Last Word on BJ Penn: Tiers, Hall of Fame, and What Might Have Been

And I can appreciate people disagreeing with that point of view as well, just the way some people bash you is so criminally uncalled for. I think you do your best to illustrate a point of view, and yes sometimes it’s extreme and causes strong reactions but I’d really hope people could at least discuss it reasonably.

I admit I didn’t quite grasp what you were trying to put across in your first post on this topic, but you defined it pretty well in your call-in with Luke on his show. This post is your most concise one yet on this subject. It’s been an interesting discussion, for sure.

What I don’t get is why people freak out whenever they read your stuff. I think it’s great that there are so many different views on BE, even amongst the staff. Life would be so pedestrian if people were only ever preaching to the choir.

I agree with this one at least 163 times more than the first one. This one seems a lot more clear.

I don’t know that I agree 100% with all of it, but everyone is entitled to an opinion.

The fact that Penn has become such a polarizing character will help define his legacy as much as his talent or unreached potential. One way or another, people will remember Penn and some will remember him as better than he was. He is still one of the most popular fighters of the last 10 years and that says something.

This one is defiantly better than the previous. The first two had a few jabs in there and it made it seem as though you weren’t much of a Penn fan, but this one is a lot fairer.

Props for taking the time to lay it out again. When I saw the headline I was thinking “AGAIN, REALLY?”, but this one seems much clearer. We don’t have to agree on the subject for props to be given for a well-written piece.

for both.
This is a much more balanced piece and i can understand that deadlines and emotions straight after the fight can effect how an article might come across.
I have nothing personal against Jonathan Snowden and i think most of your stuff is of a high standard.It’s just some of your opinions that seem to criticise too harshly and you certainly know how to wind MMA fans up! :)
Reading these subsequent articles i really think that you have mostly valid arguments but sometimes put them across in an inflammatory way that can provoke adverse reactions.
Good on you for clarifying your intentions and acknowledging the reasonable arguments against.

Sakaraba, Couture, Wandy, and Nog, are LEGENDS of the sport there is no denying that. I do believe Penn is a hall of famer BJ was a long time pound for pound great and is the only man besides Couture and Hendo to hold a belt in two weight classes in a major promotion. (I know I’m stating the obvious) I get the idea that most people seem to think he’s under performed in his career but I personally don’t think that’s fair. Penn has fought and beaten the best time and time again and he’s one of the few old guards that can still fight and a high level.

It was on the phone, so I was brave.

From what I saw, I think BJ would have won a grappling centric fight.

Where would you place Rich Franklin? Unless you disagree with the decision then nvm.

But I was going just by wins, specifically big wins, when it counts.

Under your context, you would think that Royce would have to be in the top due to him dominating the sport for the very beginning years, and popularizing BJJ. And sakaraba for pretty much being MMA in Japan

He then beat Randy after Randy came back. The only reason that was an interm title was because of legal posturing.

But if he can beat up Rashad, Lyoto again probably, Jones and whoever comes his way, then he will probably deserve it more then anyone. Because if anyone can hold on to the LHW belt right now for more then a few fights, with guys like Jones, Bader, Lil Nog, Machida, Rampage and Evans waiting in the wings, then they are probably going down as one of the greatest fighters ever…. But that its a BIG IF

I think that guys who have won titles in two weight classes in a major promotion HAVE to be first tier. It is an incredibly impressive thing to do.

Hendo, Randy, BJ. They are the only people that have done that thus far. They have to be first tier for that.

With all I’ve written you are really going to manipulate things and make some bizarre case that I am dissing Penn? Now you are pulling out phrases instead of full sentences to misconstrue, forget about discussing whole articles or ideas. Soon it will be a combination of letters.

I’m out. Despite some voices who can argue rationally and respectfully with each other, it’s too much of a game of one-upsmanship here.

It’d be nice if people like you could have real discussions and make real points rather than resorting to condescending sarcasm.

He lost that fight for sure, but the point is, hasn’t been as elite as many other guys.

I think that my standard for elite is higher then some. As i’ve said before, I think the elite status, or level 1 all time greats, or how ever you would like to refer to it as, should be left for those who are almost unbeatable. Guys who go on championship runs for years. Guys who beat contender after contender after contender, even when they are getting their ass kicked (Anderson vs. Chael), or guys who, even when they are facing lackluster opponents (GSP vs. Hardy, Silva vs. Maia or Leites, Chuck vs. Babalu) they still come 100% everytime.

BJ hasn’t gone on a run like that. He hasn’t defended his belt flawlessly against 6 straight opponents. He hasn’t come 100% to every fight(mentally or physically).

So while he could have been, and should have been an elite fighter, to me, he wasnt.

I think that Chuck Liddell is the best LHW of all time, but I wouldn’t put him in the same category as GSP, Fedor or Anderson.

Just because they are the best in a weight class doesn’t automatically put you in as one of the best ever.

If Dominick Cruz wins 3 more fights at BW, giving him a record of 5-0 in title fights, also meaning he’s probably the best BW of all time… does that put him in with the guys mentiond above?

Haters gonna hate.

And sadly, even people who like BJ can’t help but hate on him too. :-/

You’re right. Making Saku second tier is a crime against good sense.

He never ducked anyone. Plus, any argument about Penn is largely disconnected from discussion about Frank. How are they connected? Neither was perfect, but their flaws are completely different.

BTW, Frank Shamrock community interview still coming

I’ve been really hoping you are Nate would write some sort of post about Frank because I WANT to see what you guys do. I’ve never found him to be any more than Bas Rutten, maybe even less, to the sport.