More on BJ Penn: Looking Back at His Lightweight Legacy and Revisionist Lunacy
"I don’t want to be known as a great fighter. I want to be known as the best. The best fighter ever"
Those are the words of a fighter that seemed focussed on legacy. When I talked to Penn before his second fight with Georges St. Pierre, his place in the sport's rich history was definitely on his mind. He was relaxed, sitting in the UFC media room and eating a bowl of fresh fruit, his bare feet propped on the table. But relaxed or not, this was an issue that was clearly on his mind.
We know what happened next. He was demolished by St.Pierre. Returning to lightweight, he subsequently lost twice to Frankie Edgar. His historical place, once so seemingly assured, was much less crystal clear. It was looking downright hazy. After all, a 5-5-1 record in title fights was hardly the accomplishment of a legend. I thought it was worth exploring where Penn fit in the big picture. Was he among the elite of all time? One of a handful? Or was he another great warrior who fell just short of immortality?
Response to my subsequent postfight piece on BJ Penn's historical legacy surprised me. In the aftermath of his second loss to Frankie Edgar, the truth seemed pretty apparent. BJ Penn, for all of his talent, has consistently failed on the biggest stage. He's succeeded as well - big wins over Matt Hughes, Sean Sherk, and Takanori Gomi. Enough so that it isn't ridiculous to consider him a potential all-time great. But those wins only gave us a tantalizing glance at what might have been. Because, more often than not, Penn lost when it mattered most. It's that obvious talent, Dana White told Kevin Iole in 2008, that makes Penn's failures so frustrating:
Some guys are born with God-given natural ability, but a lot of times, they're the hardest ones to get to train properly because everything comes so easily to them," White said. "And because of that, a lot of times they wind up (throwing) it all way. B.J. can do things that very few guys have ever been able to do in there, but he doesn't do it all the time because he hasn't dedicated himself to it.
White, as he so often does, has hit the nail on the head here. More on Penn's legacy, both as a fighter and a lightweight after the jump.
The revisionism of some Penn fans has been nothing short of amazing. Penn was a true phenom, a prodigy who dominated jiu jitsu competition and made a tremendous impact in his early Octagon appearances. But BJ Penn's initiial lightweight run in the UFC was ultimately a failure. How could it not be? When given the chance to win the world championship he couldn't get it done. He lost a decision to Jens Pulver at UFC 35 and fought to a draw with Caol Uno at UFC 41. Everyone was disappointed, including Penn.
It was his shocking upset of Matt Hughes that catapulted Penn into the realm of legend. Unfortunately, it was a win he couldn't seem to build on. He spent several years in kind of a netherworld, fighting for neither Pride or the UFC, biding his time in his brother's promotion or bouncing around weight classes for K-1.
When he made his Octagon return in 2006, it was still all feast or all famine for the talented fighter. He still couldn't quite put the pieces together. He felt destined for success, but his dreams fell hard against rising star Georges St. Pierre and against Hughes in a rematch. Penn said he had only himself to blame. He wasn't serious enough about being great, not serious enough to turn his potential into performance:
"The second Hughes fight was a huge reality check," Penn said. "But it didn't hit me right away. When I first got home, I was still in the bars; I was still hanging out and was doing a bunch of things. I wasn't in the gym. Then, on my birthday when I turned 28 (Dec. 13, 2006), it was time to get serious, time to wake up."
Just like it had when he left to face Hughes for the first time at UFC 46, the lightweight division chugged along in Penn's absence. No one had really caught the eye of the sport's fans in America. The UFC, looking to change that, brought him back to the division with a splash - a long awaited rematch with Jens Pulver and a prime coaching slot on The Ultimate Fighter 5. Pulver, like Penn, had feuded with the Zuffa brass. His own journey around the sport's fringe promotion had been less succesful than Penn's. Pulver, simply put, had fallen on hard times. His comeback had already been derailed by an unknown Joe Lauzon. A Penn win was a mere formality.
What followed was like a hot knife slicing through butter. Penn's lightweight legacy was cemented in his next few fights. He beat Joe Stevenson for an interim title after champion Sean Sherk was suspended for steroid use, then wrecked Sherk to solidify his status as the division's best. Some would argue that the best lightweights were actually fighting in Japan, where the top fighters had all congregated after the UFC shut down the division when Penn failed to thrive there years earlier. But with a win in his pocket over Japanese kingpin Takanori Gomi back in 2003, many gave Penn the benefit of the doubt. He was the best, building his legacy, the one so important to him.
Penn though, Penn dreamed big. Being the best lightweight, cementing that status by taking on all comers, wasn't enough for him. He wanted more. He talked about winning titles all the way up to heavyweight, becoming the sport's only five division champion. He talked about going up to welterweight again. More than anything, he talked about Georges St. Pierre.
St. Pierre had become the sport's top star while Penn was securing his lightweight title. Their first match had been close, a razor thin margin separating the two men. Penn didn't want to be the best lightweight, to prove that beyond dispute. He wanted St. Pierre. And he got him. St. Pierre toyed with Penn in the welterweight star's most transcendent performance. Penn had the potential to be great, but he looked true greatness in the eye that night - and had no answer for it.
After beating reality stars Kenny Florian and Diego Sanchez, Penn ran into another fighter who seems to have solved the BJ Penn riddle. Frankie Edgar outworked Penn for five rounds to win a close decision at UFC 112. The loss got people thinking again about how to rate Penn, how his career was stacking up as he passed thirty and headed towards athletic irrelevance.
Yahoo's Kevin Iole put it best before the second Edgar fight:
...it’s time for Penn to back up his words and produce.
His potential has brought him to the threshold of greatness. But if he wants to be great, if he wants to inducted one day into the UFC Hall of Fame, if he wants to be recalled years from now as the greatest lightweight champion in UFC history, he needs to quit promising to live up to his potential and finally do it.
If he loses to Edgar, perhaps it’s time to look at him as a good fighter – perhaps a very good fighter – concede that we were all wrong and drop the "greatness" label.
Penn, though, is just 31 and has a lot of time to still ultimately become the fighter so many believed he would be.
It’s all up to him.
BJ Penn's legacy was up to him. He held it in his hands. And, as happened time and again, he dropped it. We watched it shatter as Frankie Edgar left Penn standing beltless and looking foolish, on the losing end of another title confrontation. The questions have been answered. BJ Penn was amazing. But he wasn't one of the greats. Potential matters. Performance matters more.
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who is
the greatest lightweight of all time, aoki?
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by Thats It For you! on Aug 31, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
No
Just no.
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
by Damon O. on Aug 31, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Breaking news Today: Aoki, worlds best LW has to have surgery to replace the tissue lost on his buttocks from hard fought battles over the years.
by DayGeaux on Aug 31, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'd have more respect if you stuck to your previous argument and not tried so hard to make a point against people that have legit disagreements
I suppose if someone shits in the cereal of reality twice you have a right to be pissed
by truck on Aug 31, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah man!
I’m so upset right now grrrr free reading material to discuss about my favorite sport I’m all sorts of angry.
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 31, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah about that, you may want to lay low for a while maybe get out of town
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 31, 2010 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
"After beating reality stars Kenny Florian and Diego Sanchez"
or legit number one contenders. I guess they aren’t befitting of that title because they were on a TV show… not like they were both top 10 LWs or anything.
by TylerTreese on Aug 31, 2010 11:22 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
LOL at Diego Sanchez as a legit number one contender.
by Manzanillos Cup on Aug 31, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
LOL at the idea “Top 10 LW” is the same as #1 contender.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 31, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
How was he not a legit #1 Contender?
Who else could Penn have faced? Lets remember that Frankie got his title shot after beating Matt Veach. It’s not like he faced a who’s who of the division.
by TylerTreese on Aug 31, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Diego had unimpressively beaten the UFC’s LW gatekeepers in Stevenson and Guida. But they used the fact that he has name value to catapult him into a title shot – Diego has never beaten a top 5 fighter in his division.
Maynard (Huerta, Miller, Edgar) and Edgar (Sherk, Franca, Fisher, Griffin) were the most deserving a year ago.
by bigweeze on Aug 31, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
please name a better contender who didn't recently lose before Penn fought Diego
I thought of Tyson Griffin but he had a loss to Sherk recently and had only a 2 fight win streak
by TylerTreese on Aug 31, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
While I don't have a gripe with the Sanchez fight
It is kind of telling that the guy had only two fights at 155 prior to his title shot.
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by Worldisart on Aug 31, 2010 11:35 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
LW in the UFC
isn’t as deep as everyone likes to think. Diego was the best possible guy they had to face Penn at that time.
by TylerTreese on Aug 31, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
That's fine
But if you’re going to refer to him as the best option at the time, don’t expect others to glorify him as stellar opposition. I love Diego but under other circumstances, and had he not been the promotions golden boy, he would have no business being in that fight.
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by Worldisart on Aug 31, 2010 11:42 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I also never said that a top 10 LW is the same as a #1 contender
I said you calling them “reality stars” was disrespectful. They were top 10 guys not reality stars. Don’t put words into my mouth. Who else did the UFC have other than Florian & Diego. They both were coming off impressive wins.
by TylerTreese on Aug 31, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
How is that disrespectful? This sport was built by reality television.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 31, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You know exactly how it is disrespectful. Any writer worth a penny knows that.
Guillotine.
by iiowyn on Aug 31, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 24 recs
Seriously
He always has to add an outlandish comment, backhanded compliment or outright fighter bashing to his articles.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Blackout612 on Aug 31, 2010 1:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
It’s adorable.
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by Derek Suboticki on Aug 31, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Because it implies that they are well-regarded ONLY because of their television exposure rather than their fighting abilities. Definately disrespectful.
by ThaiGae on Aug 31, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Anyone who thinks their status as TUF stars didn’t contribute to them getting a title shot is fooling themselves.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 31, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Kenny had clearly earned it with several high profile victories in a row.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I really hope BJ says “fuck everyone” and starts his own fight promotion eventually.
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
Ultimate Scrapping Championships
No round limit, no judges.
by menckenstein on Aug 31, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And you have to come to the fight pudgy.
by Manzanillos Cup on Aug 31, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Get Fokai and RVCA on board and just start recruiting from all the island areas around the world. Easier said than done sure but I think it’s possible.
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 31, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
BJ Penn will forever be remembered as a freakishly talented wunderkind and an all-time great. He is a once-in-a-generation freak of nature who was born with all the tools to give FEDOR a run for his money on The Best Ever. However, it seems that he will also be remembered as a great fighter who wanted to be some kind of demigod – and forgot he had to work to get there.
You don't like wrestling in MMA? Go watch K-1.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Aug 31, 2010 11:27 AM EDT reply actions
Okay
So who is the best LW of all time if not Penn?
Not in the future. As of this second. In my opinion, really, no one comes close.
You raise some basic good points, but I don’t see how you can rag on a guy who is the best ever in his weight class.
I think the point is, being "the best LW of all time" is not the accomplishment the title hints at.
He’s 5-5-1 in title fights. That’s not deserving of a place in the upper echelon of MMA greatness for me.
by Manzanillos Cup on Aug 31, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
they go hand and hand no?
otherwise its a P4P arguement
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by Thats It For you! on Aug 31, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
exactly
Not being the best P4P and not being the best LW are two different things. The latter is still an incredible accomplishment.
I am still waiting for anyone on this board to tell me who is better than Penn, so far. I mean, maybe Edgar or Maynard or someone will go on a tear and in fiver years we’ll say they’re way better than Penn. But as of right now, who is better than him?
you'll be waiting for a long time
b/c there isn’t anyone
by BeeTrain on Aug 31, 2010 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
im a aoki fanbody so i will say him, lost less big fights, and has been written off worse than bj is now after losing to Gil
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by Thats It For you! on Aug 31, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
It was less that he lost to Gilbert Melendez
And more that he was utterly humiliated by him
by menckenstein on Aug 31, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
you know what
I respect you a lot for at least attempting to answer the question.
So thanks.
But I disagree.
Well there has to be a GOAT in every weight class, even if the sport is young, and BJ although im not a huge fan got the GOAT for LW, the way he won and the path od destruction he left cemets that, sure people will surpass him but right now, hes the best LW ever.
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by Thats It For you! on Aug 31, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Edgar has been fighting for 5 years as a lightweight and already has a transcendent win. Penn has 6 years fighting at lightweight and doesn’t have any wins nearly as impressive as the two Edgar holds over Penn. It wouldn’t take Edgar long to mount a greater record at lightweight should he beat Maynard.
by VirtualBalboa on Sep 1, 2010 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, under my definition of upper echelon, I don't think so.
Here’s the thing – People are getting stuck on this "greatest LW of all time" tag. They come to that because it’s been promoted to death, and because it makes sense if you consider the length of his career and his big wins. I’m not going to even argue that "greatest LW of all time" is unfitting. But the accolade is misleading, and I think Snowden hits on most of the relevant points that support this. As far as LWs go, he may have the best history behind him, but his failures leave him out of the company of Fedor, GSP, and Anderson.
by Manzanillos Cup on Aug 31, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
No, however
He’d definitely lose some of that sparkle
by menckenstein on Aug 31, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
He would no longer be in any GOAT conversations
But he would still be the greatest WW of his generation, maybe of all-time depending on how the rest of his career goes.
Much like if Anderson moved up and lost 2-3 times, or if Fedor had come to the UFC and lost 2-3 times.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 31, 2010 11:56 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I agree...
I don’t think a lot of people call Penn the GOAT though.
Saying he is the best LW of all time isn’t a stretch, so that places him among the best.
True, although I was talking about GSP in the GOAT conversation.
The funny thing, how different would BJ be viewed had he stayed at home in LW? His 15-7-1 would be 14-3-1 by simply removing the out-of-class fights he took, and few would argue against him being 19-3-1 had he replaced those 5 fights with 5 against any LW he could have fought during the same time frame.
BJ’s record looks like I imagine Anderson’s or Fedor’s would look had they actively sought the best possible fights at any weight, in any organization…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 31, 2010 12:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Penn is one of the most talented fighters in MMA
And has the biggest set of balls in MMA.
If you dont think Bj is one of the GOAT’s so far in MMA you havent been paying attention and I probably don’t care for you as a person.
by the-gentle-way on Aug 31, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is the problem – We automatically assume BJ Penn wins. The problem is that he often doesn’t when we expect him to. He could just as easily be 17-5-1 taking Lightweight fights.
by VirtualBalboa on Sep 1, 2010 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions
True enough
And given some of the eggs he’s laid in the past it is a valid concern, although I don’t recall anyone he was eligable to fight during that period at LW that would have posed any real challenge…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Sep 1, 2010 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I imagine it would have to be Edgar – 13-1 and 2-0 in title fights. Penn is 4-3-1 in title fights (Stevenson, Sherk, Florian, Sanchez).
I don’t see how you can rank Penn higher than a guy who beat him twice (officially) and at the very least outclassed him decisively in his prime.
Of course, Edgar’s spot isn’t that secure either with Maynard breathing down his neck to put him in a similar situation as Penn. If Maynard wins and then BJ beats him then this would of course muddle everything.
5-5-1 in all title fights – 4-3-1 in LW, 1-2 at WW (Hughes, Hughes, GSP).
You don't like wrestling in MMA? Go watch K-1.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Sep 1, 2010 7:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Penn was the best lightweight on the planet for most of the last 10 years, through 2009 anyways.
- When he fought Machida, GSP and won the WW title Penn was the still the worlds best LW.
- When he lost lost a handful of debatable decisions to top level talents, he was still the worlds best LW.
- While he fell short of becoming the greatest fighter ever, he is the greatest LW of all time.
- Until another LW dominates his division and moves up in weight and becomes the best WW in the world, there is no debate.
by truck on Aug 31, 2010 11:28 AM EDT reply actions 12 recs
Until another LW dominates his division and moves up in weight and becomes the best WW in the world, there is no debate.
So, to be the best lightweight you have to move up in weight, upset the champion, then lose in every other major welterweight encounter?
When he fought Machida, GSP and won the WW title Penn was the still the worlds best LW.
So, you can be the top lightweight in the world even when you are nearly “James Toney” level out of shape and fighting at heavyweight?
These arguments seem odd to me.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 31, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The sport is like 15 years old. Being the best ever just doesn’t have the same ring it does in baseball or boxing.
"an excellent example of why most MMA "journalism" is a joke. Pseudonyms like "toxic" and shitty writing like that dopey article"--- Joe Rogan.
No kidding.
Being called “the Greatest Women’s MMA Fighter” right now is a little above being employee of the month at your one man consulting firm.
by menckenstein on Aug 31, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Still doesent change that fact there is one.
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by Thats It For you! on Aug 31, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
True
But it’s like being the longest hair on Dana White’s scalp, it’s not hard when the competition is that thin.
by menckenstein on Aug 31, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
But his compentition looks thin because the fighters he beat were not the same after – Sherk, Jens (2nd battle), Diego and to a lesser extent Kenflo.
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by Thats It For you! on Aug 31, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
They were considered dominators, before the got beat
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by Thats It For you! on Aug 31, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Pulver hasn't put more than two together since the Gomi KO.
I don’t buy that Penn stole his soul. He was already on the wrong side by the time of that fight, coming off a loss to Lauzon. Sherk hasn’t looked awful, just has bad knees and has been injured a lot and is on the wrong side of 30. His only loss since then was a tough decision to Frankie Edgar, which happened twice to BJ last I checked. Kenny came out and did bad things to Guida and Gomi after his loss.
Diego was the only guy who really looked bad after the Penn fights, and that had a LOT of other stuff behind it. Penn beating him was icing on the crazy cake.
BJ Penn is not the stealer of souls like Fedor has been.
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Yes, but...
I am talking about women’s MMA
by menckenstein on Aug 31, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
That is an easy answer
There will be no arguement that Cyborg is the greatest woman MMA fighter who lived, unless proven she is a man
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by Thats It For you! on Aug 31, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Megumi Fuji?
No? Ok…
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i stand corrected.
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by Thats It For you! on Aug 31, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
Penn has spent way too much time NOT fighting at LW
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by Worldisart on Aug 31, 2010 11:37 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Some of both. Of course the biggest factor is because he wanted to get paid.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 31, 2010 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
If GSP moves up to MW and loses fights to Sonnen, Silva and Maia
Would he no longer be a great fighter?
I’m not sure how that is related. It’s not a proper analogy.
St. Pierre won the welterweight title and has been a great champion. That legacy is in place no matter what might happen at 185 pounds.
When Penn moved up and lost those fights at 170, he had NEVER BEEN lightweight champion.
It’s not the same.
Performance matters.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 31, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
BJ was the #1 ranked LW in the world when he moved up.
GSP is the #1 ranked WW in the world right now.
That is a fair comparison.
I think the way
the way Penn dominated the LW division between 2007 and 2009
does as much so solidify his place in the history of that division as:
the way GSP has solidified his place in the WW between 2008 and 2010
Three years is three years.
Before that, GSP was 1 – 2 in title fights.
He was the number one ranked lightweight by what measure? He had just failed to win the UFC title and had beaten Gomi, who had just lost his title. It’s hardly the same as GSP’s dominant run as a welterweight. You are doing mental gymnastics trying to make this case.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 31, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You mean like you did comparing BJ’s LW reign to Urijah Faber’s?
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Aug 31, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
OOOOH HE SAID YO BREFF STANK
I'm the best ever. You're the most average in a minute.
by slapjaw ackrite on Aug 31, 2010 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions
By what measure?
By beating the best the UFC had to offer for 3 years. The same way GSP has done to WW.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
He didn’t do that. He lost and drew his two most important fights before moving up in weight.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 31, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
He did do that.
07-09
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
God. You are impossible. Follow the conversation. We are talking in this tangent about accomplishments before jumping up in weight.
If GSP goes to middleweight it will be with his WW legacy assured.
When Penn jumped to WW he hadn’t even won a title at lightweight. Penn didn’t win the LW title until after losing twice in a row at WW.
That’s why the analogy didn’t work.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 31, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
It still works
There is no reason to argue that doing it backwards would somehow change how we see the fighter in historical perspective.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course it does. He went to a higher weight class because he failed at the lower one. Instead, the argument presented is that because he ultimately won a vacant title at the lower weight class (against JOE STEVENSON, of all people) it automatically erases the failures of before. That may work for people who have no recollection of that time period and prefer to not let it infringe on their memories of the present.
by VirtualBalboa on Sep 1, 2010 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions
First of all, Bj is the best FIGHTER at lw still.
Frankie didn’t ever try to hurt Bj. He tried to out score Bj. Maynard doesn’t try to hurt people/ end fights. He tries to out score them. I really feel like MMA is starting to become a shell of what it was suppose to be. I think its neat that Edgar and Gray win the game of mma , but they rarely win the Fight.
Or am I an Asshole that no one agrees with???
by the-gentle-way on Aug 31, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
He was the number one ranked lightweight by what measure?
By what measure? Ranking. I didn’t make them. Many rankings had Penn ranked as the #1 LW and the #1 WW by the end of 03. I didn’t create that part of history.
Truthfully, we are both doing a little gymnastics and we are both arguing
OPINIONS
Your opinion is not better than mine.
by truck on Aug 31, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
Nobody had him ranked #1 at lightweight at the end of 2003.
by VirtualBalboa on Sep 1, 2010 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions
BUT
GSP has just won 6 straight title fights…
BJ never won more then 2 title fights in a row….
I don’t think that Snowden is arguing that BJ wasn’t a great fighter, cause he was, but to say that he’s one of the greatest ever is discrediting guys like Anderson, GSP, Fedor and such guys who have only lost to a select handfull of fighters.
Had BJ stayed at LW, destroyed everyone they put in front of him (which he did, and didnt… he KILLED guys like Sherk, Stevenson, Sanchez ect, but also lost to Uno, Edgar and Pulver) then maybe he would be considered in the same as GSP or Anderson…
To be great it takes more then skill… IT takes dedication, determination, will power.. all stuff that BJ seemed to fall short on
He didnt lose to Uno
He beat him inside of a minute once and had a draw with him in a title fight.
by the-gentle-way on Aug 31, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
you've toned it down this time
At least this time you didn’t refer to BJ as “ordinary”. Your argument, as others have commented to your last post, has validity, but when it is phrased in your negative fashion, it is hard for anyone to actually consider your ideas. Instead, we all end up reacting to your overblown rhetoric.
No matter what
As a fan of MMA, I will watch BJ Penn fight everytime he steps into a cage/ring, that’s his legacy to me. He will always be a fighter who people want to see in action, regardless of the opponent or weight class.
Penn is still the greatest.
All of these are valid points and I agree, but its hard to argue that he isn’t one of the greatest fighters in MMA history.
I say this because he is well endowed athletically and mentally in terms of being a fighter. He fought outside of his natural weight class against guys like Renzo, Machida, Hughes, he has the balls of a true fighter.
However it is true that his blessing of natural ability is also a curse-which is ultimately what causes him to lose. Its his feelings of grandiosity that makes him falter on repeated occasions.
Frankie Edgar didn’t buy into the BJ hype and aura that most other fighters buy into. Its a contagious intangible that can make or a break an opposing fighter. Edgar came in with the right game plan TWICE and it is Penns fault for not adjusting his game plan (should have tried taking the fight to the ground more often) thus forcing BJ to fight Edgars game.
Penns legacy has been tarnished, but I have no doubt he can reclaim it…but its all up to how bad he wants it.
Personally I hope he gets it back but we’ll have to wait to see
I admit
that Penn could have possibly had a better career than he has but i’m sure he is an MMA great and in no way overrated.
The size difference alone means he would never have beat someone like GSP who admittedly has a more well rounded game also.
The Edgar fights are just losses that can happen to any fighter and we still don’t know how good Frankie is gonna be yet.
We also don’t know what the future holds;Maynard may well beat Edgar,then lose to Penn.
And then these emotional wrtiers who like to write fighters of or label them overrated will be telling us Penn is one of the best ever.
Fedor,Randy,A Silva and GSP all lost fights too you know and some were more embarassing and emphatic than any of Penn’s losses were.
Fedor,Randy,A Silva and GSP all lost fights too you know and some were more embarassing and emphatic than any of Penn’s losses were.
The difference is that the fighters you’ve listed have much better records than BJ Penn in title fights. Everyone loses. But the true greats rise to the occasion more often than not. Penn didn’t do that.
Performance matters.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 31, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think it’s bullshit to say he’s 5-5-1 in title fights just because Gomi wasn’t a title fight. That’s arguably the most impressive victory of BJ’s entire LW career.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 31, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Because Snow
just wants to set up an argument for why BJ isn’t “great” set in his own strange parameters that are ACTUALLY meaningless to anyone but him. That way he can feel more righteous and correct about his nonsense, unlike his last BJ article.
Seriously… he had to make two? Ridiculous.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Wait
You are upset because I didn’t count a fight that wasn’t for a title as a title fight? That doesn’t make any sense. It wasn’t for a title because BJ couldn’t win the UFC lightweight title and Gomi couldn’t hold on to the SHOOTO welterweight title.
How can it be considered a title fight? How are title fights “strange parameters meaningless to anyone but me?” Penn fans, these are your cohorts!
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 31, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Did it go over your head?
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Did what go over my head? Are you seriously arguing that title fights are an important measure only to me? Or are you arguing that Gomi-Penn was like a title fight, even though Gomi had just lost his and Penn had never won a title?
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 31, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
So then the answer is "yes". Got it.
You set up a formula for “greatness” that you think you can defend, by somehow asserting that only title fights should matter in the discussion. It’s silly.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
No one said that. But they are an important consideration are they not? Isn’t that where the best fight the best?
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 31, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
It certainly seems implied by your argument. Yes, title fights matter. They are not the end all be all.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
They are a big part of GOAT arguments. The greats win. Period.
Performance matters.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 31, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Performance matters
Which is why non title fights also matter. The greats do win, which BJ had done and done and done some more. The greats also lose.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
The problem is that he didn’t do much more winning than losing, hence the record hovering closer to .667 than .900.
by VirtualBalboa on Sep 1, 2010 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s a fair point,imo,but i doin’t think BJ should be counted out yet.
He could have a few more suprises and big performances left in him.Styles make figths after all.
By the way,i know that you were talking about championship fights but can i just say that as a long time boxing fan,one of the things i love about MMA is that undefeated records are not the be all and end all and a loss is not the end of the world.
It is much harder to keep winning in MMA than in boxing,imo.
by Matt Mosley on Aug 31, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
I also think a fighter’s greatness should be measured once he has retired,not while he is still fighting.
Even if he retired tommorrow,Penn is an ATG,imo.Maybe not one of the very best but definitely in top 10-15.
by Matt Mosley on Aug 31, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
They have much better records in title fights, yes. But how many of those title fights were above their natural weight.
Your assessment of Penn’s career is laughable, Snowden.
You use the Pulver loss as an example of Penn not being an all time great because he “failed to rise to the occasion”, yet completely ignore the fact that it was his [b]fourth ever MMA fight.[/b]
You use the losses to GSP and Hughes as further evidence of him “not rising to the occasion”, yet ignore the fact that Penn is a natural LW (and not a big one at that), and GSP and Hughes are the two greatest WWs of all time.
Throw in the contentious decision (a wrong one in my view) that was the first Edgar loss, and this “rising to the occasion” nonsense starts to look pretty thin.
I’m not even sure if I consider you a journalist at this point, you’re certainly not a credible one considering how badly you ignore the context of Penn’s defining losses and seem content to just throw out the raw stats as if they alone are enough to prove your point. They’re not.
Just more sensationalist ignorance, much like your first piece on this matter.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Aug 31, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Good try, but...
Still doesn’t change the fact that BJ Penn will be in the UFC Hall of Fame, which will forever define him as great.
I don’t know if we can be sure that BJ will be inducted into the hall of fame or not. Look at Frank Shamrock, and Bj and Dana never got along well either.
I don’t think that’s an unfair assessment. Penn and Zuffa have been battling for years. It could easily affect whether he makes the UFC HOF.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 31, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Ken Shamrock and Zuffa have been fighting for years
Shamrock even sued them but he still made it in the hall of fame.
Frank didn't
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Erasing the Tito fight from history pissed me off a little.
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 31, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Yea, it's crap
I don’t even like Frank, but his position in history should be secure. If the UFC wants to run a “Hall of Fame” they need to be more fair.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
MMA
should have an independent HOF,if possible.
UFC’s bias should not be part of it.
by Matt Mosley on Aug 31, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
/agree
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
It would go the about as well as WAMMA did. Zuffa would never acknowledge it and would not participate.
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 31, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
All true
but it doesn’t mean we have to like it.
It sucks to think Saku, Igor, Fedor, etc. won’t be in the Hall of Fame.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
If you based terms strictly on fame in the US they would not make the short list.
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 31, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
NIce sig by the way Brookhouse gold
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 31, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Brent and Luke
are in a constant battle for my heart.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Love triangles how they fuck do they work?
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 31, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Ken was put in the HOF before the litigation when they were on good terms.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 31, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Shamrock sued them after being inducted.
by VirtualBalboa on Sep 1, 2010 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions
I think myself and a bunch of other MMA fans are going to keep saying BJ Penn is one of the greats.
If you want to calls morons or sheep or suckers, that’s fine. But we’re going to keep doing it anyway.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 31, 2010 11:36 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
He can lose his next ten fights and Wanderlei will still be one of the greats to me.
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 31, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
People don’t understand an important point when it comes to MMA.
People want to remember something. People will remember the epic Clay Guida battles, and he’s not a great MMA fighter. Good, yes, great, no… but people will remember him.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 31, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
...
Wand = Guida?
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
To the 17 year old fans that don’t know any better yes sadly yes the comparison is probably apt.
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 31, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s why I always said Vince was wrong when he said MMA has a flaw of not being able to choose the winner. Fighters losing has a weird way of making this sport far more interesting.
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 31, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think Snowden has referred to anybody who’s disagreed with him in such derogatory terms.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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by Worldisart on Aug 31, 2010 11:39 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm predicting a future
In which a large part of the Internet MMA media has Frankie Edgar at #2 and holds those of us that disagree in disdain.
When Maynard wins, we’ll see who has who where. Only then can we see if I’m right.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 31, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
What does the media’s ranking of Frankie Edgar have to do with BJ Penn’s career arc? I really don’t understand the way you think.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 31, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
In a way,
because you are the media, and you are using BJ’s losses to Frankie Edgar as a reason to write him off as “overrated” and “ordinary”. If Frankie goes on to a Matt Hughes-like domination of the division over the next five years, does that in retrospect cause you to re-evaluate BJ’s status as a LW great?
That’s a fine line you are dancing on. What if Frankie goes 0-2? It works both ways is all I’m trying to get across. The LW division is becoming the new mini LHW division. Hard to rank and even harder to predict.
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 31, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
right, but
Snowden already disrespected Edgar by declaring BJ not one of the greats because Edgar beat him twice. All I am pointing out is that it may be a bit early to use that as your measuring stick. Edgar may be legit, and then it should in no way cancel everything BJ has done to this point.
No one argues that Hughes wasn’t great during his run because he eventually lost to GSP. Because of what St. Pierre went on to accomplish, Hughes’ loss didn’t diminish his legacy in the eyes of knowledgeable observers.
People seem to be forgetting that many of them thought BJ won the first fight.
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 31, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
get over yourself
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 31, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
BJ Penn is a finisher and an exciting fighter
He takes risks like moving up in weight. He likes the stand up over his God-given jiu-jitsu skills. He’s like a great version of Jorge Gurgel. When you take risks in MMA, there is always the chance that you will fall because of the multi-faceted nature of MMA. He doens’t rely on one superior skill to grind out victories like many fighters today.
This is BJ Penn in a nutshell. I prefer to watch BJ Penn over the Gray Maynards and Frank Edgars. This isn’t boxing where padding your record is the sole reason for greatness. Watch the fighter, not his fight record.
Yup. This is going to be hard to control...
by Anton Tabuena on Aug 31, 2010 11:44 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
I'd be a cranky kitty too
If I had such a horrible ergonomic environment. I’m calling OSHA!
by menckenstein on Aug 31, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Show'em how you get down, son

Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
by Damon O. on Aug 31, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Flashes of greatness
To me, BJ Penn will always stick out as one of the greatest fighters in the sport. He’s not like the flash-in-the pans that arrive quickly and then fade out. He has gone through periods of domination, followed by low-spots.
Personally, I don’t put much stock in his losses at WW, he shouldn’t have been fighting there in the first place. But the lightweight losses are just a failure to take his opponent serious, study tape, and train properly to exploit the weeknesses. I have no doubt that a training camp that is more focused on strategy, would’ve made all the difference in the world.
When you look at other fighters like Matt Hughes, for example. You know that his talent is limited and so is his comeback. But that’s not the case for BJ Penn. He looked out of shape in this fight, admitted he didn’t train that much, and the strategy was non-existent i fyou listened to his corner.
Penn seems to be kinda stuck. SEems to me that he’s afraid of adjusting a strategy to exploit an oppoenents weakness. He should’ve been taking Edgar down all 5 rounds and jabbing to keep distance. Instead, he just did the same things he always did. And he lost because of it.
But, that doesn’t change the fact that he could come back and buzzsaw through the entire division.
BJ, much like Fedor, evolved well ahead of the curve, but then reached a point and stopped. The key difference between the 2 is while BJ sought to challenge himself to the detriment of his record, Fedor chooses to protect his record at the expense of the fans – which is the smarter course, idk…
The BJ that fought GSP was essentially the exact same guy both times, whereas GSP had greatly evolved as a professional fighter in and out of the cage.
Evolving as a professional MMA fighter doesn’t only mean adding new fighting techniques, but adding essential elements like cross-training, diet/nutrition, strength/conditioning, truly breaking down tape of oneself as well as opponents, adding/subtracting specific elements for specific fighters as part of overall game plan design and implementation and the like.
Its not just perfecting your same techniques over and over and bringing the same plan to every fight regardless of opponent.
What worked in 2006 doesn’t work in 2010.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 31, 2010 12:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
Snowden can be right while still calling BJ the best LW ever
It’s more telling that in the history of the division that none of the best to have fought at 155 have records that are free of very glaring blemishes.
We haven’t seen the truly great and dominant LW yet. Maybe Jose Aldo when he eventually makes the move? Who knows. All I know is that it’s impossible to talk about Penn’s greatest victories without bringing up the equally big losses that he’s suffered in his career.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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by Worldisart on Aug 31, 2010 11:48 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Yea we have. His name was BJ Penn.
We haven’t seen the truly great and dominant LW yet.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
How many years undefeated at the weight?
by Matt Mosley on Aug 31, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
8
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Misleading
He didn’t fight at LW for an entire eight years since he lost to Pulver.
by menckenstein on Aug 31, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Misleading???
It was the actual, factual, answer to the question. Your whole “He didn’t fight at LW for an entire eight years since he lost to Pulver”, that is fiction.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
He fought at lightweight in his next fight.
What the hell are you talking about???!!!!
by Matt Mosley on Aug 31, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry
Meant to say “the” entire eight years.
by menckenstein on Aug 31, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
And how many fights at LW in those 8 years?
I count 5. Give me a break.
by Manzanillos Cup on Aug 31, 2010 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Count again
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
7 wins in 8 years. Truly the stuff the greats are made of. Utterly dominant.
by VirtualBalboa on Sep 1, 2010 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Anderson Silva is undefeated at light heavyweight since his first fight there 8 years ago. Clearly, he is the greatest ever in that division.
by VirtualBalboa on Sep 1, 2010 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions
How can you say he was dominant?
It took him 3 tries to get to the top of the mountain, he spent large stretches NOT fighting at LW and most recently has suffered two consecutive losses to a much smaller fighter.
Penn had his moments, no doubt but to describe his career as a LW as dominant is looking at it with rose colored glasses, ignoring glaring holes in his resume as a LW.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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by Worldisart on Aug 31, 2010 11:59 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
How can you use the “he lost to a smaller fighter” argument when he spent 3.5 years being the smaller fighter? The excuse can’t go both ways.
http://www.instrength.com
Many of his biggest fights were against naturally bigger men.So were a lot of his losses.
by Matt Mosley on Aug 31, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
All I'm saying
Is if the contention is that Penn is the one true dominant LW then he should be able to make short work of a guy who should probably be fighting at 145.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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by Worldisart on Aug 31, 2010 12:04 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Who makes short work of Edgar?!
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Jose Aldo
just sayin
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 31, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Anyone but a top wrestler like Maynard is gonna have a hard nights work with Edgar.And he could reverse the Maynard loss yet,as a pretty good wrestler himself.
People shoudn’t judge BJ’s losses to Edgar yet.Let’s see how good Frankie turns out to be first.
by Matt Mosley on Aug 31, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
A truly dominant fighter. These are your terms. And if he doesn’t finish him he at least convincingly beats him rather then let him fight close in the first fight and just seemingly lay down and die in the second.
You may want to ignore the giant blemishes in Penn’s record but that doesn’t mean they exist. Penn like most of the good to great fighters of his generation has a lot of ups and downs in his career. Why should be get a pass where others don’t?
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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by Worldisart on Aug 31, 2010 12:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
A truly dominant fighter
Says you. I’m not willing to discredit Edgar like you are. Every fighter has gaint blemishes. EVERY ONE.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Well I totally disagree with this
BJ Penn has giant blemishes on his record. Other greats – not so much. GSP came back and kicked the asses of people that beat (or almost beat) him. Fedor has lost once in 10 years. Anderson has won 13 straight fights.
by Manzanillos Cup on Aug 31, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
All of those guys have blemishes
Yes, GSP avenged his loss to Serra. But he LOST to Serra. A great wouldn’t lose to someone on Serras level. Fedor got beat twice, had to fight middle weights to keep his career going. Anderson has been beat a few times and looks crappy lately.
Now, I don’t really agree with all of that but it’s easy to paint ANY of our greats in a bad light because of their blemishes. Which is what people are doing to BJ lately.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes and for every blemish those fighters have
BJ has three times as many. BJ Penn doesn’t belong in the same conversation as Fedor, GSP or Anderson.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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What?
He “lost” to Pulver, then avenged it. He lost to Edgar. That’s really it, unless you really want to count him moving up in weight for a challenge against him.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I do count it against him
Moving up in weight for a challenge is great and all, but if you’re going to lose those fights you shouldn’t get credit for doing anything special.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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You should
when you put the fights in context. He beat Matt Hughes when it was impossible, which means a lot more than any loss he got at higher weights. He was rolling Hughes again until injury, many people thought he beat GSP, and he tagged up Machida before it was cool.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes but of those four fights you mentioned, he only won 1
Close is fantastic, and BJ Penn will always be a good story, but a loss is still a loss. You can frame it however you want, HE STILL LOST THOSE FIGHTS.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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Sure he did
but if you take the losses in perspective it’s impressive and really shouldn’t count against him as much as you guys think it should.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Other than Pulver, when has BJ Penn avenged a loss? GSP avenged both of his emphatically. BJ Penn actually does significantly worse in rematches. He’s 1-3-1 in those.
by VirtualBalboa on Sep 1, 2010 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Where did I discredit Frankie?
I merely pointed out that if Penn was truly this dominant, world destroying LW that you seem to think he is/was then he would have convincingly beat Frankie Edgar.
BJ Penn has several, glaring, blemishes on his record that you just seem to be completely refusing to acknowledge.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
Support independent artists
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I merely pointed out that if Penn was truly this dominant, world destroying LW that you seem to think he is/was then he would have convincingly beat Frankie Edgar.
That IS you discrediting Frankie. There is no reason to assume Frankie sucks so bad that a dominant champion should just dismantle him.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't but words in my mouth
I never assumed Frankie sucked, I pointed out that if Penn is DOMINANT then he would have run over Frankie. Dominant doesn’t mean losing close decisions.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
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Yes it does
if the guy your fighting happens to be amazing as well, or a bad stylistic matchup.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously.
BJ beat Matt Hughes. I know that doesn’t mean much to a lot of people these days, but NOBODY could beat Matt Hughes. NOBODY. BJ f’ing ROLLED him.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
8 years undefeated
If you take his losses to Pulver and Uno in perspective, from when they happened, it’s not as damning as you all try to make it seem. BJ Nearly killed Uno, which was a HUGE fight. People forget that.
Fighting Gomi meant more to BJ, who the belt means less to that it does to you, than trying to be UFC champion.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Who cares if it was a smaller fighter?
Frankie has the best style to deal with BJ. He’s lost to only two people in the lightweight division ever since he started in 2001. Large stretches? He fought out of LW for only 2.5 years out of 9 years.
Holy shit.
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 31, 2010 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I read that in Double Rainbow Guy voice
and it made perfect sense. Logic is creating his own narrative of insanity, and can always count on iiowyn and two new guys to rec him for it.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Aug 31, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Come on guy you know damn well that was funny. If I didn’t get it I’d probably write it off too.
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 31, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Double Rainbow Guy? Yeah, it was hilarious.
But calling someone Glenn Beck is basically the new Godwin’s Law violation. It’s a cheap and pathetic ploy that only the simple minded fall for and anybody with half an ounce of sense sees as intellectually deficient.
And if you don’t see what logic’s agenda is, then you’re clearly the one who isn’t getting something.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
But....
calling someone Glenn Beck is basically the new Godwin’s Law violation
Isn’t saying that basically a Godwin’s Law violation? Have we now entered an endless time loop?!
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Quite frankly, I don't care.
I don’t even really agree with Snowden on this, which I stated before the fight in one of Anthony Pace’s posts (as a fanpost here). I think BJ has a hell of a legacy, between that utter destruction of Stevenson, the maniacal laughter/smile during the Kenny sub, and going five rounds in a title fight and only getting hit EIGHT fucking times with his insane pacing between rounds… I think Penn will always be a scary guy in the world of MMA. I won’t forget that, and I believe his legacy is already quite secure.
But logic does this fun thing of being a shit stirrer and trying to create his own sense of things based on “credibility” of being an insider. Truth is, he just spouts shit and some of it sticks to the wall. Most falls off. And if Snowden is Glenn Beck, then he’s some combination of Shabazz and Ed Schultz with some Eldridge Cleaver insanity thrown in.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Honestly I don’t have any political preference I kind of respect the Beck hustle. Who wouldn’t say what he does for 32 mill a year? Get that Glenn Beck Money
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 31, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Why rehash the same stuff in softer terms? So you can argue it some more?
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Aug 31, 2010 11:57 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Yes
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 31, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Snowden Always Wins
Christ, I can’t stop getting sucked into this crap, but I can’t help myself.
Let me pick this apart.
But BJ Penn’s initiial lightweight run in the UFC was ultimately a failure. How could it not be? When given the chance to win the world championship he couldn’t get it done. He lost a decision to Jens Pulver at UFC 35 and fought to a draw with Caol Uno at UFC 41. Everyone was disappointed, including Penn.
The guy was fighting for a UFC title in just his fourth pro fight against a seasoned vet!
He spent several years in kind of a netherworld, fighting for neither Pride or the UFC, biding his time in his brother’s promotion or bouncing around weight classes for K-1.
Biding time in his brother’s promotion? Rumble on the Rock was one of the greatest regional promotions of all time – AND HE BEAT GOMI THERE – a victory you yourself identified as a defining moment for Penn.
After beating reality stars Kenny Florian and Diego Sanchez,
Why this is a rather slimy way to discount the level of competition has fought against! If you think they’re bums, call them bums. Don’t dance around it.
The questions have been answered. BJ Penn was amazing. But he wasn’t one of the greats. Potential matters. Performance matters more.
So UFC titles in two different weight classes is what? Chopped liver?
by MMABookworm on Aug 31, 2010 12:04 PM EDT reply actions 9 recs
Clearly, yes.
So UFC titles in two different weight classes is what? Chopped liver?
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
His win over Hughes was clearly a fluke.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Aug 31, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn't say a fluke
It was obviously decisive, I just think Hughes wised up from that fight and came back smarter the next time.
No he didn't
BJ hurt himself…
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
“The second Hughes fight was a huge reality check,” Penn said.
Penn isn’t even as delusional about his career as his fans. He has admitted he failed to live up to expectations.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 31, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
It was a reality check
And that doesn’t contradict him injuring himself.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 31, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
THE BEST LIGHTWEIGHT OF ALL TIME!
Archie Moore, 194-26-8, 141 KO’s. 1936-63. 28 years active.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
by Warhand on Aug 31, 2010 12:20 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Not sure what you mean.
If you want to know more go to ArchieMore.com.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"

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by Thats It For you! on Aug 31, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Look at that little wrist “Use the strong hand Kanye”
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 31, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Damn! Why do I listen to my Grandfather?
I literally hollered to my Grandpa, "Hey Gramps, Who was the greatest lightweight of all time?(Grandpa loves boxing hates MMA). He replied with no thought or hesitation , “Archie Moore!” Oh well.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
I a fan of BJ when he's "on"
and I don’t hate on the guy, but this thread really shows the discoloration fanboy eyes put on the world. From an objective standpoint, divorcing myself of my liking BJ, Snowden and the few others in this thread argueing similar points, are dead on.
It all boils down to this: BJ is one of the greatest LWs of all time, but thats because the field has never been dominated by any one person for any length of time within the division and across any promotion. He’s is definitely not one of the greatest of all time when it comes to his performances when viewed as a whole. Certain fights were absolutely astounding, but its the historical view that really cements a GOAT.
"After beating reality stars Kenny Florian and Diego Sanchez"
Wow gotta love your loaded words Snowden. You are a journalist so don’t play coy. That is one of the many examples of your intentionally manipulative statements. Im sick of you trolling BloodyElbow.
by ImmortalTechnique92 on Aug 31, 2010 5:54 PM EDT reply actions
We all know Kennly Florian is straight shit right?
by ImmortalTechnique92 on Aug 31, 2010 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions

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