Fabricio Werdum Is the Lineal Heavyweight Champion, Not Brock Lesnar
by Nick Thomas on Sep 4, 2010 10:53 PM EDT
in MMA News
Email
Print
Dave Meltzer explains:
The linear champion, a term used more commonly in boxing, is the guy who beats the champion to become the champion, regardless of specific belts recognized by sanctioning bodies.
... While Brock Lesnar holds that championship today, the linear title scenario isn’t as cut-and-dried. The UFC belt passed from (Mark) Coleman to Maurice Smith to Randy Couture, all in 1997. Couture then had money issues with the original UFC ownership group, left the company without being defeated, and went to Japan.
... Nobody beat (Fedor) Emelianenko until June 26, 2010, in San Jose, when Fabricio Werdum submitted him with an armbar in 1:09 in a Strikeforce match. So while Lesnar holds the most publicized version of a world title, Werdum actually holds the linear claim that traces back to (Ken) Shamrock.
-- Click here to see who are the champions in remaining major weight divisions of MMA.
230 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Read that yesterday...
And while it was an interesting history lesson, I find the argument less than compelling simply because there are alot of questionable factors at play, especially while the “Linear Championship” was touring around Japan.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
I agree it's nice in a "gey look at that"
But there are a lot of things at play. Fighters fight differently in championship fights. There was no belt on the line in most of those “matches”.
/sarcasm
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 4, 2010 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
"Fighters fight differently in championship fights."
And recent history suggests they also fight differently in #1 contender matches, which is why I wish Dana would stop making them. All of them, in recent history, have been boring conservative affairs.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
I competely agree
I was going to write something about that. Look at the last fights
JDS/Nelson
Fitch/Alves
Maynard/Florian
Rashad/Rampage
/sarcasm
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 4, 2010 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I loved it
I was just listing the last number 1 contender matches
/sarcasm
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 5, 2010 2:10 AM EDT up reply actions
But he said all of them were boring
and then you listed that fight?
I hear you,
but saying a Fitch fight was methodical is like saying that there’s not going to be much ground fighting in a K-1 match
I think a good tweak for all would be
To have Dana make #1 contender fights contingent on a finish of some variety to receive a guaranteed shot – no finish, his discretion as to shot or no shot…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 5, 2010 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah I like this, unofficially of course:) You can’t give bonuses out for every finish or something. Guys have to be able to fight their way, and I don’t want that manipulated too much. But if a guy isn’t finishing lesser opponents, even if they’re great opponents, to me he may not be ready to fight for a belt. I thought the Machida progression went nicely. Lyoto dominated a string of fights, then finished Soku, owned Tito, then knocked out Thiago. That’s making a case. Not just clinging to the possibility of a title fight with the wet blanket death grip.
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Sep 5, 2010 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions
You know I'm about the biggest MMA Wrestling mark around, but
I really think some tweaks are going to have to be made to increase the “watchability” factor for the casual and potential fans if MMA is going to continue to grow as it has.
Some may ultimately end up requiring changes to the URs and/or at the AC level, but the UFC can make some changes on its own that would increase the liklihood of more finishes.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 5, 2010 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Yellow card
10% purse deduction is motovation
Twitter @i_c_u_hater
http://dreamthemez.wordpress.com
http://dreamthemez.unfilteredmma.com
http://fightlife.unfilteredmma.com
by Thats It For you! on Sep 6, 2010 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions
It certainly is,
But that is something that would have to be implemented at the athletic commision level in several states to be viable, a process that would likely take years.
It may come to that, but I would like to see the UFC make some changes it can unilaterally make like adding finishing bonuses and making them a much bigger part of the pie than just win bonuses are.
The very top guys (who get a ppv cut) wouldn’t be influenced by this, but even that could be modified contractually if need be, and almost everyone would be motivated to seek finishes, save only those for whom a UD against a particular opponent is the only option for victory.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 6, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
"unofficially of course:)"
This is how Edgar originally got his shot at the title before Maynard.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
No need to go that far
Just don’t announce them as contender matches.
/sarcasm
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 5, 2010 2:11 AM EDT up reply actions
I do agree that it has screwed up some matches.
However, it adds a tournament feel to the sport and that’s something I really appreciate. Like a constant playoff season. Knowing Maynard/Florian was for a title shot made it a better show for myself. The same goes for a lot of fights that are more evenly matched.
Do people really buy cards because it's a number 1 contender match?
/sarcasm
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 5, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I had this argument with Subo a few days back when he said "beat the champ to be the champ" is why the UFC is king.
Werdum and Aoki beat the champ. UFC does not dominate every division by this logic. Oops.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Aoki beat Kawajiri to claim the linear “belt”
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
So by that logic
Gil is now the linear champ?
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 4, 2010 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions
did u read the article?
Aoki beat Kawajiri AFTER losing to Gil
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
Not sure what article you mean
But I did have a timing brain fart…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 4, 2010 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
The article that this entire thread is about… Meltzer breaks down all the weightclasses lineage.
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
Melendez is the ex post facto linear lightweight champion. Not to be confused with the linear lightweight champion, who is Aoki. Not to be confused with the linear minus-that-one-break-that-Penn-took lightweight champion, Edgar.
Holy shit. This really is starting to look like boxing.
The only solution is a triangle match. Say kayfabe three times fast.
by Brent Ducharme on Sep 4, 2010 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions
In b4 Luke Thomas
PROWRESTLING!
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Sep 4, 2010 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
It may. But I am pretty certain all of this means that Werdum is also the IFL heavyweight champion. Bring on the belts, bitches.
by Brent Ducharme on Sep 4, 2010 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Nobody cares about the intercontinental champ though.
Who would be the hardcore champ.
Who the fuck knows. Couture holds the IBA heavyweight title though. Better watch out for Haye and the Klit Bros.
by Brent Ducharme on Sep 4, 2010 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Here's what is important to me
I look at the UFC champ and say “would he beat the best fighter in his weight class who is not currently in the UFC?” and in all cases I say yes. By this criteria the UFC does dominate.
Thats completely subjective though
for the most part, the linear “equation” is not. It’s a paper trail of the champions.
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
Not really
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Sep 5, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
There’s not a lot of question in the HW division. If you start at UFC 1 or UFC 6 you end up at the same spot. Same goes if you feel like starting at the 2000 or 2004 pride GPs. I’m not sure where else there would be to start.
Duh, 2001 in the UFC! Or maybe after the TUF 1 finale?
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 5, 2010 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't worry
Snowden making a pissy response unrelated to what you’re actually saying is a pretty strong endorsement (witness the comments of my Misaki post at WKR)
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Sep 5, 2010 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s exactly what he’s saying. It’s not subjective once you pick a starting point, and all the logical starting points end at the same place. To be the man you have to beat the man…
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 5, 2010 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Logical to who?
It is 100% subjective…
I can argue since we are talking linear champion, that Frank Shamrock get the title through his fight with Elvis until the end of 2000 and a new linear champ wouldn’t be crowned until 2001…which is after the Tito/Wanderlei fight that Meltzer said start the LHW chain.
If memory serves the first time Hendo/Busta fought in 2003 was at LHW. The second time was at the end of 2005 was at MW. By that point Busta hadn’t fought at MW for 2 to 3 years. Why wasn’t Tanner/Terrel, the final match of a mini tournament that crowned the UFC champ, the return of the MW linear champ instead of keeping it with a guy fighting at a new weight class for years?
At LW, I thought Bang/Penn was at WW? So Bang would keep the title (if Busta did) until he lost to Tyson Griffin and it ends up with Maynard. Also, why not start at Uno/Sato which happened years before Pulver/Uno?
It is all sbjective and can be argued and started anywhere a person wants to.
Yeah that's about right
I like that Maynard line too, it adds a little extra oomph to the upcoming title bout.
And that's totally fair.
Subo said to be the champ, you must beat the champ. That was his reasoning behind Frankie being ranked about Melendez. So… fine. Then the UFC only has champs/number one in 3/5 divisions they promote. Not my logic, it was his and apparently Meltzer agrees enough to write an article about it.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Well, at first, Meltzer was INCORRECT
in the observer, he was arguing that Lesnar IS the lineal champion. He had to be corrected on that fact by someone.
/sarcasm
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 4, 2010 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Linear or not, Brock is the Champ in the best HW division in MMA.....
Time is a factor, and so is competition. Both are on Brock’s side.
interesting, but it's something that really doesn't matter anyway.
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 4, 2010 10:05 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 11 recs
None of this shit matters. News flash!
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 4, 2010 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait...
An MMA journalist might write crazy shit that doesn’t matter just to stir up shit and get page hits?
Too bad someone didn’t think of this before Meltzer.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
by Razreshat on Sep 4, 2010 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions 16 recs
How is following the heavyweight title across the years and across the world stirring up crazy shit? My God.
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 4, 2010 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Seems to be working here.
Also, learn to take a joke and laugh at yourself.
You write great articles, that interview with Tim Silva was one of my favorite this year on this entire site. However, you also write some stuff that appears blatantly inciteful. I was just ribbing you based on that.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
by Razreshat on Sep 4, 2010 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I’m not worried about any of that. But poor Meltzer was not writing “crazy shit.”
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 4, 2010 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Please don't hijack thread
This is an article that needs to be discussed and I am so over the “hate the mods” meme
█♣█
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who -- Jay-Z
Chop bustin'
Anton Tabuena – Graphic Artist & Community Moderator
Scott Haber – News & Community Moderator
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
we're the only "mods" technically... and I don't see guys hating (that much) on us.
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 4, 2010 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Your name is hard to pronounce
I think.
/sarcasm
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 4, 2010 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions
It's okay hon,
I’m sorry I made you sleep on the couch last night.
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 4, 2010 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Should've taken the futon when I offered it
Cruisin on the interstate/just follow while I innovate
Too many try and imitate/medallion like a dinner plate
Front and get ya dinner ate/chinchilla for the winter, wait
I'm trying to bring the "Sexy Back" like Timbaland and Timberlake
That’s because you’re so damn cuddley.
by John Nash on Sep 5, 2010 2:01 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I've only had one dude spam my inbox for "banning him" (I didn't)
otherwise, not that much haters…really shows how I haven’t made it yet… haha.
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 5, 2010 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Go another week without posting a Natasha pic in Hows taste my tweet tweet
See how “friendly” I am then
Cruisin on the interstate/just follow while I innovate
Too many try and imitate/medallion like a dinner plate
Front and get ya dinner ate/chinchilla for the winter, wait
I'm trying to bring the "Sexy Back" like Timbaland and Timberlake
Logan and Natasha aren't posting that much pictures anymore :(
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 5, 2010 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Well did you tell them that they should?
Cruisin on the interstate/just follow while I innovate
Too many try and imitate/medallion like a dinner plate
Front and get ya dinner ate/chinchilla for the winter, wait
I'm trying to bring the "Sexy Back" like Timbaland and Timberlake
My bad
Don’t hate the front pagers.
█♣█
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who -- Jay-Z
Its more of a...
Snowden meme.
The original article is an interesting history lesson, however the implication that some champs (or all of them in the case of HW) are less or more legitimate based on lineage is a bit of pot stiring, in my opinion.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
It's not pot stirring
It is high level, MMA thesis writing about the deep history of the sport, to be appreciated by obsessive fans.
█♣█
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who -- Jay-Z
I found it
more of a “How about that?” type of article, rather than a “These are the legitimate Champions!” kind of feature.
Interesting, but ultimately inconsequential except for trivialists.
Umm...
Its not a Snowden article…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 4, 2010 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Read my greened comment above...
that is the meme part.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
No one says this. Not in Meltzer’s piece or in this article, which contains an excerpt from Meltzer.
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 4, 2010 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
That was an article lifted from every message board ever. And one he flubbed before going back to correct!
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 4, 2010 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know why you’re shitting on it, but whatever. I don’t read a lot of messageboards, so it was new to me.
http://www.instrength.com
I’m not shitting on it. It is a good concept. I’m just surprised it’s not one you’ve seen before. If you are seeing it for the first time, it probably blew your mind!
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 4, 2010 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed....
Every weight class’s title has been vacated, stripped, and had interim version of them made enough to bring up this kind of thinking long ago.
Contributor, NorthTexasFisticuffs.com
Follow me on Twitter
by Applejack McNeil on Sep 4, 2010 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I read that article from Meltzer, but when he took the alternative time line, didn’t he make a mistake? Fedor beat Nogueira at Shockwave 04 way before Barnett beat Nogueira at the Grand Prix, therefore if you think Fujita vs Coleman is a legitimate title change or not, it still ends up with Werdum.
"Caol Uno was like Mutoh. He developed into a star overseas and then returned to his home country a much bigger deal. Dokonjonosuke Mishima is like Kobashi because they both do moonsaults. Don Frye is like Stan Hansen because they are both fat dumb rednecks with mustaches." - Jonathan Snowden
For anyone confused...
I’m talking about the article in the newsletter not on Yahoo sports.
"Caol Uno was like Mutoh. He developed into a star overseas and then returned to his home country a much bigger deal. Dokonjonosuke Mishima is like Kobashi because they both do moonsaults. Don Frye is like Stan Hansen because they are both fat dumb rednecks with mustaches." - Jonathan Snowden
by RagingNoodles on Sep 4, 2010 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes he was. He's since corrected it.
/sarcasm
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 4, 2010 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I was going to send him an email about it, but then I thought someone would have pointed it out to him by now.
"Caol Uno was like Mutoh. He developed into a star overseas and then returned to his home country a much bigger deal. Dokonjonosuke Mishima is like Kobashi because they both do moonsaults. Don Frye is like Stan Hansen because they are both fat dumb rednecks with mustaches." - Jonathan Snowden
by RagingNoodles on Sep 4, 2010 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Yea d00d
let me guess… you have no interest in this article and don’t care what it says? Then don’t take the time to come in here comment. It’s that simple.
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
no i read it but people always look for a reason to downgrade brock as the best and this is just another one of those articals that have no purpose but to make excuses as to why brocks not a real champ or not the best,, linear champ…its like saying lebrons and the cavaliers are the nba champs without winning a title
Yeah Dave “Wrestling Observer” Meltzer has an anti-Lesnar agenda….
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 4, 2010 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
No…. he’s not… Lineage champion discussion has been around for a long time and I’ve had good conversations about it but it’s something that many people have not been exposed to. It’s not something to try and take anything away from anybody, it’s something for us MMA nerds to talk about. Just because BE decided to show an excerpt from the Fedor/Werdum/Brock part doesn’t mean thats what the whole article is about.
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
by midwestbred on Sep 4, 2010 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
/\ This
Read the whole article.
█♣█
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who -- Jay-Z
i read the whole artical before i posted i just pointed out the part that the beginning of this posting was focused on cause to be honest i could go back to when aoki was the wamma champ and everyone was trying to say he was some linear champ over bj penn….means shit nothing at all
the focal point is not the whole artical but a small summary of one part of the article which makes no since because this guy beats that guy that doesn’t hold a title it makes him the champ over all the champs that do hold titles well fine…josh barnett is the greatest heavyweight of all time hes the wamma, linear, supercalifragilisticespialidocious champ and we are all his little minions lol
im the linear champ….no i pity the fool who think he the linear champ
No. Actually, he originally stated that LESNAR held the lineal title
saying that it went to Nog then to Barnett then back to Nog then to Mir then to Lesnar IIRC, he was incorrect.
/sarcasm
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 4, 2010 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
no i read it but people always look for a reason to downgrade brock as the best and this is just another one of those articals that have no purpose but to make excuses as to why brocks not a real champ or not the best,, linear champ…its like saying lebrons and the cavaliers are the nba champs without winning a title
good read
but it fucks my whole life up.
i’m going to bed. i hope this is forgotten by morning.
by silent.bisonte33 on Sep 4, 2010 10:20 PM EDT reply actions
The MW Title lineage is the best. Chael was the linear champ til he lost to AS. Crazy.
Hard core MMA fan since UFC 99
by ChiCubs23 on Sep 4, 2010 10:24 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I was always under the impression that it was "Lineal"
As in, of a lineage.
by capital L on Sep 4, 2010 10:31 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
1st post ever
“Lineal?!”
Epic Fail. Awesome. First post ever is an epic fail.
Rex Rules
That would be correct
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 4, 2010 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions
still at it
"How do you shoot the devil in the back? What if you miss?"
by DamnSevern on Sep 4, 2010 10:39 PM EDT reply actions 7 recs
so i guess Dos Santos is KING
he beat the guy that beat fedor and beat the guy that was fedor’s biggest win(Cro Cop)
Fedor’s biggest win was against Nogueira.
"Caol Uno was like Mutoh. He developed into a star overseas and then returned to his home country a much bigger deal. Dokonjonosuke Mishima is like Kobashi because they both do moonsaults. Don Frye is like Stan Hansen because they are both fat dumb rednecks with mustaches." - Jonathan Snowden
by RagingNoodles on Sep 4, 2010 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Zulu.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Sep 4, 2010 11:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah I guess it depends on if we’re talking height or weight.
by ufc4 on Sep 4, 2010 11:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Wouldn’t his "biggest" win be HMC?
I made this exact joke in an email to Haber a few weeks ago, except it was Daiju Takase and Anderson Silva/Emanuel Yarborough.
by Chris Nelson on Sep 5, 2010 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Wow, I never realized Anderson Silva and Emanuel Yarborough had a common opponent.
by ufc4 on Sep 5, 2010 11:08 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Great article
The part about Silva-Sonnen blew my mind like a double rainbow.
█♣█
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who -- Jay-Z
What does it mean?
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
by Razreshat on Sep 4, 2010 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I love this man! WHOAA!
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Sep 5, 2010 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
My only thoughts on this matter are
meh
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Sep 4, 2010 10:55 PM EDT reply actions
Why does Meltzer...
Include fights outside the belt’s weight class?
Penn fought Ludwig at 170. Sonnen/Filho II was at a catchweight since Filho didn’t make weight. Silva lost to Takase at MW, not 170.
I talked about this on my show a few months back and this is what I got:
HW: Werdum
LWH: Shogun
MW: Filho
WW: Shields
LW: Maynard
Contributor, NorthTexasFisticuffs.com
Follow me on Twitter
by Applejack McNeil on Sep 4, 2010 11:02 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Sonnen/Filho should count as the fight was contracted for 185 pounds. I know the WEC title was no longer on the line either when Filho failed to make weight but it’s not Chael’s fault that Filho is a giant fuck-up.
And wasn’t the ROTR tournament (where I’m guessing you’ve got WW going from Silva to Okami to Shields) fought at 175?
FYI, he was not trying to "slag" Brock
He actually had Brock as the lineal champion due to his error until he corrected it.
/sarcasm
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 4, 2010 11:18 PM EDT reply actions
The Lineal Light Heavyweight champ is actually a Moroccan prison guard!!
Lee Muarry became the champ when he knocked out Tito Ortiz. Lee Muarry was then gang assaulted in a Moroccan prison. The inmate who was the main catalyst in the assault on Lee Muarry was then beat up with a nightstick by the Moroccan prison guard!! He is the rightful owner of the linear title!!
by MMAruinedME on Sep 4, 2010 11:26 PM EDT reply actions 10 recs
Bahahaha
Rec’d
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 5, 2010 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions
If nothing else
This is a compelling argument for Aoki-Melendez 2 in japan for the lineal LW Championship.
█♣█
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who -- Jay-Z
Great. The UFC will fling money at whomever holds this quaint title, rendered meaningless by Fedor’s constant fucking around, and then that belt will merge with the UFC belt. Yippee.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Sep 4, 2010 11:40 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I love how Subo catches feelings about the lineal title.
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 4, 2010 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
can’t we agree that this idea of an “undisputed” lineal champ or a p4p champ for that matter is just plain ridiculous? there’s no answer thats gonna be more “right” than the next, since it is all a matter of opinion when dealing with fighters that are fighting in different organizations or in different weight classes.
No, we can’t agree. P4P champions are just subjective opinions. But the lineal championship isn’t based on opinion at all. It’s a historical account.
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 4, 2010 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions
how can you have a lineal champion when you have several different organizations, and fedor never fought any of the people lesnar fought and vice versa? how do you decide who is the more “legit” lineal champion?
*yeah they share 1 of their opponents in heath herring, but my point still stands.
lineal means line. You start at the beginning and go from there.
by Phildo on Sep 5, 2010 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You need to read the article. The lineal title is passed from person to person. It is bigger than any organization or contract dispute. It is fun to discuss. It’s not a covert way to diss Brock or anyone else. Have some fun.
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 5, 2010 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions
I think people are getting too worked up on the title...
This is not a UFC vs the rest, or Fedor vs Brock, it’s just plain fun… Sure it doesn’t mean much, but it’s a very fun and interesting concept.
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 5, 2010 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions
You have stunted my writing for tomorrow!
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Sep 5, 2010 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Bring Werdum back in the UFC
So Brock can proceed to smash him.
There, new champion.
Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.
I'd like to see how a Dos Santos / Werdum rematch goes down.
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 5, 2010 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Probably with Werdum going down again.
I’d like to see how an Arlovski/Werdum rematch goes down and see if it tops the awesome slapfest from UFC 70.
Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.
yeah i’ll agree, JDS has top notch takedown defense vs. non wrestlers… he hasn’t fought a wrestler yet, so he might have even better takedown defense than i give him credit for.
Nelson's wrestling is pretty damn good.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
Nelson's grappling is very good
His wrestling, particularly his takedowns, not so much…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 5, 2010 8:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Roy Nelson would be the most dangerous guy in that division if he had better takedowns.
Craziness.
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
Twitter me and what not.
Roy does have some serious skills
And a world-class chin…he kind of has Nate Marquardt syndrome IMO – very good at everything, elite at nothing…perpetual top contender or high level gate keeper at best…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 6, 2010 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions
I was really not expecting this thread to go nuclear when I first clicked on the comments…………strange.
"He sucks weiner! He sucks weiner!" - II SMASH II
ALL YOU ZUFFA NUT HUGGERS CAN SUCK IT
FEDORS THE CHAMP AGAIN WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
FINALLY A REASON TO BREATHE AGAIN!!
Cruisin on the interstate/just follow while I innovate
Too many try and imitate/medallion like a dinner plate
Front and get ya dinner ate/chinchilla for the winter, wait
I'm trying to bring the "Sexy Back" like Timbaland and Timberlake
here ya go.
"He sucks weiner! He sucks weiner!" - II SMASH II
by Earl Montclair on Sep 5, 2010 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions
That was painful to say honestly
Thanks for slowing me down I needed that
Cruisin on the interstate/just follow while I innovate
Too many try and imitate/medallion like a dinner plate
Front and get ya dinner ate/chinchilla for the winter, wait
I'm trying to bring the "Sexy Back" like Timbaland and Timberlake
Stun grenade.
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Sep 5, 2010 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm sorry
All I heard was “Blah blah blah I’m a dirty tramp”
Saturday, Donny, is Shabbos, the Jewish day of rest. That means that I don't work, I don't get in a car, I don't f@#king ride in a car, I don't pick up the phone, I don't turn on the oven, and I sure as s*@it don't f#$kng roll! Shomer shabbos!
by timthemit53 on Sep 5, 2010 1:00 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
I wish my hearing could be this selective
Cruisin on the interstate/just follow while I innovate
Too many try and imitate/medallion like a dinner plate
Front and get ya dinner ate/chinchilla for the winter, wait
I'm trying to bring the "Sexy Back" like Timbaland and Timberlake
So Shogun is the linear Shooto welterweight champion?
Sergio Non,
MMA writer, USA TODAY
http://mma.usatoday.com
Shouldn’t the fight have to take place in the correct weight class?
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Richard is a jewel." - Kid Nate
An interesting history lesson I guess but even less relevant than MMAth is to the actual sport. Wonder how many degrees the “linear champ” is away from Kevin Bacon?
I’m full of ONEness evil.
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Sep 5, 2010 3:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Probably could find a shorter route but off the top of my head
Werdum pummeled Vera who lost a close one to Couture who was just in the Expendables, written directed and starring Stallone who climbed on a bunch of stuff in Cliffhanger with Lithgow who feared the power of dance in Footloose with Kevin Bacon.
by Balrog on Sep 5, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I have the answer.
Werdum lost to Big Nog – who had a minor role in the Expendables. Jason Statham was in the Expendables and also in Collateral with Tom Cruise. Cruise was in Born on the 4th of July with Kyra Sedgwick. Sedgwick is Kevin Bacon’s wife.
by Brent Ducharme on Sep 6, 2010 3:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Balrog pulled out Footloose. That is a sufficient tiebreaker. I admit defeat.
by Brent Ducharme on Sep 6, 2010 3:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Fights link Werdum to Nog and summarily to Couture. Couture was in Invincible with Kevin Conway. Conway was in Mystic River with Kevin Bacon.
by Brent Ducharme on Sep 6, 2010 3:48 AM EDT up reply actions
YO BIG THINGS IN THE WORKS
IF YOU LIKE THAT I’M A MESS YOU’LL BE INTO THIS
Follow me on twitter @thisredengine
Also please check out SBnation's Red Bulls blog @ www.onceametro.com
There were so many technical errors in that peice, I can’t believe it’s even worthy of a discussion. His entire lightweight linear write up is based on the notion that Penn beat Ludwig at lightweight, when it was in fact at 170.
The fact that he thinks Murilo Bustamante vs Dave Menne at UFC 35 was the creation of the UFC middleweight title tells you everything you need to know. I guess the five rounds of Dave Menne vs Gil Castillo at UFC 33 never happened.
I really like Dave, but he missed the boat on this one. Hopefully he can learn from this and do better fact checking next time before putting a story up.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore Roosevelt
I’m a big Metlzer but lately that guy has been off his game, aside from the mistakes the ideal of Lineal champion is simply idiotic. As the piece showed it’s such a clusterfuck that it’s not really worth discussing, it’s become clear who the best fighters in the world are they all hold a zuffa championship. Aside from that everything else is just a ridiculous example of follow the bouncing ball yet without the ball.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
I don’t know much about Meltzer’s writing but I have watched a lot of the fights involving the belts. What I get from that viewing is that MMA is great because there is no such thing as a discrete rank. Werdum might beat Fedor, UFC might beat Werdum, Fedor might beat the UFC. It’s muddy. It’s great.
This whole conversation seems like a different way to view the question of whether Fedor would beat Brock. I can’t see much point to it beyond that or sniffing your own farts.
You could be quoting Dana White with your post.
But to answer the question, unless Brock is coming off a debilitating sickness, he wins.
This means nothing so
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
by Damon O. on Sep 5, 2010 9:57 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
This article is adorable. I know the press is trying to save it’s own reputation by trying to make it seem that Fedor getting choked out by a guy who couldn’t hack it in the UFC doesn’t make him irrelevant.
Fact of the matter is that Werdum beat Fedor, and Fedor hadn’t fought a fight that someone like Lesnar or Cain couldn’t have destroyed just as easy, or easier. This “lineal chamption” shit doesn’t mean anything when the “lineal chamption” isn’t fighting the top competition.
You are reading way to much into this
It only means exactly what it means by definition, no more, no less. Nobody, least of all Dave freaking Meltzer, is using this concept in some sort of rear guard action against the legitimacy of Brock Lesnar, or indeed of any of the UFC’s title holders. Eventually these things tend to work themselves out.
You may be right
That’s more or less my general reaction to the mention of the Fedor/Werdum bout as anything more than Fedor getting trounced. Truthfully, this article isn’t nearly as dumb as ranking Werdum as the number two heavyweight in the world, or putting Fedor above the guy he just got spanked by in the USA Today rankings.
No offense met on my part, but at the same time it does seem kinda silly. Honestly though, the only way that Meltzer could have written a sillier article was if he wrote one about Werdum’s belly button lint or something.
So either you are logic challenged or you have a persecution complex about a subject that doesn’t even involve you personally? Either way it must make for a sad life. This is a pure fluff article about the history of the sport, enjoy the ride or move on to something else but don’t try to read more into it than is actually there.
This is getting so out of control here. DAVE MELTZER WROTE THIS! No one likes Brock more, not even Paul Heyman or Sable. To suggest this was something to make Fedor look good is intellectually dishonest. Actually, I feel bad even using the word “intellectual” to describe any part of this backlash.
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 5, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Jesus, people get so worked up about this shit. Meltzer wasn’t trying to “prove” anything. He was just mentioning it, which IS true, but is also only meaningful because it’s interesting not because it’s important.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Sep 5, 2010 10:46 AM EDT reply actions
I swear at least 85% of people involved in MMA—promoters, fighters, managers, trainers, amateurs, and fans—have some sort of persecution complex. Everybody seems entirely obsessed with finding the hidden hand and solving The Mystery of the Hidden Criticism.
This phenomenon is bad enough in sports in general, but it is off the charts in MMA. Either you are promoting a secret anti-Zuffa agenda, or you are on the personal Dana White payroll, or you’re just straight hating on Mark Pavelich.
Complementing this problem very nicely is that fact that actually is a pattern of way over-the-top criticism and backlash, which I suppose only reinforces this ridiculous sensitivity further.
I of course consider myself well above this sort of nonsense, except for all those sad and exciting occasions when I’m not.
by capital L on Sep 5, 2010 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
yeah but from the average BE reader’s point of view:
you come to the site and right on top is a headline which basically reads “Werdum is the real HW champ.”
even if it doesn’t literally say that, that’s what everyone is seeing. kind of gets you fired up. might have been better if this snippet was part of a larger post on the heavyweight division in general… rather than its own headline.
but hey, this is my favorite mma site, not trying to bust your balls, just being honest.
www.tapology.com | twitter @tapology
It says "Werdum is the lineal heavyweight champion," which is true.
(Technically it said “linear,” but together we are gonna join up like hands across America and eliminate that misconception.)
The fact that it’s little more than a historical curiosity doesn’t really come to bear on the fact that it’s an accurate statement and a well-established topic regarding prize fighting.
sigh… i think you all miss my point. i can read what it says.
brent questioned why people get so worked up. the answer is that the headline, while factually accurate, is inflammatory to everyone who quickly glances at it, and not really deserving of being a headline.
just because something is a fact doesn’t mean it’s news.
www.tapology.com | twitter @tapology
I think we should stop using big words too. The same people who don’t understand the lineal champion concept might not know what they mean.
How dumbed down do you want the content on this site?
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 5, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
nah, not about dumbing down articles. even if i disagree with a snowden piece, they’re all real articles, with arguments and information. it’s legit stuff.
but up above is a pointless, inflammatory headline that is OBVIOUSLY going to piss people off. nobody on BE staff should be surprised by the reaction.
www.tapology.com | twitter @tapology
If you are posting in the comments section of a MMA blog site for any reason besides personal entertainment then perhaps it’s time to re-examine why you are posting at all. Getting fired up for a interesting conversation about a controversial topic can be fun (see the discussions under most of Snowden’s articles) but to actually get upset over an article and attack the site or author personally for writing it is a bit much. I think that a lot of people around here just take everything too much to heart and get too worked up over stuff for their own good.
I wonder if BROCKLESNAR fans understand that BROCKLESNAR doesn’t like them? Maybe that is part of his appeal?
Fabricio Werdum is the Lineal Heavyweight Champion.
That little title change would likely cut down about half the worked up responses.
However adding in BROCKLESNAR to the title probably tripled the traffic of this article.
Guillotine.
Someone find this
A bunch of the champs supplemented their incomes by taking pro wrestling gigs, if anyone could find someone who lost a pro match while still a Lineal Champ please post it. Lukerage is always fun.
I actually found the article to be fairly interesting, if ultimately pointless. However I do get a kick out of certain writers on here wondering why people are getting upset. This is especially entertaining after some of those same writers have already basically admitted in the past to posting inflammatory pieces for the sole purpose of hits.
When I saw the title I knew this would be fuel for a heated debate
As I am sure many already know. The concept of lineal championship is an old one that was adopted by Ring magazine for boxing when the alphabet belts appeared on the scene in the 1960’s. And I think it is a valid measure. I don’t think anyone can really argue with the idea that titles can only truly be won and lost in the ring(or octagon in this case).
I am assuming that Meltzer has gone through the laborious process of tracking his theory then?. I have not so I am wondering of course how he arrived at Fedor being the one in line?. Does anyone know exactly?
I know that Couture lost his first fight when he went to Japan in a Vale Tudo event against Enson Inoue. Does Meltzer then follow Inoue to his next loss and so on?.
Also, the Lineal championship would be subjected to the myriad of different styles and rules that have taken place in MMA. One would think that you would have to establish an MMA “Standard” of rules in the same way that Boxing was for the last 100 years. If the Heavyweight champion was 1st recognized in the UFC. Can we really recognize the next winner of the Championship if it was carried to Pancrase, Vale Tudo or even say Pride where they use a ring and allow foot stomps and soccer kicks?. I think that would be the most difficult task. And if the UFC is the standard then we would need to recognize Couture when he came back and lost to Barnett and go up from there.
Come on Brent, do some research for us on all the possibilities!
Many of your questions are answered with a click on the link to the story. I don’t think the issues are as clear cut as you suggest regarding Japanese events. Why is it a problem for the lineal title to change hands at a VTJ event because the rules have some variations, but not a problem for Couture’s return to the UFC where the rules were markedly different than they were when he initially won the title?
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 5, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah yes, I didn't see the link to the article
And I didn’t write that anything was clear cut. But if your using the UFC as being where the 1st lineal championship started. Then you throw standards out the window?. The UFC changed (and obviously improved)rules, but they still had an octagon. So I think this is where it gets dicey because how do you measure what “significantly” changes the standard by which it is established?. Even Couture has stated in past interviews that when he went to japan he felt like a fish out of water and many have theorized that he would have won both matches against Inuoie and Illoukhine had they been in the UFC.
Keeping in mind that I don’t have a problem with Fedor being the lineal champion over Lesnar, I just am curious how one arrives at the conclusion. And I don’t see how it can be as cut in stone because the standard is not established. I think it then opens up the cavernous debate of what exactly is MMA?.
The standard is guys fighting professionally. None of these titles were exchanged in limited rules bouts like Pancrase or RINGS.
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 5, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Where, like in the Encyclopedia Britannica?
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 5, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t understand what you want here. It’s a fun way of looking at the history of MMA. The title can switch hands in any recognized MMA fight, anywhere in the world. I don’t see what is confusing.
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 5, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah well why didn't you say so
I don’t want to spoil anyone’s fun!
is wikipedia ok?
I can’t believe there is so much drama and whining about such a simple concept, especially the HW division, which is one of the simplest ones.
and since some people don’t like wikipedia, here’s another.
(sorry Luke)
Im getting really tired
of Bloody Elbow and Sherdog ranking Fabricio Werdum and Fedor so high. Sherdog has Werdum above Junior Dos Santos, which is blasphemy. Look, hate to say it to all you " UFC isn’t the end all be all of mma" ( which it isn’t), but their top fighters are the best in the world and have proven it time and time again. In no way should Fabricio Werdum be held in higher regard than Brock Lesnar, Cain Velasquez, Junior Dos Santos, Shane Carwin….
BE doesn't have rankings
They take the rankings from a bunch of sites and combine them into one meta-ranking. Your beef is with the other MMA sites.
/sarcasm
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 5, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you really so tired of life....
…that the position of Fabricio Werdum, of all people, on a totally subjective ranking of fighters created for the amusement of people on the internet and having no actual relevance to the business of MMA causes you so much distress?
You might want to reconsider your choice of hobbies. This shit is supposed to be fun.
"With gold thou boughtest Gýmir's daughter,
and so gavest away thy sword:
but when Muspell's sons through the dark forest ride,
thou, unhappy, wilt not have wherewith to fight."
~ Lokasenna
i do, and this is a good site
I just think most sites rankings are insane.
by theworldismine on Sep 5, 2010 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I really want to thank all of you who sucked the fun out of this article. Its rather sad that something so harmless has sparked such an outrage.
by sadface on Sep 5, 2010 6:05 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 5 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Bloody Elbow
Related FanShots on Bloody Elbow
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
MMA Rankings
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
