eliminated from the tournament. All losers from the main bracket enter a losers’ bracket, the winner of which plays off against the main bracket’s winner.
Some formats allow losers to play extra rounds before re-entering the main competition in a later round. Rowing regattas often have repechage rounds for the “fastest losers” from the heats. The winners of these progress, but are at a disadvantage in later rounds owing to the extra effort expended during the repechage.
In the playoffs of the Australian Football League, the teams with the best record before the playoffs are allowed to lose a game without being eliminated, whereas the lesser qualifiers are not. In athletics meetings, fastest losers may progress in a running event held over several rounds; e.g. the qualifiers for a later round might be the first 4 from each of 6 heats, plus the 8 fastest losers from among the remaining runners.
An extreme form of the knockout tournament is the stepladder format where the strongest team (or individual, depending on the sport) is assured of a berth at the final round while the next strongest teams are given byes according to their strength/seeds; for example, in a four team tournament, the fourth and third seed figure in the first round, then the winner goes to the semifinals against the second seed, while the survivor faces the first seed at the final. Three American sports organizations either currently use this format or have in the past:
For over 30 years (generally from the mid-1960s to 1997), most events on the PBA Tour of ten-pin bowling used a stepladder final, usually involving five bowlers.
Both halves of the bracket in the men’s and women’s postseason basketball tournaments in the West Coast Conference are organized as stepladder tournaments. The bottom four teams play in the first round; the survivors will face the #3 and #4 seeds, and the winners of those matches take on the top two seeds in the semifinals.
Women’s Professional Soccer has used this format since its inaugural 2009 season. For an example of its playoff system, see 2009 Women’s Professional Soccer Playoffs.
[edit] Group tournamentsA group tournament, league, division or conference involves all competitors playing a number of fixtures. Points are awarded for each fixture, with competitors ranked based either on total number of points or average points per fixture. Usually each competitor plays an equal number of fixtures, in which case rankings by total points and by average points are equivalent. The English County Championship in cricket did not require an equal number of matches prior to 1963.1In a round-robin tournament, each competitor plays all the others an equal number of times, once in a single round-robin tournament and twice in a double round-robin tournament. This is often seen as producing the most reliable rankings. However, for large numbers of competitors it may require an unfeasibly large number of rounds. A Swiss system tournament attempts to determine a winner reliably, based on a smaller number of fixtures. Fixtures are scheduled one round at a time; a competitor will play another who has a similar record in previous rounds of the tournament. This allows the top (and bottom) competitors to be determined with fewer rounds than a round-robin, though the middle rankings are unreliable.
There may be other considerations besides reliability of rankings. In some professional team sports, weaker teams are given an easier slate of fixtures as a form of handicapping. Sometimes schedules are weighted in favour of local derbies or other traditional rivalries. For example, NFL teams play two games against each of the other three teams in their division, one game against half of the other twelve teams in their conference, and one game against a quarter of the sixteen teams in the other conference.
American sports are also unusual in providing fixtures between competitors who are, for ranking purposes, in different groups. Another, systematic, example of this was the 2006 Women’s Rugby World Cup: each of the teams in Group A played each of the teams in Group B, with the groups ranked separately based on the results. (Groups C and D intertwined similarly.) An elaboration of this system is the Mitchell movement in duplicate bridge, discussed below, where North-South pairs play East-West pairs.
Main article: Group tournament ranking system
In 2-competitor games where ties are rare or impossible, competitors are typically ranked by number of wins, with ties counting half; each competitors’ listings are usually ordered Wins–Losses(–Ties). Where draws are more common, this may be 2 points for a win and 1 for a draw, which is mathematically equivalent but avoids having too many half-points in the listings. These are usually ordered Wins–Draws–Losses. If there are more than two competitors per fixture, points may be ordinal (for example, 3 for first, 2 for second, 1 for third).[edit] Multi-stage tournamentsMany tournaments are held in multiple stages, with the top teams in one stage progressing to the next. American professional team sports have a “regular season” (group tournament) acting as qualification for the “post season” or “playoffs” (single-elimination tournament). In the FIFA World Cup, each continent has one or more qualifying tournaments, some of which are themselves multi-stage. The top teams in each qualify for the finals tournament. There, the 32 teams are divided into eight round-robin groups of four, with the top two in each progressing to the knockout phase, which involves four single-elimination rounds including the final.
Sometimes, results from an earlier phase are carried over into a later phase. In the Cricket World Cup, the second stage, known as the Super Eight since 2007 and before that the Super Six, features two teams from each of four preliminary groups (previously three teams from two preliminary groups), who do not replay the teams they have already played, but instead reuse the original results in the new league table. Formerly in the Swiss Football League, teams played a double round-robin, at which point they were split into a top “championship” group and a bottom “relegation” group; each played a separate double round-robin, with results of all 32 matches counting for ranking each group. A similar system is also used in the Scottish Premier League since 2000. After 33 games, when every club has played every other club three times, the division is split into two halves. Clubs play a further 5 matches, against the teams in their half of the division. This can (and often does) result in the team placed 7th having a higher points total than the team placed 6th, because their final 5 games are considerably easier.
The top Slovenian basketball league has a unique system. In its first phase, 12 of the league’s 13 clubs compete in a full home-and-away season, with the country’s representative in the Euroleague (an elite pan-European club competition) exempt. The league then splits. The top seven teams are joined by the Euroleague representative for a second home-and-away season, with no results carrying over from the first phase. These eight teams compete for four spots in a final playoff. The bottom five teams play their own home-and-away league, but their previous results do carry over. These teams are competing to avoid relegation, with the bottom team automatically relegated and the second-from-bottom team forced to play a mini-league with the second- and third-place teams from the second level for a place in the top league.
[edit] Promotion and relegationMain article: Promotion and relegation
Where the number of competitors is larger than a tournament format permits, there may be multiple tournaments held in parallel, with competitors assigned to a particular tournament based on their ranking. In chess, Scrabble, and many other individual games, many tournaments over one or more years contribute to a player’s ranking. However, many team sports involve teams in only one major tournament per year. In European sport, including football, this constitutes the sole ranking for the following season; the top teams from each division of the league are promoted to a higher division, while the bottom teams from a higher division are relegated to a lower one.This promotion and relegation occurs mainly in league tournaments, but also features in Davis Cup and Fed Cup tennis:
In the Davis Cup:
The first-round losers in the top-level World Group compete in playoff ties against the winners of the second-round ties in Group I of the competition’s three regional zones, with the winners of each playoff tie remaining in or promoted to the World Group.
In the three regional zones, Group II is conducted in a knockout format. The winner of the knockout tournament is promoted to Group I of its zone. The first-round losers then play relegation ties, with the losers relegated to Group III.
Groups III and IV in each zone are contested in a round-robin format. The top two teams in each group are promoted, while the bottom two teams are relegated (assuming there is a lower group in their zone).
In the Fed Cup:
The four first-round losers in World Group I compete in playoff ties against the four winners in World Group II, with the winners remaining in or promoted to World Group I.
The losers in World Group II play ties against the four zonal Group I winners (two from Europe/Africa and one each from Asia/Oceania and Americas), with the winners playing in World Group II the following season.
Groups I and II in all zones, plus Group III in the Europe/Africa Zone only, are conducted in a round-robin format. The bottom two teams in each group are relegated to the next group down, assuming one exists, while the top two teams in Groups II and III are promoted to the next-higher group.
The hierarchy of divisions may be linear, or tree-like, as with the English football league pyramid.[edit] Bridge tournamentsMain article: duplicate bridge
In contract bridge a “tournament” is a tournament in the first sense above, composed of multiple “events”, which are tournaments in the second sense. Some events may be single-elimination, double-elimination, or Swiss style. However, “Pair events” are the most widespread. In these events, an identical deal (or board) is played in multiple rubbers. The North-South (NS) pair in one such rubber is measured not against the East-West (EW) pair in that same rubber, but rather against all the other NS pairs playing the same board in other rubbers. Thus pairs are rewarded for playing the same cards better than others have played them. Several systems provide a predetermined schedule of fixtures based on the number of pairs and boards to be played, to ensure a good mix of opponents, and that no pair plays the same board twice (see duplicate bridge movements).[edit] Poker tournamentsIn poker tournaments, as players are eliminated, the number of tables is gradually reduced, with the remaining players redistributed among the remaining tables. Play continues until one player has won all of the chips in play. Finishing order is determined by the order in which players are eliminated: last player remaining gets 1st place, last player eliminated gets 2nd, previous player eliminated gets 3rd, etc.
In a “shootout” tournament, players do not change tables until every table has been reduced to one player.
[edit] Alternatives to tournament systems This article’s factual accuracy is disputed. Please see the relevant discussion on the talk page. (January 2011)
While tournament structures attempt to provide an objective format for determining the best competitor in a game or sport, other methods exist.
Challenge
In this format, champions retain their title until they are defeated by an opponent, known as the challenger. This system is used in professional boxing (see lineal championship). Prior to 1993, it was also used in the World Chess Championship. The right to become a contender may be awarded through a tournament, as in chess, or through a ranking system: the ranking systems used by boxing’s governing bodies are controversial and opaque. If the champion retires or dies, then the current top challenger may be declared champion or the title may be vacant until a match between two challengers is held. Prior to 1920, the reigning Wimbledon champion received a bye to the final; the official name of the FA Challenge Cup reflects a similar arrangement which applied only in that tournament’s very early years. The America’s Cup is decided between the winners of separate champion and challenger tournaments, respectively for yachts from the country of the reigning champion, and of all other countries. The Ranfurly Shield in New Zealand rugby union is a challenge trophy between provincial teams, in which the holders of the Shield retain it until they are beaten by a challenging province.
Ladder tournament
The ladder is an extension of the challenge system. All competitors are ranked on a “ladder”. New contestants join the bottom of the ladder. Any contestant can challenge a competitor ranked slightly higher; if the challenger wins the match (or the challenge is refused) they swap places on the ladder. Ladders are common in internal club competitions in individual sports, like squash and pool. Another ladder system is to give competitors a certain number of ranking points at the start. If two competitors play each other, then the winner will gain a percentage of the loser’s ranking points. In this way competitors that join later will generally start in the middle, since top competitors already have won ranking points and bottom competitors have lost them.
Selection
A champion may be selected by an authorised or self-appointed group, often after a vote. While common in non-competitive activities, ranging from science fairs to cinema’s Oscars, this is rarely significant in sports and games. Though unofficial, the polls run by the Associated Press and others were prestigious titles in American college football prior to the creation in 1998 of the Bowl Championship Series, a quasi-official national championship (to this day, the NCAA does not officially award a championship in the top division of college football). As of the 2005 season, the AP Poll operates independently of the BCS and can crown a different national champion, while two other polls are part of the BCS formula.
If that big block of text wasn’t enough now you want to argue what semantics means?
Semantics (from Greek sēmantiká, neuter plural of sēmantikós)12 is the study of meaning. It typically focuses on the relation between signifiers, such as words, phrases, signs and symbols, and what they stand for, their denotata.
Linguistic semantics is the study of meaning that is used by humans to express themselves through language. Other forms of semantics include the semantics of programming languages, formal logics, and semiotics.
The word “semantics” itself denotes a range of ideas, from the popular to the highly technical. It is often used in ordinary language to denote a problem of understanding that comes down to word selection or connotation. This problem of understanding has been the subject of many formal inquiries, over a long period of time, most notably in the field of formal semantics. In linguistics, it is the study of interpretation of signs or symbols as used by agents or communities within particular circumstances and contexts.3 Within this view, sounds, facial expressions, body language, proxemics have semantic (meaningful) content, and each has several branches of study. In written language, such things as paragraph structure and punctuation have semantic content; in other forms of language, there is other semantic content.3
The formal study of semantics intersects with many other fields of inquiry, including lexicology, syntax, pragmatics, etymology and others, although semantics is a well-defined field in its own right, often with synthetic properties.4 In philosophy of language, semantics and reference are related fields. Further related fields include philology, communication, and semiotics. The formal study of semantics is therefore complex.
Semantics contrasts with syntax, the study of the combinatorics of units of a language (without reference to their meaning), and pragmatics, the study of the relationships between the symbols of a language, their meaning, and the users of the language.5
In international scientific vocabulary semantics is also called semasiology
Someone has apparently dropped their linguistics department into my MMA blog
Very nice copy and paste work.
"You mean when an internet blogger disagrees with your opinion on semantics you will get all insulted and talk for hours about different semantics that have no bearing on any part of the actual story? "
Arguing with my opinion on semantics? Dude, the word is Tournament, that’s what this is, the guy who wrote this article is just plain wrong, not open for semantics.
Semantics would be arguing over the definition/context of a word that is open to interpretation. When TOURNAMENT is used to describe the 8 man, single elimination, winner advances event which all participants have agreed to. There is NO ROOM FOR FOR SEMANTICS HERE, this is by DEFINITION what it should be called A TOURNAMENT. It’s not open to other interpretations.
So for Joe Blow Internet blogger to have a title like “The Strikeforce Heavyweight Tournament Is a Great Idea, but It’s Not a Tournament” is an Oxymoron, says it’s not a tournament buy calling it a tournament the whole article?
Some people just want to argue the hows and whys cause they dont know WHAT the f their talking about.
Who cares what the title of the article was? Who cares what you call it? If Strikeforce called it the “Big Time Dance Off Thingy” instead of a tournament would it change anything about it at all? Would there be any difference? Would it be worth wasting this much time and effort to talk about? I’m not arguing if it’s a tournament or not because I couldn’t give a fat rats ass, I am pointing out the utter lunacy of people getting bent out of shape over what it’s called instead of actually talking about what is going on.
Good God
"He embodies this cultural shift that we have and it really started with Dr.Dre selling us NWA and selling us the culture of gangster is cool, Yeah gangster is cool in a way to watch a movie. But being gangster is just being a little kid. And starting a big brawl because, What? I talked some shit to your homie, that is just ghetto and that thing is what embodies what is wrong with america right now" Jason "mayhem" Miller on Nick Diaz
Obviously you missed the humor here, I’m not taking any moral high ground I am making fun of people getting so bent out of shape about something so trivial. Sometimes humor is lost on the internet but if you can’t see the incredible humor in 300 post arguing about what a tournament is defined as instead of what is going on in the tournament (or even the real points in the article) then perhaps you are the one who needs a shorter horse.
The format is that of a tournament. Yes it’s not seeded in a traditional fashion, but that doesn’t mean it is any less of a tournament event.
by Superstitiousmma on Jan 10, 2011 6:13 PM EST reply actions
Everyone seems to be so excited for this tournament due to the Overeem/Fedor/Werdum triangle
They all want to know if Overeem can plow through the competition like he has everyone else so far? Can Werdum pull off the impossible and beat Overeem and then Fedor again? Or can Fedor rebound and prove that he is still the number one heavyweight in the world and that Werdum’s submission victory was just a fluke? Honestly, I don’t want any of these guys to win. I’m hoping, no, praying for an Arlovski title run. If Andrei came back and won the title after going win less for over two years, that would easily be a candidate for 2011 story of the year.
Ya, you’re boy didn’t look good against big foot though, who a lot of people are calling the weakest link of the 8 fighters, it will be tough for him.
I agree the Fedor triangle as you said, is what im really excited for too, the other 4 fighters are just bonuses im looking forward to.
I think Barnett has a good chance against Fedor or Overeem in the finals.
Your Right
300+ comments for a subject that nobody cares about. Thats some funny shit
"He embodies this cultural shift that we have and it really started with Dr.Dre selling us NWA and selling us the culture of gangster is cool, Yeah gangster is cool in a way to watch a movie. But being gangster is just being a little kid. And starting a big brawl because, What? I talked some shit to your homie, that is just ghetto and that thing is what embodies what is wrong with america right now" Jason "mayhem" Miller on Nick Diaz
It’s going to happen, it’s just probably not going to happen like it looks on paper.
There will be an injury here, a contract snafu there, and probably a few oher unplanned delays thrown in for good measure. Regardless, it is still a quality ‘tournament’ even if it doesn’t go down exactly as planned.
Strikeforce made brackets I already have mine filled out what do you mean this isn't a tourny!!!!
Twitter @MaZZM
http://mazznettt.blogspot.com/
Picture fail.
I'm Don Frye and you're not - Don Frye
by MrTechnique420 on Jan 10, 2011 9:45 PM EST up reply actions
replace all the "uh"s and “you know”s, and you have dana white as the promoter for strikeforce.
"That's racism man, I love to racism bro!"
by Hendo_One-Shot on Jan 10, 2011 10:33 PM EST reply actions
Uhhhh, no.
It’s a tournament, they just learned the lessons somewhat of the UFC. The UFC did an1-8, 2-7 type of seeding and didn’t get the Shamrock Gracie matchup (or equivalent) that they wanted. So after multiple failed attempts to get 1-2 in the finals, they decided at Ultimate Ultimate 2 to put Shamrock vs Tank Abbott in the semifinal to “guarantee” their 1-2 matchup would happen….except Shamrock broke his hand an it didn’t happen.
by Warpear on Jan 10, 2011 10:38 PM EST via mobile reply actions
How many times does Coker say you know?
Use rep code SCALIA at karmaloop.com for 20% your entire order
http://www.karmaloop.com/index.asp?rcode=SCALIA
And more importantly
why do the writer leave them in there, aside from trying to make him sound like a…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Jan 11, 2011 9:54 AM EST up reply actions
This is almost (yes almost) the same view as what I've been saying about the GP...
sure, it’s a tournament, but it’s not a “Grand Prix” in the meaning we are used to… It’s just normal matchmaking, with their plans booked and announced early.
It’s like Strikeforce had a pretty girl, and the “Grand Prix” label and booking things early, added nice clothes and make up that covered any minor imperfections and accentuated her assets, making the pretty girl look like a Victoria’s Secret super model.
No more complaints about the title lacking value.
No more complaints about the top HWs not fighting.
No more contract negotiations after every fight.
No more complaints about contenders not being marketed properly.
No more complaints about contenders being “undeserving” of a title shot.
Winnner winner chicken dinner… and that’s all because they cleverly booked early, added the label “grand prix” to get more notoriety, and to maximize the exposure.
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![The Master Cleanse.
– Is Nick Diaz looking for another cleanse "ritual"?
– "He was surprised he tested positive," Gracie said. "He does the same ritual every fight for the last five years. He stops it in time and he cleanses his system, works out like crazy, drinks a lot of water and purges his system of it" [Cesar Gracie] via bloodyelbow.com
– Is "NickDiaz209" really Nick Diaz's YouTube account?
Here's a video of MMA Fighting's Ariel Helwani asking Diaz about the account.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33UO_ksPgkY
– starts @ 09:57
via YouTube [NickDiaz209]](http://cdn2.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/240628/gzHF_small.jpeg)
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