Could all 5 UFC Champs be wrestlers this time next year?
by WALES on Sep 4, 2010 12:38 PM EDT
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PrintDoing some work on my BLOG!
And I came up with this.........
At the moment we have.....
Lightweight - Frankie Edgar - WRESTLER
Welterweight - GSP - WRESTLER
Middleweight - Anderson Silva
Light Heavyweight - Mauricio Rua
Heavyweight - Brock Lesnar - WRESTLER
New lightweight champion, Frankie Edgar, will make his first defence against fellow wrestler Gray Maynard. Maynard is a monster at lightweight. He has the wrestling and strength to beat anyone in the lightweight division. Maynard already holds a win over Edgar. Both fighters are wrestlers and wrestling wins no matter who wins.
I'm not even going to waste my time talking about GSP and if the UFC middleweight title will be under the control of a wrestler.
Anderson Silva is a legend in MMA and has had a great run a middleweight champion. Which fighters have given him the hardest time? Dan Henderson was the first fighter in the UFC to take a round from Anderson. While Henderson was using his wrestling base he was winning the fight. Henderson comes out for 2nd and tries to strike with Anderson and ends up losing the fight. Could Dan Henderson had won the fight if he had stuck to using his wrestling?
We all saw what happen between Cheal Sonnen and Anderson. If Sonnen had fought a smarter 5th round he could be the middleweight champion today. He had given Anderson a beating for 4 rounds. Sonnen and Anderson are due for a re-match and as we have seen that Sonnen has the skill set to beat Anderson.
Mauricio Rua has beaten three wrestlers during his MMA career. Were they well trained MMA wrestlers? Coleman and Randleman are not known for their striking or subs. They came into MMA with just they high level wrestling and have not looked to improve their general MMA skills. Rampage just likes to stand and bang and might use a big slam now and again.
I would say that Coleman, Randleman and Rampage are not well trained MMA wrestlers that come in with a well thought out MMA game plan.
Rashad Evans is what I would consider as a well trained MMA fighter who would come in with a good game plan to beat Rua.
Is a stand up fighter going to beat Rua?
Is a BBJ fighter going to beat Rua?
Or is someone who can take Rua down and control him stands the best chance of beating him? Rashad Evans is a MMA trained wrestler that has the skill set to be able to do that to Rua.
At Heavyweight, the top dog is also another wrestler. Brock Lesnar won the UFC heavyweight title within 4 fights and has defended his title twice. That's a fast track to UFC gold. How did he get there so fast? Is he a world class striker or sub fighter? Many experts have Lesnar ranked as their best heavyweight in the world and he got there based on his wrestling base. Just being big, strong and fast won't win you the belt. Just ask Bob Sapp.
The two fighters that stand the best chance of beating Brock are Cain Velasquez and Shane Carwin and both are wrestlers.
If Roy Nelson could grab his leg, then Brock, Cain and Carwin would be able to take Junior dos Santos down. Frank Mir was useless on the ground against Brock in their 2nd fight. Would dos Santos be able to offer more of a fight if he went to the ground against Brock, Cain or Carwin?
I think you might have to look outside the UFC to find a HW that could win the belt and not have wrestling as his main skill.
How would Fedor do in the land of the giants? Like Rua, Fedor has beaten both Coleman and Randleman. Has Fedor beaten a wrestler yet then has come from a top MMA camp? Please don't say Lindland. Matt Lindland made his name as a middleweight. I think Brock, Cain and Carwin all have the talent to beat the GOAT heavyweight fighter. Brock would get the TD on Fedor and I can't see Fedor being able to sweep him.
Alistair Overeem is another heavyweight fighter that could take the belt away from the wrestlers at heavywight. My problem with Overeem is that he has failed in MMA every time he has come up against a top fighter. He never got to the top of the mountain at light heavyweight and is yet to test himself against the best at heavyweight.
And what does the future hold? Greg Jackson, DeathClutch/Brock Lesnar and AKA are all looking to bring in top NCAA talent and train them into top MMA fighters.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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GSP was never a wrestler
he just adapted really well to MMA wrestling. As for the topic of this post, idc if all the champs are wrestlers. They will all be balanced Mixed Martial Artists. It’s not like Frankie used his wrestling to smother BJ on the ground for 5 rounds. GSP doesnt stay in gaurd and throw short hammerfists to stay busy. Chael has already proven he can be exciting. I don’t give Rashad a good chance of beating Rua. Mostly because I have always though that Rua, although an amazing striker, has always shined when he was working his ground game. Also Cain or Brock are more than just wrestlers at this point in their careers.
Even if all the champions are wrestling based by next year, I dont they will be stale, boring top control wrestlers that most people think of when they hear that someone is a wrestler.
Proud member of the newly established Frankie Edgar bandwagon
Cain will beat Brock, I am accepting sig bets.
Agreed
Only Maynard and especially Sonnen have shown a propensity for staying in someone’s guard instead of trying to consistently improve position, and Sonnen stays busy while he is there.
I am very anxious to see Edgar-Maynard as I think it will be a great fight. Having said that, Edgar appears to have improved and evolved more since their first fight than Maynard has, but will it be enough…good stuff coming…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 5, 2010 8:27 AM EDT up reply actions
This post is either willfully ignorant or not well thought out...
If only Shogun would had fought a guy with strong takedowns and top control while he was in his first prime (2005) then we might have an idea how it would play out today.
Oops.
But you said maybe a dangerous submission fighter could beat him. Arona was kind a blanket right? We don’t know how Shogun can handle an active submission threat.
Or… we totally do.
There’s always that chance that another striker could come along and show him what for!
Oh, right.
Did you have a point other than “If wresters win everything then they’ve won everything!” There’s a better argument that BJJ is still the dominant style. GSP, Anderson, and Shogun are all black belts. Just as many UFC champs with black belts as there are wrestlers.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Sep 4, 2010 2:56 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
Please remove Rua’s nuts from your mouth.
And do you really think GSP uses he BJJ BB more than his wrestling?
And none of those GIFs you posted include wrestlers? Post the one when he broke his arm when he made a rookie mistake against Coleman.
http://mmaandme.blogspot.com - MY BLOG - All about MMA, me and porn!
You could have been reasonable and taken the point
or you could dismiss all the real history you glazed over and ignored while plugging your ears and shouting “LALALALALALALA!” I see you’ve chosen which.
Regarding GSP… sure, we can do this. He got 11 takedowns in the Hardy fight. He had 26 guard passes and 6 submission attempts. That sounds like a whole lot more jiujitsu to me.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Sep 4, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
he had 6 submission attempts? For some reason the only one I can remember is the kimura either way I do specifically remember when he got his back he sank hooks in and didn’t go for a leg ride. Realistically yeah by next year all champs could be wrestlers but by the same token all of them could be strikers as well
Numbers are from here:
http://blog.fightmetric.com/2010/08/st-pierre-vs-hardy-fightmetric-report.html#more
We can say jiujitsu is still the dominant style because maybe next year all the champs will be black belts. BJ or Kenny could bounce back strong. GSP, Shields, and Fitch are all black belts. Anderson, Marquardt, Demian, and Vitor are all black belts. Shogun, Lyoto, Rashad (officially), and Lil Nog are all black belts. Werdum has the ability to submit anybody in the world on any given night, although I’ll admit that’s the flimsiest one I have right now. Eight of the top ten in Sherdog’s most recent P4P rankings are black belts.
Clearly BJJ is still the greatest ground fighting system ever and the champions next year will prove it! (eye roll)
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Sep 4, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
How can you not realise that comparing takedowns to guard passes is irrelevant? It’s actually quite laughable.
Does the attacking fighter have to stand back up following a guard pass attempt now? I must have missed the rules update.
Takedowns set up guard passes, did you not realise that? You have to complete a takedown (with the exception of a sweep) before you begin to attempt passing your opponents guard, correct? And each takedown may produce many guard passes/submission attempts. GSP attempted so many guard passes/submissions because he was on top of Hardy the whole fight, I wonder how he got there? Can’t quite seem to remember..
We are One.
You are going way of topic.
Getting back to topic, do you think that this time next year could all 5 champs have wrestling as their main skill set?
http://mmaandme.blogspot.com - MY BLOG - All about MMA, me and porn!
I think MMA will be their main skill set
by drano on Sep 4, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I was directly addressing what you brought up, but ok...
Could it happen? Like, are their guys who wrestle who could conceivably be fighting for the title within the next year and have a chance to win it? Sure, but that’s about as inane of a point as there can be.
Look up at my list of BJJ black belts. Over the same time frame it is conceivable that every champion will be a black belt in jiujitsu. Hooray.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Sep 4, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
His point is that all five champions will fighters whose base is wrestling, and whose main weapon is wrestling. It’s not just that they happen to wrestle – Maynard/Edgar, Koscheck (this one’s a stretch), Sonnen, Rashad, and Lesnar/Velasquez are all primarily wrestlers, and come from wrestling backgrounds. Most of the likely black belt champions you named don’t come from a BJJ background, and BJJ is not their main weapon.
So yeah, it does mean something that so many wrestlers are poised to be champion.
"You hear people say, 'You're the greatest,' and all this stuff. It's BS. It's fake, it's all fake. You've just got to keep training as hard as you can. The only thing real is the fight, everything else is fake." - BJ Penn
by crazybones on Sep 5, 2010 4:45 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Training in BJJ, especially defensively, is a necessary component of MMA Wrestling
It is rather likely that most future will have BJJ BBs, even if they are awarded like Barnett’s with NO formal BJJ training whatsoever…
BJJ also is still the best discipline for a good degree of success in MMA if you are a single-discipline fighter, but that approach (BJJ or otherwise) is nearly extinct at the highest levels of MMA…
Wrestling has been and will remain the best base for MMA simply because with that, the superior wrestler controls where the fight will take place.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 5, 2010 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Where to start with this...
I should preface this with the fact (that will become obvious) that I am a huge Rua fan, but…
1). Rua has NEVER faced an elite MMA wrestler, and, aside from the fact that he is a better BJJ guy than AS, and has excellent sweeps, there is no reason to think it won’t look a lot like Sonnen-Silva with a different ending (since Sonnen, for all of his wrestling acumen, lacks many of the required traits to be an elite MMA Wrestler).
Rua has shown himself to be very succeptible to being taken down, and either Rashad or Jon Jones would take him down with ease. Having said that, Rashad’s weakest point in his MMA Wrestling game IMO is his top control, so it is possible that Rua sweeps him at least once. However, Rashad is also a BJJ BB, so Rua submitting him is highly unlikely at best given his MMA Wrestling. Of course, on the feet, this one gets really ugly really quickly for Evans…
To get an idea of how it might play out, one need look no further than what happened with Coleman (both times), who while a great wrestler in his time (and vicious GnP guy), was not remotely on the level of today’s elite MMA Wrestlers.
2). When the poster asked:
Is a BBJ fighter going to beat Rua?
You replied:
But you said maybe a dangerous submission fighter could beat him. Arona was kind a blanket right? We don’t know how Shogun can handle an active submission threat.
He was clearly implying that a BJJ fighter was not going to beat Rua. And I totally agree. Rua has not shown much of his BJJ offensive arsenal in MMA, but if hazy memory is correct, he was a very high level BJJ player several years ago. I know, BJ was too, but unlike Penn, Rua has evolved his game over the years.
3). Same thing applies to the original comment about a striker beating Rua and your reply – he was clearly saying it was not going to be a striker who beat him. IMO, only Anderson could possibly beat Shogun standing, and that is probably the fight I most want to see in MMA right now, although it is unlikely to ever happen.
4). Your closing comparison is disingenuous at best:
Did you have a point other than "If wresters win everything then they’ve won everything!" There’s a better argument that BJJ is still the dominant style. GSP, Anderson, and Shogun are all black belts. Just as many UFC champs with black belts as there are wrestlers.
GSP was a blue belt if not a white belt when he first became champion. Yes, he has incorporated BJJ into his overall grappling game very well, but it is his MMA Wrestling that makes him so dominant.
Rashad Evans is a BJJ BB, Shane Carwin is a purple belt, but no one would ever imagine them to be BJJ guys first. Hell, Josh Barnett is catch wrestler who has a legit BJJ BB without ever having trained at BJJ (it was awarded based on competition merit and overall knowledge).
Barring any rule changes, the elite MMA Wrestlers are the future of the sport…fortunately (for the “watchability factor” critical to continued growth of MMA) this rising group of true MMA Wrestlers will more closely resemble GSP, Jones, Edgar, Davis or Askren than they will Sonnen, Rashad, Maynard and the like…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 5, 2010 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
The point is that everything he said boils down to "if wrestlers win then they won!"
It’s a tautology of a fanpost. The whole concept is silly, and his support was weak. I was sarcastically dragging it apart then made an equally inane argument, but if you agree with him then lets do it.
How do you define a “wrestler”? We’ll use GSP as a case study since you seem to say he falls into that category. Is it because he has a wrestling background? You know as well as anybody that he doesn’t, he’s a kyokushin fighter based on that reasoning. Is it because he uses wrestling more than any other skill? Well, sure he gets a lot of wrestling takedowns, but he uses his BJJ skills more once it’s on the ground. He never goes for back rides, he sinks his hooks. He gives up top position to go for armbars and such (see the Dan Hardy fight). But even if you want to say it’s because he wrestles more than anything else now, then that disqualified Edgar, who has straight outboxed his opponents for the last 4 fights… barring that jiujitsu submission he used on Matt Veach after he got his hooks in. It’s certainly not wrestling footwork he’s using for that in and out movement.
So using amorphous logic like WALES did, the UFC champs are a boxer, a kyokushin striker, another boxer, a muay thai fighter, and a wrestler. One wrestler. What a weak fighting style…
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Sep 5, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I’ll be honest, I didn’t catch the sarcastic tone originally, but…
There are many aspects to MMA Wrestling, but at the end of the day, if we’re going for the overly simplistic approach (which seems to be the case here), then I would differentiate it based on their use of wrestling as a component of their fighting style – specifically, can (and do) they use it to control where the fight takes place against any opponent save a superior wreslter?
Using that as a basic criteria for determining if the future champs might have a wrestling base, the answer is an emphatic “yes” for the Edgar/Maynard winner, GSP, Sonnen (should he prevail), Rashad (or Jones) should he prevail, and Lesnar/Cain.
I’m not concerned with what they are formally trained in, or what their first discipline is, but in how they use it against their opponents to keep the fight exactly where they want it.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 5, 2010 4:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Frankie Edgar is a wrestler. Simply; he uses his wrestling to box. And I don’t mean overhand right to double leg. Think about it.
Georges St. Pierre is predominantly a wrestler, period. His stand up is so obviously based on his ability to take people down that it’s almost blinding. His super effective top game is so obviously based on his ability to maintain positional dominance that, again, it’s blinding. Think about it.
Anderson Silva is a true boxer/muay thai fighter. (recently beaten and soon to be dethroned by a wrestler with strong takedowns and effective positional control, ironically.)
Shogun is a true pure muay thai fighter. (We’ll wait on Jones/Davis.)
Brock Lesnar is a pure wrestler. (We’ll wait on Velasquez.)
There is an an inevitable, unequivocal and absolute dominance of North American wrestling in MMA. And there will be over the next generational period. The top fighters will be wrestlers turned striker hybrids. See Edgar, Koscheck, Rashad, Maynard for current, early hybrid, examples. See Jones and Velasquez for future example.
Disclaimer: I’m not saying every fighter will use this style, nor am I saying there will be anymore of these types of fighter than there are now. But the dominant champions will undoubtedly be strong, athletic wrestlers, who use takedowns, takedown threat, takedown defense, positional control, grappling strength, scrambling ability to set up and employ effectively striking of different varieties. This is the future of MMA, as painful as it is.
We are One.
Sheesh...where to start with this...
I should preface this with the fact (that will become obvious) that I am a huge Rua fan, but…
1). Rua has NEVER faced an elite MMA wrestler, and, aside from the fact that he is a better BJJ guy than AS, and has excellent sweeps, there is no reason to think it won’t look a lot like Sonnen-Silva with a different ending (since Sonnen, for all of his wrestling acumen, lacks many of the required traits to be an elite MMA Wrestler).
Rua has shown himself to be very succeptible to being taken down, and either Rashad or Jon Jones would take him down with ease. Having said that, Rashad’s weakest point in his MMA Wrestling game IMO is his top control, so it is possible that Rua sweeps him at least once. However, Rashad is also a BJJ BB, so Rua submitting him is highly unlikely at best given his MMA Wrestling. Of course, on the feet, this one gets really ugly really quickly for Evans…
To get an idea of how it might play out, one need look no further than what happened with Coleman (both times), who while a great wrestler in his time (and vicious GnP guy), was not remotely on the level of today’s elite MMA Wrestlers.
2). When the poster asked:
Is a BBJ fighter going to beat Rua?
You replied:
But you said maybe a dangerous submission fighter could beat him. Arona was kind a blanket right? We don’t know how Shogun can handle an active submission threat.
He was clearly implying that a BJJ fighter was not going to beat Rua. And I totally agree. Rua has not shown much of his BJJ offensive arsenal in MMA, but if hazy memory is correct, he was a very high level BJJ player several years ago. I know, BJ was too, but unlike Penn, Rua has evolved his game over the years.
3). Same thing applies to the original comment about a striker beating Rua and your reply – he was clearly saying it was not going to be a striker who beat him. IMO, only Anderson could possibly beat Shogun standing, and that is probably the fight I most want to see in MMA right now, although it is unlikely to ever happen.
4). Your closing comparison is disingenuous at best:
Did you have a point other than "If wresters win everything then they’ve won everything!" There’s a better argument that BJJ is still the dominant style. GSP, Anderson, and Shogun are all black belts. Just as many UFC champs with black belts as there are wrestlers.
GSP was a blue belt if not a white belt when he first became champion. Yes, he has incorporated BJJ into his overall grappling game very well, but it is his MMA Wrestling that makes him so dominant.
Rashad Evans is a BJJ BB, Shane Carwin is a purple belt, but no one would ever imagine them to be BJJ guys first. Hell, Josh Barnett is catch wrestler who has a legit BJJ BB without ever having trained at BJJ (it was awarded based on competition merit and overall knowledge).
Barring any rule changes, the elite MMA Wrestlers are the future of the sport…fortunately (for the “watchability factor” critical to continued growth of MMA) this rising group of true MMA Wrestlers will more closely resemble GSP, Jones, Edgar, Davis or Askren than they will Sonnen, Rashad, Maynard and the like…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 5, 2010 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry
Tried posting this once, kept getting “please wait a few seconds and try again, blah, blah, blah” from the site, tried refreshing the page and got a 503 error before opening it in a new tab and pasting it there under a slightly different title…idk wtf is up with the original finally posting…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 5, 2010 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Thankyou
For one of the only sane replies to the original post. There is/will be an inevitable, unequivocal and absolute dominance of North American wrestling in MMA. I hate it, but it’s true.
We are One.
I don't fear it as much as I used to
I am a huge fan of the overall MMA Wrestling game, but the variations of lay and pray, wall and stall and the like were very real threats to the growth of MMA IMO. Whether we like it or not, watchability is important to the growth of the sport.
Having said that, the previous generation of wrestlers is soon to be surpassed by those more like GSP. Edgar, Jones and the like now, but Davis, Askren, Hendricks and the like soon. These are guys who have a very strong wrestling game (and thus the ability to dictate where the fight takes place), but also BJJ and often effective if not always dynamic striking.
These guys are unlikely to receive the sort of complaints that Rashad-Rampage, Kos-Daley or Winner-Lentz generated, except from those who hate the ground game in general.
I think some changes at the officiating level will happen if we get into too many truly “boring” fights, somewhat analageous to the NFL’s “points of emphasis” regarding enforcement of certain rules.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 8, 2010 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions
If only Shogun would had fought a guy with strong takedowns and top control while he was in his first prime (2005) then we might have an idea how it would play out today.
The only relevant part of your comment on a post about the future dominance of wrestlers. Look at it, read it, and think about. You’re talking about Arona and trying to make a point about why wrestling isn’t/won’t be a dominant factor in MMA? Are you OK bro?
We are One.
Inane? 3 of the 5 are wrestlers and yes, GSP is known for his wrestling more than his BJJ. It’s his TDs that control where the fight is going to go.
Anderson next fight is against Sonnen and Rus is fighting Evans.
Sonnen and Evans both win and then all 5 will be wrestlers.
http://mmaandme.blogspot.com - MY BLOG - All about MMA, me and porn!
Ok. Or this.
George Sotiropolous is likely to get a title shot within the next year and hasn’t lost since he fought Aoki, another black belt. GSP is a black belt and uses his BJJ constantly. Anderson and the rest of the top of the division aside from Sonnen are black belts. Shogun vs. Rashad is a battle of black belts. Brock is the only one who doesn’t have a black belt breathing down his neck, but Junior’s brown belt could be all it takes.
Jiujitsu dominates still!
I’m done with this. You can keep slamming your head against the wall with inconspicuous arguments towards anything well thought out or backed up.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Sep 4, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I like your moves and respect your style, but...
Do you think Rashad’s BB is totaly legit. I know it came from a Gracie and everything but still.
When some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head up against the barroom wall, and he looks you crooked in the eye and he asks you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail." - Jack Burton
If by legit you mean that it’s not legit, then it’s legit.
"...I don't want to save the World, I don't even want to save me. We're so boring that we don't event want to save ourselves...There's nothing left to say, we're so fucking boring. Let it die I say. Let there be a new beginning...It's awful. Goodnight"
by dancingChicken on Sep 4, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that's what I meant
When some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head up against the barroom wall, and he looks you crooked in the eye and he asks you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail." - Jack Burton
Not at all.
I guess if I invite Rolles to train with me I can be a Gracie black belt too. For fucks sake, he didn’t even use the training videos and mail in for his belt!
I honestly don’t even think Rashad is a great ground fighter. He has the same issues he had back in college wrestling. He’ll mow you over for the takedown but then goes nowhere from there.
But he has a black belt in BJJ, and it supported my ridiculous argument.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Sep 4, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I see
When some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head up against the barroom wall, and he looks you crooked in the eye and he asks you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail." - Jack Burton
Rashad definitely has a glaring hole in his MMA Wrestling game – he simply does not have dominant top control. Would he be more effective at MW? Most likely, but it may take another loss or two, or Jon Jones taking the LHW title, for that overdue move to be made.
He has a very good chance against Rua, although Rua has great sweeps and is a very good grappler overall, aside from weak TDD. I would like Rashad’s chances a lot more in a 3-rounder than in a 5-rounder against Rua.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 5, 2010 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions
You are shitting me?
You are really going to try and claim that Rashad Evans is more of a BJJ fighter than he is a wrestler? Just fucking LOL!
http://mmaandme.blogspot.com - MY BLOG - All about MMA, me and porn!
If you would use the reply feature it would make your thread way cooler.
When some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head up against the barroom wall, and he looks you crooked in the eye and he asks you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail." - Jack Burton
According to my calculations, it was a sarcasm… so yeah, he’s shitting you.
"...I don't want to save the World, I don't even want to save me. We're so boring that we don't event want to save ourselves...There's nothing left to say, we're so fucking boring. Let it die I say. Let there be a new beginning...It's awful. Goodnight"
by dancingChicken on Sep 4, 2010 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Main skill set? By what definition?
Is a fighter a wrestler by the fact that they started wrestling before any other discipline? Or that they use more wrestling than any other discipline? Frankie may have started wrestling first but he’s clearly more a boxer now, using his wrestling skill set to stand up. GSP is a kyokushin karate fighter since long before his wrestling days. So what, by your definition, are their main skill sets? I can actually see why you would call a St. Pierre, Maynard or Fitch," wrestlers," but Frankie seems more a marriage of convenience.
Simply the fact that their wrestling base
Lets them determine where the fight will take place.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 5, 2010 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions
So he uses wrestling to keep it standing.
He wouldn’t be able to stand if he couldn’t box. Which makes boxing tantamount to his wrestling. IMO, if we’re going to arbitrarily assess value to each “skill set”, I’d say his footwork and lateral movement were his main skill sets. That’s what he uses, most often, to keep the fight standing.
Perhaps the classification you're all looking for
…is MIXED MARTIAL ARTIST.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
Support independent artists
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Against non-wrestlers the footwork and lateral movement helps his boxing to be sure, but against another high level wrestler it alone would be of no more use against them than it is for any other high level striker (think Anderson, how has footwork at least equal to Edgar’s, but is taken down regardless).
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 5, 2010 4:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You’re talking about a largely one-dimensional fighter from a previous generation – a generation that had no one with a skillset remotely comparable to today’s elite MMA Wrestling skillsets.
Even so, for his time, it is a somewhat valid comparison in that he used his elite TDD to keep the fight where he wanted it (standing). The fact that he chose to fight in the way and manner he did rather than using more of his wrestling and BJJ is simply that – a choice.
He largely kept the few other high level (for their eras) wrestlers (Tito, Randy, babalu, Randleman, Monson, etc) he faced where he wanted them – on the feet.
Who knows how things might have played out had he taken down Rampage, Jardine, Rashad, or perhaps even Shogun (more)…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 5, 2010 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Sonnen is a great wrestler who has adapted it well to MMA with very good takedowns and excellent top control, but his glaring weaknesses in improving position/passing guard, weak submission defense and non-existant submission offense keep him out of the highest levels of MMA Wrestlers, and probably out of ever being a champion.
Idk wtf his weird aversion to BJJ is, but if he won’t do that he needs to train catch wrestling with someone like Barnett to have any chance, although this late in his career it probably won’t be enough…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 5, 2010 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm working on a post to supplement my Power Punching list
of the top takedown artists in MMA, by division. Honestly, I think Sonnen may be the most unstoppable offensive wrestler outside of welterweight. Only GSP, Fitch, and Koscheck can compete right now on pure wrestling and top control, IMO.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I think that is a great idea
There is a surplus of guys at WW (GSP, Kos, Fitch, Shields, Askren for starters), but there are numerous guys coming up who incorporated BJJ into their wrestling while they were still amateur (college and even high school) wrestlers, and more coming.
The new-school guys are really the future – GSP already, perhaps Cain, Edgar and a few others who do almost everything well are being joined by the likes of Jones, Davis, Askren, Hendricks, perhaps Story, Bader, Maynard and others…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 5, 2010 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it’s a little soon to include Askren on that list. Unless you want to get caught up in a “Jake Rosholt” esque hype train.
I would take Askren at any decent (+100 or better) odds
Against any UFC WW not named GSP once he has another 2-3 fights under his belt. Same way I would take Jon Jones against any LHW (after his next 1-2 fights) or Davis (after his next 2-3 fights AND after Jones has moved to HW).
Rosholt was a great college wrestler, and decent MMA fighter, but he lacks the BJJ element the new school MMA Wrestlers are bringing (GSP, Askren, Davis, etc).
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 6, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Dear Resident,
Mixed Martial Artists, not wrestlers…
Sincerely yours,
Anton
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 5, 2010 10:31 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
OH NOES! THE WRESTLERS ARE COMING! THE WRESTLERS ARE COMING! LOCK YOUR DOORS! HIDE! RUN! THE WRESTLERS ARE COMING!
Seriously, is this really such a big deal?
Don't like wrestling in MMA? Go watch K-1.
Can't deal with the occasional boring fight? Let me introduce you to ROH.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Sep 6, 2010 7:46 AM EDT reply actions
LW- A wrestler is surely going to be champion in either Frankie or Gray.
WW- GSP might lose to Koscheck and we’d still have a wreslter as champ.
MW- Chael could win the rematch so thats possible.
LHW- We don’t know how much Shogun has left in the gas tank, his knees might be shot at this point. I think he is nearing the end of his career. Rashad Evans is a wrestler and he is next in line for the title so that is a possibility.
HW- Brock Lesnar is unstoppable because he is BROCKLESNAR.
So I could see the UFC being overtaken by wrestlers eventually but everything would have to fall perfectly into place.
MW, with Sonnen’s non-existent submission defense combined with the lack of any elite MMA wrestlers, is the only likely place to stay “free” for the moment. At least until GSP, Fitch, or Shields move up, or Rashad or possibly Davis (if/when he loses to Jones) moves down.
LHW will be Jones soon enough, although Rashad may well beat Shogun before promptly losing to Machida.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 6, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank you………:)
Perhaps I should of asked:
“could all 5 champs this time next year have good wrestling?’
http://mmaandme.blogspot.com - MY BLOG - All about MMA, me and porn!
"New lightweight champion, Frankie Edgar, will make his first defence against fellow wrestler Gray Maynard."
This is the second time I have seen this…he already had his first defense in his second (and consecutive) fight with BJ…does nobody recognize the first fight where he took the belt due to the controvercial decision? I dont get it….He took the belt, then defnded it. This is the second time today I have read about Edgar being the “NEW” LW champion when he already was the champ for the past 4-5 months…
by Opposites Attack on Sep 7, 2010 8:24 PM EDT reply actions
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