Japanese MMA Still in Trouble, DREAM.16 Ratings Down
by Nate Wilcox on Sep 27, 2010 8:45 AM EDT
in Asian MMA News
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Head Kick Legend reports:
FEG was able to come to terms with WVR and acquire Satoshi Ishii for a fight at DREAM.16. The problem? The fight was announced within days of the event, allowing FEG and TBS to do minimal promotion for the event. This all led to what turned out to be less-than-stellar ratings for DREAM 16, with Ikuhisa Minowa vs. Satoshi Ishii as a strong draw in the press, but only Ishii's second bout on Japanese soil and Ishii doing very little press since the loss in December.
The final ratings for the event were 11.9%, almost a full point decline from their last primetime event, DREAM.11. With FEG in dire straights, one has to wonder how this looks to investment bank PUJI as well as what this means for the TBS/FEG relationship.
More bad news for Japanese MMA. FEG pulled out the stops for what may be the very last DREAM show ever, but it may have been too little, too late.
American fans may not care or may even celebrate a jingoistic triumph of the collapse of Japanese MMA, but those of us with memories remember that Japanese fans kept the sport alive and growing ten years ago when American authorities and cable companies nearly succeeded in driving the sport into the ground.
Losing the Japanese market as a major outlet for MMA is a loss for the sport. It will mean less money for promoters and fighters, fewer options for fans and a diminished MMA world.
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Most of the fighters on DREAM's roster also have Strikeforce deals so they'll be ok
As for the the rest the WEC’s featherweight division is great home for Bibi Fernandes and Ishida as for the rest apart from depending his situation with Strikeforce Aoki there’s no one avaliable on the DREAM that would interest Zuffa.
Things have been bad for a while over there, so I don’t know how much announcing the Ishii fight earlier would have done, but it should have helped some.
I have no idea why they keep doing this last minute matchmaking. they don’t have the starpower they did in Pride, and even then, you would at least know that the stars were going to be on the card a little in advance.
It would be great if they got their shit together and could do well.
Dream really did do it to themselves but it is hard not to worry about MMA in Japan once the biggest employer is gone. There doesn’t look to be any organization set to move up and take their place.
by who me on Sep 27, 2010 9:41 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I know this sounds selfish...
but maybe if Dream does collapse as a promotion, maybe we will see more of their stars like, Alistair Overeem, Bibiano Fernandes, Mayhem, Aoki, Hellboy Hansen, Kid Yamamoto, Gegard Mousasi, etc fight more in US promotions, since Japan’s main one has collapsed.
Especially in the case of Alistair Overeem. Alistair has made it no secret that he would rather fight in Japan, maybe with one less option, we’ll see him in the States defending his Strikeforce belt more then every one to two years!
That’s just a thought.
by devious1 on Sep 27, 2010 9:14 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Except K-1 is still going to be around
and that’s who Overeem likes to fight for.
Mayhem said that you are his idol.
Sakuraba: If he means it, he should demonstrate his respect. If he means it, he shouldn't punch me...If he does that during the fight, I'm gonna say "Hey, what you are doing right now is not even close to respecting me!" Then I'lI probably throw him on the judge's table.
by lowellthehammer on Sep 27, 2010 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions
FEG’s money troubles are going to affect K-1 too.
by who me on Sep 27, 2010 9:49 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Eh
K-1 is still relatively popular though right? If FEG were to stop pouring money into DREAM and just handle kickboxing and the odd one-off MMA show I think their money troubles would be much less dire. I don’t have any stats to back me up though so I wouldn’t mind being shown otherwise.
Mayhem said that you are his idol.
Sakuraba: If he means it, he should demonstrate his respect. If he means it, he shouldn't punch me...If he does that during the fight, I'm gonna say "Hey, what you are doing right now is not even close to respecting me!" Then I'lI probably throw him on the judge's table.
by lowellthehammer on Sep 27, 2010 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Terrible matchmaking and very little star power are not a recipe for awesome.
How do you build hype for squash matches? Sure the crowd probably likes seeing there guy win, but there has to be some element of competition.
I think that some of those fighters I’ve mentioned can be very relevant if they fight in the States
Not necessarily world beaters, but some can be matched up for some great battles with any US fighters if given a bigger stage
by devious1 on Sep 27, 2010 9:35 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You've got to be kidding me...
Japanese mma is strong; dream has an abundant amount of stars that could preform @ the ufc and definitely dominate. Their promos and their event from top to bottom is more professional than that of its counter parts, especially strikeforce. The reason they don’t have the stiller viewership is b/c the average american fan isn’t open minded.
C’mon anyone that’s a fan of fighting knows dream is putting out a great product/ event every time its aired on tv.
by Untitled_Artistry on Sep 27, 2010 9:36 AM EDT reply actions
it's the average Japanese fan
who’s no longer tuning in for DREAM. The ratings we’re talking about our on Japanese TV.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
You aren’t getting it are you?
This has nothing to do with the silly “which org is better?” debate or America at all, it is about Dream not getting good enough ratings in Japan to survive off of and FEG having money trouble.
by who me on Sep 27, 2010 9:46 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Dream’s ratings problems are in their home market in Japan. US ratings are irrelevant to them for the most part because the US isn’t their main market, they aren’t even seriously attempting to draw viewers in the US. HDnet is a fringe network and Dream shows are either pre-recorded or shown live in the middle of the night in the US, it’s not an issue at all in this.
lol
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Sep 27, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
How succesful would the UFC be
If they held a show in Japan filled with mainly former PRIDE stars with Okami/Anderson as the headliner?
It's difficult for me to care that much about the fall of DREAM
considering how unprofessional they have acted recently. I know most people write off things like late fight announcements and not paying the fighters on time as part and parcel of Japanese MMA but it’s still worrisome behavior in a fight promoter.
I don’t wish for the Japanese MMA scene as a whole to die off, but if DREAM were to fall apart and be replaced by a promotion more willing/able to take the promotion of the sport seriously I fail to see that being a bad thing.
Mayhem said that you are his idol.
Sakuraba: If he means it, he should demonstrate his respect. If he means it, he shouldn't punch me...If he does that during the fight, I'm gonna say "Hey, what you are doing right now is not even close to respecting me!" Then I'lI probably throw him on the judge's table.
by lowellthehammer on Sep 27, 2010 9:44 AM EDT reply actions
Part of me hopes they do well, but another part of me sees all of the haphazard BS that Dream has been pulling lately and thinks, sink or swim. The fighters are good but the promotion is wack. There are other Japanese promotions that seem to be much better run and I wouldn’t mind seeing them come to the forefront.
Sengoku is essentially the only other promotion though.
Something tells me they don’t have the money to sign every refugee DREAM would produce were it to collapse.
Mayhem said that you are his idol.
Sakuraba: If he means it, he should demonstrate his respect. If he means it, he shouldn't punch me...If he does that during the fight, I'm gonna say "Hey, what you are doing right now is not even close to respecting me!" Then I'lI probably throw him on the judge's table.
by lowellthehammer on Sep 27, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Sengoku is essentially the only other promotion
Huh?
Japan is chock full of great MMA. Shooto, DEEP, Pancrase, ZST, GCM, etc. IMO, those shows are where the future of Japanese MMA lies.
They need to get away from the Pride pagentry and freakshow model and get back to nuts & bolts fight promotion. IMO, if Japanese MMA is ever going to pull itself out of this funk, it will be by embracing the ‘sports’ model and distancing themselves from that past, much as Zuffa had to distance themselves from the ‘blood & guts’ marketing of the early SEG years. They need to quit trying to create Pride 2.0 and go off in a new direction.
by Steve4192 on Sep 27, 2010 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Those promotions have more history but little visibility.
I was also under the impression Shooto and Pancrase were de facto feeder leagues for the “bigger” promotions ie DREAM and Sengoku. I don’t see them ever stepping up and filling that void.
Mayhem said that you are his idol.
Sakuraba: If he means it, he should demonstrate his respect. If he means it, he shouldn't punch me...If he does that during the fight, I'm gonna say "Hey, what you are doing right now is not even close to respecting me!" Then I'lI probably throw him on the judge's table.
by lowellthehammer on Sep 27, 2010 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions
They do change, but do you really see Pancrase or Shooto stepping up and becoming major visible forces in Japanese MMA? I highly doubt it. Shooto definitely never will, they’ve been doing what they do (very well, I might add) for 25+ years. DEEP, ZST, etc aren’t going to get TV major TV contracts either. Strikeforce can’t really be compared to the Japanese scene. It’s much easier to get TV in North America than it is in Japan.
SRC is the only “high profile” one of the bunch that’s left, and they do pretty much exactly what you talked about – nuts and bolts fight promotion. I want to see them be successful, but things aren’t looking too rosy.
http://www.instrength.com
Yes.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Sep 27, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
those of us with memories remember that Japanese fans kept the sport alive and growing ten years ago when American authorities and cable companies nearly succeeded in driving the sport into the ground.
… and now it is our turn.
Japanese MMA is going through their ‘dark period’ the same way North American MMA did in the late 1990s. Now is the time for North America to carry the sport while the Japanese promoters sort out their problems.
Hopefully, the Japanese follow the lead of their North American counterparts and clean up their side of the sport, find a new way to capture the imagination of the public, and emerge stronger for it.
Are the Japanese fans just not into MMA like they used to be?
Hard core MMA fan since UFC 99
by ChiCubs23 on Sep 27, 2010 9:58 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
K-1 and pro wrestling ratings in Japan have also tanked pretty hard, the entire fight industry there is in a slump. PPV isn’t that big of a thing in Japan, these organizations depend on live gates and network tv deals to survive, they still have viewers but it’s just not enough for them to stay afloat in that system.
The Sumo gambling scandals have also had a major impact on the kakutougi scene in Japan. This is particularly true in MMA, which had already been tainted by Yakuza scandals long before the Sumo gambling mess hit the fan.
This is not just an MMA issue. The entire Japanese combat sports industry is in dire need of cleaning up, and until that happens, it will continue to flounder. The public has lost faith in the product.
This sucks really. Whatever you think about the way jMMA is run, it’s undeniably a great place for the smaller fighters to make a decent living.
by Superstitiousmma on Sep 27, 2010 10:01 AM EDT reply actions
This is definitely a huge fall, but to say they were runned sloppy with their promotions/ paying their fighters c’mon. Their no different than the ufc, with dana white twitting fighters getting robbed are you kidding me.
by Untitled_Artistry on Sep 27, 2010 10:06 AM EDT reply actions
i love their rule set.
I hope america adopts it.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Sep 27, 2010 10:24 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
dream has a bad product
they never found the right mix between relevant fights and pointless freakshows, continually sacrificed fighter safety with their matchmaking, and couldn’t figure out how to build stars that would make japanese consumers tune in.
they deserve to fail.
i do want the japanese MMA market to remain (or once again become) strong and relevant. here’s to hoping that another promotion besides dream is able to figure out a workable, sustainable formula.
www.tapology.com | twitter @tapology
Good Point, Kid Nate
You are very correct. The health of Japanese MMA, as well as MMA in all regions of the globe, do have an indirect consequential effect upon the health of North American MMA if one wants to have an international quality to the sport. In addition, while the UFC may be the big dog in the house for years to come, it too does suffer without the presence of quality competition. All of this, plus the issues surrounding the development of world-class fighters means that the erosion of Japanese MMA is not a good thing.
That said, the history of combative arts and competition in Japan, like that of Holland and Brazil for instance, is such that a new model of fight promotion may emerge that is more akin to stability and the building of stars in competitive fights.
Good post, Kid Nate.
Luckily for DREAM
Even with their focus on freakshows and pointless fights, after they fold people will look back on them like they were great.
Just like people ignore all the crap PRIDE put on.
by Lunatic-Fridge on Sep 27, 2010 12:33 PM EDT reply actions
I don’t think DREAM has established the kind of legacy where they will be remembered at all. They’ll be lumped in with Hero’s, Inoki Bom Ba Ye, WFA, TKO, Cage Rage and every other defunct organization that put on some good fights but failed to survive the test of time.
Pride will be remembered.
DREAM will not.
12% is not that bad
And if DREAM dies, another organisation will be created. I don’t believe in Dream collapsing, not at all. Not for now.
Well you fought on their last card
So that makes sense
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Sep 27, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Japanese MMA
I’m not one who thinks MMA in Japan is dead. I for one hope this is nothing but a lull – that said it is obvious that less and less top 10 fighters are coming from Japan, and even those in the top 10 can’t seem to compete when they cross over to fight in the US. Some exceptions of course but by-and-large Japan is getting left behind. The thing is, I don’t think it’s dead because I find myself continually entertained by the cards DREAM and SRC put on, and there’s not a whole lot else that can get me to stay up that late/early. I for one hope that this new investment deal doesn’t overlook the potential that DREAM still has.
True, as someone said, a lot of these fighters will be “OK” because they have Strikeforce, still, but I really think it is important for Japan to keep a major outlet in country for their fighters to exhibit their skills on a big stage/network.
DREAM folding for me, as an mma fan, would be a huge loss. I love the shows they put on.
Some talking points.
This was the third highest rating DREAM has pulled in its history. While it has declined since their last few primetime specials, it is still stronger than their first few shows which had trouble cracking 10%. Hell, the overall for Dynamite!! last year was still 10%, with most of the DREAM vs. SRC stuff being the lowlight.
DREAM had a one and a half hour timeslot and was shown on heavy tape delay with tons of editing. HDnet aired the full event live, and I’m pretty sure SKY in Japan showed it on PPV either live or on a slight delay. The hardcores in Japan are like the hardcores in the US; they know where to find what they need and are impatient.
Ishii vs. Minowa was the star of the show, with Sakuraba and Aoki’s fights getting airtime as well, to the best of my knowledge.
DREAM’s biggest rating had a Kameda lead-in as well as Bob Sapp.
The Kameda lead-in for this fight was the middle brother, Daiki, the one who got suspended for a year for a cheapshot after the bell. Out of the three, he is the least-liked.
Head Kick Legend
Twitter @HeadKickLegend
by Dave Walsh on Sep 27, 2010 3:55 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
OH, and..
The Kameda fight had low ratings of a 14 or so spread. These guys get upwards of double that usually.
Head Kick Legend
Twitter @HeadKickLegend
Nate you should know this about FEG now ? The ratings are somewhat a BIG deal but the bottom line when it comes to Dream going under or not is when Kazuyoshi Ishii wants to cut his losses and end it . To this point Kazuyoshi Ishii really does not seem to care about the the loss in revenue or bar ratings ? TBS on the other hand that a different story but Dream will always be able to find a home on TV maybe just not a station as big as TBS.
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