Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: PHOTOS: Mike Moser's Dunk Face Is Spectacular

How the UFC Stole Pro Wrestling's Audience or Did It?

It's a real student over takes the master deal between Dana "Darth Vader" White and Vince "Obi Wan" McMahon these days.

Veteran pro wrestling carnival barker Jim Cornette talked to FanHouse (HT Cage Side Seats):

"MMA and the UFC have taken all of the pro wrestling fans because it's pro wrestling from 30 years ago, just in an Octagon and the fights happen to be real. But they're marketed exactly the same way. People want new stars, young athletes, a more serious approach. Athletic competition with interesting personalities with a hard sports edge and take the UFC fans back or at least entice a few of them to come back and then you'd have something."

"No one wants to try that because it would mean that everybody mostly over 40 in this business would be out of a job and those are the guys sucking up all the money."

The Camel Clutch Blog argues that the UFC isn't hurting pro wrestling (emphasis mine):

Ever since the UFC exploded in 2005, many pundits jumped on the bandwagon and predicted the demise of pro wrestling. Personally, I never quite understood the crossover and still don't understand why some pro wrestling news websites carry MMA news. I think the audiences are entirely different. I think most of the crossover comes from old wrestling fans that stopped following wrestling years ago and found something new to latch onto. As successful as Brock Lesnar has been in the UFC, I don't think it has as much to do with the pro wrestling crossover as people think. If that was the case, than Bobby Lashley's fights would be doing huge numbers, and Lesnar's Dynamite!! USA fight would have done record ratings on Showtime. At the end of the day I think these two audiences have as much in common as football and hockey fans.

Black Lesnar's informal survey of BElitists seems to confirm that a lot of MMA fans are former WWE fans.

But Dave Meltzer pointed out a while back that there's a clear correlation in good numbers for the WWE and UFC events:

WWE PPVs do 10% less than they "should" if they take place the night after a UFC PPV, and "even show some weakness" if there's UFC PPV 8 days before. This most noticeably affected Survivor Series '09 and Wrestlemania 26. Wrestlemania did 20% less than "the wrestling side" of the company did predicted that it would be, and 12% less than it was budgeted to do at the end of last year.

The WWE is apparently looking for hard evidence that they are NOT losing PPV customers to the UFC, via Pro Wrestling Torch:

WWE sent out a survey to WWE fans today looking to collect data on their PPV viewing habits after Sunday's Money in the Bank PPV.

The survey includes a question on whether fans watch WWE PPVs in groups, which has been WWE's explanation to shareholders for declining PPV buys.

WWE also asked whether fans watch other PPV programming, including naming TNA and UFC PPV events. WWE is apparently looking for evidence to support their claim to shareholders that there isn't significant cross-over between the WWE and UFC PPV-buying audience.

I really have to beg to differ with anyone who thinks that UFC heavyweight champ Brock Lesnar's incredible success isn't partly a result of him pulling his old WWE fans along with him. From Meltzer:

Lesnar's fights brought a new audience to UFC broadcasts, with company officials estimating close to half of the audience for his debut fight had never purchased a UFC event before.

Per Dave Meltzer, the UFC 116 PPV did very well but underperformed in the usual MMA hotspots and over-performed in the usual WWE strongholds. To me that indicates that the UFC is pulling in many still current WWE viewers. With money being tight, it's no wonder the WWE is losing sales.

I'd say the UFC has about wrung the WWE orange dry. The next step is to continue making inroads into the boxing audience. That's where the Kimbo Slice play was so brilliant. They parlayed Kimbo's fame and drawing power in the African-American community to push Rampage Jackson and Rashad Evans. I'd kill to know how many of the million plus buyers for UFC 114 were African-American and how many of those new fans are primarily boxing fans.

HBO has claimed that less than 5% of its boxing PPV customers also order UFC events. To me that means there is a huge audience out there to be tapped. Many of those boxing fans are African-American or Hispanic, but many are also older whites. The UFC 118 "freak show" fight between James Toney and Randy Couture should draw unusual interest from boxing fans in all three categories.

As long as professional wrestling is utterly controlled by the WWE and the WWE is a one-man dictatorship, pro wrestling will continue to decline. Zack Arnold has long argued that the collapse of Japanese proresu was a big factor in the later collapse of Japanese MMA because when proresu stopped producing dynamic new talents, MMA wasn't able to produce equivalent Japanese stars on its own. It's clear the WWE will probably never produce another Brock Lesnar so the UFC will have to grow its own stars from here on in. So far so good.

Comment 114 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

I remain absolutely befuddled as to how anyone remains a pro wrestling fan beyond the age of 15. Just like i’ll never get how people don’t want more road courses in NASCAR.

damn the general populus

a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon

by eastcoastatlas on Aug 4, 2010 10:39 AM EDT reply actions  

Different strokes for different folks. It’s our differences that keep things interesting.

Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/

"I thought I was getting raped by Freddy Mercury."
- Tank Abbot
on his decision loss to Dan Severn in 1995

by Worldisart on Aug 4, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve never watched NASCAR on TV beyond a few minutes but I’ve been to 3 races and between the tailgaiting and being at the actual race—it’s a great binge drinking experience. Highly recommend it at least once in your life.

by nastyem on Aug 4, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

that’s the thing. i could probably save a shitload of money on gas and equipment and just invite 200,000 people to come party in a stadium. set off a random explosion every hour or so, televise that shit (for the titty flashing) and boom, i’m a gazillionaire

a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon

by eastcoastatlas on Aug 4, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

My term for it is circle racing. The NASCAR fans I know hate it when I call it circle racing.

I get more rec's then a Toyota!

by DayGeaux on Aug 4, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know any NASCAR fans...

Hockey, Football, MMA and Basketball that is pretty much it. Everything else is a marginal “hey did you see that highlight on Sport Center” level of interest.

by truck on Aug 4, 2010 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

It’s a plague big in the Southern US

I get more rec's then a Toyota!

by DayGeaux on Aug 4, 2010 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

I object to it on a semantic level.

NASCAR is an acronym for the National Association of Stock Car Auto Racing.

Even ignoring the redundancy, there stopped being anything “stock” about those cars more than 30 years ago. Real NASCAR died when they banned wings in 1970.

And I’m even more annoyed that their technical regulations are a secret. How am I supposed to follow a motorsport if I’m not allowed to second-guess design-decisions? Formula One’s technical regulations are freely available, and I bet they’re a damn sight more complicated than NASCAR’s.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Aug 4, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was often asked by many people how I could watching wrestling since “isn’t it all fake?” Of course, these same people saw absolutely no irony in then turning around and watching shows like Survivor, the Bachelor, Hell’s Kitchen, the Osbournes, ect..ect…

by joshyboy708 on Aug 4, 2010 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

I stopped watching pro wrestling regularly sometime in high school.

That said, when it’s done correctly, pro wrestling can be a goddamn art…or at least very entertaining. Early 90’s AJPW, Super J Cups, WWF Attitude era, nWo/cruiserweight WCW era, Ric Flair, etc. I stumbled onto Japan Pro Wrestling HUSTLE a couple years ago, and every so often I’ll try to youtube clips of that too.

Yes, we know it’s fake. Unless you only read nonfiction and watch nature documentaries, I’m sure I could say the same about a myriad of books, TV, and film that you watch too.

by Mike Fagan on Aug 4, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nature documentaries are AWESOME!!!

Shark Week has been a disappointment so far this year.

by truck on Aug 4, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Drink every time they say shark.

"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe

by pdl on Aug 4, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I have elected to be a super nice guy and remain off the sauce while my lady is pregnant. No sauce until some time in 201. :(

by truck on Aug 4, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

it's not about the fake-ness. i know everyone knows its fake.

I watched it, just like you, up until a couple years into high school. it got too much like a shirtless, sweaty, physicially taxing soap opera. especially once i got deep into my HS folkstyle wrestling career. i’ve tried to go back, but it takes to much effort to follow the narrative, and I don’t find enjoyment in watching choreographed moves.

I read fiction books. they cost me $10 and i’m done with them in 2 days. I don’t have to spend years following a narrative, shelling out $50 every month.

I refuse to watch network TV outside of football. other than that, i only really watch discovery, history, animal planet, the wire, always sunny, and eastbound. in between seasons, i rip old shit off the internet.

My main issue is not fiction, but when fiction becomes a serial pasttime, and is difficult for me to rip off the internet at my own leisure. I refuse to allow any fictional thing to become a weekly event for me, and even the advetn of DVR doesn’t change this. why? look at my sig

a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon

by eastcoastatlas on Aug 4, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Thank you Fagan

Well put.

Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
Cagesideseats.com

by Geno Mrosko on Aug 4, 2010 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

MORE road courses?

Man, go watch your souped-up go-carts on F1 and leave the real racin’ to us NASCAR fans!

/Seriously, stop with the 1.5 and 2 mile ovals, NASCAR. We need more short tracks.

"I might know a couple things that you don't know. 'Cause I've been young, but you ain't never been old." - Elvin Bishop

by duck on Aug 4, 2010 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

i dunno, i just somehow have a greater appreciation for racing that involves turning in more than one direction. it’s not about the cars, did i suggest NASCAR change the cars? no. just make them turn in more than one direction on a regular basis

a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon

by eastcoastatlas on Aug 4, 2010 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

HERESY!

"I might know a couple things that you don't know. 'Cause I've been young, but you ain't never been old." - Elvin Bishop

by duck on Aug 4, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

It’s more intense when they just go in a circle. It’s like watching a kid spin around in circles really fast – at some point you know he’s going to smack his head into something.

by crazybones on Aug 4, 2010 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

he’s more likely to excitingly smash his head into something if you make him stop spinning and try to switch direction so the dizzyness actually sets in and his equilibrium is truly fucked

a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon

by eastcoastatlas on Aug 4, 2010 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think the UFC has done little to go after the hispanic boxing audience in particular, and that is a huge market they need to tap. I’m not sure if a guy like Cain on top can help with that or not, but they really need to go back to trying to run in Mexico and to develop hispanic talent in particular. As you’ve said, they’ve tapped all of the WWE fans they’re going to. This is the next biggest audience to me.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Aug 4, 2010 10:44 AM EDT reply actions  

Bellator's numbers regarding Hispanic audiences

would be interesting here. Between signing Roger Huerta for season 2 and being broadcast on ESPN Deportes in season 1, they may have made some inroads. That is some data I’d be interested in seeing.

"Deserve's got nothing to do with it." -Will Munny, a known thief and murderer, a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition.

by PapaBumpants on Aug 4, 2010 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think that’s why they went that way, because they knew the UFC was ignoring that audience. And it was a good idea, IMO. You’re right, I’d be interested in seeing their numbers too.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Aug 4, 2010 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, and it has to be said…Jim Cornette is the fucking man. His complete loss of sanity in the Dairy Queen drive-thru is one of the best stories ever.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Aug 4, 2010 10:49 AM EDT reply actions  

I started slowly converting from wrestling to mma around 2006 or so, and within two years I pretty much stopped watching wrestling entirely. But I never felt the need to apologize for what I watched….especially to an elitist mma community that has much more in common with the elitist wrestling community then they’ll ever admit.

by joshyboy708 on Aug 4, 2010 10:50 AM EDT reply actions  

lol

So true. I haven’t watched wrasslin since the early 80s hey day of roddie piper in the nwa but I loved beyond the mat and both mick foleys books
Its an art form sadly in decline right now

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Aug 4, 2010 10:59 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Bret Hart had a hell of a book recently too. The wrestling business and history remain deeply fascinating to me….its much more complex then the critics will ever give it credit for. I always thought there was a great movie about pro wrestling just waiting to be made, but it never really has been. I wasn’t a big fan of the Wrestler either.

by joshyboy708 on Aug 4, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

oh the wrestler is pretty epic

And its transparently based on beyond the mat
The mickey rourke character is terry funk and jake the snake

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Aug 4, 2010 11:12 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

i always forget how old you are

a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon

by eastcoastatlas on Aug 4, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is why I am more of a fan of independent professional wrestling. The stuff that some of these professional wrestlers on the indy circuit do is amazing. WWE really water downs what their performers are allowed to do in the ring.

by chrisbboy82 on Aug 4, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wait, so Wrestling is still a thing?

Maybe it’s not that the UFC is stealing their audience so much as their audience grew up.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Aug 4, 2010 10:56 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Despite what seems to be a condescending attitude about things….you’re actually not far off. The WWE’s target audience has been pushed back to kids. It is what it is, and I don’t hold that against them.

by joshyboy708 on Aug 4, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm just saying

When I was a kid in the 80s, the only people I knew who liked wrestling were other kids. And as we grew up, we got other interests like actual sports and – in some cases – girls. I assumed that was the case for everyone else, if only because the acting is so bad.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Aug 4, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

i'm kinda with you on this one

i too was big into wrestling in the 80’s but once i hit jr.high/high school in the early 90’s, girls and athletics took over my interests. isn’t that the same w/the majority though?

by BeeTrain on Aug 4, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not around here.

Seems like a lot of the BE folks continued through to college/today as fans. I guess I don’t get the appeal.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Aug 4, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

watch beyond the mat

Whether you like wrasslin or not its one of the best documentaries I’ve ever seen. Its chilling heartbreaking and inspiring.
To me the interest is in the crowd manipulation. Its no accident that andy kaufman was obsessed with wreslting

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Aug 4, 2010 12:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

That doc is great

and I think it, in a lot of ways, was a precursor to me no longer watching wrestling.

ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.

by Chris Barton on Aug 4, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

As a guy who never really found Kaufman funny,

….eh. He was interesting, but not funny. So that’s not a compelling argument to me.

And while I’m sure there’s a lot of behind the scenes stuff that would make for a compelling documentary, I don’t know why that would make me want to tune in and watch people not quite hit each other between opportunities to spout random phrases into a microphone.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Aug 4, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

He wasn’t trying to be funny a lot of the time though. That was part of his genius. He was happier getting people to hate him.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Aug 4, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

not a Kaufman fan

myself….he clearly got wood off of his own antics. i don’t see the appeal

by BeeTrain on Aug 4, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fair enough

A ton of people weren’t into him, and I can see why. I think I liked him because I’ve always been a big fan of, as Nate said, crowd manipulation.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Aug 4, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

well when he was tryingto be funny

he was the king. then he spend years fucking with people’s heads. it was genius.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Aug 5, 2010 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

No, he was trying to be funny,

…just not to the audience. I get where the humor is, I just don’t find it worthwhile.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Aug 4, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

no

he really was more interested in making the crowd hate him.
he wrote a script for a movie that never got made that was pure genius.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Aug 5, 2010 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, he was making the crowd hate him,

…because then the joke is on them and it’s funny to him and outside observers. That’s still trying to be funny.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Aug 5, 2010 8:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Andy Kaufman is one of the top 10 influences in my life.

by Mike Fagan on Aug 4, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

THIS EXPLAINS SO MUCH.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Aug 4, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Will definitely give it a shot. and goin back to the Wrestler, was it really based on Terry Funk/Jake the Snake? I had heard that it was based on Rick Rude’s career? nonetheless, a great flick and i heard that a bunch (Roddy Piper especially) of the old school wrestlers broke down during the screening of that movie – some epic shit

by BeeTrain on Aug 4, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I used to work with Rick Rudes daughter.

It was pretty sad.

ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.

by Chris Barton on Aug 4, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

really?

sad but i bet very interesting, no?

by BeeTrain on Aug 4, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm sure it was

but she never really saw him and didn’t talk much about it other than what a badass he was. It was pretty clearly a sore subject and I don’t really pry.

She was hot but the idea for Rick being her Dad made me way to scared to date her.

ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.

by Chris Barton on Aug 4, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's dead you know.

Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.

by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 4, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yea

He wasn’t at the time. He died right after she stopped working there.

ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.

by Chris Barton on Aug 4, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lawler and others have often said that Kaufman was one of the greatest natural talents he has ever seen on the mic. Its well known that had he ever wanted to pursue it, he could have been one of the greatest heel managers ever.

by Hutchy on Aug 4, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wrestling was pretty huge with the high school crowd in the late 90’s. But I guess not everyone could be as cool as you of course.

by joshyboy708 on Aug 4, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was busy being in the military, getting married and having kids.

So, not exactly my crowd. :-)

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Aug 4, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

For me, it was sort of a natural transition. I’m 21 now, and when I was a teen, wrestling was pretty big, with characters like the Rock and Steve Austin boosting its popularity. As I grew older, and developed my martial arts training, I realised that I wanted to watch something more ‘real’, and so turned to MMA and boxing.

Obviously MMA wasn’t as big back when wrestling was still in its heyday, but then again, I don’t know if I would have been as interested in MMA because of the ‘violence’ when I was young.

What the ancients called a clever fighter is one who not only wins, but excels in winning with ease.

-Sun Tze

by LYHL on Aug 4, 2010 10:57 AM EDT reply actions  

“I don’t know if I would have been as interested in MMA because of the ‘violence’ when I was young.”

That was the main reason we watched – the violence and trying to imitate the moves.

I think its a combination of things – the audience grows up, as it always has, but the new audience of kids that usually replaces them seems to prefer MMA – its the “kewl” violent sport.

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer

Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...

by BigDNotDallas on Aug 4, 2010 11:50 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

To be honest, I never watched wrestling for the violence. I knew it was fake, but I was always bit squeamish upon seeing blood when I was younger. I hated it when wrestlers were cut, or when they were whacked with bins/weapons because I thought the violence was unnecessary. I just watched it because I thought the moves were cool, the violence aspect didn’t really play a part of it, so much as the wrestlers personas and the aesthetics of the moves did.

What the ancients called a clever fighter is one who not only wins, but excels in winning with ease.

-Sun Tze

by LYHL on Aug 4, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Try looking at Mcmahon and White posturing on those magazine covers and try not to laugh!

by sheikybaby on Aug 4, 2010 10:58 AM EDT reply actions  

MMA didn't steal Wrestling's audience

Most fans left after 2001’s botched WCW/ECW invasion and the couple years after that. They kinf of wandered the plains like buffalo until TUF. Most MMA fans are former pro wrestling fans ashamed of their pasts.

MMA is not currently steal a substantial part of wrestling’s audience. There is cross-pollination though.

Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.

by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 4, 2010 11:03 AM EDT reply actions  

I guess the Camel Clutch Blog said the same as me.

Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.

by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 4, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

you are

Ignoring the data though

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Aug 4, 2010 11:07 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Data?

WWE’s ratings have been in the 3.0 – 4.0 range for a while. PPV buys are dropping because the matchups are stale. There’s no proof that WWE fans are now buying UFC PPVs.

Simply put, a decrease in WWE PPV buys and an increase in MMA PPV buys are not correlated. Just because both exist in the same dimension does not mean one causes the other.

Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.

by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 4, 2010 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

what about the new fans

Brock is drawing and the locations of the ppv orders for 116
That’s pretty compelling to me

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Aug 4, 2010 12:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

What does that have to do with wrestling?

Brock is a) drawing old wrestling fans who stopped when it became the HHH show and b) new people who never watched wrestling

Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.

by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 4, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

i think it's about timing

we started to see it w/Chuck (albeit his meteoric fall from the top), a man’s man w/sick KO power, who all could relate to. But now w/Brock, we see a monsterous freak athlete as the face of the sport, a goliath, a polarizing figure (love him or hate him) – it’s pretty compelling to practically every aspect of our society – thus the increase in PPV numbers when he’s fighting.

by BeeTrain on Aug 4, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bingo. That was a huge reason I stopped watching, the HHH show. Its one of those unspoken things that every who has been exposed to it knows but doesnt say out loud: HHH sucks. He always sucked. Hes never been in a match that I would find “compelling” (back when I was a fan) in which he wasnt carried by his opponent. When it became clear he was going to be pushed huge for the next 15 years, I checked out.

by Hutchy on Aug 4, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

If there was definitive data,

then there probably wouldn’t be a question mark at the end of this article title.

I tend to agree with Mr. Lesnar here. MMA may have a lot of WWE converts, but generally I think it is because they have outgrown the WWE or found the story lines to become a little contrived. They left the WWE because the WWE became stale not because the UFC was a better option.

The UFC may fill that void or be a new thing to follow, but I doubt there are a lot of people saying… Hmm… I could follow WWE, but this UFC thing is real fighting, therefor it is better.

by truck on Aug 4, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Honestly, what young male WASN’T a pro wrestling fan? All the guys from my generation watched The Rock and Stone Cold when we were younger. It’s like any other shitty TV trend. I think the disillusioned WWE fan turning to MMA is kind of a bad way to look at it.

by crazybones on Aug 4, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

I kind of agree. 2001 was the high point for the WWE. WCW had been losing fans for years, mostly to the WWE, but they still had a core fanabase that pretty much vanished entirely after the botched Invasion angle. The WWE’s ratings never really recovered after that, and this was years before the UFC was revived. On the other hand I think the massive built-in fanbase that Brock Lesnar brought with him cannot be overlooked either.

by joshyboy708 on Aug 4, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

2001 was the year I turned 12. Pro wrestling kind of went downhill as I neared puberty.

by crazybones on Aug 4, 2010 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hey thats wonderful for you.

by joshyboy708 on Aug 4, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the fans left in 2001.

You gotta remember, RAW was pulling like 5.0s or 6.0s back then. WCW was still pulling 2.0s and ECW was getting 1.0s on TNN. That’s pretty much 10 million wrestling fans a week. After 2001, that number went down to the low 5.0s (IIRC). IMO, those fans roamed around becoming fans of random shows until hearing about “that Ken Shamrock UFC” during TUF.

Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.

by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 4, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

you know what id love to see

Is the revival of real catch wrestling basically sub wrestling but with points for pinfalls and throws would be very interesting to see. Id love to see some. Of the old techniques like doc stachers leg scissors submissions rediscovered

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Aug 4, 2010 11:05 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

It’s pretty shocking that a pro wrestling blog would make the silly Brock Lesnar/Bobby Lashley comparison. Brock is better at pro wrestling and fighting, so it’s a big difference. For proof just look at how little effect WWE stars have when they go to TNA.

Brock’s PPV buys are a combination of brock being special, the UFC, and the WWE influence. You remove one or two of those factors and you won’t have the same success.

by Phildo on Aug 4, 2010 11:06 AM EDT reply actions  

UFC machine + Brock's look + pro wrestling fame = success

Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.

by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 4, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Black Lesnar’s informal survey of BElitists seems to confirm that a lot of MMA fans are former WWE fans.

Couldn’t this just be attributed to many young males having followed wrestling at some point to a certain extent?

In other words, you could do the same survey and find that most NFL fans were at some point, wrestling fans and so on.

Is there a certain connection between wrestling and MMA? sure, but I for one, did not stop watching wrestling for MMA. I stopped watching wrestling because to me it was a joke and not my thing.

I don’t think jemalledin’s comment can be stated enough. maybe just wrestling’s audience that made them explode in the 80’s and 90’s, grew up?

by BJJDenver on Aug 4, 2010 11:09 AM EDT reply actions  

and that isn’t to bash wrestling, while I don’t consider it a sport by definition, it certainly takes skill and hard work and is even at it’s highest level, somewhat artistic.

by BJJDenver on Aug 4, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Better qualify that

PRO wrestling may not be a sport, but wrestling sure as hell is.

"I might know a couple things that you don't know. 'Cause I've been young, but you ain't never been old." - Elvin Bishop

by duck on Aug 4, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

damn skippy

a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon

by eastcoastatlas on Aug 4, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Of course. I was posting in context to the article.

by BJJDenver on Aug 4, 2010 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just one of my pet peeves - no harm done

"I might know a couple things that you don't know. 'Cause I've been young, but you ain't never been old." - Elvin Bishop

by duck on Aug 4, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

I attribute it to hardcores being hardcores. The people that answered his survey are not a representative of the greater community at all. It’s not surprising that a lot of us are/were into wrestling. But the majority of MMA fans certainly are/were not.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Aug 4, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

And

This isn’t to say that the UFC isn’t pulling fans over by showcasing Lesnar.

Just like SF may be pulling football fans over by having Walker fight.

by BJJDenver on Aug 4, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

also

Thanks to Black Lesnar for putting that together. It was interesting to see where everyone was coming from.

by BJJDenver on Aug 4, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly. Many young males watched wrestling during the attitude era

or as children during the Hogan days.

Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.

by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 4, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't want your agreement! I want your recs!!!

:-P

But yeah: every guy in my grade school was into pro wrestling. Finding a connection between that and ANYTHING wouldn’t be hard.

100% of the lactose intolerant guys from my grade school were into wrestling! 100% of the future pharmacists from my grade school were into wrestling!

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Aug 4, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

HBO has claimed that less than 5% of its boxing PPV customers also order UFC events. To me that means there is a huge audience out there to be tapped.

To me that means fewer MMA fans that were boxing fans also (myself included), are still ordering boxing PPVs, especially one’s that don’t involve Pacman or Money.

No doubt there is still untapped audience there, but I think a certain amount of them are the old fogey, die hard boxing fans that will NEVER understand or even try to understand MMA.

by BJJDenver on Aug 4, 2010 11:24 AM EDT reply actions  

I'm

Still a wrestling fan overall. Granted I’ve given up on the TV product that’s slopped to you every week, but it’s hard to say no to a promotion like ROH, EVOLVE, or my personal favorite: Chikara. But with TUF, it caught my attention that they bust their ass more, get paid a little better, and get to hurt people for a living.

Both go hand in hand, and it’s hard not to enjoy both products

by MMA42 on Aug 4, 2010 11:59 AM EDT reply actions  

i stopped watching wrestling when i was 10 and found out it was fake

although i recently went to an event wasted outta my mind and dressed up like a hick and it was an insane amount of fun

We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!

by milk72 on Aug 4, 2010 12:10 PM EDT reply actions  

I don't watch any more because it's dreadful

A combination of storylines involving domestic abuse, sexual assault, jokes about mentally ill people and jingoistic bullshit have made the WWE borderline unwatchable, even if you basically love wrestling and a lot of the individual wrestlers.

 I can’t remember the year, but I was at a live Wrestlemania where the ‘gag’ was that Eugene (a Rain Man-style character) was mock-executed by some ‘arabs’, who were then beaten up by Hulk Hogan. While Hogan posed in front of an American flag, I pretty much swore that I was out of the whole stupid thing.

by CaptainArmbar on Aug 4, 2010 12:17 PM EDT reply actions  

He wasn't "mock executed". It was a camel clutch.

And fucking awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zkhw6eOw2ew

Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.

by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 4, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Have MADE it unwatchable? It was always that, bro, you just grew up. Remember Roddy Piper cramming a banana into Superfly Snuka’s face? That was back in 83.

by Hutchy on Aug 4, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, wasn’t it that he cracked a coconut over his head?

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Aug 4, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

“Personally, I never quite understood the crossover and still don’t understand why some pro wrestling news websites carry MMA news.”

I guess CCB doesn’t follow the puroresu scene or Japanese MMA.

Sergio Non,
MMA writer, USA TODAY
http://mma.usatoday.com

by Sergio Non on Aug 4, 2010 1:40 PM EDT reply actions  

I’ve watched pro wrestling since I was a kid in the late ‘80s and MMA since Blockbuster started carrying UFC tapes in the mid ’90s. There’s no reason the two have to be mutually exclusive. A lot of MMA fans seem embarrassed by the elements of pro wrestling in MMA, but the two have always been intertwined (especially so in Japan).

And then there’s the irony of MMA fans who look down on pro wrestling as being crude and boorish—which is how most people people still regard this “ultimate fighting fad.”

by BrandonC on Aug 4, 2010 1:42 PM EDT reply actions  

Intertwined is a (too) strong word, outside of Japan.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Aug 4, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

You Sir

Summed up what every wrestling fan is thinking (high five)

by MMA42 on Aug 4, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Talk to HHH, hes the source of your complaints.

by Hutchy on Aug 4, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not a writer.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Aug 4, 2010 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

But he has the ear of the guy who signs the writer’s paychecks

by Steve4192 on Aug 4, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I believe you mean the woman who signs the writers’ paychecks, and hes had alot more then just her ear.

by Hutchy on Aug 4, 2010 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not a writer? HHH is the only wrestler that sits in on production meetings

And he’s married to the owner’s daughter

Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.

by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 5, 2010 2:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sigh.

Goddamn it.

Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
Cagesideseats.com

by Geno Mrosko on Aug 4, 2010 7:01 PM EDT reply actions  

?

please elaborate?

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Aug 5, 2010 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

UFC /Wrestling

Being a guy who used to order alot if not all wrestling PPV in the 90’s.The UFC is taking buys from pro wrestling.

by TERRENCEFROMSOUTHEAST on Aug 5, 2010 2:38 AM EDT reply actions  

Pro Wrestling and MMA are 2 completely different things

PW is predetermined entertainment and MMA is legit athletic competition. MMA hasn’t stolen anything from PW or Boxing for that matter. People seem to intertwine PW and MMA because of one word: Wrestling…how the two apply them is where they become differing entities. In MMA, Wrestling is one of the common bases that many of the competitors come from and I’m talking about is Amatuer Wrestling.

The kind of that you see in HS and College as well Free Style and Greco Roman Wrestling for those who continue to wrestle after college. The related forms of Wrestling of BJJ, Judo and Sambo are also used by many competiton and some are even adapting the old form of Catch Wrestling where modern Amatuer Wrestling is rooted. Pro Wrestling when it was still thought of as real and originally it was a legit sport, use to place very heavy emphasis on using holds, wear down holds as well as concession holds and legit wrestling moves as well from it’s roots of Catch Wrestling. In MMA however the holds are meant to actually end the match, in PW they are used more times than not to enhance the drama.

It just so happens that both MMA and PW have had their fair share of decorated AW’s, Brock Lesnar while often seen more of his WWE PW fame was a very accomplished AW, compiling 106-5 record and winning an NCAA D1 Wrestling Championship in 2000. Dan Severn has competed in both PW and MMA and has done both successfully, having a very decorated AW background, Mark Coleman, Kevin Randleman, Don Frye, Bobby Lashley are other examples of credible amatuer wrestlers making stabs at doing both

by StealthBomber on Aug 11, 2010 7:05 PM EDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

"I don't want to knock my opponent out. I want to hit him, step away and watch him hurt" - Joe Frazier

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Shogun_logo_small
UFC’s Hopes For A Stadium Show In Sao Paulo Appear To Be Dead
Small
The Downfall of Diego Sanchez
Small
The time is right for a superfight, and it doesn't involve Anderson
391807_10150399618817701_750257700_8470850_1424416169_n_small
1 in about 7 billion!  :D
Obp_small
Nick Diaz - The Musical

Recent FanPosts

Small
Predicting A Collegiate Wrestler’s Development
Blav_small
OT: Help out my short film
Badr_hari3_small
War Machine explains what happenned and asks for support
Warrior_small
MMA Transaction Wire: February 4-10
Bv_small
BE Trivia Night

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

MMA Rankings

USA Today / SB Nation Consensus MMA Rankings