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UFC Fight Night 22 Quote of the Day: Charles Oliveira: Jiu Jitsu Is Above Wrestling

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"We have no wrestlers helping, because the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is better for the ground game. It's above the wrestling. I'm just training normally, nothing special."

"The same way Escudero can put me down, I can put him down too. If Escudero takes me down, I can sweep, I can try some submissions. That's what I'm training for. That's part of the game."

Charles Oliveira talking to MMA Fighting  via an interpreter.

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Hmmm...

I’m a fan of his but this just doesn’t sound like a good idea.

by KenCanFightBear on Sep 14, 2010 12:59 AM EDT reply actions  

Worked

in his last fight. So whatever. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

by Josh Grant on Sep 14, 2010 1:00 AM EDT reply actions  

Fortunately that’s not the philosophy to which the top fighters subscribe, otherwise there wouldn’t be a lot of well rounded guys around.

by HarmlessNinja on Sep 14, 2010 1:22 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Well, it worked for Maia against Sonnen

Sonnen is unquestionably one of the best wrestlers in the UFC, and you can’t really blame Sonnen’s poor sub defense there because he was in a bad position right after the takedown.

The real problem, though, is that you can’t practice defending the takedown skills of a wrestler if you don’t work with any.

by Mint on Sep 14, 2010 6:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

You give an example where Sonnen has pretty much chosen the flipside and lost for it repeatedly.

by Rufford on Sep 14, 2010 8:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

1. Maia has judo to round out his wrestling.

2. If sonnen had any sort of sub defense, he would have known not to roll Maia off and take top position. He was already halfway in a triangle, and should have stayed on his back until he cleared that leg off his shoulder. Noob move.

by judonerd on Sep 14, 2010 8:43 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I just don't understand why Sonnen doesn't understand this

And train BJJ as well. His lack of any BJJ acumen is such a glaring hole in his game.

IMO he is not a new school MMA Wrestler at all, but simply an old school (albeit very high level) wrestler who has adapted his wrestling well to MMA…huge difference…

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer

Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...

by BigDNotDallas on Sep 14, 2010 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think Sonnen just lost focus

He was in Silva’s guard and leaning back, just begging to be triangled. He seems to have learned the right techniques, as he did the right thing after being triangled and thwarted some attempts earlier in the fight.

by Mint on Sep 14, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maia clearly put in some time after his mediocre wrestling cost him any chance of winning against A Silva. His wrestling looked 100% better against Miranda who’s a Brazilian freestyle champ (although that’s not really indicative of one’s being a great, or even apparently a good, wrestler). In any event, if you have an outstanding BJJ game, especially an outstanding BJJ top game, you would be an absolute fool to not work your wrestling as hard as possible.

"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.

by The Darkness on Sep 14, 2010 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

except Maia's

wrestling looked absolutely incredible against Sonnen. He did nothing to improve against Miranda. It’s just that Miranda, like Sonnen allowed Maia to close the distance with sloppy strikes. From the clinch Maia has good take downs — it’s the judo background. Please see my Judo Chop on Maia vs Sonnen.
Maia’s problem against Anderson was his inability to close the distance. If you lunge in on the Spider winging sloppy punches you either get lit up with counter strikes or he slips away, or both.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Sep 14, 2010 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

it’s been a long time since people didn’t understand the distinction between the take down/top control game (greco-roman, freestyle wrestling & ippon judo) and the positional submission game (BJJ, ne waza, catch).

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Sep 14, 2010 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

There isn’t really much point in training to stop Escudero from taking him down on such short notice anyway. Might as well and try and accentuate what he’s already good at.

Not that I condone facism or any ism for that matter. Isms are in my opinion, not good. A person shouldn't believe in an ism, he should believe in himself.

I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me". Good point there, after all he was the walrus. I could be the walrus. Wouldn't change the fact I have to bum rides off of people.

by Sam Cupitt on Sep 14, 2010 1:06 AM EDT reply actions  

“The same way Escudero can put me down, I can put him down too.”

No, you can’t. The most glaring weakness for BJJ at the highest levels of MMA is its lack of training for wrestling-style takedowns and TDD…

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer

Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...

by BigDNotDallas on Sep 14, 2010 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

That depends actually. Many of the high-level BJJ fighters are more defensive than offensive, which isn’t a style you want against a powerful top control wrestler. Oliveira, on the other hand, has a very, very active guard, pushes it high on the shoulders, and threatens consistently. That sort of style can be very dangerous for wrestlers, and I think he’ll give Escudero massive problems in this fight.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Sep 14, 2010 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

I really wish

Some of these jits guys would emphasize wrestling earlier in their careers. MMA will be a lot better when top level jits guys can take someone down control them and work subs from the top. I feel like too many are late to the party with wrestling, top control and take downs. At lest Olivera is young.

by SES 84 on Sep 14, 2010 1:17 AM EDT reply actions  

I disagree with you, Mr Olivera

Oh, we haven’t met? My name is Royce Gracie’s Skull

by MicahC on Sep 14, 2010 1:20 AM EDT reply actions  

i see your point

but terrible example. Royce Gracie lost to a superior MMA grappler, not because hughes has a wrestling background…
people are so ignorant about the gracies. Royce would get rolled even in BJJ competition at the top level

by bluejitz on Sep 14, 2010 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Royce got run out of competitive BJJ

in 1994 by Wallid Ismail.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Sep 14, 2010 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Royce fought wallid with a completely torn rotator cuff.

Then wallid would only rematch him for like 100 grand.
Wallid is a legit fighter and out weighed him. I see no shame in that loss.
Plus wallid has a fantastic story about Pepe beach.

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Sep 14, 2010 9:53 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

200 hundred grand

Fat fingered the last one.

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Sep 14, 2010 10:26 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Royce in the early 90's was one of the best in the world.

That’s when he trained with Rickson and Relson. Only the best in the world stood a chance against Royce in the 90’s. Royces camp for the Hughes fight wasn’t with any of his brothers and no Really high level black belts from what I heard. Relson still talks about it. Plus his body was pretty fucked up by the Hughes fight.
 Honestly I feel like its the new cool thing to dis the Gracies. I don’t get it. Relson in his 50’s would Fuckin murder 99.9% of the population in 60 seconds if they Threw down. Roger Gracie is The Best Bjj black belt on the planet right now. Rickson tools paulo fhilo still to this day(per paulo). Kron is winning tournaments. Royler is an Adcc champ.

So what is this super secret info you have on the gracies? I know the gracies better than most. I would like to hear what you know.

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Sep 14, 2010 9:46 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Probably the other half of the family that slaps their name in cheap instructional tapes, gives away belts in the mail, and utterly fails at applying their skills in modern MMA competition.

I’m loyal to Gracie Barra, and I love seeing the Diaz boys repping the old-school Gracie pride (prove it in the ring bitch), but that’s a big family and there are some real douchbags in there who still think their name makes them immortal.

by judonerd on Sep 14, 2010 10:00 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

I come from Relson lineage.

And I cosign that message.

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Sep 14, 2010 10:41 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

*slaps*

Lol

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Sep 14, 2010 11:05 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

i dont have a secret

but i believe, what you said about Kron, Roger, and Royler is accurate. But seem to think if someones name is Gracie, then they are the best BJJ players in the world. But thats just not the case, maybe it was in the early-mid 90’s, but the Hughes fight took place in 2006.

I come from Royler lineage, so im not trying to disrespect the gracies, i just get tired of people using Royce vs Hughes as an example that wrestling = BJJ

by bluejitz on Sep 14, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

the-gentle-way

just curious where you train and what your background is, belt rank etc. Not trying to call you out or say you dont train, but you seem to know alot so im just curious

by bluejitz on Sep 14, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Olivera is failing to understand the situation. He is saying that he can counter the wrestling of Escudero with his Jiu Jitsu, that if it hits the floor then he will be able to sweep and threaten with submissions but I see this fight playing out the same way Escudero fought Cole Miller, he will use his wrestling to prevent the takedown and keep it standing.

by KillaPo on Sep 14, 2010 1:24 AM EDT reply actions  

which won't be fool proof

since Oliveira has good striking and lots of TKO wins.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Sep 14, 2010 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Doesn't this just remind you of the same mindset that BJ Penn had against Edgar???

“I don’t have to worry about his strong suit, because my strengths counter his whole gameplan.”

Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p

by ChicagoMarine on Sep 14, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hornbuckle was a good striker with great BJJ, and Askren was still able to force the ENTIRE fight into a transitional scramble. Not that Efrain is Ben, but there is a real no-mans-land in wrestling that BJJ and striking can’t find purchase in. Should be a good fight.

by judonerd on Sep 14, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

well Askren

is also a FAR better wrestler than Efrain, I mean miles and miles beyond AND he is a brown belt in JJ I think.
Efrain has shown no signs of becoming a Matt Hughes style wrestler-grappler.
I expect he’ll look to keep it on the feet at all costs.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Sep 14, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I’ve only seen Efrain a couple times. He seems to have a great knee tap, but I don’t remember anything else.

Askren is a purple, BTW.

by judonerd on Sep 14, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

He’s a purple, actually, though he did win a round at the ADCC’s before Popovich took him out. Seeing as Popovich won the whole damn thing, that’s not exactly a thing to be ashamed of.

by Hummus5989 on Sep 14, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

The thing that frustrates me as a wrestler and BJJ competitor alike is how bad takedowns must BJJ fighters tend to have. Of course a good BJJ guy can sweep or submit off his back but it’s becoming more and more of a rarity these days and even if it weren’t; the purpose of a sweep is to reverse into a dominant top position. Why not take your opponent down in the first place instead of having to go through the process of setting up a sweep? Of course wrestling and BJJ are two different sports but it’s folly to think that simply pulling guard or working the bottom game in BJJ is anywhere close as effective as it was in the old days, especially in MMA where being on one’s back is even less desirable than normal.

by dreamers_12345 on Sep 14, 2010 1:54 AM EDT reply actions  

I keep thinking that someone is going to integrate wrestling into BJJ

As essentially a completely different style.

I remember watching Ryan Gracie in PRIDE and wondering where he learned such effective takedowns…

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer

Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...

by BigDNotDallas on Sep 14, 2010 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

some BJJ guys train quite a bit of wrestling and/or judo

Andre Galvao and Demian Maia come to mind.
Other BJJ-based MMA fighters like Gleison Tibau and Ronnys Torres (who really deserved more shots at the UFC) have really good wrestling take downs.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Sep 14, 2010 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve never seen Torres, but that is true about Tibau. There are a few guys who have already melded the styles in various ways (GSP, Shields, Jones to a degree), and several of the up-and-coming new school guys (Askren, Davis) have done so as well. Under the current rules, that style (a true MMA wrestler) is the future IMO.

My background is wrestling and judo, with essentially no BJJ training, but the biggest weakness of judo for MMA Wrestling is that almost all judo techniques are predicated on the gap already being closed. While that works well with (or against) Greco, it is not effective by itself against the new school MMA Wrestlers for takedowns or TDD.

The only guy I can think of with elite or near-elite TDD that does not have a wrestling background is Lyoto Machida, but I have never seen him face a truly high level MMA Wrestler. My most anxiously anticipated fight at LHW is Machida-Jones for that very reason.

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer

Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...

by BigDNotDallas on Sep 14, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

let's not forget that Machida

studied Sumo WRESTLING for a long time starting in his teens.
Judo banning double legs from competition only makes it less applicable to MMA.
You also didn’t mention the lack of gi. Sadly only Karo Parisyan has really modified his grips to apply a wide variety of judo moves to MMA.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Sep 14, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I HATE that I cant go for double legs anymore.

Goddamn Hansoku-make every time. Oh well, I still nail people with it doing randori and they cry and I tell them to cry somewhere else.

by SilverNBlackZach! on Sep 14, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

shields,Maia, jacere, xande

Renato "Cyborg " Abreu …. those are just off the top of my head.

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Sep 14, 2010 10:45 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Roberto not Renato

Not trying to be a dick, just trying to prevent future faux pas since you jitz it up.

"Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."

by menckenstein on Sep 14, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

my bad

I knew that too. I just call him Cyborg mostly.

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Sep 14, 2010 12:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

i got him and tarves names crossed for a second.

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Sep 14, 2010 12:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

It's ok

My mom rolls off her brothers, my brothers and her husband’s name before she gets to mine.

"Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."

by menckenstein on Sep 14, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nogueira and a bunch of the Gracies also train judo. Hell, Anderson Silva even has a black belt.

by Hummus5989 on Sep 14, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can be successful in BJJ without ever attempting a takedown

You get 2pts for a takedown and 2pts for a sweep. Simply sitting down denies your opponent the chance to get takedown pts, and then say you get 2 pts for a sweep you’re already in control of the match, esp. against a wrestler who’s not comfortable off his back.

I actually think someone should start applying inverted guard (one of the most important guards if you’re going to play the sit down game) to MMA. Since you’re spinning quite fast it’s actually not that risky that you get hit in the face, at least in theory, and it opens up a lot of leg lock game

by IpullguardIRL on Sep 14, 2010 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Why are we not seeing more JJ specialists working a top control game?

While its great that JJ specialists are very strong on their back, many wrestlers are very weak once they end up on their back. Once on their back many wrestlers simply try to stand back up rather than attempt a submission. It seems to me that it would make much more sense to use JJ in top control than from the bottom. Other than Maia and Shields I can’t think of a JJ specialist who uses takedowns to set up top control.

by MrPants on Sep 14, 2010 2:07 AM EDT reply actions  

Its just really hard to take down good wrestlers if you’ve only been wrestling for a few years at most

"You should work for 15 minutes to knock your opponent out, submit him, or improve your position to give yourself the best chance of doing either." - Dan Hardy

by Day Man on Sep 14, 2010 3:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Roger

Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.

The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino

by Patrick Tenney on Sep 14, 2010 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well I guess he doesn’t so much as take down as slap people with the hand of god and suddenly appear on their back or in mount.

Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.

The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino

by Patrick Tenney on Sep 14, 2010 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

His technique is devine.

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Sep 14, 2010 11:11 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Babalu

started out as a wrestler, then trained luta livre (no gi submission grappling) then took up BJJ

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Sep 14, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

it’s a lot easier said than done. The point in wrestling is to be on top. They might not have trained the specific BJJ sweeps, but they know how to stay on top.

by Phildo on Sep 14, 2010 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

I Like the cut of his jib! +1

by moonlapse88 on Sep 14, 2010 2:27 AM EDT reply actions  

good luck with that

http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/

by Cory Braiterman on Sep 14, 2010 3:02 AM EDT reply actions  

From the James Toney school of fight planning

"You should work for 15 minutes to knock your opponent out, submit him, or improve your position to give yourself the best chance of doing either." - Dan Hardy

by Day Man on Sep 14, 2010 3:08 AM EDT reply actions  

that’s funny, I actually had a conspiracy theory earlier today that the reason why so many jj prospects are being signed (check the newcomers on the undercard for UFN 22) is because they are looking for someone to take out the wrestlers

by Disco1Stu on Sep 14, 2010 3:12 AM EDT reply actions  

You can't blame him for thinking like this

At lower levels of competition, you don’t necessarily need wrestling, especially with a super-active guard like Oliveira’s. Efrain’s probably going to give him a wake up call, though.

"You hear people say, 'You're the greatest,' and all this stuff. It's BS. It's fake, it's all fake. You've just got to keep training as hard as you can. The only thing real is the fight, everything else is fake." - BJ Penn

by crazybones on Sep 14, 2010 6:18 AM EDT reply actions  

Exactly. Someone with some sense. Oliveira isn’t your standard BJJ player. Very active guard equals some defensive posturing by Escudero on the top, and that’s going to allow Oliveira to either sneak back to his feet or stay relatively unscathed.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Sep 14, 2010 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

He can have a chat with Miguel Torres after

by bigweeze on Sep 14, 2010 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

well Charles did throw a triangle like 3 seconds after his last opponenet took him down

by P86 on Sep 14, 2010 6:48 AM EDT reply actions  

I think he'll have success against Escudero

But he better drill a sub set up off a takedown like a motherfather if he’s going to have that mindset about it.

"Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."

by menckenstein on Sep 14, 2010 8:38 AM EDT reply actions  

Here's a controversial point:

If you lived in bizarro world where you could only study EITHER BJJ or wrestling, and the same was true for everyone else, BJJ is a much better choice.

But Charles here doesn’t live in that world, and all the BJJ isn’t going to help him against a dominant wrestler who knows enough not to leave an arm or a leg hanging out.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Sep 14, 2010 8:38 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I think that’s right.

"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.

by The Darkness on Sep 14, 2010 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

well put

BJJ has become less of a force now that nearly everyone in MMA trains it. I think eventually wrestling will become the same way, not as big of a deal because everyone trains it.

I consider myself a softcore fan.

by Thor77 on Sep 14, 2010 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

except

I believe it’s harder to learn wrestling since so much of it is muscle memory and a lot of it is very subtle body placement stuff. It’s going to be hard to catch up with guys who’ve been wrestling since age 5.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Sep 14, 2010 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is very true

The future IMO are the new school MMA wrestlers who began integrating BJJ (or other submission grappling styles) into their wrestling game back in high school and before.

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer

Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...

by BigDNotDallas on Sep 14, 2010 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

its just time on the road. there is no substitute for mat time.

Its really hard to make up a decade of training in either. The difference is judging favors wrestling. A no time limit, no judges ,no rules/japanese rules fight favors jiu jitsu.

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Sep 14, 2010 11:02 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I completely agree about the time issue

But the guys who learn both essentially simultaneously as they are growing up will be better able to integrate techniques from one into the other along the way will be more successful than those who are high level at one and try to add the other after the fact – it is just not as intuitive for them

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer

As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus

by BigDNotDallas on Sep 14, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

argreed

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Sep 14, 2010 12:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

the main thing

is starting young IMO.
Also it’s easier to learn how to avoid submissions and sweeps, especially if you already have top control, than it is to learn to avoid take downs.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Sep 14, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oliveira after the fight:
Escudero just wanted to hump me like a bitch. Wrestlers are ruining MMA.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift

by Scott C. Broussard on Sep 14, 2010 8:53 AM EDT reply actions  

Haha

This makes me like Charles even more!

"Vo-cab-u-lary's necessary when diggin' into my library..."

by TDITZ on Sep 14, 2010 8:59 AM EDT reply actions  

Lost in Translation?

This could be a case of the telephone game: Maybe Oliveira said he believes his jiu jitsu is better than Efrain’s wrestling or there is too little time so he worked on sharpening his jiu jitsu to the best of his abilities. His interpreter might have mangled it in relaying it to Ben Fowlkes.

Or Oliveira could be misguided.

by AngryTwinkie on Sep 14, 2010 9:08 AM EDT reply actions  

Forever Waiting for the Great MMA Skill Convergence ...

You’d think that in a year in which “one-dimensional” fighters like Werdum and Sonnen put in some of the best performances of their careers that people would get over this fetish for “well-rounded” fighters.

The conventional wisdom is that there is going to be this great convergence of skills sets in MMA. There will be some. But not nearly as much as people think. There will still be “one-dimensional” fighters and, more importantly, “one-dimensional” champions, for years to come.

by burien top team on Sep 14, 2010 10:34 AM EDT reply actions  

not so sure about the one dimensional champions

fighters sure, contenders maybe, but name one champ since matt hughes that is one dimensional. i think MMA is growing too fast and there are so many options for peoplpe to join the sport from so many backgrounds, fighters are going to come into the UFC with a very deep well rounded skillset.

ufc fan boy all the way

by georgehouse on Sep 14, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

As for truly one-dimensional, there are not many elite level guys, although I would argue Lesnar is more one-dimenional than Hughes is/was…Hughes was kind of the prototype (maybe even version 1.0) of the MMA Wrestler…

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer

As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus

by BigDNotDallas on Sep 14, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Lesnar is already winning fights with submissions

AND dropping people on the feet. He’s flirting with being three dimensional.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Sep 14, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Hughes was two dimensional

he had good wrestling and solid submissions.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Sep 14, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not that it isn't kinda a whack quote to be throwing out there-but from a technical perspective he's right

The top game in wrestling is totally different than in MMA, and for the majority of the technique isn’t really applicable at all. There are take-downs for jiu-jitsu that in overlap with wrestling take-downs, and depending on how liberally you cram things in under the jiu-jitsu umbrella/borrow from other areas, jiu-jitsu could cover a lot of ground. Most BJJ/JJ teachers will teach you how to shoot/defend shots. I think saying that BJJ ground game is better is not that crazy.

The point that would be crazy is ignoring reality. Because wrestlers spend much more time working take-downs and don’t have to worry about dividing their time with gi/no gi technique and practice, they are generally more elite at this area. And even if the technique is not applicable for top control there are mma trainers who can mold a top control gameplan that focuses on a wrestler’s trained advantage in positional control. Just because there is more technique in BJJ that is directly applicable to MMA’s ground game doesn’t mean a thing when faced with an opponent who is exceedingly good at a few specific areas and has trained themselves mentally and physically to be ready to carry out that game-plan not matter what. And not having a single person with wrestling expertise at your camp is just ridiculous at this stage in the game.

by Balrog on Sep 14, 2010 11:24 AM EDT reply actions  

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