More on the Great "Keep Your Pro Wrestling Out of My MMA" Debate
by Kid Nate on Sep 7, 2010 4:51 PM EDT
in Business of MMA
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I posted last week on the comments of Luke Thomas and Jordan Breen regarding attempts to view MMA throught a pro wrestling lens.
I wanted to share two reponses in this installment. First Geno Mrosko from Cage Side Seats focusing on the ad hominem parts of Luke's argument:
Is he trying to piss off people like me and you who enjoy pro wrestling? It would appear so, now wouldn't it? It gets people talking and that's a lot of the point. But make no mistake, he actually believes a lot of what he is saying. Hard to believe, I know, but he really does. We're trying not to hold it against you Luke but you're making it hard on us.
Most hatred is rooted in ignorance and this is no different. The Attitude Era had it's pros and cons. This seems to be an instance of Thomas, among so many others, believing that we love wrestling because of the "sports entertainment" side of it. That the only reason we tune in is to listen to these guys cut promos and spray beer all over the place. This couldn't be any further from the truth. A wrestling match is an art form. When done properly, by talented guys who know how to work a crowd, it's a beautiful thing. I guess he can't get past the fact that they aren't actually punching each other or trying to hurt each other to see what is clear as day to the rest of us; there is more to it than that. They are telling a story with each move they make and you have to see past the surface to find it.
And here's Chad Dukes, Luke's colleague at 106.7 The Fan:
And I just, to me, the one thing that stood out by this (and Luke's a friend of mine and Luke has helped me you know get a foot hold in the MMA community and I'm excited for that) but what I don't understand is that he is really upset about the wrestling terminology, which your average wrestling fan isn't even aware of. Like what we're talking about is what I call "P1's". In radio that means people that call your radio show and know everything about it, they're the people that are really into it. And I don't understand what the gripe is. Because if you're just talking about terminology and you're talking about that you don't want to say that "Chael Sonnen is over" or "Chael Sonnen is getting heat"; well then would you say sometimes a guy will take a touchdown back from the one yard line and you say, "Wow that really was you know, he just hit a homerun", you know you say, "That was a slam dunk". I mean terminology in sports crosses over all the time; I wonder what is so particularly offensive about wrestling terminology, professional wrestling terminology, crossing over into MMA?
And one more point from Dukes:
Luke knows that I don't agree with everything he says, he doesn't agree with everything that I say. But we both have a common goal and that is to take Mixed Martial Arts into the mainstream, to take it to mainstream sports fans, like baseball fans and basketball fans and say, "Look!" And I'm of the mind, and I don't know how you feel about this Geno, but I'm of the mind that I don't care how you get onboard the boat, just get on the boat.
...And the way that I got on the boat, I'll tell you what it was, I can tell you the EXACT moment: I had been one of those guys that maybe saw one Mixed Martial Arts fight a year when my boys got it. Drab T-Shirt, who you talked to, my Producer and I, we went to go see Brock Lesnar's first fight, we went to go see him fight Frank Mir. And what happened was we saw four fights on that card that were gangbuster, balls out, action. And it was one of the best spectacles I'd ever watched. But we would not be fans of Mixed Martial Arts if Brock Lesnar, a professional wrestler, hadn't gone over and fought in it. And that was, this was, only two or three years ago. So what I am saying, for Luke to say that, to me it upsets me because that's how I became a fan and I think that's how a lot of people are getting drug over. And I think that would actually help people like Luke take the sport to other sports fans.
That's where I part ways with Luke. Pro wrestling fans have been the biggest part of the UFC explosion of the past five years. From those who tuned in to watch the first season of The Ultimate Fighter because it followed WWE's RAW program to those who checked out the UFC to see how Brock Lesnar would fare, a fan is a fan and we need all of their support if the UFC is going to become a truly mainstream sporting promotion.
I'll finish up this series tomorrow with commentary from K.J. Gould.
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Most, i'd say at least 70% of MMA fans are or were wrestling fan
Even Luke Thomas was a big fan of wrestling and played with the toys until he was 13 (in his words). Most of your MMA reporters were pro wrestling fans and reporters.
Here’s your proof. UFC 81, who got a bigger pop? Nogueira or Stone Cold? Undertaker or Frank Mir? Stone Cold hadn’t been actively involved in wrestling in years and yet outpopped the champion. MMA fans need to get their nose out of the air. The biggest "anti-pro wrestling " guys are the biggest fans of pro wrestling (or were).
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
46.74% of statistics are made up…
"The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world..."
by Rudinho479 on Sep 7, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I’m a statistician by profession…I wish I was kidding.
"The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world..."
Hate it and never watched it?
Notice I said are or WERE.
You bring out Stone Cold to a an MMA event, he gets a bigger reaction than Frankie Edgar. You bring Goldberg to the UFC Expo and his autograph line will be longer than Edgar’s.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s sort of a loaded example though. Edgar is a weak champion in terms of promotion from the marketing standpoint. That would be like bringing Chuck Liddell to a wrestling conference and putting him next to whoever the current “Intercontinental Champion” is. For example, according to their website, their current Intercontinental Champion is “Dolph Ziggler.” Good luck with that, Dolph.
Side note: That’s not a knock against Edgar or the lightweight belt. Great fighter, well deserved wins, just not a strong marketing presence yet.
by BurtBacharach on Sep 7, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Well Chuck is still active, Austin isn't
But I get your point. I’m sure the Austin line would bigger than a Shogun line (unfortunately).
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
A lot of people on this site outgrew / lost interest in wresting
Independent of becoming MMA fans. There was no linkage between the two for me.
by truck on Sep 7, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Never said there was a linkage or evolution
I said that they are or were wrestling fans.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I never said you did... Just stating a different point.
While there is a strong relationship between wrestling fans and MMA fans, I don’t know that there was a causal relationship. I think there fact is, that a huge amount of males over the last 20 years followed wresting at least a little bit. Male football fans in the same age range might be similarly associated. We don’t really know.
Exactly
I guarantee 90% of MMA fans were fans of cartoons when they were younger. So what?
by Dootch on Sep 7, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Cartoons aren't niche though
Most kids watch cartoons.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Most kids watch wrestling
Or did. I know all of my friends did.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
they don't
Not even 10 percent of kids watched wrestling. If more did, there wouldn’t be such a stigma attached to it and Luke wouldn’t have had to hide in his room playing wrestling with his Macho Man Savage dolls.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
What the shit are you talking about? The stigma comes from STILL watching wrestling as an adult. Pretty much every male friend I have (I’m 21) watched pro wrestling when they were a kid.
"You hear people say, 'You're the greatest,' and all this stuff. It's BS. It's fake, it's all fake. You've just got to keep training as hard as you can. The only thing real is the fight, everything else is fake." - BJ Penn
No.
I don’t know how old you are, but when I was in the 3rd grade there was STILL a stigma attached to wrestling.
I know I got into a couple fights over people talking shit about me for watching wrestling.
Maybe things were different because you were young during the DX and nWo days, but when I was a kid, it was Hogan and Warrior.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Stamford, CT?
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Canada
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
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No stigma here either.
Most kids I knew growing up watched wrasslin’. You only got made fun of if you were one of those goofs who took it too far and did the backyard wrasslin’ thing.
Did you grow up in the big city?
And are you younger than 25?
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Grew up in Cincinnati and I am an old bastard, probably one of the oldest guys here. Born in the 1960s kind of old.
So your wrestling fandom was during the regional days
When wrestlers were tough sumbitches.
The Hogan era there was a definite “Wrestling is corny” stigma.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 8, 2010 5:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, everyone I know watched wrestling, too.
Though, I lived in Alberta at the time, and the presence of the Hart family basically made wrestling fandom mandatory.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
Can't be too many that followed it
At it’s peak, only 11 million people tuned in
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Higher than
any single cartoon show. Like the poster above said, when I was a kid, every boy I knew watched some, and every kid knew the big stars. Just like He-Man.
No, Hogan was just popular enough
And wrestling was still niche.
Wrestling is niche now and John Cena is in kids’ movies. It’s a terrible point.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
You realize that the 11 million was mostly ADULTS
And that was ONE show. Meanwhile there were cartoons on 10 different channels on Saturday morning alone. Not to mention every day.
C’mon son. Be real. You said that they watched cartoons. That’s a whole genre. You’d have to add up the ratings for ALL cartoons on ALL channels each day. That number DWARFS wrestling.
Let’s have a legit discussion.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I can see that
Dad watching the RAW show, yelling at his three boys..“Get outta here! This is ADULTS time!!”
I said MOSTLY adults
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Legit discussion. We can't
because you are trying to force feed your opinion down everyone else’s throat.
I'm not forcefeeding anything
My point/opinion:
A vast majority of MMA fans watched wrestling which is a niche sport (not like cartoons), so it’s funny that a large portion of the base and its media are from wrestling
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
But you are dismissing the idea that watching wrestling was pretty normal amongst groups of teenage boys. At least that was the experience of many people on here. Maybe it was just among certain demographic groups, but it happened.
I'm not saying it's not "normal"
I’m saying that it wasn’t the norm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Normal for kids
Weird for teens+
Watching wrestling when you were a kid was about as common as watching Ninja Turtles or Power Rangers. And just like there are adult superfans who LOVE Power Rangers, there are the same with wrestling.
Kids who liked wrestling consisted of a large chunk of young boys. Teens it was marginalized, adults even moreso. All of these random terms from hardcore internet fans pretty much only appeal to those teen+ age kids who were the exception watching wrestling. The rest of people who watched when they were kids because it was kids’ entertainment are just scratching our heads.
by Jason H. on Sep 7, 2010 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Not where I was from
You had to hide you love of wrestling. Again, this were different in the Hogan/Warrior era. After the nWo came in 1996, wrestling became cool again. But if you were in elementary during the Hogan era, there was a stigma.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
what evidence are you using? if pro wrestling did better numbers than pokemon on their respective peaks, I will be stunned. I can’t find any statistics to make empirical claims though, do you have any?
It didn't
Pokemon was a worldwide phenomenon
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Was?
Brotha that shit is still going strong to this day, and it was first popping off when I was still in grade school.
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
11 million tuned into the Monday night shows.
I don’t know about you, but as a kid I got into wrestling by watching saturday morning syndicated shows after cartoons were over. Tack on all those viewers to that 11 million and you get a pretty big number.
Those shows were watched by the same people
It’s called overlap.
I bet you that number won’t compare if you add up EVERY cartoon on EVERY channel that ran EVERY day. The wrestling number wouldn’t even been 1/20th.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Those shows were watched by the same people
No they weren’t.
I never watched Monday night shows until I was in my teens. My pre-teen wrestling fix was exclusively from Saturday mornings. Also, by the time I started watching Monday night shows, I had stopped watching on Saturday mornings. That was a pretty typical growth curve back in the day.
I'm saying though
By the time the Monday shows came around, Superstars was all but eliminated. It became more of a recap show and was harder and harder to find in many markets (it was syndicated), by 1997, it had been replaced by Sunday Night Heat and Shotgun Saturday Night.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Those days are over and they are never coming back.
Wrestling is in decline. It is not going to come back to previous levels. Ever. MMA has gotten all they ever will from pro-wrestling at this point.
Wrestling goes in cycles
wrestling was in a decline right before the Attitude era and the Hogan era as well, all you really need is a couple of guys to come in that have mad amounts of charisma and they’ll start peaking again.
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
There were other people putting money into the business. Big money. No one is going to try to directly compete with the WWE after they saw what happened to Turner. Things become stale and the fan base dwindles. Last quarters earning were terrible. They lost network TV presence. The founder is getting old. I’m not saying that it won’t have some peaks. I’m just saying they will never be high as they were.
Maybe, maybe not
I’m sure nobody figured wrestling would ever be able to top the Hogan era of the late 80s but it happened, as long as the product is available the opportunity is still there.
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
Of course anything is possible. But, the ceiling has been reached and there is no one else out there that is going to infuse new funding into the business. That is what fueled the 90’s. Wasn’t just characters, it was the money being dumped in by two major organizations to promote them. So, now it has to cannibalize off of past events while spending tons of money to bring in “mainstream” attractions. How much was Floyd Mayweather paid? Now, look at MMA. No real competitor to UFC. Brock’s fans have reached their saturation point. So, Dana is trolling for Toney and paying him some ridiculous purse to bring in casual fans. There has to be a tipping point. We haven’t seen it yet.
You know
Probably a high percentage of males in the United States were pro wrestling fans at some point in their lives. It doesn’t mean it defines them for the rest of their lives, or decides their future fanship. Co-relation does not imply causation.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
by Neil Manich on Sep 7, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I know that
I’m just saying that there were fans. I never implied a causation.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
In that case
I don’t see how its relevant.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
by Neil Manich on Sep 7, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Cause Stone Cold said so?
"You hear people say, 'You're the greatest,' and all this stuff. It's BS. It's fake, it's all fake. You've just got to keep training as hard as you can. The only thing real is the fight, everything else is fake." - BJ Penn
by crazybones on Sep 7, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Well, the point is
That a large portion of the MMA fanbase is made up of pro wrestling (former) fans. That’s why you get terminology used like heel and face.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
How many people kids know those terms? I know them from people using them here and now not from watching pro wrestling when I was a kid.
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Richard is a jewel." - Kid Nate
by Richard Wade on Sep 7, 2010 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Whoops
Um, strike the “people” in front of “kids.”
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Richard is a jewel." - Kid Nate
The terms "heel" and "face" were used a lot
if you grew up watching wrestling during the late 90s and if you also followed on the net
Those terms aren’t just limited to wrestling. The heel goes back centuries.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I just watched it on tv. I don’t remember ever hearing the terms thrown around during broadcasts.
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Richard is a jewel." - Kid Nate
Did you watch the Russo era?
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions
What?
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Richard is a jewel." - Kid Nate
1997-2000, Vince Russo was known to writer storylines for the "smart fans"
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions
And we are saying what you pointed out is irrelevant.
by RoB_ex on Sep 7, 2010 5:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
PRIDE was pro wrestling with real fights
If you claim to love PRIDE, you can’t hate pro wrestling. You’re a hypocrite if you say otherwise.
And MMA fans that turn your nose at former/current wrestling fans know two things 1) we know when we’re being worked and you don’t and 2) You’ll NEVER..and THE ROCK MEANSSSS NEVER…be as big as pro wrestling was. Hell, even at it’s low point right now, it still has 4 million tuning in every week. Seriously doubt MMA could pull that off especially week to week. Nevertheless, getting 9 million viewers on CABLE while your competition in the same sport is drawing another 3 or 4 million at the same time.
/sarcasm
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If you claim to love PRIDE, you can’t hate pro wrestling. You’re a hypocrite if you say otherwise.
uhh, no.
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by GregS123 on Sep 7, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 12 recs
Yes.
Everything about PRIDE was pro wrestling except the actual fights. And even then, a lot of fights are mismatches aka pro wrestling squash matches.
My point isn’t that you had to have liked pro wrestling if you liked PRIDE, just that PRIDE was pro wrestling and it’s funny that people look down on pro wrestling when wrestling fans watched wrestling for the same reason that people miss pride for the most part.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Pride only really shared the spectacle of pro wrestling
and even then it’s not like the spectacle was the main reason for tuning in, that was for the actual fights. Also Pride may have had some manufactured heat, but nothing comparable to the over the top cheesy storylines of pro wrestling.
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
What the hell
pdl pretty much already said the exact same thing directly below me, I’m gettin too old for this shit.
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
Glad someone agrees.
I’ve avoided this because I don’t care about pro wrestling. I’m happier honestly not giving a shit about it and not knowing about it. It’s just like Jersey Shore to me; tons of absurd drama and bad fake tans. If you enjoy watching it, whatever. I’m not going to, enjoy your entertainment product.
But pro wrestling fans are so intent on shoving it down our throats that it’s not something we can ignore. Stop trying to tell me how the sport I love watching and participating in is exactly like your entertainment product. We can easily say MMA is just like the music industry where, while talent is necessary to maintain success, it’s about who the label/promotion chooses to push that brings in money. MMA IS THE MUZAK INTDUSTRY AND BROCK IS KE$HA!
So tiring…
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by pdl on Sep 7, 2010 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I actually used to be a pretty substantial WWF fan during the Attitude era days when I was growing up
and I still keep tabs to this day for nostalgias sake, but even to me this just all seems excessive. Although there have been ties to pro wrestling and MMA before, I would assume that this primarily has to do with Brock and the substantial amount of pro wrestling fans he brought over with his run
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
Actually, pro wrestling fans are NOT intent on shoving it down your throat
THIS WHOLE DEBATE BEGAN when people said Chael was using Pro wrestling to build up his fight.
Guess the hell what? He WAS!
It’s not like people are pointing to every fight as pro wrestling.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Essentially all of your comments are either
A) PROWRESTLING!
B) That’s racist.
C) Shane Carwin is a sanctimonious ass and should be ashamed.
D) BROCKLESNAR!
Every so often a story has something to do with those and it works out, but you miss just as much as you hit.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I am a ridiculous PRIDE fan,
and never liked pro wrestling. At all. Which is a perfectly normal stance to have.
Just because we enjoy some spectacle in our sport doesn’t mean we have to like what is a completely different product.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Sep 7, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Everything is a black/white issue with Black Lesnar, and I mean that in every sense of the phrase
"Frankie Edgar... beat the fuck out of Snooki, that's why she looks like Dio after Sabbath." --Joey Diaz
by Anthony Pace on Sep 7, 2010 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You ever notice?
White people be watching wrestling all like this- “Hmm, why this is certainly an interesting contest between these two individuals.”
But black people be watching wrestling like this-“HE JUST DID A BACKDROP AWW THAT NIGGA CRAZY, THAT NIGGA CRAZY!”
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
Seems like a jab on bad black comedians talking about white people. I think a lot of my white friends would actually go with the second quote.
What?
I thought I was making a legitimate observation on the contrasting natures of the audience ;)
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
I just imagined thugnificent watching prowrestling with the german journalist.
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by Scott C. Broussard on Sep 7, 2010 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Ahahahaha
Hell yeah. And we be watchin it on bootleg cable.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions
The sad thing is
we really did get to watch all the PPVs in my house thanks to our nifty black box.
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
Me too son
Me too, my house was the hotspot to watch the nWo-era shows. 5 dollars to get in or food and/or drinks
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Well damn
we didn’t think to make a business out of it.
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
That black box had more to do with getting me into MMA than anything else.
(just kidding Time Warner)
I want to clarify
I was also just kidding and would never personally take part in any illegal activity under any circumstances especially in relation to my local cable provider.
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
we really did get to watch all the PPVs in my house thanks to our nifty black box.
Why it gotta be a black box?
by Steve4192 on Sep 7, 2010 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
You're right. All I'm saying is
Some of the things fans missed most about PRIDE are the same things people loved/love in pro wrestling.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
No, this is what you said.
If you claim to love PRIDE, you can’t hate pro wrestling. You’re a hypocrite if you say otherwise.
I cannot stand to watch pro wrestling at all. I watch PRIDE shows all the time. Your constant use of extremes is a poor way to get valid points across, because you end up saying things that are just wrong.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
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by pdl on Sep 7, 2010 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you "hate' pro wrestling?
And you doesn’t always me YOU.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I hate watching it.
I think it’s fucking stupid and honestly could not sit in a room with people who were watching it. But if I started a crusade against every dumb thing on television, I’d have a long ass list of things to worry about. So I just ignore it.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Sep 7, 2010 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Hahaha
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I love Pride.
But Pro wrestling rubs me the wrong way.
I just can’t enjoy what happens on a Pro wrestling ring, it feels dull to me, and way too goofy (goofy punches, goofy kicks, the acrobatics a real though, but I’m a fighting fan). How am I hypocritical? I’d like to know.
I'm a lover not a fighter
by spectaa on Sep 7, 2010 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Yeah you seem to be enjoying that rubbing :(
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I enjoyed Nobuhiko Takada’s promotion before pride, ankle lock, leg kick, arm bar. It looked staged, but not too fake, if that makes any sense. And there was no weird Drama, those dude were fighting, and that’s it.
I'm a lover not a fighter
But it was still worked
That’s how Japanese pro wrestling is. Very realistic. I’m not talking about the actual inring stuff of PRIDE being pro wrestling, I’m talking abuot everything else surrounding it.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
My cat died yesterday, and it was the most awesome cat I ever had. So you’re going to see some cat gifs in the next few days.
I'm a lover not a fighter
Lost my puppy (was an old dog but still a puppy to me) a month or two ago.
Sucks to lose a pet. Hope they went peacefully.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Sep 7, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry to hear that.
Also lost a cat a few weeks ago. He was 22 years old, human time. He was an amazing animal and I’ll miss him a lot.
Sorry again about your loss, sir.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
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22? Damn what did you feed him? That's amazing.
I don’t like cats all that much but I know someone who owned a cat until it passed at age 16. Never seen a number higher than that.
Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.
I think
the oldest a cat has ever lived is like 35 years.
He was well fed and taken care of anytime he got sick. He was a warrior though. Don’t know how he made it so long but I’m happy he did.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
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Mine was about 16 too, apparently he got hit by a car (what the kids playing around the house said) and had internal bleeding, and died during the night at the vet. But let’s stop with the depressing stories!
I'm a lover not a fighter
Dead cat talk is only slightly more depressing than a bunch of grown men getting heated over pro wrestling.
by Chris Nelson on Sep 7, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
I just read that whole thing and can’t stop laughing. I love how there’s all this pro wrestling rage and in the middle, a conversation about dead cats.
"You hear people say, 'You're the greatest,' and all this stuff. It's BS. It's fake, it's all fake. You've just got to keep training as hard as you can. The only thing real is the fight, everything else is fake." - BJ Penn
Holy shit that's brilliant.
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by Derek Suboticki on Sep 7, 2010 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know if I can get behind that either. Let’s say a newer UFC fan gets turned on to Pride from watching the Best Of show on Spike. Unless you watched carefully you wouldn’t even know there were elements of pro wrestling in Pride without the promos or fighter intros, but you would still be watching some of the best fights ever captured on video.
by BurtBacharach on Sep 7, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but they're watching highlights
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe, but they’re not watching highlights of the fights, they’re watching the fights. I’m just saying you can be a fan of PRIDE for the fights and not a fan of the Pro Wrestling antics. I actually enjoy the spectacle myself, just saying I don’t think the initial comment is fair or even possible without a very exclusive definition of “fan.”
by BurtBacharach on Sep 7, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
The fights are edited a little
And it’s the most exciting fights. If I showed you the best tennis matches of all-time, you’d be a fan.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Plus I'm not talking about new fans
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Why do you try so hard to be polarizing?
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
by Neil Manich on Sep 7, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
he's playing heel
I’m sorry, I really have no opinion on this, but I couldn’t pass that up in this thread.
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by Scott Christ on Sep 7, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 8 recs
LOL,
Hey look it’s Scott Christ
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Someone let me know when Craig Christ shows up...
"Frankie Edgar... beat the fuck out of Snooki, that's why she looks like Dio after Sabbath." --Joey Diaz
by Anthony Pace on Sep 7, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Because honest opinions don’t always illicit as many responses?
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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by Worldisart on Sep 7, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think they are hypocrites
Because liking spectacle in fiction doesn’t mean you’ll enjoy it in sport, but I think it’s naive to not understand and admit that PRIDE was essentially Pro Wrestling.
I think it really pisses people off, I don’t know why, that some of the greatest fighters MMA has ever seen were Pro Wrestlers.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
Is the best base pro wrestling?
LOL
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
SAAAAKUUUURAAAAAAAAAAABA!
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions
=) I'll never forget,, on Sherdog, when Lasnar first came to MMA
The OUTRAGE about him. I had endless conversations like this;
Sherdog ’Tard: I HATE BROCK LESNAR, Pro Wrestling has no place ruining my sport
Me: It shows Sakuraba as one of your favorite fighters
SDT: That’s right! PRIDE NEVER DIE
Me: /facepalm
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Sep 7, 2010 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And I’m of the mind, and I don’t know how you feel about this Geno, but I’m of the mind that I don’t care how you get onboard the boat, just get on the boat.
I could totally be wrong but I don’t remember Luke saying he didn’t want pro wrestling fans to be MMA fans. It seemed to me like it was just a pet peeve to him when someone used pro wrestling terminology. I don’t agree with him on that point either since to me it’s not a literal comparison, but I don’t remember leaving with the impression that he’d rather pro wrestling fans weren’t MMA fans.
This debate is weird...
I don’t think MMA has gone in any sort of weird wrestling centric direction. At least not relative to other sports. Is Chad Ochocinco using wrestling to drive his character? I really think this is much ado about nothing.
by truck on Sep 7, 2010 5:04 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I think its just a case of the internet being self important
One writer takes offense to other writers using wrestling nomenclature, uses brash words, upsets other writers. Then they bicker at eachother for a while. MMA is not changed in anyway. The UFC still uses the WWE’s business model, and all sports continue to trash talk.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
by Neil Manich on Sep 7, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Also, posts mean activity and activity means a better Google PageRank.
This topic is easy pickings. I don’t expect to see anything new on the subject but yet here I am reading and posting.
I haven’t watched wrestling since papa shango poisoned the ultimate warrior, I think I was 10 years old then.
I don’t really see why people like it as they get older, but I guess it is a soap opera for men.
“Pro wrestling fans have been the biggest part of the UFC explosion of the past five years. "
Any facts to support this?
A ton of fans bout UFC 81 for the first time because of Lesnar, Same with 91 and 100
According to Dave Meltzer
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
The first MMA card I ever watched was UFC 81 Breaking Point. The reason I watched it was because of Brock Lesnar.
I know the difference between MMA and Pro Wrestling. I also know there are some crossover elements. I don’t see a problem with that. Stupid people who draw stupid comparisons will always exist in everything. To insult everyone who is a fan of something is ridiculous. To each their own.
"He sucks weiner! He sucks weiner!" - II SMASH II
But you've got to admit
There’s nothing wrong with saying Chael used a pro wrestling build.
That’s what started Luke on this diatribe.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
meh, shit talking existed before pro wrestling
"He sucks weiner! He sucks weiner!" - II SMASH II
by Earl Montclair on Sep 7, 2010 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Shit talking of that nature did not
And it was perfected by wrestling
Did Ford invent the car? No.
But when people talk about creators of cars, they talk Ford.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions
+
+
+
More eyeballs = more $$$ = better paid fighters top-to-bottom = better fighters in the sport
"Frankie Edgar... beat the fuck out of Snooki, that's why she looks like Dio after Sabbath." --Joey Diaz
by Anthony Pace on Sep 7, 2010 5:08 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Short term cash vs long term gains
Don Draper avoids stunts for a reason. Just playing devil’s advocate really, but still.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
I agree.
James Toney was a stupid stunt and hurt the sport more than it helped. It also didn’t really make much money.
Lesnar is a success.
Kimbo, everyone knew he was a farce, but he was compelling, he definitely helped more than hurt as he brought in Black fans.
Herschel is unknown.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Herschel is mostly harmless. He seems to have the right mentality and isn’t getting the Toney or Batista treatment from promoters.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Herschel will continue to draw attention to the sport...
As long as Rex Ryan keeps going to his fights.
by BurtBacharach on Sep 7, 2010 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions
"James Toney was a stupid stunt and hurt the sport more than it helped."
I fail to see how it hurt anything. It’s a blip in an otherwise stellar booking record for the UFC, a blip that was acknowledged in the promotion of the fight before either fighter stepped in the cage.
MMA fans always seem to feel the need to categorize thinks as helpful or harmful to the sport, where in reality James Toney vs. Randy Couture failed to make a ripple one way or the other.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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by Worldisart on Sep 7, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I often get my casual MMA fan friends to watch the shows at a bar. They thought that fight was a big gaping hole in a mediocre event. I had to agree.
Fine
But the same thing can be said about other very legitimately booked matches. What I’m saying is, this idea that it was somehow harmful to the UFC and MMA just seems silly. It’s like MMA fans are just looking for a reason why everything is going to fall apart and I don’t get it.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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LIke which matches?
Name a match that was pushed OVER the title match in advertising and build up that was like that fight.
I’m not saying “everything is failling apart”, I’m saying that was a shit fight and made MMA look bad.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
It made MMA look like a joke. I’m sorry, it did. How the fuck did a declining boxer get sanctioned to fight a former recent champion? It made it seem like human cockfighting that a rookie gets thrown in with a championtype fighter.
Toney showed up fat as fuck. I could go on and on.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Like a joke to who?
The same MMA fans that watch every other event? If the consensus opinion is that Toney didn’t draw in any new eyeballs and that it was a pretty run of the mill UFC audience watching then I think it’s safe to say that the three fans who might not watch again, probably weren’t going to watch again anyway.
It’s an over reaction.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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No, not a joke to MMA fans, the fight played to their insecurities
But everyone else in the sporting world
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
So...in MMA you can talk shit and then be given 500K to fight?
Is that what you’re saying? How does that NOT look like a joke?
You think someone can shit talk their way into the NBA? NFL? MLB? Tennis?
You think someone can shit talk their way into a title fight with Mayweather?
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude, really?
Boxing and MMA are both individual combat sports.
The NFL MLB NBA ect are traditional team sports with decades of history.
It’s not even close to the same thing. C’mon man!
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Pain don't hurt...
In boxing, in kickboxing
You think someone can shit talk their way into a big fight against a top 10 fighter?
What about in kickboxing? Can I shit talk my way into fighting Badr Hari?
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
If you're a world class boxer I don't see why not.
Japan love them some freakshow fights.
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Pain don't hurt...
James Toney isn't a world class boxer
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Poor comparison on my really as Overeem had serious kickboxing experience. Still he got to fight one of the top three guys because he talked shit. K-1 is still a legitimate sport.
And kickboxing is a part of MMA, so he's used all the kickboxing tools before
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
But in no way did he deserve the match up. He was 2 of 4 coming into the fight.
They even billed it as K-1 vs. MMA.
Do you understand that
in MMA, he used kickboxing. Kick boxing LIMITED what he could do, but he was used to doing what kickboxing had done. PLUS, he had experience.
James Toney was used to ONE aspect of MMA and going to MMA opened him up to whole new techniques he wasn’t used to.
It’s a big differnce.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Ya and I called myself on the poor comparison.
It remains that in no way did he deserve a fight with one of the top two fighters in the sport.
You do realize it was in Japan right?
They do things a bit different than we do.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
With NO experience
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Top 10?
Couture hasn’t been top 10 – HW or LHW – for a long time, and you are not a world class boxer. And yes, Toney is world class. He is top 30 HW and proven to be at the same level as Rahman.
If Toney shit talked his way into fighting Mighty Mo in K1, yeah, I don’t see why not.
Couture is a win away form a title shot
He’s top 10 in the UFC
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the paydays become a selling point for better athletes. With more eyeballs on these cards, and the fighters salaries going up, that seems like a long-term gain to me.
"Frankie Edgar... beat the fuck out of Snooki, that's why she looks like Dio after Sabbath." --Joey Diaz
Fighter salaries aren't going up
in proportion to revenue.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Nor should they.
MMA is not a mature sport. It is a nascent sport that needs boatloads of reinvestment in order to continue growing. Besides, it’s not like salaries haven’t exploded over the last four years. Entry level salaries have quadrupled over their pre-TUF levels though ($4K show min in 2004 to $8K show min today). That’s some pretty damn solid salary growth.
You realize that 4K to 8K in 6 years is doubling, not quadrupling
And considering the UFC PPV revenue in 2004 was less than the UFC PPV revenue at UFC 115, that’s not saying much.
Plus, other streams of revenue have increased.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Still not much
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions
You're right. They should go up faster than revenue, like we saw in other major sports
When the UFC was smaller, the overhead of the venue, production, staff, licensing, etc. is a much larger percent of revenues, leaving much less for the fighters.
Those costs haven’t gone up very much, but revenues have gone up by an order of magnitude. The Fertittas and White are keeping the vast majority of the profit, much of it probably going towards keeping their casino business afloat while under chapter 11.
well costs have gone up
But it’s still not as proportional.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn't qualify it, now did I?
Didn’t intend to. They will go up across the board as more people flock to the sport.
"Frankie Edgar... beat the fuck out of Snooki, that's why she looks like Dio after Sabbath." --Joey Diaz
Didn't say you did, wanted to make that point though
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Okie dokie
/fist bump
"Frankie Edgar... beat the fuck out of Snooki, that's why she looks like Dio after Sabbath." --Joey Diaz
It will never be mainstream.
Luke knows that I don’t agree with everything he says, he doesn’t agree with everything that I say. But we both have a common goal and that is to take Mixed Martial Arts into the mainstream, to take it to mainstream sports fans, like baseball fans and basketball fans and say, “Look!” And I’m of the mind, and I don’t know how you feel about this Geno, but I’m of the mind that I don’t care how you get onboard the boat, just get on the boat.
I know this is the goal of all of promoters, writers, reporters, MMA fans, etc. But, it is never going to happen. Simply because the mainstream hardly exists anymore. There is so much content, so much entertainment being created and delivered in so many different ways that the mainstream is becoming a very narrow piece of bandwidth. Entertainment today exists in the fringe if it is not already established. If your movie is not The Dark Knight it is hard to get it seen in a theater. If your music is not The Beatles Yes, even to this day thanks to Rock Band) than it becomes difficult to find its way on to a majority of iPods. When it comes to sports it is the same. The established entities will have their audience and they will fight tooth and nail to hang on to it. Pro-Wrestling is in decline. It is going to continue to decline. The pool of fans MMA can borrow from pro-wrestling is getting smaller and may have reached saturation. Now, it becomes a very difficult balancing act of keeping those fans and bringing in new ones. Brock can only fight so many times and more than likely is going to get exposed in his next two fights. In addition, the mold of GSP is creating more and more fighters. While he is dominant, he is not exciting. So, if MMA hitches its wagon to wrestling fans there will be an expiration date. Then what?
I think Pro Wrestling comparisons are useful in some ways:
Business – How they use promotion. e.g. Dana White is the face of the UFC
Promotion – How they promote. Some fighters talk trash, some can’t.
Presentation – How they actually do the show.
Fights – The only relevance here is that some fighters have some moves that share a common ancestor with Pro Wrestling.
If we break it down like this, comparisons with Pro Wrestling don’t bother me, a Pro Wrestling hater, nearly as much.
nobody can tell me its not better with a little pro wrestling
the way guys like Lesnar, Sonnen, and even BJ Penn to an extent promote fights makes it just more compelling. But the key, at least for Sonnen and Lesnar, is that they went out and performed after talking all their shit and it just makes for a fever pitch fight atmosphere.
Vote Quimby
Wait I'm so confused
In this storyline, Luke Thomas is the heel? Is Black Lesnar a tweener, or is it a heel vs. heel situation? And at what point does Kid Nate run in and give them both a Stunner?
"You hear people say, 'You're the greatest,' and all this stuff. It's BS. It's fake, it's all fake. You've just got to keep training as hard as you can. The only thing real is the fight, everything else is fake." - BJ Penn
Probably from the age of 5 till about 3 years ago I was heavily into pro-wrestling.
There was a time when I completely immersed myself into everything wrestling related. From the evolution of Saturday Night Main Event, to Raw, to Nitro, to ECW, to buying the magazines, keeping up with news from wrestling websites you name it. I was really into it
Now, mostly, I was fan of the flashy stars, but when I got older I really liked some of the smaller, faster wrestlers like Eddie Gurerro, Chris Beniot, Ultimo Dragon, Chris Jericho, Bret Heart, etc.
Wrestlers that really, put on a show, not so much the beefy muscle guys, but the ones that were usually overlooked that could fly thru the air, and who really gave their all in their preformances
I don’t exactly remember how more then three-four years ago I got into MMA. I don’t really know how I came across it. I’ve also, always been a big fan of Martial Arts, and I never really had a platform to watch it on any type of regular basis, but when I started to get into the UFC and started to watch some of their earlier TV stuff on Spike I became hooked.
Wrestling was getting boring for me, with it’s extremely predictable shorelines and outcomes. With the collapse of WCW and ECW and its like, Vince MacMahon became more predictable with some of it’s writing. And for their own safety, some of the performers that I loved, were either, retired, dead or just weren’t the same when they keep more to a ground game
So when I got into MMA I immersed myself as much as I could in everything MMA related and I never really looked back
Although I do follow Pro-wrestling from time to time I find what’s going on very dull and flat footed.
I would never say that pro wrestling fighters are fake and not real athletes. I’d be a hypocrite if I did that. For some of the moves that they would put themselves thru are very entertaining and mind boggling in some cases.
But MMA is where my heart is now. It’s a natural progression for me. And although I don’t care for some of the behind the scene things that MMA (or if you will the UFC) seems to be going thru, that has gone in Pro-wrestling years before, I’m all for more wresting fans getting in the sport.
Anything to make it grow and be bigger then it already is. I’d rather Dana cater to more wrestling fans then the boxing ones. Wrestling fans will shell out money to see a PPV event, wrestling fans will go to live events and pay ridiculous prices for tickets (the average person) that’s something that a boxing fan for the most part will never do.
I don’t find Brock Lesnar as a whole, is the best representation as a cross-over wrestler as a whole only for the reason because he never wrestled for as long as he could, and personally I never cared for him as a wrestler anyway
But bring on the wrestling fans to MMA, I don’t think it’s a bad thing at all in the end
I don’t think it should matter where the fans come from. Provided there are eyes on MMA, and people enjoy it, I couldn’t care less about what else they’re fans of.
However, I will say that MMA does get a few fans from people sick of how bad pro wrestling has become. Back in the Attitude era, and the Monday Night Wars, it was a lot of fun to watch. Now you’ve got John Cena as your number one guy, and he doesn’t sell anything.
Really, I want to know why Luke gets to hot and bothered over it
Like it abused his mother or something, and now he’s got a vendetta against it.
Are they the same? No. Are the businesses similar? Absolutely. WWE is an artificial version of what the UFC is, it’s just that unlike every other knock-off in the world, this time the real-deal came after the fake one. Yes, wrestling is fake, but to get so irrationally angry at people making comparisons is pretty foolish. I mean, was the Tito vs Ken feud really any different than the angles that run week to week on WWE TV? Not really.
You know what's really fun? Not being a raving lunatic. Give it a try some time, you might just like it!
Live previews and reviews of all major fights! LightsOutRadio.com
I'm telling you why.
He was a BIIIG wrestling fan and probably got shit for it. Uncles teasing him about watching men in panties fake fight, all that shit. His friends laughing at him. So he finally had enough and said bye to wrestling all the while harboring a love for it. Then he found MMA and MMA was cool and to be cool in MMA you had to shit on pro wrestling. Well, he shat upon pro wrestling like no one had ever done before.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Here is my unofficial theory.
He specifically referenced the fact that he stopped watching pro wrestling once he discovered ‘girls titties’. What I think happened was he got himself a girlfriend and she came over one night while he was watching wrestling. She hated it and told him that he had to choose between her or pro wrestling. So he glanced at the TV, then glanced at her chest and said, “Yep, fuck this pro wrestling shit.”
If that actually happened then he made the right choice. That said, it doesn’t explain him shitting all over it today. I do think you are right in one regard. It’s not cool to say you love pro wrestling but it’s totally cool to say you love MMA. At least in larger social circles of snobby douche bags who like to pretend they are so much smarter and so much better than everyone else.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
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I'm gonna go with my theory
The odds of Luke (or any boy really) having a chick at his house at night while 13 are very slim. And as big of a fan as Luke was/is, he would’ve scheduled things around Monday Night RAW. Hahaha
But if you’re right, then yeah he made the right choice. However, I can tell you that wrestling events have some very hot women that attend them. I recently took my nephews to a show and there were hot un accompanied chicks just like there was back in 1999.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
13 is the age I lost my virginity so I don’t know what you’re talking about regarding any boy having a chick at the house around the time Raw comes on. Which is 8 around these parts. And yes, the WWE has been exploiting women for some time now. Who can forget Jerry Lawler basically blowing a load all over the place whenever Sable or Sunny came out?
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
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"13 is the age I lost my virginity"
Holy crap.
Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.
by SSreporters on Sep 7, 2010 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
sheeet
Trick Daddy popped his first nut in a bitch when he was like 10
"Frankie Edgar... beat the fuck out of Snooki, that's why she looks like Dio after Sabbath." --Joey Diaz
Most dudes I knew lost it during the day when parents weren't home
My parents (well mom) was around after work so that was a no-go. Had to cut school to pop the cherry.
I’m also gonnna guess that you’re younger than I am. Times have changed even in terms of 5 or 10 years.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I can go my whole life
and be incredibly happy not know when anyone posting here lost their virginity.
Yeah
Its not really required knowledge
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
it’s just annoying to hear pro wrestling pro wrestling pro wrestling pro wrestling every time chael sonnon or brock lesnar have an upcoming fight, do and interview, are rumored to have a fight, or think about fighting, or eat a burrito.
wow a grown professional athlete flipped off the crowd what a genious. another one said something about lance armstrong gave himself cancer damn hes smart… another one said something about horseshoes in peoples asses will our generation ever see another intellect of this calliber????
its to the point where professional fighters are criticized for being professional about their fighting. Why do people need artificial shit talk to get interested in a fight?
I don't know
but they do. The numbers show it time and again. Pro wrestling is all about working a crowd. That’s why it gets brought up so much.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
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According to the numbers
Yes, fans need artificial shit talk to get interested.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I feel the same way as Luke to some degree that there is some overuse of pro-wrestling terminology and mindset by some writers, and that it can be slightly annoying how everything is suddenly referred to as pro-wrestling when it’s just good old trash talking (which exists in many more arenas).
I don’t think his approach of badmouthing pro-wrestling fans is called for. But at the same time, if you’re an adult fan of something as silly as pro-wrestling, you ought to be able to handle some of the criticism and teasing you will receive for it. By all means, do your thing, but you should also be able to look at it and understand why most people will continue to look down on it. I feel this part is missing from some pro-wrestling fans, who will automatically go on a defensive diatribe as soon as someone says something negative about it. You like it, and that’s ok, but it’s still pretty damn silly and you should be able to recognize and accept that for what it is.
I hate pro wrestling and was never a fan of it
But I became an MMA fan starting with K-1, then slowly the UFC, but I watched a lot of PRIDE highlights on Fox Sports Net. I started watching the UFC during the Liddell/Tiger White days.
Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.
I don't give a damn about fabricated storylines, hence Pro Wrestling is not for me.
I paid attention to the fights in PRIDE, even the ones with freaking Giant Silva.
Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.
You really think
that every storyline you see in MMA is 100% authentic? Don’t be naive, sir. I don’t mean that in a derogatory way either. Remember Shamrock and Tito and what they said after their series of matches? Shamrock walked up to him and said, “Hey, we made a lot of money together.”
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
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Of course not. I don't like the fabricated storylines in MMA either.
The Sonnen nonsense irritated me to no end.
But Pro Wrestling has a lot of fictional storylines and I can’t take it.
Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.
You know what's funny
is that a lot of what fascinates pro wrestling fans is figuring out when a storyline is fake or a ‘work’ and when it is real or a ‘shoot’. A lot of storylines they use are taken from shit that’s actually happening in real life.
They did a program in 2005 with Edge-Lita and Matt Hardy based on the fact that Hardy was with Lita for like 8 years and she started screwing around on him with Edge who was married at the time. WWE caught wind of it and Hardy was out hurt at the time so they fired him. Well, he went nuts on the internet and put up all sorts of crazy shit before they said fuck it and brought him back and put the whole thing on TV so we could watch it play out.
The ensuing matches they had were fascinating and the whole ordeal was crazy to watch. Most of it was real.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
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I believe they call that a worked shoot.
by BurtBacharach on Sep 7, 2010 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, sir.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
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The difference is that the fight is real
It doesn’t really matter whether the story is real or not. It’s just there to whet our appetite.
I love some good fiction, but a good movie will satisfy far more than the shitty, simplistic storylines of pro wrestling. Even in Jackie Chan movies with bad plots, I can appreciate the intricate martial arts sequences. But I could never get pro wrestling, as it was the worst of both worlds. I’d watch an episode a couple times a year and get board, and only rarely did I see something that wowed me, like Ray Mysterio’s crazyass moves.
MMA build ups can be just as phony, but the suspense during the fight is unparalleled because it’s real. Shit talking just carries so much more weight.
"Even in Jackie Chan movies with bad plots"
whatever dude, you just couldn’t comprehend the heavy sociopolitical undertones of a move like Rumble in the Bronx.
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
Yeah i know i hate fake storylines like
fighters talking shit to hype up fights saying this and that about each other and their mother and then hugging after the fight
or two fighters hugging and sayin “We made each other a lot of money”
Or a rookie fighter trolling his way into a million bucks.
Glad that doens’t happen in MMA
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Fabricated results tend not to happen in MMA
Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.
TEND to not, and yet they have
So you’re saying that the outcome being determined (and the fights being real) is the only difference.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
When the whole story from start to finish is essentially scripted I don't care for it
All the backstage drama and prop throwing and smashing is just unappealing.
Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.
There's a difference between hyping a fight
and having T.V. writers come up with scripts for guys to follow week in and week out. Nobody is getting hit with a car, nobody is turning on their friends and hitting them with a steel chair in the middle of a fight, and nobody is throwing the UFC belt into a trash can at a Strikeforce event.
Like it’s been said, all this trash talking and hyping an event comes in every sport. Just because you may be a fan of talking up rivalries as it applies to other things even though in a lot of cases it may have original ties to pro wrestling, it doesn’t mean that you’re obligated to like pro wrestling as it applies there.
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
I stopped watching about a year ago
Loved pro wrestling, but after I started watching more MMA events I completely stopped watching wrestling.
"Too much awesome on my feet."-Brian Wilson
"Time for the laser show, boys!"- Aubrey Huff
Hey
I may have to move the Fantasy Football draft 3 hours back because I may not make 5 PM for Wednesday. Hope that’s okay with you.
Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.
That's fine
Probably better for Kris.
"Too much awesome on my feet."-Brian Wilson
"Time for the laser show, boys!"- Aubrey Huff
I e-mailed him about it already
I’m not sure I’ll get 12 teams so I’ve put it at 8 like I did last year. Draft order will be known tonight.
Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.
I don't watch anymore, MMA took that spot
but I can see why people do. It’s no different than any other fictional show you watch.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
Is there an opposite to the Rec button, as there's a ton of Black Lesnar posts I need to work on?
Flag seems too harsh.
by Snedds on Sep 7, 2010 5:48 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
A wrestling match is an art form. When done properly, by talented guys who know how to work a crowd, it’s a beautiful thing.
That’s spot on. When Shawn Michaels and Chris Jerricho are wrestling that’s a must watch because they could make wrestling a art form. Quite beautiful to watch.
"Too much awesome on my feet."-Brian Wilson
"Time for the laser show, boys!"- Aubrey Huff
Biggest market
for MMA is what? Biggest market for traffic to this site is what? Canada….and they take pro wrestling serious up there. It’s not a bad thing for pro wrestling and MMA to bleed into each other.
For the people who keep saying…“wow, who would ever watch pro wrestling”… go away. You aren’t adding anything to the discussion.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
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I would love to see GSP doing Pro Wrestling
That’s pure gold waiting to happen.
Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.
by SSreporters on Sep 7, 2010 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Chael Sonnen, is built for it
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
But GSP is built for utter hilarity.
I weel keek his azz.
Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.
i think wanting pro wrestling journalists to go away
is a fine thought for any mma fan. Now as to what other people who watch the sport like, who cares. but I understand why everyone is sick of prowrestling talk about mma
ITS BORING. ITS FUCKING BORING. IF YOU MAKE AN ANALOGY BETWEEN PRO-WRESTLING and MMA YOU ARE BORING
by bundt on Sep 7, 2010 6:00 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Pro Wrestlers Are of All Stripes
Pro wrestlers, for the most part, aren’t born to pro wrestlers, and they don’t grow up practicing pro wrestling. They are athletes coming from a wide variety of backgrounds, including martial arts, amateur wrestling, football, gymnastics, and just about anything else you can think of. These athletes followed the money, and in some cases their unique passions (for fighting, drama, whatever).
There’s now an oppurtunity for these athletes to make money in a legitimate sport. Why would anyone hold their transitioning to MMA against them? Further, how are their “antics” in ANY WAY unique to pro wrestling? Pro wrestling simply exaggerates typical sports behavior, from Dennis Rodman’s hair to John Mcenroe’s shouting matches to Tiger Woods’ infidelities. It legitimizes half of what we love about any celebrity-driven endeavor.
I find it somewhat amusing that this many people have their panties in a bunch over Luke’s opinion on pro wrestling.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore Roosevelt
His opinions on the subject are pretty polarizing
Especially considering many of the readers here used to follow or still follow wrestling…
It would be like if Luke came on here and insulted everyone who enjoyed tennis. Its his opinion, but its polarizing and unprofessional. The only difference is, I bet more BE readers watch wrestling (or once did) than watch tennis.
I find it more than somewhat amusing that someone who will argue with a tree about what color the sky is (you) finds ANY BE panty-bunching somewhat amusing.
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
Proud BElitest.
The outrage from the folks here on this subject just strikes me as funny for some reason. From the reaction, you’d swear that Luke made insulting comments about Jews or Blacks. The man doesn’t like pro wrestling and thinks it’s a joke. So? Who cares what Luke Thomas thinks about pro wrestling? I go to Luke to hear his thoughts on MMA. If I want to hear about pro wrestling, I’ll go to someone who covers pro wrestling. I don’t ask my plumber what he thinks about my internet connection.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore Roosevelt
I find it funny that Luke's panties are in a bunch
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions
It sounds like your panties are in a bunch
After being sufficiently primed by Jordan Breen, Luke simply went on a fairly short rant about the silliness of adult pro wrestling fans who equate everything to WWE. He was answering a question. You have been arguing about this on a message board for at least two hours today.
by Anton Chigurh on Sep 7, 2010 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
The issue actually goes back further than that
and relate to Luke’s original rant against pro wrestling in some random thread where his comments where much harsher at the time.
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
Thank you
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions
This has nothing to do with anything
but I approve of your user name.
"You hear people say, 'You're the greatest,' and all this stuff. It's BS. It's fake, it's all fake. You've just got to keep training as hard as you can. The only thing real is the fight, everything else is fake." - BJ Penn
by crazybones on Sep 7, 2010 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Semper Fi'
WatchKalibRun.com
Pain don't hurt...
by RolloTomasi on Sep 7, 2010 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
One of my all time favorite movies, and one of the greatest movie villians ever.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore Roosevelt
This has shit to do with the Jordan Breen show
Luke’s been ranting like this on BE for weeks ever since before the Sonnen fight because people dared to equate that build to pro wrestling (which it was).
Luke would have a point if people tied most stuff to pro wrestling, which they don’t. He could even have his point, but he chose to make his point and denigrate people at the same time. It’s funny because MMA fans get their panties in a twist when someone makes fun of MMA fighters for sitting in between people’s legs for minutes at a time. I bet the next time someone calls MMA fans “gay” or retarded for liking MMA, the same people championing Luke will be right there acting upset.
Don’t worry about what I do and why I do it. Money was being made and thus, it doesn’t matter how I choose to spend my time.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I haven’t watched pro wrestling since the late 80’s and I pretty much regard it as ludicrous and beneath my contempt:) I don’t really like superheroes much, for that matter. Just not my thing. But the same wrestling fans love football and other major sports, and mix the two sets of terminology all the time, in subtle and not so subtle ways. I realize that in appearance, MMA and pro wrestling have far more in common than other sports. Still, there aren’t really any substantial “real” similarities, just appearances. And the hyping of prize fights has always had pro wrestling level, cartoonish hyperbole, as do most of the major sports. So I don’t worry about this in the slightest. It seems a bit overly sensitive to even care about this much. We’re fans of the greatest athletic/combat competition EVAH! Everything is gonna be alright.
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Sep 7, 2010 6:24 PM EDT reply actions
106.7
Hey Luke – will you be posting the audio frm you sunday radio broadcast on bloodyelbow. You did it last week and it was very convenient and interesting.
Soap opera....
Girls watch Y&R, boys watch WWE…..nuff said
My friends in grade school were into wrestling...
…I tried watching once during a slumber party with them, only to be completely bored. I wanted actual fighting, not bad theater.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift
by Scott C. Broussard on Sep 7, 2010 6:56 PM EDT reply actions
I generally have to agree with Luke's sentiment (though no his disdain)
The problem with such overlap in American Pro-Wrestling (Japanese is a whole other animal) and MMA is that MMA is actually trying to pass itself off as sport, which it is. Wrestling is a combination of crappy soap operas, thin characters (both since the demise of the Attitude era) and acrobatics/play fighting more akin to circus or theater. It can be incredible to watch at its apex (pre-psychotic Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Kurt Angle when I last watched), but ultimately thats all it is – theater. You can’t build a credible sport from the backdrop of something that is farcical and not mainstream to begin with. Just look at the XFL. I know the XFL had to deal with the NFL, but it couldn’t even rise to the level of something like the AFL or CFL, due in no small part to the sentiment of “Hey, isn’t this from the pro-wrestling dude? What bullsh*t.”
If you want to build the credibility of a sport by adding some notoriety through other sports, you do it with A) actual sports (not athletic theatrics) and B) something actually mainstream. Thats why I think they were so quick to get borderline-NFL guys in TUF, people know these guys as serious, real athletes (sorry, amateur wrestling is not mainstream enough for people to give a crap). By latching on to pro wrestling stigmas and practices, you set yourself up as a niche sport by exploiting a niche fanbase and industry. At best you move laterally, at worst you’ve taken a step back and entrenched yourself as the successor to a niche market.
Is the UFC trying to present itself as a sport?
I don’t think so. Look at what’s promoted and what isn’t.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions
But this is a real sport with real athletes.
That’s what the sport is all about—two guys at their weight class, Jens Pulver and Urijah Faber, who are the best in the world.
In the next 10 years, MMA will be the biggest sport on the planet.
~ Dana White to ESPN the Magazine’s Ryan Hockensmith
http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3427527
Interview is about a year old, but I was on ESPN so it was the quickest thing to find.
They are trying to present it as a sport, but the pro wrestling tactics made easy cash and, more importantly, set up a system where nobody really knows or cares about the fighters much but do know and love Dana White. Its also why they will never grown much larger under the leadership of White – people ultimately don’t watch the NFL because of Roger Goodell, they watch b/c they connect with and love and cheer for the guys on the field. If they don’t know those guys, they don’t care for the most part. Look at the AFL/XFL. Same with boxing and other individualistic sports.
They use the word "sport", so does the WWE sometimes
The UFC promotes excitement and not the sporting aspect of MMA. The fans want excitement and not the sporting aspects of MMA.
MMA is Entertaining sports, the opposite of sports entertainment. They’ve long turned down a road that is looking at short money gains rather than longer term acceptance. Maybe the UFC is happy with being one of the bigger niche sports like NASCAR and the X-games.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 8, 2010 5:45 AM EDT up reply actions
I love how everyone thinks Pro-Wrestling is like Sports Entertainment
When it clearly isn’t.
"Respond intelligently even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu
by RoyalB on Sep 7, 2010 7:31 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Nobody is saying they don't want the fans
It’s just you expect a little bit more from the people who are actually writing about the sport.
It’s annoying when the hardcore pro wrestling fans who are now MMA writers are shoving all the pro wrestling terminology down our throats, and trying to fit all of the MMA happenings into a pro wrestling box.
The analogy at the end is actually very telling….if I was writing a Football blog and I kept referring to everything by baseball terms, I’d look like an idiot. “Oh the Saints were on the 4th out and they managed to throw a big home run pass!”
People say Home run pass all the time.
Saying the “4th out” is just using bad terminology.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions
You're ignoring my point
If I were to write about another sport using the entire terminology from another sport, like you and a few others do with MMA using pro wrestling terms, I’d look like a complete jackass.
WHo is writing about MMA using the entire terminology?
No one I’ve read, not even Meltzer. All I hear are “heel”, “face”, and “promo”. And maybe “over”. I don’t hear anything else.
I certainly don’t write about MMA using pro wrestling terms besides those above minus one piece I wrote about Chael putting Anderson over. What other things did I write that used wrestling teminology?
And please don’t say “Well I’m not going to search through your stuff”.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
One comment from yesterday that I just stumbled upon. No I wasn't looking, I just saw it and it reminded me of this.
I love PRIDE a lot, really I do
But that’s primarily because I was a big pro wrestling fan. And that’s all PRIDE was was pro wrestling with mostly real fights. I know that’s hard for a lot of fanboys to drip because they like to turn their nose up at wrestling, but PRIDE was basically a wrestling campany.
If you liked PRIDE, you liked pro wrestling.
Not exactly what you’re talking about but somebody mentions PRIDE fanboyism and you write a paragraph about pro wrestling and how MMA fans are snobby. It’s weak shit.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I just wrote that. Literally
First of all, it was an article ABOUT pro wrestling. It’s not like I pulled pro wrestling from my ass. Second, that’s not writing in pro wrestling terms. That’s not bringing pro wrestling where it doesn’t belong. PRIDE was pro wrestling and the Japanese easily admit that. It was pro wrestling without scripts. The creators of it freely admit that. Why don’t fans?
MMA fans are snobs. And they have no reason to be. They are the EXACT same as wrestling fans, see my comment in my fanpost.
So I still await these articles.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 8, 2010 5:58 AM EDT up reply actions
There are two kinds of sports fans:
The kind that watch quietly, observing and analyzing as judiciously as possible. They aren’t even really fans in the true sense of the word, because they attempt to be as objective as possible. This would seem to be the mindset of any good sports journalist. (Bill Simmons notwithstanding)
Then there are the kind who scream at the television, who refuse to educate themselves beyond what they learned from their dads, who think they have all the answers because they played “xyz” in grade school and generally think all professional athletes underperform and are overpaid to do so. This would seem to be the mindset of most “regular joe” sports fans.
How does this apply to MMA and Wrestling??
Wrestling appeals greatly to the second group. They are in it for the entertainment. They aren’t in it because they enjoy the intricacies of a triangle or a cut kick. They are in it because they like to scream when someone gets knocked out. The story lines in wrestling are pretty basic stuff. This guy is evil, this guy is good. They are easy to follow and they don’t require much thinking. If you didn’t have story lines to entice these people, all you would have is two guys jumping in the ring trying to rip each others heads off. And that just wouldn’t be enough.
That's not fair at all
I’m both those fans. I think a LOT of people on here are both those fans.
"You hear people say, 'You're the greatest,' and all this stuff. It's BS. It's fake, it's all fake. You've just got to keep training as hard as you can. The only thing real is the fight, everything else is fake." - BJ Penn
There is a ton of gray area in between your two groups of sports fans, not to mention the “Fantasy Owners” groups, which is probably bigger than either of those two groups combined.
Additionally, I would venture to guess people watch Stone Cold stun Vince McMahon for far more different reasons then when they yell at Eli Manning through the TV for throwing 4 INTs. They scream at that TV because something really is on the line for them. That isn’t there with wrestling. Pro wrestlers get popular more in the way Spider-man or Superman do, as archetypal fictional characters. Sports become more like a national identity to people (hence the World Cup).
A wrestling match is an art form. When done properly, by talented guys who know how to work a crowd, it’s a beautiful thing.
"The men who get on best with women are those that get on best without them" Lee Christmas
Also when not done properly
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
Corey Hill gif, please.
I want Kim Winslow or Tan Dan to ref Tito Ortiz' next loss.
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Sep 7, 2010 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Kurt Angle wouldn’t last long in MMA with that chin. The kick didn’t even connect, AND he had a chair as a shield! GEEZ!!!
I want Kim Winslow or Tan Dan to ref Tito Ortiz' next loss.
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Sep 7, 2010 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions
That's what I think too.
He has to be working people
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I can see it as comparable to Austin during his feud with Bret Hart: Face to most of his audience (MMA fans = USA), heel to a smaller subset (pro wrestling fans = Canadians). Luke even has the facial hair going for him.
Sergio Non,
MMA writer, USA TODAY
http://mma.usatoday.com
Man, I was looking for the storyline and you nailed it
Thomas 3:16 says I just trolled your ass
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
it's the fight business
boxing, MMA, pro wrestling, kickboxing, sumo…
there are a finite number of ways to promote a battle of strength, technique, and will between men.
the wrestling promoters have been doing it the longest, with an arguably more difficult product to sell, so we use their terms.
it’s not that MMA is “real” pro-wrestling – it’s that all kinds of fights are promoted the same way. to say otherwise is disingenuous or uninformed. so does luke thomas sound like a used car salesman to anyone else when he cuts pro wrestling promos on sherdog radio?
by kellly on Sep 7, 2010 10:42 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
yea anyone who thinks that the UFC is "real pro wrestling" is a fool
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 7, 2010 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions
What's getting annoying...
As a life long wrestling fan, and a MMA fan since 2000, is seeing all these posts of sheer ignorance claiming Pro-Wrestling is just “soap opera” “fake” “unrealistic” and “Silly” when they either haven’t ever sat down and attempted to appreciate it, haven’t seen it in ten + years, or have never even attempted to broaden their horizon and educate themselves on what Pro-Wrestling actually IS.
It’d be like me being a newbie to MMA and going around claiming Sakuraba isn’t one of the greatest fighters of all time because he’s been beaten so often as of late. Pretty damn ignorant, isn’t it? You’d be screaming at me to “educate” myself wouldn’t you? Same deal to me.
It’s called Youtube people. You can find classic, international, and independent wrestling at the drop of a hat. If you think wrestling is all “Soap Opera Bullshit” go find some some UWF-I or U-STYLE. You wanna see some Flippitydos? Find DRAGON GATE. It’s all there. All you have to do is actually try. I actually linked to a youtube user last time I posted on this issue. I see not many took me up on that. It’s much easier to bash something ignorantly then actually go out of your way and attempt to be better informed.
This is a MMA site though, not a pro-wrestling one. You’re just going to have to deal with it, most of us are not really interested in “educating” ourselves further on pro-wrestling. Thanks but no thanks!
by Horselover Fat on Sep 8, 2010 5:51 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The funny thing is
that if a football or boxing fan started talking shit about MMA being gay cause grown men lay in between each other’s legs and we’re all “retards” for watching, everyone in this thread would be upset.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 8, 2010 6:00 AM EDT up reply actions
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