Where Does B.J. Penn Go From Here After UFC 118 Loss to Frankie Edgar?
by Kid Nate on Sep 1, 2010 1:01 PM EDT
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We've been debating the impact of his two straight losses to Frankie Edgar pretty vehemently around these parts, but there's been a great deal of discussion of B.J. Penn's future all over the net and I wanted to catch BE readers up.
First up, The Honolulu Star Advertiser:
For the second time in less than two years, and first at 155 pounds, we saw Penn manhandled to the point that it was almost tough to watch. Mouth open, gasping for air, eating combinations, getting taken down with ease, it was a bad night all the way around for the Penn camp.
It's up to him where he goes from here. He knows what it takes to fully prepare for a fight, and for his last two against Edgar, he hasn't been willing to do it.
He's spent all of his time in Hilo, working with the same group of guys that surround him every day.
If Penn is going to continue on from here, he has to first figure out if he wants it. If what it takes is to get back with Marinovich or find another team that will push him and make him better in ways he's not getting now in Hilo, is he willing to do it?
It could be just the post-fight blues talking, but I don't hear a man who's eager to climb back to the top and get his revenge on the lightweight champ. I hear a man who may be wondering how much longer he wants to keep doing this.
It's an especially delicate issue for Penn, whose desire has always been a greater impediment than his talent. Ever since he came on the scene in 2001, there's been no doubt as just how good Penn can be when he's motivated and well trained. The only question is, and has been for the last several years, will that be the Penn who shows up on fight night?
...
At 31, and with a career that hasn't involved too many damaging beatings, Penn could absolutely physically continue in the UFC. The question isn't whether he can make himself do it; it's whether he really wants to. That's the hard part. It's also the part no one else can help him with.
Josh Gross tried to put any retirement rumors to rest on his SI Radio show (transcription via Fight Opinion):
"There has been talk in previous losses about retirement. These are words that, he actually openly spoke out about retirement. My understanding is that he's not saying that now. He's gotten already past any possible point of saying I'm going to walk away from Mixed Martial Arts. So, BJ Penn fans, rejoice in that. He will fight again. What exactly his motivation is and where exactly he goes, what he accomplishes, I don't know, but can he rebound? I mean, can he find the form that he did 9, 10 years ago when he started in this thing, when he blew through people? I don't think so. I don't think so. Not unless there's a major shift in his life. He's a father now. He's got a young child. Married, I think married, but he definitely has a long-time girlfriend. I don't, I just don't see him recapturing what he had. I don't, I think it's very difficult if you're a fighter, especially someone who was anointed early on as he was, The Prodigy. I mean I think says it all in terms of what people's expectations were of BJ Penn. When you have that and all of a sudden you can't compete at the level that you once could, mentally you can't get up, you can't meet the challenge in front of you... I don't think BJ's the kind of guy that's going to fight until he can't do it any more. I don't think he's the guy that's going to be like a James Toney, 42, out of shape, looking for a pay day. That's not BJ Penn. He's never been that way, he's always expressed the exact opposite, he doesn't want to do that. So I'm, you know, I don't know."
As for B.J. himself, Penn says he "wants a fight as soon as possible."
We'll hear from Dave Meltzer and Sherdog about who should be next for Penn in the full entry.
Dave Meltzer speculates about what's next for B.J. Penn:
While a move to welterweight would give him a number of fresh matches with new name opponents, he was clearly too small and took a pounding the last time he fought at that weight, against Georges St. Pierre at UFC 94. An in-shape Penn gives up a good 15 pounds to most in the division in the cage, and 25 to the major weight-cutters.
As a lightweight, booking him becomes difficult. Because of who Penn is and the money he commands, he has to fight stars. Penn would need a strong winning streak to get another title shot if Edgar becomes a long-term champion. But if Gray Maynard, Edgar's next opponent, wins the title, as long as Penn hasn't lost again, he would immediately be the contender people would most like to see challenge.
Meltzer's first assumption is that moving up to welterweight is not the right thing for Penn. Failing a Gray Maynard win over Frankie Edgar, Meltzer therefore eliminates rising contenders like Evan Dunham or George Sotiropolous since a Penn win would eliminate but not create a contender. If Frankie becomes a long-term champ, Penn is locked in the dreaded Rich Franklin quandary -- too good for most of the division, not good enough to beat the champ.
Meltzer considers Clay Guida and Takanori Gomi, but ultimately settles on Nate Diaz as the fighter he thinks is the best next opponent for B.J. Penn.
I have to disagree since I don't expect Nate to go back down to lightweight anytime soon.
Sherdog's Tomas Rios likes Guida next for Penn:
Trying to match Penn when he's coming off two straight losses is a vexing proposition for the UFC. Mainly because he's a valuable commodity, but the lightweight division doesn't have much in the way of easy fights that fans will find palatable either.
Guida solves that problem nicely. Lay fans would flock to see him fight his own reflection, and he's just enough of a threat to satisfy my inner matchmaking purist. Penn's two bouts with Edgar crystallized the notion that beating the prodigiously talented Hawaiian means staying in his grill and making him uncomfortable.
Who do you think should be next for B.J. Penn?
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TAKANORI GOMI!!!!!!
Remember how I said I’d never buy an Edgar-Maynard PPV? That was a lie. I’ll buy it if this fight is co-main.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
huh. weird.
maybe it was before Aug. 22.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Monte Fisto on Sep 1, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Nice
I'm the best ever. You're the most average in a minute.
by slapjaw ackrite on Sep 1, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
It was subtle and yet very firm...
To all you parents out there, this is how it’s done.
awe shucks
I’m blushing.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
I remember. But really, that’s not something I should remember. Clearly I spend way too much time here. At any rate, a Penn/Gomi co main event would give an Edgar/Maynard card some extra excitement.
Hah
I’m certain I spend way too much time here, as is my wife, but what are you gonna do?
The UFC could package all the odds and ends fights they wanted onto one card, and I’d have a hard time passing it up if it had Penn-Gomi on it. That’s a hell of a fun matchup.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
Gomi
It just makes to much sense to miss this opportunity. If Gomi wins (He won’t) he earned a title shot. When Penn wins, it’s not enough for a title shot against Frankie but it could get him into position to fight Maynard if he wins the belt.
Penn could give a crap about the belt, anyway. He just wants to fight the best guys. Load him up with them until, maybe, another title shot makes sense.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
Florian
Florian should be on that list.
"I'd love to be a Cheick Kongo looking brother that could actually move and do a lot of funky stuff - Jiu Jitsu, takedowns, kicks and stuff." - Jon Jones.
"This is the internet: you either have soul-stopping power or you’re a pillow-fisted pansy. There is no middle ground." - woomikee
Yeah I said that yesterday and I'm sticking to it.
Gomi would be fun too
When some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head up against the barroom wall, and he looks you crooked in the eye and he asks you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail." - Jack Burton
Lol Actually all I read was the subject line
I didn’t say anything about Florian yesterday – just Diaz.
When some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head up against the barroom wall, and he looks you crooked in the eye and he asks you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail." - Jack Burton
yep
…voted for “other”, with Kenny Florini in mind.
"Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherf**ker" - Jules Winnfield
"A good word that I got from the Mike Tyson Documentary... I'm going to absolutley decimate this motherf**ker, I haven't been in the dictionary to see what it actually means but I'm guessing it's going to be something in the way of just killing a motherf**ker." -Paul Daley (on the definition of Decimate)
Gomi makes the most sense to me.
Realistically the loser of that fight doesn’t have a chance to make too much noise in the division from here on out. This also saves any of the division’s young blood from being sacrificed.
Gomi, Guida or Diaz.
All three of those make me feel warm and fuzzy inside.
A welterweight
Named Matt Hughes
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
I think thats actually a better fight for Nate Diaz then BJ
"If I woke up looking like that, I would run towards the nearest living thing and kill it." -Master Shake
We have to take the amulet to the banana king!
Good point!
Diaz gets a credible name if he wins…
… Hughes builds more fanfare and students if he wins.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Sep 1, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I voted for Guida, he has a huge following and his in your face style could be sold as a threat to BJ. Plus he makes his opponents look good when he loses (See Kenny Florian/Diego Sanchez/Roger Huerta fights)
such an interesting point. bleeds easy and it mixes with the hair. any shot that connects gets an added visual aid from the hair.
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Sep 1, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I voted for Guida. I think Penn should be given a comeback fight, and if he can’t beat Guida, then maybe he should retire. I’m not trying to take anything away from Clay, but he really isn’t an elite fighter. He is, however, coming off a big win, and if there is anyone in the UFC LW division that can be called a “poor man’s Frankie Edgar”, it’s Guida. Penn can fight Guida, and if he wins (it’s hard to believe he wouldn’t, unless he’s really fallen off the ledge), he can get a little boost in his fighting ego, and maybe do a rematch against Florian. Then Gomi, maybe.
I don’t like the Gomi fight right now; I mean, I LOVE the Gomi fight, as in it would be fantastic, but there aren’t really any contenders at the top of the division, and I’d hate to knock one off with a Penn-Gomi fight. On the other hand, I think it’s fair to say that they should make the matches now that people want to see, and not worry about a title picture, since anything can happen and maybe in a years time, that match won’t or can’t happen. Tough call, but I’d like Penn to have a warm-up first.
"The common denominator of the Universe is not harmony, but chaos, hostility, and murder."
"Opinionated weather forecasters telling me it's going to be a miserable day. Miserable to who? I quite like a bit of drizzle, so stick to the facts!"
"Shoot him again... his soul is still dancing!"
by Ephemeral Artery on Sep 1, 2010 1:30 PM EDT reply actions
Even by basically not preparing, Penn would still demolish quite a large part of the LW division. In fact, I’d say that against just about anyone not named Frankie Edgar, Penn would be a huge favorite to win. Therefore – should there be a next fight – we’d be better off looking at how Penn fights instead of the outcome of the fight. If he shows up with the same lack of interest and urgency that he had vs Edgar, it might be a time for him to hang up the gloves. However, if he shows up motivated, put him in line for a title eliminator.
You don't like wrestling in MMA? Go watch K-1.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Sep 1, 2010 1:38 PM EDT reply actions
First off he needs to ditch the "Yes Men" that he trains with
Nobody is pushing him. His corner’s advice during the fight was an absolute joke.
Check out my pic a day for a year project-
Life Through My Lens
I don't think Penn is going to change anything.
I just don’t. I think he enjoys being top dog in his camp and enjoys people glorifying him. His ego seem to constantly need stroking. If he does make a change, it’ll be minor, like the supposed “changes” that Chuck made right before he got creamed by Shogun.
That being said, the fan in me wants to see Penn/Gomi II. However, I voted Clay.
Sotiropoulos makes the most sense. He’s the highest ranked guy available that Penn hasn’t already fought.
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Richard is a jewel." - Kid Nate
But if we’re going to go the Guida route, I’d rather see Penn fight Gleison Tibau.
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Richard is a jewel." - Kid Nate
The mma purist in me...
Wants to see Penn vs G-Sot too. I think G-Sot would give Penn more challenge on the ground than anyone has in the LW division and while he doesn’t have the speed of Frankie, he certainly has very solid boxing fundamentals. G-Sot is on a tear and he has the motivation to go for the belt. If G-Sot wins, he secures a title shot and BJ no longer has what it takes to stay relevant at the top. If BJ wins, he has his fire back, but unfortunately, G-Sot has to start climbing back up and hes already 35. Not a big fan of burning GSot if he loses.
Penn vs Gomi makes the most sense from all angles to me. Its a rematch of an epic battle from years ago. Its two fighters who have had similar fall from grace due to primarily motivation. Both have the potential to put on a great fight. If Gomi wins, he’s making a strong case for contendership, and BJ is done at LW. If BJ wins, he’ll have stopped the hole in his sinking ship, and Gomi fights lower level guys again. I don’t think the UFC or the fans lose as much if Gomi loses than if GSot does.
Penn / Guida is the perfect match for sacrificing a guy, but the mma purist in me is not too thrilled.
yeah, because there’s such a huge difference in looks between 33 and 37. dude looks like he’s 55
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Sep 1, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Penn/Gomi please.
Penn/Guida I could see being the most entertaining, inevitable rear naked choke defeat for Guida though.
Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.
BJ needs to be fired up. He needs to conduct camps outside of Hawaii. Hire new trainers and needs to go back to bringing in the Marinoviches along with other MMA stars as training partners that will push him. His camps for Sherk, Florian, and Sanchez were stellar. It still seemed like he didn’t take Edgar or even St. Pierre that seriously (I brought up St. Pierre because BJ had Justin McCully and Shane Nelson training with him on UFC Primetime). With the St. Pierre and Edgar matches BJ had too much belief in his hands and thought he could get a KO or a quick sub and call it a night. Which kind of reminds me of the old Frank Mir approach. Lets hope BJ gets his shit together and Dana/Joe Silva setup a Gomi vs Penn 2 before it is no longer marketable.
all he really needs is the Marinoviches. He was cleary in better physical condition working with them, looked trim and ripped for the Sanchez fight, and damn near had a spare tire going for the Edgar fights. even without bringing in new sparring partners, just getting pushed in physical training gives someone more confidence and fire. Marv Marinovich may be an overbearing ass of a father, but he can light a fire under someone’s ass.
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Sep 1, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
BJ should train with a different camp for a while.
He said a lot of thinks about Frankie that were basically projections about himself;
“Who do they have beside Frankie Edgar?” (who does his camp have besides BJ?)
“You get these dreams in your head thinking you’re going to be the best ever, etc.” (I have a feeling BJ thought this would be him before he lost to GSP again)
If I could pick anyone I’d like to see BJ fight Aoki, Huerta, Alvarez or Melendez.
However in the UFC I’d like to see him fight Gomi, Dunham or Sotirtirsoitpsoposlous.
I guess Aussie George or Gomi since Dunham is busy.
That's my vote!
… But, I think Guillard would be like Edgar in the match and that’s OBVIOUSLY not what BJ wants to fight these days.
Penn/ Gomi.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Sep 1, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
What i would like to see is the UFC finally pull the trigger on a US vs Japan(or US vs Asia even) season of TUF next spring with Penn vs Gomi as coaches. They could give both guys a easier fight between then and then have a stare off leading up to TUF. Yea Gomi can’t really speak English but Penn is more than gold for being on tv and it would be good for the UFC to bring in some young Japanese talent and try to build them up outside of Japan. Heck they could even require guys who speak at least basic English for the tryouts. With Dream on the rocks it would be a good time to make that move and would allow BJ to shine on national tv and build up for a big international fight (put that event on as their first in Hawaii and Penn would get himself worked up for that fight). I would imagine they could get some good cultures clashing in the house footage off that too.
No. No more TUF with contenders
You can only have so many seasons of this type of stuff before it grows stale.
Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.
As it stands right now neither Penn nor Gomi are immediate contenders, a TUF like this wouldn’t mess with the progress of the division that much (they could also do Penn vs Florian on TUF but why?). Penn has lost two in a row, being on TUF would build him back up and put him front and center and bring his competitior up with him too.
They’re not contenders, presently.
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
Twitter me and what not.
Penn needs 2-3 solid wins before he can challenge for the title
Start with Guida, who’s got credibility and has notched some solid wins. If Guida loses, that shouldn’t affect Guida’s stock too much. People have seen Guida win and will understand why he couldn’t beat Penn.
Then, after Gomi fights another top 15 LW (and you take a gamble that he’d lose), he’ll have 2 UFC wins, and you can hype that fight up well: BJ vs. Gomi early next year.
After that, depending on who’s still in the top 5 LWs and who’s champion, you could make a case for BJ vs. Maynard (if he’s the champ), and if Frankie is still champ, you give BJ Maynard or a rematch with Florian before he’s able to challenge again for the title.
Being overrated is overrated.
it doesn't matter!
to me it doesn’t matter who he fights, if he thinks or everyone else thinks he can beat anyone in either division fighting the way he looked on saturday, he is not beating anyone! Sorry bj fans but his best days are behind him, face it!
I'll tell you where he isn't going to go
To Johnathon Snowden’s house
by TheBiggertheyare... on Sep 1, 2010 2:05 PM EDT reply actions
Not Guida.
That’s just a giant step down — a guy who was crushed by Florian and basically mangled by Diego Sanchez. Nate Diaz or Soto would be pretty good. Gomi would lose definitively and that would be the end of his ascent…I don’t see the point in that. Frankly, his best, most exciting match-ups are at welterweight or outside of the UFC…Alvarez, Aoki, Melendez, and Thompson among others. I wouldn’t even be shocked if he left the promotion to find those guys. He keeps saying that the belt is just an accessory. I’m beginning to think that he saw it as a limitation. Not saying that he tanked both Edgar fights, because there were a couple moments when he looked to be going for the finish…but he hardly seemed inspired. Maybe it’s the five round fights, everybody trying to make it to the championship rounds with him. Maybe it’s just having the flexibility to fight more often and in different weight classes. I just don’t see him being too distraught by the result of the fight, and I don’t see him wanting to ascend the lightweight ladder for a shot at Edgar or Maynard either. His future will be as interesting as his past.
Clay was only mangled for one round
And damn near won the fight.
He’s a gatekeeper and nothing more but he’ll always give you a battle.
Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.
According to the Observer, Gomi is close to signing a contract to fight Denis Siver on the Germany card.
http://www.instrength.com
HOLY CRAP
I’m sold on 122 then.
Mo Johnston is what John Schneider could be in 4 years.
by SSreporters on Sep 1, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That would be a great fight
Although you’d think that being the first man to finish Tyson Griffin would get you a little higher on the food chain. Still, should be an amazing fight. UFC 122 is really starting to come together.
Siver is a beast
This is an awesome matchup.
I’ll go on record right now if they book Penn vs. Guida, i’m going all in on Clay by decision followed by BJ fans on suicide watch.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
In the big picture Gomi vs. Penn is not a good idea.
Penn will destroy Gomi, and it won’t do very much for him. Gomi vs Guida though, that would be a WAR and whoever won that fight would definitely. As for Penn, I’d love to see him fight Sotiropoulos.
The UFC won't eliminate an up-and-comer.
What Penn needs is a high level gate-keeper who will never win a title, a “challenging tune-up” fight. That basically eliminates Sotiropoulos and Dunham. A Sean Sherk rematch might be a good idea, especially if he beats Dunham. I can understand Gomi too, but the UFC might want to try market him a little more before having Penn crush him. Guida would be too easy. Maybe someone like Kurt Pellegrino would be good.
I'm just a 16 year old kid who loves MMA.
Pellegrino deserves a win right now.
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
Twitter me and what not.
I'd go for a third Hughes fight
but I’m actually concerned BJ would lose. Which would lead to me throwing a TV out the window or something reasonable like that.
"You hear people say, 'You're the greatest,' and all this stuff. It's BS. It's fake, it's all fake. You've just got to keep training as hard as you can. The only thing real is the fight, everything else is fake." - BJ Penn
I think BJ's issue is
I think BJ’s issue is he in fact what he accuses so many of his opponnets are being, an "athlete’ and not a fighter.
I think BJ is likely one of the most gifted athletes; his strength, coordination, flexibility, and speed not to mention his granite chin allowed him to just pick up combat sports naturally.
I think his physical attributes are declining and he never learned the skills without relying on his natural abilities and that he hasn’t had to work as hard as other athletes. I think he worked hard in the lead ups to the Flroian and Sanchez fights but he had a falling out with Marinovich when his commitment to training wavered. He clearly is relying on his natural gifts again and they just aren’t there.
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