If Frankie Edgar, Gray Maynard and B.J. Penn Are Their Best, Does the UFC Really Have the World's Best Lightweights?
by Kid Nate on Aug 30, 2010 10:25 AM EDT
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Sergio Non makes a strong case that there is a stylistic triangle at the top of the UFC lightweight division:
What UFC 118 didn't provide was any reason to favor Edgar in his upcoming rematch with Maynard.Maynard beat Edgar in 2008 by putting him on his back repeatedly, and there's no reason to doubt his ability to do it again when they fight for the title. Sean Sherk planted Edgar in the third round in their fight last year. Penn, whose wrestling is nowhere near Maynard's level, did it twice on Saturday.
A Maynard championship reign presents a compelling match-up for Penn, who has feasted on grinding wrestlers. Does anyone think Penn can't beat a man who comes from a similar mold as Sherk and Matt Hughes?
One thing I've noticed about MMA fans is that they generally view a triangle as something that reflects a lack of depth at the top of a division. Notice the scorn that has been heaped upon Strikeforce's light heavyweight class because Gegard Mousasi, Muhammed "King Mo" Lawal and Rafael "Feijao" Calvancante have played a round of pass the belt. Instead of just concluding that the three fighters are all quality light heavyweights (although I agree with those who say they shouldn't be top 10, yet), most fans just quickly turn on the fighter who lost the most recent bout.
But the fact that the UFC lightweight title belt is now in the hands of Frankie Edgar, a man who took a one-sided beating at the hands of Gray Maynard, the #1 contender in April, 2008 is making some question who's really on top of the division.
People like Sports Illustrated's Josh Gross:
Edgar's two wins over Penn are hard to ignore. A case could be made for Maynard based on his victory over Edgar. (Their fight will likely determine No. 1 for the foreseeable future.) Third-ranked Gilbert Melendez, the current Strikeforce champion, would give either of the previously mentioned fighters a terrific scrap. Bellator titleholder Eddie Alvarez, a training partner of Edgar's, belongs in the discussion. And then there's the serious talent of Evan Dunham to consider.
...
It's too bad, of course, that we won't see Melendez or Alvarez fight the UFC's. In the meantime, hopefully Strikeforce and Bellator will find a way to bring their champions together; Melendez-Alvarez is one of the most intriguing fights outside the UFC at the moment.
A quick glance at the USAT/SBN Consensus MMA Rankings shows us that although the UFC currently has 6 of the top 10 lightweights undercontract, the #3, 5, 6 and 8 fighters are outside of their control. More importantly, the two pools of lightweight talent -- the UFC and Strikeforce/DREAM/Bellator -- haven't cross-pollinated significantly in years. #13 Takanori Gomi is the biggest cross-over, but he'd already plummeted out of relevance in the Japanese scene with multiple upset losses to little known fighters.
Gomi's run in the UFC hasn't brought any clarity either. First he got smoked by Kenny Florian, then he KTFO'd Tyson Griffin. So all we know is that Gomi, so far at least, isn't at the very highest levels of the UFC 155lb class, but he's no washout either.
The next cross-over fight between the "UFC pool" and the "Strikeforce/DREAM/Bellator" pool will be Roger Huerta vs #6 Eddie Alvarez. Huerta has lost three of his last four, but two of those fights were against #4 Kenny Florian and #7 Gray Maynard, only his loss to Pat Curran is really a knock on his claim to represent a near elite lightweight. But it's a pretty damn big knock.
Regardless, Alvarez vs Huerta is the only measuring stick we'll have to compare the two talent pools for the foreseeable future. In the meantime, we'll have to speculate.
And so far, unlike B.J. Penn, who presented an aura of dominance that made arm chair quarterbacks like myself rate him head and shoulders above the rest of the division. That and the fact that way way way back in 2003 he crushed Takanori Gomi.
Now that Frankie Edgar has definitively shown that's he's got B.J. Penn's number, and yet has not shown that he has the number of Gray Maynard, it's really hard to say that the UFC has the best lightweights in the world. #3 Gilbert Melendez and Alvarez both bring a very similar style of wrestle-boxing to their bouts that Edgar does and are bigger and more powerful. In fact, I'd probably pick either man to beat Edgar.
But then I picked B.J. Penn to beat Frankie Edgar twice so what do I know?
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Frankie Edgar is an interesting case
He’s so often the underdog going into a fight and then defies the odds and wins. At what point does he start getting more credit for his unique style built around his speed and footwork? I want to agree with you and say Melendez, Alvarez and Maynard should all be solid favorites against Frankie, but the same was said about Griffin, Sherk and Penna and now look where we are.
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Speaking only for myself, I think the problem is that he’s a points-fighter. Yes, he’s very talented and has excellent game-planning, but his style doesn’t jive with my idea of a top fighter. He won twice against Penn, but never once did he go for the kill, or threaten to end the fight. In my eyes he’s like a stand-up version of Jon Fitch. I don’t want to take anything away from him (although my previous sentences would not indicate that, ha), but he’s a not a fighter that I personally want to watch.
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by Ephemeral Artery on Aug 30, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Whether or not you want to watch him is irrelevant
At least when it comes to assessing his place in the division. Jon Fitch, I don’t care if you’re entertained by his fights, he’s unquestionably the number 2 WW in the world.
Entertainment is great, but it’s not a factor when talking about the sporting side of things.
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You’re asking why people put him as an underdog, and I say because he doesn’t finish fights.
"The common denominator of the Universe is not harmony, but chaos, hostility, and murder."
"Opinionated weather forecasters telling me it's going to be a miserable day. Miserable to who? I quite like a bit of drizzle, so stick to the facts!"
"Shoot him again... his soul is still dancing!"
by Ephemeral Artery on Aug 30, 2010 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
If that is the reason
Than that’s just beyond stupid. It’s an illustration of ignorance, not necessarily by you, but by people who think that way.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
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by Worldisart on Aug 30, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t see it that way. If he has one way to finish fights at the elite level (points), and other fighters have multiple ways, who’s at the advantage?
And you can say that entertainment is does not concern the sporting side of things, and that’s your opinion, but I find it to be a very strident opinion. Someone who bops around for five rounds or someone who gets it to the ground and grinds it out is not something I particularly want to root for. I can admire their talent and not necessarily want to be a fan.
"The common denominator of the Universe is not harmony, but chaos, hostility, and murder."
"Opinionated weather forecasters telling me it's going to be a miserable day. Miserable to who? I quite like a bit of drizzle, so stick to the facts!"
"Shoot him again... his soul is still dancing!"
by Ephemeral Artery on Aug 30, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
That is a very elementary way of looking at favorites
If one guy has a REALLY GOOD way of finishing fights and said fighter can nullify those “multiple ways” opponents can win fights, then that guy is the clear favorite. Jon Fitch or Frankie Edgar should be considered underdogs because they’re decision prone, they should be considered favorites because they prove time and time and time and time again that what they do is most often better than what the guys they face do.
by Doc Martin 28 on Sep 16, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Finish Schminish
The whole fight, my wife kept saying “But why can’t Frankie finish BJ?”
My answer? “Why can’t BJ finish Frankie?”
by pancakehead on Aug 30, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
So apparently unfinished BJs are disappointing to both sexes… who knew?
by TMadeBurner on Aug 30, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 16 recs
Everyone is acting like
Frankie should have finished BJ no problem in the latter rounds of the fight. BJ has only been finished twice in his career; both by welterweights and one of those was a his corner throwing the towel in.
I said it already in another post but I will say it again: BJ has the best chin in LW and possibly WW. Frankie flattened Matt Veach a few months ago and Veach is a large LW.
His decisions are not like Fitch and Shields. Especially in this last fight with BJ. He mixes up punches, kicks and takedowns. He was hammering Penn on the feet and even jumped into BJ’s guard in an effort to finish him. Everyone knows how dangerous BJ’s guard can be and Frankie still jumped into it.
Frankie also escaped being briefly mounted and giving up his back. That is unbelievable!
Unfortunately for Frankie he is going to face another guy with a reputation for having a great chin and eventually catch a lot of crap if he can’t finish Maynard.
by mmaaddict on Aug 30, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm with you man
I don’t know why people are suddenly acting like Frankie Edgar fights are sooo hard to get through.
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
Honestly.....
I dont want to see Maynard take the title and go on a tear. He is fully capable of defeating Frankie and I cant see someone else in the division out wrestling him anytime soon….
He could hold the belt for a few title defenses…. and those cards would have to be stacked because Maynard is not even close to being a good draw. Could he become the next worst draw as a champion other than Sylvia? Its possible…
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by DJ Pullout on Aug 30, 2010 10:12 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Dont Trouble Yourself With Such Weighty Issues.
The UFC has a well paid Marketing Staff to solve dilemma’s that you suggest.
Why sully Maynard when all you need to say is “I am anti Maynard, a hater”. You attempt to mask it with such BS as “worst draw”, and blah blah blah.
Maynard is man enough to beat everyone he’s faced, you should be man enough to, at least, iden tify yourself for what you are, a Maynard hater.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: diplomacy simply doesn’t work.
"The common denominator of the Universe is not harmony, but chaos, hostility, and murder."
"Opinionated weather forecasters telling me it's going to be a miserable day. Miserable to who? I quite like a bit of drizzle, so stick to the facts!"
"Shoot him again... his soul is still dancing!"
by Ephemeral Artery on Aug 30, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
As a Maynard fan
I can see DJ Pullout’s point. UFC’s excellent marketing staff will need to work overtime to make him a viable draw. The irony is that he has a really interesting and likable personality outside of the cage, having seen a few of his interviews and other random videos.
"The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world..."
Jon Fitch is a funny, down to earth, well-adjusted guy, too. how’s that worked out for him? When push comes to shove and they’re in front of the cameras that the public-at-large actually sees, they just spout the typical athlete-speak answers. in terms of being a viable draw, It’s OK to not finish fights all the time, but you better have at least one of the following things going:
-Pretty (it’s still weird to me how, in a fanbase dominated by males, good looks go such a long way, and looking menacing like Maynard only matters if you’re a finisher…what i’m trying to say is, y’all a bunch of mancrushers).
-Have a way with words, a la Sonnen
-At least leave your decisioned opponents looking battered and shattered
-At least give the impression you’re trying to finish
Maynard has none. And the only one he is in complete control of is the talking part, and I don’t get the impression from Maynard that, while a plenty intelligent guy, he’s much of a wordsmith or crowd manipulator.
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Aug 30, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
maynard fan
i like badass wrestlers, but i CRINGED when gray spoke at the pre-108 press conference.
a reporter asked something to the tune of, “what insights can you give us before the fight?”
gray’s response was, “uhh a plus c equals d or f or e or something. that was a joke by the way. man, i don’t know, it’s a fight. i can’t give you any secrets. i just want to get out there and fight.”
YOUR FIRST FIGHT IN 8 MONTHS ON A PPV CARD AND THAT’S WHAT YOU SAY?!?!?
This is a little like MMA math right?
Will Edgar defend against Maynard? We will see. That’s all you can say, right? Can we honestly say Edgar is the same fighter he was when he fought Maynard? He got out of full mount from fuckin’ BJ Penn for Christsake! Will maynard be able to catch up w/ Edgar (speed wise) He doesn’t seem much faster than BJ, right?
As for the others (Alverez, Melendez, Aoki) aren’t we just guessing/speculating. God, I love this sport and can not wait to see this unfold.
by F'n Clownshoes on Aug 30, 2010 10:13 AM EDT reply actions
Will maynard be able to catch up w/ Edgar (speed wise) He doesn’t seem much faster than BJ, right?
Assuming that Edgar fought a “fast” version of Penn, which I don’t believe it was.
by SimplePsych on Aug 30, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Excellent Read
And I agree on pretty much all points. I’d venture to say, however, that the Edgar who eventually rematches Grey in a few months will be a much different fighter from the one who got ragdolled in early 2008. Frankie has proven himself a master of implementing a gameplan and sticking to it, and knowing Maynard will be coming with a “feel it out on the feet, shoot a double” strategy I see him making the nessassary adjustments.
Can he beat Maynard? I don’t know. He may not be the favourite. But neither was he vs. Penn and he looked better with each passing minute in those fights. Don’t count out Frankie’s fight IQ and grit just yet.
And I’d pretty much punch a baby to see Alvarez vs. Melendez.
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Edgar is a good fighter, but lets not get carried away. We wont really know what these fights mean til a few years down the line. Remember when everyone was making a big deal of Rashad kicking Chuck’s ass? Now, in hindsight, we realize that was just the burnt toast reanimated corpse of what was once the Iceman, does that overhand right carry the same weight now that it did then? If BJ goes on a tear, then we will have a better idea of what these fights mean…..although they still may not mean much, and could just be a stylistic mismatch that exist in their own universe. Ken Norton kicked Ali’s ass 3 times and no one considers him a top 30 HW, he just had the style to beat Ali. For the record, I would make this same post about Sonnen/Silva, lets see which Anderson we are really talking about here.
by Hutchy on Aug 30, 2010 10:19 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Ken Norton would certainly make a top 30 heavyweight list. He has tons of relevant and important wins aside from the Ali fights. His obliteration of the hyped Bobick, Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Young, Tex Cobb – He might not make the top 20, but he’d definitely be ahead of a number of former heavyweight champs like Braddock, Johansson, Terrell, Ellis, Spinks, Schmeling, Sharkey, Carnera, Burns, etc.
by VirtualBalboa on Aug 30, 2010 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
good article
i think the lightweight division is the most compelling weight class in MMA right now. I do think people need to give Frankie his props though, he has only gotten better and when he beats Maynard in less than 5 rounds maybe he will get the respect he deserves. Right now Frankie deserves the #1 ranking.
Considering Frankie has shown absolutely zero ability to finish in his career, and MAynard has never been in anything remotely resembling serious trouble in his career, I’d say thats pretty unlikely.
Bocek and Veach are his only finishes in the UFC
Toronto FC - Where road games are forfeited and we STILL have no idea how to play from behind.
Aoki needs to add a few dimensions to his game
Before he can be considered a top level guy. You can’t have great BJJ, no takedowns and no striking and be a top fighter, I don’t care how good your BJJ is.
Aoki is a last generation fighter
He can’t consistently hang with top fighters right now, and the up and comers are passing him by. Unless he can round out his game this late in his career, he’ll never be the guy LW’s are judged by.
by Doc Martin 28 on Sep 16, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Gilbert Melendez and Alvarez both bring a very similar style of wrestle-boxing to their bouts that Edgar does and are bigger and more powerful. In fact, I’d probably pick either man to beat Edgar.
I disagree and believe that Edgar has improved so much as a mixed martial artist that he would beat any of the guys you mention, however I think out of the top guys Maynard poses the biggest problems for Frankie, but still I think Frankie will match Gray pretty much in the wrestling dept, but win the stand up against any other 155er in the world.
Frankie Edgar is on top right now and for the forseeable future and I’m looking forward to the rematch with Maynard.
Fear is temporary regret is for ever.
Frankie’s MMA wrestling is very good, but is a notch or two below Gray’s. Maynard also outboxed Frankie when they first fought. Maynard is a very difficult match up for edgar. However, given that Maynard can’t finish anyone and Edgar never gets tired, the fact their rematch will be a 5 round fight might give Edgar a bit more of a chance than he’d have in a non-title fight.
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by The Darkness on Aug 30, 2010 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Edgar’s movement, boxing, and even his wrestling (in terms of using it effectively in MMA) is leaps and bounds above what he shows against Maynard back then.
It’s not as simple as saying Maynard’s wrestling is better than Edgar’s because he’s bigger and stronger. GSP has the best functional wrestling in the UFC, and is a perfect example of how speed and adaptation to the context of MMA can make you outwrestle world class wrestlers like Koscheck, despite him admitting that he’s got a long way to even match the pure wrestling of the best Canadians.
I don’t think anyone is claiming Maynard is a better MMA Wrestler than Edgar because he’s bigger and stronger, although that can only help him.
To me, Gray is more Chael Sonnen than GSP – he has very good wrestling which he has adapted well to MMA, but he lacks the submission defense and offense part of the complete MMA Wrestler.
Edgar appears to have improved considerably in the 2.5 years since they fought, but idk if it will be enough.
Should be a fun fight…
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by BigDNotDallas on Aug 30, 2010 1:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
“It’s not as simple as saying Maynard’s wrestling is better than Edgar’s because he’s bigger and stronger”
I’m not sure I see your point since I didn’t based my assessment of Maynard’s wrestling on his size and strength advantage. Maynard was a far more decorated wrestler than Edgar and it shows, IMO. He has an excellent shot and has pretty much done whatever he wanted to in the take down dept and he’s fought some guys with good defensive wrestling (including Edgar and Florian). Edgar put on a great performance against Penn but Maynard is a much better wrestler than Penn, who is so confident in his ability to remain upright that he more or less allows people to grab his leg, effectively daring them to try to take him down. That obviously didn’t work to his advantage. In any case, it should be a good fight. I think Maynard’s boxing is criminally underrated , perhaps because his performances are so generally uninspiring, on a visceral level at least. I’m looking forward to the fight (as well as seeing what the betting line opens at).
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by The Darkness on Aug 30, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
i think gray is a better fighter than edgar
… and we saw it in the first fight. their skillsets are exactly the same – wrestlebox.
maynard takes it in a dogfight.
As will be Rua-Machida-Rashad (unless Rua manages to consistently sweep Rashad)…
At least until Jon Jones comes and owns LHW for years to come…
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by BigDNotDallas on Aug 30, 2010 11:23 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
until he outgrows the division
Jones will learn, as I did, when he’s about 27 that the pounds just accumulate quickly and won’t come off. his will be muscle where mine was fat though!
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What if he learns to cut weight like Gleison Tibau? That guy cuts like 17% of his weight, which is obscene.
Didn’t realize he cut that much, I consider 15% to be pretty much the upper limit of safe for most well trained guys, although some can safely (well, that’s relative I guess) get around 17%. Personally, I prefer to see more like 12%-14%. Then again, the guys I’ve worked with aren’t even at Gleison’s level.
I’ve heard stories from people I trust of guys cutting well over 20%, but that requires serious pre-cut testing & continuous close testing & monitoring for those who can somewhat safely do it – that’s too much for almost anybody IMCO…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 30, 2010 1:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Rampage-Liddell-Wanderlei was the BEST triangle.
"You hear people say, 'You're the greatest,' and all this stuff. It's BS. It's fake, it's all fake. You've just got to keep training as hard as you can. The only thing real is the fight, everything else is fake." - BJ Penn
by crazybones on Aug 30, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That triangle doesn't really work well
Considering the Wanderlei/Chuck fight happened in a different era than the Liddell/Rampage fight and the Rampage/Wanderlei fight. By the time Rampage and Wand came to the UFC there was a clear heirachy: Rampage>Chuck>Wand
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by Neil Manich on Aug 30, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Poor Frankie
Guy goes out and does what nobody outside his team thought he could do, TWICE, and still can’t get full credit.
I thought he had no chance going into the first fight. By the end I thought it could have gone either way.
Going into the rematch I thought he once again had no chance. There was no way BJ was going to let him dart in and out and land a few quick takedowns of little consequence. Whoops.
Dude’s pretty f’n good. Maybe even great but that needs to be proven over the course of a career, but for now I don’t see how a reputable site could not rank him #1 after back to back victories over BJ and he shut him out in the last fight.
by TMadeBurner on Aug 30, 2010 10:42 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
D’oh. Was beaten to the punch about the ranking.
by TMadeBurner on Aug 30, 2010 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
I fear for the Maynard era. Please save us, Evan Dunham.
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Aug 30, 2010 10:47 AM EDT reply actions
Evan Dunham? You know he got tooled by Escudero until he slapped the armbar at the end of the fight. Please dont tell me there is Dunham hype a brewin in the waters. Lol
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by xFenixKnightx on Aug 30, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Terrible argument
“You know he was losing right up to the point where he won right?”
Point is, he won and he’s shown improvement since.
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Come on, Escudero won the first but Dunham clearly won the 2nd and was dominating the 3rd before the stoppage. He also completely dominated Tyson Griffin, which no one else had done to that point. Dunham’s the real deal.
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Agreed
Can’t wait for his fight with Sherk, that fight should really be his coming out party. Then square him up with Soitropolus and you’ve got yourself a number one contenders fight!
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I think Snuffy needs another win before he’s worthy of a # 1 contenders fight. I hate to say it, but Kenny Florian might be the perfect challenge for George right now. But I completely agree about Dunham/Sherk, it’s gonna be a great fight.
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George vs the worst nickname in MMA?
Any chance “J-Lau” earned himself a fight with that much relevance to the division? He was in beast mode Saturday.
by TMadeBurner on Aug 30, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s a super interesting matchup, but Lauzon’s loss to Stout really derailed any push he was going to get for now. Not to take anything away from Joe, but a lot of guys would steamroll Ruediger like that. He’s just not that good. I’d try to match up Lauzon with a guy like Jim Miller or Tyson Griffin. Maybe even Pellegrino when he’s all healed up.
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You're right
You just can’t give Lauzon a mulligan on the Stout fight. I think he’d probably tap Sam if given another opportunity but oh well.
I like the idea of a Miller fight, who I thought lost to Bocek.
Joe was actually on a sports radio show here in the greater Boston area this morning. He’s the type of guy you’d want on those shows, great ambassador for the sport.
by TMadeBurner on Aug 30, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
I love the idea of G-Sot vs Kenny
George is making his run for the title, and he’s built it off a number of impressive wins and dominations (barring his getting lazy the last 10 seconds of his fight with Pelligrino). Kenny is currently a question mark, and he needs a win over an up and comer to stay in the top mix while Gsot needs a win over a top ranked guy to secure a chance at the title. I feel it would be a fight where neither fighter was clearly going to win.
And the sadist in me would also like to see G-Sot vs Penn. Much love for Penn when he’s turned on, but I really wouldn’t mind seeing G-Sot give him a real challenge on the ground and quite possibly win.
The UFC may also throw Gomi in against G-Sot, which, imo, wouldn’t benefit George winning as much as it would Gomi but the fight could be dynamite.
i see only him as a matchup that could be truly dangerous for Gray Maynard
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Aug 30, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Completely agree. Sytlistically, he is interesting for Edgar and Maynard. He has solid striking, underrated wrestling and very very good BJJ. Not sure if he’ll get a shot soon though. If he beats Sherk I think he should
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by StevenGiles on Aug 30, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
UFC isn't better so much as it is deeper
Tough for Alvarez or Melendez to argue that they’re the best because the guys they fight, night in and night out, aren’t as good. That’s what makes a great UFC champion – taking on #1 challengers again and again who are good. Often, coming into these fights, the challengers are underrated (like Edgar), but the reality is they are all very dangerous.
So although I can’t say who is #1, there isn’t much question which organization is #1 – and that organizations top fighters will necessarily get more respect.
Melendez' recent opponents
are pretty respectable. Josh Thomson, Mitsuhiro Ishida and Shinya Aoki are world-class competitors.
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You gotta also take into account that Strikeforce is willing to put their reputation on the line by doing cross-organizational fights. Melendez-Aoki was a big risk by Coker, and that’s something that the UFC would never do.
After seeing Brock’s horrible striking defense in this last two fights (Mir was just too mashed up to take advantage), I’m now sure that Fedor and Overeem would beat him. It’s probably a moot point because Dos Santos is probably the best HW in the world, but still shows you how the UFC is using its indisputable monopoly on top talent in some classes (WW, MW, LHW) to disparage outside talent in LW and HW.
No love for Ben Henderson.
I’m thinking the 155 WEC Champ is getting overlooked a little bit there to not even get a mention.
Just BE.
Ben Henderson is nowhere near the discussion of who is the best LW in the world. And why should he be? Based on wins over Varner and Cerrone? Nah, I love me some Bendo but even as a borderline top ten fighter I think he’s overvalued.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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He doesn’t get a mention because he can’t do anything more in the WEC. I certainly wouldn’t rank him in the top 10 until he proves it by beating someone in the top ten.
I don’t doubt his talent or ability but he’s just not top 10 yet.
by TMadeBurner on Aug 30, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
I think you are reading something in my comments that isn’t there. Ben Henderson is the 155 lb. WEC Champion. All the champions from other promotions got a mention. I never said he would beat all those guys. Hell I never said he would beat any of those guys. I just said I think as the 155 WEC Champ he was getting overlooked a little bit to not even get a mention.
Just BE.
the WEC lightweight division is a very very good
regional division, nothing less, nothing more. their dominance at FW and BW distorts perceptions.
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I think the reasoning by most is that the WEC division plays second string to the UFC. If they end up in the WEC then they obviously weren’t good enough for the UFC. Or at least the top levels of the UFC’s division. I’m not saying that is the truth of it, but that is how many view the situation.
I see Henderson (as well as Cerrone and Varner) having some really fun fights in the UFC if the divisions were ever merged. Maybe they won’t be world beaters there, but I do think they should be in the picture.
he shouldn't be over looked,
but will continue to be until he moves up to the UFC. it sucks but it’s true
by F'n Clownshoes on Aug 30, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
I would be curious as to how well Ben Henderson would do matched up against Gil, Edgar, Maynard, etc.
But fighting the same, 3-4 top light weights in the WEC time and time again, the talent is just not there.
Champion or not, I think Ben should move up to the UFC
by devious1 on Aug 30, 2010 11:04 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
he's a prospect for sure
but right now he’s overrated at #10. maybe someday Ben will make waves, he’s very young yet, but he’s not a big dog now.
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I agree ben hasn’t done much but i still think he would beat Edgar.
Goldberg on Leben: One thing's for sure--he really did break that door on the Ultimate Fighter.
Rogan: uh...yeah.
Really?!
Based on what? Beating C-level fighters in Cerrone and Varner?
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
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Edgar deserves the praise, he just plain schooled the “prodigy” and still no love? SMH
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Twitter Handle = @xFenixKnightx
Agreed! I Was There, It Was A Thing Of Beauty.
Maynard was masterful as well.
Melendez proved he's top 5 by beating Aoki
But aoki has sub par standup and would get tooled in BJJ by BJ. So Melendez right now is the weakest of the arguments,
Alvarez is a scary dude, but I see Huerta winning. That fight will really determine both’s place in LW rankings.
Even with the love triangle, I’d pick BJ, Gray, and Frankie to beat up on Eddie or Gil. Frankie is a faster version of Melendez, and Gray would be able to dominate the wrestling of either.
I feel like Edgar still gets no respect, and I’m hoping he beats Gray, even though I am among the few that actually likes Maynard.
What someone did mention earlier is that the UFC LW division is BY FAR the deepest of any other org, so these guys all have been facing ridiculous competitions for much longer. If you put BJ’s, Frankie’s, and Gray’s wins against Gil’s or Eddie’s, they’re complete levels above in terms of competition faced.
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
Gray- Dennis Siver, Rich Clementi, Jim Miller, Roger Huerta, Nate Diaz, Kenny Florian
Frankie- Deividas Taurosevicius, Jim Miller, Tyson Griffin, Mark Bocek, Spencer Fisher, Hermes Franca, (L) Maynard, Sean Sherk, Matt Veach, BJ Penn (twice)
Eddie- Joachim Hansen, Tatsuya Kawajiri, (L) Aoki, Toby Imada, Katsunori Kikuno, Josh Neer
Gil- Clay Guida, Tatsuya Kawajiri, Mitsuhiro Ishida (L and W), Josh Thomson (L and W), Rodrigo Damm, Shinya Aoki
Tell me WHO has the stronger strength of wins amongst those four. It’s Gray and Frankie by a landslide. There is no disputing the strength of the UFC’s LW division
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 30, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
except that every reputable ranking site out there
ranked Hansen, Kawajiri, Aoki and Ishida above any of the UFC guys mentioned except Sherk and Florian. It’s not really fair since they didn’t get a chance to compete with the PRIDE/DREAM pool of talent, but they didn’t have the big name wins to move up.
And as we saw when Gomi destroyed Griffin, it’s not a gimme when a top UFC guy faces even a washed out former top PRIDE guy.
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by Kid Nate on Aug 30, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think it’s BJ, who hasn’t grappled seriously (to my knowledge at least) for about a decade, who would likely get tooled by a guy who just won his weight class at the ADCCs in 2007. It would be interesting to see, but BJ’s ground skills have had to have atrophied since he won the Mundials.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Aug 30, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Huh? Aoki wasn’t even at the 2007 ADCCs, was he? I thought he was only there in 2005 and lost in the quarters.
http://www.instrength.com
oops
you’re right. I’m not sure where I acquired that bit of misinformation. Apparently Aoki won the Japanese ADCC (whatever that is) in 2005. I’m not sure why I thought Aoki was so well credentialed.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Aug 30, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Edgar is #1.
He beat Penn, twice. TWICE. And he made Penn look even worse their second bout. Too small for the division? Probably lose to Maynard a second time? Who cares. Right now, at this moment, he’s #1. Four months later, is four months later. If Maynard takes the belt at that time, then so be it. Before, people weren’t giving Edgar his due based off what he apparently didn’t do against Penn (that is, win, despite all judges scoring it as such), and now he’s not getting his due based off what he hasn’t yet done in the future (which is lose to Maynard again). WTF? It’s time to give Edgar the benefit of the doubt. I think the little dude has earned it.
Agreed. A lot of people are still acting like Penn handed the fight to him.. He didn’t. Frankie beat him, and beat him badly. He’s the number 1 lightweight in the world, no question about it.
http://www.instrength.com
I think a lot of people are in the same camp as I am. that is: Frankie did clearly top BJ now, but It wasn’t exactly like BJ had trouble taking him down, and where BJ took risks like passing guard and going to mount, Maynard will just sit on him staying just active enough to prevent standups, causing my ears to bleed with anger
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Aug 30, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree.
FWIW I think the UFC has found themselves a little triangle. I think:
Maynard beats Edgar who beats Penn who beats Maynard
(unless Penn got old as much as Edgar has his number)
The other, it is really tough to say how the other guys stack up without any crossover.
Melndez and Alvarez have a legit are top LWs and if they fought each other, the winner would probably earn a number 1 ranking. That isn’t going to happen either though so we will be left with a bunch of questions.
On the whole, I say the UFC has the best roster of LW’s and probably the best 1 or 2 in the world. That said, I think guys like Alavarez, Melendez, Thomson, etc… could hang with anyone. Aoki, not so sure, though he obviously could compete anywhere.
The level of competition in the UFC is what makes their fighters the best in each respective division. Melendez and Alvarez are great, but they’re not going to have a claim to that #1 spot so long as they’re fighting outside of the UFC. Their list of legitimate opponents is much shorter than at the top of the UFC’s lightweight division, plain and simple. And how can Edgar not be the clear #1? He defeated Sean Sherk and B.J. Penn TWICE in the span of just over a year. Those wins mean something, no matter how many people want to discredit what Penn and Sherk have done. And if Maynard beats him a second time, he’ll have earned that #1 ranking.
the only person who’s trying to discredit Penn is Snowden. Everyone else just recognizes that Edgar is awesome.
And Sean Sherk is a beast, plain and simple. The years may’ve caught up with him and trying to box with his TRex arms, but if that guy went back to the GNP style he used to have, he’d be a force at LW. He’s had to cope with a lot of devastating injuries in the past two years, but I expect him back.
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 30, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
devastating injuries and age 37 do not suggest a successful “comeback” or even a return to previous style. anybody else thinking that Sherk’s switch to T-rex boxing has more to do with shot knee ligaments than has been stated?
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Aug 30, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s what I’m worried about for Sherk, and it’s been something I’ve heard from people here in Minnesota about him as well. That fight with Dunham at 119 is a huge challenge coming off of the injuries and being out of action for nearly a year and a half, but if he can win that fight he can still find some life in the division. But I agree that’s a huge “if” and it’s nowhere near a guarantee that he returns to even 80% of the fighter he used to be.
by Jamie Penick on Aug 30, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Underdog Champion.
If Edgar comes in as the underdog against Maynard, will that be the first time a champion has defended twice consecutively as the underdog? I know being the champion doesn’t always mean that much in terms of odds, but it seems a little strange seeing the champion repeatedly coming into a defense as the underdog.
He has to come in as the underdog
lines are determined solely by betting. The safe bet is to assume that Gray, who already holds a win over Frankie, will be able to pull it off. I bet the line eventually falls to even for Gray and like +100 for Frankie, or even across the board.
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 30, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Although I favor Gray in the rematch, I actually think that Edgar will open as a favorite on the strength of his impressive victories against Penn.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Aug 30, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
YESSSS
Penn vs. Melvin NOW. I need it. I NEED IT.
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 30, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s only if he gets dumb, or if BJ can get him down. Melvin has proved that he has developed somewhat capable sub defense since moving to Jackson’s.
But even if he gets subbed, the first 3 minutes will be the pinnacle of awesomeness.
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 30, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Well I do think it’s possible to have a Penn, Maynard and Edgar triangle where Edgar owns Penn, Maynard owns Edgar and Penn owns Maynard. I think BJ has all the tools to beat anyone at 155 but he doesn’t use them. No kicks to mix things up, no body shots (just head hunting), lack of aggression (mostly counters) and finally no submission attempts off his back even though he some of the best jits in mma. I think he needs a new camp because his corner was AWFUL during that fight.
by Johnnynumber5 on Aug 30, 2010 11:27 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
agreed.
I think the fact that most people referred to it as a bad decision in the first place and BJ knew that he wasn’t 100% contributed to him undertraining. He is still young enough that he can find a better camp, go back to training with Marinovich, and put on some weight he can reemerge in the division. I don’t care what anyone says, I think the Penn that beat Diego Sanchez would be able to beat any LW in history. He just didn’t look the same in the Frankie fights. The Penn that beat Diego was SCARY good, fast, aggressive, and strong. He was peaking as an athlete.
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 30, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
and that is not to take a single thing away from Frankie, who handily beat BJ. Even an undertrained Penn could take on most LW fighters from any org. Frankie had the recipe to win, faster boxing and better cardio to maintain a much faster pace. It was his workmanship that won the fight, not talent.
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 30, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
How good of an indicator of UFC talent is Huerta really?
The only quality lightweiht he ever fought and beat was Clay Guida, and that was an extrememly close fight. One in which Clay won the first two rounds. If Alvarez dominates him what does it really say? That Alvarez could run through Leonard Garcia?
Also, I fully think Gilbert Melendez is the best lightweight fighter in the world now. Frankie deserves the number 1 rankin, and he’s a great great fighter, but I think Melendez wins that fight.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Melendez truly has not beat anyone except a completely one dimensional Aoki to earn that. Look above to my strength of record breakdown.
I would take Jamie Varner in a fight against Gil
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 30, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
I think Varner hits harder and is much larger, with a better wrestling pedigree. As much as I hate Varner, his boxing is fantastic for MMA.
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 30, 2010 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Gil’s MMA wrestling is better and he has an even nicer jab than Varner. Gil’s also much more durable and mentally tough than Varner. I think there’s a reason The Worm is in the WEC…he can’t hang with the UFC LW class. He doesn’t have the heart.
http://www.instrength.com
I think objectivity plays a huge part in this argument. Varner took a legitimate knee when he was grounded from the Cowboy, and Shalorus kicked Varner’s nuts into his stomach. Other than that, he’s shown no mental weakness, and thoroughly dominated his opponents. the Shalorus draw was complete BS.
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 30, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
He tapped faster than Jake Rosholt when Bendo locked him up in the guillotine. Same in the Franca fight (alothough that was a sick armbar). He whines incessantly, bitches about guys using good gameplans against him, and I still don’t know if that Cerrone knee was legit. I will always believe he took the easy way out.
Either way, even if Varner fought at his best, he’d still get worked by Gil.
http://www.instrength.com
aside from everything you dislike about Varner- Henderson has submitted a bunch of tough guys from that guillotine, and Varner tapped quickly yes.
He CLEARLY got hit by an illegal knee and said he could not see against Cerrone. The illegal knee wasn’t even what won him the fight- the fight went to the cards, and Jamie won on the cards. Its still a legit win.
God I hate that I’m arguing on Varner’s side.
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 30, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
You keep talking about me not liking him – where have I even said that? I’m assessing his skills and his talk evenly. You’re going overboard with your praise for the guy, that’s all. He’s not even sniffing the top 10 in this lifetime, and there’s no way he beats Gilbert Melendez. He couldn’t beat BEN HENDERSON.
http://www.instrength.com
Agree. Gil never ever gives up. In a five round fight, I think he wins in fairly dominant fashion.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Aug 30, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I take that back, Josh Thomson is definitely a quality opponent, but Gil’s wins are still not near Frankie’s
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 30, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Well of course Frankie has better wins. BJ Penn and BJ Penn are better wins that ANYONE IN THE WORLD has right now. But you’re crazy if you don’t think Melendez would give Frankie a war.
"You hear people say, 'You're the greatest,' and all this stuff. It's BS. It's fake, it's all fake. You've just got to keep training as hard as you can. The only thing real is the fight, everything else is fake." - BJ Penn
I didn’t say that, but i think Frankie would definitely come out on top. He beat Sherk and Griffin, who are just as strong of wrestlers, and BJ, who is a much better boxer.
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 30, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
You're crazy for that one
Melendez would own every aspect of that fight.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
by Neil Manich on Aug 30, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
submission defense maybe, boxing definitely not, and who can tell with the wrestling. It would be asinine to say Gil would dominate Varner.
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 30, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Then I’m asinine, because I think Varner gets completely worked. Varner can’t even beat guys like Kamal Shalorus, how’s he going to outwork Gilbert Melendez?
http://www.instrength.com
Varner won the Shalorus fight for SURE. He almost took Shalorus head off multiple times. I dislike Varner greatly and i’ll say that. Cerrone is one of my fav fighters and Varner was dismantling him. He got caught in a VERY slick guillotine by Ben, who did the same to Cerrone. Varner is legit, and hits very, very, very hard. I think he beats Gil by TKO
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 30, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I had Shalorus winning the fight, and the point deduction made it a draw. Kamal took round 2 and 3.
Varner by TKO? Wow. Just wow. Gil’s never come close to being finished and JAMIE VARNER’s the man to do it? Sorry man, we’re gonna have to agree to disagree on this, because you’ll never convince me that a mid-tier LW is going to beat the proven # 3 guy in the world.
http://www.instrength.com
I agree, Varner will never be relevant
I thought he lost to Shalorus as well. He may lose to Cerrone and I think he would even lose to Shane Roller. I think Henderson deserves discussion, but lets get the crybaby, whining, excuse master off this topic already
by SimplePsych on Aug 30, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
i mean, that's blatant fighter bashing.
And he would OWN roller. OWN.
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 30, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Fighter bashing?
He just pointed out exactly what Jamie Varner has done. The truth is not fighter bashing.
http://www.instrength.com
i’ve already said i dislike Varner, but there is no reason to add insult to injury. Its popular to jump on Varner and assume all of these things- maybe he’s a dick, but he’s definitely also a victim of unfavorable circumstances.
Anyways, noone is getting anywhere here. Have a good one?
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 30, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think you're on some great drugs
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by Kid Nate on Aug 30, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I wish. Gil is awesome, but He won’t be able to take Varner down, and he doesn’t hit as hard as Varner. The one thing he has is better sub defense. At some point, Varner will catch Gil and knock him out. Gil hasn’t exactly shown he’s invincible, the L to Kawajiri was only like 2 years ago.
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 30, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I dunno if Melendez beating Edgar even makes him "the best"
The entire top quadrant of the 155 division is all kinds of fucked up. It reminds me of 205 like 2 years back. I mean, look at this:
Edgar
Maynard
Penn
Melendez
Thomson
Alvarez
I could see any of these guys beating anyone else. Well, except Maynard over Penn.
"You hear people say, 'You're the greatest,' and all this stuff. It's BS. It's fake, it's all fake. You've just got to keep training as hard as you can. The only thing real is the fight, everything else is fake." - BJ Penn
Is that Josh Thomson you put in there as the top quadrant? His last impressive win was over 2 years ago. He is ranked #20 and looking at his two wins in the last 2 years there really isn’t a case to be made for him to be ranked any higher.
Just BE.
I’m kind of bad with rankings, but I’m putting him up there based on his two fights with Melendez. He’s definitely of that caliber.
"You hear people say, 'You're the greatest,' and all this stuff. It's BS. It's fake, it's all fake. You've just got to keep training as hard as you can. The only thing real is the fight, everything else is fake." - BJ Penn
Just look at the list of who Josh Thomson has fought.
Maybe I’m confused but looking at who Josh Thomson has fought I don’t see him as that caliber. The one and only big win he has is Gilbert Melendez. I just don’t think one big win over Gilbert Melendez over 2 years ago is enough to put him in that discussion and to keep him there without him beating someone else of note to prove he belongs there.
Just BE.
He’s also been injured and has had a lot of inactivity. I’d put Aoki in the upper tier before Thomson.
by Johnnynumber5 on Aug 30, 2010 1:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I could certainly see Maynard beating Penn, I'm not sure where this meme started...
BJ does not appear to have the TDD or BJJ of all things he had even a couple of years ago.
I’m afraid he’s had too many cupcake training camps & training partners combined with too much believing what everyone said about him.
If he’s going to turn things around, he’s going to have to start by getting involved with a seriously legit camp (like Jackson’s) and go from there.
Unfortunately BJ, like Rampage, seems content to rest on their laurels and bask in the glow of their sycophants rather than do what has to be done to evolve as a fighter…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 30, 2010 2:09 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Agreed. It seems odd to assume that a guy who’s a better wrestler, and IMO, boxer than Edgar would lose to Penn. He seems like just the sort of fighter that Penn has trouble with.
I agree that Penn should go to Jackson’s (although he’s very unlikely to do so). Penn actually has, for some fights, trained with Team Quest and with people from AKA such as Kos. I’m not sure about his most recent training camp however. After reading his book, I actually think that Penn generally trains fairly hard, not as hard as someone like GSP or Mayweather, but pretty hard nonetheless and he sometimes flies in good talent to train with. In general, however, it seems like his corner is composed primarily of buffoons; he clearly needs to revamp things. I think that relocating to anywhere from Hawaii for his next camp would be a good start.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Aug 30, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I do, although i appear to be alone in my assessment. From what I recall (and perhaps I’m misremembering — it’s been a while since I watched the fight), Gray outboxed / outstruck Edgar. This could have been in part a function of Edgar’s worrying about the TD. In any event, I think Maynard gets shitted on way too much. His striking looked very crisp against Florian (what little there was of it). He outlanded KenFlo 18 to 7 in standing arm strikes. His balance and footwork generally looks good to me. I know he seemed to struggle a bit with Nate, but look what Nate just did to a guy who used to box professionally.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Aug 30, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I think they have the largest stable of higher end talent than anywhere else.
The Top 5 list is very fuzzy right now since they’re scattered across the globe though.
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
Non's argument
is weak
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 30, 2010 11:55 AM EDT reply actions
Where the better LW are, I dont know but there are certainly a host of damn good LW fighters both in and outside the UFC. This isnt anything new though. Aoki, Alvarez, Kitaoka, Thomson, Melendez, Kawajiri, JZ and Shaolin have all been ranked right up there currently and in the past. Its a shame we probably wont get to see fights like Kawajiri v Florian, Aoki v Sotiropoulos or Alvarez v Edgar. But hey, thats the MMA business I guess.
I don't know where Non gets off saying there is no clear #1
It is obviously Krazy Horse Bennett.
Bennett > Noons > Diaz > Gomi
The math is irrefutable.
How is Evan Dunham mentioned
but Goerge Sotiropoulos is not?
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
Twitter me and what not.
This.
G-Sot is not getting nearly as much love as he should.
Toronto FC - Where road games are forfeited and we STILL have no idea how to play from behind.
Like… I would love to see him against, say, Maynard. I think Sot has the tools to keep standing, and when he doesn’t, can Maynard do anything to him in Sot’s guard? That rubber guard makes people look really, really lethargic. I like him against Edgar, too. Maybe not Penn, but aside from that slip-up at the end of the Pellegrino fight, Sot has been so close to perfect lately.
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
Twitter me and what not.
Absolutely
He’s super exciting to watch without having to resort to STANDANDBANG. His submissions are just incredible to watch.
Also people watching and Australian guy whose last name is “Sotiropoulos” is a gigantic mind f*ck.
Toronto FC - Where road games are forfeited and we STILL have no idea how to play from behind.
His STANDBANG is getting better, too.
Not incredibly high level yet, but he’s becoming pretty rangy with a good jab.
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
Twitter me and what not.
Hey look, I typo'd a BE meme.
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
Twitter me and what not.
I think Sotiropolis absolutely destroys Maynard on the ground. George’s ground game is ridiculous, and has looked amazing against everybody but Aoki. But no way George is able to take Maynard down, and I think Maynard wins the sloppy boxing.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
George doesn’t generally need to take people down. He goes down, rubber guards them until they get too frustrated to think clearly, scrambles to top control. Which would be like 1-2-3 against Maynard. Also, Maynard vs Sot in the standup is a coinflip for me. Depends on how Sot uses his legs.
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
Twitter me and what not.
I just think Maynard decides where the fight takes place. If George is able to outstrike him standing, well, that would be awesome. Right now I don’t think he can, but it would be awesome.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
He stands a chance of being bullied and overpowered in the standup, to be sure, but say Maynard beats Edgar, which is a possibility, I like Sot in a five round fight over him. More opportunities to get to top or catch one of those looping arms for an armbar, which he oh-so-loves to get.
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
Twitter me and what not.
Yep.
Sot’s BJJ I would say is better than Florian’s (well, at least G-Sot doesn’t look helpless off his back) and could grab an arm and that’s all she wrote.
Toronto FC - Where road games are forfeited and we STILL have no idea how to play from behind.
The longer a fight goes
The less chance a fighter like Gray, Sonnen etc. have to win against fighters like Marquardt, GSot, Florian etc.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
The UFC has some of the world's best lightweights
It has the deepest roster of any organization. But the problem is it has the least amount of true elite fighters. You have Edgar, Maynard, and Penn. That is pretty much it at the moment and then you have the contenders (Dunham, G-Sot, Jim Miller), and then a boatload of gatekeepers (Wiman, Griffin, Guida, Stevenson, Stout, Fisher, Siver). I’d love to see Melendez in the UFC without a doubt.
Edgar is without a doubt #1.
Toronto FC - Where road games are forfeited and we STILL have no idea how to play from behind.
Huerta has lost three of his last four, but two of those fights were against #4 Kenny Florian and #7 Gray Maynard, only his loss to Pat Curran is really a knock on his claim to represent a near elite lightweight. But it’s a pretty damn big knock.
I am a big Huerta fan, but if I remember correctly… he wasn’t ranked within the top 25 prior to the Curran fight.
The less chance a fighter like Gray, Sonnen etc. have to win against fighters like Marquardt, GSot, Florian etc.
gray beat florian, and sonnen smashed marquart
read the whole comment
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
Twitter me and what not.
I'm a BE fan and even Kid Nate fan but...
I disagree.
Here’s my counterpoint…
Fact: The UFC is home to best lightweights in MMA
Adam Lawman
Lead Writer, MMAPrime.TV
are shameless plugs supposed to be linked in the fan post section or is this type of thing cool now?
I’ve got big walnuts. Gorilla nuts.
by Austin Martin on Aug 30, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
plus
i dont link my own articles usually
just this one because it was directly inspired by this piece
Adam Lawman
Lead Writer, MMAPrime.TV
kid nate replied on twitter and respected my opinion so it seems cool
it’s very respectful of him, just showing that i have my own 2 cents about it
Adam Lawman
Lead Writer, MMAPrime.TV
Boy I don’t know where to start with this ridiculous article, first off to even question the idea that the UFC doesn’t have the worlds best LW’s is wrong on all counts.
Not to mention trying to equate guys like Melendez and Alvarez who are clearly overated and have done nothing to be mentioned on the level of Edgar, Maynard and Penn is just ridiculous.
The topper on this though is saying that Edgar is the same fighter he was when he lost to Maynard years ago. Because he’s not the guy has improved his entire game, he’s quicker, more accurate with his strikes and has gotten stronger did you see the way he tossed around BJ?. Maynard on the other hand has regressed, if you allow him to to what he wants he can look dominant but Frankie won’t the second time around.
There is no controversy and no bs we know who the best LW’s are and at the top of the list stands Frankie Edgar his rep speaks for itself. People need to stop reaching for excuses and bullshit to deny him because they’ll just end up looking silly like Penn did Saturday time to just accept it and move on.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 30, 2010 4:51 PM EDT reply actions
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