The Myth of the Big Money UFC Sponsor Check
Note: For a detailed look at how much money fighters make from sponsors, see our series on the economics of MMA.
Compared to traditional mainstream athletes, UFC stars are woefully underpaid. The percentage of the income Zuffa shares with its fighters is microscopic. The organization collects millions while many fighters make less than $10,000. Supporters of this system often defend the world's largest mixed martial arts promotion by claiming that fighters make up for that lost income with giant sponsor checks.
My research has indicated that just isn't true. While most managers, agents, and fighters won't talk on the record about their sponsorship income, an informal polling of fighters up and down the card indicated that sponsor pay is significantly lower than many imagine. Last night, Matt Mitrione gave fans a glimpse of just what kind of money awaits a fighter that will be featured prominently on national television. After the fight Mitrione fired his agent Malki Kawa on national television and drove the point home in a postfight interview with Ariel Helwani:
He did the worst job ever with sponsorships. For a televised fight he got me $5000. Five thousand for a televised fight. That is highly unacceptable.
That number is undeniably low. But for a fighter on a UFC undercard it isn't outlandishly so. That's the pay scale we are dealing with.That's the kind of money Mitrione is getting to put himself at further risk after already admitting a history of traumatic brain injury to Yahoo's Maggie Hendricks:
"I guarantee you I have brain damage. I don't think as clearly as I used to, and I'm not as quick-witted as I used to be. Sometimes, my words run together," he said. "My short-term memory isn't great. I don't get headaches, but I know that the damage from football is done."
The fighters in the UFC, like Mitrione, take significant physical risks to entertain us. I'd like to see them be better compensated for that risk. It's clear that a brief moment on television won't allow an upstart clothing company to make up the difference between living check to check and making a real living. The promotion has to do that. I think it's time.
UPDATE [from Luke Thomas]: Headline edited.
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Yes but while PPV (alone) revenue has increased dramatically
salary has not.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions
That number is extremely low though.
I know for a fact 3 fighters who DIDN’T fight on the main card that got around that or more.
That’s why he fired the guy.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 6:42 PM EDT reply actions
I don’t mean to be disrespectful – but which of us do you think talks to more fighters and managers?
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 26, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRNNNNNN
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
What a non-sequitur. So you're saying that 5000 is the right number for an aired prelim on Spike?
You don’t have to “talk to more fighters” to know that. That’s common sense if you’ve talked to a couple fighters. Especially considering he fired his agent afterwards for his piss poor performance. I’d be willing to bet big cash he got more money in his last fight than this one.
Just to be clear, you’re telling me that 5K dollars is the average amount that fighters get for being on an aired fight?
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions
But for a fighter on a UFC undercard it isn’t outlandishly so.
That’s what I was focused on. C’mon now. So define “not outlandishly”. To me, getting more than, say 50% less than what you should’ve gotten IS outlandish. (And that was a conservative guestimate) IMO, Mitrione should’ve been an easy 5 figures for his fight which makes it a gain of at least 200%. I think that is outlandish.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions 9 recs
I think he was just pointing out that he’s more of an insider than you are.
http://www.instrength.com
That's great but it doesn't address what I said.
If you said that Crocop looked like he hadn’t trained and I told you that I train more than you, what type of answer is that?
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Then why respond.
I’m not one of those “Snowden trolls” guys, but if you’re responding and doing nothing in the way that he is and not “discussing”, then there’s a name for that.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions
But you are one of the "Bloody Elbow trolls"
so that has to count for something
You big dummy
Troll was being used as a verb not a noun, therefore your quip (which will more than likely be greened) is incorrect
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 27, 2010 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s not what he meant. He meant that you only have those three fighters – a small sample if you will. He himself on the other hand has spoken to a vastly greater number of fighters, thereby making his assessment the more valid and accurate one in representing the big picture in the issue at hand.
He’s also implies he has way more contacts and more inside-knowledge than you and would like to kindly ask you to stfu and gtfo with your limited three-fighter-knowledge. ;)
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
by KGNLuc on Sep 26, 2010 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
OK, but guess what? He provides fuck-all evidence of his 'myth exposure"
And I asked him a point-blank question which hasn’t been answered.
His assessment isn’t more “valid” or “accurate” until he can come with some numbers.
Snowden, what would the average fighter get in Mitrione’s position with the number isn’t “outlandishly low”.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I said the same thing...
Take a look at my post directed at Snowden below: “This would be a great post if you could come up with real numbers. You can’t just back a statement we all heard on national television and bolster it up with "I heard that it’s not unusual" or something like that. Present proof, have guys go on record who used to fight for the UFC etc. If you can’t get or publish that kind of info, your article is just as good as if I heard Mitirione say that on tv and published an "educated guess"-article out of it (you being of course a bit more trustworthy as a source, but you get the idea ;)).”
This is a very interesting topic but his article has the same substance as something conjured up by a fan in a forum, except for Snowden’s name value.
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
Sorry. I’m not ready to reveal anything that is better suited for something substantive in the comments of a post.
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 26, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
So you won't answer my question is what you're saying?
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions
He's holding out for more sponsorship money
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
by duck on Sep 26, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions 10 recs
It should have been in your article to begin with. That we are clamouring for it in the posts should make you realize that you need to hold your work to higher standards in the future and not ask us to simply believe you because of your assumed inside knowledge. If you could reveal that in the comments I guess it’d be fine. =)
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
by KGNLuc on Sep 26, 2010 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions 11 recs
You wanna pay me?
I’ll tell you some real numbers. Hell, I even tell you the REAL reason Todd got released from the UFC…the story you guy’s haven’t heard. Not just Dana’s comment
www.kickboxingandbjj.com
I can't pay you
but if you posted them on a popular MMA messageboard you could get a lot of people talking….
Ha...
How many locker rooms has he been in? Pretty sure even if Texas doesn’t allow anyone besides corners back there…a reporter ain’t gonna find his way in there, much less be privy to as much as he thinks he is. Perfect example of a guy that interviews fighters and managers thinking he has the whole inside scoop. Ha…You’re told what they wanna tell you
www.kickboxingandbjj.com
Still, you gotta admit: the fact that Mitrione fired the guy publicly must mean he screwed up real bad. That in turn must mean that Mitrione was expecting much, much more and he had to have a reason for that. Still, he’s a TUF-guy and was guaranteed airtime for his prelim on Spike. That means much more sponsor-money than for the average prelim fighter of course.
This would be a great post if you could come up with real numbers. You can’t just back a statement we all heard on national television and bolster it up with “I heard that it’s not unusual” or something like that. Present proof, have guys go on record who used to fight for the UFC etc. If you can’t get or publish that kind of info, your article is just as good as if I heard Mitirione say that on tv and published an “educated guess”-article out of it (you being of course a bit more trustworthy as a source, but you get the idea ;)).
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
by KGNLuc on Sep 26, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Of course you would
My point is, he’s not puttin up any numbers.
And he’s saying it’s not “outlandishly low” is dubious.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I agree SC.....?....
I hate to admit it but I’m with SC on this one. I honestly thought there was evidence to be provided “after the jump”.
Instead we are left with a quote from a fighter who publicy FIRED his manager because how shitty a job he did getting him only 5k in sponsorship money, and we are supposed to take that horrible shitty number, that got someone fired, and use it as some kind of average total for all fighters? But Snowden did research which we can’t handle, just like that other guy on here ( I want to say pdl but I’m not sure) that knows all this cool stuff that he can’t tell us because…… Im still not sure why.
by RoB_ex on Sep 27, 2010 2:45 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Why do people always say that?
“I hate to agree”.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 27, 2010 8:03 AM EDT up reply actions
With all due respect, you seem to like to throw around your hypothetical info without revealing much of it. Belittling commenters who point out inconsistencies is pretty lame. Just my 2 cents.
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by Kneeeeee on Sep 26, 2010 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
yes the holier than thou approach is the best one
by PBreezeToTheDome on Sep 27, 2010 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I really don’t think main stream fighters are hurting for cash.
Rich Franklyn said he makes more in 2 years with the UFC than he would in 20 years as a teacher.
Mir said he doesn’t need the money because his real estate and cars are all paid off.
Even Stephan Bonnar said that generally your sponsorship money is about equal to your show money.
Plus signing bonus, etc.
Dana likes keep the numbers as far from the public eye as possible because his goal is to take money out of the talk in promotion.
Yeah I was going to point that out too
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes
But pointing that out disturbs the “Zuffa is letting these guys kill themselves in front of us for pennies” narrative.
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by Derek Suboticki on Sep 26, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
but I know that the damage from football is done
I’m gonna assume you all didn’t read that line.
Mattrione saying that outright…. I don’t think he should fight anymore TBH. I wouldn’t clear him to fight if I was on an AC and it was in my power.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
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by The Lethal Haze on Sep 26, 2010 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Jeez, if I were on an AC, I’d leave that kind of thing up to THE DOCTORS.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Sep 26, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, guy says he’s living with the aftereffects of brain damage from a career in contact sports. The doctors cleared him to fight though, so fuck it
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Sep 26, 2010 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I bow to your expertise, Dr Haze
Especially given your history with the patient you’ve never met.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Sep 26, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Doctors in the past have regularly sent NFL players who’ve had concussions back into games. But you know, if the doctor says its cool, then its cool.
Fuck it, you win the argument. I apologize. People with brain damage should definitely be allowed to fight in MMA.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
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by The Lethal Haze on Sep 26, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, I mean, Mitrione said something in an interview
That means it must be true.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Sep 26, 2010 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Mattrione, that fuckin liar.
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-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Sep 26, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions
If I recall correctly
Mitrione also pretended to have a head injury on TUF as part of a weird fake out thing… that was him right? I’ll feel silly if I’m wrong.
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by pdl on Sep 26, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
ding ding ding
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by Derek Suboticki on Sep 26, 2010 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Your argument is based on the assumption that what Mitrione says has actual medical merrit. Now, if you’ve seen his TUF season…the guys said a lot of weird stuff. He may not be right in the head. But I’m not sure it’s from football ;)
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
by KGNLuc on Sep 26, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
How is that relevant?
funny you ask that, you are the one who inserted a totally irrelevant quote, so maybe you should tell us what the relevance of this below quote was?
“I guarantee you I have brain damage. I don’t think as clearly as I used to, and I’m not as quick-witted as I used to be. Sometimes, my words run together,” he said. “My short-term memory isn’t great. I don’t get headaches, but I know that the damage from football is done.”
Is it to emphasise your point that…
The fighters in the UFC, like Mitrione, take significant physical risks to entertain us. I’d like to see them be better compensated for that risk. It’s clear that a brief moment on television won’t allow an upstart clothing company to make up the difference between living check to check and making a real living. The promotion has to do that. I think it’s time.
by higgledy-piggledy on Sep 26, 2010 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Typical hatchet job "journalism"
“I guarantee you I have brain damage. I don’t think as clearly as I used to, and I’m not as quick-witted as I used to be. Sometimes, my words run together,” he said. “My short-term memory isn’t great. I don’t get headaches, but I know that the damage from football is done.”
I read the article [ article link] this quote came from, and I have to say inserting this quote into this post in this way is inappropriate. You know very well he was talking about damage related to his football career, nothing to do with his MMA career.
You’ve done this in some of your previous posts, it lazy reporting. If you don’t have a quote to support your post, don’t remove quotes out of context.
by higgledy-piggledy on Sep 26, 2010 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
correction, 'blogism'
lets not get ahead of ourselves LOL
by PBreezeToTheDome on Sep 27, 2010 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions
…reason I put quotation marks around the word “journalism”. The is a tabloid style piece at its finest.
by higgledy-piggledy on Sep 27, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
One fighter making $5,000 in endorsements and then immediately firing his manager, on TV, for garnering such a paltry amount, now means that nobody makes money off of endorsements.
If agents want us to feel sorry for their athletes, then publish numbers and stand by them. Otherwise, it sounds like the kind of whining that agents make a living doing.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Sep 26, 2010 6:43 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
You’ve been hinting at a post about this for a while. Now that it’s here, I’m shocked it’s so weak. Is this a teaser for something more in-depth?
Hear, hear
I am desperate for some actual sponsorship numbers.
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by Derek Suboticki on Sep 26, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
You won't get them
No one will talk on record because it will either piss off the promotion or the sponsor.
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by Matthew Roth on Sep 26, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Apparently someone will. Meathead. Which is not smart on his part. Must be the “brain damage” he got from football.
http://www.instrength.com
Nah, I think in the manner he did
Burns a bridge in the sponsor but will leave him in the good graces of the promotion. He actually seems to have given them a shout out due to his emphasis it’s an important fight.
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by Matthew Roth on Sep 26, 2010 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I disagree. All he’s doing is emphasizing that he’s not making a ton from fighting and needs that sponsorship money. I can’t see the promotion liking that at all.
http://www.instrength.com
That would be your interpretation. All I got from it was that he is used to getting much more from sponsorships. That’s why he considers 5k$ a monumental screwup that deserves public shame in addition to firing his agent.
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
Nothing money-wise in any area of business deserves “public shame”. Fire your agent in private. You think Luke’s going to post a video on the internet when he fires Snowden? It’s just not very bright.
Just kidding about the firing part, BTW.
http://www.instrength.com
private/public
who cares, bottom line is that his manager screwed the pooch and Mittrione has to feel the repurcussions. People get fired every day, in and outside of the limelight. nature of the beast
Who cares?
A) Any potential future agent for Meathead that doesn’t like their laundry aired in public.
B) Dana White, his boss, who’s on record saying he doesn’t like any financials in any area of the sport dragged into the public eye.
C) This agent, who’s reputation is now ruined by an irresponsible dude who wasn’t happy about something and doesn’t have the ability to get an interview with Ariel Helwani to respond.
D) Everyone else.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Sep 26, 2010 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
A) Do a better job as an agent and you won’t have this problem
B) Dana has no say over what “sponsors” pay to get their name out there
C) Don’t fuck up, and you won’t have to be put in this situation.
D) Not me
Actually Dana does. He limits the sponsors you can use
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
If you have sponsors but can't use them due to them not being on the approved list
don’t you lose money?
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions
potentially
i guess, but that doesn’t limit the amount that you can get from an “approved” sponsor. poor negotiating
So my point was correct
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions
open for debate. if you have a good agent, one who can negotiate, it shouldn’t matter how many sponsors are out there to negotiate with, do your job and get the best deal for you and your client, and all is well.
If I tell you to get the best computer
And then limit the computers you can choose from, then aren’t you limited in actually finding the best if one of the higher-performing computers isn’t on my list?
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions
we're not talking about the "best"
we’re talking about an “adequate/fair” compensation from a sponsor.
hypothetically, if Dana limits the # of sponsors from 32 to 16, that doesn’t mean that Meathead can’t get the best, or one of the best, contracts w/one of those 16. it just limits the number of sponsors he can sell his pitch to. and even if the # of sponsors were unlimited, that doesn’t necessarily equate to a better deal. it’s all about negotiating. c’mon now
Also, don’t the sponsors have to pay an initial fee to the UFC in order for them to be approved?
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
This statement is wrong in multiple ways.
Now I’ll read my sig again and be on my merry way.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
BUT I THOUGHT THAT SPONSORS HAD TO PAY 500K A FIGHT TO THE UFC TO SPONSOR A FIGHTER!!!
THAT’S WHAT THE INTERNET SAID!!!
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by Matthew Roth on Sep 26, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Sponsors DO have to pay a fee
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions
It's a 100k commitment if I remember correctly
One of the great “what is Fagan talking about” moments of all time was when he claimed that would lead to empty spaces on fighter’s shorts.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Sep 26, 2010 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Most of them revolve around PED’s and the Chicago White Sox.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Sep 26, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
A) Confidentiality is a big thing in business. Sometimes you have clients that you can’t do enough for, no matter what. Agents will think twice about taking on a guy that’s a known blabbermouth.
B) The UFC has banned many sponsors. They also charge sponsors to sponsor.
C) “Don’t fuck up” is based on an opinion. In this case, Matt Mitrione’s. That’s not something you can avoid all the time. Doesn’t mean taking it public is a smart thing to do.
http://www.instrength.com
i’m not disagreeing w/you. i’m also not condoning Mitrione’s way of handling the situation, but the bottom line is that this is business and you HAVE to be held accountable for your actions. that’s how it is, in all aspects of the business world (entertainment, blue/whit collar, etc). Dude fucked up, according to HIS client, so he gets the ax. why is this such a big deal
It wouldn’t be if Meathead didn’t announce it to the masses in an Ariel Helwani interview.
http://www.instrength.com
i am under the impression
that agents don’t really pick and choose clients, apart from an elite few (i.e. sheri spencer)
I'll love Luke forever if he does it
He can ban me in the same breath for all I care
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Sep 26, 2010 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree. I just said that the fact Mitrione felt the need to do that points to more than just a “man, I used to get 5500$!”-scenario.
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
Or because many contracts are confidential.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
OH God, no. This is just a Mitrione post. When I do a business post, you’ll know. It looks like it may end up being a book though..
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 26, 2010 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
That number is undeniably low. But for a fighter on a UFC undercard it isn’t outlandishly so.
See, that reads to me like “the average amount of sponsorship dollars for a fighter on the untelevised prelims of a free for TV UFC card is greater than $5,000”. Care to refute?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Sep 26, 2010 6:51 PM EDT reply actions
You should be happy about this post because it knocks “(Explative) Strikeforce” out of the #1 spot for post with an epic title that completely failed to deliver.
by Jahbulon on Sep 26, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I know Luke and Nate disagree with this and think that fighters aren’t really that bright and need to be coddled a bit, but…these guys CHOOSE to fight and “entertain us”. I have no sympathy for someone who’s underpaid in their line of work. None.
If Mitrione felt he could have earned more in sponsorship money, good on him for firing the dude. Taking it public is pretty stupid though.
http://www.instrength.com
I disagree, because the money is clearly there. Zuffa just isnt giving any of it to the fighters, apparently. For the record, I think what the top tier (say, top 30%) is totally fair, and turning these guys into mini-corporations like boxing has done is a huge mistake. However, the earnings of the bottom 30% is a total disgrace, IMHO. 5k a fight with some 8k sponsors check thrown in is outrageously low and always has been.
It’s not unique to MMA. Do your job exceptionally, make the big cash. I don’t know the payscale for average sponsorship, but I believe Mitrione if he says he didn’t make much. Either way though…it doesn’t matter if the money’s there. The money’s there in lots of lines of work, you have to earn it. If you don’t like the pay, do something else. That’s my point.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Sep 26, 2010 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
So, if say, Jonny Hendricks or Gerald Harris or John Hathaway, or any one of the up and coming prospects, announces “I’d love to keep fighting, guys, but I have a family to support, and the money simply isnt here at the moment, I’m forced to retire”, the proper response is “HAHAAAA! SUCKA!! Have fun at McDonalds, BITCH!!!” I mean, arent we kind of the ones that lose in that scenario? Why exactly would we want to celebrate that scenario, or continue to support a system that creates it? Keeping in mind the money is absolutely there to pay those guys, say, 17.5 K as opposed to 5k? Do you think 17.5 is unreasonable, or would cause the UFC undue hardship? If the answer tho either of those questions is no, then whats the problem?
Who’s celebrating it? I’m stating that it’s LIFE. The problem is the perception that these guys are doing this for our entertainment, so they should be entitled to more cash or whatever. What about the people that provide actual services for you? There are plenty of people that it could be argued are MORE entitled to a healthy income.
I am celebrating nothing. I just said I have no sympathy for Matt Mitrione or any MMA fighter bitching about their pay. Welcome to life, buddy. He made a choice to pursue MMA as a career, knowing the hardships beforehand.
http://www.instrength.com
Life where? In what other sport, or for that matter entertainment venue, has this situation arisen? Are you arguing that because Joe the trash guy should get more pay, that Mitrione shouldnt complain? Do you really not know the difference, or are you being purposely obtuse? 20k people dont buy tickets to watch Joe throw trash in a truck, so sorry Joe, you are SOL. THAT, for better or worse, is ACTUALLY life.
The most analogous business, like it or not, is pro wrestling
As long as WWE treats its pro wrestlers like independent contractors, with little pay and dangerous working conditions, pro wrestlers will abuse painkillers and perform when they shouldn’t. The MMA versions of Hulk Hogan (ironically enough, Brock Lesnar leads this list) will be paid well, but most of the roster won’t make it financially on what the promoters offer.
MMA in the US isn’t that far away from WWE.
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
I never said he shouldn’t complain. I said I have no sympathy for him, that’s all. Because there are a lot of people in his position that chose to be there.
In what other sport has this arisen? Look at boxing. 99.97% of boxers make sweet fuck all. You get the big cheese by being the best at what you do. If Matt wants more money, win more fights.
http://www.instrength.com
Or get a better agent (which he’s doing now) – Mitrione isn’t begging for our sympathy here, he’s shitting on his manager
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Sep 26, 2010 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Making money issues public = begging for sympathy, dude. Why else would you make such a monumentally stupid decision?
http://www.instrength.com
Because you're dumb?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Sep 26, 2010 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions
True, he is dumb. But it still rings true…you get a mic stuck in front of you and start complaining…you want attention.
http://www.instrength.com
I think he’s dumb enough that someone could have dared him to do it backstage.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Sep 26, 2010 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Nope.l Sometimes, it's just a way to get more money
Scott Boras does it all the time for his clients. Brett Favre has done it rather successfully. But it’s bad when fighters do it?
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
When hasn't he?
He’s retired four times. Name one when he didn’t come back with a new contract extension at higher pay than his old contract called for. You can’t.
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
I have no idea. I know there were rumors of a raise for this season, but I hadn’t seen any proof. Him coming back with the Jets, then the Vikes…I didn’t realize that involved a raise. He’s never actually TALKED about being undercompensated, has he?
http://www.instrength.com
Talked? No.
But he sure as hell got his raise each time.
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
Back up then. The entire point was that I believed Mitrione took his money issues public was to garner some sympathy (and because he’s dumb). If Favre never talked money, your point makes no sense.
http://www.instrength.com
You know, I think you're right on this one
Point withdrawn.
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
by duck on Sep 26, 2010 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Thank you
for being willing to change your mind. I wish there more responses like yours on this site.
Rec’d.
www.instrength.com
by PlantingaFan on Sep 27, 2010 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Because he wanted to publicly shame his agent. Why else would you fire someone live on tv? After that he had to give his reasons for it in order to not look like a total dork. But the initial motivation wasn’t to drop his sponsorship income, IMO.
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
Your lack of knowledge about boxing is glaring. You get the big cheese by being affiliated with a few select promoters (primarily Al Haymon). Skill has little to do with it. Boxing is its own clusterfuck that bares little resemblence to any other business model on the planet, and we are all better off for it.
Entitlement
My problem with the UFC business model is, very little of the profits are being shared with the vast majority of the employees/contractors who make the business viable, and instead, most of it is going to finance the debt two of the principal owners have created in an unrelated business. There’s no traditional infrastructure in which to invest – no factories, no software, no machines that UFC needs to replace/buy. That is money that could be used to pay its contractors (who are, in reality, employees) a living wage at little impact to the company’s bottom line.
If the UFC doubled the pay per fight for each fighter who earns under $25,000 a fight, they’d have better fighters, because they could then invest in better and more consistent training rather than treat the UFC as a glorified second job.
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
More like “Earn it!!” We all have to. Lots of us work for corporations with a disproportionate payscale. We have 3 choices – Find a new career, work super hard and get promoted to make more money, or…stagnate and deal with it. All I’m saying is that Matt Mitrione is no different than you or I. I’m not going to hold him to a higher standard because he entertains me or his boss makes a lot of cash.
http://www.instrength.com
So basically, you personally are bitter because you yourself work for such a disproportionate company and feel if you are getting screwed, everyone should, and have a little extra bitter-sauce thrown in because 20k people dont pay to watch you slave in your cubicle…..OR you are the owner of such a company and are the one doing the screwing…..or your Karl Rove. One of the three.
LOL again. I’m very happy with my place in the food chain. I worked fucking hard to get a cushy, high-paid job that I’m very happy with. I just hate people that bitch about anything instead of just fucking earning it. I know life’s unfair, and the only way to negate the disadvantage is to do more than 99.9% of everyone else. I don’t think anyone owes anyone anything. Certainly not anyone that does something of their own free will.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Sep 26, 2010 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
But you've fooled yourself into thing the rest of the world works that way.
The rest of corporate America DOESN’T work that way. People get promoted not just due to hard work, but because of who they’re friends with, who’ve they slept with and who they’re related to. If your experience was the norm, I’d have more faith in this economic system. But I don’t.
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
Which is why I said life is unfair. I do get it, many things go into promotions/raises/etc. Politics suck. But you can rise above all of it. Anyone can. That’s very Tony Robbins of me, but it’s true. If you can’t do it at one job, you get a new one.
http://www.instrength.com
Tony Robbins' theories work well in a fair world
When the playing field is tilted to an impossible degree before you even start, saying “Yes!” to yourself isn’t going to make a damn bit of difference when the boss hires the son of his cousin who doesn’t know fuck-all about the job you trained for for years.
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
Well...
To some extent, if most businesses simply ignored the people who did the most to improve their product and give them income, then they would get destroyed by a business that didn’t run on pure nepotism and incompetence. So, I don’t think most businesses ignore useful contributions most of the time, though they do overlook useful contributions a lot.
www.instrength.com
by PlantingaFan on Sep 27, 2010 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Like that isn’t work.
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Richard is a jewel." - Kid Nate
by Richard Wade on Sep 26, 2010 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Totally O/T but
I can’t believe San Diego didn’t tie that game. We did everything in our power to blow it.
Bandwagon leader for Michael Robinson as Seattle Seahawks starting QB.
by SSreporters on Sep 26, 2010 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions
yes but
things happen. allow me to allude to forrest gump. box of chocolates and so on. plenty of people haved sucked dick and gotten to the top, but i guarantee donald trump kept it hetero his whole life. its about the opportunities that present themselves. mitrione had an opportunity and succeeded, therefore he will get another more lucrative opportunity. THATS how business works.
but yea, lets all complain about a guy who has been in not only the premier football league, but the premier fight league in this country. poor guy only makes SEVERAL THOUSAND DOLLARS to fight a guy for one quarter of football. Im pretty sure those clowns i saw scrappin at the club last night weren’t getting paid. they were passionate, they gave it their all. whats the difference? hitting foam pads and rolling with a world class instructor, wow what a grind. he should be so lucky. tell that to the steel workers that get up at six every day and sit in front of a 500 degree oven for 10 hours. would matt switch jobs? i dont think so
by PBreezeToTheDome on Sep 27, 2010 1:27 AM EDT up reply actions
and its also discouraging to hear people like forrest say, ‘oh well i haven’t been training mma lately.’ im paraphrasing (of course) but you get it. must be nice to be going on a book tour.
by PBreezeToTheDome on Sep 27, 2010 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions
and I would retort that Jonny Hendricks works harder then 99% of America, and is not being compensated on a level to which his work thusly deserves. Your theory is perfectly fine, as long as effort=compensatory results. When maximum effort=random chance and if Dana is in a good mood that day, you MIGHT get paid, theres a problem. Your theory seems to be, work hard and maybe, if Dana feels like it, you will get paid. If he doesnt, you can go suck a dick while Dana and I laugh like Dr. Evil. And if I have a problem with then randomness of effort vs. pay in MMA, IM the cray one?? interesting.
No, he's different than me
I have a professional association (NOT a union in Maryland) that bargains for my best interest as a teacher as part of a larger workforce. If it wasn’t for them, I’d be working for peanuts and at the whim of arbitrary bureaucrats who haven’t stepped in a classroom in 20 years.
I’ve done the corporate scene – worked at a newspaper, got paid $16K my first year out of college. If you even BREATHED the word “union” you were packing your desk by the end of the day. Saw it happen.
And if I had a ounce of faith that the most talented people actually rise in corporate America due to work and talent, maybe I’d be on board with your plan. But who’s made money in UFC? Some of them have been great fighters and earned every dime. Some have been Dana’s drinking buddies and yes men who hang on after loss after loss long after others are canned after one bad fight.
Then again, I bet you think Henry Ford’s use of the $5 day as a recruiting tool when his competitors paid half of that was coddling workers.
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
I’m not arguing that politics doesn’t dictate daily life. But in fighting, if you win, you get paid. That’s the bottom line.
http://www.instrength.com
And I'd argue they paid far less than their value to the company
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
I’m not disputing that at all. I absolutely agree that they’re not compensated well enough in relation to what they’re bringing in. This is not the basis of my argument though. It’s that if they don’t like it, they can do something else, like anyone can.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Sep 26, 2010 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It’s that if they don’t like it, they can do something else, like anyone can.
I don’t think life is as easy as that.
I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
But I won’t pick against Jon Jones again until I see him lose. - Kwisatz Haderach
I am simplifying things, this is true. It’s not that easy. But more often than not, people fail because they lack drive and ingenuity, not opportunity.
http://www.instrength.com
people fail because they lack drive and ingenuity, not opportunity.
I’d love to live in that world.
The one I live in, people scrimp and save and work hard at two jobs, then get wiped out by a medical bill or a car dying at in inopportune time or hours getting cut back. I’d love to see a world where people who worked hard actually got rewarded.
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
Lots of people do. I guess I’m a glass-full kinda guy, I dunno. This is a much bigger discussion point than what can be covered here, I guess.
http://www.instrength.com
I think we're doing a fairly good job
Bottom line, I’d like fighters to have a mechanism to be able to bargain collectively for a greater share of revenue.
And I seriously doubt UFC will ever let that happen, much as Vince McMahon did the same with UFC. The business models of those two companies are much closer than the average MMA fan would care to admit.
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
Absolutely
It will always be easy for the UFC to take the air out of any union thoughts. With such a disproportionate payscale, you just have to reward the top guys and point out how much they’ll lose if they unionize. People are inherently selfish. It will never happen.
http://www.instrength.com
Which is EXACTLY what Vince did with Hulk Hogan
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
Yep. Jesse Ventura talks about how he had the wrestlers talking union
and McMahon came in there and gave Hogan a bunch of money to shut him up and the wrestlers weren’t going anywhere without Hogan.
/sarcasm
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Wesley Types aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions
What is your argument for this? Last time I checked, we have a very good metric for value creation, it’s called money. If these guys were worth more to the company, they would be payed more. The UFC knows which fighters bring in PPV buys and puts butts in seats. That is why Lesnar, Couture, etc. are well taken care of.
The MMA scene is littered with the corpses of promotions that operated under a similar assumption.
This is just Pareto’s Principle at work. It pops up in every human endeavor. For every 8 guys on the prelims making nothing, there are 2 guys on the main card making bank. That is why those 8 guys choose to fight, they want to become one of those 2 at the top.
This is the reality of playing in an exponential world. It may not seem fair to you, but it is what drives the sport. Everyone is chasing the dream. Try to level the playing field, and you take away that dream.
No offense...
but do you have any evidence for some of those claims? Especially the one about the Fertattis (SP) using the UFC to fund their debts with Station Casinos…because that sounds like, and I’m no lawyer, but something that could be illegal…sort of embezzling from yourself in a way.
Frankly, the UFC business model is very shielded from us, and their competitors so its hard for us to know their expenses as well as outlays. I would be hard pressed to call their current system unfair, or fair for that matter simply because of its obscurity.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
You mean using personal profits to fund whatever else you want? Profits can be divided to the investors and they can spend that money as they see fit. No one is saying they are taking operating budgets from one company to funnel into another.
by Steven Abbott on Sep 27, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I do agree with this. I’m not crying for the fighters, but they do reinvest much of what they earn into their skills and training. I’m not going to pick a random number, but this is supposed to be the big show, the #1 promotion. At some point, everyone in it should be making 100K after paying for their training, management, medical, etc…
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Sep 27, 2010 3:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I work on a golf course
After having been laid off from a civil engineering company when the economy tanked and land development died off. I take care of the course so these rich people can be entertained. So, since they are rich, and the money is there, I think I should get paid at least as much as I did while I was at the engineering company. If not more. Right? I’m 100% with beer monster on this. It’s life. Do what you can to make the best out of it. Be like Chael. Run your mouth, spew lies, take steroids.
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
I’m sorry that happened to you man. I really am. I’m not in any position to tell you how things could have gone any differently for you. But you completely missed my point.
http://www.instrength.com
I think he's trying to agree with you, in a badly sarcastic way
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
So you’re able to “expose” the big money sponsor myth, by talking to a fighter that had 2 professional fights, was fighting on the undercard, and is nicknamed, “meathead”?
You gotta pay the troll toll, to get into this boy's soul.
by WestbergIDFC on Sep 26, 2010 7:00 PM EDT reply actions 8 recs
I don’t think Mitrione getting such a asmall amount that he decides to fire his agent is really proof of anything.
Agreed. All it means is that his agent did a lousy job, and got called out for it. I’m sure Mitrione will have some agents barking round his tree, and they’ll know what his expectations are….end story.
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Sep 26, 2010 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions
*sigh*
I hate articles like this. Not because of the content, but how many replies I type out, think better of, and then delete.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Those fighters are starving while you maintain your silence. Starving.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Sep 26, 2010 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Well, given the limitations put on me, I only have one response.
27-13. Two minutes left. What’s Orton gonna do now, pal?
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Oh he'll keep outperforming Manning
The zebras were just brutal to us in the first half. If you’re going to invest a fucking first round pick in a situational 3rd down option quarterback, USE HIM FOR THAT PURPOSE IN THE RED ZONE.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Sep 26, 2010 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Outperforming Manning? The bias is strong in this one.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
CagesideSeats.com
Follow me on Twitter at GenoMrosko
Dude, look at the stats.
Orton was on fire today.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Sep 26, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, cause stats tell the whole story. Orton has played a hell of a game but he also did what he always does…threw no less than 5 or 6 balls that were horrendous and there is no excuse for. He didn’t outperform Manning.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
CagesideSeats.com
Follow me on Twitter at GenoMrosko
That's laughable
Orton is one of the five smartest/most accurate/least prone to dumb plays quarterbacks in football. Our WR corp is good, but his ability to find the open guy is what makes them great.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Sep 26, 2010 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Manning
Brady
Rivers
Rodgers
Schaub
Maybe top 10?
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Sep 26, 2010 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions
The substance of this article fails to live up to its title
I think there’s a lot to be said about the low pay scale of professional MMA fighters, especially ones in the UFC, but this article doesn’t expose any myths; it just talks about one isolated case and gives a vague and incomplete picture at that. There needs to be more research done, more actual numbers and facts.
That being said, I do have a feeling you’re right to a degree – although this article is woefully anemic in terms of hard facts. As for how to fix it, it seems like the clearest solution is for UFC fighters to unionize. Unionization is the typical and historically most effective solution when a large group of employees are being exploited by an employer. Of course it’s easier said than done, but if they could get a few of the big draws like Lesnar, GSP, and Couture to get behind it, it could get real traction.
by kinzoku_baka on Sep 26, 2010 7:07 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I like the intent of the article
But you don’t present a whole lot of evidence for your case. I was interested when I saw the headline but one anecdote about Mitrione doesn’t make any kind of case about the sport or the UFC in general.
I’d like to see Snowden write out a thought out suggestion on what the fighters can do about it, other then throw out the Union rhetoric.
by KJ Gould on Sep 26, 2010 7:12 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
You act as if any thought out suggestion on what the fighters can do necessarily cannot include any of “the union rhetoric.”
by kinzoku_baka on Sep 26, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably because people forget what unions were originally intended for (safe working conditions, first and foremost), and also the debate about unions in MMA has been done ad nauseam. Are they workers or are they employees blah blah blah.
Yeah, because that's COMPLETELY irrelevant to the issue of compensation, isn't it?
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
Come and see the violence inherent in the system!
Yeah, because unions are bad. Stupid unions bought off politicians so they’d outlaw child labor, they won’t let factory owners lock the workers in the factory anymore and you can’t even fire a chick when she gets knocked up. And now owners have to PAY for the doctor bill when a worker gets hurt? What about the damage the blood does to the equipment. Anyone gonna pay the owners of factories for that? You think anyone’s gonna pay the cleaning bill for the octagon mat for Dana White when Clay Guida goes and bleeds all over it? Oughta take it out of his check.
Marge Schott had the right idea – when Eric Davis damn near lacerated a kidney playing outfield for the Reds, hell if SHE was going to pay for his plane ticket after he was released from the hospital. Damn unions makin’ people feel like they have rights or something. Why should a group of athletes in the same sport be able to gang up on those poor sports owners??? It’s a monopoly on labor, I tell ya! Socialists!
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
by duck on Sep 26, 2010 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions 14 recs
Bless you
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Sep 26, 2010 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh how I love anything Monty Python...
Help! Help! I’m being repressed
Between two evils, I always pick the one I never tried before. -Mae West
You'll never see it,
because there are three types of people when it comes to promoting Unions.
- Those who have never been in one but think it’s a cure all.
- Those who are profitting off of running them.
- Those who by talent and skill alone can’t hope to reach the same pay level as others and simply hope to ride the money train.
by Empty Thoughts on Sep 26, 2010 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm in the fourth group, I guess
People who belong to one and have seen it protect people from unwarranted actions against them by unscrupulous employers.
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
by duck on Sep 26, 2010 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
Perhaps I just have had the pleasure of working for good companies then because in the five years at my first Union job I only ever had one issue where the Union was required to step in and that honestly was my working the system to get more hours. In my second which has last over eleven years at this point I have never once had a reason to approach the Union and honestly I doubt I will in the next eleven.
Truthfully that goes for most of the ‘good’ employees that I know as well. The people who show up on time, do their job to their best ability, and are a pleasure to work with never have issues which require any sort of Union involvement. The people who come in late, do the bare minimum required to keep the job, and generally are just a pain in the ass to work with though are constantly calling up a steward for help because they are being treated unfairly. All the while everybody hired on the same date is making the same pay regardless of what they actually offer to the company or to their co-workers.
Sadly I really enjoy the job so I’ll continue to deal with being a Union member, but in my sixteen years of paying dues I can’t claim to have found a love for Unions. Or to have found the proof that they are still required.
by Empty Thoughts on Sep 26, 2010 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Generally people who claim to fall into that category actually fall into one of the other categories and use claims like that to justify riding the gravy train.
It’s along the lines of me being 34 and claiming have a 9 inch cock and to date a 21 year old with a natural 30G bust whose dad is a swiss banker. Just because it’s true in my case doesn’t mean most similar claims are true. In fact most similar claims are BS.
by thekiltedwonder on Sep 27, 2010 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions
And we've met, uh, when?
So you don’t assume you know a damn thing about me or my job.
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
I never said you were lying
However most people who claim what you claim are lying. Your claim may be completely true. What I said was true too. Doesn’t mean either one is the norm.
by thekiltedwonder on Sep 27, 2010 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions
You obviously think Freidman was right
But unions did wonders for the wage of the worker in all industries in the US. And saying that talent and skill alone make someone reach a higher pay level is false, generally socioeconomic position is transfered by generation. Allowing a worker to have wages that offer a life that is comfortable IMO helps the economy immensely. The trickle down theory has done nothing but aggressively redistribute wealth upward.
Jonathan Snowden: The Glenn Beck of MMA reporting.
It's okay, Snowden.
Dana White “takes care of them in the back.”
These guys get big time locker room bonuses that we don’t know about but are completely positive get handed out. It’s okay that he didn’t make a whole bunch from sponsor or win money because of course he got “taken care of” by Dana.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
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He did get FOTN
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
The title and the article aren't fair at all.
This seems like it’s an isolated case. I’d like to know what the top 40 paid UFC guys get for sponsorship.
So would an awful lot of agents
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
The point of the article was that fighters shouldn’t have to rely on sponsorship to get by, the purse from the UFC should be enough! Amir Khan just got over a million dollars for a gimme fight on free TV against Paulie Mallignagi! More than the entire card cost Zuffa to put on UFC 119! Come on man, that cannot be right!
this statement is completely false.
Every other human being on the planet takes things like perks, bonuses, time off, insurance, etc into account when picking which job to take and comparing various salary offers. there is no reason the UFC should be different.
The problem with that is, I dont give a rat’s dick if Joe Schmo chooses insurance company A over insurance company B. However, I have a MAJOR issue if I dont get to see Gerald Harris again because he couldnt live off 5k a fight, especially if Dana could bump that to a reasonable living wage, say 15k a fight, with virtually no overall impact to the promotion as a whole. A fighter like Charles Oliveira being forced to walk away because he cant make a living at MMA when UFC is raking in cash hand over fist is not a reason to celebrate, or be like “Dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out, SUCKA!”
First: it has been proven that many fighters can work a day-job in addition to their training. So the Zuffa-money for them is a “bonus”.
Second: if someone promising was threatening to walk away, Zuffa would surely react and give him more money. Or Strikeforce or another promotion would snatch that talent away from the UFC. The wages are what they are, because people can make it work, obviously. It might widen the gap between the entry-level fighters and those who have crossed the threshold to where they can afford to train full-time though. But given the potential for big money in this sport, new business models will spring up to support this. Gyms who will let the athletes train for free or even pay them to train in return for a cut of later winnings are already appearing on the scene.
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
That depends
Is your name/are you slated to fight Fedor?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Sep 26, 2010 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d say a slight margin of fighters don’t fit that criteria.
by Hendo_One-Shot on Sep 26, 2010 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions
If they don't want to fight for the money that is offered, they don't have to fight
And if the UFC has to pay fighters more money, they won’t have as many fights/fighters—-and those guys end up in the minor league promotions making a lot less than they would have in the UFC=purpose defeated.
Not afraid to nitpick
Really? You honestly think bumping the baseline pay from,say, 5k to 12.5k would cause Dana to throw his hands up and say “Its been fun guys, but sorry, this extra 40k a card is KILLING us!! We are DONE!!” Cmon, man.
My heart bleeds for the man paying 2500.00 a month in fines to be able to have a slide in his backyard for his kids’ swimming pool.
Dana White is under no obligation to pay guys more simply because he was smart enough to be a part of building a billion dollar business. That’s the way business works. Life’s not fair. Tough shit.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Sep 26, 2010 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Yeah, if you're not smart enough to have the sons of a casino executive as your friends when you're a kid
then you’re just stupid.
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
by duck on Sep 26, 2010 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Yeah, because everyone with rich friends just says “Hey Steve, put 2 mil into this! It’ll be awesome!” Dana White didn’t just sit back and coast to his millions dude. He seized opportunity and earned it, just like your boss did. He doesn’t owe you more money just because he’s successful.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Sep 26, 2010 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No, but I'd argue he owes the Phil Davises of the world
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
Because without the Phil Davises of the world
You’d have 2-3 fights on a card every month rather than 10
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
No, non-main eventers
Are you going to pay $50 to watch 3 fights? No? Then those fighters are contributing to the PPV sales and live gate. And not seeing any of that money.
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
And your first sentences happens WAY more often than you want to admit
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
It’s also perfectly possible with the revenues UFC are making. The mistake a promotion like Affliction made was having 90% of its revenue go to fighters. UFC gives its fighters 5%. Some form of middle ground can – and should – be made.
Can you point me to where you are getting your numbers?
I can’t seem to find any sources to verify your claims.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
The UFC brought in more than a quarter billion in revenue last year.
For the most part, their live gates were around $1 million. Their PPV buys netted anywhere from $1.5 million (300K buys) to $5.5 million (1.1 million buys). Add in apparel revenue, ad revenue, rights fees from various TV outlets.
There’s an average 20 fighters on a card. About 12-14 of those fighters will earn less than $15,000 a fight. Add $5,000 to each fighters pay. That’s $70,000 a card to cover those fighters to give those fighters a chance to pay the bills. That’s ONE bonus check. ONE.
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
You sound like Charles Comiskey
How did that turn out?
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
A bit farther back than that...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sox
Don’t think it can’t happen in MMA. We’re gonna see a fighter take a dive sooner rather than later.
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
Your numbers are not accurate.
Where I live it is 45 per ppv. That is what the providers get. Zuffa gets about half that.
You said that 12-14 guys get less than 15k. UFC 116 saw 8 of 22 guys get less than 15k. 117 saw six of 22 get less than 15k. 118 saw 7 of 20 guys get less than 15k.
I think fighter pay should continue to grow, but your numbers are simply not accurate.
The majority of the UFC fighters are getting 20+ per fight. Is that great money? No, but they make enough to live on.
Looking again at UFC 117 and 118, the majority of the fighters on the card made at least 30k.
What? 20K plus? Are you including win bonuses?
UFc 118 11 out of 20
UFC 117 14 out of 22
UFC 116 15 out of 22
Made 20 K or less without win bonuses
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions
In 2009 the median purse for a fighter in the UFC was $18,500. Fighters averaged 1.77 fights last year. So the typical UFC fighter fought twice and made $37,000.
I’ve been looking in to sponsorship mony, but it’s been really difilcult. I will say with some authority that if you don’t make the broadcast you don’t make jack. Maybe $2000 or $3000 for the lesser known prelim fighters.
And then we have to remember to deduct 30% or more for agents/managers/lawyers, gyms, sparring partner, etc. Not to mention insurance and savings for a short job life, perhaps impaired by permanent disability.
by John Nash on Sep 26, 2010 9:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yes, I do
Because do you know who is gonna get pissed about making 12.5k? The guys already making 12.5k. Suddenly they don’t want to be minimum wage fighters because they are better than the guys who got those raises, and then magically you have to give them raises because if we’re dealing with “fairness”, how is it fair that a D-Level fighter makes the same as a C-level fighter? Oh, now the B-level fighters are pissed that they are making the same as the C-level fighters. Etc.
This bleeding heart stuff always happens in a vacuum where there are no other consequences. If you raise the “minimum”, lots of fighters are going to get cut. Purpose=defeated.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Sep 26, 2010 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
Can you provide an example of where a sport, as it grew in popularity, increased the compensation to the rank and file, and then collapsed? Because generally, the exact opposite happens when you leave hypothetical-ville. Unless of course you think the NBA is less popular now then when they were showing the Finals on tape delay. Ahhhh, if only management would have told Magic Johnson to fuck off when he asked for more money, just THINK of how big the NBA could be now!!!………………or not.
They never increased the pay as it rose in popularity. It started out too high from the jump. Thus the problems.
They absolutely did increase pay
Arlovski made about double what Timmay did.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Sep 26, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
USFL, Arena Football a few times, NFL Europe, Affliction, NASL, too many professional women’s soccer leagues to list, Roller hockey, slamball, CBA, Roller derby
Are you sure about those examples?
Those leagues had a rise in popularity and then increased its compensation to its employees and then collapsed because of the increase?
Or is it because they couldn’t find enough of an audience in the first place? Does the UFC have this problem?
Don’t remember it’s exact name, but the women’s soccer league that formed right after the sports bra chick won the world cup is pretty much exactly that. And the NASL went crazy when the cosmos were able to get 40k people to show up for games, but it’s all the same thing.
We don’t know if the UFC has this problem because we don’t know what they make and what they pay out. We do know that everyone that has paid higher salaries than them is out of business, that has to count for something.
We have a pretty good clue of what UFC makes
We can at least make a ballpark guess. The live gates of most UFC events are announced, and the PPV sales can be estimated with reasonable accuracy.
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
We have an idea of revenue, but very little idea about profit.
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Richard is a jewel." - Kid Nate
by Richard Wade on Sep 26, 2010 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly.
Here we have an example (this article and thread) were plenty of people act like the UFC is clearly raking in money hand over fist with no real proof and yet every other MMA promotion that has tried to do things on the UFC’s scale has gone out of business in an insanely quick amount of time.
I think there is too little information for us to make judgment calls on this. I’d like to have more info, however I don’t expect the UFC to release it simply because that sort of information could be a gold mine to competitors.
In the end, pay is increasing whether or not is as fast as people would like to see and it is the fighter’s prerogative to decide whether or not this line of work is worth its costs.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
Meltzer has said that the WWF makes more revenue (450 M) but less profit than the UFC
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
The WHA (hockey) and ABA are perfect examples of precisely what you’re talking about. They’re the reason the reserve clause was shot down and free agency exists in sports. But they went under because of it.
http://www.instrength.com
Eliminating the reserve clause
was one of the best , most ethical moments in sports history.
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
The reserve clause was eliminated by SCOTUS
after a suit filed by MLB players Andy Messersmith and Dave McNally in 1975.
And MLB revenue skyrocketed in the subsequent decade.
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
It was actually shot down years before that in hockey and basketball The idea that Seitz shot it down and other sports followed suit is a myth.
http://www.instrength.com
WHA was just 3 years previous
and nowhere near as important as the MLB case.
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
It was ABSOLUTELY as important. It set the standard. Just because baseball had a bigger profile means fuck all. It’s just a forgotten piece of history because the WHA went under. And it went under because…they got popular, overpaid their guys, and went in the shitter and folded. Which is why I brought it up in the first place…as an example of what Hutchy was talking about.
http://www.instrength.com
FYI Malki Kawa will be on Ariel Helwani's show tomorrow
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 7:32 PM EDT reply actions
Scoop McGilicutty strikes again!
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Sep 26, 2010 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Did he tweet that or something and I missed it? Sorry sarcasm meter broken.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Malki Kawa was on MMA Junkie Radio on Friday. The guy is a total douche bag, but then I guess that’s how most agents act.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore Roosevelt
If you're not going to share your research
Then the whole point you’re making is a myth as well.
Writing the story as we speak
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Let's try to put things in perspective
First off, I’ve only ever once even read sponsorship numbers for a UFC fighter, and that’s when he (and it’s not Mitrione) aired a grievance with another manager on the UG after he came to said manager with $8K for non-televised fight (and the manager got him a little more). I say this only to be clear that I don’t know shit.
To use the ballpark figures Snowden mentioned, let’s say a guy on the unaired card has a 3/3 contract and gets $5K per fight in sponsorships and he fights 3 times in a year. If we assume he loses all three fights and hasn’t been cut (unlikely), he took home $9K from Zuffa and $15K in sponsorship money, for a total of $24,000 in pay. If he gets 50% of that after manager fees, taxes, trainer fees, etc, he’s basically making minimum wage. But that guy isn’t – or shouldn’t – expect to be a full-time fighter if he’s only on the unaired prelims, and he’s probably working part-time by either teaching at a gym or bouncing (or something more lucrative) and could be doing appearances or seminars. That’s not great by any means, but it’s not bad for a guy that nobody ever sees fighting. One of the benefits to winning fights and getting on air is that – even though your contract pay still sucks – you can demand more money from sponsors BECAUSE more people will see your ad on the fighter’s shirt/shorts/banner. And if you want to think long-term, a single unaired fight in the UFC still allows that fighter to be promoted as a “UFC veteran” by regional promotions, and they should be paying a premium for that (and I suspect they do, but I don’t have Snowden’s unstated inside sources to consult with).
Now, $5000 in sponsorships for a fight guaranteed to air on Spike TV… that’s ridiculous, and it’s why the manager was fired publicly.
And by the way, I do think those fighters should be paid more, but I’m willing to look at what they’re getting paid and why they’re getting paid that amount.
by mma_critic on Sep 26, 2010 8:33 PM EDT reply actions
That 2nd to last line is my whole point. For Snowden to say it's not "outlandishly" low is dubious
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions
The whole basis of your argument is the word “outlandishly”? He said it was “undeniably low.” No wonder he’s making fun of you.
http://www.instrength.com
So I should make fun of you because you CLEARLY either a) didn't read what Snowden wrote or b) are just being willingly obtuse
But for a fighter on a UFC undercard it isn’t outlandishly so
From 5 words down the sentence of what you quoted.
Now you want to come back and debate with those who can read.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Again, the basis of your entire argument is the definition of the word outlandishly. And I’m the one that can’t read. Sure bud. I love how you want to call him out on not adding anything to a discussion with his comments. Pot Kettle Lesnar.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Sep 26, 2010 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
How hard is it to understand?
1. The number is low. Most people say that is a ridiculously low number and is not indicative of what people make, especially someone in Mitrione’s position and therefor that’s why he fired his agent.
2. Snowden says it is low, but it’s not ridiculously low and it’s not that abnormal. He then uses it as evidence that the “big money UFC sponsor checks” don’t exist. It’s not evidence of anything except Mitrione being pissed about his pay.
You’re clinging to a dumb argument because you couldn’t read 5 words down and couldn’t wait to make your little post trying to slag. OOPS.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions
You just like to argue. About anything. OOPS.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Sep 26, 2010 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is basically an admission that you a) tried to be funny and failed and b) have no point
It’s obvious to anyone you tried to crack a quip, looked dumb and are now covering it up
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re very good at drawing inaccurate conclusions, I’ll give you that. If I was trying to be funny, I could do a lot better than that. Dude, you QUOTED THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD in your embarrassing counter-post. You talk and talk and talk, but you say very little.
http://www.instrength.com
No no, your ORIGINAL point was
The whole basis of your argument is the word "outlandishly"? He said it was "undeniably low." No wonder he’s making fun of you.
Stating that I somehow was incorrect in using “outlandish” when that is the KEY to his argument. His argument is that Mitrione’s money (while it is low0) isn’t that much different than what others get. And he provides NO evidence to that point.
How you don’t understand this, I don’t knw.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude, I'm not arguing the definition, I'm pointing out that the word is the key difference in most people's arguments
Snowden: "The number is low, but it’s not a significant anamoly. Therefore, I can use this to say "MMA fighters don’t get big money."
Everyone else: The number is low and so significantly low that Mitrione fired his manager on TV. There’s no evidence linking this figure to the normal fighter pay. Unless you have numbers to back it up, your post had no merit. While we agree that fighters aren’t raking in the dough, your post is weak with evidence."
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions
You: “I talked to 3 fighters on the phone, and that experience leads me to believe that Mitrione’s sponsorship money is outlandishly low.”
Snowden: “You don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about because you don’t have a clue what the status quo is. It’s just a word, dude.”
Everyone else: “He’s right, you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. It’s just a word, dude”
http://www.instrength.com
Uh no, people rec'd him because it was a good piece of dick-waving
I got rec’d for my response 7 times.
He didn’t answer after then. I mean if you’re going to use the comment section as a measure.
And that wasn’t what I said or what he said. He didn’t address anything, he went for the burn. Then he made the same DUMB mistake you did, post that he said it was “low” which isn’t the focus of people’s discussion, the focus is that it is “outlandishly low” while Snowden says it isn’t.
You have a really bad sense of reading comprehension.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Negro, you just said
Everyone else: "He’s right, you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. It’s just a word, dude"
Who is “everyone else” besides you and maybe 2 people?
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions
All the people shitting on your embarrassing counter-post might be a good place to start.
http://www.instrength.com
Again, no one is talking about the "word"
Most people assume it’s a Sub0 like piece.
FYI, only 5 commenters.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Boy I think they like me
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Sep 26, 2010 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Matt should have gotten at least 20k. From what I have heard from a few guys that have fought in the UFC, there is no reason why even the lowliest guy does not make 10k from his shorts, shirt, hat, hoodie and whatnot. Most of them are making a lot more than that.
I was just reading your post on weekly and was gonna cite it (re: Lauzon)
You’re 100% correct. Him being on TUF, him beating Kimbo and the fight being aired on SPIKE should’ve netted him an easy 5 figures with the most competent of agents.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I really, really am interested in this topic.
I have a feeling the UFC is exploiting it’s fighters hugely, with regards to the ratio of income they take in versus what they pay their fighters (including considerations like health insurance). I mean average fighters here, not the top dogs. I’m heavily in favor of a fighter’s union spanning multiple orgs even if the UFC’s toes are on the line, just to make sure they stay there and promotions like Shine can’t keep exploiting those who can’t make it to the UFC.
But Snowden…the fervor in the comments over such a short article should tell you something. The point you’re making is one I’m predisposed to agree with, but that’s just it…my opinion is based on smoke and truthiness (not literal smoke…stay drug free!). You give the impression that you’ll be presenting cold, hard facts (like a real journalist!) and then give us one number with no basis for comparison. Like revolver says above,
If you’re not going to share your research, Then the whole point you’re making is a myth as well.
Like usual, I gotta say

THE TRUTH
SC it’s not. On the average guys in Mitrione’s position last night get around 20-25 TOPS. That’s being generous. The revenue split between Zuffa and the fighters is a disgrace. Boxers make millions for PPVs with MUCH LESS buys, and guess what? Zuffa produces their own shows, therefore doesn’t have to cut in HBO, and boxers make much more in sponsors than the UFC because boxing is A LOT more mainstream. The bottom line is Zuffa are crooks, but the fighters, as ironic as it is, are too cowardly to start a union looking out for each other and demanding a change. They really do run it like pro wrestling. And their corrupt business model is more entertainment than sport.
by Mr Pulla on Sep 26, 2010 8:55 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
How much of this do we actually KNOW?
Everyone’s guessing, saying “There’s no way he’s making less than 20k!” or “He’s only making 5k, most of that goes to training and there’s no such thing as locker room cash!” Which one is true? I’d love to see some real numbers from people making either claim.
I’d love to believe you, it’s just that you have zero evidence.
There are the facts
1. Fighters make what the AC says they make
2. There are a such thing as “Uncle Dana’s Super Happy Fun Locker Room bonus” but they are largely unknown and not guaranteed.
/sarcasm
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Wesley Types aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I should've been more clear
I meant in terms of sponsorships and the locker room bonuses. I know we hear about the disclosed salaries.
yea we don't know because there's no motivation for one fighter to tell
Then he loses leverage.
/sarcasm
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Wesley Types aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Anybody who has evidence knows better than to share it publicly.
I’m interested to see what Snowden is able to come up with for the final post. I remember nottheface working on a fanpost for this topic but I fear he’s been discouraged by a tight lipped industry.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Pretty much
I got a couple fanpost in limbo because
1) I’m lazy
2) I’m busy on my own stuff
3) while people will tell me “stuff” no one will tell me anything concrete or even let me share it anonymously. I’m not a reporter so I have to offer stronger approval deals before I share it (again, even anonymously) but everyone is hesitant. My theory is that people are terrified of pissing off Zuffa (and even Strikeforce to a lesser degree) in the slightest. That isn’t an anti-zuffa comment, that’s just being a realist. The big bucks, purse and sponsorship, is with the UFC, so almost none of the fighters are going to risk going public with any squables and fucking a potential deal. Their domination of the market is so great that no one will speak Ill no matter how frustrated they are.
by John Nash on Sep 27, 2010 6:21 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Was this in response to something I said?
1. To me 25K is 5 times more than 5K. That is VERY significant. If your agent got you 20% of what he could’ve gotten, he sucks. That’s a good number for a guy in his 3rd fight.
2. Salary being low has little to do with the sponsorship debate.
3. Not to take up for the UFC, but them producing their own shows cost money.
/sarcasm
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Wesley Types aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions
1. That 25k figure is as high as it gets and the exception to the rule. 10-15 is the average.
2. What do you mean salary has nothing to do with it? Did you even read the OP? Zuffa diehards always bring up sponsorship compensation as an excuse for garbage salaries.
3. VERY wrong. Haha look you don’t know what you’re talking about. No disrespect. HBO and showtime take a nice percentage of PPV buys, for producing a show. MUCH higher than the cost to run your own production. Not to mention Zuffa is free to run whatever they want including their own advertisers that the fighters don’t get paid a cent from. That’s why Arum does so many Top Rank PPVs now (Latin Fury etc). Zuffa fighters aren’t even getting paid from the video games, action figures, or Zuffa sponsors (Bud, Muscle Pharm etc)
by Mr Pulla on Sep 26, 2010 9:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
1. isn’t 15K 300% more than what he actually got? Isn’t that significant? The answer is yes. Plus Mitrione would be closer to 25K seeing as he beat Kimbo and was on TUF.
2. Let’s just say we have two different points on how to frame the sdiscussion and probably won’t agree.
3. Look at what I said.
Not to take up for the UFC, but them producing their own shows cost money.Now what did I say wrong? Doesn’t the UFC doing all of that cost them money rather than pushing it off on HBO? Yes or no.
/sarcasm
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Wesley Types aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Is this guy serious?
1. Yes 15k is 3x more than 5k. When did I say it wasn’t? You cannot debate Snowden and I at the same time. 15k is still pathetic. As is 25k. After taxes they get nothing. And no Mitrione beating Kimbo on a PPV (not TUF) means nothing. He already had a base contract and sponsorships are normally matched to show money for low level guys.
2. You have no rebuttal. Okay.
3. You tried to counter my point by saying Zuffa produces their own shows. Obviously missing my entire point in the process haha. You’re not even making a point, just talking in circles.
And in defense of Snowden, Zuffa has a monopoly, and that reach includes journalism. If he starts naming facts and posting quotes he will blackball himself. Wannabe journalists not in the know stay at home.
by Mr Pulla on Sep 26, 2010 10:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Listen brother,
1. I agree that fighters should be paid more. You responded to me at the very beginning (to what, I don’t knw). Be clear, nowhere in this thread have I stated that fighters weren’t underpaid. My WHOLE point in this thread is that the myth of the checks HASN’T been “exposed”.
2. Like I said, we frame the discussion differently and would never agree, no point in going back and forth.
3. I wasn’t “countering” anything, just pointing out that Zuffa, as a promotion, pays their own production costs unlike Top Rank as a promotion.
Snowden doesn’t have to post quotes. We know that it will get him in trouble. What he can do is post NUMBERS. He’s talked to enough fighters that we wouldn’t be able to guess who he’s talking about. If he came and said “Out of 30 fighters that I talked to that fought this year on prelims, only half made more than 10K on sponsors.” At least there we have some actual evidence (well as far as you believe Snowden) to frame the discussion on. He provides nothing. That’s people’s point.
/sarcasm
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Wesley Types aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh okay I re read all your posts and was mixed up. I apologize. I agree, it took me one post to throw up some numbers, no reason he cannot. Either these journalists show some heart and talk about the full story or don’t bother and dissect Sherk-Dunham again. My apologies again. God bless have a good night.
by Mr Pulla on Sep 26, 2010 11:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You too sir
/sarcasm
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Wesley Types aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually the fighters do make money off of the action figures as well as posters or any other Zuffa item, excluding DVDs and games.
Personally, I would like to see a small portion, it could be 10-20 cents, of each DVD go to the fighters from that card. The total would have 100 points. Prelim guys might get 2 points (10 guys would be 20 points), main card guys 5 points (3 fights with 2 guys would be 30 points), co-main 10 points (20 more points) and main event 15 points.
So prelim guys might get a half cent per DVD, but it would add to their income. A minor guy that works 3 UFC cards in a year could see his income increase by a few thousand or more.
A small thing, but something more for the fighters.
I agree that guys should get paid more, but I don’t know that I think the UFC, because they make more, should automatically pay a guy a lot more than any other org would. I see both sides of the argument: Market value vs. company revenue.
Boxers make millions for PPVs with MUCH LESS buys
Some boxers get paid most don’t, according to this article anyways.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news?slug=ki-mmamailbag042908
According to state records, Hopkins and Calzaghe were each paid $3 million for their work. The next highest-paid fighter on that card was Audley Harrison, who made $20,000. There were nine fighters who made $5,000 or less, including two men, Marcos Mendias and Jermell Charlo, who made but $1,500.
Pacquiao made $3 million and Marquez $1 million for their epic rematch, but there were five fighters of the 14 on that show who made $3,500 or less.
At the UFC show, the lowest base pay for any of the 18 fighters on the card was the $4,000 that Kyle Bradley made.
The UFC also paid out $60,000 bonuses that night for knockout of the night, submission of the night and fight of the night. Plus, most of the fighters had bonuses for winning, so the opportunity was there for them to double their pay, which was not for the boxers.
Its unbelievable just how little integrity some on this site have. That is the most misleading – and outright inaccurate – headline. You did not expose anything. NOTHING was exposed in this article. As a matter of fact, you didn’t reveal ANYTHING that we all did not already know.
For you to be able to make the claim that you were “exposing the myth of the big sponsorship checks”, you would need to provide information on lots of fighters, from different parts of the card (undercard, main card, televised, not televised, co-main and main event). How much each make from sponsorships. AND not just one fighter from each category, but several people who have fought in each slot and what they made. The reason for that is we need a large sample to know if this is just one guy being underpaid, or maybe a case of a bad agent, or any number of other factors that might have caused that individual to make less.
Next – you were very deceptive with your use of Mitrione quote regarding head injuries. He made it very clear those were from playing football. You cleverly left out the rest of the quote where he went on to say that he enjoyed MMA because he was not subjected to anything close to that level of punishment fighting.
VERY. POOR. DECEPTIVE. MISLEADING. ARTICLE.
The thing that bothers me most is I generally write these things off as just an attempt to create talk, drive traffic etc. If you want to be salacious, gossipy etc. Fine by me. But if that’s what you want to do, then please, please stop acting as if this site holds itself to some “mythical” high standard of journalistic integrity. I don’t care which way you, but pick one and be that. Stop writing articles and comments and badgering other writers for not doing enough homework and then commit the same crime, day after day. Its just not very becoming.
That’s my two cents. If you feel the need to delete this comment since it disagrees with your post and points out your faults, then that is just further proof of the depths this site has sunk to.
Best wishes.
by treyjackson on Sep 26, 2010 9:06 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 13 recs
Is this your first Snowden article?
You are of course absolutely correct.
Snowden always pulls this sensational shit, but as you can tell by the number of comments, it promotes traffic to the site so he’s an asset to BE and that’s clearly the bottom line.
Jon Jones LHW Champion 2011
Gray and Pray LW Champion 2011
is he an asset or was the original text message accurate?
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Sep 26, 2010 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
This is a terrible article
You use the figures someone who publicly fired their manager because they did a poor job at getting sponsorship money as proof that athletes don’t get a lot of sponsorship money. Do you not see the problem with that?
And then, when people call you on it and demand to see numbers, you act high and mighty and refuse to disclose any actual data.
I honestly feel like this is your low water mark, your own personal “UFC 119.”
by Shaun32887 on Sep 26, 2010 9:59 PM EDT reply actions 8 recs
DING DING we have a winner.
/sarcasm
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Wesley Types aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey Snowden
Just a couple questions. I have read many of your articles. Just a tad curious if you would appease my quetions.
1. When did you first get involved or interested in MMA…and how old were you?
2. You seem to have a lot of inside info. Do you not release it for a specific reason?
3. If you do have some inside info, why would you as a “journalist” not talk about it.
I am not a journalist, but I have a lot of inside info, but then again I don’t get paid for my info.
As far as bonuses for sponsorships…I figure it as a moot point. I know many people rely on it for income, but it’s not a set cntacted amount and it can be hit and miss depending on what show.card, etc. you are on.
The military brass makes big paychecks off me, but I don’t get a bonus for being in Iraq and coming under fire. I know how much my normal pay is and that is what I accepted. A bonus? Sure, I would like that, but I signed a contract for a set amount of pay.
www.kickboxingandbjj.com
That’s funny. When we were in a combat zone soldier and civilians both got bonuses for being there. Contractors received a much higher than normal amount of money for their work. That doesn’t really jive with my experience.
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 26, 2010 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Really...I got 15 Years in Air Force and still active duty...
I’m a C-130 Mechanic. You know what my “bonus” is as well as anybody else in the Armed Forces is in Iraq? It’s 3.50 a day, tax-free from Federal, 150.00 a month hostile fire pay and about 175.00 a month Immenent danger pay.
Listen… I was asking a legitimate question, not trying to get into semantics. That “bonus” is nothing. And contractors…totally different senario. They get about 140,000 a year and 100,00 of it is tax free..KBR civilians are paid awesome. My point is, I signed up for a “set price”
So please…dont quesiton me or say my exp. “doesn’t jive with yours”. I’ve spent over 2,000 of my Active Duty time in the desert.
So…now that you tried to just focus and discredit one small part of my post, do I not get an answer on the rest?
www.kickboxingandbjj.com
Thanks for your service. I was just pointing out there is a bonus for being downrange, as well as the benefit of the money being tax free.
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 27, 2010 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions
SO SORRY...
I guess I didn’t follow proper Protocol. I was just curious in y qestions as to where you got your start in MMA and why(if you had any) inside info would you not choose to release it.
Nothing about my question was me being an ass or anything.
I guess I can;t ask you a question and state my own thoughts about bonuses in the same post.
www.kickboxingandbjj.com
Considering Mitrione is hardly a "star"
And has practically no pro MMA experience prior to this I don’t consider it an “exposure”.
It was bugging me as to what Mitrione meant last night. That was fantastic.
Bandwagon leader for Michael Robinson as Seattle Seahawks starting QB.
My theory: too many people agreed with his red-meat post-fight article
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
You guys are a buncha mooks you know that?
Everyone complains about Jon and how he’s bias and a jerk and whatever but you’re the dummies cause posting 300x and reading this story however many times you do means he’s sticking around. God you guys are so dumb, for real.
Also this is a good post as a fighter on a televised bout should be earning more than 5k, that’s the point. Jeez.
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Inevitable...
Despite Zuffa’s dominance of the market, isn’t it inevitable that the athletes will start to consider a union or representation of some kind?….all major sports, of which MMA is edging closer to, evolve over time in this manner….and usually because a Donald Fehr type character gets involved. But boxing, one can say, has been unable to move in that direction and it is the closest comparison…..I think it has been suggested that MMA attracts a greater socioeconomic mix……I would wager Snowden argues it is overdue and it will happen eventually. Or maybe I am getting ahead of the argument?
No. Ask the pro wrestling business which the UFC has modeled itself after
/sarcasm
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Wesley Types aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 26, 2010 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
The UFC modeling it’s business after the WWF has no bearing on the fighters (workers) being able to unionize. The problem is that the UFC actively attempts to block workers (fighters) from unionizing. It is the one thing that would get these guys paid, getting pensions in place etc etc. Management (Zuffa) makes an unbelievable amount off Mitrione fighting on TV, relatively of course.
Jonathan Snowden: The Glenn Beck of MMA reporting.
Honestly...
the thing that keeps the fighters from forming a union is the fighters. What incentive does Brock Lesnar have to help form a union when that union will likely create a situation where Brock’s pay is reduced so that Matt Mitrione’s can be increased? The problem is that the big names and big money earners don’t see why they should give something up for guys who have yet to prove that they deserve more.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
Not to say that you are misinformed about what unions provide...
But you are misinformed about what unions provide…In the case of high wage earners (athletes in particular) they don’t cost the high earners, they essentially raise everyones wages by causing a specific share of the revenue. Zuffa is making so much money off of the fighters, look at it like this, in the NFL revenue sharing is 58 percent…do you think Zuffa gives the fighters even 10 percent…But you are right, because of the reaganization of america, people believe that unions lower earning potential, when the opposite has always been true…
Jonathan Snowden: The Glenn Beck of MMA reporting.
You can't compare the NFL union and a theoretical MMA union...
Brock doesn’t need the Mitrione’s of the MMA world they way Football stars need the other players. Football doesn’t work without offensive linemen no matter how unrecognizable they may be to casual fans and its hard to dissect which players in the team create more income than others. However this isn’t true in MMA.
Its actually blatantly the opposite in MMA. Brock’s value and money making capability can be easily tracked and quantified compared to other fighters. He stands to make much more money in the non-unionized system currently in existence. And the same is true for new, less known fighters like Matt. For a union to work it would need the support of the established super stars and their willingness to sacrifice to achieve that union, so far they aren’t interested. The exact same dynamic has existed in both Pro Wrestling and Boxing for decades and longer with no unions being created. Don’t hold your breathe for a union in MMA any time soon.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
How does the UFC "actively" block?
They do nothing different than the WWE. Pay the top guys enough so they don’t turn. Without the top guys, itll never happen.
/sarcasm
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Wesley Types aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 27, 2010 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions
See Above
on active blocking Active blocking includes, not talking about money to the press (because you know the other major sport leagues don’t do it for the publicity or anything) Holding fighters when they have 1 fight left on their contracts. I also believe that there were some sherdog stories on it back in maybe 2007 (I could be totally wrong though) I thought it had to do with the AKA guys.
Jonathan Snowden: The Glenn Beck of MMA reporting.
I would like to offer up an observation:
This article could easily be titled: The problems with sponsorship money. It could talk about the amounts many assume fighters get don’t always materialize.
Instead, this has been put together as an attack piece and some valid points got lost because of it.
Instead, this has been put together as an attack piece and some valid points got lost because of it.
Hey, you just described the VAST MAJORITY of Snowden’s articles.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
Whaaaat the Hell Snowden? You’re killing me over here. Did your GF just dump you while all your friends stood by and laughed?
Take a moment and sleep on these stories for a little bit before you post them? Are you being paid per word?
Every one of these fighters agree to their contract with the UFC and they all have the freedom to quit the UFC and pursue some other interest. The bottom line is, the free market will prevail no matter how many unions you can put in between.
And as everyone else stated, a post should have something to back up. After I finished reading it I thought it was an exposee on Mitrione’s agent! He fired him because 5k sponsorship money is way too low. And even if it wasn’t too low, let him negotiate a better contract or let him go somewhere else! Or go back to school and get training that gets himself better money. Who are you to decide how the UFC should run their business?
by Dooda on Sep 27, 2010 12:00 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Again, the UFC signs draconian contracts that don’t allow for free agency, consistently block fighters unionizing, sell the images of the fighters (for a lifetime) without paying the fighters for those images, and other such garbage that if the NFL started doing would be run through the coals by the media.
Jonathan Snowden: The Glenn Beck of MMA reporting.
And many of the UFC clauses are used by other companies. Right to cut a fighter after a loss? Bellator and many SF contracts have it.
Championship clause? All current SF contracts have it.
Those companies have contracts of that nature because Zuffa began making contracts with those clauses in them.
Jonathan Snowden: The Glenn Beck of MMA reporting.
And the UFC has those clauses because Pride constantly stole their talent.
Evolution in the sport is a bitch.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
Props to Snowden just when I thought he couldn’t write anything worse than the last 2 articles he put up, he comes up big like the Yankees tonight and tops himself again well done.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
It's always easy to be generous with someone else's money.
If anyone thinks fighters need to be paid more then start writing checks. Put your money where your mouth is.
I think I.T. professionals with kids with special needs should be paid more. It’s no more arbitrary than saying fighters should be paid more.
Mitrione
is simply not a big name fighter. Of course he’s not going to get big bucks from sponsors like GSP, BJ, A. Silva, Lesnar, etc. If you’re marketable and a good fighter, the sponsor bucks will roll in. Being a champ is a big bonus.
A Good Topic in a Poorly Constructed Story
This is a very interesting topic, but because it is constructed so poorly and then defended by the writer like a hurt junior in high school, it causes a multitude of comments of which only a small percentage actually touch on the original topic.
That said, I find it amazing that a writer is so generous with someone else’s money. Moreover, it is a free enterprise system that allows that fighters to go elsewhere and do other things if they decide that the compensation is not worth the effort.
last time I read anything by Snowden
This “article” reminds us that this is really a sports BLOG.. “Exposed”.. C’mon. Then you expose exactly nothing!!
And then Snowden comes up as a total a-hole in the comments.. Bravo.
fell for this crap once
not falling for the sensationalist and inaccurate crap from snowden. I admit I’m not as active in reading BE as I used to be but I hope this isn’t a trend on here. The worst part is when snowden got called out over and over there has been zero rebuttal except ‘oh the REAL numbers are coming out in my next book’. What a joke. Don’t write an infomercial and pass it off as hard hitting jounalism. And props to the army dude who schooled snowden in the comments.
by Discman2 on Sep 27, 2010 8:48 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Yes, he schooled me with inaccurate information. By the way, I am an Army guy. He was in the Air Force.
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 27, 2010 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions
inaccurate how?
what he said was true. BTW its semantics whether it was the army or air force. Different sectors, same deal(military service). Point is he presented information and he proved you wrong. More than can be said about this misleading article. If he was inaccurate, how so? Not that it really matters on that subject of hazard pay in military service but you still arent refuting ANY of your points. Whether it be in regards to the article or in regards to anything else. If you had basis for the article, besides one isolated incident that happened to be overblown on TV, then by all means share with us.
~~
Also, I could have came back with “As inaccurate as your misleading quote on Mitrione?”. Take your pick here.
He said:
I don’t get a bonus for being in Iraq and coming under fire
That’s not true. It’s not really complicated. He presented information that was contrary to his initial point.
by Jonathan Snowden on Sep 27, 2010 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
I understand Snowden you have been looking for a point with the sponsorship money, and that this was low even for what Mitrione was saying, but other than that, means very little in the discussion.
An unpopular fighter with a self admittedly bad manager, fighting on the undercard on a card that’s not that big not making huge sponsorship money…not really a good example. I don’t think it “exposes any myths” at this point.
Nothing was exposed
Inaccurate title, plain and simple.

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