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Is MMA Too Violent? One Reporter Says Enough Is Enough

via ESPN

Some of MMA's greatest moments are also its scariest. Who can forget Tank Abbott laying waste to John Matua or Brad Kohler smashing Steve Judson's face? These highlight reel knockouts took our breath away - they also took something from the victim, physically and mentally. What are the long term effects of a life of violence? Former MMA Weekly Editor Ivan Trembow is afraid of that answer. Trembow has decided to stop supporting MMA, a sport that like many of us, he's fallen in love with over the years:

Very few days have gone by over these many years during which I haven't either read about, or written about, or watched MMA, and for good reason: The technique involved in MMA, the fact that a fighter can employ dozens of different strategies and try to go about winning in so many different ways, the fact that all of those strategies have counter-strategies (and those counters have counters), the fact that there are so many different ways to win... These are the things that have always made me feel that MMA is the most exciting sport in the world to watch.

But the visceral pleasure he gets from the action in the cage isn't enough anymore. Trembow says an HBO special on concussions opened his eyes to what he sees as a growing problem. Brain issues like chronic traumatic encephalopathy are just too dangerous Trembow thinks. Combined with other issues, like pain killer abuse and suicide, it creates a scary picture and a bleak future for many MMA stars.

However, the facts remain that when you combine the issue of painkiller abuse in MMA with the lack of collective bargaining, medical insurance, pension plans, or any athletic commissions that have the ability (or the desire) to conduct drug testing that is even remotely close to the standards of the World Anti-Doping Agency, and you combine all of that with the avalanche of emerging science about concussions, CTE, Alzheimer's-like syndromes, and even ALS-like syndromes, it adds up to a recipe for disaster in the years to come, and I just can't watch it anymore.

We are just seeing first hand how time and the rigors of competition have decimated first generation MMA stars like Ken Shamrock, Jens Pulver, and Kazushi Sakuraba. In time will all our heroes be shells of themselves, barely capable of functioning in society? We just don't know yet what the long term issues will be for MMA participation. Trembow has made a choice - he couldn't live with encouraging others to do themselves harm. Where do you stand?

After the break, the complete Ivan Trembow article.

Star-divide

Editor's note: This article, by Ivan Trembow, was re-published with permission. Trembow is a former writer and Editor with MMA Weekly.

A few weeks ago, I made the decision that I am no longer going to be watching MMA (or football, or boxing, or kickboxing).

It was very difficult for me to come to this decision, because MMA has not just been my favorite sport for as long as I can remember; it has also been my biggest interest and passion in life for as long as I can remember. The sport of MMA has been what I often go to bed thinking about, it has been what I've written about for years, it has given me something to look forward to during many tough times, and it has been the sport that I've defended to any of my friends or family who oppose it. I know that no longer watching MMA is going to leave a void in my life, and that no longer watching football, boxing, or kickboxing is going to be easy by comparison.

Very few days have gone by over these many years during which I haven't either read about, or written about, or watched MMA, and for good reason: The technique involved in MMA, the fact that a fighter can employ dozens of different strategies and try to go about winning in so many different ways, the fact that all of those strategies have counter-strategies (and those counters have counters), the fact that there are so many different ways to win... These are the things that have always made me feel that MMA is the most exciting sport in the world to watch.

At the same time, I know that I can't watch it anymore, and I'd like to explain what led to my decision to no longer watch the sport that I've loved so much for so many years.

 

I recently watched a segment on an episode of the HBO newsmagazine "Real Sports" that I had saved on Tivo. The segment was about a peer-reviewed scientific study that links brain injuries such as concussions to ALS (and to syndromes like ALS), which is probably the single worst way for a human being to (slowly and painfully) die.

After watching this segment, I went online and started reading. And reading. And reading. I read about concussions for hours and hours, then for the better part of a couple days. (One of the many, many articles that I found was one on Sherdog.com, written by Dr. Matt Pitt on the subject of brain injuries in MMA)

While of course everyone has known for years that concussions are "bad for you" in general, the scientific community has only begun to fully understand the wide scope of the long-term consequences of concussions in the past few years. Studies have recently been conducted on the brains of dead football players, boxers, and pro wrestlers. Many of these athletes lived long enough to finish their careers, but nowhere near a normal life expectancy, and the alarming trend in the studies of these athletes' brains is that they had brain damage that was far worse than anyone suspected or could have imagined.

Specifically, they had chronic traumatic encephalopathy, or CTE.

Some of these athletes had drastic behaviorial changes before their deaths, some of them developed Alzheimer's-like syndromes, some of them developed ALS-like syndromes, some of them killed themselves, and some of them killed others before killing themselves (such as pro wrestler Chris Benoit, who murdered his wife Nancy and his seven-year-old son Daniel before killing himself in 2007).

While these studies have not yet looked at the brains of dead MMA fighters, in part because the sample size of dead athletes in the relatively young sport of MMA hasn't been as large yet, common sense dictates that many of the same findings that these researchers have made about football's effects on the brain later in life, and boxing's effects on the brain later in life, will also apply to MMA.

Yes, MMA is "safer than boxing," but I think I must have been kidding myself to ever think that "safer than boxing" meant "relatively safe," no matter how much the athletic commissions and MMA promoters deny or downplay the long-term brain issues associated with MMA. People in football and boxing made the same denials for many years until the evidence became too overwhelming to deny anymore.

If one uses the threshold that suffering three or more concussions causes an athlete to be much more likely to develop CTE (even though recent research has shown that you don't need to have suffered three concussions to have a greatly increased risk of CTE), what's the percentage of MMA fighters who haven't had three concussions?

Most MMA fighters have been concussed at least that many times, some far more than that. The case of Kazushi Sakuraba is probably the most sad, grotesque, and heartbreaking (and Sakuraba recently said that he wants to fight for five to ten more years). Yes, that's in Japan, but even in the United States, this country's financially motivated athletic commissions don't seem to think twice about licensing someone like, say, Wanderlei Silva, who has been knocked out cold several times in official MMA fights and, by his own admission, was knocked out cold numerous additional times during full-contact training sessions at Chute Boxe.

 

Unconscious MMA Fighters Continuing to Get Punched

While MMA is safer than boxing overall, there are some ways in which MMA is actually less safe than boxing. One example: While it's true that giving boxers a standing-eight-count to get back to their feet after a knockdown really just enables boxers to take more punishment after they get back up, there is one thing that you rarely see in boxing, but which takes place all the time in MMA and is not even considered anything out of the ordinary: Fighters getting punched in the head repeatedly after they've already been knocked unconscious by a devastating strike to the head.

When an MMA fighter has very clearly knocked his or her opponent unconscious, it is the exception, not the norm, for the fighter to stop like Gerald Harris did after his recent knockout win over Dave Branch.

It's far more common for MMA fighters (like Hector Lombard and many, many others) to continue punching and punching, even after their opponent has very clearly been knocked unconscious, until the referee intervenes, which is often very late.

Sometimes, the fighter even throws one or two more punches after the referee intervenes (as was the case after Quinton Jackson knocked out Wanderlei Silva), and of course, the "go along to get along" athletic commissions sit on their hands and do nothing about it, not even issuing a small fine just to make the point that you shouldn't keep punching after the referee has intervened.

In addition to the times when it's obvious that a fighter is unconscious, there are also plenty of times when the punches to the head of the already-unconscious fighter are delivered in such rapid-fire fashion that it's impossible to fault the fighter who keeps punching (one example would be Cain Velasquez's knockout of Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira). In these cases, it's not as if the winning fighters had time to see that their opponents were already unconscious. However, to the losing fighters, the result is the same: Getting punched in the head repeatedly after they've already been knocked unconscious.

Many times (like in the aforementioned Nogueira-Velasquez fight), the knocked-out fighter wakes up very quickly after the punches stop. In these cases, they're usually able to give a post-fight interview with little-to-no ill effects apparent to the viewers at home. It's easy for many MMA fans (myself included) to delude ourselves into thinking that everything is okay in these situations. Two athletes competed, one of them won, one of them lost, and even if one of them got knocked out, they both seem fine now, but unfortunately, that's not the way it works. Many of the horrible symptoms of concussion-related brain damage take years to surface as the deposits of tau proteins in the brain build up over time.


Subconcussive Blows: No Concussions Necessary to Develop CTE

The study on the brain of deceased NFL player Chris Henry showed that you don't even need to have suffered a major concussion to have CTE, because you can also get CTE from many lesser blows to the head. Henry, who died during a domestic dispute in December 2009 at the age of only 26, was never diagnosed with a concussion during his football career, but the post-mortem examination of his brain revealed that he had CTE.

Think of all the times that MMA fighters get "rocked" or "buzzed" or "stung" during fights. An accumulation of these blows (both in fights and in training) can be more than enough to lead to athletes developing CTE and the associated problems that come with it, even if they are fortunate enough to go through their entire career without being knocked out.

The idea that you have to be a grizzled, old veteran of your sport to have CTE is an idea that is disproved by the Chris Henry case, and is further disproved by the recently released study on the brain of college football player Owen Thomas. Thomas, a captain on the University of Pennsylvania's football team, was only 21 years old and was never diagnosed with anything severe enough to be labeled "a concussion" during his football career. Thomas killed himself this past April, and a post-mortem examination of his brain revealed that he had CTE, which doctors believe was from an accumulation of subconcussive, "lesser" blows to the head.

How many MMA fighters have been "buzzed" or "stung" in fights that they've actually won? Too many to count. Sometimes, it's even discussed with a smile in the post-fight interview. There are many examples that I could cite, and one of them is when Rich Franklin said in the post-fight interview that he couldn't remember large portions of his unanimous decision victory against the late Evan Tanner, because he had been "rocked" earlier in the fight.

Many MMA fighters also suffer concussions and/or subconcussive blows to the head in fights that they lose, and they are often allowed to continue fighting even after they clearly should not be. To cite one of many possible examples, was there any doubt in anyone's mind that Jorge Gurgel was in no condition to continue fighting when he got "rocked" immediately after the bell sounded to end Round 1 of his recent fight against K.J. Noons? A glassy-eyed and woozy-looking Gurgel could barely make it back to his corner.

In the sixty seconds between rounds, Gurgel's corner-men, the ringside doctor, and the referee all failed to do their job. They apparently failed to realize that their job at that moment was to look out for the safety of the injured fighter and stop the fight, not to squeeze every last drop of "action" out of Gurgel. Predictably, shortly after the second round started, Noons stunned Gurgel again and won by TKO, but not before the amount of brain trauma suffered by Gurgel had far exceeded what it "needed" to be. Sadly, the case of Gurgel vs. Noons is not an isolated example; it's just one of the most obvious recent examples.

After a fight (or training session) in which a fighter gets "buzzed" or "stung" by subconcussive blows to the head, fighters sometimes have very few symptoms of a head injury. Sometimes, shortly after the offending strike, they have no symptoms whatsoever. Often, they can even pass neurological exams and feel 100% "recovered," while still having suffered brain damage that may only get worse in the years to come as deposits of tau proteins build up in their brains.

Many of the fighters who are suffering concussions or subconcussive blows to the head today, and are at risk for developing CTE, may not experience any of the signs of CTE for many years, giving them a false sense of security in some cases. (How many fighters are able to rationalize anything to themselves by saying, "No matter how many other fighters are suffering from Health Problem X, that's not going to happen to me"?) By the time that any symptoms of CTE become apparent, years' worth of additional brain damage may have been inflicted.

These fighters and their doctors would have no way of knowing for sure if they have CTE while they're alive, because CTE can currently only be diagnosed by removing and examining someone's brain tissue after they have died.

One of the reasons that some athletes who suffer brain injuries later develop CTE, and some don't even if they have suffered the same number of brain injuries, is genetic. In 70% of the brains that they have studied, doctors at the Brain Injury Research Institute have found a gene that is believed to be a precursor gene. As is the case with many diseases, this indicates that some people are more susceptible to developing CTE if they are exposed to risk factors such as a brain injury, and some people are less susceptible.


Fighters Who Have Been Reduced to Shells of their Former Selves

There are countless fighters in MMA who have been reduced to shells of their former selves when it comes to their in-ring (or in-cage) performances, in part because they have taken so much punishment to the head over the years. In some cases, while these fighters' situations are still viewed as sad, many MMA fans (myself included) have been able to rationalize this in the past by saying, "Well, they're in their late 30s or 40s," which is generally considered "old" in sports. But in addition to the fact that being in one's late 30s or 40s is not "old" in life, many of these fighters don't even meet the sports definition of "old."

To name just a few examples: Jens Pulver is 35 (and though his recent losses have come by submission, he has gotten knocked down or "rocked" shortly before the submission in most of those fights). Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira is 34 (though an accident during his childhood may have accelerated his decline a couple of decades later). Keith Jardine is 34 (and he recently said that he had the "worst migraine in the world" and was "in a bad situation" before and during his fight against Trevor Prangley, but he fought anyway). Wanderlei Silva is 34 (and, in addition to the fact that he has been knocked out numerous times, he has lost five of his last seven fights). Andrei Arlovski is just 31 (and, in addition to the fact that he has lost his last three fights, he has been knocked out six times during his career).

I could list many more MMA fighters who have been reduced to shells of their former selves in the ring/cage; I have only listed fighters who are 35 years old or younger to illustrate the point that a fighter doesn't even have to be considered "old" by sports standards in order to fit that description.

Like athletes in other sports, all too many MMA fighters on the tail end of their careers don't know when the time has come for them to retire from the sport, and there's always one promoter or another who is still willing to book them (and many athletic commissions who are willing to license them).

In sports that don't involve brain injuries as an inherent part of the sport, staying around for too long in search of the next moment of glory, or the next adrenaline rush, or simply the next paycheck, can lead to athletes getting embarrassed or having their legacies diminished in some way.

In sports that do involve brain injuries as an inherent part of the sport, such as MMA, boxing, and football, staying around for too long in search of the next mega-dose of adrenaline can also lead to athletes significantly worsening the brain damage that they've already suffered.

Some MMA fighters (like Chuck Liddell) have taken so much punishment to the head that they actually speak differently than they used to. One of the biggest examples of slurred speech in boxing in the past several years is, ironically, James Toney, whose speech is so slurred that he sounds nothing like he did when he was younger. When Toney recently entered the world of mixed martial arts, this exposed MMA fans, writers, and fighters to Toney's badly slurred speech, which is something that they might not have previously been aware of.

Sadly, when it comes to how most people reacted to this, there seemed to be more people who thought it was funny that Toney needed subtitles than there were people who wondered why a fighter with such badly slurred speech was still being licensed to fight in MMA, boxing, or any other combat sport.

These are just some of the examples that I could cite, and these examples only include fighters from fairly well-known MMA promotions. Undoubtedly, there are countless other fighters that I have never heard of, fighting on small MMA shows, who could also be accurately described as shells of their former selves in the ring or cage.


MMA Fighter Suicides

Sadly, many of the times that we hear about these fighters in smaller MMA promotions are when something horrible happens, such as when a fighter dies from brain injuries suffered in a specific fight (like Sam Vasquez in 2007 and Michael Kirkham in 2010), or when a fighter commits suicide.

Both CTE and Alzheimer's disease involve tau protein deposits in the brain. These deposits affect different parts of the brain in people with CTE than they affect in people with Alzheimer's, although CTE can end up leading to many of the same symptoms, such as severe memory loss and other aspects of dementia.

Due to the parts of the brain that are affected, two of the problems faced by people with CTE are severe depression and decreased impulse control. If the combination of severe depression and decreased impulse control sounds dangerous, it should, as this deadly combination may have contributed to the suicides of football players and boxers.

While doctors have not yet tested the brains of dead MMA fighters to look for CTE, a troubling number of MMA fighters have commited suicide in recent years, and several more have attempted suicide. The actual numbers may be higher because this is just what I could find in a Google search, but these are the minimum numbers.

Since 2006, at least six MMA fighters have committed suicide, and three of those MMA fighters are believed by police to have killed someone else before they killed themselves. Additionally, three other MMA fighters have attempted suicide during the same time period.

The six MMA fighters who have committed suicide in the past four years are Shelby Walker in 2006; Jeremy Williams and Justin Levens in 2007; Cliff Moore in 2008; and Bobby Suggs and Kenny Trevino in 2010.

When the subject of MMA fighters committing suicide has been raised on the Internet, an all-too-common reaction is something to the effect of, "Well, those fighters weren't on the biggest MMA shows," as if that somehow changes the fact that these people were professional MMA fighters, and that they were human beings who had families (as did their victims in the murder-suicide cases).

In the case of Justin Levens, police say that he killed his wife, Sarah McLean-Levens, shortly before killing himself in 2007.

In the case of Bobby Suggs, police say that he killed his ex-girlfriend, Amber Zavala, shortly before killing himself earlier this year.

In the case of Kenny Trevino, both Trevino and his ex-girlfriend, Tiffanie Perry, were found dead in an apartment earlier this month. Their deaths are still being investigated, but police have indicated that Trevino was despondent and suicidal over his recent break-up, and that they are treating the case as a murder-suicide.

The MMA fighters who have had suicide attempts since 2006 are Andrei Arlovski, Mike Guymon, and Junie Browning.

How many of these MMA fighters who killed themselves or others had CTE? There's no way to know for sure, because post-mortem testing on their brain tissue was not done by the Brain Injury Research Institute, or by the Center for the Study of Traumatic Encephalopathy at Boston University, the two organizations that have been at the forefront of CTE-related research. But I'd have to be kidding myself to think that the number of those fighters who had CTE is zero.


Painkiller Abuse in MMA

The issues with brain injuries have added to concerns that I've had for a long time about the problem of painkiller abuse in MMA, especially given the fact that the decreased impulse control that is associated with CTE is believed to make athletes who have CTE more likely to become addicted to a variety of substances.

A large percentage of the people that I grew up watching in pro wrestling have died prematurely, and while many of the published autopsy reports noted street drugs or steroids as a primary or secondary factor in their deaths, the single biggest killer of pro wrestlers over the years (as noted on autopsy reports) has been the abuse of painkillers, which is also a growing problem in MMA.

In most of the biggest MMA promotions, if you get injured during a fight, the promotion will pay for your medical expenses as a result of that injury. However, if you get injured during training camp, you are on your own financially with those injuries. Furthermore, since your paycheck as a fighter comes when you fight, it sets up a system in which you are essentially encouraged to go into fights with training injuries, because you need that next paycheck unless you're one of the few fighters like Brock Lesnar or Chuck Liddell with millions of dollars in the bank.

Continuing to train through injuries is something that goes hand in hand with painkiller abuse, as does going through with fights while injured, which is why there are more and more MMA fighters who have problems with painkillers.

Taking into account the fact that the vast majority of painkiller abusers are going to try to keep it hidden and are going to be reluctant going to admit to it publicly, just think of all the MMA fighters who have publicly admitted to abusing painkillers: Frank Mir, Joe Riggs, Kevin Randleman, Mark Coleman, Don Frye, and Mark Kerr, to name a few.

Then there are the MMA fighters who have denied it publicly, but whose friends, family, coaches, or training partners have discussed their issues with painkiller abuse, like Paulo Filho and Karo Parisyan.

Then there are the MMA fighters who abused painkillers in their pro wrestling days, like Brock Lesnar, who has said that he used to eat prescription pain pills like they were candy.

Again, logic dictates that these fighters represent a small fraction of the fighters who have actually abused painkillers.


A Recipe for Disaster

As I said at the beginning of this post, I have loved MMA for as long as I can remember.

However, the facts remain that when you combine the issue of painkiller abuse in MMA with the lack of collective bargaining, medical insurance, pension plans, or any athletic commissions that have the ability (or the desire) to conduct drug testing that is even remotely close to the standards of the World Anti-Doping Agency, and you combine all of that with the avalanche of emerging science about concussions, CTE, Alzheimer's-like syndromes, and even ALS-like syndromes, it adds up to a recipe for disaster in the years to come, and I just can't watch it anymore.

At the same time, I want to make it clear that I have still have a great deal of respect for the fighters who put their lives on the line by competing in MMA. I'm also not trying to act like I'm taking a moral high ground and looking down on anyone who watches MMA and continues to watch MMA in the future. I'm just saying that for me, personally, I can't continue to watch it.

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Good article...

Unfortunately, I feel like this article is going to fall mostly on deaf ears.

Counterarguments will include:
-no one’s forcing their hand;
- humanity enjoys violence and has done so since gladiatorial contests;
-while you may feel that the contestants are being exploited for our entertainment, aren’t all those who labor for a wage exploited in some sense (Marxist argument)

The fact of the matter is that there are serious repercussions when taking part in combat sports and we haven’t really yet seen their effects (save a few noteworthy incidents). I’m glad you guys are shedding some light on this.

by HonorableJudgeIto on Sep 28, 2010 5:38 PM EDT reply actions  

Cheers

I like what Joe Stevenson said about it (I’m paraphrasing a little, but I have a pretty good memory): “I don’t need to do this. I could walk away from the sport right now and find another way to support my family. My wife understands that. But my wife also understands you can’t spend your life wondering ‘what if.’”

"There's this image that you have, this interior image of something that's absolutely perfect, and that's your signpost, your guide. And you'll never get there. But without it you'll never get anywhere."

by crazybones on Sep 28, 2010 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the difference is how much we dream... or for what

Count me among the easily satisfied… who can’t want anything so bad as to put himself at risk for anything, and rolls his eyes at the “that makes you less of a person/man” quotes.

by Chortles on Sep 28, 2010 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I also just don’t see how you can separate MMA from football, NASCAR and the like. If someone gives up on all of it, I can understand. Otherwise, it just looks uglier to them, and is probably safer…

What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?

by Kwisatz Haderach on Sep 29, 2010 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Didn't see Trembow's take on NASCAR

But I think he was consistent to an extent you find “understandable.” Sadly, even Bob Reilly was consistent… see his view on pro boxing.

by Chortles on Sep 29, 2010 1:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good article

With the shift to fighters going for winning and not just putting on shows for fans, like GSP, Fitch, Nate, and even now Melvin I hope this can help limit the amount of trauma the athletes endure over their careers

by ShogunJZ360 on Sep 28, 2010 5:41 PM EDT reply actions  

These guys are cagefighters.

They’re going to get hurt. That happens. It sucks. It really does. But for the most part I think hockey and football players are way worse off at the end of their time than the modern day MMA fighter. In every sport, people get hurt. Their quality of life after their heyday at the top of their sport is usually shit. We’re going have to deal with the fact that at the end of the day, that will come to most mixed martial artists. They get hurt. They bleed. It’s terrible. But then again they know the risks. They want to fight. We want to see them fight and will spend money so they do. So let’s not act all sad on behalf of these guys. They aren’t gladiators being forced to fight. They aren’t bums that people throw five bucks at to fight for amusement. They make a living by training and fighting. That is the life of the athletic profession they have chosen. Will it be sad when guys like Rampage, Leonard Garcia and Forrest Griffin are hobbled old men at age 40 because of the wars of attrition and the violent nature of their sport? Yes. But it’s what they do. If they don’t want it, they could walk away. With the number of gyms and fighters nowadays it seems like you can easily make a living as a local promoter, trainer or coach and not have to fight.

by Josh Grant on Sep 28, 2010 5:50 PM EDT reply actions  

I think they deserve some sort of retirement plan after destroying their bodies for our amusement.

by Rufford on Sep 28, 2010 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s called a savings account.

by Josh Grant on Sep 28, 2010 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

It should be called revenue sharing.

by memitim on Sep 28, 2010 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wish I could edit my last reply.

Yeah they generally get paid like shit (compared to boxers and most other athletes). But they get paid. They get sponsorships. Most of these guys already coach, own a gym, or train guys so they have that income. They do appearances. They can cowrite books. They could make like BJ and try to create a news website (for the sport and yes I realize his is retardedly biased to the idea that BJ is the best guy ever at anything, but hey he’s trying to get his name out there and get paid and that’s the main point here). So maybe they don’t live in a mansion. Maybe they can’t be Dana White and have 10 lambo’s. Maybe they don’t make 10million dollars over 162 games but they still get paid. Just don’t be stupid with your money. I know that’s hard. It’s damn hard. Hire a financial advisor; let someone who doesn’t get paid via punches in the face do it. But they can retire comfortably. Guys like Shamrock? Goodridge? They can’t because that was the real old days, when there was no money. There was nothing in this sport. Now there is something and I’m sure the paychecks will keep growing.

Look at Nate Marquardt. He’s not a world-beater. He’s not making Rampage/Brock/GSP money. Hell he’s barely a decent headliner for an UFN. But I met with his money and the money he gets from his gym, he could retire today and have a standard of living better than most people that teach.

by Josh Grant on Sep 28, 2010 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I bet with his money*

by Josh Grant on Sep 28, 2010 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

How many people can do these things, though? No one’s going to approach Mark Bocek (who’s a decent fighter) with a book offer, and I don’t think people are clamoring to be taught by him. The money issue is totally the UFC’s fault, though. They could stand to pay these guys a little more.

"There's this image that you have, this interior image of something that's absolutely perfect, and that's your signpost, your guide. And you'll never get there. But without it you'll never get anywhere."

by crazybones on Sep 28, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s just an example. But generally if you open a gym and advertise well in the community, people will come.

by Josh Grant on Sep 28, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

How many MMA trainers and gym owners do you know?

And how many of them have that as their only job?

"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe

by pdl on Sep 28, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mark Bocek was actually one of the Ferittitas BJJ trainers i believe, if not both of theirs.

by DirtyML on Sep 28, 2010 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

No mention of boxing?

I know football is the hot topic right now, but where is the outrage towards boxing by the media types. Now THOSE guys take some serious damage to the head over the course of their careers.

by BJJDenver on Sep 28, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah but there’s what like 10 boxers that matter left? Boxing’s mostly all local now, people should just be doing MMA anyway.

by Josh Grant on Sep 28, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

that last sentence is wrong in a lot of ways.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Sep 28, 2010 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was typing the same thing

But I was hoping someone who is better equipped than I would come along and do so.

/high five

Even the first part I disagree with, but “boxers that matter” is highly subjective so I won’t touch that.

"We should just concentrate on what we’re good at… Death Metal and interior design." – William Murderface

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Sep 28, 2010 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh my God I don’t care. Boxing is different. Yes they get fucked up. But honestly I barely consider it a sport. Christ, it’s a joke people.

by Josh Grant on Sep 28, 2010 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I care so very little. I care less than one molecule if you don’t like it.

by Josh Grant on Sep 28, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

But at least you have discussions with me about the other points I’m trying to make instead of just being a hypeman about how unfunny I am.

by Josh Grant on Sep 28, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

"We should just concentrate on what we’re good at… Death Metal and interior design." – William Murderface

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Sep 28, 2010 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Football players and hockey players have a union looking out for the players…

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Sep 28, 2010 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Yeah the football union is so good that the teams are voting to decertify their union just so they can’t be locked out. And let’s pretend the hockey union does something. What’s the last major thing they ever did to help their players? Cause a strike that crippled the league. And now we’re (how many years later?) and hockey is getting minor interest because of a good Olympic (holy shit the Olympics did something for a sport that’s played regularly and not just at the Olympics) and a pretty entertaining playoff stretch last year.

Is the union keeping pucks from flying at 100+ mph at small helmets? Is the union keeping teeth in their head? No.

by Josh Grant on Sep 28, 2010 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hockey helmets are so flimsy that they aren’t good for anything. Savard (maybe I forget) took an elbow with the helmet on in March and still was out through the end of the playoffs and might miss this entire season because of post-concussion syndrome. And that’s just an elbow. Not even the deadly puck.

by Josh Grant on Sep 28, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah but Savard took that elbow from the perennial douchenozzle Matt Cooke, blindsided and straight on the chin.

They should give out equal suspensions to represent the severity of the issue if the player is found guilty of intent to injure.

by DirtyML on Sep 28, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just because some unions are flawed

Is absolutely no indicator that others will be. To point out the faults of some sport unions, as an argument against the neccessity of unions for all professional athletes, is to ignore the conditions which make these organisations successful or not, and is a considerably weak argument. Sorry.

"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey

by Drunken cutman on Sep 28, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

A minor point in this context, but: the most recent work stoppage in the NHL was not a strike. It was a lockout.

by Finian1 on Sep 28, 2010 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Take a look at what NFL players make on average now

and the amount of revenue sharing that’s GUARANTEED as a part of their contracts with the league compared to before the strike. It can be argued the NFL strike was the best thing to ever happen to NFL players.

"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword

by duck on Sep 28, 2010 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

the NFL is a bad example

because they don’t take care of the retired players at the moment especially when it comes to health care. But I agree overall that MMA needs a union but one will probably never happen unless the UFC is the only promotion out there

by Matt D on Sep 28, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is there a sport with a union for the players that is spread out like MMA? The unions I know about have monopolies and even the minor leagues are owned by the majors.

by Rufford on Sep 28, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rather, the sports with unions are controlled by monopolies.

by Rufford on Sep 28, 2010 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

The idea that the unions are looking out for the players is silly

Both sides are looking out for their wallets. Nothing less, nothing more.

by jrobb20 on Sep 28, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

You'd have loved the 1830s

"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword

by duck on Sep 28, 2010 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Hey I grew up in Flint Mi in the 70’s and 80’s. I know what Unions are all about. Half of my family are members of the UAW. My grandfather was in the sit down strike of 1937 at the Fisher body plant. My cousin was a foreman at the Chevy truck plant, had to write a union guy up and the guy damn near killed him right there on the plant floor. Hit him over the head with a cam shaft. The union, just looking out for the welfare of their poor downtrodden middle class guy, defended the guy to the hilt and he was back on the line in a month. My cousin was given two choices go back and manage the same guy or quit.

The union and management are in it for the exact same thing. Greed. Only difference is that most of the time management is up front about it.

by jrobb20 on Sep 28, 2010 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

To be fair though the NHL does no drug testing at all, so they could be on roids the entire year, so the question of PEDs in the NHL is never really pushed or pressed, mostly because the Canadian sports media has nothing to gain from pushing that topic.

But they do have a union that makes sure there is a minimum pay scale, arbitration hearings, fines are given to the players association, and there is a way to voice a concern.

A union works a lot better in a team scenario, if not only because there is equality amongst teams in a league, whereas there is not quality amongst all the players in the league, so there are two sets of rules for unions to enforce and be effective doing so.

by DirtyML on Sep 28, 2010 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not true

The NHL has had a comprehensive drug testing policy in place since 2005. On top of that given that most hockey players get involved in international hockey at some point in their careers they’re also subjected to WADA level testing on a fairly regular basis.

Get your facts straight before you start talking about PEDs in hockey and the Canadian sports media.

"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
- Mike Fagan

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by Worldisart on Sep 28, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

WADA’s biggest beef with pro hockey has always been the lack of off-season testing. During the season, only one to three players per team face surprise tests. And only steroids and related substances are considered, leaving out recreational drugs and many stimulants.

by DirtyML on Sep 28, 2010 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

god damned quote system

WADA’s biggest beef with pro hockey has always been the lack of off-season testing. During the season, only one to three players per team face surprise tests. And only steroids and related substances are considered, leaving out recreational drugs and many stimulants.

The WADA agrees that the system is terrible as recently as today.
Ironically, in the Toronto Sun.

by DirtyML on Sep 28, 2010 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don't quote me anything from the Toronto Sun

That newspaper is nothing more than a tabloid, it runs quotes out of context and is often unapologetically factually wrong.

The NHL DOES test for recreational drugs, and they have for longer than they’ve tested for PEDs. And I know for a fact that more than three players per team are tested.

And regardless of both those things, it’s a far cry from your assertion that the NHL does NO testing whatsoever.

"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
- Mike Fagan

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by Worldisart on Sep 28, 2010 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh boy, another one of those “I know something is for sure and no facts you present will be acknowledged by my mind that has been made up already.”

Go read up on what the members of the WADA say about the testing like I did, or else you can just believe the hearsay you believe now. Good talk.

by DirtyML on Sep 28, 2010 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can believe the professional hockey players who have told me otherwise

And I take their word over anything from Dick Pound.

Dick Pound is leading the charge for a good cause but he’s also not a a very honest person.

"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
- Mike Fagan

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by Worldisart on Sep 28, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Football players and hockey players have a union looking out for the players…

NFL & NHL players have a union, but they only account for about 0.01% of the all the football/hockey players in North America. There are plenty of kids in the Pee Wee, High School and College ranks who are taking the same risks and have no union or even compensation for that matter. More deaths and career ending injuries happen in youth sports every year than have ever occurred at the professional levels.

by Steve4192 on Sep 29, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

So there should be a pee wee football union for children?

by who me on Sep 29, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

My only issue is...

…that the fighters are not fully educated before they come into the sport about the full implications or potential implications of participating. It would be nice if these fighters were fully informed as to how the sport could impact their quality of life in the future and then let them decide. If brain trauma wasn’t downplayed so much there could even be proactive studies/measures in place to minimize the damage. There was a study years ago on creatine cutting head trauma in half. I thought creatine would be THE supplement for combat athletes after that study came out but nothing came of it, again because, imo, the damage is downplayed—especially brain damage.

by SammyBeez on Sep 29, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

So

Lenz on the Ultimate Fighter is in really big trouble!

Seriously, not the point. However, smoking is big business and can afford to keep itself legal.

by BJJDenver on Sep 28, 2010 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

You have to smoke a ton of cigarettes to get messed up

but one bad blow to the head can kill you on impact or lead to problems mention in the above article later on in life… one cigarette isn’t going to do the same

by Matt D on Sep 28, 2010 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

That implies that smoking should be banned

Or that both should be, as opposed to neither.

"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey

by Drunken cutman on Sep 28, 2010 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Smoking should be banned.

It is a MASSIVE drain on the public health and creates BILLIONS of dollars every year in health care costs.

by Steve4192 on Sep 29, 2010 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Sure

Prohibition, that worked so well on that alcohol thing.

"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey

by Drunken cutman on Sep 29, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

And that marijuana thing.

by Rufford on Sep 29, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Smokers also reduce healthcare costs by dying off sooner than non-smokers.

by Graven Image on Sep 30, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which in turn raises the question of if this is a good thing

Considering how many may also be family breadwinners… or one of them, especially as more households may need multiple breadwinners just to stay afloat.

by Chortles on Oct 1, 2010 5:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think the key to solving the issue is a smoker’s union.

by DirtyML on Sep 28, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

We have a “smoker’s union” in my friend’s baseme…oh wait, you’re talking about cigarettes.

"There's this image that you have, this interior image of something that's absolutely perfect, and that's your signpost, your guide. And you'll never get there. But without it you'll never get anywhere."

by crazybones on Sep 28, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I was in the middle of a reply and got distracted by work

…but this is more or less what I was going to say.

A lot of the things that Trembow brings up might not be completely solvable, but the problems can certainly be mitigated by more responsible promotions, and even if promoters aren’t willing to step up, by better ACs, better judges, and better refs.

by kid_eh on Sep 28, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly. We can’t all lock ourselves in our houses and never run risks. We can, however, take measures to minimize those risks. I think a lot of this has to do with exactly who is going to be accountable and any cost associated with it.

by BJJDenver on Sep 28, 2010 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve had more than three concussions in my life and I have never played any sports at all. Heck I had three diagnosed concussions(and no teling how many undiagnosed ones) before I graduated high school. Getting knocked out and getting a concussion are two different things. I have only actually been knocked out twice in my life and both were from incidents that involved emergency medical treatment but you can get a concussion from a good blow to the head and not even feel that bad after a couple of minutes. Is MMA too violent, sure all sports are even baseball has it’s fair share of physical incidents, life in general is hard on the human body. Of course when you bring up people like Chris Benoit (one of his favorite wrestling moves was the top rope flyng headbutt) a man who quite probably suffered hundreds if not thousands of concussions in his 22 year pro wrestling career you are talking about extremes. Risk can never be erased, heck even if you banned all physical sports the risk will still exist, but they can be minimized if the will is there to do so. Sports are risky and contact sports are the riskiest of all, this isn’t some kind of new information, to see an episode of “real sports” and decide to give up on watching contact sports afterwards is…….well I’m not sure what it is but if you are going to get that worked up over a sports report then what’s going to happen any time you actually sit down and watch the evening news and actually pay attention. I watched a report on America’s infrastructure a couple of days ago and it made me worry that our whole way of life may soon come to an end but that didn’t stop me from using electricity or driving my car.

It was at the end with all the other stuff tossed in where the article lost me though. Collective bargaining has jack shit to do with concussions and a lack of worthwhile medical insurance and retirement plans isn’t a MMA issue it’s an issue that most of the citizens of the United States have to deal with in their day to day lives. Heck give them all the other stuff on a level that most people only dream of having and make them all billionaires and the issue of them destroying their health will still remain. The sport revolves around punching each other in the head and no amount of collective bargainning is going to many a damn difference to the main issue of the article. For that matter then greatest medical insurance known to man isn’t going to help with a brain disease/damage that can only be detected by the removal of the brain during an autopsy. Heck the NFL has all the things that MMA doesn’t and pays the kind of money that MMA may never be able to match but they have the exact same issues with this. He would of made a better point by keeping his issues separated into proper groupings, of course being as this seemed to be his Dear John letter to MMA I guess he didn’t want to write multiple articles on his way out the door.

by who me on Sep 28, 2010 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Yes

I mean you can get a concussion from hitting your head on the kitchen cabinet, which I probably have. It isn’t something exclusive to sports or a sport, but it is about minimizing risks. If NFL players can have improved headgear to minimize, then do it. Same for any sport and any injury, do what it takes to be as safe as possible, but yes, in the end, it is our individual choice what we decide is worth it to us. Sometimes, however, we need someone to step in for our own good.

by BJJDenver on Sep 29, 2010 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yea it was the idea that CTE could be caused by “fewer than three consussions”, if that’s the case then we need to mandate everyone wear protective helmets 24/7 to protect against it. If that’s the risk level threashold then anyone who gets out of bed at all is at significant risk over a lifetime. That sort of makes me second guess the science used here or at least the presentation of that information in this article. Heck there isn’t even a generally accepted medical definition of exactly what a concussion is and there are dozens of different grading scales for concussion severity that are used. Before they start deciding on what the effects of concussions are perhaps they should finally sit down and decide exactly what a concussion is.

That said yes they should do what they can to minimize all risk in all sports, of course there is going to be a limit to that, particularly in a sport where knocking your opponent unconsious is one of the end goals for the athletes involved.

by who me on Sep 29, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

At which point many MMA fighters will recoil and go "not me!"

`That is, re: needing an intervention… yes, an intervention.

by Chortles on Oct 1, 2010 6:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agree with much of this. However, I still think that training is probably the main culprit. A person can get badly knocked out a few times in competition and be alright, though of course that’s not a given. But taking endless series of milder punches in the head seems to me to be far more dangerous. I’m not a doctor. It’s just that from what I’ve read, it’s the rapid accumulation of smaller blows that can pile on top of each other in the course of a day of sparring that can really debilitate the brain and then hurt it again and again in short order. I also wonder who’s making sure that a guy who does get knocked out isn’t back to hard sparring in a week or two.

What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?

by Kwisatz Haderach on Sep 29, 2010 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wanderlei is probably a victim of hard training. He’s gotten noticeably slower in each of his recent fights (well, except the Bisping one, he looked the same). He’s talked about getting the “right kind” of training lately, which for him means sparring with guys that try to knock you out. I love Wanderlei, but his Chute Boxe style training is stupid.

"There's this image that you have, this interior image of something that's absolutely perfect, and that's your signpost, your guide. And you'll never get there. But without it you'll never get anywhere."

by crazybones on Sep 29, 2010 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I don’t know what could be done about that except education. You need to be used to getting hit to fight well. But I think guys could protect their chins much better by taking it easier, always sparring with headgear, and only occasionally training Chute Box hard.

What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?

by Kwisatz Haderach on Sep 29, 2010 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

But then they'd protest "we're not training as we fight!"

Reminds me of how Modern Army Combatives training is “limited” by the need to minimize injuries to soldiers that could render them non-deployable or a liability on foot.

by Chortles on Sep 29, 2010 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sure

This is where I have always brought up boxing in the past. Look at how those guys train, how many fights they have, how many amateur fights they have and so on. Can you eeven imagine a number of head blows they take over the course of their careers??? And they usually start at very young age.

by BJJDenver on Sep 29, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good for Mr. Trembow.

I worry about a lot of what he wrote and I even tried to write a FanPost about dangers of concussions and one night tournaments a few weeks ago. Maybe it was because my writing sucks but nobody really seemed to care. In fact people argued for one night tournaments because they are entertaining and that is how the sport started. Fighter safety takes a back seat to entertainment I guess. I wasn’t asking for outrageous stuff like headgear or anything like that. I was just saying we don’t need one night tournaments because they create unfair fights and increase the dangers for fighters. In my opinion a fight should be between 2 fresh fighters not 2 half worn out fighters that have already fought. Or in the case of the Shine final one fighter that has fought 5 minutes and another fighter that has fought over 20 minutes and lost once already. That finale was no where close to being a fair fight.

Having said that every sport involves some kind of risk of injury. Football, auto racing, boxing, and MMA all involve varying risks. Hell everyday life involves risk that will also vary depending on where you live. Athletes accept those risks and I think that is acceptable as long as we are still looking to improve safety at all times and keep those accepted risks to a minimum. Like no one night tournaments. Concussion tests like the NFL is doing now. Also the sufff BJJDenver mentioned above. Things like that need to be mandated to minimize the accepted risk the fighters have to take.

Just BE.

by mattman73 on Sep 28, 2010 5:59 PM EDT reply actions  

You know a great way to reduce concussions?

Stop being a cage fighter.

I’m being glib but there are some realities that are associated with the profession these men choose. They should have better health coverage and ACs should do a better job of screening these guys but at the end of the day these guys have chosen to make a living by getting in a cage with another human being who’s trying to hurt them.

You’ll always have articles pointing out the inherent dangers of professional combat sports. You’ll have journalists who think there is some kind of solution to Johnny Standandbangs bell getting rung up too many times. The reality is, the one solution is for him not to have become a pro fighter.

At the end of the day these are grown men who have made a choice, informed or otherwise. Nobody made them, and while I appreciate the entertainment provided me, I don’t have all that much sympathy for the consequences fighters suffer for their chosen profession.

Chuck Lidell could have been an accountant. He like many others chose their own road.

"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
- Mike Fagan

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by Worldisart on Sep 28, 2010 6:03 PM EDT reply actions  

Just because fighters choose to be fighters and accept those risks doesn’t mean safety should be ignored. The sport can still be looked at with a critical eye and safety improved without neutering the sport completely.

Just BE.

by mattman73 on Sep 28, 2010 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I never claimed it couldn't

But look, unless you’re going to eliminate strikes to the head, slams and any other maneuver that causes head trauma, every single fight is going to have the potential to end with one fighter suffering severe head injury.

I think there should be more stringent screening of fighters, I think a fighter should have to provide evidence of comprehensive health insurance to be licensed to fight and I think promoters should feel obligated to help fighters acquire said insurance. I think there should be a fighters association (not a union) that works with ACs and promoters to make sure fighters have the best medical care available to them and to make sure that fighters safety isn’t unnecessarily compromised.

But at the end of the day, when two men step inside a cage and have that gate locked behind them, all that goes out the window because the inherent nature of the sport dictates, is even sold upon, the notion of one punch or one kick to the head changing someone’s life.

"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
- Mike Fagan

Support independent artists
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by Worldisart on Sep 28, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is a very good article, and probably the first I’ve seen written by someone who obviously knows the sport.

There’s a very ugly side to what we’re watching, and no matter what you do the danger will still be there.

On the other hand, the entertainment value is enough for most of us to keep watching. The funny thing is how many people react badly to this guy pointing out the obvious fact that there’s a downside to the sport.

by TLow on Sep 28, 2010 6:04 PM EDT reply actions  

There are downsides to almost every sport.

Aside from maybe curling or golf most sports have risks. The writer points to MMA, boxing, and football as concussion related sports but how many baseball players do we see now wearing the Great Kazoo helmet because of concussions? All sorts of damage is done to the body in sports like hockey and soccer, including concussions. Even basketball has become a much more physical sport. Of course the likelihood is much higher in the three sports mentioned in the article and I agree that the fighters aren’t able to form unions or receive medical insurance from the organizations they work for is wrong. But, if you a re going to go on that premise then you have to stop supporting boxing, pro-wrestling, and WalMart.

by memitim on Sep 28, 2010 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's fair for him to turn away from MMA for this reason

But I never would. The element of danger is inherent in the sport—it’s why I’m on the edge of my seat for fighters who exacerbate it (Wanderlei Silva) and why I shrug at fighters who stymie it (Jon Fitch).

Fitzgerald and Bukowski likely wouldn’t be worth reading if they hadn’t drank their livers into submission. There must be things weighed — people might have helped them to put down the bottle and prolong their lives (or, in Bukowski’s case, made him less miserable). But we also would be without their great, immortal works.

Wanderlei Silva understands the risks of the sport in general and his fighting style in particular. But his artform would suffer if he shirked them. I could never be so disgusted that I turned away from a master at work. I guess that’s just my addiction.

"We should just concentrate on what we’re good at… Death Metal and interior design." – William Murderface

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Sep 28, 2010 6:04 PM EDT reply actions  

mma is no worse than football

or boxing or rugby or any other contact sport and they all have these problems

i dont think theres an answer either i think when these guys decide to play the sport for that long those things happen

i played football all through middle school and high school and have an ACL reconstruction, torn meniscus, separated shoulder, and numerous concussions to show for it

sadly its just the way contact sports are

We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!

by milk72 on Sep 28, 2010 6:18 PM EDT reply actions  

Even outside of what you consider "contact sports"

I have some fucked up canines from taking a line drive while on the mound. I don’t even remember the ball coming at me, I just remember looking at my bloody hand and being helped up. That shit was way worse than I ever got in a few years of trying my hand at boxing.

But that kind of danger isn’t even vital to baseball, whereas it is to football, combat sports, etc…

"We should just concentrate on what we’re good at… Death Metal and interior design." – William Murderface

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Sep 28, 2010 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Again, football, baseball..etc (except for boxing) have unions which is a very different thing in making sure the athletes that are taking the risks are looked out for.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Sep 28, 2010 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

understood

Just stating the inherent danger on the field of play.

"We should just concentrate on what we’re good at… Death Metal and interior design." – William Murderface

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Sep 28, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

yea but high school and college football dont

i woulda loved to see a check for my knee surgery, but i do agree with u a union of some kind to protect fighters in the future is necessary

We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!

by milk72 on Sep 28, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

It was my dad who footed the bill when I went to the hospital/dentist

"We should just concentrate on what we’re good at… Death Metal and interior design." – William Murderface

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Sep 28, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

not to get too political but this is a reason that “socialized medicine” would be the best thing in the world for MMA (and basically any other sport)

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by Brent Brookhouse on Sep 28, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

hold up let me go get brock lesnar to argue that

We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!

by milk72 on Sep 28, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

There was a huge outcry when my highschool was going to implement a policy for the football team that required health insurance to be on the team.

It got scrapped as soon as people realized the older kids who didn’t qualify for PeachCare anymore would have no insurance and thus couldn’t play.

"We should just concentrate on what we’re good at… Death Metal and interior design." – William Murderface

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Sep 28, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

So because some knucklehead wants to spend his days

getting punched in the face means he’s entitled to a portion of my paycheck?

by jrobb20 on Sep 28, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't actually think that's what he was implying

He also said not to get to political, so never mind.

"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey

by Drunken cutman on Sep 28, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

The reality is this. I wanted a secure paycheck and a stable life so I chose a profession that offered that. Other people want to choose a profession like MMA. Fine, but, when they do, they forfeit the right to act all surprised that the pay erratic and the insurance is expensive.

by jrobb20 on Sep 28, 2010 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah because the options for fighters from places like Brazil have so many options for making a living.

by memitim on Sep 28, 2010 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

FRom whatI hear a large percentage of fighters from Brazil who have a back ground in BJJ tend to grow up in a upper to middle class upbringing in brazilian society ? I myself always thought the same that most fighters from Brazil were poor but after listing to Breen on his radio show thats not so true.

BJJ is not to BIG as of yet in the Ghettos of brazilan cities. I guess you do have your fair share of cases of very poor fighters like Jussier da Silva who needed a fund started on MMA message boards to get him a plan ticket for his Shooto fight becasue he could not afford one and Junior dos Santos and Jose Aldo we all heard there stories but most who come from a BJJ background tend to grow up in a upper to middle class upbringing in Brazil ?

by Shocbomb on Sep 28, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jacare came from a poor background

by Holls Hoyce on Sep 28, 2010 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

If your name is or you are related to a Gracie you probably are doing ok. But guys like Bigfoot, Jacare, Wanderlei came from rough backgrounds. Those are just some I can think of. The point is there are a lot of fighters from all over the world that can avoid poverty thru fighting.

by memitim on Sep 28, 2010 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

 The Rua brothers well most old school Shootbox fighters grew up poor or not with the most money. I don’t think the NOG brothers from the stories I heard of there childhoods grew up with a silver spoon in there mouths eather

by Shocbomb on Sep 28, 2010 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can add Rousimar “I sleep under a bridge” Palhares to the list of poor Brazilians.

"There's this image that you have, this interior image of something that's absolutely perfect, and that's your signpost, your guide. And you'll never get there. But without it you'll never get anywhere."

by crazybones on Sep 29, 2010 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Who's acting all surprised?

It just sucks that fighters don’t get medical coverage and mostly have to work other jobs to support themselves. It shouldn’t have to be that way.

"There's this image that you have, this interior image of something that's absolutely perfect, and that's your signpost, your guide. And you'll never get there. But without it you'll never get anywhere."

by crazybones on Sep 28, 2010 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Especially if you are fighting for UFC who has revenue coming in like mad.

by memitim on Sep 28, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

It sucks that my daughter has a brain defect and I have to work my ass off to pay her medical bills. But I do it because I would never force anyone else to pay it for me.

by jrobb20 on Sep 28, 2010 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Getting too political.

I’m biting my tongue because this isn’t the place for this kind of discussion.

by memitim on Sep 28, 2010 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

And sorry about you daughter too. That does suck. I wish her and you the best.

by memitim on Sep 28, 2010 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks. I understand and respect your restraint. Not trying to bait anyone. I’m always amused when people bring up politics (Brent) and then say they don’t want to get all political.

by jrobb20 on Sep 28, 2010 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I feel for your daughter

and my cousins 35 year old wife, who got kicked out of the hospital when her insurance ran out and died two weeks later. They worked hard, paid premuims, and still were eaten up by the privatized system.
As for fighters, I think that many are really unaware of the ultimate risks, and there are those who you have to take the choice away of taking more risks than they should (Liddelll Shamrock, Jens…etc…)

by Dootch on Sep 28, 2010 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I have seen that stuff happen

My ex wouldnt be covered for her cancer treatment had to have her parents put a mortgage out on the house. She was lucky she had a house to put a loan out against. Shes ok now

by Papercut Elbow on Sep 29, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

The medical bills for my recent car wreck were well over $100,000, even with job provided medical insurance and personal injury insurance as part of my auto insurance plan I still will most likely end up with tens of thousands of dollars in medical bills that there is just no way for me to ever pay off.

Medical treatment cost are to the point now that even with decent medical insurance the cost for treatment can break a family. I feel for anyone who has had to go through cancer (or any serious disease) treatments not only for how bad it is to have a potentially fatal disease but for the way the cost of treatment can destroy a person financially.

by who me on Sep 29, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s actually a very good idea to have a portion of the revenues from whatever sport, be it MMA or NFL, go to creating a health insurance plan for the athletes for life after they have a certain amount of service time and always while they are employed.

by memitim on Sep 28, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I ask again only Zuffa fighters or all MMA fighters from every regional show across North america or maybe even world wide ?, This is another scenario thats almost impossible to implement / I actually thinks it is impossible. I just don’t see certain groups of fighters giving up a percentage of there money. And who sets these rules for how much fighters have to pay and what the % is. Do we start classing fighters in a A,B,C,D and E,system or something similar? Zuffa class A, Strike Force/Japan class B,regional MMA anything not zuffa or strike force class C and so on and so fourth. You have to stop thinking of MMA like a regualr sport. MLB, NBA, NFL,etc

by Shocbomb on Sep 28, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think you can make a case for Zuffa to have a medical plan that comes from the revenues generated for their fighters. NFL definitely should.

by memitim on Sep 28, 2010 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

milk72 and what percentage of MMA fighters would fall under this union. Only Zuffa fighters, or all mma fighters from across the world in every little mom and pop regional show going, A union is never going to happen in any combat sports bottom line. The structure is unlike anything in main stream sports. So lets thorw that idea out the window now.

by Shocbomb on Sep 28, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

i have no idea

i just wanna watch fights its not my job to take care of the guys and if i started arguing about this i’d be totally ignorant about the specifics

We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!

by milk72 on Sep 28, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Zuffa is big enough to let their fighters form a union and at the very least give their fighters medical. It’s the same argument that Jesse Ventura makes about the WWE.

by memitim on Sep 28, 2010 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

no company would just let there employees form a union. If a union was ever going to be in the UFC it would of been there buy now. To may fighters at the top to mid level are happy with what they make.

by Shocbomb on Sep 28, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn’t say Zuffa would let them. I said they should let them. It’s like WalMart. Should there be a union at WalMart. Absolutely. Will there be one. Not on WalMart’s life.

by memitim on Sep 28, 2010 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

something medical I can maybe see but Zuffa already pays for all in cage injuries. Just like all your employer has to pay for you is if you get hurt at work AKA workers compensation. You only get money if you get sick or hurt off work hours is if you pay into somekind of short trem/longterm disability or insurance.

by Shocbomb on Sep 28, 2010 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Zuffa makes enough money off their fighters that they could give them pensions and life long health care after a certain amount of years of service.

by memitim on Sep 28, 2010 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

sounds good I guess it could be a start for somekind of plan ? But sho gets that plan does every fighter who fights in Zuffa even if they are one and done get the same type of plan Say a 15 fight UFC vet gets ? I just see so many problems.

by Shocbomb on Sep 28, 2010 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, that’s why I said after a certain amount of service to the company and while employed there should be health insurance provided.

by memitim on Sep 28, 2010 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like it !!! Now thats one of the best plans I heard memitim and a real solution

by Shocbomb on Sep 28, 2010 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

See, now that’s some real bi-partisan work done there. Let’s write it up and send it to Dana.

by memitim on Sep 28, 2010 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I broke my Leg and suffered a low grade concussion playing cricket

Ran over the boundry chasing a high ball tripped over a cooler and landed head first on concrete.

by MattParker117 on Sep 28, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

@Milk72 - Rugby

….Did you see that ESPN 30 for 30 on the 1995(?) Rugby World Cup? Who was that jacked dude on New Zealand(?) that South Africa beat in the final? The guy was a cross between Jim brown and Christian Okoye and dudes were tackling him head first w/no pads!!! Now there’s a concussion! Rugby is no joke.

Kudus to the author. My favorite point was about the refs way too often being woefully out of position. No one likes an early stoppage, but for f#ck’s suck please grow a set and:

1-Be in close proximity to the action at ALL times (this requires being on the balls of the feet and not the heels)
2-RUN (don’t walk or shuffle) to intervene on behalf of the ko’d fighter
3-Be willing to absorb the occassional glancing blow off the shoulder, in order to preserve the health of the ko’d fighter

Until those 3 steps improved, these athletes are at risk than need be…

That was probably 2 posts thrown into one….oh well, I’ll never stop watching MMA, football, and hell even rugby when I find it….

by BrothersGottaAndyHug on Sep 28, 2010 6:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

i played rugby for my first semester at school

got a concussion and popped my shoulder out again, im too fragile for that sport its fuckin madness

and i agree on ur ref points, they gotta have some kinda intense classes to prepare them theres too many shitty refs out there

We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!

by milk72 on Sep 28, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Man, is everybody on BE Samuel L Jackson's character from Unbreakable?

Y’all make me feel like the only guy in the world who hasn’t had a fairly serious sports related injury. Unless… I’m Bruce Willis in Unbreakable? HAHA!

"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe

by pdl on Sep 28, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

i was a defensive end in high school

and at max weight weighed 197 lbs, never broke 200 i think that helped lead to my injuries 300 lb dudes falling on u hurts

and up until my senior year i never had anything too serious just a few concussions, then all the sudden i went from bruce willis to samuel l jackson and went from never bein hurt to a dislocated shoulder, and blown up knee in successive weeks, i was never the same again ill blow a knee out if i sneeze wrong now

We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!

by milk72 on Sep 28, 2010 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm reckless and stupid

with a long history of snowskiing (at a high level) water skiing, wakeboarding, rock climbing, and tennis. Also played baseball and basketball and did mountain biking trips when I was younger. Not to mention a decent amount of weight lifting, conditioning, body surfing, and MMA training. I’m a pretty active guy and have never had an injury that put me out of commission for more than two days. Worst I’ve had is chipped teeth, but I played through that both times and didn’t miss any time.

"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe

by pdl on Sep 28, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Does this make us allies or enemies?

While we could be a crime fighting or criminal duo, two indestructible beings locked in eternal combat could probably draw pretty well.

"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe

by pdl on Sep 28, 2010 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

depends on what you consider "fairly serious"

I’d consider my most serious injury to have come off the athletic field, whilst singing the Spanish version of Christina Aguilera’s “Beautiful”

"We should just concentrate on what we’re good at… Death Metal and interior design." – William Murderface

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Sep 28, 2010 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

one bad ufc card

after brocktober check out what this place will be like

We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!

by milk72 on Sep 28, 2010 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

For those of you wondering. The hbo special was real sports with bryant gumbel this month. I really recommend all of you watch it. I actually had a similar feeling after watching it and thinking about chuck, james toney, and all the other guys that have taken one too many shots to the head. Real scary stuff.

by chunkyass on Sep 28, 2010 6:23 PM EDT reply actions  

HBO special or not the bottom line its there choice to fight and take those risk. No one forces any prize fighter to fight for his income in MMA,Boxing, K-1,etc or any combat sport.Its all buy choice and when people fight bad things tend to happen and I as a fan like to watch those bad things happen.

by Shocbomb on Sep 28, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sounds to me like a cry for a union.

Medical – check
collective bargaining- check
medical – check
pensions- check

When I truly am a fan and enjoy something, I look past the short comings and enjoy the essence of competition. If he really was a fan, he still has to be. I was a HUGE boxing fan during the 80s, I hate the current state of boxing, the promoters, the cheats, the ducking of opposition but guess what. I still find myself tuning in and watching. Boxing long term effects on fighters is very well documented, don’t see people fighting it. And as a whole, boxers make less than MMA guys do.

His article was a “hit grab” and nothing more.

by Riney on Sep 28, 2010 6:27 PM EDT reply actions  

The issue isn't about the danger of the sport

No one can deny MMA is dangerous. It’s that the fighters are not properly informed about the long term effects of what they are doing. The medical community doesn’t even have a full grasp of the long term effects. So fighters might say they understand and are okay with the risks, but their decision is being based on incomplete information.

by Matt D on Sep 28, 2010 6:27 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I’m sure a lot of fans feel the same way Dana does

"You really, really need to show up and deliver. This is a job."
"You go to your job and don’t perform; what will happen? And when people say, ‘Hey, these guys put their lives on the line,’ that’s a crock of s—. This sport is so safe. These guys have chosen to be fighters!"
"These guys aren’t going in to Afghanistan," he said. "The US military puts their life on the line. Police, firefighters walk into the line of fire … UFC fighters do not. These are smart guys with college educations. If they don’t want to do this, go out and get a real job."
- Dana discussing cutting fighter if they don’t perform.

I can take Dana and his promoter talk with a grain of salt, but I found this pretty condescending to the fighters.

As for Trembow, I can sympathize. I have the same feelings about the barbarism of mma (and football) every time a Perosh/Cro Cop or Goodridge/Anybody bout is made. It’s he same feelings that made me turn away from boxing for a few years.

by John Nash on Sep 28, 2010 6:30 PM EDT reply actions  

nit-picking with DW

“college education” should be taken with a grain of salt. I know plenty of people who are technically “college educated” and plenty others who dropped out of HS at 16 years old, plenty of the latter are way smarter than the former.

"We should just concentrate on what we’re good at… Death Metal and interior design." – William Murderface

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Sep 28, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

More like "college isn't about the degree, it's about whether you grew up"

Got a political science bachelor’s degree, but do I feel that it was worth it? I don’t know… considering so far the only job I WANT to do is video game retail.

by Chortles on Sep 28, 2010 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I prefer “college isn’t about the degree, it’s about letting employers know you’re willing to do lots of mind-numbing, purposeless paperwork on a regular basis.”

But I guess that’s not as pithy.

"There's this image that you have, this interior image of something that's absolutely perfect, and that's your signpost, your guide. And you'll never get there. But without it you'll never get anywhere."

by crazybones on Sep 29, 2010 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sadly, I couldn't even do that

Graduated, but… no 4.0 GPA student, that’s for sure.

by Chortles on Sep 29, 2010 2:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

The suicide-part is weak

There are only few cases and even moreso, many MMA fighters have a very troubled upbringing. It is often times what makes these guys fighters in the first place. They could be mentally predisposed to be suicidal as fighters (after all they are entering a cage to fight another high-level hurt-machine…that takes a certain mindset to begin with)

Other than that a very strong article. I guess what it comes down to is: I love MMA, it is great entertainment and an intriguing sport to watch and figure out. The thought that these guys are wreaking themselves is sad. But ultimately I guess I just don’t give enough of a shit. It’s their choice to do it and it’s not like I didn’t know that what they did could potentially cripple their body or mind if anything goes wrong from the start.

To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.

by KGNLuc on Sep 28, 2010 6:33 PM EDT reply actions  

Your first point is very relevant and one of the most profound issues with this piece.

It took years for there to be a study that showed suicidal teens were more likely to listen to metal, rather than people playing with numbers to say metal music increases suicide rates. I can’t help but see a similar argument here. Correlation, causation, all that good fun.

"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe

by pdl on Sep 28, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rec'd for being the clearest about THE underlying issue / reason behind all this

That is, “For all the talk about fighter-safety and how much someone cares, we all can’t really give a shit – because otherwise MMA would probably have to go away (yes, the same is true for other sports).”

Ivan Trembow’s the only fan who could force himself to live up to his own principles. The rest of us… remind me of fiddling while Rome burns. :) For the record, if I sound condemning of us MMA fans, it’s completely hypocritical. ;-)

Mindja, I’d say rather that it’s not that we don’t want Gurgel to go back out… it’s that we want him to USE THAT DAMNED BLACK BELT JITS ALREADY.

by Chortles on Sep 28, 2010 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

If the sport wasn’t violent then I doubt any of us would be watching it to start with. It’s not like we are all paying to see professional chess PPVs here.

by who me on Sep 28, 2010 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sadly, you just paraphrased Bob Reilly :)

In his “legalize MMA but without GNP allowed, because I know that the fans won’t be fans without the violence.”

In fairness, he’s claimed that he’d neuter pro boxing too if he could, which’d probably cause their fandom to dive even more, lol.

by Chortles on Sep 28, 2010 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

He wants pro boxing to be like amateur boxing and would be fine with MMA if it was done in an amateur style too. Of course no one would watch that. It’s not just MMA it’s pretty much all contact sports, the violence is a big part of what makes them popular. It’s always been a part of our lives and part of the population’s entertainment. That’s part of where Reilly’s “it’s too violent” arguement falls apart, live regulated MMA in New York doesn’t mean that people in his state aren’t exposed to all kinds of violent content every day. You can’t hardly turn on the tv or play a video game or even read a book without it being exposed to violent material. Saying the sport is dangerous it one thing but saying it’s too violent is very different, too violent compared to what?

by who me on Sep 29, 2010 7:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Paraphrasing a Reilly reaction here

Doesn’t mean I shouldn’t oppose it just because there’s other sources of violent influence… in fact, tell me more, I’ll get right on them.

by Chortles on Oct 1, 2010 6:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

I totally agree except for one thing.

I hate Gurgel and I was pleading with my TV to not let him back in.

And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
Twitter me and what not.

by James Brady on Sep 29, 2010 3:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Me too. But I felt it goes without saying that there are many shades of grey between black (“If the first guy dies, I hope I can see it live!”) and white (“This shit needs to stop!”). Also it was a little more poignant to write it the way I did ;)

And on the other hand: when I saw Stefan Struve live at UFC 99 and he was bleeding all over the ring like he had been shot, I was also wondering “shouldn’t they stop that fight?” (also because here in germany the sport is under much scrutiny and this was certaily not the image that should’ve been presented on its first showing in my country). But when Struve made his comback victory against Stojnic, it was absolutely feakin’ awesome. The entire arena was roaring. So…I guess if Gurgel had surprised me and somehow managed to win…or maybe just to stick around, I would have liked that. It that display of tremendous will or “heart” as the announcers usually call it, that appeals to me and inspires a certain admiration for someone being able to be so tough. But I guess if I really cared about the fighters well being, than I should be thinking “man, he really is overdoing it. somebody throw the towel? Where are BJs cornermen when you need them?!” (remember how everybody was giving them shit for REALLY caring abour their fighter who simply took a pounding?).

To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.

by KGNLuc on Sep 29, 2010 4:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hey, we were thinking that about Jan Finney

As well as it being our feeling when it comes to “good” stoppages.

by Chortles on Oct 1, 2010 5:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Rec’d because you have some good points, and more importantly I laughed at the office / zoo thing! I’ve been there too, it’s not a happy place..

by Horselover Fat on Sep 28, 2010 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not that funny

I’ve worked an office job for like 3 months total and I still can’t understand how people can do it for 40 years. I’d rather suck dick or something, at least you have flexible hours.

"There's this image that you have, this interior image of something that's absolutely perfect, and that's your signpost, your guide. And you'll never get there. But without it you'll never get anywhere."

by crazybones on Sep 28, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I was in that boat, selling real estate.

I quit an opened a home renovation business.

by 79guy on Sep 28, 2010 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

It depends on the quality of your life outside of work. If your home life sucks too, then your life’s a mess. If your home life is good, then it can be ok to have a steady, predictable job that pays enough and doesn’t take up your nights and weekends.

by Finian1 on Sep 28, 2010 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yah pretty much

Because the physical harm DOES affect quality of life, and even the quality of experiences is relative. Some of us really are disposed as not thrill-seekers, who don’t ask for much out of life and are easier satisfied; like Trembow, I’m in it for the techniques. The would be… higher achievers or “more fulfilled” may sneer as us “sheep” with “boring” lives, but I’m not gonig to be feeding them when they can’t do it themselves because they got off on choking their own necks one too many times. ;)

Wait, did I just make a brain damage / breathplay joke in a morality post? Oh my.

by Chortles on Sep 28, 2010 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Qualitative measurements of life are hard to define, because many people enjoy different things.

I think the quantitative measurement is assuming that you will be spending your life enjoying these quality things for a longer period of time, not that because you lived to be 95 years old but were a vegetable for the last 50 years that you had a better life than a playboy who died at 60.

by DirtyML on Sep 28, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Those things are 100% individual choices, there is no true qualitative measurements to be had on the population as a whole. Heck not only are those individual choices they are choices that don’t even remain the same during a person’s life. for the first 20 years of my life I wished I was older and had more control over my life and for the second 20 I have wished I was younger and had less responsibility. When I was 10 I wished to be a ninja, when I was 20 I wanted to be an engineer, by the time I was 35 I didn’t want to be anything and wished I could go back to being 20 again. People are going to make the choices they make and those are all personal to them.

by who me on Sep 28, 2010 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lets

Get rid of the ramp!

by ihateemo on Sep 28, 2010 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

GODDAMMIT!

Try again.

Everybody hates their job. I’d rather be a Fucking Fighter and probably would have tried if I’d gotten into the sport when I was 22 as opposed to being 30 now. :(

Get rid of the ramp!

by ihateemo on Sep 28, 2010 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rec'd. I'd rather live fifty years

if I got to live my dream life in my dream job, instead of a 100 years in a shitty one. I worked at a call center at a financial institution for three years, tethered to my desk with a headset, answering the most inane phone calls and dealing with some very angry customers. I couldn’t get away for five minutes without my boss getting on my case. I felt like a prisoner in my cubicle. I firmly believe humans weren’t meant to live that way, which is why I exercise and enjoy the outdoors as much as I can. I still work at that financial institution, but I have a much better job and my own office. It’s a bit better, and I get to come and go as I please, with a pension and good extended health, but I’d trade it all for my dream job. Sometimes I envy fighters who can make it doing the thing they love.

by pud333 on Sep 28, 2010 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Therein lies that problem... everyone wants to be "that guy," no matter how much outside circumstances really limit who can ever attain it

Irrespective of peoples’ thinking that "the key is to "… there will still be an outside limitation, you can .

Reminds me of one guy’s saying… so many people would rather think of the idea of war heroes than of the fact that some wars’ outcomes were effectively decided the years before, by the pre-war mobilizations and economic policies cough World War II cough

by Chortles on Sep 29, 2010 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

it being "too" violent or not

completely depends on a person’s view of violence. Some people love the Saw movies, and some people can’t even stand a papercut. It’s all about your threshold.

Great article, though.

I’ve got big walnuts. Gorilla nuts.

by Austin Martin on Sep 28, 2010 6:35 PM EDT reply actions  

Is real vs fake a measure used to judge the effects of viewing violent material on human beings? Video games are blatantly fake but they get a lot of flak, heck music with violent lyrics aren’t even actually violent yet they are classified as being “too” violent for public consumption by lots of people. Generally when this comes up it is talking about “too violent to be viewed by the public” not “too dangerous for the contestants”. In MMA the violence is real so it turns out to be basically the same thing but that doesn’t mean that it is any better or worse than movies or video games in terms of the viewing audience.

by who me on Sep 29, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am sure this is why Mousasi plans to retire at 30.

I wonder what the instance of CTE is in Thai boxers from thailand that start competition at a much earlier age than most MMA fighters?

It is a choice to fight in a cage however, if that is your career choice and you don’t get a pension, how is it any different from the career choice of a miner that has no pension or another unfortunate trade that succumbs to the dangers of the workplace over time?

It is violent, but all the downsides are due to piss poor regulation.

Fines for hitting people late would be a great idea.

by DirtyML on Sep 28, 2010 6:39 PM EDT reply actions  

The question, “is MMA too violent?” is like most things in life opinion/personal preference. I have not formulated a concise answer yet in my mind but the first thing I find funny is that the most burning question right now in our sport is the trend towards “lay and prey” and not knockout or submissions finishing fights in contrast to an article talking about the dangers of the sport.

The original Real Sports special that this recent update segment builds on also mentions the idea that the NFL should consider playing without helmets and fewer pads to help cut down on devastating hits. I personally think this would never work (and will never happen) but would the MMA equivalent be no gloves to keep from throwing bombs? Just brain fodder…

by troutki on Sep 28, 2010 6:50 PM EDT reply actions  

I read this thing on Mania earlier, he makes a good argument. I’m getting increasingly worried about this whole getting hit in the head & concussion thing, and it’s long term effects. And I haven’t even read much about it.. that being said, I’ll continue to watch other people fighting, but I’m a bit hesitant to get into it too much myself.

by Horselover Fat on Sep 28, 2010 7:03 PM EDT reply actions  

well done and thought provoking

The only two sports I really care about are MMA and football, and I don’t anticipate that I’ll stop watching either of them anytime soon, but the author lays out an excellent case about the perils of this sport and the reality for athletes. At the least it reinforces for me a desire to see these fighters get a bigger piece of the pie, and some sort of health care protection.

What the author can’t answer and can’t know is what would become of fighters if outlets like MMA didn’t exist. Many men are simply wired to be aggressive. While there are certainly some fighters who could probably thrive in other professions, many would not, and many would fight anyway in far less safe settings.

Ultimately, I think that professional MMA and professional football need to be honest about the risks that face their athletes. They should acknowledge the danger, do what they can within the parameters of the sport to minimize that danger, and do what they can financially to support and protect those fighters that succumb to it.

Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.

by Dave Strummer on Sep 28, 2010 7:09 PM EDT reply actions  

We are just seeing first hand how time and the rigors of competition have decimated first generation MMA stars like Ken Shamrock, Jens Pulver, and Kazushi Sakuraba. In time will all our heroes be shells of themselves, barely capable of functioning in society

This could be you putting the cart before the horse. The mentality of someone who would be a pro fighter would often indicate social issues. Not to mention someone will to be a fighter in the pioneering days.

This reminds of an argument where a Christian said “One thousand gays polled said they had bad relations with their father. So this is the cause of being gay.”

I say, “They felt they had a bad relationship because they were gay and never knew how to say it.”

by 79guy on Sep 28, 2010 7:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Wasn't it Pulver's choice to keep fighting?

As opposed to staying as a WEC commentator or “non-fighting” official/PR guy, which WAS one of those “post-fight career” things. Could be that he had the same issue as Liddell… has so much more consciously-perceived stress OUTSIDE the cage than inside.

Shamrock is apparently more complicated than merely this (though his money woes combined with his personal issues may merely be “his own” or just the most high-profile example of something that could unfortunately be the norm)… while Sakuraba, I don’t know what to think anymore.

by Chortles on Sep 28, 2010 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

He was already a commentator for the WEC, he stopped doing that when he asked for his release.

by who me on Sep 29, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

This article is a sobering read for sure

…and anyone who reads it objectively would have a hard time disputing its conclusions. MMA is a brutal sport , like football and boxing. The guys who participate in this sport are literally risking their well being for our entertainment as well as the money and glory of being a professional fighter.

This does kind of make GSP and Greg Jackson’s low-risk fight strategies seem quite apropos, no?

by Anton Chigurh on Sep 28, 2010 8:33 PM EDT reply actions  

Dunno if Greg Jackson ever went on the record

But see the old GSP post about him calling himself a cautious fighter and refusing to apologize for or hide it, not to mention him saying, paraphasing here, “I won’t name names, but you can tell who can’t take a punch anymore.”

And of course, see Big Nog. Didn’t one of the FightMetric guys admit that their rating/fight evaluation system doesn’t like the way the Nogueiras fight?

by Chortles on Sep 28, 2010 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Respect. Great article.

I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
But I won’t pick against Jon Jones again until I see him lose. - Kwisatz Haderach

by vivero on Sep 28, 2010 8:45 PM EDT reply actions  

I respect what Trembow is doing, but if we want to be consistent about this sort of thing we need to look at all the products we consume. The clothes I have on, the food I eat, the computer I’m using, chances are that someone was harmed or mistreated doing work that led to the final product. Usually, I choose not to think about it. This is understandable, and maybe even necessary, but strictly speaking it’s probably not ethical. It’s one thing to be concerned about Wanderlei Silva’s well-being, but it takes more effort to be aware of the well-being of some unknown person in Jamaica or China who makes stuff for us.

My point is that Trembow’s argument makes sense as far as it goes, but it is an argument that he could make about a thousand other products that he is probably going to keep using. That people are harmed to entertain us is one of the basic facts of modern consumer society, and we shouldn’t pretend that sports are unusual in that regard.

by Finian1 on Sep 28, 2010 8:47 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Knowledge of it is the difference.

I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
But I won’t pick against Jon Jones again until I see him lose. - Kwisatz Haderach

by vivero on Sep 28, 2010 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Perhaps that’s true, but the reason that I don’t know the conditions under which my t-shirt was produced is that I don’t want to know. The decision to gain the knowledge necessary to make an ethical decision is part of the process of making that ethical decision. I don’t escape responsibility for my part in an unethical activity simply by refusing to find out if I am involved in an unethical activity or not.

by Finian1 on Sep 28, 2010 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

To add to my previous reply, a quote from the homophobia thread

" Ethics are a luxury only the poor can afford." – B.H. Farnsworth

If the rich or even the so-called middle class ever thought that way… I fear that we’re creeping closer and closer to that day. :(

by Chortles on Sep 28, 2010 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ok, I’ll ask. Are you saying that if people begin making ethical purchasing decisions, society will be destroyed?

by Finian1 on Sep 29, 2010 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hopefully not...

Though it certainly wouldn’t resemble what we have now. What I’m perturbed by is the possibility of the rich or so-called middle class starting to think “I can’t afford ethics and have as much money/status/whatever.”

by Chortles on Oct 1, 2010 5:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

…… Trembow doesn’t know about the poor working conditions in third world nations?

by who me on Sep 28, 2010 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I respect his decision

But that means he can’t watch ANY contact sport. That’s gonna be a boring life without sports.

by pud333 on Sep 28, 2010 9:07 PM EDT via mobile reply actions   1 recs

Is Nascar a contact sport? Can’t watch that either. Is Skateboarding a contact sport? Can’t watch that either. Not much goes on in the sporting world that doesn’t risk a concussion.

by jrobb20 on Sep 28, 2010 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Badminton is all the sport you’ll ever need.

"There's this image that you have, this interior image of something that's absolutely perfect, and that's your signpost, your guide. And you'll never get there. But without it you'll never get anywhere."

by crazybones on Sep 28, 2010 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

He should probably avoid most sports, not to mention any tv show, stage show or movie that involves any kind of stunt work too.

by who me on Sep 28, 2010 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you are reading a book filled with stories of violence is that helping or hurting the situation? If you stay in your house reading books then are you getting enough exercise to keep yourself healthy? This stuff is all so complicated……

by who me on Sep 28, 2010 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Heh

Depends — but there’s certainly no real-world physical harm, unless it’s a story recap of an actual incident. :P

As for being a bookworm… for me walking to work and back is enough physical exertion, as merely trying to sit upright can cause me to gas.

by Chortles on Sep 28, 2010 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

but there’s certainly no real-world physical harm, unless it’s a story recap of an actual incident.

Or the book incited people to do physical harm. When people talk about there being too much violence in society they are talking about exposure not actual physical harm, video games and music apparently incite our youth. I would assume that the same could be said about books (if “our youth” actually read them anymore). I should point out that I don’t agree with the “incite our youth” crap, I never felt that reading a book or playing a video game incited me or anyone I grew up with to be violent(some were violent to start with).

It took me three attempts to get out of bed this morning, apparently sleeping was too much exercise for me. :D

by who me on Sep 29, 2010 8:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

re: "incite our youth"

That assumes too charitable a view of our youth. ;-)

by Chortles on Oct 1, 2010 6:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Antonio McKee had a good point in an interview I heard with him

I’m paraphrasing but basically what he said when talking about his “boring” style was “If you had a family member involved in MMA, which has no union, no health insurance, etc. would you want them to fight like Chuck, or would you want them to fight like me?”

"The only freakshow's the one in my pants"
-James Toney

by chasethegoose on Sep 28, 2010 11:03 PM EDT reply actions   2 recs

Even if they had a union and health insurance they would still be exposed to the physical damage and long term effects of it. Look at the NFL, they do have those things and it still doesn’t stop them from ending up crippled and poor by the time they are 40. Physical damage to the body (and particularly the brain) is a very different issue than MMA having union representation or union provided health care while they are fighting, quality of life at a older age is going to suffer regardless. People like to lump these issues all together but they are very different things. Antonio McKee’s style may protect him from short term damage to his body but it also protects him from making Chuck Liddell level money fighting too and I’m willing to bet both of them will have medical issues later in life due to being involved in a contact sport.

This couldn’t be the right room. It was only a clinic door, but when he swung it open, Wesley Walls passed through a portal to his future. He stood among bingo-hall sharks with their sock-hop memories, their early-bird dinner plans and their new ceramic hips. Just 41 in December 2007—four years removed from a career as a Pro Bowl tight end—Walls found himself stretching with the oldies after hip-replacement surgery at a facility in Charlotte. “I was doing physical therapy with some of my parents’ friends,” he told me six months after his surgery. “It was like, Hey, you’re that Walls kid, right? I thought, Man, I am too young to be in here. This can’t be happening, not this soon.”

The math is cruel. Studies estimate that an NFL player will lose an average of one to three years of life expectancy for every year he spends in the league. Is 40 the new 65 for pro football veterans? Many recently retired players find themselves rehabbing in the company of geriatrics because of the damage inflicted by a 16-game season. “We think we can play forever,” says Rich Gannon, the 2002 MVP who played 17 years at quarterback and suffers from chronic pain in his knees and neck, among other areas. “But the thing that’s really dawned on me is that I’m 44 years old and I’ve already had two knee surgeries, two shoulder surgeries and I broke my neck in 2004. I really felt like when I retired I was out of the woods, but I’ve had all kinds of issues.”

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1173840/index.htm

In a less public way, other athletes from the nation’s three biggest and most profitable leagues—the NBA, NFL and Major League Baseball—are suffering from a financial pandemic. Although salaries have risen steadily during the last three decades, reports from a host of sources (athletes, players’ associations, agents and financial advisers) indicate that:

• By the time they have been retired for two years, 78% of former NFL players have gone bankrupt or are under financial stress because of joblessness or divorce.

• Within five years of retirement, an estimated 60% of former NBA players are broke.

• Numerous retired MLB players have been similarly ruined, and the current economic crisis is taking a toll on some active players as well. Last month 10 current and former big leaguers—including outfielders Johnny Damon of the Yankees and Jacoby Ellsbury of the Red Sox and pitchers Mike Pelfrey of the Mets and Scott Eyre of the Phillies—discovered that at least some of their money is tied up in the $8 billion fraud allegedly perpetrated by Texas financier Robert Allen Stanford. Pelfrey told the New York Post that 99% of his fortune is frozen; Eyre admitted last month that he was broke, and the team quickly agreed to advance a portion of his $2 million salary.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1153364/index.htm

by who me on Sep 29, 2010 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree that a union or health insurance wouldn't protect against head injurees

But I don’t think the two issues are completely separate. Imagine if the NFL had no health insurance or union and players were asked to pay for their own medical treatment. There are problems regardless, but there would be way more problems otherwise. Quality of life is going downhill regardless, but it’ll go downhill a lot faster without access to top of the line health care.

And as for the Liddell/Mckee thing, I think his point still stands, though you’re right that it doesn’t really have much to do with the concussion debate. He was just explaining that it was unreasonable for people to expect fighters to let their heads get bashed in when the reward is so small and the dangers are so high. It’s like tight rope walking without a net.

"The only freakshow's the one in my pants"
-James Toney

by chasethegoose on Oct 1, 2010 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Disclaimer: I’ve grown up in a culture that would probably look fire engine red communism to many Americans and no doubt that has influenced my thinking, but I’m still going to toss in my .02$

Fighters are a different breed and I am not one of them. I can claim interest in trying my hand in some grappling but the thought of getting punched in the face… no, not for me. Still, I can understand that some have the drive inside them to go into the cage, ring, mat, tatami, whatever and see who’s best – at full contact, if need be. It is a choice they’ve made – and like the rest of us, they get to sleep in the bed they’ve made for themselves. I think quite a few of them will sleep very soundly indeed.

However, is it possible to consider protecting the fighters from themselves? Is it unjustified for a fan (as an individual and as a part of the community, such as there is) to care for the fighters’ wellbeing in exchange of the entertainment they’ve provided? Can it be permissible for the sport to try and protect its participants – for the good of not only the individual fighters but the sport entire?

It is a difficult line to draw – how can MMA on one hand retain its nature and on the other hand protect the fighters? Rules have already come a long way from the early days and many, many fighters can thank that for being healthy in the years to come. As much drama as it will cause, I think the sport will develop even further from the ‘original’ no holds barred rules (think UFC 1).

Don't like wrestling in MMA? Go watch K-1.
Can't deal with the occasional boring fight? Let me introduce you to ROH.

Dear Mr. White - would it kill you to drop a few f-bombs less?

by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Sep 28, 2010 11:15 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Wow, someone who actually is honest about MMA and is a fan, gasp! MMA is a violent dangerous sport, due to the smaller gloves and often brawling style of fighting it can be worse than boxing and of course the damage to the body is much worse..

I am free because I choose to be so-Me

by Kefka on Sep 28, 2010 11:16 PM EDT reply actions  

The smaller gloves do not make MMA more dangerous than boxing. I’m not a physicist or a cage fighter, but my understanding is that the larger, more cushioned gloves let you hit your opponent in the head harder and more often without injuring your hands. In terms of TBI it would be safer if they got rid of the gloves completely.

by Finian1 on Sep 29, 2010 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

That can be the case

But it isn’t neccessarily one way or the other.

One thing that is certain, is that the forced implementation of gloves in MMA allow fighters to hit much harder than if they were fighting bare – knuckle style.

"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey

by Drunken cutman on Sep 29, 2010 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

So for the sake of mitigating CTE, ban the gloves

So as to force fighters to punch more lightly for the sake of their hands? Your idea intrigues me.

by Chortles on Oct 1, 2010 6:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

omg grow a pair

a appreciate your honesty and hope you stick to your words but grow a pair

by four20 on Sep 29, 2010 3:35 AM EDT reply actions  

The right answer was to not get an iPhone :)

Considering that in addition, apparently the iPhone’s popularity ended up dragging down AT&T’s service due to it being swarmed with iPhone users…

by Chortles on Oct 1, 2010 6:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

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