Thought's on B.J. Penn's Conditioning
by drano on Sep 1, 2010 7:41 PM EDT
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PrintOver the last couple of years I've sat through endless articles and countless F words by Dana White describing B.J. Penn's conditioning and work ethic, Even on this site I've listened to all the criticism with Jonathan Snowden summing up a period of Penn's fighting career memorably (stereotypically) by saying B.J. was fighting between buffets and spam. This is pretty much the consensus in the MMA community regarding the former champ. Myself I've never been satisfied with this, here's a guy who has not only competed at the highest levels of two sports but has reigned as a champion in both. How could anyone accomplish any one of those feats by being lazy and out of shape? The short answer is he couldn't. Now I know what some of you are thinking, hasn't B.J. come out before and been critical of his conditioning. The truth is yes, however when you look at it in context we usually hear it when he's promoting a fight. Looking back over the last couple of years it's pretty much how his fights have been promoted for the better part of his career and it's helped him make quite a bit of money. When you look at the fights they tell a different story, in 23 bouts Penn's gone to decision 9 times 4 of which were five round title fights and 3 of them were in between "spam and buffets." Now I've been fortunate enough to attend a fair share of smaller promotions and have seen first hand what bad conditioning looks like and I will say this much, it definitely did not last 15 minutes let alone 25. So I wasn't surprised when I read this out of B.J. Penn's "Why I fight" book where B.J. himself said "I have always been labeled a guy who does not train hard, someone who sits back on the island taking it easy, thinking my natural abilities can carry me through. This belief could not be further from the truth. I worked hard from the first day i started doing this." This pretty much sold me on it. The truth is that for most of B.J.'s career he didn't know how to train properly nobody really did in the sports infancy. Even the argument that his attitude towards dieting was what led him to fight at heavyweight is flawed to an extent, while Penn does admit he wasn't dieting as he should have the fact is when he fought Lyoto Machida at heavyweight he was around 180 pounds and it was 2 years after he had already made the move to welterweight. I truly don't believe that it's his conditioning that's held him back in this sport if you look at some of his most defining losses it's been against some pretty incredible athletes (GSP, Hughes, and Edgar). Penn himself isn't that impressive athletically in even his long time coach Jason Parillo says so in the January 2010 issue of Fighters Only Magazine crediting most of his success on, how about that, his work ethic. Personally I think the tag of having bad condition has stuck with him long enough and it's too bad that his career will probably be defined by it.
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Jason Perillo is a hack
i LOVE BJ PENN, but lets be real..hes the ONLY elite fighter that doesnt have a camp filled with trained killers, he has a bunch of “yes men” that are deathly afraid of him!! tell me this, how does someone get better at anyhting in life?? you train and get pushed to your limits by someone BETTER than you!! u cant get better at something if you are the best at it in your camp. thats why BJJ guys train with black belts….to learn and progress. do u think a brown belt will become a black belt by training with white belts and blue belts. BJ is supremely gifted at his craft, but thats as far as it goes without HARD WORK!!
what makes you think he trains with a bunch of yes men? He’s been known to fly in a bunch of world class training partners
Diaz bros
helped him for the Sanchez (I think) fight. That’s as world-class as world-class gets. 209 biyotch!
The words “class” and “Diaz” should not be used in the same breath.
"Pain don’t hurt" James Dalton
"take the biggest guy in the world, shatter his knee and he’ll drop like a stone." James Dalton
by James Dalton on Sep 2, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Pretty much that.
"Pain don’t hurt" James Dalton
"take the biggest guy in the world, shatter his knee and he’ll drop like a stone." James Dalton
And that, you stay classy Diaz.
"Pain don’t hurt" James Dalton
"take the biggest guy in the world, shatter his knee and he’ll drop like a stone." James Dalton
Looks like Nick's got some high class grass there
and he doesn’t care what James Dalton thinks.
I think it works fine in a sentence.
I'm the best ever. You're the most average in a minute.
by slapjaw ackrite on Sep 3, 2010 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m sure BJ works pretty hard, just not as hard as the best. But most of the “problem” just seems to be the effort it takes to maintain a long term standard of dominance. BJ is a creative, mercurial type of person, who has a lot of ups and downs emotionally. He’s not methodical in the way GSP or Frankie Edgar are, for example, and I think he means it when he says he’s a fighter, and not an athlete. Maybe he just doesn’t have the kind of consistent purpose and discipline a cream of the crop, elite athlete often displays. It’s not some disorder or something, most people don’t. Plenty of people have the skills to win titles, high profile fights, or what have you. But it’s just a rare breed who can consistently put in the effort, patience and discipline it requires, while dealing with the demands on your time as champion, the pressure, the constant praise, etc. Anderson and BJ remind me of each other. They’re both high strung, emotional people who have to go a little nuts to fight their best. I just think Anderson is a little more in love with being the champ. BJ may just be a bit bored with it.
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Sep 1, 2010 11:56 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
Good point.
Then again, having a good, quality camp to train with is one way to combat lack of purpose and discipline. Having someone as good as you or even better than you there every day to push you, motivate you and make you work makes it easier to keep working.
You don't like wrestling in MMA? Go watch K-1.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Sep 2, 2010 3:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Sure, the point is BJ should know this about himself by now, and put his career in someone else’s hands to a degree. Just doubt his ego will allow it.
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Sep 2, 2010 3:31 AM EDT up reply actions
good insight yeah I agree, I also agree that it’s time he started thinking about a new camp not that his camp isn’t good just his opponents are better, don’t think they gameplan at all just kind of let him go in the cage and it works when he’s fighting guys that aren’t particularly better then him at any given skillset but it’s disastrous when it’s not.
I agree on all counts. I don’t believe this is something he can ever correct, if he hasn’t done it by age 31. And quite frankly, I’m not even sure if this type of discipline can be learned, or if it’s gene-deep.
"You hear people say, 'You're the greatest,' and all this stuff. It's BS. It's fake, it's all fake. You've just got to keep training as hard as you can. The only thing real is the fight, everything else is fake." - BJ Penn
Could be it can’t be learned, but one might be able to buy it – in the sense of hiring someone who will kick your a** into training harder.
Don't like wrestling in MMA? Go watch K-1.
Can't deal with the occasional boring fight? Let me introduce you to ROH.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Sep 3, 2010 3:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Good insight
Rec’d. Its not often you hear a sound arguement that makes people butthurt because they dont think for themselves.
Penn is not a hard worker, and doesn’t have good conditioning. He’s never out cardio-ed anyone. He breaks mentally when he can’t break the other guy early on. Of course he’s not going to admit that in his book.
Penn is perhaps the most naturally gifted fighter when it comes to natural attributes that pertain to MMA. That has gotten him where he is now – in the 2nd tier of all time greats, but clearly below the top echelon.
well I personally don’t agree with the second tier thing, when a guy’s done twice as much as the guy’s in the top echelon it’s time to rethink that. Someone brought up that he’ll never be like the babe ruth of the sport but people forget that Babe Ruth also held the most times struck out record as well, as far as his cardio your right he’s never out cardio’d anybody but neither have a lot of great fighters my point is that it’s never been the sole purpose for his downfall could his cardio been better yeah, but was it the only reason he’s came up short in the cage no.
So your argument against him having poor cardio is that he also has other weakness that lead to his losses? That’s strange logic.
And no, Penn has not done twice as much as guys in the top echelon of legend status.
I think he’s gotten a little bit of a bad rap but NO ONE can deny there was a difference in his conditioning when he tarined witht the Marinovich’s. That was BJ in good shape. His physique was noticeably different than the last2 fights.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Sep 2, 2010 1:49 PM EDT reply actions
this...
Let’s assume BJ trains hard, relative to how he used to train hard.
Can we all agree that he doesn’t train as smart as GSP or others with elite camps?
Can we agree that he when he was with Marinovich, he was in better shape than he was the last two fights?
I’m not on the BJ-is-lazy bandwagon, but I think he could, and should, train differently. (yeah, who am I?)
The way that Brock, the AKA guys, and Jackson camps train are effective for a reason. There are plenty of exceptions (Sonnen comes to mind), but Sonnen is a bad ass wrestler who surrounds himself with bad ass wrestlers.
Being overrated is overrated.
I think you’ve got it there. It’s not enough to train hard, you have to train smart, with focus. You need people around you better than you are at something, who can offer constructive criticism and show you things. People who can gameplan an opponent, and customize your training for that one fight. Conditioning wasn’t even a huge problem in the Edgar fights. I didn’t see BJ gassing out against Frankie, he just wasn’t fired up one bit, and he didn’t have answers for a strategy he should’ve expected and prepped for. He looked more disheartened and frustrated than exhausted. And I don’t know if that’s something a better camp or coach can fix for him. If BJ doesn’t consider you his blood rival, if you don’t talk smack, he’s not up for the fight.
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Sep 3, 2010 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Good post
I dont understand why people seem to think they know how to make BJ Penn (or any fighter for that matter) a better fighter. He trains hard enough to destroy every other lightweight contender he faced. He trained hard enough to beat the most dominant WW champ in history.
People spend way too much time focusing on image. They think Penn is lazy and GSP is the god of training.
As far as I can remember, BJ has never had a serious injury delay a fight. And since GSP/Penn II, Penn has fought 4 times and GSP on twice. I won’t criticize Penn’s training methods at all.
"Deserve's got nothing to do with it." -Will Munny, a known thief and murderer, a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition.
Agreed, you've got a lot of great points
I think most people are looking for a reason behind BJ’s lesser performances. If he doesn’t have the desire to fight anymore, all the training/conditioning in the world won’t matter. (It hurts to type that)
It’s not image, it’s results. Penn has shown poor work ethic and conditioning. LOL at using fighting frequency between he and GSP, since they’ve shelved GSP to put him on TUF so they can build up a competitor, since GSP has already beaten them all.
Penn’s results are spectacular. I’m pretty sure the fighters who wouldn’t trade their career for BJ Penn’s career you could count on one hand.
GSP has shown poor work ethic as well. But that image didn’t stick with him for some reason.
TUF had something to do with the gap, but so did the injury he had during the Alves fight.
"Deserve's got nothing to do with it." -Will Munny, a known thief and murderer, a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition.
Rec'd
For not believing everything being spoonfed to us all.
I'm the best ever. You're the most average in a minute.
by slapjaw ackrite on Sep 2, 2010 11:01 PM EDT reply actions
bj talks about his poor training in his own book...
alot of the bj penn talk about him not training hard enough was confirmed by BJ in his own book. The training book he did on MMA .. It said in it He hurt his rib in the hughes match up.. but it happened because he didnt train enough.. then went on to say he lost gsp vs 1 because of not training enough too.
I own the book but have lent it to a friend otherwise i would quote it for you.
That is not what he was saying. he was saying that if he had trained a little more intelligently his body might not have failed him (broken rib), which, to me is a bit superstitious more than anything.
Quotes from..BJ Penn The Book of Knowledge... friend returned the book yesterday.
pg 15 2nd column 2nd paragraph. On the GSP vs BJ 1 fight….
“my first opponent upon my return was GSP, an all-around mixed martial arts fighter. I didn’t take the fight lightly, but I didn’t train as hard as I should have. I definitely didn’t train the six hours I do now.”
3rd paragraph " I don’t feel that Pierre outfought me; but I feel I was outconditioned."
Pg 16 column 1 paragraph 4 ..on the Matt Hughes fight for a chance at GSP and the belt..
“I blamed the loss on a freak accident in the coming days, but I now realize that’s not what happened. I lost the fight due to improper conditioning. I was in excellent cardiovascular condition, but I wasn’t in perfect physical condition. The reason I say this is because I hadn’t focused on being the best athlete I could everyday of the year.” …." My rib broke not because I was unlucky, but rather because I hadn’t stayed in flawless fighting shape year-round." " If I had been doing five thousand sit-ups every day and eating healthy meals every time i sat down at the table, my rib would most likely have held fast."
the book is good and I was suprised that BJ explained this as his final version of what happened. It seems obvious that BJ feels in his heart that conditioning his body is where he was lacking.. Is there some other reason for BJ to Lie or cover up his conditioning.. when he himself has admited to it?
Overlooked...
BJ Penn didn’t come from an amateur wrestling background, nor did he come from any type of organized martial arts background at a young age. So when we criticize his lack of work ethic and conditioning it should be noted that there is no reason to expect him to have a great work ethic or be in the habit of being well conditioned. Consider where most MMA fighters were when they were 17, most were probably 4+ years into some type of martial art/wrestling/boxing program… BJ Penn was smoking ganja and getting kicked out of school.
He didn’t even know what BJJ was before he was 17. 3.5 years later he was the best in the world. He went from boxing with his friends on his porch to being known as the best fighter in the world. When we admire him, it should be for his abilities and talents, not his work ethic or lack thereof.
The problem with your argument is that being in a fight that goes to a decision, whether it is a 3 or 5 rounder, doesn’t tell you anything about the conditioning of the fighters. You would be much better analyzing the specifics of BJ’s past fights. For instance…
1) Does BJ tire in his fights more or less than his opponent?
2) Are his fights fast-paced or slow?
3) Does he push the pace?
I’ve never seen one of BJ’s opponents more tired than he was. BJ’s fights are generally not fast-paced, they are a little slower paced and I believe BJ does that purposely to conserve his energy, he does not push the pace.
A good indicator of BJ’s commitment in recent fights is clearly visible to all in his physique. During fights BJ carries around more body fat than any other top lightweight. Instead of cutting water weight and draining himself just prior to fights, BJ could lose a few pounds of fat and it would improve his performance during fights.
I think the criticism of Penn comes because we are viewing him in a certain context.
It’s mostly a bunch of hyperbole, because we are viewing him through a certain prism.
Because Sarah Jessica Parker is a t.v. actress she gets called a horse-face, when she’s way beyond the average chick and probably a lot hotter than the grenade you’re dating.
Allen Iverson is child sized on the basketball court, but in reality is well above the average at 6’.
BJ Penn works hard and has tremendous cardio compared to the average person, and solid cardio compared to the average MMA fighter. But he’s only fighting elite fighters with elite cardio, so when seen in this light he seems lazy, spoiled, and getting by on only natural talent. Never mind that some people seem to have a natural constant motor that doesn’t shut off.
I think it might be fair to say that Penn doesn’t have an unrelenting drive to be the best. I think he likes to train certain aspects of his game and is willing to work hard, but does not have an all consuming fire that pushes him to win. During his last few rounds with Edgar I got the feeling that he just wanted to do what he wanted to do, use his boxing skills to outclass Edgar. Edgar wasn’t sticking around to get in exchanges or make it about boxing skills. At this point BJ looked tired but not completely gassed, frustrated but not necessarily hurt. He could have gone for broke, gone in swinging with Edgar and tried to chase him down. Or really gone all out on take-downs and looking to finish. Instead he just kinda rode things out.
BJ works hard, but not as hard as he possibly could and not as hard as the other top guys. Calling him lazy is ridiculous, but is close enough shorthand when comparing him to the most elite fighters out there.
by Balrog on Sep 4, 2010 3:51 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Okay, Sarah Jessica Parker is NOT “way beyond the average chick.” I’m not saying she’s butt ugly, and I’ll even admit she has a certain charm, but she’s not particularly good looking. Her face is crooked and displeasing.
I agree with a lot of what you said, but you will NOT COMPARE BJ PENN TO SARAH JESSICA PARKER GOD DAMNIT.
"You hear people say, 'You're the greatest,' and all this stuff. It's BS. It's fake, it's all fake. You've just got to keep training as hard as you can. The only thing real is the fight, everything else is fake." - BJ Penn
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