Eat a Knee Mother F%#ker!
by Warhand on Sep 29, 2010 1:40 PM EDT
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So, you are getting sick and tired of "Lay & Pray" wrestlers in the UFC. You are not alone in dreading a UFC full of champs who are really good at taking their opponent down and keeping them there with good wrestling while doing just enough soft ground and pound to keep the ref from standing the fight up. What can be done to thwart this? Ivan Trembow is about to "face palm". It is time to allow knees to the head of a grounded opponent. I know that spinal injuries are a real drag but I seriously wonder what evidence there is that spinal injuries will increase if "Pride Knees" are allowed. Is there a laundry list if ex-Pride fighters with spinal injuries?
If a fighter with a strong wrestling base suffers no consequence when he fails to take his opponent down then why stop? If that same fighter shoots in for a take down, fails, and ends up eating 3 or 4 knees to his head and face while he is on his hands and knees he might not be so careless with his next attempt, if he survives. There are a lot of examples where fights would have had a completely different end had "Pride Knees" been legal. One recent fight I think of is Sonnen vs Marquardt. At the end of the 3rd round Marquardt gets on top of Sonnen in North South and lifts his knee for a fight ending strike but may not deliver the blow.
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I actually have a similar stance. Once MMA is legalized and sanctioned in every state, they should work on updating the rules to allow for this. Having a rule set more similar to Pride will make the fights more exciting. People will start liking the ground game more.
Hard core MMA fan since UFC 99
pride is gone man, never coming back.
let it go.
by kanodogg on Sep 29, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
They should have fixed fights and lopsided matchups and shady refs too
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 29, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No
Just the knees to the head of a grounded opponent.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
by Warhand on Sep 29, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Agreed
People need to be serious and not sarcastic about this. Poster just making a valid point. Knees should definitely be utilized as a take down counter measure to add to the dimension of the sport. Nobody even said bring back Pride just cited the former promotion allowing knees. Ufc has elbows which seem to smash orbital bones easy and cut fighters all the time but knees are forbidden? If I had my way there’d be knees and yes even soccer kicks to the head because that’s a part of fighting. The ref is still there, the cageside doctors are still there, the cornermen holding white towels still there to throw them in. Being an mma fan and having seen live knees to the head and soccer kicks and then being denied them is like a chick giving you the backdoor early in the relationship just to deny it throughout the subsequent marriage. It’s bullshit
"That little fucker hit me with a Hadukan or something" – Nick Diaz on Gomi
"You should study Pokemon to get stronger." - Sakuraba
"A champion is someone who sweats to exhaustion, even when no one else is watching." -Bas Rutten
by Pillow Pants on Sep 29, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Go on with your bad self boi!
BTW
Did anyone else see the CRAZY knee Jon Hathaway Landed on Diego “Sweet Dreams” Sanchez?
Cause honestly that was vicious.
And i respect everyone’s opinion but the SMARTEST thing i have seen so far in the reply column is the first post.
@Chicubs23……MJ rules. and so did your post. That stuff is too violent for mainstream american right now. Why? Man I dunno. Why did Teddy Roosevelt give a speech in Milwaukee immediately after he got shot in the chest? I mean really? Who gets shot in Milwaukee?
Answer: American’s Nutz!
Jackie Treehorn treats his objects like women, man.
by soulrebel5447 on Sep 29, 2010 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Sheesh
I’m not asking for Pride back. I wasn’t even a fan until after the buyout (note the sig, it’s true). Would you deny that a Pride rule set would make fights more exciting? We wouldn’t have to listen to all of this “wrestling is killing the sport” bullshit anymore.
Hard core MMA fan since UFC 99
by ChiCubs23 on Sep 29, 2010 4:06 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The first step is to properly define what a grounded opponent is
I was pissed at Dunham’s cheapass tactics against Sherk. How is it that your defense against knees is based off of your ability to touch the ground with your fingers?
by Mint on Sep 29, 2010 1:57 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
not the first time we've seen that
and it won’t be the last. I don’t blame the fighter (much) because being kneed in the face is an outcome to be avoided by any legal means. It’s gamesmanship, but it’s 100% within the rules.
Even if they were to keep some form of the rule, maybe it should be no knees to the head of an opponent whose torso is touching the ground, rather than fingertips.
I’d be happy to see that rule go away altogether.
I consider myself a softcore fan.
NO KNEED
"How do you shoot the devil in the back? What if you miss?"
by DamnSevern on Sep 29, 2010 2:11 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Not to mention that the aforementioned “lay and pray wrestlers” would be provided with another option that would help them stop lay and praying
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Sep 29, 2010 2:17 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Indeed
This will help wrestlers, not thee guys being wrestled like Warhand is suggesting. How often does a wrestler go for a takedown with a hand or knee on the ground?
well, a proper shot should have some very temporary knee-to-ground contact
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Sep 29, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
The knees help the “sprawler” when the wrestler fails to complete the takedown and is on his hands and knees in front of his opponent. As it stands right now, a fighter can shoot in for a takedown, fail and keep a knee on the ground with no “real” consequence. Sure the sprawler can go for a guillotine or throw some punches but these don’t do the type of damage that would discourage lazy shots the way knees to the head and face do.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
how often does a wrestler wind up on their hands and knees after a failed shot??? First of all this is assuming they won’t get the TD but even if they didn’t I don’t think I’ve ever seen that happen. This won’t stop LnP in any way.
I believe
It happened with Hendo – Anderson as well, although it didn’t start as a shot attempt.
This definitely helps stop LnP, if for no other reason that it gives the guy on top more ways to finish.
Think about the situations where Fitch could have really cracked some guys (if you were awake)…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 29, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
The sprawler has no freedom to even fire a knee
If it was a double leg, then the wrestler’s head is in contact with the sprawler’s body, making knees useless. Put a soccer ball on your crotch, stomach, or obliques and try to knee it. You can’t. If it was a single leg, the wrestler’s inside arm is protecting his head from the sprawler’s free leg.
The opportunity to knee is during the shot. Marquardt did this against Sonnen, but he has a thick skull so he ate it and proceeded with the takedown. It’s not going to help sprawlers, and if anything they’ll just wind up on their back if they try because they have to lift a foot off the ground to attempt the knee.
If a guy is crawling around on his knees, like Koscheck against Daley just before he “faked” getting kneed, then the best strike is an accurate punch. It’s a rare situation anyway.
Debatable ^
Dude.
I HAVE SPRAWLED on people.
I dunno if you have or not.
But seriously, if it worked out in the picture perfect way you are talking about.
I would have choked out every opponent in a front headlock in high school and then pinned then… A LA MATT HUGHES v Almedia
But…
A. Choking is illegal in folkstyle
B. You don’t want be to rip you fantasy land a new A@@hole with B dude.
no offense
Jackie Treehorn treats his objects like women, man.
by soulrebel5447 on Sep 29, 2010 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions
But basically
It DOESN"T ALWAYS WORK OUT THAT WAY.
dude…
Jackie Treehorn treats his objects like women, man.
by soulrebel5447 on Sep 29, 2010 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I think what mint is trying to say...
Is when the “sprawler,” in turn uses his speciality, the sprawl.
He becomes god.
Or at least enlightened
Jackie Treehorn treats his objects like women, man.
by soulrebel5447 on Sep 30, 2010 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions
franca showed an excellent example of this in the sherk fight
3 times i believe
ufc fan boy all the way
by georgehouse on Sep 29, 2010 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it helps both sides, and increases the likelihood of a finish as well – a win all around.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 29, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I had a thought about this today...
…as an interim measure, how about allowing knees to the head when the downed fighter’s knees are off the mat? So in other words, it would be legal to knee an opponent who was posted solely on his hands and feet. Knees to the head would still be illegal if the opponent was prone/on his knees/on his back. I figure this would prevent the ‘hand on the mat’ trick while still avoiding Arona-Sakuraba type situations of guys getting destroyed in hard-to-escape positions. A fighter on his hands and feet has the option of either dropping to his knees (disallowing knees but accepting an inferior position) or looking to wrestle his way out of the position. Basically I just want to not see fighters doing the hand on the mat thing which to me is hiding behind the rules somewhat.
"With gold thou boughtest Gýmir's daughter,
and so gavest away thy sword:
but when Muspell's sons through the dark forest ride,
thou, unhappy, wilt not have wherewith to fight."
~ Lokasenna
This is pretty much my take as well, though I’d add in that knees down are not enough either. If you want to avoid the knees, you should have to give up position and be prone…either on your back or facedown. And the only other restriction strictly forbidding any knees to the top and back of the head, to protect the spine from compression.
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Sep 29, 2010 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh yea that's cool...
Give the refs AND fighters another way to f*ck up?
Naw dude.
NEXT!
Jackie Treehorn treats his objects like women, man.
by soulrebel5447 on Sep 30, 2010 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions
“Give the refs AND fighters another way to f*ck up?” You mean like trying to see if a guys fingernails are touching or not touching the canvas at the exact instant a knee connects? Hell of a lot more straightforward my way…
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Sep 30, 2010 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe...
Maybe.
Jackie Treehorn treats his objects like women, man.
by soulrebel5447 on Sep 30, 2010 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions
I do agree that our current refs and judges would fuck it up of course…
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Sep 30, 2010 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I wasn’t so concerned about the knees-down/turtle position because the attacking fighter still has other options from their so the defender isn’t gaining a particularly unfair advantage by being safe from knees: he can still be kneed in the ribs, have his back taken, etc… Whereas both these attacks are difficult to execute when he’s in the “standing with hand on the mat” position.
"With gold thou boughtest Gýmir's daughter,
and so gavest away thy sword:
but when Muspell's sons through the dark forest ride,
thou, unhappy, wilt not have wherewith to fight."
~ Lokasenna
Yeah, there’s different takes on it, though I’m in favor of allowing more strikes on the ground in general. I guess a less sweeping change is just to require both knees on the mat in that spot to avoid the knee to the face.
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Sep 30, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Elbows alone are kind of brutal.
AND there are RESTRICTIONS on elbows to the head. See Jone Jones vs. Matt Hamill.
KNEES to the head of downed opponent = BRUTAL
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WORD
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
Unintelligent Defense oh yea, I'm blogging now too.
Oh come on, Saku gets up in the morning looking like that…
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Sep 29, 2010 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions
If only Ishida or Ishii were allowed to use knees last weekend.
"How do you shoot the devil in the back? What if you miss?"
The biggest problem I see with knees like this is that it will slow or stop MMA from going mainstream. I think a lot of people that might be okay with MMA as it stands now wouldn’t be with knees to the head of downed opponents. I personally would rather see MMA get bigger and as a result draw even better athletes and more talent than to see knees to the head of downed opponents.
I'm gonna give you three seconds; exactly three-fucking-seconds to wipe that stupid looking grin off your face or I will gouge out your eyeballs and skull-fuck you!
I can't see this at all
How many casual fans even know the rules? (I’ll give you a hint: it hovers around 0). No one’s going to suddenly stop watching because someone got kneed in the head while their hand was touching the ground.
"There's this image that you have, this interior image of something that's absolutely perfect, and that's your signpost, your guide. And you'll never get there. But without it you'll never get anywhere."
I don’t really see it as them knowing or not knowing about the rules. I see it more as shit like the picture a few post above happening and people who could have been brough over would suddenly see it as the brutal brawl it is often portrayed as. Another thing is that I do see it as a potential step to more deaths in MMA as a result of fractured skulls. I am no doctor but it also seems like a very good way to have some severe neck trauma.
I’d be happy too see knees to grounded opponents otherwise because I honestly think it would help wrestlers more than it would hurt them.
I'm gonna give you three seconds; exactly three-fucking-seconds to wipe that stupid looking grin off your face or I will gouge out your eyeballs and skull-fuck you!
This should've been legalized yesterday
The only obstacle is that the athletic commissions are stupid. This is the obstacle to a lot of things.
"There's this image that you have, this interior image of something that's absolutely perfect, and that's your signpost, your guide. And you'll never get there. But without it you'll never get anywhere."
See the aforementioned discussions on how it might actually help the wrestler more than the sprawler
There’s a GIF around of John Hathaway I think kneeing Diego Sanchez FIERCE when he tries to drop down for the shot. Better timing and distance might be able to help support the already-legal head knees to a “non-grounded” opponent. (A better definition of grounded would be nice too.)
Like...
Good Judging?
Jackie Treehorn treats his objects like women, man.
by soulrebel5447 on Sep 29, 2010 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I want the knees brought back, particularly in takedown, takedown defense, or front headlock type positions. As long as they’re not to the back or spine I don’t think it’s more dangerous than anything else. You could also just define grounded as having 3 points on the ground. At least then you have to give up position to avoid the knees. That Evan Dunham touching the mat stuff was absolutely ridiculous. Smart, but ridiculous. I’m less thrilled with the north south position knees, where one guy is on his back, controlled and eating knees to the top of the head. Those I can see being a bigger problem, as you’re compressing the guy’s spine, and there’s nowhere for the momentum to disperse except right down through the spinal column.
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Sep 29, 2010 11:19 PM EDT reply actions
i think it would still be too brutal for USA
granted the griffin/bonner fight was bloody, but it was the first and it was a finale to the TV show, so it had some point or culmination if you will. Imagine multiple fighters in america getting bloodied on national TV. i think it would peak with interest, then decline over time with the theme of violence is brutal.
ufc fan boy all the way
How about kicks to the head when both fighters are down?
I understand the argument against knees on the ground, they can be incredibly damaging. However, I can’t see any reason not to allow kicks to the head when both fighters are down. You can’t do the sort of damage that knees to the head do but it would give fighters another option from the guard and a possible defense against lay and pray.
I’d much rather get kneed than kicked in the fucking head while I was down. Think about the impact a hard kicker could get if they landed shin to skull. That could kill somebody especially if they were in a position where the head couldn’t give. I think upkicks to a guy who was postured up in your gaurd would be fine, but no full on head kicks.
I'm gonna give you three seconds; exactly three-fucking-seconds to wipe that stupid looking grin off your face or I will gouge out your eyeballs and skull-fuck you!
hard to get huge power from both fighters being grounded
Forever indebted to CroCop's left leg for getting me into MMA
by Well Read Idiot on Sep 30, 2010 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions
That would be really hard to do while on the ground
I think you’re arguing against soccer kicks, something we’ll never see legalized in the U.S and definitely not what I’m talking about.
True
If they were both grounded it could work.
I'm gonna give you three seconds; exactly three-fucking-seconds to wipe that stupid looking grin off your face or I will gouge out your eyeballs and skull-fuck you!
Everything should be legal
Except biting, scratching, fishhooking, pulling hair, eye gouging. I’d make shots to the nuts legal. I’d make spine-torquing legal. Knees to the head. Stomps on the face. Bending the fingers back til they break. Make it all legal. Fuck, I’d even have weapons around the cage they could grab; maybe a feral beast which could feast on them if they get too close. Are you not entertained?
"You stick a microphone in a guy's face and he calls out anybody but the champion, and Joe Silva should fax him a pink slip right then." -- Chael Sonnen.
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