Josh Koscheck, Dana White, James Toney, the UFC and the Last Word on the Great Pro Wrestling in MMA Debate
Luke Thomas ended his diatribe against those who insist on using Pro-wrestling terminology to discuss MMA with the following:
"I don't know Pro Wrestling terminology and I think I'm probably a lot more informed because of it."
That's where I have to part ways with my good friend and colleague.
I agree with Luke that attempting to over-simplify the real life drama of MMA into a black and white, good-guys-and-bad-guys template is lazy and robs watching the sport of much of the fun. But refusing to draw on any of the lessons taught by pro wrestling leaves MMA fans very open to being played for fools.
Ignorance is rarely useful in aiding understanding and this is no exception.
The reason that an understanding of the carnie tricks employed by pro wrestling to take money from the marks is helpful to the would-be astute watcher of the MMA scene is simple: MMA fighters and promoters use many of the same tricks.
Luke acknowledges this to a degree, but he misses one obvious point -- pro wrestling is the place where modern fight promotional methods were first perfected for the mass media age and in the post-Kayfabe era it's where fight promotion first went post-modern.
The reason pro wrestling promotion operates on a higher level than all but the most gifted fight promoters in other branches of combat sports is this: they're selling a fake fight. Everyone knows their product is fake and yet somehow they still manage to make millions of people care enough to pay money to find out what will happen.
Luke was flummoxed by some of Chael Sonnen's antics building up to UFC 117 -- particularly when he blatantly and obviously lied to Jim Rome about not making comments that had been recorded. But had Luke been more familiar with the work of such masters of crowd manipulation as Ric Flair and Roddy Piper, he'd have recognized an old trick.
More on that in the full entry.
The Ultimate Fighter 12 debut coverage
K.J. Gould wrote an incredible analysis of Luke's comments on Pro Wrestling, here's a key take away:
Luke Thomas recognises that Pro Wrestling formulated a method of evoking a response by tapping into its audience's psyche, but doesn't think sports or at least certain personalities in sports have adopted or adapted this method from Pro Wrestling. He instead suggests that because it has always existed - this method of promotion through manipulation in some form - that Sports or sports personalities stumbled upon this notion outside of Pro Wrestling's influence and in spite of its existence (when earlier acknowledging its influence on MMA, at the least). Stating this method existed before Pro Wrestling as evidence that Pro Wrestling couldn't have influenced sports promotion, especially fight promotion is a stretch of the imagination at best. It's like saying Blues existed first, so Hip Hop directly took from Blues and ignored Funk's utilisation of Blues, because the person making the argument has a distaste for Funk even though Funk was clearly sampled a lot among other Blues spawned genres in the development of Hip Hop.
I agree Pro Wrestling can't lay claim to every extroverted personality out there, and that it doesn't take a Pro Wrestling influence to exaggerate your own ‘natural' personality, but when it comes to Sports and theatrics in sports - and by its very nature theatrics are forced and not organic - dismissing any possible influence from Pro Wrestling in favour of something else that's likely to be less influential but more palatable than Pro Wrestling just shows a flawed argument with a clear bias.
When it comes to MMA and the comments made about X fighter acting like a Heel or Y Fighter acting like a Face it's usually because that fighter has done something out of character, but more importantly something that feels contrived for the purpose of promoting themselves or the fight.
...Now, sports don't need a background story to get people to watch, although if there is one it's a bonus and can add more to it. The sports that are mainstream are so because they're not controversial by nature and are socially acceptable, and because they are so ingrained in our lives through multiple decades of tradition. Combat sports, or combative entertainment in Pro Wrestling, don't have that luxury. Pro Wrestling is Trashy. And as Luke Thomas will point out himself MMA is Ghetto. Boxing may have the tradition, but it's missing the social acceptance other sports have. Some other sports aren't without controversy but the tradition and social acceptance covers for that.
Combat sports will not get mainstream attention on their own merits as a sport and it often takes something outlandish and theatrical to get noticed. But that's better then not being noticed at all which would be the case without this type of promotion.
Saying you prefer the real life complexities of people in sports to the fictional portrayal of Pro Wrestling is fine, as well as disliking any contrived promotion in MMA, but the true mainstream sports don't need these human complexities to drive them or make real money. In their cases the competition is enough. MMA however needs conflict; real or not it doesn't matter come fight time.
Here's where James Toney and Dana White come in. According to Dave Meltzer, the dean of pro wrestling writers and also one of the top MMA writers, Dana White and James Toney cooked up and executed their entire feud long before James Toney began following Dana White around and publicly challenging him. From the Wrestling Observer (subscription required):
While Dana White presented the idea that Toney had started following him around (Toney started appearing at UFC press conferences starting late last year cutting promos; clearly coming across like an angle had already been agreed to), challenged his fighters, so he would do the fight to shut him up, in actuality the fight was first proposed and negotiated for by White in 2006. Couture, at the time retired, was asked if he'd come out of retirement to face Toney, and he agreed, but the negotiations fell apart.
The entire James Toney debacle was a farce played out to rile up UFC fans and yet, most fell hard for the angle that James Toney "talked smack about the UFC" and "paid the price".
Wrestling fans know better than to take anything coming from a promoter or a performer at face value. MMA fans would behoove themselves to be equally wary.
Example #2, Josh Koscheck's declaration to Ariel Helwani that he plays a "bad guy" in the UFC to make money. Geno Mrosko breaks it down:
...Whether fans love you or hate you, it's all about making money. That's the entire reason for doing it all. Yes, there are other reasons that guys fight but money is the most important one and I'll never let anyone convince me otherwise. That's what pro wrestling is and that's what MMA is.
Pro wrestling started as a carnival act. Lure the marks in with the promise of violence, only to give them a worked fight where they aren't actually hurting each other, and in fact are protecting each other, so they can do it again the next night and make more money. When the fights weren't enough they created characters and gimmicks to play to the crowd with. It's a tried and true method. If you get people to hate you and love your opponent, they will pay to see him kick your ass. MMA is the extension of this method because it's the ultimate payoff that pro wrestling cannot give us. When they get in that cage they will actually be trying to hurt each other.
The connection is in the build up. Koscheck is openly admitting that he will play the heel to counteract George St. Pierre's babyface persona. He's not saying he will do it because that's just who he is and he won't change for anybody. He's saying he will blatantly play a role if it means he makes more money. That's pro wrestling the whole way. Chael Sonnen never actually came out and said that but he was doing the same thing. He was presenting a character that was very much like himself but with the volume turned all the way up. Whether anybody wants to admit it or not, it's a tried and true method of fight promotion.
...
MMA and pro wrestling share so many similarities that you would be blind if you can't see it. Koscheck just came out and confirmed it. The goal is to make money and guys will do whatever they have to in order to do so. If they have to borrow a few pages out of the pro wrestling handbook then so be it. We all need to just accept it for what it is. It doesn't make MMA any less real or any less entertaining. The product in the cage remains the same and that's what really matters at the end of the day.
Personally I haven't watched pro wrestling in 25 years, although I did check in on it during the 1990's "Monday Night Wars" hey day. But I have found that paying attention to the commentary of those coming from a pro wrestling perspective like Dave Meltzer and Zach Arnold has dramatically improved my understanding of the business of MMA.
That does NOT entail blinding myself to the very real and multi-faceted human complexities involved in the sport. In fact, I'm obsessed with the nuances. Which is why I've been working on a series about the contradictions between Randy Couture's public persona and his real nature for weeks now. His lawyer slowed me down for a little while, but we got past that. Keep your eyes peeled.
But the moral of today's story is that it's better to be a "smark" who is attuned to the kayfabe and carnie tricks than a TUF-n00b who buys every bit of B.S. coming from Dana White and his stable of fighters.
Earlier installments of this series:
- Luke Thomas and Jordan Breen Make the Case Against Viewing MMA Through a Pro Wrestling Prism
- More on the Great "Keep Your Pro Wrestling Out of My MMA" Debate
My Nobel Peace Price worthy Chael Sonnen series:
- The Kayfabe of Chael Sonnen - Putting Anderson Silva Over
- Did Chael Sonnen Quit, Cheat, or Choke Against Anderson Silva? It Don't Matter, He's Still the Hero of UFC 117
- Ed Soares and Dave Meltzer on Chael Sonnen's "Quick Tap" Against Anderson Silva at UFC 117
- Wrong Again: Chael Sonnen's Flagrant Lies Make Fans More Likely To Believe the Fix Was in at UFC 117
- Preliminary Estimates Have UFC 117 Doing Near 1 Million Buys, Chael Sonnen Puts Anderson Silva Over the Top
- MMA Is Not Pro Wrestling and Shouldn't Be, or Did UFC 117 Show That Every Fighter Needs Kayfabe in His Arsenal?
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But the moral of today’s story is that it’s better to be a “smark” who is attuned to the kayfabe and carnie tricks than a TUF-n00b who buys every bit of B.S. coming from Dana White and his stable of fighters.
There is a third option for fans who don’t have to worry about being journalists: Willing suspension of disbelief. I know good movies are fake, but I don’t care. For a couple of hours, I’m happy to pretend they’re real.
Sergio Non,
MMA writer, USA TODAY
http://mma.usatoday.com
by Sergio Non on Sep 13, 2010 4:11 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
I like option number 3
I can be aware that I’m being sold a bill of goods and still enjoy it.
It’s a happy balance between ignorance and cynicism.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
As long as the movie is good, I don't care how it's marketed.
Same with MMA. I know when i’m getting the hard pitch from Dana. He can’t sell me a bad fight that I don’t want to pay for. I think fans like being hyped up for the event. It’s part of the fun. The build up to the event.
As far as playing the “bad guy”….. it’s been done in pro wrestling, boxing, and MMA forever. um…. don’t know why it’s a thing to debate now.
true true
I know that’s how I watch! Ironically.
As a fan I’m the uber-mark. I buy everything. Watch everything I can. Don’t have the psychic energy to root hard like I did in the old days though. God I HATED some fighters back in the day.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
this is an excellent point
as long as you don’t suspend disbelief in the sport itself and only the aspects of individual persona’s and business that surround it
The sea refuses no river. The idea is to remain in a state of constant departure while always arriving. It saves on introductions and goodbyes. The ride does not require explanation - just occupance.
by Johnathan Willis on Sep 13, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
i prefer to know i am marking out to the job that toney
Was doing for Couture. Plus it gives me use all the wrestling lingo I know from growing up in tampabay.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Sep 13, 2010 4:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Its funny though that this has become the de facto standard for MMA fandom on the internet. You never see boxing fans try to hype themselves up for ridiculous nonevents. Meanwhile, internet MMA fans go crazy for crap fights over paper titles no one is watching so long as there is a decent video package that they can call “true sports build” preceding it. Its cultivated an entire culture of people for whom MMA is personal validation.
by VirtualBalboa on Sep 14, 2010 8:08 AM EDT up reply actions
MMA fans are insecure
Everything must be the BEST in order to give themselves validation and push closer to mainstream.
/sarcasm
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Wesley Types aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 14, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
UFC/Wrestling,face or heels
This debate has been running wild for weeks now.I must say that some fighters now see for them to be market by the UFC they must take on a gimmick.Guys like John Fitch will probably never get the big push,because of style and personality.A guy like Chael Sonnen started all this with his heel antics,and now he’s a marketiable fighter to the public.
by TERRENCEFROMSOUTHEAST on Sep 13, 2010 4:14 PM EDT reply actions
Tito Ortiz and Ken Shamrock
built the modern UFC with this approach. Let’s not give Chael all the credit.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Chael just re-ignited the debate in recent months
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Sep 13, 2010 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I would have to say Tank Abbott was the first UFC heel.
I agree that Tito and Ken were the modern versions. Tank was able to pull off both sides. He was a heel towards his opponents and a face towards his fans. If you were to do a poll of all time favorites in the UFC I would think Tank is still top 10 -20.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
by whardiek on Sep 13, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It may go back a little futher

If you want to hear my opinion on Les Miles go to BJPenn.com.
by DayGeaux on Sep 13, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I was thinking Kimo running into the cage to celebrate an injured Royce Gracie
Mothers know nothing about creeping marauders burrowing through the snow toward the kitchen where only you and you alone stand between your tiny, huddled family and insensate evil.
by Barack Lesnar on Sep 13, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Kimo, wasn't as good as Tank was though.
Hell, look at Tank’s record in the Octagon. He was 8-10 in his UFC career. Nowadays, no one would have a chance to go 8-10 and be invited back. Not even Couture. That was my point.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
what was that guys name? I cant remember for the life of me?
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
Thank you.
For some reason, I always thought Harold Howard was the guy Joe Son repeatedly punched in the balls. That still give me chills thinking about it. I know it wasn’t Harold Howard.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
He mixed karate and judo, or was it jujitsu? The result was somehow disappointing.
I'm a lover not a fighter
his biggest claim to fame is a W over Royce.
In Royce’s Prime. That is something Howard can live off of to this day.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
Royce’s team threw in the towel before the match started because Royce was hurt
If you want to hear my opinion on Les Miles go to BJPenn.com.
I know, it was Kimo that caused the towel to be thrown in.
But, it’s still listed as a w for Howard. An anomaly, yes. But, like I said before, Howard if smart enough, could market the W over Royce for the rest of his life.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
His biggest achievement

Karate + jujitsu = axe kick to butt scoot?
I'm a lover not a fighter
by spectaa on Sep 13, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
he was a
Real stone cold. Hard drinking hard fighting biker. I was a fan. I liked the Gracie brothers more.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Sep 13, 2010 4:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Seeing Vitor not old enough to drink yet Belfort tool Tank is one of my fondest childhood memories
Mothers know nothing about creeping marauders burrowing through the snow toward the kitchen where only you and you alone stand between your tiny, huddled family and insensate evil.
by Barack Lesnar on Sep 13, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
it
Was a good day sir…. it was a good day.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Sep 13, 2010 5:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
definitely!
Jim Brown and Jeff Blatnick seemed pretty taken aback by Abbotts ferocity, and his comments after his fights with Matua and Varelans cemented him as a heel with purists and a face with beer drinking fans everywhere.
Stillllll…I have a problem with quotes like: “Koscheck is openly admitting that he will play the heel to counteract George St. Pierre’s babyface persona”. Does anyone really believe Koscheck came up with his heel persona all the way back in TUF and stuck with it until now to counteract GSPs “babyface persona”? P-lease.
I’m not even 100% sure how much of Chael Sonnen’s thing is an act. There’s also the possibility that the guy simply is half-crazy. Actuall, thinking about it, the most obvious “acts” I can think of are Cotoure and Carwin, who seem to be trying to market themselves as something they are not.
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
I agree with you
Koscheck is a…well, he is what his act says he is.
No one thinks he’s making up a character wholesale, but most of the best pro wrestlers don’t even do that anymore. What they do is take themselves and go from a 5 to 11. Stone Cold was a redneck who loved beer, he just amped it up on TV. Koscheck is a…well, you know, and he just amps it up in front of the camera.
/sarcasm
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Wesley Types aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 13, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
sooooooo…..um, yeah….football season is back
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
fo sho. looking for a 2-0 weekend for the greater Baltimore/DC area
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Sep 13, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I gotta root for you because Housh, Cory Redding, and Josh "Pistol" Wilson were good with the Seahawks
4 years, 4 coaches, 7 league road wins, 0 playoff games, 1 GM. Fire Mo Johnston.
And I must root for you because....
I’m from Tacoma.
by Brandon Starr on Sep 13, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Damn you must really love Hawaii
Mothers know nothing about creeping marauders burrowing through the snow toward the kitchen where only you and you alone stand between your tiny, huddled family and insensate evil.
by Barack Lesnar on Sep 13, 2010 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
It has its pros and cons.
Pro: Less guns here.
Con: Harder to get a gun here.
by Brandon Starr on Sep 13, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
nope
just compiling stuff that’s already been published. Not a reporter.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I’m intrigued. That was a good teaser.
If you want to hear my opinion on Les Miles go to BJPenn.com.
Yeah
I’m pumped
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Honestly
I don’t get what the big deal is. It’s an individual sport that rewards outsized personalities and stars. Yeah, it’s like pro wrestling. But it’s also a lot like boxing. Hell, it’s a lot like tennis in that way too (McEnroe).
by Josh Grant on Sep 13, 2010 4:20 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
this this this this this this
this this this this this this this
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Sep 13, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Nah, in tennis you win, you become champ
There’s no arbitrary force deciding shots.
Mc got rewarded in endorsements.
/sarcasm
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Wesley Types aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 13, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Stands to reason all the same. Big personality one way or the other, you matter. And you matter big time. Especially in an individual sport. Besides his greatness, Tiger’s fiery attitude are well known outside and inside the golf world, same with Daly. Especially in a sport that isn’t covered very well you need to act outsized and be bigger than life. And yeah they do it in pro-wrestling but let’s not act like that is the only other arena where that type of thing happens.
So what Sonnen acted like an ass leading up to the Silva fight? Guaranteed it made more people care, regardless if it reached outside of the hardcores/casuals. Look at Rampage. You think Rampage would be a big deal if he didn’t act like he did? No. Otherwise he’d just be Rashad. Who the UFC pays like a superstar even though he’s really not and most of his PPV buys are pigging backing off of something else (Rampage, Forrest, Nog vs Mir’s TUF coaching match-up, etc). Personality sells a lot of the time. And that’s what really matters. Plus at the end of the day we’re talking about two guys fighting. Where else has the mainstream seen this? Boxing and pro-wrestling. Boxing uses theatrics and drama to drum up sales. But because Brock is there and because there is wrestling in the cage, they only pigeon-hole MMA as the ones borrowing from the WWE.
Anna Kournikova
never won a title of distinction, but raked in millions. She was a hottie who milked it with magazine cover shot deals, celebrity dating and posters.
That was stuff outside the sport
Not by WTA itself
/sarcasm
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Wesley Types aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 13, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
The WTA
encouraged it, by giving her exemptions, appearance fees etc…
She was one of the first exploited along this alley, but she won’t and isn’t the last.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/jon_wertheim/news/2002/09/30/mailbag/
She was ranked though due to some skill
The WTA just didn’t put her in the finals. You can’t compare sports with rankings to UFC
/sarcasm
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Wesley Types aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 14, 2010 4:10 AM EDT up reply actions
She actually won quite a bit as a doubles partner
of Martina Hingis.
"Deserve's got nothing to do with it." -Will Munny, a known thief and murderer, a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition.
by PapaBumpants on Sep 13, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t athletes act as personas in all sports? I personally always felt Dennis Rodman angles towards greater fame with the help of a gimmick, but hey I just might be retarded.
Doesn’t most team sports involve some sorts of feud-ism to increase ticket sales. As long as you don’t fake the outcome there is a notable difference. Anna Kornikouva wasn’t one of tennis best payed players for years and years because of tournament accolade….
Oh Rodman the good old days when multi colored hair and piercings were enough, my girl told me Lady Gaga wears a fucking meat suit? Talk about pro wrasslin.
Mothers know nothing about creeping marauders burrowing through the snow toward the kitchen where only you and you alone stand between your tiny, huddled family and insensate evil.
by Barack Lesnar on Sep 13, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Lady Gaga is one of the most packaged, awful products of all time.
It is unbelievable that people think she’s more than a cookie-cutter pop star. She’s Madonna’s hypersexuality mixed with Alice Cooper theatrics turned up to 11 for a desensitized contemporary audience. Fucking amazing that people fall for her image still.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
very well put
she looks like a male version of david bowie
The sea refuses no river. The idea is to remain in a state of constant departure while always arriving. It saves on introductions and goodbyes. The ride does not require explanation - just occupance.
by Johnathan Willis on Sep 13, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
At least Bowie didnt hide his penis
Mothers know nothing about creeping marauders burrowing through the snow toward the kitchen where only you and you alone stand between your tiny, huddled family and insensate evil.
by Barack Lesnar on Sep 13, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
haha
The sea refuses no river. The idea is to remain in a state of constant departure while always arriving. It saves on introductions and goodbyes. The ride does not require explanation - just occupance.
by Johnathan Willis on Sep 13, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Except Bowie was a supremely talented guy and actually had some eccentricities.
The dude held his own on a duet with Freddie effing Mercury. ’Nuff said.
Lady Gaga could easily be replaced by any white girl with a halfway decent ass and attention seeking habits. She is a substitutable ingredient in an terrible, post-situationist product.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
i agree
jus makin a joke
The sea refuses no river. The idea is to remain in a state of constant departure while always arriving. It saves on introductions and goodbyes. The ride does not require explanation - just occupance.
by Johnathan Willis on Sep 13, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Marilyn Manson or Soujla Boy would have been my choices.
Mothers know nothing about creeping marauders burrowing through the snow toward the kitchen where only you and you alone stand between your tiny, huddled family and insensate evil.
by Barack Lesnar on Sep 13, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
lol @ soulja boy
The sea refuses no river. The idea is to remain in a state of constant departure while always arriving. It saves on introductions and goodbyes. The ride does not require explanation - just occupance.
by Johnathan Willis on Sep 13, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Same reason I don’t buy the “Millions tune in to watch a fake fight aint it amazing?” No it’s not amazing millions of people are tools.
Mothers know nothing about creeping marauders burrowing through the snow toward the kitchen where only you and you alone stand between your tiny, huddled family and insensate evil.
by Barack Lesnar on Sep 13, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
People constantly overestimate the masses
Most people are stupid. That’s just how it is.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
But, of course, she isn’t unique in any way. She is exactly one part Madonna and one part Marilyn Manson. She looked at two people who received massive amounts of attention—Madonna for being hyper sexualized and scandalous, and Manson for being aggressively controversial—and instead of saying, “Let me come up with something new in that same family of publicity,” said, “I’ll just do both of those things, all the time.”
Changing Manson to Alice Cooper was an interesting choice. I preferred the Cracked version though.
"Sometimes hype just ain't enough." - Jens Pulver on his win over BJ Penn
by lowellthehammer on Sep 13, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, this is the one I read:
There is a monumental disconnect between Gaga’s melodramatic self-portrayal as a lonely, rebellious, marginalised artist and the powerful corporate apparatus that bankrolled her makeover and has steamrollered her songs into heavy rotation on radio stations everywhere.
She is the diva of déjà vu. Gaga has glibly appropriated from performers like Cher, Jane Fonda as Barbarella, Gwen Stefani and Pink, as well as from fashion muses like Isabella Blow and Daphne Guinness. Drag queens, whom Gaga professes to admire, are usually far sexier in many of her over-the-top outfits than she is.
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/public/magazine/article389697.ece
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Read that Paglia article this morning. My favorite observation from it:
Although she presents herself as the clarion voice of all the freaks and misfits of life, there is little evidence that she ever was one. Her upbringing was comfortable and eventually affluent, and she attended the same upscale Manhattan private school as Paris and Nicky Hilton. There is a monumental disconnect between Gaga’s melodramatic self-portrayal as a lonely, rebellious, marginalised artist and the powerful corporate apparatus that bankrolled her makeover and has steamrollered her songs into heavy rotation on radio stations everywhere.
I could barely read that. I don’t feel like cutting the whole thing apart on a blog about MMA, but it reads like some out of touch mid-40s art critic doing his approximation of yelling at kids on the lawn. The only thing that’s worse is George Will complaining about how people wear jeans.
by VirtualBalboa on Sep 14, 2010 8:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh jesus, I just realized it was Camille Paglia. She is among the worst writers in the history of time.
by VirtualBalboa on Sep 14, 2010 8:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Outstanding work, Nate.
Very well done.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
CagesideSeats.com
Follow me on Twitter at GenoMrosko
By the way nice SEO with that title Nate.
Mothers know nothing about creeping marauders burrowing through the snow toward the kitchen where only you and you alone stand between your tiny, huddled family and insensate evil.
Toney?
Mothers know nothing about creeping marauders burrowing through the snow toward the kitchen where only you and you alone stand between your tiny, huddled family and insensate evil.
by Barack Lesnar on Sep 13, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Indeed. I just did a search on “Josh Koscheck UFC” in Google News and this was the 2nd item that came up.
Sergio Non,
MMA writer, USA TODAY
http://mma.usatoday.com
I checked
to verify that and you are right, sir. It’s cool too because my name pops up in that. Kid Nate helping a blogger out.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
CagesideSeats.com
Follow me on Twitter at GenoMrosko
If someone comes back with that “Pride fans that aren’t Wrestling fans are hypocritical” shit, I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger.
I'm a lover not a fighter
by spectaa on Sep 13, 2010 4:45 PM EDT reply actions 8 recs
those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers
Mothers know nothing about creeping marauders burrowing through the snow toward the kitchen where only you and you alone stand between your tiny, huddled family and insensate evil.
by Barack Lesnar on Sep 13, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
AND YOU SHALL KNOW My name is the lord when i lay my hands upon thee.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Sep 13, 2010 4:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 5 recs
Read that book. Spoiler Alert: Everybody dies in the end.
If you want to hear my opinion on Les Miles go to BJPenn.com.
one of them comes back from the dead though
:p
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
seriously though
talk about overgeneralization by whoever came up with that argument, he shall remain nameless as to not add 300+ comments to the thread!
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
Name names. I have a slow work day damn it
Mothers know nothing about creeping marauders burrowing through the snow toward the kitchen where only you and you alone stand between your tiny, huddled family and insensate evil.
by Barack Lesnar on Sep 13, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
ha
but in contrast I don’t have much time today :(
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
Set your watch back and lets do this damn thing
Mothers know nothing about creeping marauders burrowing through the snow toward the kitchen where only you and you alone stand between your tiny, huddled family and insensate evil.
by Barack Lesnar on Sep 13, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Fuck that guy and his high horse
Mothers know nothing about creeping marauders burrowing through the snow toward the kitchen where only you and you alone stand between your tiny, huddled family and insensate evil.
by Barack Lesnar on Sep 13, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I take umbrage
/sarcasm
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Wesley Types aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 13, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I actually don't agree with Geno
I wouldn’t go that far. I don’t think there is pro wrestling in every MMA thing.
In Chael Sonnen/Silva? Yes.
In Maia/Miranda? No.
But nice to know you were thinking of me.
/sarcasm
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Wesley Types aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 13, 2010 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought he meant Snowden, hope your ego survives.
Mothers know nothing about creeping marauders burrowing through the snow toward the kitchen where only you and you alone stand between your tiny, huddled family and insensate evil.
by Barack Lesnar on Sep 13, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha how do you get Snowden from Shane Carwin Michaelson?
"If by romantic, you mean homosexual"-Luke Thomas
“he shall remain nameless as to not add 300+ comments to the thread!”
Mothers know nothing about creeping marauders burrowing through the snow toward the kitchen where only you and you alone stand between your tiny, huddled family and insensate evil.
by Barack Lesnar on Sep 13, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Because...I comment and it starts a big argument
see every thread I post in
/sarcasm
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Wesley Types aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 13, 2010 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
We've had our disagreements
But you’re Bode avatar is all right by me. You’re a fucking soldier man.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
So you and Snowden have more than just one thing in common.
Mothers know nothing about creeping marauders burrowing through the snow toward the kitchen where only you and you alone stand between your tiny, huddled family and insensate evil.
by Barack Lesnar on Sep 13, 2010 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
hey now
you specifically made the claim that Pride fans were wrestling fans, and the ones who didn’t think so were “hypocritical”. come on now, don’t change things… you always do that. Back up what you wrote now.
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
I said that if you liked Pride, you had to like pro wrestling
because they were very similar (and they were)
Here they are talking US MMA, not Japan.
/sarcasm
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Wesley Types aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 13, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
If someone comes back with that "Pride fans that aren’t Wrestling fans are hypocritical" shit, I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger
this is the comment we’re discussing here, nice try though.
I said that if you liked Pride, you had to like pro wrestling
because they were very similar (and they were)
and you also said the ones who didn’t were hypocrites… again, overgeneralization.
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
I went throught that a couple of discussions ago myself, shame so few people seem to understand what Pride was in terms of it’s Puroresu roots. Still I guess it’s easier to bash the messenger instead of discuss the issue.
Of course
/sarcasm
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Wesley Types aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 13, 2010 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions
no bashing
it’s a matter of opinion, if feel that way, I don’t, SC Michaelson feels that way, others don’t. An opinion is not a fact, we had a discussion and that was that, nothing more nothing less. I wouldn’t just generalize things regarding one side or the other on the matter though…
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
It is what it is in this case, Pride was one step from Japanese pro wrestling, that isn’t an opinion it was how it was designed from the very start to be. That has nothing at all to do with what people in the US think of as pro wrestling thought, Japanese pro wrestling is a very different thing in a lot of ways. Of course my point was about the silly bashing of a poster.
ok, let’s backtrack here a bit.
1 – the argument was made that Pride is much like Pro wrestling (this claim was made in general, ie not “Japanese style Pro wrestling”
2 – only after people fired back at that claim, then the idea of “Japanese” pro wrestling tactics was introduced into the argument.
3 – the very first comment in this comment bracket was a joke, not really bashing anyone. However, saying a group of people is somehow “hypocritical” for liking one thing (Pride FC) and not another (pro wrestling or Japanese pro wrestling if you want to spin it) is however, bashing… that’s not our side bashing yours, it’s your side bashing ours… to be fair, you were not the one who came up with that, but you do defend it.
4 – it is a matter of opinion that you may view Pride FC was somewhat Pro wrestling-like. facts are facts, anything else is a matter of opinion. It’s not a fact that Pride FC was somewhat Pro wrestling like, you made an argument for how you feel it was, and that’s called an opinion. People are also making the case that US based promotions are also Pro wrestling-like, and I don’t agree with their opinions either.
5 – Even if Pride FC was somewhat Pro wrestling-like (I’m not saying that it was, but for arguments sake I’ll concede), that doesn’t equate to people who like Pride FC also like Pro wrestling… That’s like saying, whoever enjoys soccer also likes hockey… which isn’t the case. I myself love soccer and can’t stand the hockey, I’m sure there are a bunch of hokey fans who can’t stand soccer. I guess I should consider myself hypocritical to that as well? should the hockey fans feel hypocritical as well?
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
1 – the argument was made that Pride is much like Pro wrestling (this claim was made in general, ie not "Japanese style Pro wrestling"
Japanese style pro wrestling is pro wrestling. Compare it to Indy car racing and NASCAR racing, they are different in a lot of ways but they are both still automobile racing and racers can and sometimes do race in both. I dislike NASCAR and I’m not much of a fan of indy car racing but I do still enjoy other automobile racing, disliking a sub-set doesn’t mean you dlslike the sport as a whole. Pro Wrestling is the set, WWE pro wrestling or one of the many different styles of Japanese pro wrestling are sub-sets of that, disliking what US audiences are used to seeing as pro wrestling doesn’t mean that a person has seen all that pro wrestling has to offer.
2 – only after people fired back at that claim, then the idea of "Japanese" pro wrestling tactics was introduced into the argument.
Yea I avoided most of the discussion but for goodness sake Chael Sonnen contacted Roddy Piper to talk about cutting promo’s. Of course pro wrestling was a part of that (Japanese style vs US style had nothing to do with that discussion).
3 – the very first comment in this comment bracket was a joke, not really bashing anyone. However, saying a group of people is somehow "hypocritical" for liking one thing (Pride FC) and not another (pro wrestling or Japanese pro wrestling if you want to spin it) is however, bashing… that’s not our side bashing yours, it’s your side bashing ours… to be fair, you were not the one who came up with that, but you do defend it.
It was a smart ass remark directed at a specific poster, it does happen quite often but lets not pretend it was anything else. Not sure when sides were picked here or why either side has to bash anyone on this instead of having actual discussions?
Whatever his point was or what he said doesn’t take away from what Pride actually was. It was based on a style of Japanese pro wrestling from day one, about the only thing that was different from that product was that the matches weren’t predecided(for the most part), of course that was nothing new to Japanese pro wrestling audiences either. When people talk about wishing that US MMA was more like Pride then many of the things they bring up were Japanese pro wrestling based (the video packages, the presentation style, the ramps and promo screens, the pageantry involved, the crazy screaming Pride lady, the production values, many of the fighters and even many of the ways the rules were implemented). People who say “I wish the UFC was more like Pride” and say they “hate pro wrestling and want nothing at all to do with it” …….. well not sure what more needs to be said on the subject. That is what I am defending, love or hate of pro wrestling is pure personal opinion but what Pride was and wasn’t is based on what Pride actually was, a pro wrestling style based promotion by a production company that also put on pro wrestling events.
4 – it is a matter of opinion that you may view Pride FC was somewhat Pro wrestling-like. facts are facts, anything else is a matter of opinion. It’s not a fact that Pride FC was somewhat Pro wrestling like, you made an argument for how you feel it was, and that’s called an opinion. People are also making the case that US based promotions are also Pro wrestling-like, and I don’t agree with their opinions either.
Normally I would agree but in this case it’s not a matter of opinion at all, it is exactly what it is(see above). Everything Pride did was straight from the same play book as Japanese pro wrestling and DSE also put on pro wrestling events. Its not my opinion it is what it is.
US promotions aren’t based on pro wrestling in that manner at all, heck the UFC tries to distance itself from US pro wrestling as much as possible but that doesn’t mean that there isn’t quite a bit of cross over there too(see Chael Sonnen). What shocks me the most is that there is even any discussion of this more/less such a heated one. Seriously I don’t understand why people care so much about this either way? There is nothing to get upset about, it is what it is. Whether someone hates pro wrestling or not is 100% irrelevant to whether there is cross over between pro wrestling and MMA, it’s not a threat to anyone nor is it an emotional issue.
5 – Even if Pride FC was somewhat Pro wrestling-like (I’m not saying that it was, but for arguments sake I’ll concede), that doesn’t equate to people who like Pride FC also like Pro wrestling… That’s like saying, whoever enjoys soccer also likes hockey… which isn’t the case. I myself love soccer and can’t stand the hockey, I’m sure there are a bunch of hokey fans who can’t stand soccer. I guess I should consider myself hypocritical to that as well? should the hockey fans feel hypocritical as well?
Hockey and Soccer are completely unrelated, MMA and shoot wrestling share a common heritage. Shooto, Pancrase, Rings and ZST are all directly pro wrestling based, the whole Japanese MMA industry is pro wrestling based, yes it is also martial arts based but then Japanese pro wrestling is also very based in martial arts too. The UFC tries very hard to be different that the WWE due to the stigma on pro wrestling in the US but in Japan being related to pro wrestling is what is to be expected by viewing audiences and even the basis for the rules of the sport in Japan come from shoot wrestling. This isn’t something that is completely different like hockey and soccer, shoot wrestling(real pro wrestling competitions) is a huge part of MMA both past and present.
When people talk about wishing that US MMA was more like Pride then many of the things they bring up were Japanese pro wrestling based (the video packages, the presentation style, the ramps and promo screens, the pageantry involved, the crazy screaming Pride lady, the production values, many of the fighters and even many of the ways the rules were implemented). People who say “I wish the UFC was more like Pride” and say they “hate pro wrestling and want nothing at all to do with it” …….. well not sure what more needs to be said on the subject (so I said it twice). I’m not going to tell people what they like or dislike, that is just plain stupid(and I don’t care what anyone else likes or dislikes anway) but I do wish people would stop injecting emotional feelings into this discussion and just look at actual imformation staring them in the face.
not sure if any of the following will make any sense, I'm almost falling a sleep here... I'll come back tomorrow and see if I need to clear anything up
Compare it to Indy car racing and NASCAR racing, they are different in a lot of ways but they are both still automobile racing and racers can and sometimes do race in both
F1 FTW!
Not sure when sides were picked here or why either side has to bash anyone on this instead of having actual discussions?
a debate has two sides arguing, in this case one side in this issue believes Pride FC is like Pro wrestling while the other doesn’t. and we’re having a discussion, a pretty civil one I think :p
When people talk about wishing that US MMA was more like Pride then many of the things they bring up were Japanese pro wrestling based (the video packages, the presentation style, the ramps and promo screens, the pageantry involved, the crazy screaming Pride lady, the production values, many of the fighters and even many of the ways the rules were implemented)
hey, I loved the crazy wild screaming lady, she was the bomb! they should definitely get her in the UFC. Listen, you’re missing my point, you can make connections in anything you want. I presume you don’t think the UFC is Pro wrestling like (correct me if I’m wrong). People can also make the same connections and say, the gladiator intro is like pro wrestling, the televised weigh-ins must be like pro wrestling (why not get two guys who may shove one another on national TV to bring up the rates?), hell, just the other day they had a piece here on BE claiming the Dana/Toney fiasco was all worked, that’s definitely pro wrestling style. but I still would not consider MMA as a whole to be anything like pro wrestling (even though it does share aspects that seems to come from pro wrestling). it’s just the nature of the beast, they are trying to sell tickets and these things are part of game.
. People who say "I wish the UFC was more like Pride" and say they "hate pro wrestling and want nothing at all to do with it" …….. well not sure what more needs to be said on the subject
okay, why do you think these people “hate” pro wrestling? It might have something to do with their fights being telegraphed and fixed… just because they may want to add things to the promotion, doesn’t mean they like pro wrestling… when you say “pro wrestling” in general, you are embodying everything that is pro wrestling (worked fights included) and comparing it to the people who likes the promotional aspects from Pride and then say it’s the same…
That is what I am defending, love or hate of pro wrestling is pure personal opinion but what Pride was and wasn’t is based on what Pride actually was, a pro wrestling style based promotion by a production company that also put on pro wrestling events.
can a company sell two different products at the same time?
Everything Pride did was straight from the same play book as Japanese pro wrestling and DSE also put on pro wrestling events. Its not my opinion it is what it is.
if you have enough time you can make an argument for anything. it’s not quite it is what it is. don’t know the word for it in English, but you are basically arguing from “association”, well, Pride FC is owned by these mob group, who also owns this other venue that is strictly pro wrestling, they are Japanese and the way they do business is fishy, so it must be pro wrestling! (I’m sure I’m doing a piss poor job here, but cut me some slack, it’s very late here and I was just about to turn off my computer when I saw your reply hehe).
US promotions aren’t based on pro wrestling in that manner at all, heck the UFC tries to distance itself from US pro wrestling as much as possible but that doesn’t mean that there isn’t quite a bit of cross over there too(see Chael Sonnen).
there is a lot more than Chael Sonnen, look no further than Dana White himself… yet, I wouldn’t be crazy enough to compare it to pro wrestling. but one could make the case, using the same tactics you are using here.
Seriously I don’t understand why people care so much about this either way? There is nothing to get upset about, it is what it is.
who is getting upset? we’re having a discussion, you are presenting your argument and I’m presenting my rebutals, the guy who started this bracket was making a joke. No one is getting upset…
Hockey and Soccer are completely unrelated
not true… hockey and soccer are very much related, but that’s an opinion of mine and not a fact, you are welcome to have yours too :p
When people talk about wishing that US MMA was more like Pride then many of the things they bring up were Japanese pro wrestling based (the video packages, the presentation style, the ramps and promo screens, the pageantry involved, the crazy screaming Pride lady, the production values, many of the fighters and even many of the ways the rules were implemented). People who say "I wish the UFC was more like Pride" and say they "hate pro wrestling and want nothing at all to do with it" …….. well not sure what more needs to be said on the subject (so I said it twice)
repeating yourself won’t make it true brother. I won’t repeat what I wrote though, I actually don’t think everything I say is 100% true, they are just my views, so I won’t make claims such as “don’t know how else to put it” or “don’t know how else to say this”. I personally think that’s ignorant to say… but that’s just me.
I’m not going to tell people what they like or dislike, that is just plain stupid(and I don’t care what anyone else likes or dislikes anyway) but I do wish people would stop injecting emotional feelings into this discussion and just look at actual information staring them in the face.
well, that pretty much says it all don’t it? Your way of thinking is pretty much “I’m right, you guys are wrong” and period? and from your writings, it appears you’re the one getting a bit hyped there, I assure you I’m cool though, I’ll sleep okay, I’m almost out already on top of my laptop, fuck it, I’m out, can’t type no more hehe.
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
Gorgeous Josh Koshcheck
The Human Orchid.

by Bandaka on Sep 13, 2010 5:21 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Giving it the old college try?
Mothers know nothing about creeping marauders burrowing through the snow toward the kitchen where only you and you alone stand between your tiny, huddled family and insensate evil.
by Barack Lesnar on Sep 13, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
If it first you dont get greened
try try again
I'm just here for the dogfights and prostitutes.
by Earl Montclair on Sep 13, 2010 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Fighters use similar techniques that wrestlers do
But everybody does. If you want to say everybody that “plays heel” is influenced by the kayfabe of post modern pro wrestling, by all means go ahead I guess. But that definitely means Joaquin Phoenix and Dwayne Wade are huuuuuuuuuge Gorgeous George fans. Also, why am I de ja vuing so hard right now.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
i'm not claiming that every fighter
who uses these techniques got them from pro wrestling. i’m saying that it’s worth while to pay attention those analysts — meltzer and arnold primarily — who look at MMA from a pro wrestling based vantage point because they catch a lot of the bullshit that MMArks like me fail to catch.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Oh and
if we want to talk about a non-individualized sport using “pro-wrestling” techniques to get attention to drum up hype, just look at the New York Jets. Mediocre to good football team but because they act like asses and have a “good-looking” qb, they get a huge hype job. They are a love em or hate em commodity that sells well. Just like someone in pro-wrestling.
But had Luke been more familiar with the work of such masters of crowd manipulation as Ric Flair and Roddy Piper, he’d have recognized an old trick.
Damn…so pro-wrestling promoters invented lying?
Bob Arum thinks I'm a white Nazi skinhead even though I'm a brown grad student (with hair)
This thread has been rehashed many times. What I get from it is more about the commentators.
Seems Pro Wrestling fans want to justify their love for the show in the face of criticism. When they shouldn’t be so insecure.
And MMA fans want to justify their denial in the face of reality. When they shouldn’t care.
An up-side is that BE commentators are pretty funny folk.
I’m a one time pro-wrestling fan but now that I’ve grown up I find it quite shallow and mature. However, accepting pro-wrestling style promotional tactics in MMA is something I find quite hard to stomach. It’s one thing when everything from interviews to media releases are controlled by the same body in pro-wrestling because without the theatrics and set-up betrayals nobody would watch WWE. In MMA however, when you lie outright a la Chael Sonnen to Jim Rome, you’re lying to the independent media which strikes me as stupid.
Bob Arum thinks I'm a white Nazi skinhead even though I'm a brown grad student (with hair)
I agree on Chael lying to the media to their face being on the line or past it. Luckily Chael isn’t MMA.
Just to be clear, by ‘thread’ I meant the subject in general and not your post in particular.
But to draw a definitive parallel with pro-wrestling is ridiculous. And this topic is getting very old, very fast. I don’t and probably will never understand how adults can delude themselves into enjoy WWE. But then again I too enjoy a good movie as much as the next person.
Bob Arum thinks I'm a white Nazi skinhead even though I'm a brown grad student (with hair)
again
I don’t watch WWE and haven’t in 25 years. The point is that pro wrestling, with it’s almost entire reliance on promotional skills is the best at fight promotion, much like real wrestling with its emphasis on take downs is the best for that skill or jiu jitsu is the best for submissions. When you have a bunch of dudes competing solely on their ability to sell a “fight” they experiment a lot and get real good at it.
The point isn’t “pro wrestling is great, you should watch it”, the point is that some of the techniques of crowd manipulation used by MMA fighters and promoters are very well understood by pro wrestling fans and commenters. If you want to understand the scams and promo angles being played by Dana and company, pay attention to Meltzer, Arnold and Cage Side Seats.
If you want to be a mark and get played without ruining your fantasy that it’s all real and Tito and Chuck really do hate each other, go right ahead.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Sep 14, 2010 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions
no
I’m referring to the gambit of making a preposterous claim in a recorded forum and then later denying you said it. Sonnen definitely learned that from Flair or from one of his political mentors like Tom DeLay who also used the tactic.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I disagree. That’s not just pro-wrestling. That’s any con-man or attention seeker in history. Chael brazenly lied to an independent media after maligning one the world’s greatest athletes with no evidence whatsoever. What pro-wrestlers do is in an entirely fabricated environment making whatever tall claims they make invalid in a real world situation.
Bob Arum thinks I'm a white Nazi skinhead even though I'm a brown grad student (with hair)
I didn't say it was "just" pro wrestling
I said that if you were familiar with Ric Flair’s promotional techniques, you would have seen through what Chael was doing rather than thinking he was just being a stupid asshole.
He was ACTING like a stupid asshole to piss people off.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Sep 14, 2010 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Of course he was. But to say that it is inexplicable without a knowledge of pro-wrestling gives it way too much credit. The best way to build a hype about something is to build around a rivalry and get everybody on one side or the other. No wonder India and Pakistan cricket matches get enormous viewerships…
Bob Arum thinks I'm a white Nazi skinhead even though I'm a brown grad student (with hair)
I'm not saying it's inexplicable without
pro wrestling knowledge, just saying that is was inexplicable to a lot of people who happened to lack pro wrestling knowlege and was easily explicable to people who knew pro wrestling.
anyone who’s a student of PR, con artists, etc would have gotten it.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Sep 15, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
He does post a lot of great content. I’d love to have him front paged on Cageside. He’d be a good addition anywhere.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
CagesideSeats.com
Follow me on Twitter at GenoMrosko
by Geno Mrosko on Sep 13, 2010 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Look
Like I said it was toney’s first MMA fight and he made a wrong decision in the way he defended the takedown… He said after the fight in the locker room he is not done… I dnt think ufc should jus let him go, give him another fight on like a " Fight Night " show, he did sign a multi fight dealno he’s not going to headline an event after a loss, but it is his first MMA fight, bring him back on a fight night on sports net or spike and see what happens……Toney got caught up in the wrong frame of mind, He forgot what e was there to do… and that was punch, when randy came in, he decided to defend the take down like an MMA fighter , instead of doing what he was there to do and throw punches. if he would have punched Randy in the head when he came in, the whole lanscape of that fight could have changed. … anyways on to the next Toney!!! it was his first MMA fight, We here for tommorrow not yesterday…Lights Out Baby

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