UFC 117 Post-Fight Analysis: Chael Sonnen Proves Opportunity Exists in the UFC's Middleweight Division
by Leland Roling on Aug 9, 2010 2:01 PM EDT
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Wrestling has been said to be the most important base skill a fighter can possess when entering the sport of mixed martial arts. Not only have past champions such as Matt Hughes and current champions like Georges St. Pierre and Brock Lesnar dominated divisions with great wrestling, potential future champions such as Ben Askren have also used its infallible control to win consistently in their progression up the ranks. Brazilian jiu-jitsu can act as a counter to wrestling's dominance, but as we've seen over the years -- wrestlers involved in style clashes such as the Anderson Silva vs. Chael Sonnen title bout on Saturday night have racked up slightly more wins versus their jiu-jitsu counterparts.
But the UFC 117 main event didn't prove that thesis correct. Despite Sonnen's absolute dominance of Silva on the floor for roughly 23 minutes, Silva was able to slip his leg over Chael's head, lock in the triangle choke, and hold on tightly -- pulling off one of the greatest comebacks in UFC history. Wrestling proved to be Silva's ultimate weakness, but Chael's inability to finish from that advantage allowed Silva the opportunity to win.
A lot of debate after the fight revolved around how both fighters implemented their gameplans in this battle. Silva's non-existent takedown defense was a huge oversight in my preview article, and while many fans have been making points that Chael is simply that good of a wrestler -- Silva's defense, stance, and strange 'go for broke' mentality in the striking department in the opening seconds of each round created an awful situation for him.
Let's give credit where credit is due. Sonnen's wrestling and defense against Silva's strikes was phenomenal for most of the fight. He blocked Silva's dynamic attacks on the feet early while simultaneously wading closer and closer for the takedown, eventually pouncing all over Silva as he backed himself into the fence. Silva seemed completely oblivious to the fact that Chael was moving closer to take him down. He almost never leaned into shots to sprawl effectively. He threw almost comical Kung Fu, straight out of Street Fighter II, flying kicks and close range, low percentage attacks, keeping him way off balance when Chael did decide to shoot. He actually got reversed at one point as he was leaning directly into Chael, which was a product of poor form from Silva. It was just awful, and to say that Chael's wrestling is just that great is absurd. Some of the blame has to be put on Silva's poor technical form in his takedown defense.
But that doesn't take way from the fact that this was the first proven wrestler that Silva has faced, possibly ever. Some would argue Dan Henderson is the better wrestler, but Henderson has never been a consistent positional fighter from the top. He loves to knock people out spectacularly, and thus -- his wrestling has suffered. Chael, on the other hand, realizes his stand-up is much weaker than most fighters in the division, and he relies heavily on his best skill to win fights.
With all of that said, I'm not truly focused on what happens next. I believe an immediate rematch could work out great from both a business viewpoint and a fan interest viewpoint, but I'd also like to know where Vitor Belfort sits with the UFC brass as well. In any case, I think Chael's performance hints at another interesting discussion. If Chael loses a rematch, who stands a chance against Silva in the future? More importantly, does Chael's performance create some interest from fighters, who once believed the division's title was out of reach, to think about moving into it?
Chael's performance could unlock the opportunity for a bevy of wrestlers in other divisions to make a transition as well. The once-thought invincible force in Anderson Silva has been exposed, and there are plenty of wrestlers in other weight classes that may be eying a shot at a different crown against an opponent they feel has a huge susceptibility to their primary offensive weapon.
The first man who comes to mind is Jon Fitch. He's claimed that if Josh Koscheck defeats Georges St. Pierre, he may move up in weight. There is also the possibility that Georges St. Pierre beats him a second time, forcing him to move to a different weight class. In either case, Fitch could prove to be a real threat to Silva's belt. He has phenomenal wrestling with the added bonus of solid submission defense. Where Chael failed, Jon Fitch could succeed.
Would light heavyweights drop down to middleweight to take a crack at the belt? The division is littered with solid wrestling talent, and Strikeforce even houses legitimate talent within both divisions. Ronaldo Souza, a fighter who has solid takedowns in combination with phenomenal Brazilian jiu-jitsu, could be a dangerous threat to Anderson Silva.
Obviously, those types of fights actually happening are speculative at this point, but I think Sonnen's dominating performance for those 23 minutes has changed the outlook on the division. Once thought to be completely locked down at the apex of the division, the UFC's middleweight division has had the door swung wide open for opportunity, especially for dominating wrestlers who can't succeed in other divisions.
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GSP / Silva
should be done now before the fight loses all its luster, if it hasn’t already.
I think the “GSP has no chance” argument has been put to bed. The fight should have been made right after Silva/Maia, when both champs were free. I’d still love to see that fight.
Silva could fight Belfort I guess but after that let’s please, please see the super fight.
Yup GSP/Silva should be done next if not Silva/Sonnen. Let Vitor fight Okami. Winner gets shitle tot.
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by xFenixKnightx on Aug 9, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That fight lost it's luster...
when it was suggested. Awful fight
Awful?
You don’t want to see two of the best MMAists ever fight?
Tiger Belt in Joe Son Do
by RearNakedSpank on Aug 9, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
No.
The only appeal is in the novelty. Stylistically, it will be boring. Defensive counterpuncher vs cautious wrestler. There are a million questions about what weight class. A catch weight is stupid. If one guy moves to another weight class and wins, they fuck up all the belts for both classes for the next few years. If AS moves down and loses it completely devalues him and the entire division he fights in. If GSP loses they’ve just traded their least popular champion for their most popular champion. Sure, one of the most popular champs lost his belt…but at least Anderson Silva, that nobody likes, is champion of TWO divisions now! The only high point to Anderson moving down is the fact that the wrestlers at 170 would eat him alive.
There’s about 1000 reasons to not make that fight, but there’s always “CHAMP VS. CHAMP FTW” to nullify them on internet forums.. I have no idea why people aren’t more interested in AS vs. Shogun if they’re so intent on him crossing divisions.
I disagree
I think a catch weight bout would be ideal. Possession of the MW or WW UFC belt is transitory, I don’t see the need in their fight being for a belt. I agree that if it were for a belt it could screw things up for quite a while.
It could be boring. Like you said, I can see AS going into pure counterpunching. But the Sonnen/Silva fight was exciting. GSP is a better wrestler, better striker, better submissions, better sub defense…better at pretty much everything. GSP is admittedly more cautious than Sonnen. The skill these two fighters possess would likely make it enjoyable for the technical aspect even if some would consider it “boring”.
I’m not much of a Silva or GSP fan, but it is clear that they are both going to be in the best p4p discussions for the forseeable future. Having them fight at least once while they are both at or near their prime should happen for the sporting aspect if nothing else.
One of the reasons I like MMA is because I want to see who among two given fighters is better. Even if it is “boring” at least the history books will have a legitimate reason to say either GSP or Silva was “better”.
Finally, it would make a lot of money for the UFC. I think the UFC knows this, so they will make it happen sooner or later. I just hope they don’t wait until one of the two is on an obvious decline and can no longer perform at their best.
Tiger Belt in Joe Son Do
by RearNakedSpank on Aug 9, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
The last part is the part that I have the biggest problem with.
It would be a decent drawing fight, but I’d bet you it doesn’t draw more eyeballs than Penn-GSP did. In fact, I bet you they could do Penn-GSP III (no fucking ideas, BJ!) and sell more tickets than Silva-GSP.
And then afterwards they have to deal with the aftermath of either the unpopular champ beating the popular champ, or the unpopular champ losing to a smaller guy. Either way they’re seriously devaluing a champion for the benefit of a one-time cash in that wouldn’t be nearly as lucrative as most people seem to think.
Jesus.. change your handle to Debbie Downer. What’s wrong with two champions, two of the pound for pound best fighting? Oh, because Andy might win and would be an unpopular champion? But I thought the wrestlers at 70 would eat Ando up? So he won’t be champion long. _;;
by sadface on Aug 9, 2010 11:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I really don't like cross division fights
Unless someone is abandoning the belt and moving out of that division permanently. Otherwise it just shits up that division and leaves it without a champion for an extended period of time. Fuck LHW/HW has a champ out for 6 months and people start talking interim belt, but between fighting across divisions and Anderson’s ability to pull injuries out of his ass every time he has something better to do than fight, if he went and fought at WW the 185 belt would be on hold for a year +
How's it awful?
Do you see GSP’s wrestling equal to Chaels and therefore we’d see the same exact fight, with Anderson on his back for 95% of it? Is GSP’s wrestling better than Chaels and he’d simply pound out Anderson once it hit the mat? Do you factor in the rib injury in your hypothesis of this dream fight? Do you factor in the size difference? What makes it awful? Gsp/silva > belfort/ silva > silva/sonnen. Lets face facts, Sonnen lost fair and square. And while this is black and white, we all know when it comes to the UFC it’s all about the benjamins. so who knows what happens. But I wanna know how it is an emphatic awful fight???
by god-damn long hair on Aug 9, 2010 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I still dont believe there is even slight competition in the MW division
I was rooting fro Chael but upon reflection and after further viewing I have realized that Anderson was in control the most of the time. Forgive me for delving into conspiracy but this is just too good to ignore
So he was waiting
Till the last 3 minutes to get a sub? I’m sorry that is cutting it to close. Sure it will be hard for Chael to last 25 minutes without getting subbed, but Anderson was in deep trouble in that fight. If he let off a good submission options it only because he didn’t realize it was a great option.
U saw the video..clearly it was a beautiful textbook Kimura
He sweep chaels foundation out from under him and has perfect form on the kimura from the ground no less, then transitioned effortlessly into a heal lock but doesn’t decide to roll on it. Chael insulted noguera bjj and anderson was showing how many times he could have ended it.
I feel a great champion has the skills and heart to demonstrate such a feat
He totally let go to transition to the heel hook.
by SilverNBlackZach! on Aug 9, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Right before he lets go, you can see Silva trying to push up in Sonnen's wrist.
There is no give though because Sonnen is holding on to the underside of his leg.
Jacare might have solid takedowns
but so did Maia. Neither of them are wrestlers like Sonnen, a two time Greco Roman national champ. Their skills aren’t comparable and there is no point including any of them in the same takedown/wrestling sentence.
I think what this fight proved beyond everything else is if you come correct against Silva and don’t chicken-shit your way out of a fight (re: Maia, Leites, Franklin 2), and know how to wrestle, you can do a lot better than we all thought.
Chael was fearless enough to make his gameplan work. He was also fearless enough to get caught in a submission, but goddamn that was fun to watch.
Jacare’s wrestling is outstanding for someone with a BJJ background. Maia’s is at best mediocre (at least for an elite MMA fighter) and does not have “solid takedowns”. I think Jacare would have a solid shot at outwrestling Sonnen; unless ko’d he’d also do what he wanted to Silva. Sonnen’s TDD is not elite — Silva took him down and Babalu did as well. Most of Sonnen’s wrestling accomplishments were in Greco-Roman. Being good at GR wrestling doesn’t necessarily translate to having elite TDD as Hendo has shown throughout his career and to a lesser extent a seriously depleted Joe Warren showed against Freire (and Warren won a world championship in 2007). This isn’t to say Sonnen’s offensive MMA wrestling isn’t excellent, because it is.
Jacare is a nightmare matchup for Silva. Tim Kennedy is a scary match up for Silva. The UFC’s MW division is very wrestling poor, which is one of the many reasons why he’s stayed unbeaten as long as he has. There are numerous WWs who should go to MW because they’re much less likely to beat GSP than they are Silva. It’s the misguided belief that their superior wrestling skills will be neutralized by a size disadvantage. This simply isn’t the case.
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Completely agree
Of course, pre-Sonnen the vast majority of replies were either of the lol or insulting variety, but I’ve long said that GSP, Rashad, Shields, Kos or Fitch would all give Anderson huge problems.
I still think GSP or Rashad should move up/move down and take over MW.
Between their striking and MMA wrestling, including their BJJ BBs, either guy would likely win.
Yes, Rashad has somewhat suspect top control, but Anderson is about the last elite fighter capable of exploiting that IMO.
Rashad in particular should make the move as I find it highly unlikely he figures Machida out in their next fight, so if Rashad does beat Rua (a tougher match-up for Rashad than Anderson), Machida will take the title right back from him…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
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by BigDNotDallas on Aug 9, 2010 5:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The problem is...
Nobody gives a crap about 185. A big part of the reason that Franklin was never a huge star, and Silva is still not a huge star, is that 185 lacks interesting opponents. Wanderlei and Belfort are helping bring a bit of luster to the division, but it’s still really shallow. If I’m Rashad, I’ll take big money fights all day with Machida, Shogun, Rampage, Forrest over fighting Marquardt, Okami, Sonnen and Silva.
So its your contention that Rashad would prefer, and his career made more profitable,
By fighting in a weight class where he is unlikely to ever hold a title again, unless briefly if he beats Shogun?
Rashad would have no answer for Machida or Jones (were they to fight), and he would likely be at best even against Lawal or Bader now, and then up and coming guys like future elite Phil Davis to look forward to…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 9, 2010 5:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think you’re underestimating Rashad. I think he’s got the ability to beat Machida if he comes in with the right gameplan. That was during his period where he got really confident with his striking and thought it would carry him to victory always. He learned that lesson the hard way, and you could tell in the Thiago Silva and Rampage fights.
I’d favor Rashad over Machida if that fight happened today. Rashad and Jones train together and their own training partners have said Rashad is the better fighter right now (I’m a huge Jones fan, but he’s still a year or so away from being a worldbeater).
As Anderson Silva proves, being the champion in an unpopular division with nobody to fight doesn’t do anything for you. Rashad Evans, Shogun, Forrest Griffin…hell even Lyoto Machida or Rich Franklin at 205 would all be bigger fights than going down to fight Anderson at 185. And that’s assuming he goes straight to a title shot, and doesn’t have to take a huge step down in exposure to fight a tough guy like Marquardt or Okami or Sonnen.
I think Rashad has the potential to beat anyone else at the top of the LHW division, and I doubt he’ll leave unless he feels too small to compete. And in a division with guys like Shogun and Machida, I doubt he’ll be getting muscled around because he’s too small.
I agree about Rashad and Machida. I think Machida’s TDD is better than Rashad’s offensive wrestling, but my assessments of wrestling ability aren’t always correct and even if someone has superior TDD that doesn’t mean he’ll always defend the takedown every time. Nevertheless, assuming Machida keeps the fight standing, I don’t see Evans beating Machida.
I worry about Rashad’s chin (which should be tested nicely by Shogun) and cardio, which seems adequate but not outstanding, so I wouldn’t count Silva out (which I — and I alone perhaps — might do if Evans had an iron chin and great cardio). His sub-defense does seem solid and having a blackbelt in BJJ from Rolles means, if nothing else, he’s logged thousands of hours of BJJ mat time, which should mean he’s unlikley to be submitted.
Kos should have stayed at MW. Everyone wants to fight at his “natural” weight, reasonably enough, but assuming Kos loses (which is far from a foregone conclusion), he should go to MW.
I’ve long believed GSP would dominate at MW in the UFC. I think the most dangerous man at MW might be Jacare and who knows when if ever he’s coming to the UFC.
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"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
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Askren is the future of the WW division. He would beat (or should more accurately be favored to beat) Fitch if they fought today. (Feel free to flame me for this, but I’ll stand by my prediction.)
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
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Why would Jon Fitch be the first to come to mind? Because he fought on the same card? We do not know how Fitch would move and perform at 185. He would have to get past a Nate Marquardt or a Yushin Okami to get a shot at Anderson. Souza I guess would have a chance but I believe he trains at Black House. The thing is with all this, Silva is not getting any younger. Shinzo Machida said at the age of 35 things get interesting. Unfortunately, Silva’s slick, elusive style isn’t really suited for 35+ fighters. I would say, King Mo would be able to do well against Silva.
Lastly, I’m not for this GSP/Silva fight. The earliest this can come to fruition is what 1.5 years? So Anderson will be 37? GSP may have one fight at 185 before fighting Anderson so possible 37.5? It would be smart on UFC’s part because then GSP will be a draw after this.
King Mo says he can cut to 185.
Also, GSP is fighting Koscheck in December. GSP has stated that he wants to properly put on weight if he wants to fight at 185. You can’t do that in a few months. Yes, he has been doing that ever since after his Alves fight, but he still has more work to do. So 7-8 months from now is most likely out of the question.
Because Fitch has stated his willingness to head to 185 if specific circumstances happen. I don’t think Marquardt or Yushin have it, to be honest.
King Mo was a thought, but I’m not exactly sure if he wants to cut that much weight.
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by Leland Roling on Aug 9, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand. But do you think Jon Fitch would get past a Nate Marquardt or a Yushin Okami before fighting Anderson?
I wouldn’t put it out of the realm of possibility at all. Obviously, he’d have to add muscle, but it wouldn’t surprise me at all.
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by Leland Roling on Aug 9, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
The first man who comes to mind is Jon Fitch.
The first name that came to my mind was Rashad Evans…
If he loses to Rua he may consider a drop in weight class. Who know…
by truck on Aug 9, 2010 1:47 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Rashad is also a consideration, fair enough.
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by Leland Roling on Aug 9, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I always thought it would be an interesting fight for the same reasons that Rashad / Rua is interesting. The appeal of a change in weight may have just gone way up for Rashad and a loss against Rua may increase it again. Lot of people talk about how he is a small LHW.
This was my first thought as well.
I don’t think the weight cut would be that hard for him, and he has proven his wrestling is more than good enough to get the job done.
by PetrozellisJab on Aug 9, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
slow down everyone
I’m not for making excuses & chapel did what no man before him (even those who have a w over silva) but if you rewatch the fight at the end of the 1st you can plainly see silva motion to his ribs. Which leads be to believe they were a problem during the fight and adversely affected his performance (hence the bad technical form rarely seen). This is why I favor a rematch to see if things play out differently or similar to Saturday night
chael not chapel....
Damn predictive type
exactly
And since it looks like Anderson is taking the rest of the yr off to heal, you can have it headline the superbowl show
by liquidation247 on Aug 9, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Truth be told--
I thought it was odd that Silva wasn’t using his hip more from his back. He seemed content to hang on and look for a sub when/if it presented itself. He never really tried to hip escape and stand up or change his position. Not to take anything away from Sonnen. He did a good job of passing Silva’s guard, but when Silva had Sonnen in his open guard, spider guard or butterfly guard, he didn’t really try to create space and improve his position. I don’t understand that.
Just as a sidenote, I’m not sure how often this has been stated, but Silva set up that choke with strikes from the bottom. He cracks Sonnen with a right hand that surprises Chael, who then ducks down and covers up with his left hand (because his right wrist is being controlled), protecting himself from Silva’s swinging elbows. It really is a stellar performance, and one definitely deserving of a Judo Chop.
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by Ephemeral Artery on Aug 9, 2010 2:10 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Two Things
I can’t believe i’m actually thinking Fitch would have a very good shot against the Spider.
Considering the work Chael did, how is Silva going to contend with GSP’s all-world wrestling and take down ability?
What Chael Sonnen and Shogun have in common
Sonnen v. Silva and Shogun v. Machida (I and II) demonstrate that sometimes fighters get the almost mythical auras of invincibility and guys begin to fight them scared or perhaps too cautiously is a better way to put it. Anderson Silva and too a lesser extent Machida (remember Joe Rogan talking about “welcome to the Machida era”) both appeared to be invincible.
Look how cautiously Evans fought Machida and compare that to Shogun’s aggression. Look at Forrest Griffin cautiously circling Silva (although not for very long!). Compare that to Sonnen’s throw caution to the wind approach. Is Chael Sonnen really any better of an mma fighter than Griffin? I don’t think so. It was the aggression that made the difference.
Sonnen, while a fairly one-dimensional old-school wrestler, is most definitely a better MMA fighter than Griffin IMO.
Griffin has exactly 1 win over someone who could be considered elite or near-elite when the fought, and that’s Rampage.
Moreover, Evans, who would have a good shot against Anderson, and a somewhat good shot against Rua (top control/sweep issue), does not have the skillset to overcome Machida and his elite TDD and elite takedown ability from the clinch.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 9, 2010 5:54 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
This is a great point. The way Chael waded in against Silva made a big difference in allowing him to get takedowns. And Silva definitely looks a whole lot more beatable now than he did prior to 117. The next challenger, whoever it is, will go in a lot less intimidated.
I consider myself a softcore fan.
I don't know if it'll happen before Silva retires
But an interesting fight I thought of was Silva vs. King Mo
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Chael Sonnen
has some underrated striking does he, he has now out struck Anderson/Okami/Nate/ on the feet
i love how he constantly moves forward
The problem with middleweight is...
There’s not much incentive to be there. Most guys at middleweight are just as tall as LHW but with less muscle. The smaller guys cut down to 170. If you’re big enough to fight LHW, why not go into the big money division and fight the much much much more popular opponents? Or if you’re too small for LHW, diet/cut down to 170 again for much more popular fights.
Middlweight is the land of misfit fighters, really, and it’s showing with one guy being on top of the division so long. The opportunity is ripe for a strong MMA wrestler to go take on the division…but it’s telling that even a guy like Shields is wanting to go down to 170. Would you rather fight Kampmann or Mark Munoz? GSP or Anderson Silva? Koscheck or Okami? There’s a lot more name recognition at 170.
I really have to see Anderson’s next fight because he just looked horrible and did not look like Anderson. I said it in another post but where was his defense standing and his head movement? Where was his elusiveness and lateral movement? Where was his jab and his distancing? I honestly thought that Anderson would utilize the jab more to establish distance in order to fend off the takedowns from Sonnen, but Anderson was fighting wildly which is very “un-Anderson-like.” He was caught off balance so many times.
On the ground, he was not putting his feet on Sonnen’s hips or trying to push off. He seemed content on his back and in the closed guard. The ref was not going to stand them back up because Sonnen was staying busy.
I’m honestly hoping that this was an anamoly in Anderson because I have seen him do much better. I don’t know if he is getting old or was just caught off guard when Sonnen rushed him in the first round.
My friend is arguing that GSP is a better striker than Anderson SIlva because Sonnen was outstriking Anderson, and GSP is a better striker than Sonnen. The thing is that I have seen Anderson perform much better than he did against Sonnen, so I am hoping that Anderson could answer some of these questions in his next fight.
This is my gripe with the cage...
it inherently prefers wrestlers both with respect to takedowns and ground control. Bring on the hate.
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