Was Anderson Silva Too Old or Too Injured Against Chael Sonnen at UFC 117?
by Nate Wilcox on Aug 9, 2010 11:12 AM EDT
in MMA News
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Sergio Non asks the old question:
The 35-year-old Silva might be feeling his age. He was caught by punches that he has dodges in the past, and his counterstrikes seemed to be slower than usual.
Quickness and speed are the first things to go for most athletes, especially by the time they hit their mid-30s. Randy Couture and Bernard Hopkins are rarities in combat sports -- most fighters peak physically before 35, particularly below the heavyweight division.
Silva afterward said he was suffering from ribs injured in training, but even that suggests that he's getting older. He didn't seem to suffer any serious wounds during his time with Chute Boxe Academy, which was renowed for the brutality of its training. But as the aches and pains of regular sparring and practice become harder to take with age, the vulnerability to injury increases and the ability to recover decreases.
Our own Jonathan Snowden worried about this before the fight:
I worry about a fighter like Anderson Silva. He reminds me quite a bit of boxer Roy Jones. Both men rely on a physical edge, hyper speed reflexes and reaction time that makes it look like their opponents are moving in slow motion. At some point, that kind of fighter is bound to fall of a cliff. When it happens, it won't be pretty. I hope we aren't there yet with the 35 year old Silva.
That's the thing about amazing athletes like Anderson Silva. It's always just a matter of time before they fall from their peak. That's why it's incumbent upon Dana White and the UFC to spend his precious time wisely. Book Anderson Silva vs GSP while you can Dana White, not when it's too late.
The UFC has already wasted several precious years of Anderson's peak with Patrick Cote, Thales Leites and Demian Maia. While all three of those guys are really really good fighters, none of them had clearly earned a title fight and none of them were fights fans wanted to see.
The moral of the story, once again, is always book the best fight possible. Quit screwing around Dana, listen to Fagan and give us Anderson vs GSP.
Oh yeah, but give us that Anderson vs Chael rematch first.
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People are really reaching for answers why Chael was able to dominate
It comes down to:
1) Chael is a great wrestler
2) Anderson sucks at wrestling
3) Anderson was injured
He just beat down Forrest less than a year ago, he got “old” that fast? There were points in the fight where Silva looked like the “old” Silva avoiding punches with just head movement.
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 9, 2010 10:27 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Anderson sucks at wrestling?
3 for 7 on takedowns sounds pretty good for Anderson if Chael is such a great wrestler. :-)
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Just because Chael is awesome, doesn't mean Anderson sucks
Did we not learn anything from Okami/Munoz?
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Bad example Munoz does have terrible MMA wrestling.
I was saying as much befort the Okami fight. He also struggled to take down Grove.
Let me be more clear:
There was a lot of talk about Munoz/Okami that Okami wouldn’t be able to stay on his feet because Chael had been so successful with his takedowns. Does Okami’s wrestling suck because Chael took him down with ease? Cause he looked pretty good against Munoz, and if Okami ACTUALLY sucked, Munoz would have wiped the floor with him. Yes?
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Nah, I wasn't clear.
Let’s hug it out. :-P
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Bro-mance!
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Whoa there!
I’m a one-bro man!
(Sorry Subo! We’ll always have Taco Bell!)
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DAMN
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I think the proof is in the pudding. If I remember correctly, doesn’t somebody have a little S-10 on the way?
I get more rec's than a Toyota!
Lol... Yep...
Baby on the way proves my thoughts on the matter… I don’t mess around I straight up impregnate people.
I'm out.
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Look, I don't mind the idea of having kids
But I watched Arnold in Twins, and that’s not a pretty look.
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I'VE HEARD THAT BEFORE
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by Derek Suboticki on Aug 9, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Damn, I always forget about his temper.
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His offensive wrestling was very impressive for someone with a busted rib. His defensive wrestling was not so impressive.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
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by The Darkness on Aug 9, 2010 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
He stuffed 4 takedowns from Chael.
Do we have to go over how decorated a wrestler Chael is?
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He stopped a few shots that Chael didn’t set up and took from about 8 feet away. i didn’t see anything that impressive. Chael was an all-american for one year in college (and thus wrestling folkstyle) and then he went on to win the university national champtionship in Greco-Roman and made the US Olympic team as an alternate in Greco. I think he won a silver in world university championship in GR too somewhere around 7 or 8 years ago, but I couldn’t verify it. He wasn’t using his GR skills other than to dirty box a little in the first round. He was beating Silva with freestyle type takedowns. There are a ton of people with better credentials than Sonnen in freestyle and folkstyle. This isn’t to say that Sonnen’s not a very good wrestler (especially in terms of his MMA wrestling), but the MW division is generally pretty weak and is definitely not full of good wresters, Silva included, so people might be slightly overstating how great of a wrestler Chael is. That said, he’s been undeniably effective his entire career at wrestling in MMA. Sometimes outside credentials don’t matter as much as how you apply it come fight time.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Aug 9, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Regardless:
There is no shame in being taken down by Chael Sonnen, and it absolutely isn’t evidence that a fighter’s “wrestling sucks.”
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I said that his defensive wrestling was “not that impressive”. Whom are you quoting?
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Aug 9, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Black Lesnar above, the person I was responding to when you commented.
Did you buy another mouse without a scroll wheel? What did I tell you about that?! :-P
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OK, but you shouldn’t try picking a fight with me by quoting something I didn’t say. Trust me; you don’t want to mess with me — I’m an armchair warrior!!! lol
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Aug 9, 2010 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Well of course not.
I’m just trying to make my point consistent: Anderson is nowhere near the best wrestler in MMA. But he’s also far from the worst, and to say that he “sucks” would be a mistake.
So I think we agree?
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Yes
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Aug 9, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Sonnen is right up there with GSP when it comes to takedowns
Sonnen actually is a takedown machine. GSP is far better at passing guard and avoiding submissions though.
Crap, do we need a P4P MMA Wrestling list now too?
:-P
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Dude got taken down by a gassed Travis Lutter
Anderson’s TD defense isn’t garbage but it’s clearly the weakest part of his game.
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
Weakest part of his awesome game?
Sure.
But what I’m responding to is, " Anderson sucks at wrestling" which is pretty clearly not true. He’d out-wrestle any of the armchair fighters on this site, no?
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Sure.
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
" Anderson sucks at wrestling" which is pretty clearly not true
But is it true in relation to other elite MMA fighters?
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Aug 9, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Ding.
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Ding?
A yes or a no would have been preferable. I was actually asking a genuine question, as I am very new to this sport and know very little about it.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Aug 9, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, I was suggesting that Anderson's win over Min Ding
…the star of the Beijing wrestling team in their epic 2002 bout was clear evidence of his prowess as a wrestling phenom.
I remember it like it was yesterday – Anderson wearing his traditional spider-costume, Ding all geared up in a mecha-suit. From the first second they stepped on the mat, you could feel the crowd of Orion IV tense in anticipation of what was to come…
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Yeah I get that...
But I, being a new fan, do not actually know who this Okami person is.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Aug 9, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Wikipedia is your friend.
And since truck answered your question, I don’t know why you’d mind my comment at all.
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Okami is currently ranked the # 8 MW on the consensus rankings
He is an elite MW and has fought both Anderson and Sonnen.
He scored a disqualification win over Silva
Here is the video
and he got outwrestled and held down by Sonnen
Here is the video
Marquardt also fought both fighters and is currently ranked 3rd
look at how
comparable athletes age. baseball history is full of hall of famers who bat over .300 in their 2nd to last season then drop off the table and hit under .200 in their final spin.
did you follow the fall of Roy Jones Jr?
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Give Sonnen Credit
2 Articles now not showing Sonnen the Credit he deserves, all fighters carry injuries whilst Anderson Ortiz Silva had an injury im sure Sonnen came in with one too, its part of the training.
Sonnen beat a hole through his face for 23 minutes, purely dominated him.
Props to Sonnen
it's one thing
to give the guy credit (of which he certainly deserves) for dominating Silva for 95% of the fight and for providing us w/pre-fight entertainment and a sick performance in-fight… but he still LOST.
“Sonnen beat a hole through his face for 23 minutes”.
Did you see the post fight interviews. Silva’s face was clean: no cuts nor bruises. While Sonnen’s was battered. So Sonnen either 1) didn’t connect any susbtantial blows on Silva for 23 minutes, OR 2) he punched like a 5yr old girl for 23 minutes.
You believe it's "age", Nate?
Semper Fi
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 9, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
I think a fighter like Silva
whose game is based on speed is a ticking clock. 35 is pretty dang old for an athlete. And the way speed and reflexes go, they go fast. Literally overnight.
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by Nate Wilcox on Aug 9, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This
CANNOT be stated enough. Not saying it has happened, but none of should be surprised when it does.
The RJJ comparison is inevitable and well placed.
Well, this is also what happened to Chuck in a lot of ways as well.
He’s also a counter-puncher who relied on his speed. The difference being that he also took one too many to the chin.
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Yes
He can become older that fast. He’s still a great fighter, but as he becomes older he loses his speed and quickness.
"Dodger fans aren’t happy when foul balls get into their section, because it interferes with their playing with the beachball"- Mike Krukow
its all about injuries
athletes get hurt more the more they age and find it harder and harder to come back from them
look at ladainian tomlinson, he was the best running back in the league just a few years back till injuries really started slowing him down and now hes backing up shonn greene whos a solid player but nowhere near the skill level tomlinson was at
the deteriaration of skills happens very fast, im not saying silvas done but the more we hear about him being hurt the less chance we’ll ever see him at his best again
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
Too bad you ruined it by reaching on the the third one, Silva wasn’t hurt he was just exposed. Why is it so hard for people to accept that he was just too mythologized by some, he was never the untouchable monster that many here foolishly claimed.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
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by Nightwhistler on Aug 9, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think Dana wants to make that fight because he thinks GSP will lose. So if he does make it happen, it might be better to do it later.
Of course, Anderson’s TD defense is now a real question mark following the Sonnen fight.
i think its actually more that he’s afraid of the possibility of Anderson losing, regardless of whether or not Anderson is more likely to win.
-If GSP lost to Andy, it doesn’t really fuck anything up because, well, GSP was going up in weight (which would be the case because Anderson ain’t going to 170. the fight would either be 178 or 185)
-But if Anderson loses to GSP, it could essentially invalidate the MW division, because the 185 champ can’t even beat the 170 champ
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Aug 9, 2010 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Book Silva vs Sonnen 2
Book Okami vs Belfort to face the winner
If Silva survives that:
Book Silva vs GSP, no excuses unless you can legitimately book Silva vs Wand in a super fight. FWIW, Anderson tools Wand and GSP can come next.
Anderson vs. Wand is a bad fight
For starters, what has Wand done to earn a shot? Secondly, does anyone see that fight being remotely competitive?
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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According to my schedule, Wand vs Anderson would be around this time next year
lots could happen. It was the only fight that I could think of that could get in the way is all. I don’t think it will, but if Wand can beat Leben and Marquardt he could earn a title shot. A resurgent Wand vs Anderson for the title would have some appeal.
Ugh
If that happens, I might actually cry. Wanderlei doesn’t need to be knocked into a coma. Again.
...like young thieves in a glowing orchard, loosely jacketed against the cold and ten thousand worlds for the choosing.
- C. McCarthy
They aren't going to leave a healthy Silva shelved until March either though
That is the quickest that GSP will be available. Silva will probably fight again before the year is over.
Hell no
good god not this crap again. not only would Silva beat GSP, so would Chael and just about every elite middleweight out there. This is the fight game and size actually does matter. Silva’s knees would be up in GSP’s face before he could attempt a single takedown.
I would pick Silva too, but enough people believe otherwise to justify the fight.
If there was time to build to the fight, I think GSP vs Bisping would be an interesting matchup, but with Silva’s age this can’t happen. If you are gonna make Silva / GSP, you gotta do it ASAP.
If Anderson loses to Chael in the rematch, how are they going to promote GSP vs. Silva?
Heck, there’s a very real chance that Kos beats GSP.
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that's why they should've made the gsp vs anderson fight
a year ago or more.
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I disagree.
I’m just not much of a fan of all this jumping around between weight classes. GSP is a welterweight. Anderson is a middleweight. I’m already very entertained by the fights in their own divisions.
And here’s something else: half the argument for GSP/Silva was that there were no challenges for Anderson at middleweight. How’s that looking after Chael held him down for 22 minutes?
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I agree!
Kos is a GOOD matchup for GSP. I honestly think we will see another matchup like the one on Saturday between Silva and Sonnen.
Semper Fi
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 9, 2010 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Kos won't dominate GSP like that...
Kos doesn’t have a clear advantage in any one area over GSP like Silva did. The wrestling could potentially be back and forth, and Kos always has KO potential. It should be a good fight.
Fitch was saying that Kos didn't even train wrestling AT ALL in the run-up to the GSP fight
If we believe him when he says that, and when he claims that Kos is the best wrestler in MMA, Kos could be a lot more trouble for GSP this time around.
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The trend says tha GSP will be in trouble. BJ, Fedor, Silva and now it’s GSP’s turn ;)
"...ride life straight to perfect laughter,
it's the only good fight there is."
by dancingChicken on Aug 9, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Try imagining Buffer saying:
“….and NEW welterweight champion of the world: JOSH KOSCHECK!”
Makes your tummy get all sick, doesn’t it?
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Sorry.
But stranger things have happened. I hear Chael Sonnen got the better of Anderson Silva on the feet the other day!
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That was all special effects and trick camera angles. Silva was actually executing a takedown in the first, but they made it look like he was caught by Sonnen. Also, the old upside-down camera gag, made it look like Sonnen controlled the fight, when in actuality, Silva was on top almost the whole time. Damn you James Cameron!
Hell just froze over after you alluded to Sonnen positively.lol
You bump your head?
No. You're not paying attention.
I’m sorry that you can’t keep the things that I’m saying straight, but if you’re going to have to try harder. Maybe you can get some hooked on phonics or something.
Go read this comment. You should have read it already, since it was in response to you. Maybe you did and can’t remember who wrote it.
Why you can’t tell jokes form serious comments is beyond me, but I’m pretty sure that it’s related to why you can’t tell that I’m just one person.
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There you go again
being arrogant(hooked on phonics). You got issues. I put a comma in there by mistake. You know what mistakes are right? It’s good to see you’re not quite OBSESSING on Mr. Sonnen. Something positive. Once again your aggressive keyboarding is boring. Get a hobby that calms you down like guitar or something. Unplug.
I'm not making fun of you for a comma.
I’m making fun of you because you can’t seem to read the things that I’m saying and understand what they mean. It’s hard to have a conversation when one person is just reflexively posting responses to what you can only assume are what they wish you would have seen.
Seriously: work on your reading comprehension.
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I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
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Also: learn to take a joke.
You don’t see anybody else here getting butt-hurt by my comments. Why do you think that is?
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I'd rather see Kos than Sonnen
I was so upset that I was shaking going into round five of that Silva / Sonnen fight.
That was some scary shit. I didn't get to sleep until almost 3AM EST.
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Ditto!
I actually jumped for joy when SIlva pulled the sub in the 5th…
… And Marines don’t jump for anything— especially “joy”.
Haha!
Semper Fi
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 9, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
You do it...
… But, smiling is a “no-no”.
Semper Fi
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 9, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
you left out Brock
"Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherf**ker" - Jules Winnfield
"A good word that I got from the Mike Tyson Documentary... I'm going to absolutley decimate this motherf**ker, I haven't been in the dictionary to see what it actually means but I'm guessing it's going to be something in the way of just killing a motherf**ker." -Paul Daley (on the definition of Decimate)
by WeaponElDeem on Aug 9, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I meant p4p quartet. Brock fits as a champion but Shogun would spoil the theory.
"...ride life straight to perfect laughter,
it's the only good fight there is."
by dancingChicken on Aug 9, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Gotcha
"Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherf**ker" - Jules Winnfield
"A good word that I got from the Mike Tyson Documentary... I'm going to absolutley decimate this motherf**ker, I haven't been in the dictionary to see what it actually means but I'm guessing it's going to be something in the way of just killing a motherf**ker." -Paul Daley (on the definition of Decimate)
by WeaponElDeem on Aug 9, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
He could. Anything is possible, but I don't see him holding GSP down like that all night.
It could easily be competitive on the feet and on the ground though and Kos has kill shot power in his hands which is a great equalizer.
I believe that Fitch said it. It was only in the last couple weeks.
Whether it’s true or not – shit, I don’t know. Every time I try to talk about wrestling in MMA, everybody changes their mind about who was good, is good, or is getting good and pretends that they never said what they just wrote.
One minute Dan Henderson is this great wrestler, the next minute everyone is saying that he was never any good in MMA. Then Okami is supposed to be a great MMA wrestler until he faces Sonnen and it turns out he was never any good.
The only thing I can be sure of is that the kind of people who think they know which are the good wrestlers in MMA are all a pack of indecisive little girls that aren’t worth listening to.
So sure. Fitch is as qualified to judge this shit as anybody. Why not believe him?
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Actually, you can ask the boss man if you like:
Luke interviewed him on MMA Nation:
“He has improved by leaps and bounds just for the simple fact that when they first fought he wasn’t doing any wrestling. He had it in his head that no one was a better wrestler than him and no one would be able to take him down. He didn’t train in wrestling for that fight at all. That’s changed a great deal. In the past year or two we’ve focused on wrestling a great deal. That’s gonna be a huge factor. It was a concern that we all had. It took a couple losses for him to realize that he still had to work on wrestling. As far as straight wrestling, he’s the best in the division. As far as MMA wrestling, he and Georges St. Pierre are at the top.”
[Though I said, “in MMA” and he says “in the division” so you’ll have to forgive me for that slip, though I still think he had said “in MMA” in another interview.]
Good enough?
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I didn't say he would dominate though?
I said we’d see another exciting fight.
I think the fight might go 5 rounds and end up being anyone’s contest.
Semper Fi
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 9, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
They aren't going to leave a healthy Silva shelved until March either though
That is the quickest that GSP will be available. Silva will probably fight again before the year is over.
Let's fucking hope so.
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Kos is the 2nd best WW in the UFC, in spite of his idiotic tendency to abandon his MMA wrestling game
Frankly, given some of the dubious choices he has made in past fights, I would not have been suprised in the slightest had he chosen to stand with Daley and gotten KTFO.
But at the end of the day, he is the only true threat to GSP at this point, aside from others’ “puncher’s chance.”
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 9, 2010 11:51 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
aside from others’ "puncher’s chance."
Well, after Thiago got decisioned by Fitch, there’s no one that would have “puncher’s chance”. Unless Shields will mutate.
"...ride life straight to perfect laughter,
it's the only good fight there is."
by dancingChicken on Aug 9, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Right - what I fear at WW
Is a Shields – Fitch fight where neither can get the other down and it turns into a 3-round stand-up “war”…or GSP is hurt and those 2 fight a 5-round interim “war”…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 9, 2010 12:09 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Sonnen can have that rematch, after stringing together a couple of wins.
I’d rather see Belfort vs Anderson, that fight will be nuts.
"Quit screwing around Dana, listen to Fagan and give us Anderson vs GSP."
Hear, hear.
If the UFC waits too long, Silva’s not going to realistically be able to challenge GSP. At least, if they make the fight now, there’s a sizable group of people who think Silva will win.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
I think this just had alot to do with alot of folks on here, and possibly Silva himself, underestimating Sonnen. It happens. Hell, I didn’t think Sonnen had any chance in hell either. I thought 25 minutes was just too long for Sonnen to go without getting knocked out or submitted, but the dude almost made it. He also proved that Silva is not untouchable…the longer Silva sticks around, the more likely someone is going to get to him, that’s just inevitable.
Is it me?
But I want to see GSP vs. Silva before a rematch with Sonnen.
"Dodger fans aren’t happy when foul balls get into their section, because it interferes with their playing with the beachball"- Mike Krukow
I agree with you 100% Nate about booking the Anderson-GSP fight before its too late
But why do you think the UFC should book a Sonnen rematch?
by devious1 on Aug 9, 2010 10:41 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
three reasons
1) there’s demand
2) it was a great great fight
3) sonnen proved he’s a very real threat to silva
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Once he can prove that he:
a) knows how to tap properly, and
b) watches that GracieUniversity video on what he did wrong,
…then he gets the shot.
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I don't think we'd see the same result
or type of fight. Whether it’s b/c Anderson was hurt, b/c he had underestimated Chael’s ability to strike and/or keep him down, or it was b/c Anderson overestimated his own declining (not saying they are but it’s definitely possible by what we witnessed) abilities, it’s obvious that he’d have to come in w/a completely different gameplan in a rematch, which could result in a recipe for utter disaster for Chael.
Chael is what Chael is and we saw him at his very best and would likely see the same exact Chael in Sonnen/Silva 2.
I would still pick Silva in a rematch.
It would be nice to see him put the fight away a lot quicker and see how much of a factor the injury and possibly taking Chael lightly was. Also, Sonnen fought his ass off, possibly the fight of his life, could he replicate it? Could he do better?
same - would take Silva too.
good point about Chael – very tough to replicate that type of performance against a guy like Silva.
I agree, but for slightly different reasons.
1) Because of how the fight went, Silva / Sonnen II is the biggest fight available. It is bigger than Silva / Belfort now.
2) GSP is four months away from fighting Koscheck, and it will be at least seven or eight months before he is ready to fight Silva. Silva needs a fight before that.
3) I GSP loses, they will have kept Silva shelved for no reason.
23 minutes of an ass whooping isn’t reason enough?
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
people keep goin there..
But as much as Sonnen dominated, he did get dropped standing, he did get hurt and cut open from Silva’s bottom game, and then he got subbed. Outside of the first round he may have dominated positionally and landed some solid GnP, but he wasn’t hurting Andy too much, even though he was obviously winning.
I think Sonnen was hurt more in the 4th, and with the Sub than Andy was all night.
by Broke Lesnar on Aug 9, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
No rematch thanks.
Give us GSP vs AS!
I don’t really see the logic for all this talk of an immediate rematch. No controversial decision or stoppage here. Silva passed the test, let him move on.
I wonder why did Silva let go that kimura
He didn’t even try to crank it.
"...ride life straight to perfect laughter,
it's the only good fight there is."
I'm Buying the Anderson Injured Story
First off something had to be up because he looked awful against Chael compared to how sharp he looked against Daia
Secondly, no rematch right way…when was the last time a fighter was finished and got a rematch right away…Shogun Machida and BJ Edgar both went to the Cards
And finally, Vetor needs to fight Chael or somebody in the middleweight division before gettin a title shot
by SkyIsTheLimit21 on Aug 9, 2010 10:42 AM EDT reply actions
Sylvia/AA 2 & 3
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Aug 9, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I just checked
Sylvia and AA were the only fighters on the UFC roster in the HW division at that time. True story.
"Deserve's got nothing to do with it." -Will Munny, a known thief and murderer, a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition.
belfort is a horrifying matchup for silva
if he doesnt have his spiderman like reflexes and ability to dodge punches with his hands at his waist i see anderson getting tagged repeatedly
if sonnen can connect on silva belfort could potentially devestate him
however if silva is at full health and at his full potential i could see belfort getting tooled on the feet its really a very very interesting matchup
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
Patrick Cote vs Anderson Silva
Why do people continue to harp on the bad matching making concerning UFC 90 Silva vs. Cote?
Cote was on a winning streak AND a replacement for the injured Okami. The show must go on, people would have been complaining if the title match was scrapped altogether and start talking about horrible cards.
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VEe is ANIMated!
I agree
And I feel the same way about Maia and Leites. There weren’t some great contenders just sitting there that Anderson hadn’t faced already.
Just because the fights weren’t exciting doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have been made.
"Deserve's got nothing to do with it." -Will Munny, a known thief and murderer, a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition.
by PapaBumpants on Aug 9, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Another note,
The same thing goes for Maia . . . he was a replacement fight.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 9, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Umm If Anderson’s ribs were injured, it would have been very hard and painful to use the movement that normally would to dodge punches. If his ribs were truely injured, then I’m not surprised at all that he couldn’t use his normal movement to dodge strikes.
If you don't like the effect, don't produce the cause.
360Gamertag:Flipadelph1a
oops, meant to reply to this comment . . . see comment below.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 9, 2010 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
"If his ribs were truely injured"
- Pat Barry said he broke his hands and foot. Some people did not believe him although he surprisingly stop using his most effective weapons. I’m not sure if the photos of Barry in a cast helped? Note, Cro-Cop did not believe he broke his hand.
- Urijah Faber broke his hands during a fight against Mike Brown. It was very obvious, people believed it. What a warrior, he fought with a broken hand.
- Couture’s arm was broken during his Gonzaga fight. For the most part people believed him because he’s a warrior.
- Shogun gives Forrest Griffin a decent 1 round fight before succumbing to defeat in the 3rd round. He has surgery after their fight. People question him, his run in Pride and his cardio.
- Silva says he injured his ribs. He doesn’t fight like we’re used to seeing him fight and gets dominated. And many fans are questiong the legitimacy of his injury? Do fighters need to provide photo evidence or medical reports?
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VEe is ANIMated!
I think it’s weak, regardless if its true or not, for a fighter to start making excuses immediately in a post fight interview.
I also find it amusing how some fans(not you in particular) are so willing to defend fighters when they said they were injured or use some other excuse about how they performed and yet blast others when they do the same, or don’t even come out and make excuses Like Anderson did but bury them claiming they are.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
How about Chael making excuses in the pre-fight interviews?
Is that also weak?
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what excuses did he make?
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
He said that he'd had a stomach flu starting the week before...
…and that he was sick through the beginning of last week.
And Matt Lindland seems to be hinting that he may have had other injuries as well.
And that’s not to mention the terror of knowing that there’s some hispanic guy out there impersonating him! :-)
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Lol that hispanic line cracked me up. Chael is one interesting fella!
He was not making any excuses for how he fought or why he lost after the fight. He did not say he was sick during the fight either. He gave Anderson all the credit in the world and was very classy at the post fight conference. And all Lindland said was every fighter fights with injuries, including Chael, including Anderson.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
Well yeah - because he came out making excuses BEFORE the fight.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
I think you’re reaching there.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
Really?
So he didn’t start announcing his illness before the fight?
You disagree with the actual events that happened?
CHAEL? IS THAT YOU?!?
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He has hispanic spelling… ;)
"...ride life straight to perfect laughter,
it's the only good fight there is."
by dancingChicken on Aug 9, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Did he come out and say he was sick during the fight? And lets say he was making excuses, whether it was before or after, that doesn’t change the fact Anderson was?
I don’t like it when any fighter does, regardless of who they are
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
No, he didn't need to tell us what he told every interviewer the week before the fight.
Shit, talking to Rogan, the only thing going through his mind was, “fucking triangles – how do they work?”
My point is that if you’re going to bitch about Anderson doing it, please take a moment to hate on Chael as well.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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Chael shouldn’t make excuses. Happy now? Don’t let the Chael hate get you worked up
And Anderson should not makes excuses.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
Hey, look around - I've been bitching about Anderson's excuses as much as anyone.
I just want parity.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Read my reply above!
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
He was talking about a flu or something but he said right after that statement he welcomes the adversity. That’s why he fights. He said this to Ariel Helwani.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 9, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
He didn’t make excuses, he made a claim to having been sick in the week leading up to the fight. He then went on to say though that fighters always have something wrong with them and fighting with them is what makes them fighters.
Even if he were somehow meaning it as a defense for poor performance he completely negated it by the performance he put on. Then followed it up by giving Anderson all the props he could and repeatedly stating that ‘he’ came up short and there was nothing else to it.
That’s a different story than putting on a miserable performance and immediately claiming a injury that hadn’t even been rumored to that point. A injury which has a moving date to when it actually happened.
Check out the points I was making about this earlier.
At this point in his UFC career, Silva has never showed a knack for when and how to make statements to the media or fans. He’s one of the fighters that can use a PR coach because he obviously doesn’t know what will go over well with American audiences.
I simply believe Silva said the SAME thing, he just can not articulate it as well as Chael Sonnen. He gave Sonnen his props. He said the show must go on, he decided to fight and the injury is in the past.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 9, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I hear you. Personally I’ll give any fighter the benefit of the doubt whether they’re bitching or not. Some fighters are unfortunately chastised for openning their mouths about injuries like Tim Sylvia, but he looked really limited against Randy Couture but firing on all cylinders against Rodrigo Noguiera.
Big Nog looked limited against Frank Mir with a serious staph infection that Joe Silva and Dana was aware of but incidentally he still looked limited against Cain Velasquez.
Was Silva making excuses? Nah, not really. To paraphrase, I was injured but the show must go on. That’s in the past. In the end, he won. He’s not making excuses for losing to Chael Sonnen because he won. He was explaining why his performance was off.
I should mention that I am an Anderson Silva fan and most definitely a Chael Sonnen fan.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 9, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
I think it’s fair to give fighters the benefit of the doubt, but fans cannot have it both ways.
My beef is I think Anderson chose a poor time to come out and say he was injured. It comes across as making excuses and discrediting your opponent, especially when no one was asking him why he performed the way he did.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
At this point in his UFC career, Silva has never showed a knack for when and how to make statements to the media or fans. He’s one of the fighters that can use a PR coach because he obviously doesn’t know what will go over well with American audiences.
I listened to both pre and post fight press conferences, I didn’t hear him discredit or dismiss Sonnen’s skills and performance.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 9, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Soares definitely hurts his image more than he he helps him
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
Soares and Anderson Silva are in a no-win situation when it comes to the fans. They’re are already many fans that seriously believe Soares manipulates and influences Joe Silva’s matching making and Dana White’s decisions.
Not to mention the belief that Silva is ducking his opponents. I can’t wait to hear that he’s afraid of and will duck Chael Sonnen.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 9, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Silva is his own worst enemy at times. I think Chael Sonnen is the best thing to ever happen to him on many levels.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
Exactly.
Chael Sonnen was telling the truth when he was offering his assessment of Silva’s replies during the conference call. This is the Chael Sonnen show. Silva doesn’t know or care about selling the a fight like Ali, Frank Mir, Rampage or Brock Lesnar.
Silva often really have nothing to say except the usual automatic cliche responses. A reporter could lob him the perfect pitch and you will probably get nothing in return. He is kind of bordering on a Tim Sylvia level because even when Sylvia is exposing himself in an interview or trying to truly answer a question, he gets ripped. Tim Sylvia loses whether he wins or lose especially when he had his dominant run.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 9, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
The bar I was at erupted with glee when Silva won. I think the whole meme of Silva not being liked by fans is overstated… give him quality opponents and his ppv numbers go up. The casual fan doesn’t know who Cote, Leites or even Maia are.
his numbers go up when they stack the card around him
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
Honestly, I don’t care about which champion has better PPV numbers that argument is really for the UFC matchmaker and finance department.
Most champions will never outperform Brock Lesnar’s PPV numbers thanks to Vince McMahon school or promoting. GSP has been in the UFC for the better part of his career and has a great branding management behind him not to mention an entire Country.
BJ Penn has his incredible BJJ championship story behind him and an entire state in Hawaii.
Silva has made many bad PR blunders and MMA athletes are barely celebrated in Brazil. Wanderlei Silva of all people, was held at gunpoint not too long ago.
Fortunately for guys Jon Fitch, MMA in the UFC is not entirely a popularity contest about who has the best PPV #’s because if it was then he would be out of a job really quick. And I do think we were spared from him not appearing on TUF 1.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 9, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
If the people there are anything like my casual MMA friends, then it wasn’t Silva’s winning that caused celebration of any sort. It was the fact that somebody pulled off a win like that. Most people I know who aren’t big MMA fans quite dislike him.
He earned a ton of respect and fans from that finish I’m sure, but there is a reason why his PPVs are generally always pretty stacked. Because he can’t sell on his own based on people generally not caring about him. This near loss was probably the best thing for his UFC career.
I think it was VERY interesting to see the crowd's shift in allegiance during the fight.
It went from 1st round chants of “Silva! Silva! Silva!!!”…
… To “USA! USA! USA!!!” once Chael started showing that he was in it to win.
I honestly think Silva is the most hated champion in MMA and it’s not because of his accomplishments or skill.
Semper Fi
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 9, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
my post was more-so dealing with the idea of Silva ‘aging’ and not taking into account an injury that would severely inhibited his movement/abilities. I believe his ribs were injured, but it is kind of crazy how people take that. Win or lose, discussing a pre-fight injury seems to be a vile action to many fans.
If you don't like the effect, don't produce the cause.
360Gamertag:Flipadelph1a
What excuses did he make?
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
It sucks replying down at the very bottom of the thread, doesn't it?
I always do that.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Like King Mo said...
It came down to game plans. Anderson wasn’t moving and backing up gracefully like he normally does, what you would expect for him to emphasize in a bout with a great wrestler. Instead he was trying to meet Chael and engage. His bread and butter is countering on the retreat.
Coupled with him coming out in a gi, I think he was thinking of getting taken down and getting a submission, I just don’t think he expected to get tagged on his feet and Chael being such a beast on top.
In the end, Chael got in his head and he switched his normal fighting style, which was perfectly suited to beat Chael.
It's important to filter everything Mo says about this fight through the fact that Mo and Chael are pals.
I had a twitter talk with him all day yesterday before I realized that I was never going to get him to admit anything about the guy he helped warm up for the first Filho fight.
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Yeah
but he’s consistent with this meme when he’s breaking down fights, regardless if its a teammate.
Regardless, Anderson wasn’t moving around the ring like he’s capable of and imo used a gameplan that invited the take down… high kicks on a wrestler?
I think he took the Nogueira jab very personally and that altered the way he approached the fight, why else would he come out in a gi, I don’t think he’s ever done that.
I don't know - the changes in his movement and his difficulty even trying to stand up when Chael was on top of him...
…seem more like the rib injury is true to me. I don’t think it’s that Chael got into his head, but that he dug into his ribs!
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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Bruised ribs, while a moderately painful injury, is not something that would materially affect the fight unless he was just freezing up in fear of the pain which I find highly unlikely to say the least.
Sonnen is just a particularly bad match-up for him, and an rematch will play out very similarly to this one, including the finish – that’s just who these guys are, and what their skillsets are, except Sonnen is weak mentally and Silva has the heart of a true warrior and champion.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 9, 2010 12:05 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That's odd that those two are friends
You know, King Mo with his crooked hats and earrings
When some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head up against the barroom wall, and he looks you crooked in the eye and he asks you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail." - Jack Burton
It's almost as though you can't trust the words that come out of Chael's mouth.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
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It almost seems that way, doesn't it? Hmm.
When some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head up against the barroom wall, and he looks you crooked in the eye and he asks you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail." - Jack Burton
Yeah, he doesn't call Anderson his "boy" though:
“@jemaleddin I personally know Chael…We are boys…I can call him up”
From this tweet.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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You’re just mad that Mo wants to corner me and not you.
by ufc4 on Aug 9, 2010 11:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You're damn right!
And you were making the same point I was! GAH!!!!
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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Could it be that Anderson was a little nervous? Thats why he got caught in the first? It doesn’t matter though, he won. What a great crazy fight.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Twitter Handle = @xFenixKnightx
I was extremely surprised by what Anderson was not doing. Where was his defense standing especially his head movement? Where was the lateral movement and "elusiveness?" Where was Anderson’s jab? I don’t know if he was so caught off guard by Sonnen rushing at him in the first round or what, but I didn’t see the Anderson that I am used to seeing. He didn’t establish distance especially with a jab which I thought (pre-fight) would allow him to stuff more takedowns. I don’t know if it was this mysterious rib injury, him just getting old, or what?
That’s why a rematch woulb be nice. Too many questions…
"...ride life straight to perfect laughter,
it's the only good fight there is."
by dancingChicken on Aug 9, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Too Injured IMO
Even Sonnen admitted that it was easier than expected to take down Silva
If you rewatch the fight you can see different parts of the fight when Silva points to his ribs. Even when they are putting the belt around him and he raises his hand you see him grimace in pain.
If you have had a injury anywhere in the abdominal it is very painful to do anything. That probably explains why he was getting caught standing up cause the rib injury probably gave him a split second delay in bringing up his hands to defend. Although in the first round it looked like he let Sonnen hit him 3 times clean
I wanted to see Silva get beat up but there was definitely something wrong with him.
"Although in the first round it looked like he let Sonnen hit him 3 times clean"
Yeah, that was such a weird round. He looked like he was just standing there and taking them for no reason. He didn’t really look like he was getting rocked either. I couldn’t figure out what was going on during that round.
I was kind of confused too
That made me think Anderson wasn’t there to fight. I wasn’t happy for most of the fight
We may have seen the drop off.
Everyone gets beat eventually. Larry Holmes, Ali, etc. Jones was a glaring drop off I loved due to my dislike for him. Hey, the guy was into dog fighting as well as being an egomaniac.
Soares is already downplaying the rematch
Kinda has a point. But the fact Sonnen fought for a finish and didn’t coast in the 5th is the reason Anderson still has a belt, so he kinda doesn’t.
Oh Christ
- I don’t care if Anderson comes in 200% healthy and pumped full of PEDs, the guy can’t stop a takedown
- For the love of god, can we please stop asking for the GSP fight. Especially after Chael showed that a good wrestler will just dominate Anderson
- Why is it every Brazilian that doesn’t come out of Chute Boxe immediately has an excuse after they lose a fight? Anderson’s starting to sound like Wahh-cardo Arona.
He stopped 4 of Sonnen's 7 takedown attempts.
So he can stop “a takedown” from time to time.
You may recall that he ended up on the ground in all 5 rounds, but in one he slipped and in the other he took Chael down, got into guard and was reversed.
Is his wrestling the best? No. But what you wrote is clearly inaccurate.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
- Why is it every Brazilian that doesn’t come out of Chute Boxe immediately has an excuse after they lose a fight?
Silva came out of CB
"...ride life straight to perfect laughter,
it's the only good fight there is."
by dancingChicken on Aug 9, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
The moral of the story, once again, is always book the best fight possible. Quit screwing around Dana, listen to Fagan and give us Anderson vs GSP.
Ok seriously I can’t be the only person who found this statement hillarious right?. Give us the fights we want to see really?. I thought that Sonnen was not in Silva’s league and that this was a waste of his talent now you want to see a rematch?. At some point I really wish people would step back and realise how silly they sound leave the match making to the pros please.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
Silva looks like he lost a step
He was tagged by Chael, his striking wasn’t particularly accurate. He didn’t gas though, I guess. Will be interesting to see what the betting line will be on Belfort.
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