Oscar De La Hoya Suggests Boxing Would Benefit From UFC Model
by Brent Brookhouse on Sep 29, 2010 12:13 PM EDT
in UFC Editorial
Email
Print
Oscar De La Hoya recently spoke on what he felt would be a very positive step for the future of boxing suggesting that having one promoter controlling the majority of fighters would make the sport more accessible to the public:
"We are very transparent with whatever we do with our fighters, and in a way, yes, we do want to take over," De La Hoya continued. "Well, we don’t want to take control of boxing but we want to do the right thing for the sport. Have one (organization) running it like UFC. It’s very confusing with all these championship belts-my idea would be to have one champion in each division. There should be one heavyweight champion, not 20 like we have have now. Too much confusion. We have to weed out the bad and bring in the good."
Absolutely there is more to what Oscar is saying than simply what he thinks is best for the sport. Oscar has been in public for a little while now claiming that this single organizational structure is not only what boxing needs (which is hard to argue) but that Golden Boy Promotions should be the "single organization" in question. Not to mention that by being out front on this topic it makes Oscar come across as the one promoter who is looking out for the good of the sport long-term.
Of course, any long time reader of our site is aware that I am a lifelong boxing fan. And certainly I don't want to spend too much time focusing on boxing here but the above linked article on Boxing Dispatch has some solid information that really should allow us to reflect on the current promotional model for MMA (the UFC in specific) and come to a better understanding of how and why things work.
Such as this piece by Michael Woods about his recent talk with Dana White on The Sweet Science:
I spoke to White on Monday morning (see ESPN piece here: sports.espn.go.com/extra/mma/news/story) and he again mentioned the possibility of cutting a well known veteran, the former heavyweight champion Frank Mir, who, save for a last minute knee-from-hell which dropped foe Mirko Cro Cop, looked like he was getting in some work at the gym during the main event of UFC 119 in Indianapolis on saturday night.
Would he consider cutting Mir, I asked him?
"Sure," he said, without a second of hesitation.
Not so in boxing. Imagine Bob Arum, Richard Schaefer or Don King being so disgusted after a poor PPV showing that they publicly threatened to dump the headliner. Now, before you jump in with a comment telling me that I am comparing apples and oranges, let me state that we are somewhat comparing apples and oranges. White and UFC are MMA, while boxing is comprised of a load of free agents, jockeying and shoving each other to gain better position. So if Schaefer told the media after Shane Mosley's last fight that he though SSM had seen better days, and a few days later Schaefer cut him loose, the day after, another promoter would take Shane on, because he's still bankable. White's sole interest is the sport, because UFC is the sport. Because 95% of the top athletes in MMA are working for him, he can toss one overboard if he's not living up to expectations, and his bottom line won't tank.
Now, I don't think anyone really takes White seriously in this case. He isn't cutting Frank Mir any time soon. The fight with Mirko Filipovic was a bad one, there's no way around that but Mir still has far too much value to the UFC to be in any danger of getting cut. But the UFC is bigger than any single fighter and that allows Dana to be out in the public threatening to cut any under-performing star from Anderson Silva to Frank Mir.
The current promotional model of MMA has allowed the UFC to become a basically untouchable force. Any fighter who they choose to let go becomes stigmatized with the "UFC washout" label which diminishes any future accomplishments and actually damages anyone they beat to an unreal degree. Fedor Emelianenko wasn't just beat by Fabricio Werdum, he was beat by Fabricio Werdum...a guy who couldn't cut it in the UFC. Without the UFC blessing your worth is much, much lower and that affects you, your opponents, the promotion you fight for and so on. This isn't ultimately the worst thing in the world as it gives fighter careers an ultimate destination. Any fighter with any sense is fighting to get to the UFC and eventually to become UFC champion. There is a clear, linear path to the top rather than boxing's muddled system where a man like Manny Pacquiao only holds 1/4 of the major titles in the division in which he last fought.
This control has, obviously, been largely a positive for the sport and its fans even if there are some aspects that can occasionally make one uncomfortable. And this is something that a boxing promoter like Oscar De La Hoya has to drool over. Even Bob Arum, who called Oscar "pathetic" and "dumb" for suggesting the UFC model, would be lying through his teeth if he said he didn't want their biggest shows to be driven by the Top Rank name rather than being driven by Manny Pacquiao. Unfortunately for boxing things are too established the way they operate currently and there is too much money for the top individuals to ever see things shift to where a new model is followed that favors the long-term growth of the sport vs. the short-term gains of a small handful. As long as over the long-term we start to see fighter salaries go up as promotional profits rise, the UFC model has proven to be the best thing going in combat sports.
127 comments
|
2 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
There are some negatives
just like there are the negatives of having the UFC be the only major promotion, the one thing that’s certain is it is better for the sport.
Boxing really does need this, no more alphabet belts, let’s have some real undisputed champions who can fight quality opponents please.
I apologize for my never-ending assault on the English Language. I feel like Qui the promoter from Jade Empire...
The major promotion works for football, basketball and baseball . . . NBA, NFL and MLB. Those organizations are synonymous with their sports like Google is to “search” and Xerox is to copy.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Sep 29, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
It just sounds wrong to say I “binged” justin bieber
by Lunatic-Fridge on Sep 29, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
You’d rather say I “googled” Justin Bieber? That sounds messier than “binged.”
by FragglesHateKos on Sep 29, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Absolutley
UFC=MMA
Boxing=???
That needs to be remedied.
I apologize for my never-ending assault on the English Language. I feel like Qui the promoter from Jade Empire...
no it doesn't.
Let boxing die even more, it will only being more promising young athletes to MMA.
Just like how some football prospects are moving to heavyweight MMA.
The more the UFC can grow the more it will being in top prospects that would have gone to other sports.
Sounds like you want to kill off boxing. Not everyone wants to train muay thai and wrassle.
by Krimson on Sep 29, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I would love for boxing to die off. It sucks.
I’d rather see a promising young athlete go to MMA.
by 79guy on Sep 29, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You can argue that MMA is no worse than other contact sports for long-term damage. You cannot argue that boxing, a sport that requires you to punch the other guy’s head and bans most intelligent defenses (ie takedowns, kicks to neutralize punching power etc) is in the same league. Moving from boxing to MMA will be safer for fighters. I just hope MMA’s paychecks catch up with boxing’s paychecks soon.
"I'd love to be a Cheick Kongo looking brother that could actually move and do a lot of funky stuff - Jiu Jitsu, takedowns, kicks and stuff." - Jon Jones.
"This is the internet: you either have soul-stopping power or you’re a pillow-fisted pansy. There is no middle ground." - woomikee
I think the paychecks of some of these boxers is one of the main reasons boxing is in trouble. You have HBO paying huge money to someone like Andre Berto for years, despite Beter never showing himself to be any sort of draw whatsoever, and he winds up thinking he’s worth far more than he really is. And the number of fights held up just this year alone in boxing over money is surreal.
After a really quick skim I saw this . . .
White’s sole interest is the sport
Yes, I’m laughing.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
it's the part right after that matters
because UFC is the sport
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Sep 29, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
meaning...
that White cares about what matters to the UFC
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Sep 29, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I remember when he would often talk about the best fighting the best.
Well at least he now has Shields and can totally ignore Dan Henderson.
“I beat that guy.” – Dan Henderson talking about his ’06 fight against Vitor Belfort when negotiating a new contract that never materialized with Zuffa. The response he got was more or less “oh . . . yeah, ok.”
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Sep 29, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t mean to paint an overly pretty picture of White and the UFC with this piece. But in comparison to boxing (a sport I deeply love but is broken promotionally) the model is much, much better.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Sep 29, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
The propaganda machine is a huge part of it.
It’s how they sell Vitor as a legit contender despite having no wins at 185 in the UFC, and how Werdum “couldn’t hang” in the UFC when he was cut after only 1 loss. A bad loss to be sure, but just one all the same.
2 losses in the UFC...
but only one in a row.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Sep 29, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
meh
his previous loss was pretty terrible, too. plenty of people have been cut after going 1-2.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Sep 29, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
or kept after going 1-5 like Liddell
…or 2-5 like Jardine (who lost 1 more before finally being cut).
White’s decisions weigh heavily on how well he gets along with his recruits. The Duffee drop (1-1) shows this, as well numerous other examples. He’s definitely has an iron-fist mentality which only strengthens the need for other promotions like Bellator & Strikeforce.
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
because if you owned a company you wouldn’t give better pay and treatment to employees that were trying to help build your business.
No, never.
its called nepotism
and it hurts business. especially if he’s putting ‘friends’ out there to destroyed. at some point you have to separate business & personal friendship…hell there are a lot more avenues now for past their prime fighters.
besides you & I are paying for this on PPV.
Werdum’s still relevant, so he is one of those
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
no actually it isn't called that
none of those fighters are related to White.
–noun
patronage bestowed or favoritism shown on the basis of family relationship, as in business and politics.
from Italian nepotismo, from nepotenephew, from the former papal practice of granting special favors to nephews or other relatives
what it IS called is favoritism. Sorry to break this to you, but you have zero argument to be made here. There’s tons of blatant, obvious, common sense stuff I could type about, including it being a business, making money, fighters wanting to fight, etc. etc. etc. but it seems pointless to waste any more of my time.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Sep 29, 2010 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Nepotism
Doesn’t strictly refer to employing family memerbs, although this is the more common usage, and can also mean the hiring of friends, regardless of merit.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Sep 30, 2010 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
please don't waste you time
with opinionated drivel.
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
like 79guy just said
established name stars. not involved in money disputes. and in lidell’s case, his personal friend.
werdum was none of those.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Sep 29, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
mind you
there’s a great need for the Strikeforces and Bellators of the world. None of that has any bearing to do with why werdum was cut.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Sep 29, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Heck yeah.
Hey man, despite his BS . . . Dana White is that dude and very similar to Mark Cuban. They’re fans and that’s great for their respective sports.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Sep 29, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh hell yeah
Refs would be fired on a weekly basis for sucking
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Sep 29, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Can Mark Cuban do a better job? I think he can do a great job but I can not dismiss what Stern has done over the past 20+ years. David Stern has had a long, stern (no-pun intended), productive and profitable run as the steward of the NBA.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Sep 29, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
The only "long, stern" thing he was involved in
is firmly lodged in Seattle’s backside.
I rarely tweet
I less-rarely write
"I ain't having it" - Buster Posey, hosing folks down
That is an excellent comparison
While dana’s job and goal is to increase profits for the UFC, at the end of the day he is a total fan as well.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 29, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
More or less but THANK GOD for
- WEC
-a Zuffa product with GREAT shows - Strikeforce or Farce
- DREAM
- Bellator
Like Dana White said, we need these guys to develop our talent. So true.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Sep 29, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Not only talent, but also salaries
The UFC pays as little as they can get away with. I assume Miller knows what he was talking about when he said that Shields was getting paid less by the UFC than Strikeforce. Werdum left for Strikeforce to get higher pay after the UFC lowballed him.
Without Strikeforce, the fighters would be paid even less.
Strikeforce inherited Shields ElIteXC deal
According to Florida figures he made $50,000 to fight Paul Daley he’ll make $160,000 if he beats Kampmann.
by MattParker117 on Sep 29, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Bob Arum dishing out insults . . .
Yeah whatever, like I care.
I’m so happy that a boxer was was saavy enough to create a promotion that rivaled Arum’s Top Rank.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
Arum wont be around in ten years. De La Hoya will.
Who do think is the future? I’m glad Oscar gets what wrong with Boxing. I still like watching a good boxing match.
The UFC Model?
He means putting on fights people actually want to see and not letting a fighter have more power than his promotion.
by Lunatic-Fridge on Sep 29, 2010 12:20 PM EDT reply actions
I'd rather have fighters getting paid than promotors
/sarcasm
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Wesley Types aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 29, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
he never said anything about money, just power to decide what happens next
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Sep 29, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
If MMA went the boxing route...
You’d have Brock – Rothwell headlining a major PPV, and it’d be the most interesting fight on the card.
I don’t wan to see 1 major star per card fighting a nobody.
by Lunatic-Fridge on Sep 29, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Awesome dichotomy
The fewer the number of promoters, the more money available for the fighters.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Sep 29, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I might start watching boxing again if this went down.
When some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head up against the barroom wall, and he looks you crooked in the eye and he asks you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail." - Jack Burton
ditto
People do not like to think. If one thinks, one must reach conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant.
- Helen Keller
by The Blackula on Sep 29, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Me too
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 29, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
If Golden Boy did this I would be sooooo happy! Less divisions, less confusion! Crown your own champions, forget about the alphabet belts. Damn this has me excited actually. Did anyone see Max Kellerman go off on the last BAD? LMAO! Talking about all that mess and super-duper-duper belts/champs n shit.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Twitter Handle = @xFenixKnightx
The only reason DLH is saying this is because he has the biggest promotion
/sarcasm
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Wesley Types aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 29, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
And that he wants more money
He is probably purely self – motivated, but, if that helps the sport of boxing, then I am fine with his business doing very well.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Sep 29, 2010 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
There is no turning back for boxing.
And by that, I don’t mean that there is no hope for boxing, but the thing is, there’s been too much freedom in boxing. As indicated in the post, there’s nothing but a bunch of free agents in boxing all wrangling for more money. Various individual fighters have been very successful on their own, and I find that when you have freedom like that, it’s really hard to take that away. The only way I can see boxing coming back from the brink is if the existing stars fade out of the spotlight and boxing, at the same time, is unable to create new stars (which is a problem right now). If boxing cannot make new stars, you have the chance at a clean slate. If a promoter like Oscar can provide a structured environment with a guaranteed number of fights with a ready audience/exposure, and can offer financial incentives that are better and more consistent for the fighters, then there may be a chance for what Oscar wants. Bottom line: the promoters have to provide fighters a clear incentive for why it is better to fight under one promotion, which they are not able to do right now.
Oscar needs to shave his head and start dropping waaaaaaaayyyyy more F-bombs. That will fix boxing asap. Just sayin…
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Twitter Handle = @xFenixKnightx
by xFenixKnightx on Sep 29, 2010 1:01 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Brent Brookhouse is correct
I really, really need to learn actual things about fighting (again, like Brookhouse) so that I don’t have to refute these tired arguments anymore.
I remember a story about an old, former Trotsky disciple at a coffee shop with a newly minted Communist. The Communist would say “money should never breed money” and the like. After a while, the old man looked at the young man and said “your arguments are so old that i have forgotten the answers to them.”
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Sep 29, 2010 1:05 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Brilliant anecdote
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Sep 29, 2010 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Ring Magazine
would be a likely candidate in my book, that way it wouldn’t lay in the hands of a promoter.
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
Except that Ring Magazine
Often have very poor rankings themselves, and a number of their writers are charlatans. Having said that, they are still far better than any official boxing organisation!
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Sep 29, 2010 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed
RM isn’t ideal, but is separate from promoters. The writers can be replaced if the idea has any legs, while promoters like Arum & King seem to have made a deal with the devil to extend their lifespan (& business).
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
Great Post!
What I found most interesting was not Dana saying he would cut Frank Mir, but the ESPN reporter asking if Dana would cut Mir. Look at the precedent Dana has set. Any displeasing performance on a main card puts a fighter on the hotseat, even if the fighter wins! Melvin Guillard apologized after his fight, he apologized for wining a fight! Anytime a fighter has a displeasing performance MSM will ask Dana White if fighter X will be cut and in my opinion that sucks.
"I have to carry out another fine moment before I die."
-Tatsuya Kawajiri-
Mir's performance was shockingly bad
Especially when you consider that his opponent was basically a punching bag on legs. I don’t think you’re looking at an emerging trend here.
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
- Mike Fagan
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
by Worldisart on Sep 29, 2010 1:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Dana said he would cut Anderson Silva (Somthing that would NEVER happen). White is placing himself above the fighters. He is putting fighters in a position where wining isen’t good enough. Dana also said post UFC 119 fighters are not putting their lives on the line. Fighters have a short amount of time to captolize on their skills. Why shorten that amount of time because wining isen’t enough anymore?
"I have to carry out another fine moment before I die."
-Tatsuya Kawajiri-
by Erich Vowell on Sep 29, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Because...
… winning doesn’t matter if the fight is so bad that it drives viewers to insert chopsticks into their eyesockets rather than risking get scammed out of $50 again next month.
I was with you until the end...
in my opinion that is part of what makes the UFC great. If Dana and the Ferrtitas swapped orgs like an old NFL/AFL team, within 2 years Strikeforce would have a whole different model and become the top org.
Its would be somewhat similar to GM/Coach combos changing fortunes of NFL or NBA teams over a short period of time, with the added bonus of ownership changes as well.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 29, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
1st can we stop pretending anything is for the sport. Threatening to fire someone because their victory was too boring, is not for the sport. Going 3-1 and being cut (Elliot Marshal) because they don’t finish while .500 fighters are kept because they stand and bang is not for the sport. Handing out bonuses for KOs and Subs that dwarf regular pay is not for the sport. To arbitrarily choose that one fighter gets a title shot based on a catchweight win while others have to accomplish 7 , 8. or 9 victories in a row, is not for the sport. The sport part is mostly a facade so that fans don’t feel guilty about watching what they want to watch – two dudes wailing on each other.
My dream solution for both boxing and mma is so simple it will never happen, especially not in boxing which is entrenched with a centuries worth of sleazy promoters. The answer: A professional mixed martial artists association or boxers association. Much like the PGA or ATP, they would take over the sport and authorize promotions and events. The UFC would still be around as the majors. It in fact would be guaranteed all the top talent. But the bulk of the revenues would go out to either the fighters or sport expansion and the scale would be based on in-cage accomplishments. Positions in the promotion (s) would be based on objective point systems and not arbitrary"is he a team player" decisions. Dana White could be retained and paid to continue hyping the sport and the brand, but the sport would really be about the sport and not the brand.
The solution is so easy and so obvious it will never be.
by John Nash on Sep 29, 2010 1:24 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
IIRC
One win and one loss were via SD, but your point remains. In the future simply replace “for the sport” with “for our profitability” and you have the truth.
Off hand I’d say your solution is an outstanding idea, although I agree it is unlikely to ever happen.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 29, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
That is retarded.
First off, golf is a points based game. The dude with the lowest score wins. This is not even close to being the same thing.
What’s best for the sport is to put on the fights that the people watching want to see. Plain and simple. It’s a spectators sport.
I pay to see because there is a fight I want to see. If there is no fights I want to see I don’t pay. You can get idealistic all day long, but at the end of the day the business and the sport need CASHFLOW.
It’s not about the BEST fighters. It’s about the ones that can perform well while still being entertaining.
I don’t care if Fitch 100 and 1 in his past 101 fights. i’m not interested in seeing him in a co-main event, let alone a title fights. I’d rather see one that I have never heard of fight for the title than him.
It’s not about standing and banging, it’s about trying to finish the fight. Mia sucks at striking but fans love him because rather than just control the position he, say fuck it, I’m willing to lose the position to try and jack this dudes arm.
Skill + Entertainment = Main event fighters.
I don’t care if Fitch 100 and 1 in his past 101 fights
You are one of the few and the proud. This is a sport, not a movie.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Sep 29, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’m saying that fighters earn title shots. They’re not rewarded to them because people want to see them (at least, that’s the way it ought to be)
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Sep 29, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
That is 100% correct...
in theory…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 29, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
That does have to be balanced with the pure sport side to be sure
“Watchability” is hugely important to the growth of the sport…having Fitch fight GSP once a year just because he is the next best is just silly…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 29, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
There is pure sport
The commission ensures that the rules are upheld as best as they can to determine who was the winner.
That is where the sport ends.
From there out, it’s purely promotion.
Formula
Section 1 : Entertainment = Who fights who
Section 2 : Sport = applies rules from applied variables from section 1
When I refer to pure sport
I simply mean opponents are determined based on getting the ‘W’ in the cage – nothing more, nothing less. Fitch beat Alves in what was billed as a title shot fight, ergo he should get it.
However, I feel that growth of the sport takes precedence, and that sometimes requires “creative” matchmaking to get the best balance of sport and entertainment, without taking away any of the legitimacy.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 29, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
So that’s why Cleveland was moved right into the NBA finals last year, because that’s who everyone wanted to see? Oh wait, they weren’t because they lost. Or why Orlando made it two years ago when everyone wanted Boston or Cleveland? Or why those major draws Philly and Tampa Bay were in the World series in 2008? NO, I think they all made it because they won. The same way Leyton Hewitt and Goran Ivanisevic were Wimbledon champs, even though no one cared about them. Because they won. If it’s purely for entertainment then maybe Dana should sign Kurt Angle to take on Shaq for the HW champ and the biggest fight in the “sports” history.
Now if you’re worried about entertaining the fans there is plenty they can do. They can choose which matches to broadcast based on which fights have the most fan interest. They can change the rules, much like the other sports do, to try and guarantee the most pleasing form of the sport. But if it is sport they can pick and choose who advances and who doesn’t. That isn’t sport, that’s spectacle.
by John Nash on Sep 29, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I hope Coker wasn't reading the Angle-Shaq idea
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Sep 29, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
You missed your sections up
You put good fighters against good fighters and you get good fights.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Sep 29, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I need to click the right reply more often. sorry
They are earned. Through building a face base and building a desire for the fans [who pay the wages] to see that person in big fights.
Brock Lesnar earned his spot in the UFC. He build up a desire for people to PAY to see him try it.
Why not say the NHL shouldn’t be thinking of ways to improve the amount of goals in a game?
They should be doing anything to help support that the fans want to see.
That is what sport is about. Entertaining fans.
Gary Bettman has done a great job of destroying anything the fans want.
"I have to carry out another fine moment before I die."
-Tatsuya Kawajiri-
by Erich Vowell on Sep 29, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
The only sport I watch is MMA. I go to the occasional live NHL game. All I know is they want more goals and less fighting.
Which is fine.
Their good fighters can come to MMA too.
LOL!
Funny you should say that they already have in Canada. Promoters put two hockey enforcers in the cage with each other about two months ago. I think Dave Pavelich is running his next show with a hockey enforcer on it
"I have to carry out another fine moment before I die."
-Tatsuya Kawajiri-
by Erich Vowell on Sep 29, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m canadian and the only time I see hockey is when It’s on at a bar, or I am offered free or really cheap tickets.
And do you have a link a vid of the fight?
I don’t know if I am allowed to post, so please don’t ban me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJRTqO4W-zI&NR=1
"I have to carry out another fine moment before I die."
-Tatsuya Kawajiri-
by Erich Vowell on Sep 29, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep
David Stern knew exactly what he was doing in recommending him for that job – cut off potential future competition at the knees…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 29, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I agree, thats the way it should be but it’s currently not. Its sports entertainment with some emphasis on the sport. Much like how WWE is sports entertainment with more emphasis on the entertainment. As long as the UFC continues to emulate the WWE business model, than being more entertaining as a fighter will always be more important than actually winning. That means Jon Fitch (and all other “borring” fighters) get left in the dust.
<blockquoteThat means Jon Fitch (and all other "borring" fighters) get left in the dust.>
Good. I’d rather watch an entertaining and aggressive fighters who only win 6 out of 10 fights make dust for Fitch to eat.
They ain't making Fitch eat anything
These guys you’re talking about would get humped into oblivion by Fitch – interestingly enough, that’s why they won’t be getting title shots!
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Sep 29, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
By definition professional sports are for profit organizations, what is about making money through the sport is part of the deal. Every professional sport has to make decisions/changes to keep the sport entertaining for fans because without that money coming in from fans and advertisers the sport will cease to exist. There is such thing as a pure professional sport because being a “professional” sport means that money is a big part of it as is the entertainment aspects of it.
Which I addressed in another post.
The sports part should be that accomplishments in the ring/cage should dictate your progress in the sport. That the winners rise and the “best fight the best”. How do we crown a true champ if he is not guaranteed to be actually facing the other best fighters?
As for the entertainment factor, there are easy solutions to be had by imitating the other major sports:
- you can still be selective in what fights make the broadcast. None of the other major sports have a policy where only the best teams or most important games are shown. If there is strong interest in a particular fighter or fight, or if a particular matchup looks as if it should be exciting why not put that on the main card?
- The rules can be changed, tinkered with to make it more exciting. If we had a ranking system where fighters rose based on victories, we could reward finishes. Easy example: you lose a point for a loss, get nothing for a draw, one point for a victory, and two points for a sub or ko (much like the Super 6 scoring). Suddenly finishes are more important to rise up the ranks. 3 or 4 finishes and you get a title match instead of having to win 7 or 8 straight decisions. There is now an incentive to finish, and because any loss (dec, sub, or KO) is the same there is no benefit in being particularly cautious, especially when losing. There, we have tinkered with the rules to guarantee it’s a sport while also making it fan friendly.
The sports part should be that accomplishments in the ring/cage should dictate your progress in the sport. That the winners rise and the "best fight the best". How do we crown a true champ if he is not guaranteed to be actually facing the other best fighters?
I agree 100% but that doesn’t change the fact that there will always be a entertainment angle in making fights, that happens in boxing and MMA. Big fights are fights between two people the fans want to see fight not two top contenders. You can’t get away from the fact that in order to survive as a professional sport you have to give the fans what they want, even if that doesn’t fit well with the sports elements.
None of the other major sports have a policy where only the best teams or most important games are shown.
Networks control that not the sports organizations, a television executive decides which NFL game gets shown on a Sunday not the league based on what he thinks will get the best ratings. It’s still all about the money. A big problem combat sports have that the big team sports don’t is that team sports have fans that are loyal to the team instead of any specific athlete. For the most part they are going to see their team play/win as opposed to any specific athlete play(some ball players are draws in their own right). That system makes it easier for them to sell because of fan expectations, if the team is winning fans are happy. In combat sports fans go to see a specific fighter fight in the main event.
I wish people would stop pretending that other sports didn’t make decisions based on monetary and entertainment reasons.
Why can’t the Red Sox and Yankees ever play in the world series? Because everyone makes more money if they play 20 regular season games a year against each other.
The other things about win/loss records and just letting the winners move up isn’t applicable because mma fighters will never have enough fights to actually figure it out. Baseball players can play every day, football players can play every week (and we still can’t figure out a way to find a winner in college). Tennis and golf are situations where it’s physically possible to get the best people in the world together every week or every few months and have tournaments (and even those bow down to entertainment and money issues in terms of wild cards, sponsors exemptions, tiebreakers, playoffs, etc).
Sports that don’t take business and entertainment factors into account are sports that fail.
Phildo, are you intentionally ignoring my numerous comments about what other sports do to add entertainment value? Such choosing what games or which fights are broadcast based on their entertainment value. Or changing the rules to make any of the sports more fan pleasing? These are what every other sport does and what the UFC or mma could do as well. But apparently for a lot of people trying to actually learn who is the best is only rhetoric when what’s really desired is bum fights and real pro wrestling.
As for the win/loss breakdown, it could almost easily work. It works for every amateur combat association: judo, kickboxing, boxing, wrestling. Following their guidelines it would work on two principles:
1) A tier system. If you win (gain enough points) you rise to the next tier. Lets say there are three tiers in the UFC A-B-C. When you come in you enter at the lowest rookie tier ©. four pioint (see above) moves you up to the next tier where better talent resides. Four points their again and you are in the contenders tier. With 4 or 5 straight wins a fighter could be contender. And think of the added excitement as fights actually meant something. If a victory had concrete results and the fans could follow your progress.
2) an administration branch or council that would place new fighter or award moves based on merit. If another Brock comes in with a strong fighting background he doesn’t have to work his way up from some small, local show, he can be awarded a spot in the UFC, in a tier they judge fitting. From there fans could watch and follow his progression as he earns a title shot instead of being handed one after a single victory.
The methods of amateur judo, kickboxing, wrestling, and boxing don’t really apply, because none of those methods are used successfully at the next level.
I’m not ignoring it, it’s the way it is. You keep complaining about the UFC not having hard and fast matchmaking rules but ignore the fact that last place teams in the NFL get easier schedules than first place teams. divisions that are supposed to be based on geography are gerrymandered to make more money for everyone involved. And all of that interferes with finding out “who the best is.” College football is the best example but there are scheduling inequities and quirks about the playoffs systems in every successful professional sport. All of these things come from a desire to make money, and put finding out who the best is at the back burner.
The UFC cannot be held to some different standard than every other business and sport in the universe.
But the NFL schedule is not done completely on a whim. The last have the easiest because they came in last. The weird divisions are mostly to keep historical rivalries (which also sell better) around. Everyone enters the season knowing what they have to do to make the playoffs.
And of course College is trapped by the money and its own history.
The reason why mma would have to go to an objective matchmaking system is because that is the only way an association (my original argument) would work. Fighters would want to know – and have a guarantee – that a fair share of the spoils is in their own hands. What fighter would want to sign up for something knowing he could be better than the next guy but gets dumped to the back of the line because he didn’t have a mohawk?
There is also drama and entertainment value that could be milked by actually understanding how important a fight was. To me knowing that the winner of Bisbing vs Akiyama or Leben vs Wanderlie was going move into the contenders bracket, it would add that much more to the fight. Suddenly it actually means something. Part of the reason everything is based on promoters subjective decision making is that it keeps the power out of the fighters hands. Who cares where a fighter is ranked or how many fights he’s won in a row, the brass picks who’s the contender.
See that's the thing
A Fitch/GSP fight won’t sell as well as other fights with casual fans. Granted.
Nobody cares, and least of all Dana White and Joe Silva. They understand their jobs go beyond drawing as many eyes as possible. They’ve got a steady 300,000 buys for every PPV and that’s solely a result of treating us – people that watch the sport because we care about it – well.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Sep 29, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Not mention there are tiers.
You KO a few newbs in a dominating fashion and you get a crack at top tier guy. If you find yourself on the recieving end of some major pwnage then Joe rogan says “he’s got some skills but he is not ready for this level yet.”
and Goldie will add “Ya, I hear you there joe.”
And besides I like to see a can be a last minute replacement some times. Because it’s funny as all hell when the can wins!
Why can’t the Red Sox and Yankees ever play in the world series?
Because they’re both in the AL.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Sep 29, 2010 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions
So the fact that they were in a league together 100 years ago when there were only 8 teams should prevent them playing in the world series if they are the 2 best teams in baseball?
That seems sillier than picking fights that will sell PPVs.
The point is, in baseball there are rules that you can point to when considering why teams are seeded the way they are in the playoffs, and why an NL team faces an AL team for the world series. Why did the Yanks make it to the World Series last year? It wasn’t because they sell out stadiums around the country on a regular basis. It was because they won the AL Championship series. Why did they get into the playoffs? Becuase they won their conference during the regular season (or won the AL wildcard, I don’t remember).
Arguing the rules are stupid is one thing, and you have a point that the reasoning behind them is archaic. But the fact they have rules for determining who gets to compete in the playoffs and in the World Series is a huge step up in legitimacy from the WWE model of determining contenders. There is no clear cut progression to say x fighter deserves a title shot in the UFC, the “majors” of MMA, and that deligitimizes the “sporting” aspect of it in my eyes.
And your two responses to “Why can’t the Red Sox and Yankees ever play in the world series” contradict each other.
Because everyone makes more money if they play 20 regular season games a year against each other.
So the fact that they were in a league together 100 years ago when there were only 8 teams should prevent them playing in the world series if they are the 2 best teams in baseball?
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Sep 30, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
They are earned. Through building a face base and building a desire for the fans [who pay the wages] to see that person in big fights.
Brock Lesnar earned his spot in the UFC. He build up a desire for people to PAY to see him try it.
Randy requested Brock for his comeback fight
That’s the main reason Lesnar got that shot.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Sep 29, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
saying Boxing would benefit from UFC model is basically saying boxing would benefit from WWE model. Thats just nuts. And of course Oscar would say he wants his org. to be the number one orginization, which boxing promoter would not say that?
saying Boxing would benefit from UFC model is basically saying boxing would benefit from WWE model
Wrestling is also based around putting on events people WANT to see while not letting the performers run the show.
This would also be better than boxing’s current model.
by Lunatic-Fridge on Sep 29, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
In reality, OPTIMALLY pro wrestling is based around putting on what the fans want to see
In practice… not so much. :(
I don't think so....
For one, the UFC is not the best model out there… They were just the first MMA organization with enough backing to move to PPV. They were the only ones doing it, and it gave them name recognition.
My biggest issue with UFC is they’re pay scale. They are robbing these fighters blind (except the lucky few). And I’ve already seen the arguments, but all said and done… When 40 or so “main” fighters are generating you billions… you have to cough up more than an average 20k a fight… Most fighters have a short lived “Prime” in this sport. It’ s crap that a promoter would exploit ones skills for tens of millions, and only shell out around 150k over their life career span within the promotion.
You need competition… Competition swells better fighters and fairer pay scales for the fighters… Now I’m not saying lets have 40 promotions… but a good BIG THREE or FOUR is good for everyone. Allowing a monopoly never works for any party but the owner.. In other words, you get instances were a company charges an outrages $50.00 a month (some times twice a month) in a dwindling economy… and we pay it cause we have no other option (so to speak)..
So I’m glad we do have other options such as Strikeforce & Bellator… They may not be the top promotion, but I still think they have several great fighters.. With enough time & exposure, they can gain quite a bit of momentum to an equal stomping grounds… And I think Golden Boy would be perfect!!" – ha ha… yeah, I doubt he have said this when he was just a fighter… Going from millions a fight to 50k…. he ain’t bleeding for that after making a cold mill…
By the by… of course De La Hoya said this… Now that he’s not a fighter, he wants to move to a model like UFC so he (the promoter) can squander all the money & pay the fighters less… It’s all greed…. - "Oh, yes… of course we should do this..
In other words, you get instances were a company charges an outrages $50.00 a month (some times twice a month) in a dwindling economy… and we pay it cause we have no other option (so to speak)..
By paying for it because we believe we have no other options, we are encouraging them to just keep doing what they do and dilute the cards. I don’t pay for cards I feel aren’t worth it. If more people did that, then maybe the UFC might do something about it.
Oscar was in Brooklyn Tuesday
To promote Golden Boys partnership with the Barclays Center arena
-Say man when I was growing up we wanted a Jacuzzi, we had to fart in the tub.
On the Fitch dilemma
On the one hand he won; on the other hand, I don’t remember him having proved (vs. Alves) that he’s corrected the deficiency that led to GSP smashing him repeatedly on the feet, which is a plausible reason to not give him a title shot. :)
If you’re thinking that “this assumes that GSP will defeat Koscheck,” I’d agree if it weren’t for Koscheck being AKA and thus the potential for collusion in a Koscheck vs. Fitch fight, although Fitch has already said he’ll leave for middleweight first.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Bloody Elbow
Related FanShots on Bloody Elbow
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
MMA Rankings
