Luke Thomas and Jordan Breen Make the Case Against Viewing MMA Through a Pro Wrestling Prism
by Kid Nate on Sep 3, 2010 4:29 PM EDT
in Business of MMA
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This is a little old, but I wanted to cover it on BE. Luke Thomas appeared on the Jordan Breen Radio Show on August 26th and made an argument that viewing MMA through a pro wrestling lens is a mistake. There's been a good bit of response to Luke's comments, most of it focused on his unfortunate decision to insult wrestling fans as a group. There's actually a substantive argument presented on the show and I wanted to present Luke's case (transcribed by Zach Arnold and you can read the whole thing at Fight Opinion):
LUKE THOMAS: "Well, this whole nonsense, this guy's a heel, this guy's a babyface, this is a turnface, this farrago of absolute inane [expletive], shut the [expletive] up. There's a reason I don't watch pro-wrestling. You know why? BECAUSE IT SUCKS, that's why. I don't like FICTION. Thanks. I like sports and I'm not alone. I'm not alone. I mean, listen, are there obvious, obvious familial relationships between MMA and pro-wrestling? Yes, of course, you have to be a buffoon to argue otherwise. From Japan, in America, and the way the UFC has structured it's business and the way in which they promote, yes, of course, of course there is no denying that and you would be really, really dishonest in saying otherwise. But STOP pretending you can distill MMA on pro-wrestling's terms. You cannot. It's real as much that may pain you to think."
...
JORDAN BREEN: "I do find it really interesting, too, that any time there's anything that can be considered a triumph for pro-wrestling in the sphere of MMA, it's used as justification that somehow pro-wrestling is somehow a legitimate entity, like it's a finishing school for something higher. You know, we look at something like Silva/Sonnen and the message taken away is, OH, WELL SONNEN TALKED TO ROWDY RODDY PIPER ABOUT HOW TO CUT TO A PROMO AND HE REALLY LIKED PRO-WRESTLING SO CLEARLY MMA WOULD BE NOWHERE WITHOUT PRO-WRESTLING. ‘Anderson Silva only became great because he got pro-wrestling help from Chael Sonnen. Chael Sonnen got him over, as they say in the business,' ‘eh Luke, ‘eh? ‘eh? ‘eh?"
LUKE THOMAS: "Or the other thing that I love is like, hey is MMA boring? Throw in a little pro-wrestling atmospherics and suddenly it's interesting. Saying or, what was the one that really got me? The one that really got me is the only difference between pro-wrestling and MMA is that MMA is real is like saying the only difference between monkeys and humans is that humans can talk. It's like, uh.... not exactly. I mean, the genetic similarity between humans and apes is 99% but we're pretty different at this point. The branching of the trees is trending away and that's the real critical consideration here. As much as the UFC, in fact, no doubt about it, employed a lot of the WWE's game plan for their growth and their development and their promotion, they're trending towards the sporting audience. That is the audience that they're creating. I know that FOR A FACT. I know that for a fact in meetings I've had with SBNation, they are dying to get more of the actual sporting audience and everybody loves a little trash talk. That's sport-wise, baseball, basketball, everybody loves theater. I mean, my God, in D.C. the theater between Albert Haynesworth and Mike Shanahan, where are your pro-wrestling constructs now, assholes? You know I don't see anybody be like, ‘oh Albert Haynesworth is the typical heel!' You know, that seems to fall away very conveniently in sports they don't pay attention but you could just as easily apply it. But the reality is..."
More from Luke and Breen in the full entry.
JORDAN BREEN: "The reality I think there is that they might try to do it but the real truth is MMA has become the sport for pro-wrestling fans and essentially people who've never liked sports before, so trying to say that if they followed other sports is completely in anathema. They never would, that's why they're so into MMA and I think that the funniest irony for me, you mentioned the UFC trying to follow some WWE business plans, you know, in terms of where they do events, like they're interested in Germany for instance and to me the central irony is people going, ‘Well, you know, it proves that pro-wrestling, you know, it validates pro-wrestling and proves pro-wrestling is worthwhile because the UFC is trying to copy the WWE's playbook!' when really, essentially they're trying to follow a treasure map to gullible, ridiculously easy-to-fool marks.
...
LUKE THOMAS: "That's so much... How much more interesting is human success and fallibility and the contradiction between them and trying to make sense of it all. That, to me, trying to unpack that and make sense of it and roll with it and have fun with it, that to me is so is why sport will always beat pro-wrestling and not to say that pro-wrestling hasn't been hugely at popular. Obviously the 80s were the hey-day, but that... I mean, listen, who is The Rock, right? Who is that guy? Well, Dwayne Johnson is Dwayne Johnson. The Rock is a character and Dwayne Johnson is an actor. It is a human caricature played by a human being. But, to me, Dwayne Johnson as entertaining as some of The Rock's rants may have been when I was 18 years old or whenever, Dwayne Johnson's life is vastly more interesting and you know or even locally, let's take John McCain. I don't care whether you like John McCain or hate him. Here's a guy who was a war hero and also left his first wife for his second for really no good reason, you know this is a guy who has served America for many years, fought for America and was tortured in prison, I mean my God one of the best Americans ever, and you know... kind of just left his family hanging and to me that is the essence of who we are. I am many, I contain multitudes. To me, you know, that is why I enjoy sports so much more. Chael Sonnen, for all his inanity, I bet he's a much more interesting guy than sort of this person he portrayed himself to be and I think if pro-wrestling fans lose that, then you lose part of the reason why sports and our athletes who participate in our sport, THAT is what makes them so interesting."
...
LUKE THOMAS: "Yeah. I would just say that you're only cheating yourself, you know, you're only hurting yourself. You're only giving yourself a very narrow window into a world that I would ask you to believe is significantly more complicated and significantly more interesting because of that complication. You know, you don't have to have final resolution about somebody, you know somebody's either black or their white, and I mean that sort of as a moralistic thing, ah, well they're evil or they're good or they're strong or they're weak. You know, they're much more than that and you don't have to have a satisfying feeling about them being predominantly one or the other. You could just say, I don't know who they really are and I say that all the time about people and that's OK and that's still, to me, vastly more interesting than anything else. And people change over the course of their career. BJ Penn isn't the same guy he was earlier and that's human development that has changed him. He's a father now, he's got lots of money now, he was a two-division champion, you know he's a much different human being than he was before, you know why lose sight of that?"
...
LUKE THOMAS: "Well, I can say this, I don't know pro-wrestling terminology and I think I'm probably a lot more informed because of it."
I'll be back with more on this debate including two very interesting rebuttals from Cage Side Seats, but I wanted to get Luke's case out there in his own words first.
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I think Luke has some valid points
not about the wrestling fan base but about the way terms like “heel” and “face” don’t really work in analyzing MMA in a productive way.
But I also disagree in a number of ways and we’ll get there in part 3.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Wrestling terms are definitely productive in analyzing MMA.
Take the classic Heel face Turn:
The entire reason he won was because his heel impacted his opponents face, turning the lights off.
Guillotine.
by iiowyn on Sep 3, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Wrestling fans
Wrestling fans deserve to be insulted.
by Brent Nahmias on Sep 3, 2010 11:08 AM EDT reply actions 12 recs
The fact that this got rec’ed 5 times is frightening.
Twitter me @kkelchner621
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by Kaleb Kelchner on Sep 3, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 9 recs
MMA fans are just as, if not more, retarded than pro wrestling fans
Most pro wrestling fans know they’re being worked.
You guys just got trolled for 50 bucks a piece by James Toney.to stroke Dana White’s insecurities.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 3, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
anyone who paid for UFC 118
expecting anything but a squash match from Couture vs Toney
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
You got trolled out of money
That match wasnt for anyone that the Sherdog/UG types who are so desperate for mainstream that they cling to every “victory” like the living death. This was their chance to beat boxing.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 3, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I went to the usual bar and paid ten bucks for a show I’d see regardless. I think most MMA fans watched it for LW champ fight despite the unbalanced hype.
But either way, we’re talking for all MMA fans and that seems silly.
Not YOU
But you
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 3, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
No, they didn't.
Most fans did not buy that card for the LW title fight. Most fans will claim they did but the sell job done by the UFC on the Toney-Couture fight worked on a lot of fans who fell for wanting to see the UFC emerge victorious over boxing.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
CagesideSeats.com
Follow me on Twitter at GenoMrosko
Oh goodness
The generally speaking the standard of discourse is SO much higher on Pro Wrestling forums who discuss MMA then most dedicated MMA forums.
All jokes and MEMEs aside
Luke’s right.
I look at it like this, pro wrestling is a hyperbolic reflection of real sports where it’s always extra innings in game 7 of a World Series grudge match. It doesn’t work the other way around where a REAL sport becomes a reflection of pro wrestling.
It’s like all the bullshit bitching and moaning about this Edgar/Maynard fight because both guys are “boring” and won’t talk trash or be all that flashy. If you don’t want to watch it for those reasons then fine, but I’ll be excited for this fight because MMA is a REAL sport and here are two guys at the top of their weight class about to throw down.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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Seems like they always go to the trash talking to compare it to wrestling, but doesn’t that stuff go way back in boxing (and really all sports). There really aren’t heals/faces, just personalities and there are no created storylines.
Most people I watch MMA with follow other sports and none that I know of follow pro wrestling.
All my fight buddies
Are all big pro football fans as well, but you don’t see anyone comparing guys like Ocho Cinco and Terrel Owens to pro wrestling do you?
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
Support independent artists
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Floyd Mayweather has very clearly rebranded himself over the last few years. The transformation from “Pretty Boy” Floyd to “Money” Mayweather was absolutely intentional and based on this exact problem. Floyd may be the best boxer on the planet but being a primarily defensive and “dull” fighter, but his ability to draw an audience really came about from his interview antics. He has made himself into a PPV force through marketing and it is working very, very well for him.
Getting bent out of shape over a fight promoter lying is like getting upset that a hooker won't kiss you. It betrays a deep lack of understanding of the nature of the profession.
trash talking in boxing
has been heavily influenced by pro wrestling. Most notably by Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali being heavily influenced by the wrestler Gorgeous George in his approach to braggadocio and trash talking.
Brent’s series on Theatrics on Combat Sports (part 1 & part 2) is a great reference.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Here's the thing...
…if you want to do your doctoral thesis on viewing UFC 118 in terms of:
- the works of Shakespeare,
- the behavior of howler monkeys, or
- a conversation that you had that one time with the cop who was arresting your for what you did to the mayo dispenser at Arby’s,
…go right ahead. But do so while keeping in mind that your analysis is always going to be flawed and limited by not talking about the subject in terms of itself. Having a bunch of handy analogies pre-built might seem like an easy way of addressing a topic, but it’s never going to be as good as just talking about what happened, and it’s going to limit your discussion to a rather narrow window through which to view reality.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
I agree with Luke
Pro wrestling does suck. I do like fiction. I love it. However, sports and fiction aren’t one in the same, and pro wrestling is shitty fiction. And i want it as far away from the legitimate, respectable sport of MMA as possible. Nowadays, pro wrestling and modern MMA are completely disparate things and i wish Kid Nate and co would stop pretending otherwise.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein"
- Goonisis
by Goonisis on Sep 3, 2010 11:13 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
?
when did i pretend that MMA and pro wrestling were not disparate?
Where I differ from Luke is in my belief that pro wrestling’s extremely sophisticated methods of fight promotion ARE relevant to MMA. Chael Sonnen showed that pro wrestling antics work brilliantly to promote an MMA fight.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
to promote a single MMA fight… but are you saying it’s good for the long-run of the sport?
Getting bent out of shape over a fight promoter lying is like getting upset that a hooker won't kiss you. It betrays a deep lack of understanding of the nature of the profession.
yeah
absolutely. there can be some backlash and also personal costs to fighters who go overboard with their personas (see Mike Tyson and Warmachine), but as a rule, the WWE template for selling fights works year in and year out.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Pro wrestling didn’t invent the protagonist/antagonist relationship.
by Brent Nahmias on Sep 3, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
of course not
but I would argue that pro wrestling perfected fight promotion in the mass media era in the early part of the 20th century and every other combat sport has been following its lead ever since.
The “sports entertainment”/ post-Kayfabe era of the WWE since the 1990s has also brought fight promotion into a very sophisticated post-modernist meta level where the fans are in on the joke to an unprecedented degree.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
If you think wrestling fans are “in on the joke”. You are much more optimistic than basically anyone I’ve ever met.
by Brent Nahmias on Sep 3, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
the fans who read the wrestling observer
and post on the fan sites are in on the joke.
so are the guys i went to high school with who still watch wrestling. I really don’t think any wrestling fans except for the youngest and stupidest are not in on the joke.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Agreed. Everyone’s argument about “dumb wrestling fans” is that they think it’s real. That’s ridiculous. Even the biggest goomba out there knows it’s not. It’s just kids that might still think it is.
http://www.instrength.com
Another thing to point out is that, while it has become something people state as fact, people didn’t believe this shit was real in the 70’s and 80’s either.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Sep 3, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
very true
but the big difference is that in the 1990s the WWE dropped kayfabe and quit trying to convince anyone it was real.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Well…they technically did that in the 80’s but yeah. There’s this idea that when they stopped pushing the idea that it was real so hard was when the audience caught on. No one was watching Baron von Raschke’s offense and going “wow, he’s really giving it to him!”
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Sep 3, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Fun fact: There was a newspaper poll in the late ‘70s-early ’80s in the Carolinas asking if pro wrestling was real or fake. Ole Anderson, the booker for the area’s wrestling territory, though that 90% would say it was real. It turned out to be the exact opposite.
http://www.cagesideseats.com/
by David Bixenspan on Sep 3, 2010 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s the difference between a mark and a “smark” as I understand it.
by BurtBacharach on Sep 3, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
What interests me most about your opinion on the subject is the power that MMA site editors have to decide how much coverage goes to the Kayfabe and how much goes to the actual sport. I abhor “news” about manufactured quotes from Chael Sonnen… but I guess I read them the way I’d take a peak at a car accident as I drive past.
Getting bent out of shape over a fight promoter lying is like getting upset that a hooker won't kiss you. It betrays a deep lack of understanding of the nature of the profession.
we tend to do more of what gets read
except for stuff that we’re just obsessed with like Judo Chops and book reviews. Shit talking ALWAYS gets traffic.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I love fiction mixed in with my sports
Caddyshack & Slapshot were awesome.
As well as The Garbage picking, Field Goal Kicking Philadelphia Phenomenon
I’ve got big walnuts. Gorilla nuts.
by Austin Martin on Sep 3, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Everything that makes an MMA event popular is what makes a pro-wrestling event popular. MMA is built on smack talk and personal rivalries as much as anything else.
You could say that about any sport which is something Luke mentioned as well, and there those comparisons aren’t drawn.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
Rock vs. Hogan at the Skydome… I was there. We were all wrestling fans at one point. =)
by Nick Thomas on Sep 3, 2010 11:15 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
Which is why I don’t think it should be thrown under the bus but I agree with Luke that the comparisons can be a bit much.
I was there too BTW, one of the wildest experiences of my life.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
I just remember Goldberg's initial ridiculous run in the WCW
and my starting to do pushups on chairs because he would do like 1000 on camera backstage.
Oh yeah, and back when DX ruled my middle school
I’ve got big walnuts. Gorilla nuts.
by Austin Martin on Sep 3, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
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That's just great.
Fuck you if you don’t find that entertaining, right Luke?
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
CagesideSeats.com
Follow me on Twitter at GenoMrosko
Looks like fellatio to me.
I want Kim Winslow or Tan Dan to ref Tito Ortiz' next loss.
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Sep 3, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I knew it was fake
but still, watching Jeff and Matt Hardy face Edge and Christian in a Tables, Ladders, and Chairs match seemed like they put everything on the line
"The greatest enemy will hide in the last place you would ever look." - Revolver
by flyingkneetoface on Sep 3, 2010 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
The Bella Twins? Really?
Thought he’d be a Eva mark.
"Respond intelligently even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu
The thing is Prowrestling antics makes everything and anything more interesting (to many). If it gets out of control then we really have a problem on our hands. Then we do lose focus on what the sport is really all about. It would be nice if MMA started creating more of its own terminology rather than borrow from prowrestling.
I agree with some points
But the merchandise arm of the UFC might as well be the merchandise arm of the WWE. You’ve got action figures, video games, fugly shirts, posters, event DVDs, tough dude nu-metal garbage theme songs. At this point I realize that we can look to WWE to see the future of the sport. The fights will still be real but the personalities will be prefabricated and the smack talk scripted, every fighter will have smack talk bullet points given to them during prefight interviews. It’s business first and a sport second.
interesting theory. i hope it doesn’t end up that way. i will say that the NFL merchandising arm absolutely has all the things you mentioned…with slightly less nu-metal. I’d like to think that a better balance will be found between sport and manufactured-drama, but your proposition is possible
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Sep 3, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
The other thing that the UFC did that WWE did was make their name brand more important and bigger than any one fighter/wrestler. I don’t know if the UFC owners/management saw that from WWE and ran with that idea though.
oh they did
Dana modeled the entire Zuffa biz model on the WWE.
everything from the promote on Cable, profit on PPV to the Dana/vince character as the big star and the brand as the biggest name in the game rather than any individual athlete.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Sep 3, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’m curious what % of fans come from wrestling. Definitely not my thing, but there seems to be a lot of cross over fans, specially on the reporting side of it. Is this all because of Lesnar or is it just natural for wrestling nerds to seek their way over to mma?
ive been a fan of mma since
I saw ufc 1 sometime around 1994-95 at the age of 12 or so. My earliest childhood memories are watching wwf. I was at one time obsessed with pro wrestling, right up until 2007 when Chris benoit “benoit’d” his family. The reason I stopped watching was because it started moving away from “wrestling” around 2004 or so, and more storyline. It took a long time to break the stranglehold it had on me.
I’ve also been a fan of mma since the 1st ufc I saw, and was a huge Japanese shoot wrestling fan. What I like about pro wrestling, and what I eventually think most minor league promotions will do, is become what it should be: a show where you can see 2 martial artists demonstrate skills, in an exhibition which will showcase each others move sets/ arsenal.
Tell me:
If you had a chance to watch lyoto machida and GSP have an “exhibition” match, basically like a play, would you not be thrilled to see that?
(I know the 1st response is you would want to see the real fight, but go with me here, that fight will probably never happen)
"Catch Wrestlers don't look for opportunities, we create them" - Josh Barnett
by Submit24 on Sep 3, 2010 11:58 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
and its more
That I’m a catch wrestling mark than a “pro wrestling mark”. I love catch wrestling and still think its the best offensive ground game out there. And its been proven against judo and jiu jitsu and boxing for the better part of 100 years.
"Catch Wrestlers don't look for opportunities, we create them" - Josh Barnett
by Submit24 on Sep 3, 2010 12:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Welcome to Bloody Elbow
Mr. Barnett.
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-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Sep 3, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
nice!
Lol. Its hard for me to say barnetts my favourite after the whole roids fiasco, but I still think he would beat all hvw fighters out there except for Cain v and Brock (especially since brocks been training with erik Paulson)
But ya, barnetts only lost to 3 men in his career and has avenged the rizzo fight (and beat big nog in their 1st)
And I’m sure he would own the shell of a man cro cop is now a days. If only he could make up with dana white, and stop doing whatever the hell he’s doing, and start “playing the game”
"Catch Wrestlers don't look for opportunities, we create them" - Josh Barnett
by Submit24 on Sep 3, 2010 12:35 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Josh Barnett is a bad fight for anyone in the world,
but Cro Cop would still beat him. Somehow. I have no rational explanation for this belief, it’s just a cursed fight for him.
I can’t wait to see Barnett fight again in Japan. If that makes me a bad MMA fan, so be it. He’s a really nice guy and loves chatting with fans. My friend saw him a few months ago and Barnett remembered meeting him three years prior. You can’t manufacture that kind of personality.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Sep 3, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm a big Barnett fan too
and hope to see him fight legit top flight competition again before he’s too old.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Same.
I always feel unprofessional and awkward getting pictures with fighters*, so I pretty much never do it. But Barnett was the exception. I have no idea why. I feel like everybody who hates on him should spend five minutes talking about music and travel with him and they’ll never speak an ill word again.
*Doesn’t bother them at all, I just have a mental block about it.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Sep 3, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d still have a problem with the constant roid use.
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by Derek Suboticki on Sep 3, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
ah
i’d beg to differ.
1) it took place in PRIDE a completely pro wrestling based MMA league.
2) the jiu jitsu vs luta livre rivalry that is the direct ancestor of BTT vs Chutebox began in the “real” pro wrestling era of Brazil in the 1920s, 30s and 40s.
Did you know that Mitsuyo Maeda — the man who taught the Gracies jiu jitsu — came to Brazil as part of his barnstorming on the pro wrestling circuit? This was when pro wrestling bouts were mostly shoots rather than works.
In Brazil the old catch wrestling circuit evolved into the Vale Tudo style of fighting rather than becoming US style worked wrestling.
The Luta Livre fighters who became the biggest rivals of BJJ until the mid-90s, based their fighting style on catch wrestling + no gi judo. See this.
Did you know that Marco Ruas began as a Luta Livre fighter then he added Muay Thai? So there’s a clear tradition that the BTT vs Chuteboxe rivalry came out of that is directly descended from old time pro wrestling.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
“Old time pro wrestling” does not equal “pro wrestling” as it is understood in today’s terms (aka Hulk Hogan and a glorified soap opera)
true
but both MMA and WWE evolved from the old time pro-wrestling. The fake branch is the one that perfected 20th century mass media fight promotion and crowd manipulation.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Didn’t MMA evolve from vale tudo while WWE evolved from Catch wrestling?
And just because Pride held “true” MMA matches on the same card as “worked” MMA matches does not imply that MMA evolved OUT OF pro wrestling.
well if you'll see my comment above
or either of my book reviews of Mark Hewitt’s excellent Catch Wrestling you’ll see that even BJJ would never have happened without Catch Wrestling.
Vale Tudo matches were simply non-worked catch wrestling matches that allowed strikes. They were directly descended from the challenge matches that Maeda came to Brazil to participate in.
On the Japanese side — MMA 100% evolved from pro wrestling. Shooto, Pancrase, RINGs, PRIDE were all attempts to do “real” pro wrestling.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
yup
and I’m right.
Please see:
Catch Wrestling by Mark Hewitt
Catch Wrestling 2 by Mark Hewitt
MMA History I: UFC 1 Pancrase meets BJJ
MMA History III: More on Japan
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
In Japan?
Absolutely.
Beyond a shadow of a doubt.
In Brazil?
It depends on how you define pro wrestling.
yeah
modern mma evolved from the collision of brazilian vale tudo and japanese shoot fighting.
The Brazilian Vale Tudo tradition split off from pro wrestling a long long time ago — I’d say by the 1930s or 1940s — where the old catch wrestling carny circuit died out in the states by the 1960s and started going worked in the 1920s, brazil went vale tudo starting in the 1930s by adding strikes to catch wrestling bouts.
But they were always held in rings, like wrestling bouts until post-UFC.
Also many of the fighters were trained in a variant of catch wrestling called luta livre.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
And you do realize that before there were “worked” Catch Wrestling matches….Catch Wrestling was a REAL sport…
I think you guys are sort of talking about two different things. ThaiGae is arguing about the rules and evolution of the sport. Kid Nate and Steve4192 are saying that if it weren’t for Pro Wrestling, there never even would have been the opportunity for MMA to become a sport.
by BurtBacharach on Sep 3, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Thank you….
Please see:
WIKIPEDIA
“But, from the late 1800s onwards, a sub-section of catch wrestling changed slowly into the sport known worldwide as pro-wrestling, recognized as much for its theatrical antics and entertainment as wrestling ability.[”
AKA…before there was FAKE Pro Wrestling, there was REAL Catch Wrestling
My point is that “real fighting” or “combat sports” existed before “fake fighting” and prowrestling.
absolutely
that’s why it’s getting really complicated because the family tree keeps splitting off and rejoining. In Japan proto-MMA (aka Shooto & Pancrase) evolved directly out of WORKED pro wrestling.
Worked pro wrestling evolved out of catch wrestling in the 1900s — 1930s.
In Brazil vale tudo evolved directly out of non worked catch wrestling.
the two streams met at UFC 1.
But the promotional antics of modern worked pro wrestling also have influenced MMA greatly and do have some utility in helping to understand the business side of MMA.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I can agree with this statement “But the promotional antics of modern worked pro wrestling also have influenced MMA greatly and do have some utility in helping to understand the business side of MMA.”
And leave it at that.
does that imply you differ with the rest?
because I’d be interested in that.
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I do because I disagree with any premise that states combat spots evolved out of “worked” combat spots. I believe Fake Pro-Wrestling evolved out of a Catch Wrestling (real fighting). Fake Pro-Wrestling might have had AN influence on real combat spotrs, but not the ONLY or the MOST important influence.
Furthermore, I believe MMA looks more towards Helio Gracie and his style vs style matches with respect to ancestry instead of Hulk Hogan vs the Undertaker
well you're showing
a good deal of ignorance of your fight history.
because Japanese MMA evolved DIRECTLY and indisputably from worked pro wrestling.
It’s a very direct link from Antonio Inoki’s worked style vs style bouts and his non-worked fiasco vs Muhammad Ali to the proto-MMA leagues like Shooto, Pancrase and RINGs, all of which were formed by students of Inoki.
Now their fighting styles were based on being taught by guys like Karl Gotch who were some of the last living exemplars of the old catch wrestling style. But it’s just not possible to deny that Shooto and Pancrase didn’t grow out of the old “hard-style” worked leagues of 1980s Japanese pro-wrestling.
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and Hulk Hogan and the Undertaker
are completely irrelevant to this discussion.
But Antonio Inoki vs Akram Pahalwan in Pakistan, Willie Williams of Kyokushin Karate, and Olympic judo gold medalist Willem Ruska are very relevant ancestors of MMA.
Inoki was doing the whole style vs style thing, he was just doing them all as works, except for the Ali fight which became a shoot because Ali refused to do a work at the last minute.
Without Inoki, there is no Pancrase, without Pancrase there is no Ken Shamrock. Without Ken Shamrock, the UFC is just a promotional gimmick for Gracie Jiu Jitsu that dies out after 3 or 4 events.
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Big assumption. Just because Ken Shamrock helped bring the UFC some popularity does not mean he was NECESSARY for their success. If Ken Shamrock never was born, there could have been another figure that aided the UFC’s rise to fame.
but it's not about his popularity
it’s about him representing an alternative approach to submission grappling that was a viable competitor to the Gracies.
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Without Shamrock’s submission grappling, there would be no UFC? COME ON.
Your telling me someone else wouldnt have figured out how to beat GJJ ????
I just dont even understand your arguments anymore…
I just don't think anyone else would have been ready
it happened the way it happened so we’ll never know, but without Shamrock there would have been very little intrigue for UFC 3. Instead of selling it as Shamrock vs Gracie it would have been “Watch Royce Gracie mow through another field of chumps and nobodies”.
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and i see you ducked responding to my comment about the lineage of
Japanese mma.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Not at all. Its just alot of verbosity to read at work. Besides, no one knows to this day if Inoki against Akram Pahalwan was a work or a shoot. Inoki broke his arm suggestion it may have been a shoot.
And besides, if Catch Wreslting predates Japanese wrestling witch predates Japanese MMA, I still hold that real combat fighting was the main influence on Japanese MMA, not the theatrics side of pro wrestling.
sure
catch wrestling came first and the 1980s saw japanese pro wrestling evolve back to real fighting based on their awareness of catch techniques and history.
But you can’t just pretend that the worked era never happened or that legends of MMA like Sakuraba, Funaki, Suzuki, and Shamrock never did worked wrestling.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
In Japan, MMA ABSOLUTELY evolved out of pro wrestling.
Long before Pride, it pro wrestlers who founded the sport in Japan. Shooto, Pancrase, & Rings were all founded by pro wrestlers. Without them, MMA in Japan would have never evolved. Plus, Pride was built on the back of pro wrestling. Almost all of their early matches were pro wrestling versus vale tudo.
Didn’t MMA evolve from vale tudo
American MMA evolved from vale tudo, which evolved from a Japanese judoka coming to the Americas to face … pro wrestlers.
Sharpshooter
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by Derek Suboticki on Sep 3, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Sasori-Gatame
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 3, 2010 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions
BS. don’t confuse the WWE for the entire pro wrestling industry and don’t confuse what Hogan was doing 25 years ago for what pro wrestling is today. The soap opera for men aspect has been a part of pro wrestling for generations and don’t ever think that its not a part of MMA or other modern sports now, heck the UFC in it’s current state is built off TUF and one of the most popular sports marketing ideas going is following guys around with a camera during their so called “real lives”.
Should all the terms be used to discuss MMA? No there is no need and yes lots of other sports have similar interactions but you can’t discount the huge impact pro wrestling had and still has on MMA.
by who me on Sep 3, 2010 11:59 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Trash-talk and hype are everywhere. I don’t know why it has to be equated to pro-wrestling, but I think Chael Sonnen started this whole current iteration of this debate by going beyond simple trash-talk to the point of a thinly-veiled, yet successful attempt of crowd manipulation.
There will always be parallels between the sports, as MMA is part of an evolution in the cycle of how full-contact fighting can be marketed. At one point in time, it was determined that the best way to make money off it was to pre-determine the fights and manufacture drama. Now somebody has figured out how to get back to generating interest in legitimate sport-fighting, but hype and drama sell in every sport, look at Rex Ryan, made the Jets the talk of the NFL in 1 year flat.
As MMA continues to overtake pro-wrestling in popularity, and continues to be more extensively covered by mainstream outlets like ESPN, it will develop it’s own terminology and be framed in the context of completely legitimate sport. Don’t underestimate the importance of the general public getting MMA presented to them through the framing of Scott Van Pelt, Stuart Scott et al.
The revolution will be televised. And Luke will be able to relax his socks.
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
Sonnen absolutely did not begin this trend
If anything, I’d credit it in the UFC to Tito
I’ve got big walnuts. Gorilla nuts.
by Austin Martin on Sep 3, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
i said current iteration
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Sep 3, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
hadn’t seen much about this topic for a couple years, and i think it gets more heated as some people’s dreams of seeing MMA truly gain a mainstream foothold come ever closer to fruition
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Sep 3, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
I just think Luke is kind of aggressive sometimes.
/poking bear with stick
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Sep 3, 2010 11:37 AM EDT reply actions
He's trying to be a tweener
The relatively subtle kind, like when Bret Hart was a babyface in Canada and a heel in the U.S. and played them against each other. I wonder if he’s positioning himself to turn Subo face here. If he’s not careful, Subo could totally scoop his heat in the process and take his drawing power along with it.
I nevertheless commend Luke for heeling on wrasslin’ fans by using wrestling’s own tactics, making a very commendable effort at trying to blur the line between kayfabe and shooting.
by Chromium on Sep 3, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I don’t think I can be turned face at this point.
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by Derek Suboticki on Sep 3, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed...
Luke already ran his mouth once insulting wrestling fans… There is really no need for it.
I dont enjoy golf, but you wont hear me insulting golf fans intelligence. Its all about preference… Insulting wrestling fans for enjoying the sport, just because YOU dont enjoy it is like walking in a restaurant and trash talking everyone who didnt order the same meal you did.
I don’t like FICTION
Like, books… movies… etc…? I dont get it. You only watch documentaries? No TV?
I mean, my God, in D.C. the theater between Albert Haynesworth and Mike Shanahan, where are your pro-wrestling constructs now, assholes?
Seriously Luke? Name-calling? That’s weak! In fact, you sound like some pissed off wrestling fan yelling at the fans who dont cheer for your guy.
You know I don’t see anybody be like, ‘oh Albert Haynesworth is the typical heel!’ You know, that seems to fall away very conveniently in sports they don’t pay attention but you could just as easily apply it.
No, no you cant “easliy apply it” here. In fact it doesnt even make sense. Theres this bitch at the gas station i always go to (i mean she is a real bitch), but I wouldnt call her a heel. Ya know why? Because she has NOTHING TO DO WITH WRESTLING! MMA does… face it.
I think Luke went to a wrestling show as a kid and his favorite wrestler turned down his autograph request or something. Theres some strange issues with that dude and wrestling.
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
Proud BElitest.
There’s just no way around the fact that Sonnen’s antics before the Anderson fight were derived from pro wrestling. He was playing a character and doing interviews to sell the fight. And as much as people may want to pretend it didn’t matter, the guy talked to a famous pro wrestling talker on the art of selling the fight.
If the issue is with the desire of all fans to reduce every interaction in MMA to a pro wrestling situation…I’m on board with that.
But there are situations in MMA that are of a direct relationship with pro wrestling and Sonnen’s behavior pre-117 was one of those situations.
I agree that people fall right to the “he’s the heel” “he’s the face” thing much too quickly. But when a guy is playing a character outside of what is normal for him to manipulate the crowd into either liking him more or less for the purpose of selling a fight…that is playing a heel or face. It’s not like the terms “heel” and “babyface” were created by pro wrestling.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Sep 3, 2010 11:43 AM EDT reply actions
I agree with this but I’m not sure Chael Sonnen was doing something “outside of what is normal for him.” I remember him talking serious smack for the last several high profile fights he’s had.
Unless you mean that he’s acting different than his general “real-life” demeanor. Then I totally agree. Met him at the airport in Vegas once and he’s a super nice guy.
by BurtBacharach on Sep 3, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
There’s just no way around the fact that Sonnen’s antics before the Anderson fight were derived from pro wrestling.
Sonnen had a successful tryout in 1998 at the WCW Power Plant and had a standing invitation to go through the longer program to enter WCW upon his completion of college (unfortunately WCW collaped in a titanic heap of insanity and epic amounts of wasteful spending). I believe he also watched Pacific Northwest Wrestling growing up in the territorial days, and obviously knew a thing or two about wrestling and how to best utilize professional wrestling-style hype considering he was probably thinking about a fucking career for several years before WCW went under.
It would not surprise me in the least if he somehow consulted Rowdy Roddy Piper for advice but either way he’s a natural at it.
Wrestling-style heeling and combat sports is not a new thing. Muhammad Ali took some his schtick directly from Gorgeous George and no one can claim it didn’t work for him when he ended up not only trash talking up a mile but also backing it up in the ring. And God bless him for it.
Also, Kid Nate would you mind “distillling” the above article down to just the “valid points against pro-wrestling-style analogies” being used in MMA? Because I’m having trouble seeing it between the wall of hatorizing. No one is saying all or even most MMA fights or fighters can be analyzed that way. I don’t think of Rousimar Palhares as a “face” or a “tweener,” for instance, or Dominick Cruz for that matter. Then again I don’t think about Dominick Cruz very much at all, especially considering he’s a champion and I’m someone who constantly is pushing for the lighter weight classes to get more exposure. He’s kind of boring in the ring compared to Miguel Torres and his epic bouts, to be honest. Maybe Cruz could stand to market himself better. I wonder how he could do that, hmmm….
Looking forward to that. I like the series on this site.
by BurtBacharach on Sep 3, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Can't some of it just be a metaphor?
I believe you can use pro wrestling terms in MMA without necessarily comparing it directly to pro wrestling. A lot of the time when I see people refer to someone turning face or being a heel I think of it more as a metaphor.
I think a good example was Silva vs. Maia. The crowd’s opinion swerved drastically during the match. Anderson was given a huge entrance but by the third round people were chanting for Maia. Silva became a heel in that match. It’s not like it was planned, or he actually was trying to get the crowd to hate him (though you never know with that guy). It’s just a way of putting it that happens to be derived from pro wrestling.
In other words, just by using the terms doesn’t necessarily mean the user thinks MMA validates Pro Wrestling.
That being said, I do agree with a lot of what Luke said and he made an extremely reasonable argument.
I think another distinction is what goes on inside the ring/Octagon and what goes on outside of it. There are a lot more comparisons to be made on what goes on outside the ring/Octagon than inside it (even though the example I provided above is an in-Octagon one, those are much rarer).
Like Luke said on the show, this is a sport. This is a fighter’s livelihood. Most of them (notable exceptions: Anderson Silva, Wes Simms) wouldn’t dream of doing wacky Pro Wrestling antics in an actual fight. Chael Sonnen was a tremendous example of translating a Pro Wrestling tactic successfully to MMA…but you sure as hell didn’t see any of it in the ring. The only comparison you could make was the miraculous comeback ending, but since it was real it makes it infinitely cooler than Hulk pulling it off with the help of Hulkamania.
by BurtBacharach on Sep 3, 2010 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but I heard that the UFC is setting Luke Thomas up for a face turn.
Dave Meltzer said that Dana White is going to grant BloodyElbow media credentials.
The plan is for Kevin Iole to hit Luke Thomas with a chair at the UFC 119 pre-fight press conference.
While I think people on both sides of this argument are acting like idiots I did find Bob Ryan’s thoughts after UFC 118 to be very intruiging.
UFC has borrowed very heavily from wrestling, and why not? Vince McMahon hit upon a winning formula with music and pageantry, and story lines, and there is no reason why it wouldn’t transfer nicely to UFC. There has to be a great carryover fandom. Why would someone settle for the phoniness and absolute idiocy of the wrestling show when you can see better athletes engaged in legitimate combat and still get all of the trappings the WWE has to offer?
Here we have a mainstream sportswriter framing MMA in pro-wrestling terms. He isn’t even deriding them FOR borrowing from PW and genuinely seemed impressed with the way the UFC was presented.
What he didn’t like was the actual sport:
No one can ever say these guys aren’t superb athletes, but that doesn’t mean the sport they practice is the prettiest thing to watch.
Frankly, after watching an evening of UFC, up close and personal, I came away with a better appreciation of boxing.
In the end the biggest stumbling block in converting non-MMA fans is always going to be lack of knowledge. Not some guy calling an MMA fighter a heel or a face.
Wow... Luke's stream of consciousness...
shoots from one thing to the next like a the ball in a pinball machine. Very entertaining…
The extremism of views cracks me up, the reality of this arguement falls in the middle not on either extreme of hating or loving pro wrestling. The connections are well established but so are the differences.
by who me on Sep 3, 2010 12:07 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I think Luke has issues with the pro wrestling terms being brought up in MMA discussions and is projecting that on the whole pro wrestling genre. I also have to believe that there is a bit of PT Barnum involved in all these articles, they do draw attention and discussion.
What is killing me is that the vast majority of people are projecting their personal feelings into these discussions on this. People can’t seem to discuss this without bringing up whether they hate pro wrestling or not. Personal feelings on the connection is really irrelevant to whether the connection exist or not. Of course it does make for interesting/funny conversations.
by who me on Sep 3, 2010 1:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I’m not really a fan of pro wrestling, bit I think its cool that people who like something other than MMA so readily discuss and watch it, its good that pro wrestlign fans like MMA because it gives a slightly different perspective to it.
However, I agree that pro-wrestling parallels are overplayed a lot, such as with Rashad and Rampage. You get 2 guys mouthing off about how much they hate each other, it shares a very superficial similarity to pro wrestling, but its not the same at all really
"The men who get on best with women are those that get on best without them" Lee Christmas
I don’t think Rampage-Rashad is the best example.
Rampage is very much a product of pro wrestling style grooming. The good folks at DSE created the Rampage character almost as much as Quinton Jackson did. Watch some of his pre-Pride fights and you won’t see the ‘Rampage’ character at all. No howling, no trash talking, just a ridiculously talented kid with a cool nickname and not much in the way of skills.
I hate pro wrestling but this gif is just too perfect.
"How do you shoot the devil in the back? What if you miss?"
by DamnSevern on Sep 3, 2010 12:23 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
How has this thread gone on this long without Ric Flair?
by BurtBacharach on Sep 3, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Admit it: You’d all love Dana if he was this nuts.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Sep 3, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
He kinda is
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 3, 2010 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Has anyone here seen the documentary "Wrestling with Manhood"?
I don’t care what history is involved; my vote is to keep pro wrestling’s influence as far away from MMA as possible.
by Manzanillos Cup on Sep 3, 2010 12:51 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Here’s the thing, Luke DOES have valid points. If anything, looking at MMA through the Pro Wrestling goggles should just be a “shits and giggles” thing to do from time to time. Cageside seats can do that well, along with other people. The issue I had, was Luke’s delivery of those points.
It’s like he sat down, came up with a good argument, then let his emotions on the subject distract everyone from the very point he was trying to make.
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SB Nation needs a way to link to specific posts, because it would be a lot easier for me to link to my reply in Cageside Seats last week than to retype it all here.
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MMA writer, USA TODAY
http://mma.usatoday.com
you actually can link directly to the comment
just click on the time stamp for the direct link and then advise clickers to be patient as it’ll take a while to scroll down.
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You can – click on the time stamp next to the commenter’s name…
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by Scott C. Broussard on Sep 3, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
here's Sergio's comment from Cage Side
There’s one very significant, yet very overlooked reason why MMA deserves to be viewed through a pro wrestling lens: THEY SHARE THE SAME MOVES.
With the exception of leg chokes and submissions (triangle choke, omoplata, gogoplata and rubber guard tricks), virtually every technique in MMA was preceded by a pro wrestling analogue. Even the leg stuff arguably could be seen as scissors-hold variations. An americana is just a keylock by another name; a kimura is a chicken wing or a double-wristlock.
In fact, the original point of MMA in Japan was to prove that pro wrestling moves work in the real world, just as the original goal in the USA was to show the effectiveness of BJJ. And the Japanese guys were right — pro wrestling works. Last night in Boston, Joe Lauzon threw down Gabe Ruediger with a belly-to-belly suplex, climbed his back and eventually submitted him with a sleeper hold; Nate Diaz put Marcus Davis to sleep with a front choke.
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Sergio is kind of putting the cart before the donkey here:
virtually every technique in MMA was preceded by a pro wrestling analogue
Is fairly ludicrous. Those pro wrestling moves are preceded by the real techniques that spawned them.
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 3, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Pro wrestling wasn’t predetermined in the beginning.
Sergio Non,
MMA writer, USA TODAY
http://mma.usatoday.com
Can we call it something else then? People seem to be arguing past each other when comparing the two activities without historical context.
Alright, think of it this way: the only difference between fighting and fake fighting is that one is fake. Other than that, they’re the same thing.
It’s not as if this is the only situation where you have exhibition and competition sides of the same coin in martial arts.
Keiko Fukuda is a 9th dan judoka, last living student of Jigoro Kano. She only does katas; in other words, all she does is performance, she has never proven the actual effectiveness of her skills. Yet her judo is in the same realm as Satoshi Ishii’s; different aspects of the same thing.
Sergio Non,
MMA writer, USA TODAY
http://mma.usatoday.com
Pro wrestling has been predetermined well before most people think it was…besides I think when we discuss pro wrestling not many guys are talking about Frank Gotch (who was a worker anyway)..
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 3, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Nonetheless — today’s WWE workers are direct descendants of the Farmer Burns/Hackenschmidt/Frank Gotch lineage, as are today’s MMA fighters. They’re just different branches on the same tree.
Sergio Non,
MMA writer, USA TODAY
http://mma.usatoday.com
I think Luke covered this pretty well.
The one that really got me is the only difference between pro-wrestling and MMA is that MMA is real is like saying the only difference between monkeys and humans is that humans can talk. It’s like, uh…. not exactly. I mean, the genetic similarity between humans and apes is 99% but we’re pretty different at this point. The branching of the trees is trending away and that’s the real critical consideration here
Except that the differences between humans and simians is far greater. A chimpanzee will never be able to use human speech — a pro wrestler can apply any move used in MMA.
Sergio Non,
MMA writer, USA TODAY
http://mma.usatoday.com
So which active Pro Wrestlers without a martial arts background could come over and legitimately compete in MMA now? They are great acrobats and mimes but where do actual combat skills make a difference in these comparisons?
Barnett’s still active in both. So’s Dan Severn.
“Severn was a freestyle wrestler!”
Yes. And freestyle wrestling itself is directly derived from pro wrestling in the early 20th century.
Sergio Non,
MMA writer, USA TODAY
http://mma.usatoday.com
Maybe here’s the divergence. Having a history in competing with martial arts (I’m including wrestling of the different types) is different than miming those martial arts. I’m not disputing the lineage but rather the relevance of modern Pro Wrestling to modern MMA.
You can come into MMA and get by on pure athleticism and learn on the job
Black MMA fighters did it for a while. maybe not high level ones, but it can be done.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 3, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree, but ONLY because Maeda just happens to be the judoka that taught the Gracies. Otherwise, most MMA fighters would have a very limited connection to pro wrestling, if any at all.
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 3, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Without repeating all the stuff that Kid Nate went into further up in this thread — the Gracies aren’t the only source of MMA. In Japan, modern mixed martial arts only exists because of pro wrestling.
Sergio Non,
MMA writer, USA TODAY
http://mma.usatoday.com
I don’t need to read what Kid Nate posted. I know this material intimately. You said today’s MMA fighters are directly descended from pro wrestling. For many, that’s completely untrue. And it is only true in many cases because of the connection to the Gracie family. Their connection to pro wrestling exists, but is weak.
Most fighters are schooled in Gracie Jiu Jitsu. The number schooled in catch wrestling is ever shrinking. We’ve seen pretty clearly which works better.
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 3, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Not saying you don’t know it, it was for the general reader to point them to Nate’s stuff earlier in the thread.
I’m not sure I get the notion that it’s a weak connection because, at least on the BJJ side, it all traces back to one guy who was a pro wrestler. That one guy is really important — in terms of lineages, if not actual accomplishment, he’s the Man O’War of BJJ.
Sergio Non,
MMA writer, USA TODAY
http://mma.usatoday.com
Assuming he developed in a vacuum. If we traced it back far enough we’d be staring Cain and Abel in the face. Maeda, certainly, learned the vast majority of what he passed on to the Gracie clan from Kano. We know this because of the copious written works on the development of judo and how closely BJJ compares to these texts.
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 3, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
What does "working better"
have to do with it not being related?
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 3, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
It doesn’t. It explains why almost no one trains catch wrestling and millions train BJJ worldwide.
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 3, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I think a lot of that has to do with marketing
and the fact that Royce beat Ken at UFC 1.
Had Sakuraba had a marketing machine in the States to sell his techniques and system it would be a very different world.
And as we see more and more wrestlers coming into MMA, I think catch wrestling techniques will only increase in their applicability to MMA. Fighters are going to need more and more submissions from the kinds of top control positions you get into from wrestling scrambles and less from the guard.
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UFC 1 was an infomercial
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 3, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
almost all the judoka who were active in the US, Europe and South America
before WWI were there accepting challenge bouts — generally with wrestlers — to promote the Kodokan. So no matter who taught the Gracies, it would’ve been someone involved in the catch wrestling circuit unless they went to Japan.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Many judoka may have done challenge matches. That doesn’t make them pro wrestlers. Maeda is a pretty special case. That was his vocation for some time.
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 3, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I read his first book and interviewed him while he was working on book 2!
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 3, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah. I was excited to talk to him about it!
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 3, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
reporters and their opinions being the story?
Especially in the case of Luke and his deep-seeded embarrassment of his time in love with pro wrestling.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
Uh, if you remember
I expressed the EXACT same sentiments in Subo’s article.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 3, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
My Question?
How much weight did Dana cut for that photoshoot?
Answer: He didn’t cut any. He got Photoshop-liposuction
That is pretty standard for Men's Fitness
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MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Sep 3, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Dana actually did work to get in shape for this issue.
I recall reading that he dropped somewhere in the vicinity of 25 lbs over several weeks to prepare. Still, he is photoshopped to high hell. Looks like Jason Statham.
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by pdl on Sep 3, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
There's a lot of info about wrasslin roots
and a sort of “it’s put to bed” arguments that it is the source of wild promotion, but that’s completely ignoring the golden age of pro boxing.
Before Gorgeous George, there was the yellow journalism build-up of Joe Louis and Max Schmeling, including Louis “dolls” (action figures), and tons of promotional crap sold, the comics of Joe Palooka, the antics ot Two-Ton Tony Galento, Jack Johnson tooling around in his Mercer convertible with white women and taunting and “carrying” his opponents to inflict more punishment, and knowingly solidifying his “uppity” and savage image, John L. Sullivan bragging “I can lick any sonofabitch in the house!” (a saying that was as well known back then as “Float like a butterfly” is now) and much much more.
Ali may have borrowed GG’s persona, but that self-promotion and heightened personality schtick was going on in the fight game WAY before Gorgeous.
I didn't know GG was the first pro wrestler
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 3, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah. He was the only one
Didn’t you know that?
/sarcasm.
Name a wrassler who was earlier and even as close as outrageous as Jack Johnson, who did things that literally could have had him killed in many states.
I didn't know that drinking, partying and liking white women
was a gimmick. That was just who the n-word was.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 3, 2010 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Regarding pro wrasslin, I think we can all agree on this: Bad News Allen would’ve made Brock Lesnar his bitch.
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by Derek Suboticki on Sep 3, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Paul Orndorff says "No"
Even though Paul sucker punched him.
Now Haku, there’s the dude who needed to be in MMA.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 3, 2010 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
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by Geno Mrosko on Sep 3, 2010 6:45 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
That’s top shelf
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Sep 3, 2010 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I was a pro wrestling fan...
When I was about 9. I find it hard to imagine there are this many grown ass men out there who not only watch pro wrestling, but feel the need to equate it to MMA every chance they get, then argue endlessly about it on forums.
by Anton Chigurh on Sep 3, 2010 8:04 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
My thoughts exactly
Loved it when I was a kid and far be it for me to knock anyone that still watches it but I don’t understand the appeal at all for anyone over the age of 12. I’d equate it to Magic, D&D and the like, just a phase that one goes through.
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It's almost as hard to believe
that there are grown ass men out there that enjoy watching two other grown man beat the crap out of each other. Talk about lacking maturity.. I am included! ultimate fighting!
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