Shinya Aoki Loathes American Wrestlers Too
by Mike Fagan on Sep 10, 2010 1:56 PM EDT
in MMA Interview
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The debate about wrestling's place in mixed martial arts used to be confined to various message boards around the Internet. Now fighters are using the medium of interviews to flame each other back-and-forth. MMA Fighting provides the latest cannon fodder:
"The American wrestling style - punching a little bit, getting a takedown and moving to side control to win the round has no risk. It's an easier fight. It's just using the judges. They don't even have to worry about injuries or anything like that. There is no risk."
...
"Would you like to see Frankie Edgar vs Gray Maynard? Do you think it would be interesting?" Aoki asks.
I answer truthfully that I don't think it would be very exciting.
"Right! I'm a huge fan of the UFC, but I think that it hasn't been very interesting lately. There are good fighters of course but not so many interesting fights. They punch a little bit, then get a takedown and every round is just a repetition of that."
"I am a big fan of aggressive fighters like BJ Penn, Joe Stevenson, Kenny Florian, Melvin Guillard and Nate Diaz.. Everyone else is just wrestling and it's not interesting at all."
It feels like only yesterday (it was) that Nate Marquardt said, "[Y]ou shouldn't complain about it, you should learn it and learn how to defend against it," in response to Dan Hardy's anti-wrestling rant.
I wonder what Aoki thinks about butt-scooting for 25 minutes.
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Shinya Aoki Loathes loses to American Wrestlers Too
"Tons of blacks and their big black wrists"-Luke Thomas
by II SMASH II on Sep 10, 2010 1:32 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
Once
He lost one time to an American wrestler. Maybe he just honestly does prefer the Japanese philosophy towards fighting where a decision isn’t a perfectly fine way to win.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Specifically, wrestler thinks its a perfectly fine way to win? A lot of BJJ players win by decision too, if you’ve noticed?
strikers too.
look at all of Hendo’s post PRIDE UFC fights. (other than Bisping of course :)
Semper Fi'
WatchKalibRun.com
Pain don't hurt...
Where he is furiously looking for the finish?
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
When strikers go to decision we see some awesome fights.
Usually. Damn you Kimbo vs Houston Alexander!
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 10, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
The best moment of the fight was wrestling...
Guillotine.
by iiowyn on Sep 10, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
ironic
Semper Fi'
WatchKalibRun.com
Pain don't hurt...
by RolloTomasi on Sep 10, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is the same Aoki
That got dominated by Gilbert Melendez
I was gonna make the butt scooting comment.
Ride the Tiger!
by doonerthesooner on Sep 10, 2010 1:36 PM EDT reply actions
I wonder what Aoki thinks about butt-scooting for 25 minutes.
This. He’s got no legs to stand on when criticizing other fighters who fight to their strengths.
I think you're confusing with the chinese
And Moroccans, but people don’t know about this one.
I'm a lover not a fighter
I don’t recall him ever butt scooting for 25 minutes. I do remember seeing him butt scoot for a minute and then try rip Alvarez’s leg off.
www.mmalinker.com
by exsanguinator on Sep 10, 2010 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions
How does that saying go?
One dimensional fighters that live in glass houses should not throw stones.
by Zou want a piece? on Sep 10, 2010 1:38 PM EDT reply actions
The only difference
Aoki’s one dimension is gruesome and finishes fights.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 10, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
I wished he finished the fight against Melendez
That was a boring fight
by Zou want a piece? on Sep 10, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
So was the Mo/Mousasi fight
and 4/5 of the Shields/Hendo fight.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 10, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Aoki almost had Gils arm in round 1.
That was even more reason for Melendez to be overly cautious.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 10, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
And Gil almost knocked out Aoki if it weren't for the ref
Both fighters were going for a finish there. I thought that fight was fine.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
It was the least boring title fight that night.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 10, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i disagree about the ref
Mario had called a stand up and Aoki put his guard down and got hit.
by the-gentle-way on Sep 10, 2010 3:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Im a huge Aoki fan and hate wrestlers who use control as a way to win via decision, but I agree with you on the Gil v Aoki fight. Gil was very smart whilst still looking for the finish. You could see when he kinda sat at Aoki’s feet and kept low to avoid Aoki being able to latch on to him. Then he would explode with heavy shots and wasnt afraid to leap into Aokis guard from time to time with a huge bomb. The main defensive part of his game was using the fence to stop Aoki’s rubber guard. Cant really blame him for that.
And yes that fight went to a decision, but Aoki has shown multiple times he has a good chin and is really hard to finish.
Wrestling Sucks
It is killing the sport. New fans are not watching and old fans are leaving. No submission or KO should not warrant a win bonus in the UFC. The fighters should be encouraged by money to finish fights!
Sure there....
The sport is dying…. Right…….
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
Support independent artists
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by Worldisart on Sep 10, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Theres a point to be made here
But this wasn’t the way to do it
"Tons of blacks and their big black wrists"-Luke Thomas
by II SMASH II on Sep 10, 2010 1:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
KO of the night
Submission of the night
I want Kim Winslow or Tan Dan to ref Tito Ortiz' next loss.
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Sep 10, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
If you want to hear my opinion on Les Miles go to BJPenn.com.
by DayGeaux on Sep 10, 2010 1:41 PM EDT reply actions 9 recs
Aoki's tears
Make me smile.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
Support independent artists
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by Worldisart on Sep 10, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 8 recs
One thing
Win or lose, Shinya brings the tears.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 10, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
“I am a big fan of aggressive fighters like BJ Penn, Joe Stevenson, Kenny Florian, Melvin Guillard and Nate Diaz.. Everyone else is just wrestling and it’s not interesting at all.”
well look at whats happened to them i love KenFlo but his lack of wrestling has hurt him and the others have been inconsistant except for maybe Diaz if you just think about his current WW work
Its funny how people complain about no finishes but when your fighting a elite level guy a BJ GSP Silva or any of the other top guys do you really think they are going to get finished? i dont
Twitter @MaZZacreMMA
yes bj finishes contenders
Anderson has only went to a decision twice in the ufc And has fought three ex-champs that he finished.Shogun finishes most of his fights. They are killers sir… they come to snap, crackle and pop motherfuckers. Not to lay’n’pray,wall’n’stall or stand’n’bland.
by the-gentle-way on Sep 10, 2010 3:37 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Want to be a fighter? Train wrestling.
155 – Edgar vs. Maynard
170 – GSP vs. Kos
185 – Sonnen vs. Anderson
205 – Rashad vs. Shogun
HW – Brock vs. Cain
by Nick Thomas on Sep 10, 2010 1:41 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Or train Muay Thai A LOT
I want Kim Winslow or Tan Dan to ref Tito Ortiz' next loss.
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Sep 10, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
and BJJ
I want Kim Winslow or Tan Dan to ref Tito Ortiz' next loss.
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Sep 10, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Or fight in Japan
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
by Neil Manich on Sep 10, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Aoki’s just doing his best Chael Sonnen impression. He’s not a deluded prick like Dan Hardy (though he is a prick). Aoki’s a smart guy, and he understands Japanese MMA is circling the drain. Making people hate you is a good way to get attention.
Or I don’t know, maybe he’s just fucking crazy. There are some surprisingly honest quotes in that article too. He admits he doesn’t deserve to rematch Melendez yet, and that he was desperate against Kawajiri. Aoki’s weird as hell, but it’s kind of endearing.
"You hear people say, 'You're the greatest,' and all this stuff. It's BS. It's fake, it's all fake. You've just got to keep training as hard as you can. The only thing real is the fight, everything else is fake." - BJ Penn
Are you trying to say Hardy isn't a prick?
"Tons of blacks and their big black wrists"-Luke Thomas
by II SMASH II on Sep 10, 2010 1:51 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I meant that Hardy isn’t a prick, IMO
by Horselover Fat on Sep 10, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Was the fighter bashing really necessary? I think you could have made your point without insulting Hardy and Aoki.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
Support independent artists
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by Worldisart on Sep 10, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Because that's shitty logic
Letting other people dictate your behavior like that is a really poor way to present yourself. Take the higher road, be the bigger man. At least Aoki’s perceived “insults” didn’t involve calling fighters pricks.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
Support independent artists
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So...
you’re in the limelight as a fighter and have broken someone’s arm only to flip them off after they are writhing in pain. At what point can I consider this fighter a prick?
Whenever you'd like
You’re entitled to your opinion, my point is, that in the context of a discussion about Aoki’s actual point, I don’t see how calling him a prick is in any way relevant to the discussion. I’d like to think most people come to BE to get away from the fighter bashing and discuss the actual topic. You could have made your point without calling either Aoki or Hardy a prick but you decided to sink to that level, to lower the level of discourse and to devalue your own argument by resorting to juvenile name calling.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
I'm like you.
I hate fighter bashing. It pisses me off to no end to see a Chuck Liddell article riddled with fighter bashing jokes and no one seems to have a care in the world to stopping it. But as for the commenter calling Aoki a prick, I just don’t see it as being that bad. The guy butt scoots for 25 minutes and then just shits on American wresting.
Yeah and he made his argument without resorting to juvenile name calling. There’s a very distinct difference.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
Just so its clear...
I never made the comment. I’m defending crazybones. I’m Crazynutts. Lol I feel like an idiot typing that.
Just so I'm clear
I don’t care if you’re the one saying it or if you’re the one defending it, my point is that if you’re going to start calling fighters names, you’re lowering the level of discourse for everyone.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
So...
in debating you don’t care whether you’re comments about a certain commenter are directed at someone else? I would say that adds very little to the sake of discussion when someone doesn’t even take the time to direct their retorts to the person responsible for making the disparaging remark that clearly upset you.
I defended the other guy from you jumping off the deep end about the prick remark. If Aoki wants to be the Japanese equivalent to Tito Ortiz, then you better put your cup on.
My girls Japanese so she tranlates for me.
Aoki says a lot of honest and bizarre thing. But usually he’s really rude and arrogant(for a Japanese man), also he’s kinda crazy and really emotional.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 10, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Jesus every time I talk about a fighter I like, people think I’m trying to put him down. Look, Aoki is a prick. He broke a guy’s arm and gave him the finger while he was lying on the ground in agony. But he’s also refreshingly honest (I think) and very emotional about what he does. Which I also mentioned.
And as for Hardy… well, after getting his ass kicked for 25 minutes and his arm nearly torn off (twice!) he said “GSP didn’t really dominate me.” If that’s not deluded, what the hell is?
"You hear people say, 'You're the greatest,' and all this stuff. It's BS. It's fake, it's all fake. You've just got to keep training as hard as you can. The only thing real is the fight, everything else is fake." - BJ Penn
IMO, Ben Fowles has posted the best article on this subject ...
This was my favorite part
As Sports Psychology professor Dr. Ted Butryn said in this article back in July, success in sports hinges greatly on locus of control. If you think other people and outside forces are responsible for whether you win or lose, it’s harder to improve. If you think everything rests on your own ability and performance, even if you’re wrong, you’re more likely to get better.
by Steve4192 on Sep 10, 2010 1:55 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
OK, I'll bite and say he's right.
Personally I think wrestling is the most important martial art to know. I also think that if you’re having trouble with American collegiate and freestyle wrestlers, you better work on you wrestling skills. That being said, I also think the sport, or at least the american version of the sport, rewards top control and takedowns way too much. Easiest fix, change how fights are judge, focusing on damage and attempts to finish.
I know the UFC doesn’t control the judges and refereeing (but I’m sure they have a massive influence on the ACs -especially the NSAC were Zuffa’s ex-lawyer is on the commission) but they could lead the push to tinker with the rules. I mean, they already offer substantial sub, KO, and fight of the night bonuses in a blatant attempt to entice fighters into more exciting fights, so it’s not like anyone cares about the integrity of the sport or anything.
by John Nash on Sep 10, 2010 1:58 PM EDT reply actions 8 recs
Its just a difference of philosophy. So many fighters come from an ameture wrestling background, which is philosphically entirely different than almost any other martial art base. It is entirely a sport, and the goal of wrestling is in no way to hurt your opponent. Aoki is right. I’m just skeptical how much a rule change would change anything.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
by Neil Manich on Sep 10, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
this is the fundamental core of the problem
Wrestling is more a sport and less a fight than any of the other major MMA disciplines. There are handful of wrestlers out there with nasty streaks and good killer instinct (Matt Hughes, Bones Jones) but it’s more the exception than the rule. And because it is a sport that doesn’t fundamentally involve hurting people, it does not necessarily draw the type of athletes that have a fundamental, internal need to hurt people — a need I think is critical to a good (or at least entertaining) combat athlete. Jon Fitch might just be too nice. He’s not thinking about inflicting damage, he’s thinking about how to win a game.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
BJJ is a sport
and it doesn’t fundamentally involve hurting people
A bit more than wrestling
Like quite a bit more.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Not really
Its a combat system first and a sport second. A lot of guys get seriously injured playing Jiu Jitsu. Submission holds are designed to incapacitate the opponent.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 10, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
A lot of guys get seriously injured
doing any contact sport. Rarely in BJJ are you injured as a direct result of something your opponent did, and if you are it’s usually because you or they did something stupid (like not tapping or Palhares-ing the hold)
Nobody’s getting knocked out in BJJ class. Or even hit in the face. Although I did once shred the shit out of the inside of my lip when a forearm went across my mouth when I had no mouthpiece.
people may not be injuring eachother purposefully in sport jiu-jitsu, but submissions are still a real-world way to win a fight, and when applied to MMA, provide exciting conclusions to matches.
Wrestle’s have grown up “winning” by pinning someones shoulders to the mat. and while in real life, this is a very advantageous position, wrestlers by the time they get to the ufc have spent over 10 years releasing people as soon as they pin their shoulders down. the longterm-trained behaviors of a wrestler do not lend themselves to being finishers without some serious re-training
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Sep 10, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
That's completely untrue
People get hurt all the time if they compete or train intensely. Some guys lock out arm bars before you have chance to tap. When adrenaline gets going and you don’t feel pain the way you should and tap late.
People don’t get KO’d, but they sure as fuck go to sleep.
I’ll reiterate, Jiu Jitsu is a combat system designed to disable the opponent. Wrestling is not.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 10, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
at my school we train to fight with bjj.
Its tap, snap or nap. Bjj is the most effective martial art on the planet. If you tap then no snap or nap. If you don’t tap then you get snapped…… or napped…… lol.
by the-gentle-way on Sep 10, 2010 3:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
we are obviously good to our training partners
I mean I don’t view bjj as a game.
by the-gentle-way on Sep 10, 2010 3:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That's the point though
Unless your gym is full of tough guys, nobody is purposely getting hurt. In fact, in 99% of gyms, trying to hurt the guy you’re training with will get you booted the fuck out.
Even in BJJ competition, it’s not like you’re watching guys get injured all day long.
My point isn’t that BJJ isn’t effective or that it isn’t a way to end a fight, but compared to a striking art for example, it’s not at all about hurting your opponent or killer instinct, it’s about beating them at the chess match that you’re in.
Hell, tons of fights in BJJ tournaments are won on things like guard passes and sweeps.
in tournaments it happens
I have seen a few guys get choked to sleep. Or an arm put in a sling.
If you don’t tap your arm will get broke.
That’s where I think our opinions differ.
by the-gentle-way on Sep 10, 2010 5:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I've seen guys get broken legs in football
But it’s not the intent of the sport, and when it’s played as per the plan nobody gets injured at all.
There’s a reason they schedule guys for a whole bunch of BJJ matches in a day and it’s not a problem
"Hell, tons of fights in BJJ tournaments are won on things like guard passes and sweeps."
Helio believed in no rules and no time limit. The old gracie academy tournaments were no time limit for this reason. Also why the first ufc’s and vale tudo fights were no time limit, bjj is designed to fight to the finish.
by the-gentle-way on Sep 10, 2010 5:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
and even in pure sport form, it involves winning by doing more than pinning someones shoulders to the ground. even though the sportsmanship involves giving guys a little leeway before breaking their shit, you’re still finishing a match in a way that is truly conclusive
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Sep 10, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
BJJ fundamentally involves hurting people even more than thai boxing does
The whole point of BJJ is to hurt someone until they quit or can’t continue, right? Or am I missing something?
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
The sport is evolving
Chuck Liddell sprawl-and-brawl type fighters are probably never going to be dominant in the modern UFC because these wrestlers are really powerful.
Judging has to be fixed so Octagon Control is eliminated and takedowns don’t have so much weight on the scoring.
4 years, 4 coaches, 7 league road wins, 0 playoff games, 1 GM. Fire Mo Johnston.
by SSreporters on Sep 10, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Chuck was a wrestler … that is what made him so great at sprawl & brawl.
I’m sure that if another guy like him comes along (D1 wrestling background + pro kickboxing experience), he will be plenty successful.
Yes he was
But even Chuck in his prime would have problems stopping the takedowns of guys like Bones.
4 years, 4 coaches, 7 league road wins, 0 playoff games, 1 GM. Fire Mo Johnston.
guys like Bones aren’t the problem here.
the problem with a lot of the best wrestlers, is that they aren’t actually very athletically coordinated, as in, they fucking suck at other sports and aren’t very creative in the ways they use their bodies. the Gray Maynards, Jon Fitchs, Nik Lentzs of the world. tough, no nonsense guys, but not free-flowing athletes
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Sep 10, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
In what planet?.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
by Nightwhistler on Sep 10, 2010 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions
People just need to learn to stop it
A great example someone mentioned was Fitch vs GSP.
GSP stopped the takedown, and proceeded to punch the shit out of Fitch’s face for 5 rounds. If Thiago Alves was a more complete fighter, he could have done the same thing, but he didn’t. That’s why GSP is the champion, and guys like Hardy are bitching to local newspapers in England.
Make the other fighter play your game, or he’ll make you play his. If you can’t make him play your game…you need to practice more.
I have no problem with wrestling
I have a HUGE problem with the Nik Lentz types who shoot for a takedown and then just stay there. If your opponent is inferior then finish him.
4 years, 4 coaches, 7 league road wins, 0 playoff games, 1 GM. Fire Mo Johnston.
Exactly. I don’t know if they need to change how fights are judged, as opposed to educating judges on a much more practical value of positions. Top control does not always mean fight control, especially when the top is simply wrestling and NOT fighting. The difference between the value of striking vs sub grappling vs wrestling is that you cannot finish a fight with wrestling. Not saying wrestling’s value in MMA is any less than the others, but it is not fighting. Though it is a necessary part of it.
by bubbafat on Sep 10, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly.
Finally someone gets it.
The problem is not wrestling itself, it’s the way the fight are scored.
(US) MMA scoring system sucks.
There is no magic solution to erase "boring" fights...
I just think it would be a step in the right direction as far as LnP is concerned.
10% of fighter purse.
First of all, I wanna thank God for giving everybody so much, and me, so little. I hate you, I hate you, and I don't even know you and I hate your guts. I hope all the bad things in life happen to you, and nobody else, but you.
I hear this "judging" excuse so much
How often have you actually seen a fight where the boring wrestler not doing damage wasn’t the better fighter in the fight? You can diminish the role of top control as much as you want, but if the guy on the bottom doesn’t do anything then the wrestler still deserves to win.
In Rashad’s “boring” fights, you could maybe give Rampage round 3 because Rashad rammed his head/neck into Rampage’s knee, but Rampage did nothing from his back or the fence other than tie up Rashad to prevent GnP. Thiago Silva did dick all in rounds 1 and 2 aside from being a rag doll. Vera was useless in rounds 1 and 3 of his fight. Mousasi probably deserved one round from his back against Lawal, but he still deserved to lose the fight.
Returning to the topic at hand, what did Aoki do to deserve any rounds? Absolutely nothing. Melendez put on some great fights with Thomson, so there’s nothing wrong with his style. Aoki is just too one-dimensional. If your entire game relies on wrapping yourself around a limb, and you can’t grab one, then you are at fault for the boring fight.
I’d say 90% of the time the guy on the bottom is responsible for the lack of action. They hug their opponent and tie up their arms, hoping for a standup before their grip gives out. If you stand up fights quicker or negate takedown points, then that will only encourage them to do that more and it will completely kill the ground game.
by Mint on Sep 10, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
This
People fail to realize that when the opportunities are there, 99.9% of fighters are taking them. When the guy on the bottom is turtling up and just trying to avoid getting hurt, or even worse, stalling for the fucking referee standup, they’re the reason that fight is boring.
Also Mint it’s weird agreeing with you twice in as many days, we need to have a Strikeforce thread so we can argue again
I don’t even remember what we disagreed about. The main reason I root for Strikeforce is that I hate having the vast majority of my PPV dollars going towards lining the pockets of the Fertittas. They should go to the ones responsible for the entertainment I’m getting: the fighters. If GSP-Silva took place under the Shark Fights banner then I would enjoy it just as much.
I like SF
I just hate that their free love policies end up in more clusterfucks than fights
I don’t think their policies are to blame. It’s the fact that they are so much smaller than the UFC and can’t pay fighters enough to make them beg Strikeforce for fights.
If they had UFC type contracts, Overeem definitely wouldn’t sign with them. Fedor and Noons probably wouldn’t either. God knows how many other fighters would just go to the UFC, Japan, etc. They wouldn’t have Aoki-Melendez, or Diaz-Zaromskis.
There are some issues, but that’s true of capitalism, too. There’s no question in my mind that it’s been beneficial for Strikeforce.
Well if they lay their way to victory, they are certainly “better” under the rules and criteria as they are currently configured. The question is whether those rules and criteria a) establish a good competitive balance and b) facilitate a style of fighting that is suitable for an entertainment product.
A guy like Fitch has the remarkable capacity to ugly up every fight he’s in, and to make very talented fighters look very boring. I don’t think anyone would dispute his ability, but when he leaves a trail of beaten fighters without a blemish on anything except their records, you have to wonder if this “fight” sport we all love so much is geared enough toward fighting.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
So stop him
Submit him from the bottom, or don’t let him take you down. Did you see GSP on his back against Fitch? No. Did you see Fitch’s face after the fight? The guy was wrecked.
Make the wrestler play your game, or he’ll make you play his. Why do we need to change the rules to adjust for guys who don’t want to adjust their games? Should we be eliminating submissions or ground fighting because some fighters think that stuff is for pussies?
There is a fundamental disconnect here between what may or may not be good for some fighters and what may or may not be good for fans.
If a guy like Jon Fitch is good for 4 boring fights a year (or 3 in those years that GSP beats the hell out of him) then he is a drag on the sport, regardless of how good he is. If more and more guys learn to emulate his style of effective point-fighting, then the sport will suffer more.
As these types of fighters grow more successful, the sport — from a spectator standpoint — will grow less appealing, resulting in fewer people watching it, which is bad for everyone.
MMA is not a fight. It is a sport. Sports have rules. One of the functions of rules — particularly in the context of a sport that people pay money to see — is to encourage action and engagement. I think what a lot of MMA fans are saying is that they would welcome a rule-set that punished positional point fighting and rewarded an effort to finish.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
fair enough
My point is that as long as we have accepted that MMA is a sport bound by rules, it is not unreasonable to continue to develop those rules in a way that supports a good entertainment product in the cage.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
I love grappling
The Pellegrino-Sotiropolous fight was one of my favorites in recent memory and it took place almost entirely on the ground. Now those guys were trying to pull each other’s arms off, so it was actually entertaining, but if you prefer watching Jon Fitch do his human blanket impression, I guess it takes all kinds.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
The point is you can't regulate it
Some fights are going to be boring. Look at that horrible Kimbo-Alexander fight. It wasn’t boring because of grappling, it was boring because it was boring. The notion of changing the rules to make it somehow more exciting sounds like a great way to fuck up a good sport
The NFL is the most popular sport in America
And they change the rules literally every year. A major percentage of those rule changes are designed to improve the fan experience of the sport. I just think it’s ridiculous to say that you can’t use rules to encourage the sort of fights you want to see.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
I'm amazed
at how insistent you are that the rules need to be changed to compensate for lack of fighter skillsets.
Should we outlaw submissions because Chael Sonnen doesn’t train submission defense enough and keeps getting caught in them?
You must hate the Fight, Sub, and KO bonuses then? Because nothing distorts a fighters pay more than a payoff to give up on a sound game plan.
incentives aren't rules
Telling a guy he gets a bonus for winning, or having the best fight/win of the night, is encouraging them to do well no matter what they excel in.
Changing the rules to outlaw certain types of fighting because your favorite fighter can’t defend them is just stupid
Like the NFL banning contact with receivers after the line of scrimmage?
Or the NBA adding a shot clock?
The current rules for rewarding takedowns and positional dominance come directly from collegiate, folk, freestyle wrestling and were made the objective of their sport when they split from catchwrestling and abolished submissions. Judging based on those criteria no longer make much sense now that submissions are allowed.
by John Nash on Sep 10, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
What your post says is
“I like BJJ better than wrestling, so give wrestlers nothing and only award points for BJJ”
Some people don’t like BJJ at all, so let’s stop awarding points for sweeps, back control, or submission attempts. I mean heck, why doesn’t he just knock the guy out?
But takedowns and positional control don’t indicate who wins a fight. Taking down and holding down an opponent down would be helpful if you had aid on the way, but if your opponent had allies you’d be screwed on top. Positional control doesn’t mean much in a real world simulation. The reason wrestling came up with that scoring system is because they got rid of the submissions from catchwrestling because it was considered too dangerous. The rewards for control in wrestling are rewarded because they simulate the control needed to set up a move in catchwrestling. But now we have submissions back and we can reward the actual submission attempt instead of the the setup for a setup for a sub.
by John Nash on Sep 10, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Oh, yeah
and I’m 100% catchwrestling over BJJ.
catch wrestling wasn't for submission.
They still won by pin. Or am I wrong????
by the-gentle-way on Sep 10, 2010 5:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Both
By defending against the pin you often left yourself open to a sub, and by worrying about the sub your oponent would often take advantage to move for a pin.
It was some interesting shit.
by John Nash on Sep 10, 2010 11:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Still is - look at Barnett
He won a no-gi title with no formal BJJ training…and was award a BB based on demonstrated skill and competitive merit…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 11, 2010 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions
This is what I'd sound like
If I were informed. Rec’d.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
So, example
A fighter has another fighter’s back for most of a round, but never lands a choke
See Couture-Sylvia as an example
Since he wasn’t doing damage and positional control doesn’t count for who wins the fight, who wins that round?
In your scenario, where submissions attempt are the only thing that counts…so should I just throw up 5 lazy kimura attempts that the guy easily gets out of rather than improve my position to possibly land a hold that works? I mean hey, they’re submission attempts. I can just work for a kimura from the guard rather than try to get mount, because positional control shouldn’t count and submission attempts should.
Doesn’t sound like a fun fight to me.
I think we’re talking past each other, so let me reiterate my point (or illustrate it as it would be). I’m not arguing against wrestling, since I believe wrestling has proven itself to be the most useful martial art in mma and the real world. What I’m arguing against is using the folk and freestyle scoring system in martial arts. Both of those grew out of a safer, less combative version of catchwrestling and don’t really award for actual combat success.
- both you and mint argue that to do so would mean we would be awarding weak striking or a poor submission attempt over wrestling skills. But judges are already supposed to be judging the strength of a strike, and I believe an informed judge could easily distinguish between a sloppy attempt and serious submission attempt.
- positional dominance only means something if you do something with it. Couture did attack Sylvia. Maybe not as much as some wanted, but he held Sylvia down, hit him a few times, and didn’t let Sylvia up to hit him back. My argument is not directed at Couture or Jon Fitch, who while boring, used their wrestling to negate an opponent and still are able to somewhat attack. I’m directing my complaints at old (not recent) Clay Guida (takedown, advance position, advance, advance, for godssake your not even hurting him), Gray Maynard vs Diaz were he seemed to spend more time defending himself then attacking, and any fight by Antonio Mckee were he holds down his opponent to make sure a fight doesn’t break out.
by John Nash on Sep 10, 2010 11:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Jabs and weak punches don’t win a fight and don’t mean much in the real world. The jab is used to set up a power punch, and we can reward the actual KO/TKO instead of the jabs that set it up.
tell that to Forrest Griffin
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
The Klitschkos might argue with you on that.
by John Nash on Sep 10, 2010 11:58 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You two clowns are missing the point
If you think a takedown shouldn’t count for points because it doesn’t finish the fight by itself, then the same logic can be applied to saying that any light punch which doesn’t finish the fight shouldn’t count for points. It’s just stupid.
Takedowns put you in a better position to win. If you look at all fights that end on the ground, the vast majority of the time it’s the guy on top that won. In the absence of any other significant damage, they should count towards scoring.
you've got a nice little circular argument going
We’re all here complaining about the scoring system, which is set up so that the guy on top almost always wins, regardless of whether he’s doing anything worthwhile with his position, and you use the fact that the guy on top almost always wins as a proof point for why its great to be on top.
As for jabs and takedowns, they actually share something in common, in that some jabs (like the ones JDS throws) are stiff and brutal and can definitely knock you unconscious. And some takedowns (vintage Matt Hughes) can do the same thing.
I don’t have a problem with weighing a power takedown the same as a power jab, what I have a problem with is giving a guy credit for being able to hang out on top for 3 minutes stalling.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
Just to clarify
I’m not actually insistent on an immediate change in the rules, so much as I am opposed to the idea that you can never change the rules to tweak/improve the competitive balance and entertainment value of the sport.
Outside of baseball — which sucks — every major American sport has made major rule changes throughout their existences to facilitate better on-field or on-court products. Dunks, forward passes, shot clocks, and a bunch of other things we take for granted are all the results of rule changes intended to inspire more exciting play.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
Those guys will never be on top, though
Fitch will never beat GSP without learning standup. Look at Lesnar-Carwin (first round). Wrestling just cancelled out, and it remained standing. Well, only for 10 seconds because Brock has no striking defense, but you get the point.
IMHO, what you will see in the future is all MMA fighters learning wresting, but the fight will stay standing until someone gets dropped. People will go for takedowns if they think that their opponents’ wrestling isn’t up to snuff, but otherwise they will either get stuffed or kneed/clocked without completing the takedown.
I don't share your faith that things will all work out
If GSP retires, or moves up in weight, or decides to try to be an Olympic wrestler, or whatever, Fitch not only has a good shot at becoming champion, he would seem to have a good shot at holding the belt for a good long while [shudders]. I would bet even money that Gray Maynard — another top-control guy who can’t finish anyone — is going to be the next lightweight champion of the world. Rashad has already held the LHW belt and may very well hold it again before long, especially since he seems to have given up on his brief flirtation with actually hitting guys.
The HW division may be safe from the Ultimate Unanimous Decision treatment, but only because the guys in it are so freaking enormous that somebody almost has to drop before 25 minutes are up.
We may get to a point, and soon, where the people who make decisions in the sport have to decide if they’re ok with an ever-diminishing rate of finishes and an increasingly homogenized fighting style that rewards takedowns and control over damage and finishing.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
GSP never wrestled
Not in high school, not in college. He comes from a karate background for fuck’s sake.
If he can become good enough at it to take down NCAA champions, then anyone in MMA could. They just aren’t focusing their skills properly. If wrestlers are kicking your ass, pull a KenFlo and hire a wrestling coach. Or pull a Tank Abbott and bitch about it to the media.
GSP is the best athlete in MMA
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
by Neil Manich on Sep 10, 2010 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Because he trains what he's bad at
instead of whining that people shouldn’t be doing it
Yeah, but that’s not why he can escape so easily from the bottom and is so hard to take down. It’s his technique that does that.
His athleticism is responsible for his incredibly fast shot, true, but stopping guys like Fitch and Maynard is doable.
His athleticism allows him to learn new technique faster. GSP is an exceptional case. The argument that if “GSP can do it” anybody can" is retarded.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
But the argument
“wahh, i’m not good at wrestling, so we should change the rules to help me compete” is a good one?
“His athleticism allows him to learn new technique faster.”
WTF? No it didn’t. That’s absurd. He learns techniques quickly because he’s smart and dedicated. His athleticism helps him take people down, but it doesn’t have much to do with him being near impossible to hold down or take down.
Alves is a guy that is really hard to hold down as well. Both GSP and Fitch had problems with that. Unfortunately, he hasn’t yet mastered the takedown defense, particularly when someone ducks his punches or grabs a kick.
Neing a natural athlete definitely means you can learn faster.
Itsa fact that some people will learn things faster than others. Whether its purely neuromuscular or not, type II muscle fiber responds much more rapidly to training than type I. Not only that, someone with more strength or better balance will be able to pick up many techniques with ease compared to a person who has to struggle to lift a certain weight or maintain balance during a motion. Even dancing proves this to be true. A naturally talented dancer will learn new moves and steps much easier than an average person.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 11, 2010 4:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I still say hlebtasic is full of crap when he says GSP is an exceptional case when it comes to learning. Even your dancing example doesn’t have much to do with type II muscle fibre.
If you can’t learn the different disciplines in MMA, you’re in the wrong damn business.
I know that.
I was using two different reasons a natural athlete can learn things easier. One being cellular, the other being physical strength and balance.
But I agree. GSP isn’t the best natural athlete. He’s worked and studied extremely hard.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 11, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Jon Bones Jones might have something to say about that...
Semper Fi'
WatchKalibRun.com
Pain don't hurt...
I'm not a professional MMA fighter
so stopping take downs is not really my problem. I am a paying MMA fan, so watching fights that look increasingly like high-school wrestling matches is really my problem.
I know you say that boring fights are inevitable, but the numbers would seem to suggest that we are seeing more boring fights, and that boring fighters are becoming increasingly successful. If those two trends continue, the sport will suffer, and it will be the sport — not the fighters — that will have to evolve or die.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
What numbers?
UFC is selling more fights than ever, we’re coming off of one of the best events in recent memory (116) and the sport is continuing it’s momentum of growing and gaining new fans.
There’s a hell of a lot of people who think BJJ as a whole is boring too, should we turn the sport into kickboxing to appease those people? Kickboxing has been around for a while, and it doesn’t seem to be catching on here.
The numbers that say decisions are up and finishes are down
If I was a little less lazy I’d look up the excellent BE article on the subject, but I’m not, so I won’t.
And PPV buys are not up across the board. PPV buys are solid across the board, but are extremely variable based on the fighters involved on the main card.
I am not predicting gangbuster sells for Maynard-Edgar II: The Borening
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
I wrote a fanpost about this
Because so many people are so uninformed about the business side of MMA
But the baseline PPV buys have stayed similar, the average buyrates have stayed constant, this despite UFC adding more and more events every year.
The total PPV buys for UFC events has increased 25% year over year for the last 3 years and is more than on track to do so this year as well.
As far as finishes, this is the article you mean:
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/7/24/1585816/the-decline-of-submissions-in-mma
For every “boring LnP wrestler” (which really, makes up like 5 guys on the UFC roster) you’re getting decisions from guys like Clay Guida, Diego Sanchez, George Sotiropoulos and tons of other guys who are out there putting on great fights that happen to be against tough guys who are hard to finish.
I get saying Maynard or Fitch are boring. Presenting these two guys like it’s some sort of impending doom for the sport that needs to be outlawed is ridiculous.
We may actually be getting closer to agreement
For everything I’ve said here, I’m not actually convinced that the sky is falling. I’ve enjoyed every UFC PPV I’ve bought this year (though I mercifully dodged the last one). I’m not sure that there is evidence to suggest that we need drastic rule changes right now. And I would never suggest “outlawing” a fundamental element of the sport.
Where you and I would appear to differ is in the the question of whether it can ever be right to tweak the rules to support a better entertainment product.
I think other sports have proven that those sorts of changes can work, and to good effect, without outlawing anything.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
You're missing the point
GSP is not the only complete fighter you’ll ever see. In the future, we will see more standup guys with solid wrestling. Thiago Alves is almost there with takedown defense. Aldo is there right now, and Faber was there before him.
GSP has shown us that there is a devastating answer to guys like Fitch. Even if an all-rounder was a level or two below GSP, it would still solve Fitch.
Sure, WW is missing prospects like that right now, but they’ll come. As for Rashad, did you forget how he rocked Rampage? He would have done a lot more GnP if Rampage wasn’t so intent on neutralizing Rashad until the ref intervened.
As I said earlier, you are more optimistic than me
GSP is a once-in-a-generation athletic talent. Lots of MMA fighters have trained wrestling later in life, but he’s the only one who’s been able to master it to a degree that he can out-wrestle guys who have grown up with it.
Fitch has proved that he can smother and control literally every other fighter in the division, which includes some of the most amazing fighters in the world. I just don’t see how you can have absolute faith that future GSPs will be cropping up everywhere to counteract all the future Fitches, which are much easier to come by.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
Guys who were unbeatable like you're saying Fitch is
Rich Franklin
Matt Hughes
Chuck Liddell
BJ Penn
Andrei Arlovski
Tim Sylvia
I really don't think I'm being unreasonably optimistic
We’ve already had two guys that can prevent LnP at featherweight: Faber and Aldo.
At LW everyone is jumping to conclusions that Maynard will lay on Edgar and win.
At MW there is no real LnPer, but if there was someone like Sonnen but less active, there’s no reason to think he wouldn’t get tooled by Maia the way Sonnen did.
At LHW, Machida is a striker that seems very difficult to take down, and we’ll see how Shogun does against Evans.
At HW, if someone like Brock had less power and relied on LnP instead of GnP, he would still get destroyed by Carwin (if Carwin paced himself).
LnP comes from incomplete fighters. They are a dying breed in a sport with a growing pool of athletes. If we get hundreds of collegiate wrestlers trying their hand at MMA, which ones do you think will make it to the UFC? The ones who can wrestle and strike, or the ones that can only wrestle?
Actually GSP was on his back once against Fitch (from a failed RNC, just like against Alves). My jaw dropped at the way he escaped from it. Amazing stuff.
GSP’s defense is the example that every LnP whiner should look at. The best wrestlers can rarely take him down and nobody can keep him down. Furthermore it’s 90% technique as opposed to athleticism, and all of it was learned without a highschool or college wrestling background.
Sometimes I wonder what would happen if GSP faced a mirror image of himself, and I think it would stay standing. That tells me that the endgame of MMA as it evolves will be a mainly standup sport. People just need to learn.
Oh, and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with butt-scooting. It’s actually quite absurd that Melendez was allowed to run away and not engage and have Aoki stood up – there’s nothing in the unified rules about it and it’s an inherently aggressive action.
by Sink on Sep 10, 2010 2:02 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I don’t think changing the rules to encourage more exciting fights hurts the integrity of the sport. If people wanted to watch wrestling, they would. It used to be the biggest combat sport in the world, until people got sick of 4 hour wrestling matches. Changing the rules to encourage finishes during the allotted time kinda makes sense really. The judges are (or should be) the failsafe to prevent draws, not the primary victory goal.
"an excellent example of why most MMA "journalism" is a joke. Pseudonyms like "toxic" and shitty writing like that dopey article"--- Joe Rogan.
I thought the same thing
How is chasing your opponent by scooting on your ass stalling a fight?
It seems to me, if your opponents is scooting on his ass you should be willing to engage him. After all, he’s chasing you.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 10, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Butt scooting is an exploitation of the rules
It only works because you’re not allowed to kick to the head of a grounded opponent.
Occasionally a wrestler will do the same to safely grab a low single without fear of knees, but most fighters know how to avoid that or escape, so it’s a non-issue. Some people like to pretend that knees will prevent LnP this way, but the reality is that few takedowns are executed in a way that would be stopped by PRIDE rules.
Butt scooting isn't stalling
It’s a just a really lazy tactic for getting a fight to the ground and shouldn’t be encouraged. Rather than scooting around on your ass, a fighter should learn how to shoot a takedown, learn how to throw or trip a fighter, learn how to properly pull guard or learn some offense on the feet.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
Support independent artists
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Ask Alvarez how well Aoki can pull gaurd.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 10, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
The Thales Leites tactic?
4 years, 4 coaches, 7 league road wins, 0 playoff games, 1 GM. Fire Mo Johnston.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 10, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
I'm an Aoki fan.
fuck the haters.
Semper Fi'
WatchKalibRun.com
Pain don't hurt...
by RolloTomasi on Sep 10, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He's my favorite psychotic Japanese dude
beside Gomi.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 10, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I think a lot of us are
We just don’t like the whining.
There are countless examples of fireworks when two high level fighters with good wrestling (or at least takedown defense) are in the ring together. GSP-Fitch. Lesnar-Carwin. GSP-Hughes. Evans-Machida. Faber-Brown. I could go on…
I'm an Aoki fan too.
My real name is Mach Sakurai’s knee.
Not quite that extreme but I think it’s the same principle.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
Support independent artists
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Butt-scooting is lazy?
What bothers me about this argument is you are essentially doing what pro-wrestling advocates accuse wrestling fans of doing. You are telling somebody how they should fight, despite how effective it may be. Aoki butt scooting at his opponent has proven to be a good way to dictate the pace of the fight, but you want him to not do it because it’s “lazy.” Just seems like a double standard.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
I think there is a marked difference between what a “wall and stall” fighter is doing and what a fighter who drops to his ass and crab walks around the ring chasing down his opponent is doing. In the one case where a fighter is holding someone up against the cage, he is actively physically forcing his opponent into a position that he can’t escape. In the case of butt scooting he is trying to bait his opponent into a different realm of the fight. I appreciate that what Aoki does is not quite on the level of what Leites did in his fight with Anderson Silva but it’s still the same principle, take the fight to the ground without forcing the fight there. The guy utilizing “wall and stall” or “lay and pray” is at least forcing the fight into that realm.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
Support independent artists
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Here's my thing
The Wall and Stall tactitician is trying everything he can to stop a fight from occuring. The butt scooter is trying to bait the other fighter into a fight. One leads to action, the other openly impedes it.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
The buttscooter could just as easily engage the other fighter in a fight by throwing a punch. Both fighters are trying to maximize their chance to win regardless of the entertainment value. I just feel like even if the buttscooters intentions are for a fight, the wall and staller is taking the right first step. If you get what I mean.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
Support independent artists
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No I see your point
But even though the stalling wrestler is making the right first move, the butt scooter eventually leads to the preferred outcome.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
but the butt-scooter is trying to get his opponent into a position to finish
and the wall-n-staller is posturing for the judges. BJJ guys know they don’t get points for lying on their back.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
Rarely is this the case
They’re typically trying to protect their face from the other guy’s fists
See:
Lietes-Silva
Belfort-Sakuraba
you're conflating butt scooting and crab walking
butt scooting is dropping to your ass and hoping the guy follows you down. It’s lame and sucks.
Crab walking is dropping to your ass and chasing the other guy down. Aoki throws kicks and gets take downs from the crab walk. It shouldn’t have been stopped by Yamasaki. That was bad refereeing.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Sep 10, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I agree on the bad reffing
And yes I can see what you mean by the difference.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
Support independent artists
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there's a difference
between butt scooting and crab walking. butt scooting is going backwards and crab walking is an attack.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Sep 10, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Fair enough
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Thanks for clearing that up for me Nate!
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
respond to the substance of my comment above
Aoki has scored many a take down from crab walking.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
The problem is that with the way the rules are set up now, there’s little drawback to purposely sitting on your ass. You can crab walk after a guy without worrying about taking a knee or shin to the face.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
you can still be punched in the face
unless Yamasaki is reffing.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Sep 10, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There’s a big difference in punching vs. kicking/kneeing someone in the face when one person is on the floor.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
That's true
But you can still generate some real power punching a grounded opponent in the face, which is plenty drawback to crab walking. If Yamasaki didn’t stand them up, Aoki may have been finished.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
It’s not so much about the power (though it’s part of it, certainly), but the logistics of punching a downed opponent in the face who has his hips in between you and his head mean you’ll probably have to engage with the grappling on the ground. Not necessarily true with the ol’ roundhouse kick.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
I think we can all agree
MMA would be better with a few more roundhouse kicks.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Awesome!! I thought I was alone in thinking this way!! Where is the rule that says the fight must take place on the feet unless a fighter scores a takedown?? Why is it that if a fighter avoids the contest when both are standing (ie. starnes v quarry) he is ridiculed but when Gil or Alvarez avoid the contest against Aoki but-scooting people act as though its a stupid tactic.
I’d love to see Aoki just refuse to fight on his feet in a fight. Repeated sit on his ass and chase down his opponent.
Having said that, I think there has to be a limit to the butt-scoot. I dont think opponents should be able to simply ignore it and have the fight stood up, but I do think they should be forced to engage in some capacity before the fight is stood up. Kick his legs? Attempt to get to side control? etc
I wonder what Aoki thinks about butt-scooting for 25 minutes.
probably the same thing she does. It’s fun!
by MrTechnique420 on Sep 10, 2010 2:20 PM EDT reply actions 8 recs
this is by far the strangest gif i’ve seen
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Sep 10, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
ewwwww
she looks like she’s made of rubber.
Tosh.O made a funny joke about this vid. But I was a little too F’ed up to remember it.
Semper Fi'
WatchKalibRun.com
Pain don't hurt...
Wasn’t Aoki the guy that said fighting with risk “makes the quality of MMA lower”?
"Girls are mean." Lisa Ward
He also broke and man’s arm in a terrible way, the flipped out afterward. Same dude who cries after both wins and loses. He seems a little unstable.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 10, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I can’t fault him for the arm break. It’s not like he didn’t give Hirota ample time to tap. He cranked that thing about 15 different ways trying to get Hirota to tap to the pain, and when it became clear he wouldn’t, Shinya finally took the last option available to him.
If you want to see a guy being a dick about snapping limbs, watch some of Ken Shamrock’s old fights (particularly the one against Leon Dijk). He would slap on a hold and IMMEDIATELY crank it with all his might rather than giving his opponent an opportunity to tap out.
I guess you can’t really fault him for the arm break but what you can fault him for is getting in the guy’s face afterward screaming fuck you and putting his finger in his face and then mocking his broken arm.
"Girls are mean." Lisa Ward
Me too.
Just cause he’s so quite and nerdy on the surface; just plain vicious and sadistic in the ring.
Before the fight, Hirota said Aoki couldn’t submit him, and that if Aoki got him in a hold he wouldn’t tap. No matter what. He brought in on himself.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 10, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
The bird distribution that followed, I’m not so sure about that. I understand Aoki was pissed for being ‘forced’ into breaking the arm but damn.
He's broken a lot of arms
and has said he loves doing it.
He specifically said he wanted to destroy Kawajri’s leg. Not had to, wanted to. He broke one guys arm with a Judo throw, then proceeded to follow through and toss the man by his broken arm. He then ran around the ring mocking the guys broken arm.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 10, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
that was a scary break.
Watching that fight made me reconsider fighting myself, for a second anyway…
Semper Fi'
WatchKalibRun.com
Pain don't hurt...
You're more likely to be the one doing the breaking,
United States Marine.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 11, 2010 4:34 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't care how tough someone is,
that was gross.
oh SNAP
Semper Fi'
WatchKalibRun.com
Pain don't hurt...
He is a ruthless, sadistic little man.
The way he finished the throw was just grotesque. Aoki was so pleased with himself afterward, it was kind of disturbing.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 11, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Are we ever going to get tired about overreacting to wrestling?
yes, there are shitty fights. There were shitty fights before mma got filled with wrestlers, there will be shitty fights after. just like there are shitty baseball games, and shitty basketball games, and shitty everything.
Gotta have bad fights
To appreciate the good fights!
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
Support independent artists
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20 uses of the phrase "butt scoot" and not one Nick Serra reference.
Consider me extremely disappointed.
We need that gif NOW
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
...
"How do you shoot the devil in the back? What if you miss?"
by DamnSevern on Sep 10, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Let's move this attitude to every sport
I’ll start
Baseball:
I’m tired of these bitch ass pitchers that keep throwing curveballs. The fans like to see hits, the fans like home runs, and those happen when the ball goes straight down the center. They may be getting strikeouts with these curveballs, but it’s really boring to me
by Jason H. on Sep 10, 2010 2:49 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Er… but EVERY baseball fan would be stoked to see a 20-K performance. No one wants to see someone set the record for most LnP in a five round fight….
“HE DID IT!!! 25 minutes and 55 seconds of total lay and pray!!!! Can you believe this Joe???”
/Rogan punches Goldberg and walks away
"Frankie Edgar... beat the fuck out of Snooki, that's why she looks like Dio after Sabbath." --Joey Diaz
by Anthony Pace on Sep 10, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Fan education is the difference
Fundamentally the notion of someone swinging at a ball and missing for 3 hours is not exciting. It’s exciting because you know the sport and understand the rules and intricacies.
A lot of MMA fans are still looking for home runs only, and that’s why you see message boards full of “fuck this grappling stuff just knock him out!!”
Yeah
I hate how uneducated Dan Hardy and Shinya Aoki are about MMA.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Modern day Tank Abbotts
Sad but true. When you’re bitching about a major aspect of the sport that you are bad at defending, you just sound like a jackass.
Remember when Tank Abbott used to bitch about submission guys being pussies because he didn’t feel like learning sub defense? These guys are playing the same fucking tune.
Well that's what it boils down to
Aoki could have had an exciting fight with Melendez if he knew how to strike.
Hardy is not complaining about the same thing Aoki is. He has no problem with side control and a good ground battle without strikes and risk as long as it’s active. Aoki is shitting on half his fellow lightweights because they use wrestling.
When I first watched UFC 1
Nobody had to explain to me why it was awesome that this little Brazilian guy was forcing bigger, stronger guys to submit. While I have a little background in boxing and striking, nobody ever had to explain to me why I found kicking and punching. And yet, on this site, many, many people seem intent on educating me about how awesome it is to watch a top control tactician grind his way to a UD victory.
This is the difference between the NFL and golf. The only people who like to watch golf are people who play (or played) golf. If you don’t play golf, watching golf is boring and no amount of explanation is going to make it interesting.
The NFL is fundamentally interesting to millions and millions of people who couldn’t throw a spiral if their lives depended on it.
I get that wrestlers and former wrestlers are very proud to see their brethren kicking ass (sort of) in professional MMA, but no amount of education is going to make it fun to watch.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Monte Fisto on Sep 10, 2010 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I feel the same way about baseball as you do about golf.
It’s so fucking boring to me, and aside from the pitcher, the athletic activity is lacking to the point the point where I don’t think it’s a sport and belongs in the pasttime category alongside golf, bowling, etc. I could burn more calories just going for a walk in the same amount of time. Nonetheless, baseball is so damn big in America and Japan.
Most North Americans feel the same way about soccer, yet it’s the most popular sport in the world. On the flip side, many countries don’t find ice hockey exciting (including much of the US), whereas I couldn’t invent a more exciting team sport if I tried. Obscene speed, violent collisions, ridiculous hand-eye coordination, continuous flow… What else could a sports fan ask for?
So I don’t know if your ‘fundamentally interesting’ argument has any relevance.
we agree about baseball, if nothing else
But baseball, unlike golf, has a great many followers who have never played the game in any serious way. Something about tradition, fathers and sons, blah, blah, blah.
I recently started playing golf, and will now linger a little longer when I come across golf on television since I have a better understanding of what’s going on, and how talented those pros really are. Still, I would never try to convince anyone that it is intrinsically interesting.
I can’t know everyone’s background here, but I am pretty sure that I have never heard an impassioned argument for Fitch-style wrestle-humping from anyone other former wrestlers, who, because of their background, understand at a fundamental level how talented he is, and probably get a thrill out of seeing him stick it to these tough guys who are trying to knock his block off.
My point is, that style turns almost everyone else off. If it becomes more and more the norm, the UFC will have a harder time attracting new fans, and ultimately even wrestling fanboys will suffer for it.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
All i know is my friends have become less interested in mma because of the wrestle fests and my girlfriend wont even casually watch mma with me because she says its boring now
pandaboy99 is correct
I have recently had the same experiences with the people that I am trying to get into the sport.
I still don't understand what happened here
"How do you shoot the devil in the back? What if you miss?"
The ref claimed he verbaly told Aoki to stand befor Mel threw the punch.
If you want to hear my opinion on Les Miles go to BJPenn.com.
If you watch it you can actually see him stepping in to break it up while saying something (my guess is a warning that he was standing it up). Gilbert just happened to already be in dive mode before he could.
by Empty Thoughts on Sep 10, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Beautifully done by Melendez. He could have stayed on the feet with a WTF face, but he improvised (probably) and made Aoki pay.
I'm a lover not a fighter
Maybe I was wrong above, and you don’t need a head kick to thwart the scoot.
I guess if you’re running away from the scoot and waiting for the ref to stand it up, then you should be warned for timidity.
I wonder if pre 24 shock clock nba teams bitched and moaned that the fans werent educated enough to understand the nuance of passing and playing keep away?
I'm a moderate NBA fan, but
basketball is a fucked up sport. You need so many damn rules to keep the game balanced, and they’re so subjective that it’s impossible to referee. Then you have bad refs compounding the problem.
Consider when they outlawed the zone defense. How the fuck can you outlaw a defensive scheme? I’m glad hockey didn’t follow that route when dealing with the trap.
I imagine that the pre-shot clock era was worse than a soccer game where Italy had a lead. It’s basically impossible to take the ball away from someone without committing a foul.
Judges need to be taught that being on top control guard doesn’t automatically = winning and that you have to compare the relative offense of the two fighters (which they’ve gotten right in fights like Guida/Diego and Barret/Grabowski) .
Other than that I have no problem with the presence of wrestling in MMA. There are people in every combat sport with unappealing styles.
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
What are some examples of fights they got wrong due to LnP?
I really can’t remember any where the guy getting layed upon deserved a win according to the 10-9 must system.
I think the bigger problem is the 10-9 scoring. If you barely win a round due to scoring, then that is equal to a round where you’re just short of a 10-8 domination. I think 10-8 or should be the norm, with close rounds being 10-9 and blowouts 10-7 or 10-6. Either that or discard the 10-9 system entirely.
Correction
I meant “barely win a round due to top control”
They need to award 10-10 and 10-8 rounds way more.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Sep 10, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the 10 point must system is fine
I just think that it’s implemented incorrectly. Judges should be taught that it’s okay to give out 10-10 (and 10-8) rounds and that a boogyman from the AC won’t kill you if they do. And that takedowns by themselves aren’t enough to score points if there isn’t anything behind it.
In the two fights I mentioned in the comment you replied to, there was at least one judge who gave away a round to a fighter who had top position in guard simply because of he had top position even though according to The Unified Rules the bottom fighter was actually the more effective grappler.
(f) Effective grappling is judged by considering the amount of successful executions of a legal takedown and reversals. Examples of factors to consider are take downs from standing position to mount position, passing the guard to mount position, and bottom position fighters using an active, threatening guard.
I think guys like Fitch get shit on too much because in addition to his takedowns and occasional punches he actually renders the bottom fighter inert a lot of the times which leads the judges to evaluate a guy with at the very least some offense in comparison to the fighter who did pretty much nothing (like during Alves 2). But being on top shouldn’t be an automatic win if the fighter on the bottom is putting on just as much if not more offensive from his back.
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
Judges should be taught that it’s okay to give out 10-10
Oh, they’re aware – a lot of them just don’t believe in them. I had to sit and listen to Sal D’Amato say as much a few weeks ago.
As the old school guys are phased out and more educated judges take their places, we’ll get there…
by Chris Nelson on Sep 10, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I can see...
where professional judges probably see giving a 10-10 as saying they aren’t smart enough to determine who was the better fighter in a given round.
I’m not saying its right, but professionals paid to give opinions often feel like they need to be able to provide a decisive answer, and a 10-10 round probably feels very indecisive to them.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
I don’t doubt that you can find individual scorecards where an active ground fighter loses a round he shouldn’t. However, you also find stand up round scored incorrectly. It’s just the nature of subjectivity, not something specific to top control.
What I was asking for was a list of fights where an active ground fighter lost and the LnPer won. I really can’t think of many. Most boring fights were boring because the guy on his back was only trying to stop damage. No escapes, no submission attempts, no strikes from his back. Just tie up your opponent and wait for the standup.
i’m sure i’d hate something that I couldn’t beat too, there’s a reason why he wants no part of the UFC LW’s.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
it depends on how the wrestling is used, Lay & Pray SUCKS!
Frankie Edgar, Gray Maynard (especially), & Nik Lentz use it to stall. They don’t usually use it to attack. Chael Sonnen uses his wrestling very well & uses it for offense.
The refs need to stand it up if there isn’t anything going on…
A. The guard is a neutral position or else the ref wouldn’t bring them back to a standing position.
B. Q-tip body punches & not working for dominant position or submission for 2 minutes is a waste of time.
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
gotta love Aoki, the guy speaks his mind
will never forget this past dynamite because of Shinya Aoki.
hope he can come back to strikeforce and get a win though. losing here was not a good look. Pretty impressive in Dream though.
Team Pioli/Haley. Decade of the Chiefs.
Team Colquitt
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