Baptist Minister says UFC fans shall burn in the fiery pits of Hell
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 5, 2010 1:00 PM EDT
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PrintA Baptist minister named Adam Groza recently wrote a column about MMA, the UFC and how it "should" be viewed by Christians:
Some pretty heavy stuff there. Especially when the next verse of Psalm says "On the wicked he will rain fiery coals and burning sulfur; a scorching wind will be their lot". I mean I enjoy a nice BBQ every now and again, but I don't want to be in the pit. Surely the Lord can find it in his heart to love those that want to see a nice KO or a submission. It's not like Frankie Edgar is killing Brock Lesnar with a slingshot.How should we as Baptists regard the growing popularity of Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) and the Ultimate Fighting Championship (UFC)? Simply put, we should hate it.
Psalm 11:5 says, "The LORD examines the righteous and the wicked. He hates the lover of violence." This is a hard verse for at least two reasons. First, it does not say that God simply hates violence, but rather, that God hates those who love violence. Second, it confronts our culture's lust for violence, a lust which many Christians indulge rather than reject.
He then goes on to describe the UFC as some sort of mix of sex and violence with half-naked "Octagon girls" walking around while barbarians fight in the cage.
Fighters wear minimally padded gloves which lead to more blood, and those bloody images are then used to market the sport. Those who pay to see the fights also pay to see "octagon girls," scantily clad eye-candy between bouts. MMA and UFC are far from a harmless sport. They are a sinful amalgam of blood lust and female objectification that reflects our cultures growing desensitization to the inherent value of human life.
UFC and MMA amounts to violence porn, a term which has been applied to movies with wanton violence such as "SAW," where violence is not part of the plot, it is the attraction. Violence for violence's sake, as opposed to instrumental or redeeming violence, desensitizes the viewer to the graphic horror of watching two people pummel each other for the sake of entertainment. UFC and MMA offer exactly the kind of violence condemned in Psalm 11:5. Ezekiel 7:23 decries, "the city is full of violence." Why are Christians supporting violence in the city?
Oh noes. He's got us. MMA is violent. Let me guess what should happen. I should save my 50 bucks that I would spend on PPV and send it in for repentance? Right? Let's call this what it is, a money grab. An attention grab. The UFC and MMA is at its apex right now and this guy sees a chance to get his name out there.
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Let’s call this what it is, a money grab. An attention grab. The UFC and MMA is at its apex right now and this guy sees a chance to get his name out there.
So why help him out? You’re preaching to the choir.
by Chris Nelson on Sep 5, 2010 1:16 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Just something I thought was interesting
Maybe some Christians can weigh in
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 5, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Well I'm Christian.
And frankly, I’m a little tired of all of these preachers who act like I’m not man enough to determine, for myself, from my own religious convictions, what’s right and what’s wrong.
by Emoney on Sep 5, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Agreed....
People twist scripture to fit their own agenda.
by SmittytheCutman on Sep 6, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
And that, my friend, is the only real purpose of any and all organized religion.
But i digress, to continue this conversation would lead into very emotionally charged waters and this is probably not the time or place.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein"
- Goonisis
Yeah, I’m just a little wary since we try to stay away from religious and political discussion on here. It rarely ends well.
You're right
I’m not a “Bible Scholar”, I was mainly looking for texts that might give more enlightenment.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 5, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve read the Christian bible a few times but I’m no scholar of the material either. You can find verse to support almost any argument. Even Jesus got a little violent with the money changers. You can also learn how to deal with witches.
you don't need to be a biblical scholar to understand the bible
we can read it and have our own interpretation of it, which is why there are so many Christian denominations, it’s far from a perfect book.
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
No... but it's a "good" book :)
The Bible was not dictated by Jesus. It was written by many many people, some living long after Jesus. It has also gone through many translations and is unlikely to be a faithful rendition of what was originally put down in Hebrew/Aramaic/other ancient tongues.
I am not Christian. I see the Bible as a guide to encourage people to be good people, rather than gospel truth. It was designed, like other religious rules during an era when those guidelines were more relevant than they are today. Pure unadulterated violence on the street? Bad for society. But violence, controlled and distilled into entertainment and sport? If done right, I don’t see why any reasonable person would have a problem with it. He might as well rail against Ice Hockey or various forms of Football (Soccer seems to incite more violence among its fans than MMA does, IMHO)
I'm sorry but
if read, the bible is hardly a guide to encourage people to be good per se, there are more atrocity there (commended by God) than any atrocities that have happened during war times in recent history.
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
I am a Christian. The problem with the book – it has been not just translated, but edited by priests and monks through the centuries. Scholars note sections that are likely altered – it is blatant in places, where the tone of a paragraph does not match the rest of the segment.
If you reduce the religion down to be forgiving, ask for forgiveness, and take care of the people around you, then it is a lot less controversial. There is plenty of evidence that Jesus lived, and credible evidence the he preached the basics I just listed, so I don’t think you can go wrong following those. On the other hand, getting some guy to tell you how to think and live has a lot of risk – you can’t delegate moral responsibility.
"I'd love to be a Cheick Kongo looking brother that could actually move and do a lot of funky stuff - Jiu Jitsu, takedowns, kicks and stuff." - Jon Jones.
"This is the internet: you either have soul-stopping power or you’re a pillow-fisted pansy. There is no middle ground." - woomikee
You can be all those attributes you listed without needing to follow a particular religion. My only problem with your argument is that if the bible was in fact altered and mistranslated over time, then you can’t possibly trust any of it as being the word of God, it has been compromised. Christianity is based on the bible, and if the bible is compromised, then I don’t see the basis to be a Christian if I was to be intellectually honest with myself. There is no way to tell what is accurate, and what isn’t to the original scriptures (not to mention that there are a lot of scriptures left out of the bible, and contradictory to other books in the bible).
To your second point about Jesus, there has not been any evidence to my knowledge that he has in fact lived. Please show me any historical documents (the bible isn’t one) that mentions him, there are historical Roman documents that goes back before Jesus, you’d think he would have been mentioned by at least one Roman historian. On a second note, even if it’s true that Jesus lived, it doesn’t make him divine, it would only prove that he actually lived.
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
lots of scholars and historians will agree that there was a guy named jesus, from nazereth, around that time, who was crucified by pontius pilate.
there are several 1st and 2nd century non-christian writers who wrote about the christians and the man they worshiped. there is still some debate, but lots of people agree that at least Jesus and John the Baptist were real people.
this is one area I have not researched enough
so I won’t try to dispute it.
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
i mean, I learned about it in school a while ago (admittedly, catholic school) but we spent time in religion classes reading non-christian books and spending some time studying the history of that time period. i was trying to come up with a good link to post, but couldn’t really.
Here is a wiki page to read if you feel like it, with links at the bottom to separate pages arguing that he lived and that he is a myth. It seems it’s more of a debate than i remember in school (which makes sense) but there is evidence to him actually being a person. It’s not worth getting into a debate over everything he did or that people claimed he did, but I’m comfortable with the fact that there was a guy named jesus and he went around telling people not to be assholes.
I'll check it out!
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
Not just a little violent, bro
John 2:13-16"The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple he found people selling cattle, sheep, and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. Making a whip of cords, he drove all of them out of the temple, both the sheep and the cattle. He also poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. He told those who were selling the doves, “Take these things out of here! Stop making my Father’s house a marketplace!”
He basically whipped the hell out of them.
But realistically, as has been said before, the bible can be used to support any argument, especially when you get into the area of taking out of context quotes as your evidence.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Sep 6, 2010 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
The basic english translation would be “The Lord puts the upright and the sinner to the test, but he has hate in his soul for the lover of violent acts.” from bible.cc
A couple interesting commentaries from www.bible.cc.
“And him that loveth violence – Referring particularly here to those who were engaged in persecuting him who was the author of this psalm. They were contemplating acts of violence toward him Psalm 11:2; he says that all such persons were the objects of the divine displeasure, and would be appropriately punished.”
“the wicked, and him that loveth violence, his soul hateth; that is, such who live in a course of sin and wickedness, and who not only do injury to the persons, characters, and properties of men, but love it, and delight therein, and also take pleasure in them that do the same:”
Basically, this verse is the author of psalms directly addressing specific people who are his enemies in the story. Not only that, but I don’t believe “lovers of violence” in context would refer to enjoying sport fighting at all because we aren’t delighting in the malicious destruction of innocent men but fierce competition by willing participants.
As a Catholic, I would say the reverend needs to study up a bit on his history of Christianity. Last I checked, some of the bloodiest wars in history have been waged in the name of Christianity, complete with elite troops trained and commanded by the clergy (Knights Templar being but one example). Hell, even today the Vatican’s Swiss Guard are renowned for their training and professionalism, a large part of which is combat training.
Spare me the malarkey about religion being non-violent.
Also, I’d like to point out that I am not bashing the church for embracing violence. It’s a violent world. While I certainly don’t condone the actions of the Medieval church (Crusades, Inquisition), sometimes you have to be prepared to meet violence with violence. Pointing to ancient scriptures and trying to extrapolate their meaning to modern society is naive at best, disingenuous at worst.
The reverend is an educated man. He should know better … and probably does.
As a devout Christian I would say this is rubbish. I’m mobile & haven’t the time or inclination to address this scripturally at the moment, but in the unlikely event it becomes more widely dissemenated I will.
Suffice to say, without taking things out of context there are no scriptures I’m aware of that would prohibit legally sanctioned violence involved in sport, so long as all are involved of their own free will.
The world of religion is full of false teachings, and at the risk of starting a genuine shit-storm, I’d defy anyone (sig bet?) to show me scripturally where the bible forbids drinking alcohol for the general (i.e. non-Levite) population (as opposed to drunkeness) or gambling, both of which are mainstay topics for certain religeous and pseudo-religious types…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 5, 2010 3:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Steve4192
The reply (“rubbish” etc) was meant for the article itself, not your comment I replied under.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 5, 2010 4:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
so much to respond with here
but i’ll leave in at the bible= aesop’s fables, and theres a lot of contradicting bs so i’m sure you can find arguments for both sides in it
I’ve got big walnuts. Gorilla nuts.
by Austin Martin on Sep 5, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Not much in the way of true contradictions,
But when you consider the manner it has been passed down over the centuries it should not be surprising if there are slight inconsistencies along different lines of translation and transcription…only the original can be truly considered inspired and infallable.
Having said that, it is true that if you take things out of context you can find arguements for both sides of this or almost anything else.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 5, 2010 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions
The Bible contains a plethora of internal contradictions – for starters, there are two different accounts of creation in Genesis, each with a different order. Which came first – man or plants? The stories have different answers. It is logically impossible for the Bible to be infallible. I won’t continue the religion talk here, but email me if you want (check my profile). I’m always good for a debate over this.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift
by Scott C. Broussard on Sep 5, 2010 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I will, I too enjoy intelligent discussion on the topic.
For starters, there are so many false teachings within the various churches and denominations. The contention that any version of today’s bible is 100% the inspired word of God and thus infallible is simply not supported by reality.
You might (or might not) be surprised to learn how many long time christians believe Jesus and His disciples spoke Elizabethan english…my own mother-in-law (a baptist) in a “debate” about versions and translations of the bible told me (about the King Jimmy version’s language for today’s use) “if it was good enough for the apostle paul, it is good enough for me.” I literally laughed out loud…my wife (who was raised baptist) later told me this was a not-uncommonly held belief…
The only versions of Scripture I consider infallable are the true original versions of the original texts. Everything after that is subject to human error. Having said that, the overall themes and lesons are intact, even if various minutia hasn’t survived humanity over the millenia.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 5, 2010 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I read a few pages of the bible
had a good laugh and went about living in the real world.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
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by Geno Mrosko on Sep 5, 2010 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions 10 recs
That's rude, bro
I’m not religious either, but it’s dismissive and condescending to tell people their beliefs are fantastical/ ridiculous.
Realistically, neither side has anymore proof/ supporting evidence to make a stronger argument than the other in regards to the existence of god/ afterlife/ intelligent creator/ etc, so claiming anything definitively on either side is pompous, at least IMO.
It all has to do with nature/ nurture, people are predisposed to being more or less receptive to things like religion, and depending on your upbringing, it can either take or not take. I tend to think that i’m a double whammy of being skeptical and raised without religion, but IDK.
Let’s try to keep it civil, is all i’m saying I guess.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Sep 6, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
For every person like him, I have but one honest recommendation.
Pick up a copy of Resistance, Rebellion, and Death. It’s a collection of letters, articles, and speeches by Camus. Read the speech given at Dominican Monestary of Latour-Maubourg. It’s a brilliant piece of non-believer literature that should be read by everybody. A select quote:
I shall never start from the supposition that Christian truth is illusory, but merely from the fact that I could never accept it…
I’ve never found a better way to clearly illustrate a respectful stance of non-belief.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Sep 6, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not religious either, but it’s dismissive and condescending to tell people their beliefs are fantastical/ ridiculous.
How so? If someone were to tell you that they believe in ghosts, would you respect their beliefs and not dismiss them by being ridiculous? (in case you believe in ghosts, change that to something else, such as leprecons or Santa Claus).
Realistically, neither side has anymore proof/ supporting evidence to make a stronger argument than the other in regards to the existence of god/ afterlife/ intelligent creator/ etc,
this is not logically sound. The only side that needs to furnace proof is the side that makes a claim (in this case theism). The side that does not make a claim does not (nor cannot) furnace proof. I’ll use the ghost analagy again, someone making the claim that ghosts exist needs to furnace proof that they do before any sane person were to believe their claim. We cannot however furnace proof that they don’t exist…
so claiming anything definitively on either side is pompous, at least IMO.
I do agree with this 100% though, we cannot claim that God(s) definitively does not exist, but we should also cannot claim 100% that ghosts definitively don’t exist either, but we don’t need to believe that they do until proven otherwise.
It all has to do with nature/ nurture, people are predisposed to being more or less receptive to things like religion, and depending on your upbringing, it can either take or not take. I tend to think that i’m a double whammy of being skeptical and raised without religion, but IDK.
and I was raised very religious (my father was a pastor), and I turned out atheist…
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
But is it fair to mock others with faith, saying their beliefs are laughable and that they have no firm grasp of the real world?
There are things that will never, never be explained. But to deride those who find comfort, guidance, and wisdom through faith in something you may not personally believe in, that’s simply unjustifiable. Far more brilliant minds than yours or mine have held faith in a “higher being”, so I find the categorical dismisal of “believers” as a group of hokey fools, to use a turn of phrase, laughable itself.
I have no qualms with those who don’t share my faith. And, I understand the frustration of those who feel religion is being thrust upon them. But there is a basic human respect that I think all denominations, as well as the non-believers, should adhere to, and this supercedes the mocking tones so often taken up by men on either side of the issue.
"I talked about retirement a little bit, but told them I'd be the same ol' grumpy, pissed off guy." --Bobby Cox
I personally think it is. First, let me say that when commenting on BE I try to limit myself from saying anything negative or mocking a religion (this is out of respect to the rules of the site, not out of respect for the religious though), I do talk about it when it’s on threads such as this one. The thing that religious people need to understand is that many people don’t have respect for the way they think, to us, it’s about as ridiculous as thinking there are ghosts in the world. I know this may sound harsh, but let’s be honest here, if someone were to come on BE one day and write a comment implying that there are leprecons in the world, they would be ridiculed (by the faithful as well) for believing such nonsense. To us, that is how we view religion, as being non-sense. Again, this may be harsh to hear for some, and I understand that, and for that I do respect the rules of the site in other topics as I know it can start a storm, but in my personal life I do not follow this rule.
Far more brilliant minds than yours or mine have held faith in a "higher being", so I find the categorical dismissal of "believers" as a group of hokey fools, to use a turn of phrase, laughable itself.
this is true, and far more brilliant minds also dismiss the idea of a God. We cannot use this example as a means to believe/disbelieve a claim, we can only use these exceptional individuals to accept whatever it is that they find in their respected ‘fields’ of science, anything other than their respected field is only their personal opinions and bias. We also have brilliant minds that believe in different types of God(s) as well. This is not a very good example IMO. I personally do not believe/disbelieve claims only because I was influenced by someone ‘smarter’ than me, but because I truly don’t believe in it myself. To show how silly this is, Hitler was very smart, the guy was an evil genius, but because he may have been smarter than me doesn’t mean I have to agree with his faith or world view…
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
What the hell is so ridiculous about ghosts?
That stuffs for sure authentic homey, we got an old abandoned asylum out here that’s haunted as SHIT!
As far as all this religion talk goes, I’m just gonna stay outta this one.
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
hey man, we hear footsteps in my house every now and then upstairs when there is no one there, so I may be in denial with the ghost thing :p
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
Its pretty much a fact they exist.
How do you explain this picture of Whoopi Goldberg?
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 6, 2010 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions
My point with that is that there is often a categorical dismissal of the faithful as some sort of uneducated herd of the gullible. That simply isn’t true. There are those types of people in every spectrum, from political beliefs to fans of sports.
I’m not suggesting that you were making that point, I was just trying to preemptively strike at the notion.
But can you, someone who views religion as non-sense (as is well within your right and I have no criticism of you for it… I mean, you’re one of the nicest posters on BE), also understand that there are people who have taken belief in God with a high-reasoning, intellectually adroit mind? Although there are always fools yelling from the bully pulpit, some of us are smart ;-)
"I talked about retirement a little bit, but told them I'd be the same ol' grumpy, pissed off guy." --Bobby Cox
I appreciate the sentiment and I agree 100% that most people that have faith are not gullible, in fact I’d argue that most are very educated and smart. It’s a small portion of those that are very gullible and ignorant. My only beef is with people that usually take the bible in a literal sense, and usually the educated men and women of faith will take it figuratively. Having said that, even though they may be very smart, and most of them smarter than myself (much smarter, I don’t want to sound as if I think I’m a genius, I’m not), cannot take their belief in God with high reasoning, because for faith itself, reason does not apply. I’m not trying to take a jab at the faithful for having faith though, but most of the educated ones will affirm that their beliefs are due to faith only and not reasoning, so I’m just echoing their sentiments because they are definitely correct in that regard :p
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
Very fair
/high five
"I talked about retirement a little bit, but told them I'd be the same ol' grumpy, pissed off guy." --Bobby Cox
right back at ya
:p
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
I get your point.
The thing I’ve never been able to get over is that, looking at and examining the universe, as unreasonable as it is to believe there is a creator, it seems more unreasonable (to me) to conclude that there isn’t one.
Interesting that this comes up this weekend. I just stumbled onto Greg Graffin the lead singer of Bad Religion. I’ve heard their music forever but never looked into who he was. He’s a professor at UCLA with a Phd in zoology. He was awarded Harvard Secular Society’s “Outstanding Lifetime Achievement Award in Cultural Humanism”. Calls himself a “Naturalist” as opposed to an Athiest. Very articulate interesting guy.
by jrobb20 on Sep 7, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
also, Bad Religion is a pretty solid band
"I talked about retirement a little bit, but told them I'd be the same ol' grumpy, pissed off guy." --Bobby Cox
by Anthony Pace on Sep 7, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
We have a very limited understanding of the universe, science is not developed well enough to understand what came before the Big Bang, this does not mean we will never understand it however. Saying "I don’t know" to a question is far better than saying "God did it", or that "someone" did it. Way back in our civilization, we did not understand why there were thunders, the natives at the time decided to say there was a God for thunders and that’s why we have thunders… Again, we had no knowledge as to understand why there were thunders at the time, but giving it a cause without reason behind it should not be on the table. The universe was one something that took me years to get over it as I myself had trouble accepting a universe without a God (this is after I lost my faith but wasn’t an atheist just yet). But using Occam’s Razor, it only became a matter of time to get rid of my deistic description for the beginning of the universe.
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
Occam’s Razor
interesting. Hadn’t heard that idea articulated that way. Thanks for sharing that.
I can’t shake, nor am I trying, I just try to go where things lead, that there’s more to our existence than what can be placed in a test tube and examined. I do think that intelligence or intent can be observed. There are very few things that you can look at and know 100% they had a creator, but, logic dictates that you conclude that. I used the example of Mt. Rushmore below. (I’m sure it comes off as too cutesy but I don’t mean it that way).
Interesting that you say that was your experience also. I really appreciate the way this whole thread has been conducted. I love these type of conversations. It’s very difficult to find people willing to have them without their personal beliefs being challenged to the point they get afraid, yell and run away. It’s far more important to question fully than blindly follow.
yeah
it took me years to accept my atheism, being from a very religious family and all. I felt ashamed for a long time, and my shame really came from my indoctrination, going to church every Saturday throughout my childhood until my late teens, and being told what to think and not how to think.
I don’t really like the “creator” analogy you gave though, you can recognize that Mt. Rushmore was “created” and not naturally formed because you can see well defined faces, not just one but 4 besides each other. You have, I presume, seen sculptures before that you know were created by artists, and you can make the case that this was as well. Our brains are equipped to do that, and if you ever come across a bike you’ll feel the same way, cars, airplanes, houses, etc.
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
I get that...
and it may seem trite, but, it does demonstrate, to me at least, that one can look at something, observe a design, assume a creator and it not be a completely unreasonable thought. Not saying that magically proves God as defined by any of the various religions. Just that there are scenarios where that particular train of thought would not be deemed unreasonable by most everyone. Where one goes from there with it, I have no idea.
I agree that our scientific observations have lead to huge new understandings of how things work. And while people hypothesized that those discoveries would push God from daily life, as we would understand how everything works and no longer need God, as we discover more and are able to dig deeper we seem to find layer after layer of more complexity. Which, to me, the more complex we find things and the more apparent design we observe the more it points to a designer.
Please know I’m not trying to persuade you of anything. Merely stating how I see things. Thanks again.
no worries
I’m also not trying to change people’s mind, just stating my opinion as well.
But I’d argue, that things are getting less complex and not more complex. The complexity you’re speaking of I think comes to the amount of knowledge we have gained in the past few centuries regarding the world around us, but technically we can see that things evolved from less complex things and gradually becomes more complex with time. This is true to the universe itself and life. I’d also argue that putting an answer for a God would actually be more complex than it being made by a natural force (this is regarding the universe). A God that created the universe, has the knowledge for everything that will happen within that universe until the end of time, would have to be a very complex being. A universe that started from a singularity and expended is not complex, it’s a very simple theory though.
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
“But there is a basic human respect that I think all denominations, as well as the non-believers, should adhere to…”
Why?
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
People’s beliefs are sacred to them. It’s like insulting someones child. There are right ways and wrong ways to go about approaching a debatable viewpoint that maintain civility and dignity as well as steer the conversation towards intellectual ends instead of pettiness, vindictiveness, throwing insults or getting personal. Disrespect has no place in intellectual, academic conversations. People are entitled to think whatever they want in their head and have the right to voice it openly but just because they have the right, doesn’t make it right to do so. That whole “treat others as you would like to be treated” deal. Being polite. Common courtesy. Conducting oneself in a gentlemanly manner. Disrespect just widens the gap between people. If someone cannot respectfully disagree and make their point in an intelligent, non-insulting manner while leaving their emotions and personal issues at the door…. why would anyone waste their time interacting with them? It’s degrading to both parties as well as not building the foundation for deep consideration on what could be a very weighty topic with eternal consequences.
Fighting is actually the best thing a man can have in his soul.
“That whole ‘treat others as you would like to be treated’ deal.”
I’m not sure how to put this, but I would expect to be derided if I held beliefs that were wildly outdated and without much justification outside of the existence of an ancient and inconsistent book.
I give everyone a level of common courtesy. There shouldn’t be special rules when religion becomes a topic. Because if someone came in here and said Elvis would rise again and save us all, they would – rightfully – be laughed out of the conversation.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
"Because if someone came in here and said Elvis would rise again and save us all, they would – rightfully – be laughed out of the conversation."
Not if you’re living in Memphis.
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
Praise Elvis!
and “Thank Elvis” are commonly heard phrases around the bingo parlors of Memphis.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 6, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions
This is kind of unrelated
but I drop the N word a couple of times in a thread a while back for the sake of levity and Geno Mrosko (still know as AniMal at the time) gives me a hard time. It gets to the point where he flagged me for it, so I then posted a drawn out rant asking if he himself is black cause if not I won’t let him dictate whether I can and can’t use the word. Needless to say there was no response from his end. So it turns out the guy isn’t black but he still came into the thread telling me A BLACK PERSON that he doesn’t feel comfortable with me using the word, ain’t that bout a bitch?
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
Yeah that sucks
but fuck it, it the internet. Who cares?
I got warned for referencing a swastika, in a negative sense. As in anti-swastika/nazi. Oh well, this place is a magnet for condescension. And in true BE fashion, I sir, look down on you as well. Good day!
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 6, 2010 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh no good sir
for my pedestal is much higher and mightier than thou. I look down upon you all from my space mountain, carved with the intellectual inferiority of a thousand sons (sons as in the pathetic offspring you humans produce).
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
How is that a bitch?
So I can’t be uncomfortable with that word if I’m not black? That’s stupid.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
CagesideSeats.com
Follow me on Twitter at GenoMrosko
But you’re telling me, an actual black person that should feel some sort of hurtfull relevance to the word, that I shouldn’t say the word because you feel uncomfortable with it. Do you not see how freaking weird that is? If I just walked up to some mexican dudes talking and said to them “Gee fellas, do you mind not using the word spic cause honestly as a black person completely unrelated to it’s context I just feel uncomfortable with you Mexicans fellows using it” not only would they laugh in my face, more likely to probably slap me, they’d be somewhat justified in doing it.
If you don’t like the word don’t read my posts, but as a person that has actually been called the word I have no qualms with it if used in the right context. Like I said before, if you aren’t black so really you have absolutely NO justification for dictating whether I can use it or not if you’re not an administrator. Now if Luke said so, I’d cower in fear immediately.
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
I should clarify
I think you’re an okay guy Geno and I’ve just started getting into CagesideSeats and I certainly appreciate your progressive attitude towards it all, either that or you’ve just said it so much in your lifetime that you can’t possibly bear to hear the word ever again, but it is simply in my opinion ridiculous for you to tell me that an insult directed towards a group that I belong to and you don’t is simply too much for you to take.
I mean for crying out loud, I spelled it with the a at the end instead of the er, what more do ya want?
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
I hear you.
I understand your argument and don’t have too much of a problem with it. Two reasons I hate it and don’t think it ever needs to be used.
1. It’s a word that totally and completely has zero use in everyday conversation. There is never a time where that word makes sense to use. No single sentence can be enriched by sticking that word in it. It does nothing for anyone to keep it in their vocabulary.
2. Many black people have said that they’ve taken the word from white people who use it as a cutdown and made it into something of their own. Which doesn’t make any sense to me. All it does is further the usage of it and even pushes it even further into the mouths of ignorant fucking douche bag idiots that will say whatever to piss someone off. It’s a horrible word that just should never be used.
Again, it adds nothing and only incites negative feelings. I’ve been good friends with a man named Rich and his dad Herman and they’re black and it’s fucking horrible being around when that word comes up. It’s just useless in every way. The only time it’s necessary is when discussing it. Which is pretty much never on a website like this. That was all.
I think you’re cool and have no problem with you. Thanks for being civil with me. Not often you get that on the internet. I hope I haven’t come off like too much of a dick.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
CagesideSeats.com
Follow me on Twitter at GenoMrosko
Fair enough
and don’t worry, the only dick I see is in the reflection from my laptop when I type naked ;)
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
by Fake Emcee on Sep 7, 2010 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hahaha.
Well played, sir.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
CagesideSeats.com
Follow me on Twitter at GenoMrosko
Is that really the only dick you see?
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 7, 2010 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Who do I look like
that violent sexual predator Barack Lesnar?
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
If the shoe fits
then wear it. On your penis.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 7, 2010 5:15 AM EDT up reply actions
I would
but I have yet to find a store that makes big enough sizes.
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
I will when you…stop….shopping…at the jerkface store!
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
But the jerkface store is where all the well-endowed gentlemen with 100+ points on their man-card shop. They are the only place that carries products that can handle my…. how shall I put this? Monstrously huge wang. The size makes up for the extreme curvature. Or so my wife (and the hundreds of women who preceded her) told me.
Fighting is actually the best thing a man can have in his soul.
…well then…you’re a homo!
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
You sir, are intolerant, sexist, bigoted, hate-mongering and a poopyhead for even implying that. I will not dignify such baseless accusations with responses. Except this one.
Fighting is actually the best thing a man can have in his soul.
I don't get it
where’d you get a list of all the occupations I put on my resume?
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
It was why I didn’t hire you. My secretary got your permission to keep it on file for future consideration though so I dug it out just to make sure I got it all right.
Fighting is actually the best thing a man can have in his soul.
Secretary?
You mean that vagina in a skirt, yeah I remember that broad. Is that restraining order still active or has she finally let bygones be bygones.
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
I see your point....
….about treating certain topics differently and I strive to not do that myself but debating the existence of God is a bit heavy compared to debating who is going to win the next season of TUF. I think that common courtesy is something everyone wants and most deserve. There is a big difference in saying “You are stupid for saying Elvis is coming back” and “The idea of Elvis coming back is incorrect and here is why….” If you truly believed something in your heart and someone was able to show you the error of your ways… them being insulting or deriding towards you personally on top of just losing a strongly held belief is like being kicked while you are down. It is unnecessary unless said debate is happening under Pride rules.
Fighting is actually the best thing a man can have in his soul.
Pride 4EVA!
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
Because faith or non-faith is a huge factor in the lives of many
Perhaps more vital to the culture of one’s self than family and friends, in many instances. There is always freedom to say what you please, of course, but there are better ways than going the Dana White route of calling someone a fucktard.
I guess I should stress that I don’t really care what people say about me, unless they slander me. I’m just trying to express what a lot of very humble, good, honest people I personally know would feel.
"I talked about retirement a little bit, but told them I'd be the same ol' grumpy, pissed off guy." --Bobby Cox
yeah
I agree that going all DW on someone for their beliefs is inexcusable too, I’d never do that unless being cussed out by someone, I’ll let them throw the first punch so I can respond. but unfortunately, when talking about religion, sometimes being honest is enough to insult someone (even if you are being PC), and I sure can’t be sorry for being honest with my point of view.
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
I never said
anything bad about anyone else. I just said that was the experience I had with it. I’m a man of logic. You cannot apply logic to religion or the bible.
When these people come to my door and try to pedal god to me I can’t help but wonder what makes them think that way and believe that way. If I came to your door and started trying to convince you that the Sun is the rightful god you would laugh at me and think me crazy. Yet the Sun gives us life and without it we would be nothing.
We can all think what we want. I’m not shitting on anyone here.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
CagesideSeats.com
Follow me on Twitter at GenoMrosko
No, you didn't say anything bad about anybody else, nor did you shit on anybody.
You just said people of religious faith are illogical and their beliefs can be compared to whatever shit you make up some given day. (eye roll)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Nope, didn’t say that either.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
CagesideSeats.com
Follow me on Twitter at GenoMrosko
Yeah, you did. And you can act immature and pretend you didn't.
I’m a man of logic. You cannot apply logic to religion or the bible.
Is Christopher Hitchens code for “people who do not believe my beliefs are illogical”
When these people come to my door and try to pedal god to me I can’t help but wonder what makes them think that way and believe that way. If I came to your door and started trying to convince you that the Sun is the rightful god you would laugh at me and think me crazy. Yet the Sun gives us life and without it we would be nothing.
Is you basically using the Flying Spaghetti Monster argument, which has been grossly taken out of it’s original relevant context.
But whatever. You can be an ass about religion all you want. Won’t change anybodies mind and will make respectful non-believers look like dickish zealots.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
You’re pretty sensitive about this. You must be a believer. :)
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
CagesideSeats.com
Follow me on Twitter at GenoMrosko
Nope. Never was and have no intention of changing that.
But going to a liberal arts school awhile back honestly disgusted me. I had a friend who dared to be christian and live by his beliefs and he got all sorts of shit for it. He was constantly berated and mocked because all of a sudden the atheists were the majority in this bubble. The level of vitriol directed at him was nothing short of disgusting, and it sounded a hell of a lot like what you have been saying here.
So no, I’m a pretty steadfast non-believer. But I’m sickened by the low level of discourse by a huge amount of atheists.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Makes sense. People just get tired of all the god shit everywhere. And its fucking everywhere. If I went around pimping the devil it would be a big deal. People are allowed to pimp god but nothing else. It’s bullshit.
Some people don’t give two fucks about god and yet have to hear about it every day from everywhere. Being a christian is fine and all but the level of shit that religion has caused and how many times they consistently try to cram their beliefs down the collective throat of society makes me not really give a shit what those people think.
If you don’t like what I’m saying then I’m sorry. That’s how I feel about it.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
CagesideSeats.com
Follow me on Twitter at GenoMrosko
That's a perfectly fine opinion.
But don’t act like non-religious or specifically counter religious movements are responsible for a shitload of death too. Stalin and Mao, namely.
The truth is that fervently held beliefs when mixed with crazy people will result in bad things. That’s why we have Westboro Baptists, James Toney fighting MMA, and Juggalos. And if you need to go out of your way to mock and deride the beliefs of another person, as long as their beliefs do no harm to others, then why do it? If somebody believes in heaven and it helps them cope with life issues, who’s to say that they don’t deserve that comfort simply because you don’t accept it for yourself?
Now when it comes to changing public education to teach decidedly non-scientific beliefs as science, that’s when I see religion actively doing damage. I’ll have no tolerance for that. But when my friend chose not to drink to excess because that’s how he interpreted a passage of the Bible, there’s absolutely no reason to impugn his reasoning.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Sep 7, 2010 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions
That's fair.
Love the reference to Juggalos too.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
CagesideSeats.com
Follow me on Twitter at GenoMrosko
But don’t act like non-religious or specifically counter religious movements are responsible for a shitload of death too. Stalin and Mao, namely
difference being that they didn’t do the things they did in the name of atheism, whereas all the religious atrocities done has been done because they were fanatics of their religions and did them in the name of their religion and God(s).
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
Stalin and Mao, in the name of non-religious ideas
may have killed more people than religion ever has. I’d need to do some research to back that up, but they straight slaughtered tens of millions of people each. I’d confidently claim that their non-religious persecutions killed more people per day than any religious movement has.
Religion doesn’t create war and death. Crazy people create war and death, and will twist any books meaning to fit their purpose. It’s happened with the Bible, the Koran, the Communist Manifesto, and the Wealth of Nations.
Belief in a deity is not the issue. Fanaticism and demagoguery is. And even in a world with no religion, those two factors will still create violence unto others by some means. God is just a scapegoat.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Sep 7, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Belief in a deity is an issue, though.
It demonstrates a failure of reasoning.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
Whose reasoning?
Yours? If so, that’s fair. But there are many who made “reason” and its study their life’s greatest work.
“But if we ask who has so firmly established the laws of nature and who has limited its operations, then we will come to God as the supreme cause of the entirety of reason and nature.” —Kant
"I talked about retirement a little bit, but told them I'd be the same ol' grumpy, pissed off guy." --Bobby Cox
we agree on some things and disagree on others
my point is that atheism does not have a doctrine, atheists by nature are not ‘evil’ nor ‘good’, each person can be evil or good, but we don’t have a doctrine that teaches us how to think, who are the bad guys, what are the sins for various things, etc, these are things that religion will teach people. Fanatics, as you mentioned, will take those literally and can create a lot of sorrow for those surrounding them, not having a book telling us what is right from wrong (in their point of view), make us think for ourselves and progress with time inside our culture. Stalin and Mao were not following some kind of doctrine in order to kill people, in religious cases though, you can’t say the same.
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
false
stalin and mao, killing millions of people, have come far short to the totality killed due to religious beliefs
by Body Triangle on Sep 7, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I have neither the time nor inclination to argue this thoroughly.
But my point stands. Stalin killed something in the vicinity of 40 million people in the name of state socialism. The forced famine of Ukraine was a wholly non-religious genocide.
Chinese Nationalism has done similar, if not greater damage. The Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution are huge tragedies. The war between the Nationalists and Communist parties in China were devastating.
By having greater numbers available for slaughter and better technology to do it with, non-religious ideals have killed a SHITLOAD of people in only the last century. Nine figure body counts.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Sep 7, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
To me the greater point to this is not whether one killed more than the other, but, you can’t just take the bad of religion without taking the good. Anyone on this board can pull out their phone book and start looking for public assistance organizations. A good 70% of those found will be run by religious organizations of one stripe or another.
To add to this.
Many put Stalin’s count at 70-90 million.
Mao is at somewhere between 70-140 million.
The numbers vary on the definition of murder and responsibility.
Organized religion has been a steady burn for several mellenia.
I think this whole argument is sort of silly because many wars with non-religious motivations have used religion to fire up the masses. Hell, some of the Crusades were lead to open up trade routes.
I believe humans are not so far above the animals as we want to think we are.
again
there is no non-religious ideals, the only thing atheists share in common (technically) is our lack of belief in a God. You could argue that Stalin killed all those people in the name of State Socialism and not atheism… the two are not mutual to each other.
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
I'm not gonna go in defense mode here
But to say that there is an evenness to every issue. What about the missionaries in the poorest parts of the world, trying to bring shelter, medicine, food, and education to people “in the name of God”?
What about the person who feels deep, deep despair and can only find relief through their faith?
Should such things be forsaken because of war and bloodshed, when war and bloodshed would occur whether Judeo-Christianity existed or not?
This issue isn’t faith. It’s the people who use the easily manipulated (there are lots of secularists who follow Beck and Palin, for instance) to cull their power, this sullies your opinion of the faithful. One of the main teachings of Christ is humility, and if you, my good friend orcus, ever feel that someone is in your face and assaulting you with religion, well, they might just be doing Christianity wrong. Sadly, this is a widespread epidemic that gives the rest of us a bad reputation…
"I talked about retirement a little bit, but told them I'd be the same ol' grumpy, pissed off guy." --Bobby Cox
not at all
would you say that those fine individuals who choose to spend their life helping others, had they not been indoctrinated, would they still not help others? I find that hard to believe, good people are good people, bad people are bad people, and unfortunately good people can do bad things because of indoctrination. Good deeds can be done by the non-religious, that are many example of this, one does not need to have faith in order to help other human beings, we’re a community species, it’s in our nature to help one another. I don’t think religion is needed to help other people, people will still help other people if they don’t have faith.
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
The one option you didn't mention...
You mentioned:
Good people doing good things.
Good people doing bad things.
Bad people doing bad things.
You didn’t mention:
Bad people doing good things.
I personally feel the concept of good people and bad people is a bit optimistic. Evil exists in the hearts of all men, some just fight it harder then others. If faith gives people the will and strength to fight their evil natures, how is that a bad thing? Expecting perfection from anyone is obviously unreasonable. We are, after all, only human.
Fighting is actually the best thing a man can have in his soul.
but I don’t agree we are evil in nature, but because of original sin and the teachings, I understand why you feel this way.
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
I feel this way because I have never met a person that hadn’t done bad things. I have also seen many “bad” people turn their lives around and become “good” people because of faith.
Fighting is actually the best thing a man can have in his soul.
what do you mean by ‘bad’? when I was a kid, I stole some candy from the candy store. Was that bad because it’s in my nature, or was it because I was a kid and didn’t know much better? I also cheated on a school test before, is that in my nature? Or was it because I didn’t know any better? By the way, just to give some light, these were all done when I was still a Christian. We become mature with time. I also know of cases where a drunk husband begin going to church and quit drinking and beating his wife (just an example, there are plenty of this), could that not be done by secular meanings and can only be done by fear in God? Because I have also known of cases where they go to therapy and have had the same result, without being put in fear of hell for it.
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
Damn it!
I had an awesome reply all typed up and somehow lost it….
The gist of the suppositions I postulated:
-Kids are a bad example and aren’t to be trusted.
-Of course non-believers can make positive changes without God although some end up turning to God when they realize they need help
-more people who find religion decide to make those changes and have a higher success rate of doing so then those without religion
-most believers are not motivated by fear of the consequences of doing the wrong thing but by the rewards of doing the right thing, non-believers are only motivated by fear of the consequences
^imagine this as a well-thought out, beautifully articulated, grammatically correct post that blew your mind and would have gotten 45 recs.
Fighting is actually the best thing a man can have in his soul.
I had an awesome reply all typed up and somehow lost it….
God wanted it to happen! I kid :p
Of course non-believers can make positive changes without God
my point is that neither God nor religion is not needed to make someone change the way they act. I do acknowledge that it has in fact changed a lot of people for the better, my only point is that you can change people using secular means as well (this is not just for non-believers).
more people who find religion decide to make those changes and have a higher success rate of doing so then those without religion
show me the data that proves this statement.
most believers are not motivated by fear of the consequences of doing the wrong thing but by the rewards of doing the right thing,
in practice, believers try to do the right thing to get compensated (eternal life in heaven) and try to avoid doing the wrong things in fear of a hell.
non-believers are only motivated by fear of the consequences
consequences of what? the hell we don’t believe exist?
imagine this as a well-thought out, beautifully articulated, grammatically correct post that blew your mind and would have gotten 45 recs
I JUST CANNOT! I kid my man, I’m sure it was well thoughtout, sorry you lost it :p
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
oops
correction on the second answer there:
my point is that neither God nor religion isnotneeded to make someone change the way they act
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
I think we can both agree ANYONE can change. The question is how and why.
As for data… go to a church. It kinda goes without saying that when someone converts, they are planning on making some significant positive changes in their life. I would say close to 100%. Being that 100% of secular folks out there aren’t changing… churchgoing folks have that one hands down. The success rate thing is debatable, I should have noted that it was merely me stating my suspicion, as I did in my post that was destroyed by the Death Star.
As far as reward/consequence…. once you are saved, you really don’t need to worry about hell all that much. You have been forgiven. Then, you just rack up earthly and heavenly rewards.
I would never think non-believers are scared of a hell they don’t think exists. That’s just silly. Using your drunk abusive husband example, he might be motivated to change so that he doesn’t lose his wife, go to jail, become exposed publicly, get liver damage, etc. Those would be the type of negative consequences I was referring to.
I was my own fault I lost my original post, I thought I could reply to two posts at once and clicked over briefly to make a smart-ass comment about Fake Emcee’s small penis and his habitually shopping at Baby Gap for shoes in which to place said small penis. Pervert.
Fighting is actually the best thing a man can have in his soul.
I think we can both agree ANYONE can change.
definitely
The question is how and why
people change, there is no reason, everyone is unique in how and why they change.
As for data… go to a church. It kinda goes without saying that when someone converts, they are planning on making some significant positive changes in their life
Okay, I grew up in the church, and it doesn’t go without saying that people become church goers because they all the sudden want positive change, but because we harassed them into going to church (
*knock knock knock
*who is it?
*Have you heard of Christ yet?
Being that 100% of secular folks out there aren’t changing
you are making that up again, you are talking to an atheist man who has changed (I used to smoke and quit, without God, just some good counseling and therapy). If you make things up because of your bias, how are we supposed to have an honest debate?
As far as reward/consequence…. once you are saved, you really don’t need to worry about hell all that much. You have been forgiven
so once you are save, you have no more consequences, and therefore can do whatever you please?
I would never think non-believers are scared of a hell they don’t think exists. That’s just silly. Using your drunk abusive husband example, he might be motivated to change so that he doesn’t lose his wife, go to jail, become exposed publicly, get liver damage, etc. Those would be the type of negative consequences I was referring to.
I don’t think fear of going to jail is what keeps me from beating my wife. we have different world views here, you think men kind is perverted and evil by nature, I don’t.
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
-people change (for good or for bad) for reasons, all of which are based on something they desire: health, money, sex, power, peace, etc. Other wise, why change? Just for the hell of it?
-I was never, have never or even knew anyone who was harassed into going to a church of any religion. Many people I have met of many religions went of their own idea and all of their own free will. I suppose most of the rest that I have met were kids dragged there by a family member but I have never met one person who went because of the guys going door-to-door and as far as I know, only two major religions do that.
-it goes both ways: people want change so they start going to church or they go to church and then they want change. Either way, these are folks that are interested in personal growth and living a better life in some way and are working towards it.
-Are 100% of secular folks changing? I don’t have to leave my block to produce dozens who aren’t. That is less then 100%.
-awesome that you quit smoking, my wife and I are quitting right now too, it ain’t easy, thats for sure. We will be ok, but I can see why many reach out to people like AA (alcoholics anonymous, not andrei arlovski, although I am sure he would be a great sponsor), churches, pastors, etc. for support.
-before and after you are saved, it is more about what is in your heart, which is displayed in your actions. Once someone is saved (in Christianity anyway), there is very little you can do to jeopardize that salvation as long as your heart is in the right place and you recognize when you mess up and distance yourself from the error.
-So, what does keep you from beating your wife, if not the threat of jail? Not trying to be a dick but there must be some reason. My guess it is because the consequences of doing so are not something you desire.
-Every person has evil in them. We are all capable of the type of atrocities better left unsaid, given the right set of circumstances. However, that doesn’t mean we can’t have good in us as well. It is not one or the other, only which is controlling your heart and your actions.
Fighting is actually the best thing a man can have in his soul.
wow
people change (for good or for bad) for reasons, all of which are based on something they desire: health, money, sex, power, peace, etc. Other wise, why change? Just for the hell of it?
people change because of life; being beaten, raped, someone close dies, or being fired, having no money all of the sudden, etc, things that are beyond our control can change us, sometimes good things that happens to us can change us as well, for better or worse. it’s not that we intend to change, it’s that we change with things that happens with us or to us.
I was never, have never or even knew anyone who was harassed into going to a church of any religion
I was from the 7th Day Adventist church, it’s pretty much what we do. we’d also go to the house of people that stoped going to church to see why.
it goes both ways: people want change so they start going to church or they go to church and then they want change. Either way, these are folks that are interested in personal growth and living a better life in some way and are working towards it
no, people are fine before they are ‘made’ going to church, and by ‘made’ I mean lied to. Basically our best selling point was going for the poor, and sell our religion to their insecurities, telling them that God loves us all and there is no suffer to those who are followers because God is love (and by problem we meant money problems).
Are 100% of secular folks changing? I don’t have to leave my block to produce dozens who aren’t. That is less then 100%
I read as if it were 100% of them not changing, but I can see how you meant the other way around. But this can also be said to the religious who is trying to change…
So, what does keep you from beating your wife, if not the threat of jail? Not trying to be a dick but there must be some reason. My guess it is because the consequences of doing so are not something you desire.
I seriously find this to be very ignorant, I have no desire to beat my wife, who I love dearly, nor any other women I know, nor any other human I know. I do not have the desire to throw punches to random guys in the street, why would I throw one to my wife? you have a funny way of looking at humanity, and this is not your fault, it’s what I’m trying to say mostly that religion can blind us from reason. Do you honestly think, that if you were not religious, you’d have the desire to beat your wife? Or kill and rape people? You seem to be saying we atheists have no morals… and the only reason we stay civil is our fear of jail time? That’s what I call crazy talk…
we are a community species, we are adapted to live together, in our own nature we should work together and live in peace within our communities, this is in our nature. It wouldn’t be productive as a species to kill each other, this has nothing to do with religion. We have people who do kill, rape, beat up women, but when you look at humanity as a whole, those who do atrocities are a minority, a very small percentage when being compared to the whole population of humanity. Why don’t piranhas eat each other? Do they have morals to tell them not to do that? Or do you think that it’s more productive for them to work together and hunt together, and if they were to eat each other they wouldn’t be strong as a group when going after their kill? We do not have evil in us, that’s a very small minded way of looking at things. I don’t have faith in a God, but I do have faith in humanity…
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
- good point on people being changed by circumstances beyond their control, for good, or bad.
- I don’t really know the Adventist tradition well but I do know that I in no way support door-to-door evangelism, nor do I know anyone who does. It’s pretty messed-up that they prey on the weak and poor or harass folks who move on. I do not think that is typical in most Christian churches but based on your upbringing I can see why you became so disillusioned with it all and think what you do.
- I just cant accept that everyone who decides to go to church does so because they were forced to, harassed or lied to. I have studied and been active in many different religions and denominations and I just haven’t seen that.
-My point on the 100% thing was just that a higher percentage of people who are churchgoers are trying to make positive changes then the rest of the population. Not that it’s a statistic or even testable, only trying to make a correlation for religion (any of them) being a catalyst for change.
-I did not mean to imply you or anyone, myself included, would want to beat their wives or do evil things, only that we are all capable of it given the right circumstances and without some sort of intervention, divine, or otherwise. I do think though, that if it was a accepted by society, many more people would be violent with each other.
-I would love to meet someone who has no never desired to do something “bad.”
-Where do atheists get their morals from? Not being patronizing, I really want to know. I have extensively studied and explored many different religions/philosophies (mostly Eastern ones) but only glanced over atheism as there wasn’t much there and what was there was “all relative” anyway as well as it being more of a mindset then a religion/philosophy.
-We have evil in us because we have free will. It is necessary. Can you honestly tell me you have never wanted to do something “evil?” Lie? Cheat? Steal? Slander?
-Faith in humanity is a pipedream that will only continually let people down. I had that faith once too but it doesn’t explain evil things happening or give any hope. We have free will. People choose to do the evil things they do. They might be the minority but they are there and when they act, nothing is more inhumane. Humanity has not built up a strong enough track record of doing the right thing to deserve anyones trust.
Fighting is actually the best thing a man can have in his soul.
- I just cant accept that everyone who decides to go to church does so because they were forced to, harassed or lied to. I have studied and been active in many different religions and denominations and I just haven’t seen that.
Not everyone, but a good chunk. And let me clarify what I mean by harassment, it’s not that they were harassing them into going (I was trying to be funny with that), but they wouldn’t have gone if we had not invited them to go. And this happens with a lot of religions, you should study more…
-I did not mean to imply you or anyone, myself included, would want to beat their wives or do evil things, only that we are all capable of it given the right circumstances and without some sort of intervention, divine, or otherwise. I do think though, that if it was a accepted by society, many more people would be violent with each other.
Religious people are not immune of beating their wives and doing "evil" things, in fact, most of the people that do are religious (look at the prison population, it’s filled with theists in comparison to nonbelivers, and this is proportionally).
-I would love to meet someone who has no never desired to do something "bad."
Depends on your definition of "bad". What is "bad" to some religions is nonsense to me (such as homosexuality, do you think that’s bad? Or working on the Sabbath, is that bad?).
-Where do atheists get their morals from? Not being patronizing, I really want to know.
The same place you do, from our parents and from our society. You don’t really get your morals from your religion (I know you may think you do), but you don’t.
I have extensively studied and explored many different religions/philosophies (mostly Eastern ones) but only glanced over atheism as there wasn’t much there and what was there was "all relative" anyway as well as it being more of a mindset then a religion/philosophy.
That’s correct, atheism isn’t a religion or a philosophy, it’s an answer to a claim. We don’t have a doctrine that we follow, there is no ‘holy’ book for us. It’s only an answer to a claim, the claim being that "there is a God", and the answer which is "show me". Atheism is "show me". We don’t technically share any philosophy or ideals with other atheists. Now we are mostly like those around us, within our culture, but that has nothing to do with atheism or theism.
-We have evil in us because we have free will. It is necessary. Can you honestly tell me you have never wanted to do something "evil?" Lie? Cheat? Steal? Slander?
Nonsense. Have I ever lied? Of course, haven’t you? Have I ever cheated? Of course, haven’t you? Have I ever stolen something? Of course, haven’t you? Have I ever slandered anyone? Of course, haven’t you? And these were all done when I was still a Christian. Now, does being religious have anything to do with many people doing this? Religious people don’t have a higher set of morals, this is nonsense. It just so happens that less religious countries have less crimes than more religious countries… Lack of faith didn’t make these people turn out more violent, in fact, less violent. And to be fair they didn’t become less violent because they lost faith, but because countries that are less religious will usually have better education in schools.
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
can you apply logic to the teachings of religion though?
even the faithful say it doesn’t have to make sense per se, that we can’t comprehend the nature of God. Things that we can’t apply logic to it is by it’s nature illogical, no?
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
then
why use the current bible as a teaching tool if it’s no longer perfect? and to add to that, what God would allow his Word to be misunderstood?
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
Well,
from my 3 semesters of religion in college, what i’ve taken away is that what seems like a contradiction to me is described as “paradoxical dualism” in Christianity.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Sep 6, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Pointing to ancient scriptures and trying to extrapolate their meaning to modern society is naive at best, disingenuous at worst.
if it’s a holy book, which means it’s the word of God, why shouldn’t we use it to compare it to modern society? Morals (or God’s law), should not change… since God is perfect, no?
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
Weighing in...
I’ll try to keep this short and to the point, as I could easily deliver my own sermon on these topics and given the opportunity to address Mr. Groza’s congregation, I would. One thing to keep in mind is that Baptists are a special breed. Most Christians don’t believe the high standards set by Baptists to be sound or necessary.
I have a strong understanding of Christianity and the Bible but I am struggling to see where Mr. Groza is coming from. Without making any assumptions about his motives for seeking personal notoriety or monetary gain, I can confidently say he (intentionally?) missed some important points about how these issues are generally viewed from a religious (not just Christian) perspective and was driving his points within his own context and not that of the Bible or Christianity. I will try to shed some light on where he went wrong. Please keep in mind that this is mine, and mine alone, understanding of where most Christians probably stand on these issues based on my experience. I could be 100% wrong.
Violence is not black and white and not all violence is the same. The violence condemned in the Bible (and most other major religious texts) is perpetrated against someone who did not choose it, or simply was not given a choice, which makes them a victim (Mayhem?). As for “lovers of violence” and “city full of violence,” I think that applies to the people who perpetuate and profit off of this type of violence and those who stand by and do nothing, leaving our society and cities, much like those of Biblical times, infested with robbery, homicide, rape, assault and other brutalities against undeserving victims. In most Christians minds, there are situations where violence is more then justified and can even be required. However, MMA is voluntary, mutually-agreed upon combat between willing participants of sound mind. Taken as such, it is hardly acceptable to try to find ground to stand on for condemnation when measuring it against religious principles from just about any belief system or world view.
As for the objectifying women angle, I can comprehend his stance a little better. It is generally accepted in the Christian community that lust/impure thoughts is a sin. In this case, the ring girls are just the catalyst that instigate the sinful thoughts and temptations that are already in the mind of men due to their human condition (sinful nature). From a Christian perspective, if something (women in revealing outfits) causes you to sin (impure thoughts), you (MMA aficionado) should avoid that thing (looking at ring girls). Followers are also commanded to not do anything that might make a fellow believer stumble or sin. It’s pretty cut and dry for them. Baptists take it (and pretty much everything) to the extreme and often out of context but the general Christian community probably all believe that if you can’t see a female neutrally, or only with appreciation, without crossing over into lust, you shouldn’t be looking. The MMA industry is definitely cashing in using attractive (Bring back Logan and Natasha!) women to keep a better hold on their targeted demographic: young males. This can pose a problem for some religious types when it comes to being able to enjoy MMA without having to worry about being sinful in some way. It’s not the organization’s or the ring girl’s fault. They are a business, trying to make money (it’s working) with no religious convictions to adhere to about causing others to stumble. Consider an alcoholic. Would you offer one a beer or cocktail? Some can go to a bar with friends and not be tempted to drink. Others have to make sure there isn’t a drop of booze around for miles or they will head down their wrong path…. you do what you gotta do to keep from messing up. Otherwise, you suffer the consequences, which, in the Christian worldview, without salvation (<— important part that Mr. Groza doesn’t seem to mention) is hell. I don’t think the sin —> hell concept or the sin + salvation = heaven concept require any further insight here.
Besides, have you seen Chandella? I doubt anyone is having sinful thoughts about her.
Fighting is actually the best thing a man can have in his soul.
by fusion on Sep 5, 2010 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Excellent post. The part about violence I agree with 100 percent. We have to keep this all in the most accurate context or too much is left for us to interpret.
The second part I could discuss further but I think you got it and this is not the place to go further in this subject.
Thanks for keeping it short.
The most accurate context is difficult to understand without going back to the original language the scripture was written in. Even then, English has it’s limitations when compared to Hebrew, Greek and Arabic. Try explaining the concept of Elohim in English. Translations just don’t always work well. For example… the Hebrew word that was translated into “violence” in whatever translation Mr. Groza used for his sermon can also be translated as “aggression” or even “terrorism.” Further, there is some very wry irony to be found here. Mr. Groza mentioned Psalm 11:5. Psalm 11 was written in Hebrew by a man revered in several religions, David. This is important because David himself was a well-known warrior and king. David and Goliath? That was him. I really doubt David would have had a problem with all violence and certainly not with MMA. I can even imagine him in modern times, being a MMA fighter and kicking some serious ass. There, I kept this one shorter.
Fighting is actually the best thing a man can have in his soul.
You're doing it wrong...
I’ll try to keep this short and to the point
Just poking some fun =)
Guillotine.
I know, I know....
To my credit though, It WAS short and to the point considering the nature of the topic and how in depth I could have pursued it. I usually get long winded when I really want to make sure my point is being communicated as clearly as possible. It’s typically easier to spend a little extra time the first time being thorough then to have to repeat myself.
Fighting is actually the best thing a man can have in his soul.
Fusion, good retort.
According to Wiki Violence- is the expression of physical or verbal force against self or others, compelling action against one’s will on pain of being hurt.
I have a hard time understanding the double standard. Mr. Groza is condeming violence, but using violence to make his case. Am I out of line? Does anyone else see the connection? If, Mr. Groza is saying, we are gonna burn in hell for watching MMA. Isn’t he, trying to compel action against our will? For the fear of being hurt?
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
As a Christian, I reject this crazy SOB’s attempt to heap derison on the great American sport of football!
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Sep 6, 2010 3:08 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
too bad. maybe he’d like the WEC. always great action there with the little guys.
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by GregS123 on Sep 5, 2010 1:23 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
What I read from that:
“AND YE ALL SHALL BURN IN THE FIRES OF ETERNITY! FOR YE HAVE DISGRACED YOUR LORD BY OFFENDING THE SENSIBILITIES OF THE TIMELESS ONE, WITH THIS MEANINGLESS VIOLENCE! Buy my book. Donate to my church.”
I wonder how he feels about the culture of violence surrounding perfectly acceptable sports like football, or boxing.
From what I hear
Satan’s got a wicked ground game.
by Emoney on Sep 5, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It will be like Penn vs. Hughes II.
TKO from the crucifix.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Sep 5, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 10 recs
Don't worry bout it
My boy’s got this one
"I talked about retirement a little bit, but told them I'd be the same ol' grumpy, pissed off guy." --Bobby Cox
by Anthony Pace on Sep 5, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
A city to the North of me has a Lord’s Gym and thier logo is pretty similar except buff Jesus is doing a push-up with a huge cross on his back might of been one handed not sure.
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Sep 5, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
awesome
"I talked about retirement a little bit, but told them I'd be the same ol' grumpy, pissed off guy." --Bobby Cox
Not really
More like waived to the camera before going to sleep.
by RoB_ex on Sep 6, 2010 1:15 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Hello
Japan sinners?
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Sep 6, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
But Jesus would probably have better top control.
Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.
Except the bible story involves a sling, not a slingshot.
Very different weapon.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
Like I said, I'm not a Bible Scholar
Haha, thanks.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 5, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions
A predator?
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 5, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
i cant take any organized religion serious
Now, it is a “baptist” minister making these statements. So, I guess I can’t throw out the old line “shutup, pedophile”. Well, I can say it, being a baptist (at least for the first 10 yrs of my life). But, name calling aside, its obvious its an attention grab, there’s no need for us to defend our sport because we know why this was said. Hopefully someone will find a few interesting quotes in the bible thatll flip the script on this guy, hit him with a low blow, and watch him squirm.
Religious people are always using the “holier than though” image, but I would bet money on the fact this guy beats his wife/dog/kids at home on a regular basis.
Sorry if these comments are offensive, but if this guy is gonna let garbage spew from his mouth then there’s no reason we can’t all start spitting out garbage too.
"Catch Wrestlers don't look for opportunities, we create them" - Josh Barnett
by Submit24 on Sep 5, 2010 1:55 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I am a Christian
It infuriates my to read when preachers write this garbage. God made men to be MEN. We battle, we fight, we protect. We are warriors. That is by God’s own design!
There is examples of men being men in the Bible. Take a look at Genesis 32:24-28. Jacob, one of the fathers of our religion, WRESTLES with God throughout the night! (Great cardio huh?) Is he sent to “the fiery pits of Hell?” No. He is BLESSED for this.
by SanDiegoMMA.net on Sep 5, 2010 2:10 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
See this is what I was looking for
I remembered someone wrestling with God, but not whom.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 5, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Jacob wrestling with an angel all night?
Is probably what your looking for….
Clearly the first instance of Lay and Pray.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Sep 5, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 14 recs
I think it was just an angel
Not God. But, it’s been awhile since my Sunday School days.
Also, Jacob won via Dave Schultz Front Head Lock
"I talked about retirement a little bit, but told them I'd be the same ol' grumpy, pissed off guy." --Bobby Cox
The God I believe in isn't short on cash, Mister.
by memitim on Sep 5, 2010 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
possibly the last thing U2 said that I liked
"I'd love to be a Cheick Kongo looking brother that could actually move and do a lot of funky stuff - Jiu Jitsu, takedowns, kicks and stuff." - Jon Jones.
"This is the internet: you either have soul-stopping power or you’re a pillow-fisted pansy. There is no middle ground." - woomikee
While I may not agree...
With all he says, I thinks it a bit much to try to portray it as a money grab. And its not like he came and posted here, so I wouldnt be to hard on him for promoting his beliefs.
Well, he also directed comments towards other preachers who are using it to convert people
I mean if your heart is in the right place, you wouldn’t have a problem with that.
Unfortunately, this is America and money motivates 80% of people’s actions.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 5, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Just a quick note....
Church’s and other religious institutions are non-profit organizations. That being said, they do have operating expenses and they rely on their congregation to donate, buy things, etc. to help them be able to continue providing their “services.” At the end of the day though… they aren’t paying dividends, answering to stockholders, etc. Their balance sheets read $0.
Fighting is actually the best thing a man can have in his soul.
In an ideal world, yes.
Let me know when you find that world. Belief is big business and some people are making out like bandits.
Guillotine.
“Judge not lest ye be judged”
Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.
The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino
"Let he who is free of sin throw the first rock and I shall smoketh ... "
-Tyrone Biggums
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Sep 5, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
LOL
I better send this guy some money to ensure that I don’t go to hell for watching MMA.
I'm gonna give you three seconds; exactly three-fucking-seconds to wipe that stupid looking grin off your face or I will gouge out your eyeballs and skull-fuck you!
I was under the assumption I would just decay and turn into worm food after i died
Being in a cozy, warm place sounds much better IMO
by espino on Sep 5, 2010 4:19 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
It's nice to see this comment section civilized
Usually someone takes a dump on Christianity and gets 12 recs.
As a person with faith, if not religion, I just shake my head at this. I haven’t been to an actual church since I was 15 yrs old and my “youth leader” actually showed us a George W. propaganda video, but I know what all this is. He just needs a cause to rally behind. It’s so much easier to judge outwards than inwards.
Preachers become toothless, so to speak, when they don’t have a direction to go. This man takes aim at something highly visible like MMA because it’s easy.
"I talked about retirement a little bit, but told them I'd be the same ol' grumpy, pissed off guy." --Bobby Cox
by Anthony Pace on Sep 5, 2010 5:24 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
I wonder what the Jesus Didn’t Tap fighter would have to say
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Sep 5, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
That the Green Ranger was obviously the best Ranger.
"He sucks weiner! He sucks weiner!" - II SMASH II
by Earl Montclair on Sep 5, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Green? The color of money?
Isn’t the love of money the root of all evil?
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 5, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I almost want to rec this just for getting the saying right. I’d like to dropkick anyone who says “money is the root of all evil”.
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by Kaleb Kelchner on Sep 5, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
better do your stretches buddy. I’m not very short
"He sucks weiner! He sucks weiner!" - II SMASH II
by Earl Montclair on Sep 5, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude
barack_lesnar at yahell email me gypsy
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Sep 5, 2010 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Well said
It’s so much easier to judge outwardly than inwardly, yes. Exactly what I was trying to say.
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
Its important to make a distinction
Between Christ’s church – the body of true believers and what I call the visible church (the brick and mortar man-made institutions). There is some overlap of course, but they are not the same.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 5, 2010 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Not to get all serious but Christ’s church never truly existed. There is no such thing as Jesus’ church. The church we know was formed by an apostle who never knew or met him and who had an ulterior motive; uniting the region against the oppressive Roman regime. Before that, he was a genocidal sociopath. Eventually, the church that was formed was formed by those Romans and adopted many of their own practices and rituals and oh a ton of fucking violence. And that is just the few first hundred years. So, this clown getting up and interpreting the bible in this judgmental way is is such bullocks. Idi Amin was more genuine.
It's very true
The shocking truth is, very few (if any) “Christians” live an actually Christian life. Jesus’ message was radical and unsettling- give all you have to the poor, turn the other cheek, love they neighbor (not just your friends/ community members, your fellow man) as thyself, all those things are extremely hard things for us to do, especially in a country like America.
Per capita, we’re one of the worst at providing aid to the poor, domestically and internationally, yet something like 80+ percent of Americans claim to be Christian.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Sep 6, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
And it was that very message that got him killed back then and the same would happen today.
What’s particularly infuriating about this quack pastor writing this nonsense is he is trying to take food off the table for a group of fighters where this is the best way for them to provide for their families. You look at Brazil, where the line between rich and poor is so vast. This sport has helped so many in a place like that to live a life of purpose and integrity where if it didn’t exist in his BS utopia who knows what their lives would be like. It’s shameful.
by memitim on Sep 6, 2010 8:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Personally
I could never live that kind of life. I was never raised with religion, and I certainly couldn’t fathom working tirelessly my whole life just to give my earnings to some poor people I don’t know. I tend to follow the philosophies of Ayn Rand more to be honest.
That said, it is completely retarded that this guy is judging us. As Joe Rogan said during his infamous “You’re a fucking human being” speech, it’s when you get into the territory of claiming that your way is superior to others, that’s when it’s clear you’re full of shit.
That said, the scriptures themselves, and certainly Jesus’ message was one of non- violence, and I find it hard to believe that Jesus would be an MMA fan himself. It’s always befuddled me when fighters say that their carreer is all in God’s plans, it seems to me that if there were some kind of divine creator, controlling the course of humanity, that he certainly wouldn’t be worrying about the outcome of a prizefight. IDK, just my $.02
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Sep 7, 2010 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Jesus’ and the scriptures themselves speak nothing of non-violence, only unjustified violence. There is plenty of specificity regarding which violence is, or is not, justified.
The view that God wouldn’t care about the outcome of a fight is a fairly narrow view of a being that most conventional theistic religions feel is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent. In Christian terms, He cares about everything because He is able to and because it is in His nature. Everything happens for a reason. A verse from the Bible: “Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?”
Fighting is actually the best thing a man can have in his soul.
Ayn Rand has done more damage to contemporary society than any religion could ever dream of accomplishing alone.
And I believe that from the bottom of my heart.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Sep 8, 2010 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions
You are so right
For people who have actually read and studied the bible, you can’t help but notice that the majority, perhaps the vast majority (frequently including me), of those calling themselves Christians don’t appear to be by anything close to biblical standards.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 8, 2010 2:21 AM EDT up reply actions
i hope no one lets this guy determine what their view of Christianity is
This guy has first off, no clue about MMA, he thinks its just a blood bath spectacle. I wonder if he has been trying to rally the same opinion about Boxing? And if so, why not?
Im Christian, i love MMA, i love BJJ, and i compete in BJJ regularly and plan on fighting MMA. I find absolutely nothing wrong with MMA competition and i actually regularly watch the UFC PPV’s with a man who used to be the pastor of our church before he got terminally sick, and he used to train as well, and absolutely loves it.
If this preachers view was consistent with the Bible or Christianity in general, you would see little to NO Christians in MMA, yet we see tons of them.
This guy is ignorant and i hope he starts preaching on the forgiveness and Grace of God rather than condeming everyone
just 2 cents from a christian
I'm Christian
The way I look at it is this.
First off, most preachers, ministers, reverends, whatever, they don’t preach the truth. They preach what it takes to get numbers in the seats. Why do they do that you ask? Money. Money makes the churches go round. I won’t go any further in to that part of it. So he’s preaching against MMA to get his folks riled up and feeling good. Now, MMA is violent, but it’s not violent for violence sake. Not like those thugs at the gas station I ran in to at four in the morning the other day that just wanted to fight. It’s a restrained violence with two consenting adults who don’t really want to harm each other more than they absolutely have too. Most of these guys are very professional and respect each other and the living they make from fighting. Most of them don’t want to end somebody’s career. They perpetrate violence upon each other yes, but it’s not out of malice most of the time. Those guys at the gas station just wanted to perpetrate violence out of malice. That’s the difference in my mind. Maybe I’m wrong.
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
Basically
He’s preaching against MMA instead of focusing on the actual problems with the folks in his ministry. I can guarantee you several people in his church do much worse things than fight professionally for a living. But he doesn’t want to step on any toes so he gets a common thread that everybody can agree upon instead of focusing on serious matters.
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
My comment over at WKR.
I’m a Christian, and this is so blatantly ignorant that it’s not even funny. I could go on about how jokers like this guy are a great contributor to the reason Christianity, and any religion is such a joke now.
It boils down to how each and every individual looks at the sport really. To me, it is a sport, and I look at it in the context of being a sport. It’s not a fist fight to me, it’s a match. Now, you could go polar opposite, and have a guy who just really gets off on seeing people suffer…MMA wouldn’t nearly be doing enough for him. I think this minister needs to go after people who spank it to snuff films…not MMA…but I guess that wouldn’t get the same amount of people talking, now would it?
God’s not going to condemn anyone for enjoying a sport, he’s gonna look on your heart and see why you enjoy what you enjoy. If you’ve got some freaky violence fetish, then you might be in trouble (and really freaking weird). These guys don’t fight with evil intentions for one another, they’re usually quite friendly during and after the fight. This guy is really off base here, but we’ve got people with that same kind of mentality trying to keep the sport banned, they’re preaching the same thing without a bible in their hand.
Twitter me @kkelchner621
Read me at WatchKalibRun
If you look at the first five verses of Psalms 11 as a whole, you can gain context of what is being written. Those who “love violence” are the ones who attempt to drag good men down. The illustration given is one of bows and arrows being used to destroy the foundation of good men. It is not a condemnation of violence but a condemnation of people attempting to drag others down.
by Ramblin'man on Sep 5, 2010 7:15 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Exactly
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
Oh goddammit...
Is this really necessary, Mr. Reverend? Really? With all the horrible, ignorant shit happening in the world, a sport is the one thing to bitch about?
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift
by Scott C. Broussard on Sep 5, 2010 7:21 PM EDT reply actions
Yes, and I am sure if you asked the preacher about King Mo
he would say well that’s different. Islam is a curse from hell and he should not only be beaten down but we should burn his Koran on top of his defeated body.
Silly baptists.
Jesus could be alive today, preaching his gospel, saving souls, and bringing salvation to the masses… and their would still be some fricken’ idiot killing in his name.
I can tell you some very hardline Calvinist old schoolers who like UFC
a preacher named Mark Driscoll up in Seattle at Mars Hill Church comes mind, and even refers to the bloodied and sword wielding Jesus of the end times as “Ultimate Fighter Jesus” or “Thug Jesus.”
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
So
How would Jesus do in the bantamweight division?
perception is reality
by Marvin Malehooves on Sep 6, 2010 9:47 AM EDT reply actions
Additionally
why are we still babying christians? It’s fine to joke about everyone else in the world but once a christian subject comes up it suddenly has to be serious and thoughtful. That’s bullshit. I’m making a cross of poo in protest of the shit I cannot fling on the internet regarding it.
perception is reality
by Marvin Malehooves on Sep 6, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
You're joking right?
You got it twisted. Christianity has been the biggest and easiest target for the media and Hollywood elite for such a long time now, it’s become unoriginal, unfunny and cliche. The reason is doesn’t seem so now is because making fun of Christianity has officially jumped the shark. Couple that with the heavy push for “tolerance” from the same folks who made most of the fun (change of heart?)…. and you get a very confusing climate when it comes to whats appropriate and what gets you labeled racist, sexist, intolerant, bigoted, etc. Christianity has been an acceptable target but say something offensive about Islam and you are burned at the stake. Funny world we live in.
Fighting is actually the best thing a man can have in his soul.
You must be joking.
Say something offensive about Islam? Did you hear all the hateful shit people are spewing about the Ground Zero “mosque”? How about the church in Florida that is burning Qurans on 9/11? Do you have any idea what a shitstorm would be created if a group decided to dedicate a day to burning bibles? Get some perspective.
by memitim on Sep 6, 2010 10:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I have plenty.
The issues you mentioned about Islam are real conflicts that people are acting out on and need resolution. What I am talking about it just being hateful and mean for the sake of humor, entertainment, profit, notoriety, etc.
Fighting is actually the best thing a man can have in his soul.
I’m sorry, that makes no sense to me. It’s cool to burn Qurans because there is a real “conflict” but Bill Maher needs to be stopped because he makes jokes about religion. And every religion is the source of ridicule. Woody Allen, Jerry Seinfeld, Lewis Black, etc have made a living out of busting on Jews. Scientology is just a feat for entertainers. How many virgin jokes have you heard about martyrdom in Islam. Christianity is a target because it makes itself one with idiots like this pastor or constant comic fodder like Pat Robertson, Falwell, Palin, etc. It makes itself a target when the central teaching of Christ is give all you have away and live to serve and the Pope drives around in a car that costs more than most people’s houses around the world. If it practiced what it preached Christianity wouldn’t be mocked by anyone. It would be lauded. Unfortunately that’s not the case. It certainly doesn’t justify burning Qurans.
by memitim on Sep 7, 2010 8:47 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Wasn't clear enough....
I do not condone or support those Quran burners. I hadn’t heard about it but clearly, it’s not something I would support.
why are we still babying christians? It’s fine to joke about everyone else in the world but once a christian subject comes up it suddenly has to be serious and thoughtful.
every religion is the source of ridicule.
Clearly, as you stated, Christians aren’t being babied and are an easy target, as are most world views. What was your question again?
As I stated before, I treat anyone’s point of view with respect, no matter how ridiculous it sounds to me because it matters enough to them to try to share it with me. From there, respectfully disagreeing and removing myself from the conversation with civility and dignity is easy.
Fighting is actually the best thing a man can have in his soul.
I wasn’t talking about “babying Christians”. That is a different poster. My posts were specifically in response to this statement you made:
Christianity has been an acceptable target but say something offensive about Islam and you are burned at the stake.
That is just a ridiculous statement given the intense bigotry going on in this country towards Islam. You can make any joke you want, you can burn their bible, you call them every name in the book an no one bats an eye. Certainly not Christians since they are the ones doing it most of the time. Even the General in charge of the war is asking Americans to tone down the hateful rhetoric because it is putting our soldiers in danger.
Also, Christians have ruled Western civilization for what is going on thousands of years now and at times to disastrous results. Considering every religion gets lampooned, Christianity deserves its fair share.
Sorry if I mixed you up with someone else. I think we are talking about two different things. You are talking about people in general, I am talking about the media.
As far as the media, it’s not a problem to take cheap shots at Christians, but take one towards Islam and the poo flingers come out in hoards. Granted, the media has a heavy liberal slant and the political climate is a bit tumultuous but it still isn’t right. I’m with you, either everyone is an open target, or nobody is. They don’t see it that way though.
People in general however… well, people are people. There’s always gonna be a lot of poo flinging from all sides. Discrimination doesn’t discriminate. I cannot think of a race, religion, philosophy, sub-culture, etc. that doesn’t have people hating on it. I will say though, that Christians are one of the most popular groups that are hated on. It is easy to get away with and it is an easy bandwagon to jump on. Look at a college campus. Hate for Christians everywhere, even by professors. Tolerance. What does that even mean anymore?
Fighting is actually the best thing a man can have in his soul.
Miguel Torres vs. Jesus?
Frank Mir the referee.
Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.
Can't happen.
Before the fight, Mir would make Jesus admit that Miguel is the one true savior of man kind.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 6, 2010 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Murs got nothing.
Jesus wouldn’t tap. He’s gotten out of worse situations before.
Fighting is actually the best thing a man can have in his soul.
I don’t think dying and coming back three days later is an acceptable escape for armbars.
"You hear people say, 'You're the greatest,' and all this stuff. It's BS. It's fake, it's all fake. You've just got to keep training as hard as you can. The only thing real is the fight, everything else is fake." - BJ Penn
*rolls eyes*
It’s not violence, it’s competitive fighting, it’s a competition of skills and skill sets.
The goal is to win, the object of MMA is not simply ‘CAUSE VIOLENCE CUZ I WANNA SEE SOMEONE HURT!’
And even violence in films and video games is PRETEND, it’s for entertainment….the lovers of violence that verse is referring to is people who commit violent acts against others for no reason other than they enjoy doing so.
This is simply a narrowminded individual trying to wrongly use a bible verse against something he doesn’t personally approve of. I wonder how many footbal games he watches, are those not violent?
CPG
Well
I think it’s irresponsible and naive to say that MMA isn’t violence. By it’s nature, it’s the most violent sport- a sanctioned fight, with safety precautions and boundaries, but a fight nonetheless.
The goal is to win, but the ways to win in MMA are to either separate your opponent from consciousness, beat them so senseless they can’t defend themselves coherently, crank their joints until you elicit a surrender or you maim them, or display enough dominance over the other that the majority of judges see that you won the majority of points. Or by disqualification.
Realistically, MMA is a hooligan’s sport played by gentleman, boxing is a gentleman’s sport played by hooligans.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Sep 6, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I think religion is a very private matter and whatever you want to believe is fine with me
My religious beliefs are not made public but I will say I believe things that are logical and are supported by absolute fact. If you believe that the Earth was created by the Blue Men Group that’s fine with me, but don’t come knocking on my door preaching that to me.
Using religion or some other platform similar to it to preach something like saying you should hate MMA is irresponsible and stupid and I hate it to no end.
Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.
Much respect to your point of view.
I too believe things that are logical and are supported by absolute fact. The one hurdle I haven’t been able to get over is illustrated by the following two pictures.
Picture 1 
Picture 2 
In picture one I think “Nice mountain”. In picture two I think cool, wonder who did that? As a human I have no problem thinking picture one is random geological events that caused a mountain. In picture two I automatically assume that someone made that. I recognize the intelligence and intent. While Mt. Rushmore is great, the world is infinitely more complex. Where that leads is the question man has been asking since he gained the ability to think and reason.
What you talkin bout
it was improved tenfold.
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
Old NY Times Article about Christians and MMA
- http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/02/us/02fight.html?_r=1
Wanted to post as another angle on the article about a minister condemning MMA
by IpullguardIRL
Every one of my training sessions begins with prayer. We actually used to set our mats up and train in a meeting room of a local church. One of the gyms I train at even has a Bible study on Saturday mornings before training gets started. I would venture to guess that the percentage of the general population who are Christians follow through with a similar percentage in the MMA community.
Fighting is actually the best thing a man can have in his soul.
This is the stuff that makes me cringe. You can’t take one verse from a complete thought and give it a universal meaning.
The Psalms, many of them written by David, including this one, are written as a song to express a particular emotion or feeling. David spent much of his life being attacked by everyone from individuals to entire kingdoms. It begins with David wanting to take refuge in God from the enemies that attack him. The lovers of violence are Davids enemies. To say that this applies to people that watch mma is bastardizing the passage. The number one thing you must consider when reading the Bible is context. Read it yourself below.
From my post earlier up in the thread...
If you look at the first five verses of Psalms 11 as a whole, you can gain context of what is being written. Those who "love violence" are the ones who attempt to drag good men down. The illustration given is one of bows and arrows being used to destroy the foundation of good men. It is not a condemnation of violence but a condemnation of people attempting to drag others down.
Some context
Some context around Psalm 11…
-Written by David, a sheepherder, who fought and killed animals that attacked his flock. He became friends with King Saul, who asked him to slay Goliath in a time of war between the Israelites and the Philistines. God declared that David must become king. Saul disobeyed and tried to have David killed, driving him into hiding in the wilderness. Eventually, David became the Kind of Israel after Saul died. David also had someone killed so he could steal his wife.
-Psalm 11 was written as affirmation of trust in the safety and judgment of God as well as an admission of discouragement. It is a song to God, not a doctrinal exposition or imperative from God to us.
-Some feel Psalm 11 is a response to a type of “black magic” that was prevalent in Israel at the time but is more likely that it is referring to human enemies in wartime.
-The original word in hebrew that was translated to “violence” in the version Mr. Groza used can be translated as “aggression,” “desire to hurt others” or even “terrorism.”
Fighting is actually the best thing a man can have in his soul.
opinions vary
from: http://fightpastor.com/about/
Our creed…
Fight the Good Fight!
Our mission…
to be an ambassador for Christ to the MMA community and
to be an ambassador for MMA to the Christian culture.
Our ethos…
Creativity: we utilize artist expression to its fullest
Service: we exist to be a blessing to the MMA community
Support: we assist MMA ministries
Enjoyment: we love watching fights, meeting fighters and fans
Representation: we want to make Jesus look good.
Retarded
People really give a shit what some storybook written by a bunch of nomadic sheep herders 1500 to 4500 years ago says about Mixed Martial Arts?
"You stick a microphone in a guy's face and he calls out anybody but the champion, and Joe Silva should fax him a pink slip right then." -- Chael Sonnen.
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