UFC Star Joe Stevenson Has No Health Insurance, Must Travel to Mexico for X Rays
by Nate Wilcox on Aug 3, 2010 11:08 AM EDT
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MMA Junkie reports that UFC veteran Joe Stevenson doesn't have health insurance and had to travel to Tijuana to get X rays:
Stevenson is just one of many fighters who doesn't have health insurance and meets his health needs by hook or by crook while often relying on a network of friends and sympathetic professionals to receive medical care.
...
The former lightweight contender once had health insurance through his wife, Maia, but lost it when she stopped working after giving birth to their second son. At one point, he applied for health insurance and listed his occupation as "Fighter." He said the premium he was quoted was more than $500 a month.And before that, an overconfident Stevenson thought he simply wouldn't need coverage and could avoid injury.
"I'm going to have to take full blame for that," Stevenson joked.
Stevenson now is working with a new accountant who's going to help him set up a corporation. He can use it to gain easier access to health insurance. He'll also consult with his manager on whether surgery is necessary.
Whenever I post about fighter issues a number of commenters accuse me of "feeling sorry" for the fighters. No. This is a purely selfish thing. If we, as fans, want the very best fighters in the UFC and we want them fighting their best, some kind of fighter's health insurance program would be ideal.
In a world where Dana White takes some part of his share of the fan's money and blows as much as $500,000 in one night gambling, there is a way to insure the top fighters. In fact, if Dana were to take one night's gambling losses he could likely insure about 100 UFC fighters for a year.
More after the break.
It's clear from the story that the lack of health insurance is causing Joe Stevenson to conclude he doesn't need surgery. It's financially driven health care decisions like this that cause the early end of too many careers.
Case in point, long-time welterweight contender Karo Parisyan. In 2005 the 23 year old Parisyan injured himself training for a UFC 56 title shot with Matt Hughes. He had to drop out of that fight. More significantly he never got the necessary surgery to repair his torn tendons. The lingering injury altered his fighting style, transforming him from an aggressive go for broke submission artist into one who had to fight for decisions because he frequently wasn't in shape to risk going for a finish.
Even more devastatingly Karo apparently developed a dependency on pain killers that ultimately got him cross wise with the athletic commissions and contributed to the anxiety problems (including the anxiety of failing another drug test no doubt) that drove him from the UFC at the ripe old age of 28.
That's exactly when an athlete like Karo should be entering his physical prime. Instead he's a used up wreck, chewed up and cast off by the biggest promotion in the sport. How many young judokas saw Karo Parisyan deliver performances like his 2006 war with Diego Sanchez -- a fight that fans and the UFC declared the 8th best UFC fight of all time -- and considered a career in MMA only to find out more about Karo's career and decide against it?
Health insurance for UFC level fighters -- and I'm not even talking about guys who go 0-2 or 1-3 and get cut -- like Joe Stevenson, guys who have starred on the reality show and fought more than a dozen time for the promotion should be a no brainer. The UFC clearly has the profit margin to afford it.
Frankly the fighters ought to be smart enough and organized enough to set up a fighter's association that could get more affordable insurance. But this isn't the era for worker organizing. We live in an age when the regulators are tilted in the direction of the big money and companies like Wal Mart and Whole Foods have perfected a dizzying array of union busting tactics. Tactics that Station Casinos, the company that made the Fertitta family fortune that bought and built the UFC, practices assiduously.
The UFC really has three choices:
- Continue to chew up and spit out talented young fighters like Karo and Joe Stevenson -- both of whom have an excellent chance of being used up wrecks by age 30 and just hope that better options for talented athletes don't dry up their talent pool. The UFC has very successfully modeled it's business on the WWE, but I don't recommend they follow them all the way down the tubes. So many WWE wrestlers have died early, pointless deaths that it has seriously impacted the WWE's ability to recruit new talent;
- Invest in an insurance program for its fighters. This will more than pay for itself in positive PR, fighter retention, longer careers, fewer cancelled fights and easier recruiting of top athletes; or
- Allow/encourage the organization of a fighter's association (not even a union) that will be able to form an insurance pool to cover qualifying fighters in an affordable manner. The MMAFA is a small step in that direction. I don't know enough about it to endorse it, but at least someone is trying to start one up.
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This is all Joe Stevenson's fault
He CHOSE not to get healthcare at 500 bucks a month.
I just had a discussion with Tomas on twitter about this. While it’s probable he couldn’t afford it (however unlikely), he CHOSE not to get the coverage.
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 11:13 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I don't care
Fighter’s shouldn’t have to be good decision makers to have healthy careers. We’re talking about aggressive young men who choose to fight in cages for a living. If only the smart ones with foresight can have healthy careers, we’re not going to have a very healthy talent pool.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Aug 3, 2010 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree, they should have coverage
I’m just stating the facts of the case.
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree...
Joe Stevenson made a bunch of money last year.
UFC 104 $94,000 (including $47,000 win bonus)
Ultimate Fighter 9 Finale: $70,000 (including $35,000 win bonus) + $25,000 for FOTN
UFC 95: Salaries not released (Probably around $35,000) + $40,000 for FOTN
That means he made $264,000 not including sponsorship $ and chose not to put away $6,000 for health insurance.
I don’t have a side in this, but with taxes and training/management expenses, he didn’t come close to bringing $264k home.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
by Mike Fagan on Aug 3, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is true.
…any estimates at to what his sponsorship income would be over that period though?
I have heard that the sponsorship money will often pay a good chunk of the bills.
Stevenson has to pay federal and state taxes
as well as child support for his two older boys (that comes off top) plus 10% to agent and 10-15% for training. Plus other expenses. He sees a lot less than you think.
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Use a condom
Its his fault he is paying child support. Not that means the UFC shouldn’t have insurance, but all these drains on his income are his fault.
by SES 84 on Aug 3, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
again
who cares who’s fault it is.
This is about solving a big problem, not assigning blame.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Aug 3, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I understand your initial point
but the conversation has turned into a bit of sympathy discussion. I’m willing to engage in whether I should be sympathetic (Luke is saying I should be). I’m not sympathetic and I want to think about the costs of health insurance provided by the UFC.
not really
if i was jesus or mother theresa i’d spend all day crying for the souls of these dipshits, but i’m from hardy pioneer stock. there’s a time and place when you watch the donner party ride off in the wrong direction and you just have to say “sucks to be you”
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Maybe off topic
But what I had no sympathy for was Joe Stevenson who earns good money, but maybe loses a lot of it because he had a bunch of children. He then turns down health insurance and gets hurt…Nah no sympathy for that.
I do have sympathy for lower level guys in MMA who legitimately can’ afford any healthcare coverage and I think the UFC could do something without destroying their business model (though I’d like to see some numbers).
Obviously a big dichotomy between guys who no fighters and guys who don’t is the level of sympathy. To me fighters are like tons of other employees who get exploited, but for my benefit. I guess objectively I feel bad and maybe occasionally prefer employers that treat their employees well, but its all conceptual.
If I personally knew fighters I’d probably be more outraged. I never treat people who work for me like shit, but unfortunately low level fighters are one of the many “exploited” workers
who cares you you feel sympathy for?
this is about getting the best fighters not being a bunch of pussies who “care” about other people.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
and this (kid nates statement) is why our country is in the toilet.
You might as well just say “lets not worry about what choices he made, and solve the problem for him”.
I like Stevenson but clearly he knew what health insurance was, which is why he looked into it, and HE DECIDED 6k wasn’t worth it. Perfectly fine decision, although if he was smarter he would have put down “artist” instead of fighter. Its worth a shot. But lets not complain because now he needs it.
Look. Your second and third bullet point are great suggestions and i probably agree that something should be done to give fighters the option of group health insurance. But i’m so damn tired of hearing about how Dana White is throwing 500k around. Your argument became completely socialist at that point.
so would the army work better if it was composed entirely of independent contractors
who were responsible for their own decisions?
there’s such a thing as management. smart people run society and get the most money for a reason — it’s better for everyone.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Aug 3, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
i'm sorry
I have no idea what point you’re trying to make. Did I say the country should be run by IC’s?
Management is good, smart people running society is good, them getting paid the most money to do it is good. (A la Dana)
My only point is Joe Stevenson had the information in front of him, and to the larger point all fighters have the option to get health insurance, it’s there choice whether to do it or not.
Shit if all there worried about is insurance they could get a part time job at UPS or starbucks who both cover employees insurance. Chael Sonnen doesn’t think there is a such thing as a “full time fighter” anyway. I’m not going to feel bad for anyone who chooses to fight professionally and doesn’t consider health insurance part of their expenses.
Plain and simple if they make enough or are “big enough” they can afford to be “full time” fighters and pay for health insurance and if they are small time fighters they can tough it out like 1950’s america did, provide for themselves, and take a second part time job.
The options are out there it’s there choice what they do with them.
by fortune on Aug 3, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 10 recs
Reminds me of a story a guy told me once. He said “You know why they have that sign that says don’t feed the pigeons? It’s because if you do the pigeons get used of people giving them food and they rely on people to give it to them. If you do feed them the pigeons they stop trying to get food for themselves and eventfully lose the knowledge to do so.” He said "That’s the problem with the country. We feed the pigeons."
I get more rec's then a Toyota!
by DayGeaux on Aug 3, 2010 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Make no mistake he who feeds the pigeons controls the pigeons
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
No
The reason you don’t feed the pigeons is because they shit over every fucking thing.
by Nanoob on Aug 3, 2010 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Tell me about it.
I work with bridges. The number one problem we have is corrosive pigeon shit. I wish I was making that up.
I get more rec's then a Toyota!
The reason you don’t feed the pigeons is because they shit over every fucking thing.
Synonymous with the country in the toilet, and someone feeding the pigeons to control the pigeons. Point taken.
Lesnar Carwin II: Carwin is going to pull that horseshoe out of Lesnar's ass and beat him over the head with it.
Fuck the 50's
Were you alive then? Was the world perfect? Was the more wealth? More justice? Healthier? For whom?
Do you really believe that current social problems stem from people being to kind and giving?
Extremely naive and willfully ignorant.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 7, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
You pay every time you order a PPV
We’re not talking tax money here, people. We’re talking about a multi-million dollar corporation that refuses to offer even the most basic of health insurance to its independent contractors.
Forget sympathy, forget morality – it’s simply good business for Dana & Co. to keep their fighters in good health. Did this fall teach them nothing? What, three cards in a row ravaged by injuries? I’m not saying any of them were preventable, but how many Joe Stevensons are there we don’t know about, who make medical decisions based on lack of insurance that lead to later problems?
It’s in the UFC and Zuffa’s best interest to offer medical insurance simply from a business standpoint. One PPV that gets to keep its fighters (and an elevated number of buys) because they received medical care for the few years leading up to it pays for the investment.
"I might know a couple things that you don't know. 'Cause I've been young, but you ain't never been old." - Elvin Bishop
by duck on Aug 3, 2010 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You'd think it would be in Zuffa's best interest to keep it's employees healthy...
…but you’d be wrong. they don’t give a flying fuck. Aside from a few big name draws and very consistently winning fighters, they don’t keep a big stable of guys. they work short term, short money for most guys trying to break into the big leagues of the UFC.
There is always fresh meat for the grinder for them. It sucks, but if providing health insurance to their fighters was a priority, they’d already be doing it. It is not, so they don’t.
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
they're thinking short term
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Aug 3, 2010 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Federal and state tax and child support would be there regardless of his profession though. Agent and training are the only MMA specific costs.
Stevenson isn’t making terrible money is my point. Even if he was clearing 100,000 all said and done there are lots of people who will never make that much money in a year. Isn’t the average income in the US somewhere around $29.000?
To be fair, that $264K did not include undisclosed bonuses, sponsorship income, or ancillary income like seminars and such. Joe probably grossed somewhere around $350K-$500K. Surely he could have afforded $6K in health insurance.
Undisclosed bonuses
do you really think they gave him any bonus besides getting FOTN cheques?
Bellator gave Dave Herman a signing bonus, SF, Affliction, smaller shows all regularly play(ed) with the numbers so that the fighters get guaranteed money that isn’t covered by the fight purse that is reported to the commission. i don’t know why it’s so hard to grasp that the UFC could do similar things.
it still exists. I don’t understand why we live in a world where a lower level org can give a fighter like herman guaranteed money that isn’t in a fight purse but you get mocked for suggesting that the top org would do that to higher caliber fighters. Especially when there is evidence that they do it.
The UFC gives a lot of money out besides “blank of the night” bonuses. Even on the PPV where Lesnar won sub of the night, the guy everyone said should have won it said he still got a big bonus in the locker room and has gotten one of them on his last several fights from Dana.
"Jeremy Shane.. Easily the best writer on BE with initials J.S.!" - mmarazorback
the magical locker room bonus
either you’ve never read machiavelli or the laws of power or you are a master of it.
Tricks like random secret locker room bonuses are very basic moves to manipulate people at a very low cost.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
other than the fact that fighters have said they have gotten very generous bonuses, though not as big as FOTN bonuses, still very substantial. So I’d guess if you got thousands to fight, thousands to win, thousands from sponsors and then a ten grand bonus or more; thats pretty good.
Calling it “magical” bonus sounds like you say it doesn’t exist when it clearly does.
As for manipulate people, if you mean encourage your employees to perform and earn extra money like most bonuses do, then yea.
"Jeremy Shane.. Easily the best writer on BE with initials J.S.!" - mmarazorback
You have no idea what you are talking about
and everything you’ve said about the bonuses shows that. I don’t understand why you shill for the UFC so much when you’re clearly too ignorant to be on the payroll.
Just to clarify: Your notions of the regularity they are handed out with, the sizes of the bonuses, and the circumstances people receive them under is all wrong.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Aug 3, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I have been investigating this for a story. He is ridiculously wrong.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 3, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Details? or do we have to wait for the post?
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
It was funny until I realized it was sad.
Are you going to do a full post on BE regarding the ghost bonuses?
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Aug 3, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I want someone to break the myth about all the endorsement money fighters make. A few fighters? Yes they make a lot off sponsors. Most? I believe it’s a fraction what fans assume.
Someone besides me, that is.
You have GOT to quit baiting me to do posts!
I’d love to write more here. It would be valuable for me to think more deeply about issues, cause to do extra research, and enhance my work while providing some extra fan-produced content. I just can’t do it. I emailed Nate about a fanpost I wanted to write and before I could put it together, I got shot down by superiors. I can’t even talk about what it was, but suffice to say I’m very disappointed I couldn’t do it.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Aug 3, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm just so lazy, And you are such a superior writer.
Hey, how does one go about contacting you? Is there like a pdl signal?
I would like to know this as well. Shoot me an email. Both of you.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 3, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
No please? Not even a question.
I like a man who’s in control.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Aug 3, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, at work. Drifted into Army mode there…
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 3, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
PS
what is your email? It’s not listed on the main page, I just get a link to gmail.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Aug 3, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
jonathan dot snowden at gmail dot com
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 3, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t like this.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 3, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You wildly overstate my writing abilities or undersell yours.
I do one draft of writing the way I would say something. Then I’m done.
As for the pdl signal, perhaps Snowden could be so kind as to give us each others contacts?
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Aug 3, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Finally, I’ve wondered for years about those legendary locker room bonuses.
Do you have a timeline for this story?
It's the best form of manipulation
Give out just enough to be credible.
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you talking about the bonuses or Mr. Snowden?
If its the former, then yes, I definitely agree.
I have a habit of giving out a little extra for some of my employees every couple of months. I find that cheaper.
Needless to say, it’s been a while since I gave anyone a raise and it sure as hell won’t be happening any time soon.
Next time I'd like to see a Haiku
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
Kid Nate strikes again
Joe says “no” to insurance
Somehow Dana’s fault
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 3, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
this i don't get
so as a good liberal democrat you’re all for unregulated monopolies and no health insurance for workers?
you’re just being reflexively pro dana now.
i’m arguing this is what is best for the ufc long term.
instead of arguing you’re just attacking.
do you want the ufc to be the biggest sport in the world or do you just want to blow dana white?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Aug 3, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
give him a minute
I throw raps that attack like the Japs on Pearl Harbor/MC's be out like bank robbers/Fleeing the scene, to be a sole survivor/DJ the getaway driver/Tried to dip but he dive, I socialize on vocal vibes/On tracks stabbed up with razor sharp knives
Can’t I want both?
These guys aren’t humping along for minimum wage and wholly dependent upon Zuffa for their pay (sponsors, endorsements, etc). I’m not going to carry the Red Flag for professional athletes that decide to gamble instead of purchasing health insurance.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 3, 2010 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d be willing to bet Zuffa gave him a sizable bonus after his loss to BJ Penn. They gave Babalu an undisclosed $100K bonus for running after Chuck and getting spectacularly KOed. I would bet Stevenson also got a little extra for being aggressive and losing in spectacular fashion.
and you are a test case for the way
that the magical secret locker room bonus — often discussed but rarely seen — works on people’s imaginations. you’re being played.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
To be fair though
How many fighters are going to willingly open up their books for MMA bloggers to see?
I've talked to enough and gotten a decent amount of first hand numbers.
Nate is right in his characterization. The bonuses are part of viral marketing to the base, and it’s been done brilliantly. People buy this illusion that fighter pay is actually good and these guys net significant amounts of money. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was a calculated marketing plan from near the beginning to combat the fact that ACs release purse info.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Aug 3, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
it's an old old trick
the old union busting trusts did it in the 1890s
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
The bonuses are still a damn good thing ask Pat barry
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
the law requires that boxing promoters
make all payments public
most sport figures (and many actors and directors and politicians and ceos of public companies) are used to their pay being public info.
it is of the biggest benefit to the fighters and their managers actually to know what the going rate is.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I purchased some local leads good credit X amount of annual dollars etc.One of my mangers felt slighted when I got a call from one of our agents and he didn’t.
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn’t say I think he gets them all the time. I listed a specific case and provided a similar case where Zuffa actually disclosed one of their locker room bonuses. That hardly makes me a mark, and I kind of resent your implication.
Unless you have some evidence to back up your claims, your take on the matter is no more informed than mine.
by Steve4192 on Aug 3, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yeah, but 6000 bucks for health insurance a year, as a pro fighter with at least a quarter million bucks in revenue, is a no brainer. He chose not to buy it and spent the money on something else. That’s all that is. And that’s not even including locker room bonuses and sponsor money, so he really has no excuse not to get it. He’s got Ken Shamrocks money skills.
"an excellent example of why most MMA "journalism" is a joke. Pseudonyms like "toxic" and shitty writing like that dopey article"--- Joe Rogan.
again
should we expect fighters to have better money skills than Ken Shamrock?
Isn’t it a bit much to ask that they be incredible athletes, maintain optimum physical health, learn multiple complex fighting disciplines and maintain the psychological wherewithal to perform under immense pressure?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
yes; you don’t have to be a financial genius to buy health insurance; but learning a little basic financial responsibility would be better for these guys than giving them something for free they don’t have to think about
"Jeremy Shane.. Easily the best writer on BE with initials J.S.!" - mmarazorback
i don't care what's best for the fighters as individuals
i care what’s best for the sport as a whole
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
lol
i don’t care what’s best for the fighters as individuals
I know it’s not what the article is about, but I find this really hard to believe.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Aug 3, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
That's not true at all, Nate.
This sounds like the first disingenuous thing I’ve heard you say in about two years of reading here. I think you do care about the fighters. A lot more than most fans. But you’re putting on your ‘heartless, cold, and dead’ kayfabe to deal with the crowds.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
maybe so
but it’s just crazy making to try and care for the individuals AND lobby for what’s best for the sport. Clearly the fans don’t care about the fighters as individuals and trying to get them to is a lost cause.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
That's ever so true.
I was reflecting on the Ayn Rand tangent I went on the other day here on a fighter care issue, and realized that it’s probably deeper than that. Would you agree that the 18-34 male demo is encouraged to be emotionless and not feel pity, or see such things as signs of weakness or femininity?
Also, I see so much chest pounding “I DON’T CARE BECAUSE I WORK TOO!” where people make themselves out to be better than the athletes, if only at financial planning. It’s hard to out-macho a professional cage fighter, so it seems like they are looking for some avenue to prove their worth as a valuable male figure.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Aug 3, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
yes
there has been a long term mind fuck pulled on this country like you wouldn’t believe.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I believe it, I've struggled with it personally and intellectually.
Young male, former philosophy major, consults with MMA companies.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Aug 3, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
'Former philosophy major"...
Ouch. I empathize.
"The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world..."
It’s not hard to feel superior to them intellectually when one of the chief points he’s making is that fighters shouldn’t be expected to be smart.
by Steven Abbott on Aug 3, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
You understand these guys get hit in the head for a living right?
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 3, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Smart enough to know they can get paid for it.
by Steven Abbott on Aug 3, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Not to mention
It seems like a large # of comments were about the Stevenson situation specifically, when that was only intended as an example…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 3, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Reality is that they will save themselves some money if they seek their own healtcare coverage. I worked for a broker and the employees damn near pulled a mutiny and demanded options for coverage. They got the options they wanted and new pay plan. Don’t like what they are getting paid now wait till Zuffa factors in costs with the new contracts.
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Why the hell wouldn’t we? Everyone else is expected to do so. I went to school for many years to become a good scientist and am an expert in many different techniques, from mammalian cells to pathogenic microbes. Being that my vaccine development career has so much at stake to the general public, should I really have to think about having to get health insurance? I mean it’s bad enough they expect us to have incredible science minds.
by Steven Abbott on Aug 3, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Sarcasm. He should be a responsible adult. If he isn’t, that is nobody’s problem but his own. The point I made above was that regardless of the career, from bottom to top of the scale of aptitude, everyone should be responsible for themselves. If your company doesn’t offer insurance, get your own. If you don’t want insurance, don’t bitch about the bills or decisions you have to make. If you are like Joe and make that much money and don’t want to pay for insurance, put a good chunk of change in a money market account and pull out of it when necessary. Then take the money spent and deduct it from his taxable income. Jesus there are so many options he has in his position there is no reason to feel sorry for him or any other fighter that doesn’t take responsibility for themselves. As for fighters with less money, those are the breaks. When I was in school training to become what I became, insurance was very hard to come by. And before you go saying my career/training is/wasn’t dangerous, keep in mind that while in school I worked with Legionella and now I work with Smallpox. Also, no I don’t have insurance…do you want to pay my bills?
by Steven Abbott on Aug 3, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
sure
everyone is responsible for their own decisions.
but saying that doesn’t make everyone make good decisions.
i’m trying to argue that it’s in the best interests of the ufc to help their fighters be healthier.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Yeah but if people don’t make good decisions, it’s only their own fault. I get the side of your argument that it’s in even our own interest for them to have good coverage. I can agree the UFC should have educational seminars for their fighters on medical coverage, but if they don’t provide coverage themselves, then so be it. The fighters know it going in and all of them make enough to buy coverage.
by Steven Abbott on Aug 3, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
i don't care whose fault it is
i care about solving the problem
do you have any ideas beyond feel good bromides and pep talks?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Like I said, educating the fighters is the solution. People never learn if you do things for them.
by Steven Abbott on Aug 3, 2010 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
educating the fighters is part of the solution
but if i was the UFC and wanted to maximize my profits, i’d invest in the much more practical solution of helping them get affordable insurance
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
what about if a fighter gets hurt? doesn't the State Athletic Commission have to cover that?
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
should read "gets hurt during a fight"
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
I had the understanding that if it happens during a fight, the promotion covers it (possibly the commission). During training, I think it’s up to the individual…as it should be. Work covers an injury on the job. If it happens at home, it’s on me even if I was training for work the next day.
by Steven Abbott on Aug 3, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
yes
the athletic commissions require that promoters have health insurance covering injuries sustained in the fight itself
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Your job doesn’t provide you with health insurance? Most scientists work for huge corporations, universities, or the government itself. I would find it hard to believe that you don’t have really good health and dental benefits if you are a gainfully employed research scientist.
Ricky Hatton came closer to beating Manny Pacquiao than Marquez did to beating Floyd.
-SC
by The Lethal Haze on Aug 3, 2010 12:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
If they are considered independant contractors then they won’t have health insurance at all. Lots of industries (and even some government organizations) have moved in the direction of independant contractors. That isn’t just a UFC thing that is pretty much how it works across the board. I know several engineers in the oil industry and they have no benefits at all (including no paid vacation or sick time). Independant contractors are considered their own separate company not an individual worker, they aren’t going to get any benefits at all. The flip side is that they generally make more money than straight employees.
and a good accountant can help negate some of the cost from independent health insurance
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep, my father is an independant contractor and he had to get accountant help to cover everything (they don’t even pull taxes out of his check). If you are an independant contractor then you have to consider yourself as your own separate company not as an employee. This has nothing at all to do with the UFC it’s how the independant contractor system works.
And it is nice getting paid in gross and not net taht way you can decide what to pay and when. CPA and or a LLP is a great thing to have
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
That* still tired
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Glad someone else sees this too. The nature of many industries, including science and engineering, makes being a contract employee pretty lucrative. Most research grants run for a certain amount of time and it’s better for all parties to not be permanent.
by Steven Abbott on Aug 3, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s just a different system and it requires those involved to work inside that system. Everyone I know who is an independant contractor chose to be one due to the fact that they make their own choices and get much more pay than they normally would(if fighter’s were employees then obviously they would get paid less money due to all the taxes and benefits that would have to be offered). Yea they have to manage their own income tax payments and pick up their own benefits but the flip side is they get to manage their own tax situation and chose their own benefits. It’s not better or worse it’s just a different system than standard employment.
Yes we should. Hire somebody to handle the business end, if you can’t/won’t handle it yourself.
These are grown ass men. You are acting like they are neanderthals who are so stupid they can’t be expected to make rational decisions like everyone else. Hire a bloody financial adviser if you can’t handle it.
You might have a legitimate point overall, but this is probably the worst possible example to make your case with. Joe makes north of 300,000 a year, and he can’t afford $6000 bucks for health insurance? C’mon. Bad, bad example. This is like using some rich deadbeat dad to show that courts order too much child support. Use some guy who is getting tossed in jail for contempt cause he works at McDonald’s, not the guy who doesn’t pay cause then he’d have sell his 2nd Porsche.
"an excellent example of why most MMA "journalism" is a joke. Pseudonyms like "toxic" and shitty writing like that dopey article"--- Joe Rogan.
if Joe Daddy
who is someone at the top of the sport for all intents and purposes is this fucked up, think about the guys at the bottom. like that kid who got killed in SC
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
As far as money skills or smart moves go
Nobody really expects the avg fighter to be a financial wizard, but it’s a fact that fighting fucks you up. I’ve said it to my over eager rookies at the job, that even when you win, you usually get hurt. Over time it wears a body out. People who know me have asked me why I didn’t become a “professional fighter” and I tell them, I have a family. Not to mention a job where I was expected to report and be healthy enough to do a job until I retired. I made the decision for my family, and not be selfish and do what a crazy 23 yr old guy wants to do. Now I’ve got a house, a couple cars, toys etc, and I’m sure I made the right decsion.
by taz66 on Aug 3, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd
To not fight is nearly as difficult a decision to make as to fight. I see my former training partners with solid pro records and prospects whereas I only have a few amateur fights and have to battle the urge to think “what if?” The crazy 21-23 year old wanted to fight, but the rational 21-23 year old knew that only world-class guys can make a career out of it, and I’m nowhere near a world-class guy, nor do I think I ever would have been. That said, a guy like myself could have fought regional shows and had the label of a “professional fighter.” To many guys, that’s all they want, consequences be damned. We don’t allow people to take part in most dangerous activities without adequate insurance. Why should fighting, especially at the professional level, be any different? If not, then the fighters, as delusional and uneducated as many are, are merely props getting beat up for our enjoyment and for the benefit of a few promoters (though I don’t begrudge promoters their due, even if that seems contrary to what I’ve written).
"The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world..."
if the UFC wants to compare themselves to the NFL
then they should have insurance & retirement.
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
by tigerlee on Aug 3, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Are you talking about the NFL that is constantly under attack for its lacking insurance and retirement programs?
yep
and they also have a player’s union. any major organization must pay the piper.
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
They still don’t pay for insurance or retirement, the players union takes that out of the players salaries. NFL players not only have to pay for their own benefits they have to pay for the benefits of other players from the past.
by who me on Aug 3, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
again
who really cares. I don’t expect MMA fighters to be anything much above foolish in their personal decisions. Someone needs to step in and help these foolish young men take care of themselves.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
yes
just like any other athlete, employed by a any major athletic company…great article Nate.
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
Except fighters aren’t employed by the UFC.
They are Independent contractors, and have to arrange for their own health benefits just like any other independent contractor.
independent contractors?
that can’t wear apparel banned by the Zuffa? or have their likeness in EA Sports? doesn’t sound independent to me
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
by tigerlee on Aug 3, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I do some independent contracting in the construction business. That’s pretty much the reality. If you want the company to pay you then you have to obey by their rules. The only difference being I have a lot more companies to choose from so the companies cannot fuck you as bad as they could.
I get more rec's then a Toyota!
and
no offense, there are probably a lot more people who can do your job than can replace even the worst UFC fighter on the card on any given night.
I’d like the sport to keep progressing like it has. The fighters who won titles 10 years ago probably wouldn’t even make the cut in today’s UFC. I’d like the same to be true 10 years from now when the UFC is beating out the NFL and the NBA for the very best athletes in the world.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Not at all. I agree with you
My point was to tierlee. Those independent contractors get screwed all the time and it’s a shitty situation to be in at times. If the UFC had more completion then might be forced to give benefits…And no one can do my job like me. Its take years of practice to make people think you know more than you do.
I get more rec's then a Toyota!
ha. Don't let it happen again!
My time is valuable at my state job. Now back to my paper trash can shoot out with my co-workers.
I get more rec's then a Toyota!
you would hope
that the promotion that is at the top food chain wouldn’t be short changing fighters concerning insurance. I can understand construction, or semi-pro football, or regional start-up MMA promotions but we’re talking about Dana White’s ‘premier’ MMA organization.
Not that it should all be on UFC’s lap, maybe NSAC needs to weigh in on the subject. In any case the fighters do need to form an alliance on the issue of insurance & retirement (what they do with that is up to them)…
not to troll but just for clarity, you did mean ‘competition’ rather than ‘completion’, right?
Also, i don’t see why Zuffa couldn’t swing an advertising deal and plug Aetna or whomever during a telecast on Spike, just like they do with Bud Light.
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
competition*
I with you man. They need it. Hell I need it. It’s just the nature of the beast right now with any independent contractor. You get called when they need you and you don’t get benefits. You’re basically their bitch. I’d like it to change everywhere, but chances are it will happen in the UFC before it does in my line of work.
I get more rec's then a Toyota!
In ring/cage insurance is mandatory but NSAC doesn’t really care about guys getting hurt training, that is outside of what they cover. Independent contractors don’t get company provided benefits because they are considered separate companies contracted to do a task not employees of the company. That’s not a UFC thing it’s how it works in general, there are no regulations on this and it’s seriously doubtful there ever will be.
I don’t think competition would do anything to change this either because they all use the same independent contractor system. The best bet for this problem would be a fighter’s organization that provides insurance plans either by charging directly or out of yearly organization dues(similar to the NFL players union handling of this issue).
Yeah the sponsorship thing has nothing to do with I/C
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I do feel bad for some of the fighters and I do agree that it would be nice to see better coverage,
but I am not gonna cry for Joe Stevenson and his silly immature decisions..
did anyone ask you to?
this isn’t about Joe Stevenson, this is about the next generation of great athletes like Steven Neal — the NFL Patriot who beat Brock Lesnar in college wrestling — and Shaq.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
*shrug
I was talking about Stevenson in this thread of convo…
I’ve stated that I agree with the idea for healthcare, but this specific line of conversation was about how I don’t really feel bad for Stevenson.
Someone needs to step in and help these foolish young men take care of themselves.
I disagree with that. I would like to see it, but not for that reason. I am all for the other reasons you listed.
and again
I already commented above but Kid Nate just points out again why I can’t back this argument.
Everyone is responsible for themselves and their own decisions. I absolutely expect fighters, or anyone not mentally impaired for that matter, to be able to make decisions for themselves. I guess I should apologize for not assuming that fighters are dumb and foolish??
And that’s not even pointing out the fact that these fighters have managers, and/or trainers, and something called the interwebs (that can be used for something other then porn believe it or not) that can help them make decisions and learn about crap like this.
The info is out there, it’s there job to be a responsible person, not mine to do it for them.
again
I’m not interested in responsibility, i’m interested in solving problems. Human beings long ago realized that acting in organized groups is more effective than acting as individual agents. That’s why we have countries, companies, colleges, stock markets etc.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
What about agents and managers?
Joe made 264 not including any of his endorsment/sponsorship money. Just looking at that which has been made public, he got at least 20k a fight more in that kind of money.
His manager should be looking out for him. Everyone has expenses, my wife and I made less than a 1/3 of Joe’s disclosed pay and we pay over 300 a month in insurance. Joe also said that he was covered under his wife’s insurance, but she quit working after their second child. So he has made TWO decisions that affected his own medical coverage.
If nothing else, agents/managers should look at package insurance deals. If a guy has 15 fighters, why not put together some sort of company that consists of those guys and that would reduce some of the costs. Not to mention that fact that you can deduct some medical costs. That Joe’s manager did not attempt to convince him to make sure he and his family were covered is inexcusable.
Maybe Zuffa should help organize something, but it is not on their shoulders alone.
You're not factoring in costs
He made 264,000, but he has to pay his trainers, along with all sorts of other fees, equipment costs, nutrition costs, etc. Add to that two children and a wife, and the cost of health insurance starts not to look so affordable.
There’s simply no getting around the fact that UFC fighters are underpaid, and at the very least should have company health insurance.
You mean 4 children
2 of which he has to play child support (which is probably 30%)
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Personal decision
I don’t see how you can completely forgive a terrible decision. 6000 a year for indpendent health insurance is about what it costs unfortunately, but considering his bear minimum needs as a fighter it totally makes senes. There needs to be personal accountability. If Joe Stevenson isn’t smart enough to do it that is his problem.
If it impacts his fighting then its the same thing as if he didn’t eat right or didn’t train at a good camp. Its his fault for not maximizing his potential.
Would it be worthwhile for the UFC to try to get health insurance? Maybe though might actually be harder for the UFC to do it then for fighters to get it on their own given that the UFC is a pretty horrible risk pool. I just think the primary problem is Joe Stevenson’s, and you are saying he bears no responsibility.
by SES 84 on Aug 3, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not forgiving Joe Stevenson
This isn’t about Joe Stevenson. This is about the future of high quality MMA. I can remember when top notch young athletes wanted to get into the WWE. Now they don’t. If the UFC treats its human livestock as badly as their model the WWE does, there won’t be a very high caliber of product to sell.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
@ kid nate: "This isn’t about Joe Stevenson".
so your article about Joe Stevenson isn’t about Joe Stevenson’s choice to not provide himself or family with Insurance?
"Its a cliche that boxing is the sweet science, man we're astro physics..." ~ Mayhem Miller speaking about MMA
by FR702 on Aug 3, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
as I said, not the best copy-paste article to make your point
"Jeremy Shane.. Easily the best writer on BE with initials J.S.!" - mmarazorback
What's cooler than being cool?
Ice Cold
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I've been waiting for this ban for so long.
Awesome.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
He liked my articles.
This is a sad day.
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
He was going to try and sell you for silver eventually
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I heard I'm 3/5ths value
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha overstating like a motherfucker you sir are saturated.
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Holy crap!
Follow me on twitter @thisredengine
Also please check out SBnation's Red Bulls blog @ www.onceametro.com
“Fighter’s [sic] shouldn’t have to be good decision makers to have healthy careers.”
Um… what? This statement is laughable.
Their health is their livelihood. Every decision they make should revolve around their health.
by Applejack McNeil on Aug 3, 2010 11:33 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 11 recs
If a fighter wants to spend all of his fight purse on drugs or booze or thai whores or ugly jewelry instead of health insurance/savings it’s their own fault for being idiots not Zuffa’s. If they aren’t making enough for health insurance/saving they should look for different work or get better.
by Brent Nahmias on Aug 3, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
again
I’m trying to solve a problem and make things better for everyone.
You’re trying to assign blame.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
The solution is already there.. you are trying to take another jab at UFC… Stevenson buys health insurance = solution.
"Jeremy Shane.. Easily the best writer on BE with initials J.S.!" - mmarazorback
by JeremyShane on Aug 3, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 9 recs
Actually, it's in the UFC's best interests to get insurance.
Are we forgetting the rash of injuries and late pull-outs that plagued the promotion in the last twelve months?
It costs the UFC a lot of money to let athletes take care of this stuff themselves and end up potentially getting injured long-term because they’re not seeing to issues properly in the short term.
Forget responsibility – if you don’t want a multi-million dollar pay-per-view main event canceled, or a champion sidelined for a year or so because he hasn’t had his gut pains properly checked out (Lesnar Represent), you need to get a wellness policy in place that extends past the 12 hours after a fight.
Koscheck eats it.
Hypothetically speaking would UFC/WEC fighters have spousal/dependent coverage as well?
And would the Zuffa pay for that coverage or the fighters?
Follow me on twitter @thisredengine
Also please check out SBnation's Red Bulls blog @ www.onceametro.com
Stevenson is just an example. A huge percentage of the UFC’s fighter base makes way less than Stevenson.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 3, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
OH I SEE
Fighters are too stupid to make intelligent decisions. We must make the right choices for them. They are dumb children and we’re their intellectual superiors. Those who know what’s best for them must rise and save them from themselves.
Your parents must be siblings.
pretty much
why should they be expected to be any smarter than soldiers in the us army?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
do you think the army would work better
as a real “army of one” where every soldier was an indepentdent contractor who made all his/her own decisions?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
That's not what I'm saying.
But that’s apples vs oranges. The military is not a business and it’s not a place which allows for individuality — I know, I was a soldier for 8 years. The military relies of uniformity/conformity. It’s one-size fits all even it requires a Procrustean Bed to make it so. I don’t think that’s what we want in the fight business.
Your parents must be siblings.
do you not think that certain principles of group organization apply
to mma?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Yes.
But I think it’s very tenuous leap from there to actually managing the fighters’ money for them. You know the NFL and MLB have rookie orientation and classes revolving around financial planning and how not to get suckered, etc. These are young kids coming into a lot more money than they’ve ever had, and I think that’s the responsible way to address the issue: educate them.
But ultimately, I think the decisions should be theirs. So how about a compromise: the UFC create mandatory financial planning classes for all fighters under the age of 25 or so (optional for any fighters over that), at the UFC’s expense, and they bring in experts to educate these kids about financial planning, insurance, etc.?
Your parents must be siblings.
managing their money
for them is a leap you made. it’s standard business practice in this country to provide employees health insurance. not some socialistic scheme. in fact the reason we do employer based health insurance is because we hate socialism in the usa.
i’m very excited to see that now we’re progressing to the next logical step, no insurance for anyone.
let freedom ring.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
What other Independent Contractors get Health Insurance?
Honest question, because I do not know.
by Broke Lesnar on Aug 4, 2010 1:37 AM EDT up reply actions
the independent contractor thing
is a canard
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Aug 4, 2010 2:46 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
When you have to call the 82nd Airborne to keep Chuck from fighting
Fighters might have problems.
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
You don't know many fighters then
Because all of the ones I know have taken insane risks with their health for minimal if no return. And not dumb ones either.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
That’s the nature of the beast, though.
Yes, MMA is a violent sport and generally it would be unwise for someone looking to stay in good health to take up but it’s the risk they’ve chosen.
Every time I go biking, I run the risk of getting hit by a car. Every time I roll, I run the risk of tearing something.
I take precautions to avoid that. Doesn’t seem that outlandish to me to do so.
by Applejack McNeil on Aug 3, 2010 11:57 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
again
this isn’t about the fighters as human beings making decisions, this is about the UFC competing for top athletes in an open market place where the very best can choose other sports.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Which is why the insurance companies don't want any part of them.
Their intentional high risk taking.
If you want to be in business for yourself….i.e. a contractor (as a fighter somewhat is) then you have to learn to be a good decision maker.
Paying out more money for someone b/c they are an idiot is a pretty stupid reason.
"Jeremy Shane.. Easily the best writer on BE with initials J.S.!" - mmarazorback
Fighter’s shouldn’t have to be good decision makers to have healthy careers
Why not? Anyone who values being healthy has to make good decisions about his or her health. Why should fighters be exempt from this?
Your parents must be siblings.
ideally they would be
but i’m trying to make practical solutions that will work not impose high minded ideals that do nothing but make me feel good and virtuous.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Oh well in that case
Why pay them salaries at all? Why not just have them go to Dana or one of his proxies anytime they want to make a purchase, and if or his proxies approve it, the UFC will make the purchase for the fighters? We can’t trust them to manage their own earnings, you know. they might blow the money — maybe gamble it away!
Your parents must be siblings.
when you are young, healthy, and don’t have much money, it’s hard make that decision. especially if you stay healthy, it feels like you are flushing all the money down the toilet.
you can’t expect these guys to make great decisions on this stuff. that’s why a mechanism to help them should be in place.
www.tapology.com | twitter @tapology
Exactly
You feel like you are invulnerable and have no need for it.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 3, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
But he's got 4 kids, he should know better
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Who gives a shit
This isn’t about Joe Stevenson, God Bless his dumb ass, this is about seeing the best MMA.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
THE UFC AND other organizations SHOULD PAY FOR COVERAGE
They absolutely should have coverage, its a write off for the promotion and it should be part of the grand plan.
Unfortunately its the American corporate mentality, use you up and throw you away and good luck on your own.
by Syncro on Aug 3, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
TRue
Joe is a prime example, which is why the picture of him as a bloody mess is so fitting. A family guy has no business in the business and the UFC would be the only entity that should pick up a tab like this. But again, eyes wide open. Even in high school kids are getting injured and realize they are going to get hurt, so hey….
Again, I agree that they should be covered
Hell, I think there should be a union, I was just stating the facts of the case.
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Dude
500 bucks a month is prohibitive. That’s an insane number—shit, that’s rent to a lot of people.
$6000 a year for a fighter is a deal, a steal, and he was an idiot to pass on it. I would argue that it is more likely than not that he would have more than $6000 in health care costs in any given year. He made a poor decision that he has to live with now.
With regard to the UFC providing insurance, that may be the smart thing to do from a long-term business perspective, but there seems to be a good deal of new talent seeking to enter MMA without it.
we should assume
that fighters will be idiots.
Race horses are better taken care of.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
we should assume that fighters will be idiots.
One of the most offensive statements I’ve ever read here.
Your parents must be siblings.
6 grand is just his premium, and just for him. What is his deductible? Another grand or 2? What is his coinsurance? Those total costs compound quickly.
by Hardcharger on Aug 3, 2010 11:51 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
$6K is not a steal if that's what you earn for one fight that is a loss.
Lot’s of prelim fighters don’t earn jack shit per bout, so the least that the UFC could do is provide some sort of insurance for them during the duration of their contracts, no matter how short.
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
In cage injury insurance is manditory but the UFC isn’t going to pay for outside of cage insurance for independant contractors. If they did then they would start paying the fighters less money to cover that amount they are out. If we lived in a better world maybe things would be different but the reality is that it’s just not going to happen that way. Prelim fighters are just going to have it bad all around until they get off the prelims and on to the main card.
I really doubt it was that low to be honest
I know someone who pays 400 bucks a month and they are in a business that is nowhere NEAR as physical as fighting
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Most people aren’t drawing making over a quarter a million a year in gross revenue.
"an excellent example of why most MMA "journalism" is a joke. Pseudonyms like "toxic" and shitty writing like that dopey article"--- Joe Rogan.
also, most people can work until they’re way older than mid-30’s.
by David_ on Aug 3, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This has to do with health insurance why?
I look at fighters as small business men. Sure, there is overhead. But 6000 bucks out of 300,000 to insure against something that WILL actually happen to you? The fact that he can even get health insurance is somewhat surprising; Progressive wouldn’t sell a demolition derby driver a policy.
"an excellent example of why most MMA "journalism" is a joke. Pseudonyms like "toxic" and shitty writing like that dopey article"--- Joe Rogan.
$500 a month isn’t that much for health insurance these days, my work pays more than that for my health insurance and I’m a government worker. The issue here is the independant contractor system and the fact that apparently a lot of fighters just don’t “get it”. I’m sure if given a choice between $6k a year or company provided health insurance most people would chose the cash. Even us with company provided health insurance it’s not like the company is just shouldering the load, it’s figured into what they can and can’t pay for salary for employees right off the top, Independant contractors get paid more money because they have no benefits.
yea, love how another article pops up to blame the UFC for something as soon as this story broke. This one is not very good to hang your hate on. Stevenson made the choice and makes the money to afford it. This ones on him.
"Jeremy Shane.. Easily the best writer on BE with initials J.S.!" - mmarazorback
again
the point of the discussion is to solve the problem. you want to assign blame or rather excuse the UFC from liability.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
as I said above; that sounds fancy but is inaccurate
Stevenson buying his own insurance is a solution, you are simply trying to lay it on UFC instead, you are assigning blame to somewhat other than the guy that made the call
"Jeremy Shane.. Easily the best writer on BE with initials J.S.!" - mmarazorback
He chose not to move to Canada.
Serves him right.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
And how much of your paycheck do you see after your government takes it’s due and proper?
by Steven Abbott on Aug 3, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
OMG Socialism !!!!111
Not really….good post. I agree.
by HonorableJudgeIto on Aug 3, 2010 11:13 AM EDT reply actions
Didnt he get a 65 grand FOTN bonus in February?
No sympathy
did I ask
anyone to have sympathy?
Here’s my question — Do you want to see the best athletes in MMA? Do you want to see those athletes performing at their best?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Here’s what I want- for you to quit mentioning Dana’s gambling in every article that has nothing to do with it.
by ufc4 on Aug 3, 2010 11:17 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 4 recs
that's where our money is going
to fund lavish lifestyles for the Fertittas and Dana. Face it.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Aug 3, 2010 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I really don’t mind, they are the ones who lost millions in the beginning to get this thing where it is now, they can spend their money how they wish. When I go to a Chiefs game I’m funding the lavish lifestyle of the Hunt family and I’m fine with that, the owners deserve to reap the rewards of their hard work.
by ufc4 on Aug 3, 2010 11:23 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Should the disparity between the fighters and the owners be so much that the fighters don’t have health care?
The real question is does the disparity is between the fighters and the owners so much that the fighters don’t have health care? It isn’t in the case of Stevenson, so who are we really talking about? Nate’s article clearly says we arn’t talking about the 0-1 guys who get cut, so I assume we’re talk about guys who are ranked in the top 10 or top 20. Do those guys really not make enough money that health care is unaffordable?
i'm actually
trying to talk about everyone below the champion level.
if even a guy like stevenson is fucked up — there’s also thiago silva, etc etc — then the bottom level guys are really screwed. and since every fighter starts at the bottom, even the next GSP, we should care about those little guys as fans even if we don’t care as people.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I was referring to
Health insurance for UFC level fighters — and I’m not even talking about guys who go 0-2 or 1-3 and get cut — like Joe Stevenson, guys who have starred on the reality show and fought more than a dozen time for the promotion should be a no brainer. The UFC clearly has the profit margin to afford it.
Personally, I think all fighters should be able to get insurance if they want it (and they should all want it). The business argument that you’ve mentioned a few time (it’s in Zuffa’s best interest to provide health insurance to fighters) is less true when we’re talk about fighters on the undercard or that do not represent a significant draw at present time. Their potential is something with value, but we’d really have to figure out a discount rate that makes sense and that seems a bit crazy.
The best option I can think of is for Zuffa to create a group policy that affords all fighters the opportunity to buy health insurance at a discount compared to if they were on their own. I mentioned it in another post.
by rask4p on Aug 3, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
you are a typical 21st Century American
at some point you’ll realize that we’re making a collective decision to take our money as a people and flush it down the toilets of a few rich assholes. It doesn’t make a better future.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Aug 3, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Unless u want everything to be government owned there are going to be rich people who own large corporations.
by ufc4 on Aug 3, 2010 11:36 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
study some history son
in the 1950s, when we were the top country in the world by every measure the marginal tax rate on high incomes was about 70%+.
We used that tax money to pay for things like the Cold War (which kept us free) and the Interstate Highway System (which made us rich).
We’re going the way of China in the 1700s when it was a better investment for the local Mandarin to bury his gold in a field than to dredge the canal or repair the bridge that let him sell his crops to bigger markets.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
The governement has ownership in a quite a few large corporations these days coincidence?
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
and they bought all those broke ass companies
with imaginary money that the Chinese have been kind enough to loan us.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Dont forget the USD index when they loaned/printed the trillion LOL Nate you know what’s up man that is awesome.
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Once again, you make me agree with you.
Kind enough to loan us. As long as that’s sarcastic, you’re alright.
sadly
and now they are using those greenbacks to buy some big businesses like Volvo
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
So then you support oil companies gouging up the price because they "lost millions" in the past?
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
I was hoping you would have gone with airline companies
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
What do you mean "person’?
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
fucked that up with no help needed.
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
What you mean by "you"?
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I know who I am
I’m just a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude.
I get more rec's then a Toyota!
by DayGeaux on Aug 3, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Then why you still in character?
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I had seen “Black Lesnar” then I saw “Barack Lesnar” and thought I had misread the first time. Until I saw the two on the same thread.
Wait till Broke Lesnar shows up your head might implode
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Since I gave birth to Barack Lesnar
I can’t wait for Baraka Lesnar or Brak Lesnar to show up.
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
You didn’t give birth as much as I was looking for a new name and saw Broke Lesnar post below you and presto
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Shut up son
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow, who needs to pay for PR when you have “fans” with this type of mindstate.
I bet if you were the one actually doing the fighting, your tune might be a little different… or at least you may have been punched hard enough to actually critically think about it.
or I may have taken the half a million dollars I make in a year and bought some damn health insurance
god, I love how nobody has to be responsible as long as the UFC is there to lay blame on
"Jeremy Shane.. Easily the best writer on BE with initials J.S.!" - mmarazorback
And what percentage of fighters do you think make half a million dollars a year? And if we just took those fighters out of the equation, how many cards do you think we would see.
This isn’t about simplistic blame, its about good business practice and ethics.
by bleve_ on Aug 3, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He can’t hear you
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Not to be a dick...
..but really, get over it, Nate. If Dana spends $500k on bad real estate deals, whores, gambling or sports cars, it’s money that has already left your pocket, willingly, for the product he built and served you.
What he does with it after you give it to him is none of our business, and to mention it every time you mention him is justifying his call to nor accredit writers from this site.
It’s personal, and it’s unnecessary.
Otherwise, respect.
Koscheck eats it.
by Ozzz on Aug 3, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
it's not personal
it’s out of my regard for him and his work.
I was a big Nirvana fan and didn’t enjoy it when Kurt and Courtney would brag to the press about their drug habits either. My fanzines about how junkies weren’t cool were met by a similar reception from “fans”. A couple of those people apologized to me in May 1994.
When Dana is making a public spectacle of his gambling I take that as a red flag. I’m concerned for the organization he runs and yes, even for him.
If he was bragging in interviews about being drunk every night I’d write about that too.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I just don't see how you judge him for that...
but when Joe has child support to pay, and makes a decision not get insurance, those things are irrelevant to the big picture.
Dana being irresponsible is bad for the business, but fighters being irresponsible is unavoidable?
by Broke Lesnar on Aug 4, 2010 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Dana is the boss
his decisions matter more. He gets a higher reward and faces higher scrutiny.
But again, where am I judging him? I’m worried the man’s gambling problem will hurt his business because i’m a huge fan of his work and want him to succeed.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Do you really think..
..that Lorenzo and Frank would allow it to get to a point where their business was ‘hurt’?
They run casinos. If anyone knows the difference between someone dropping some couch change to kill a few hours on a Sunday night and putting the company in financial peril, I reckon they’re it.
I mean, hells bells, Dana could probably buy a casino if he wanted, at this point.
Koscheck eats it.
Any mid-level MMA fighter can afford health insurance. Make the purses bigger if you want high level athletes; comped health insurance (which is a minimal business expense) is not going to get the new Shaq into MMA, when it at most amounts to an extra 6 grand a year.
"an excellent example of why most MMA "journalism" is a joke. Pseudonyms like "toxic" and shitty writing like that dopey article"--- Joe Rogan.
They won't be performing at their best
If people like you disincentivize their acting like adults by making all their decisions for them. These people are grown men and women, not retarded children who need intelligent people like yourself dictating the terms of their own lives to them.
Your parents must be siblings.
call me "an intelligent person" again
and you’re banned
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Aug 3, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i think you're intelligent
I think you see a problem and i agree that there is a problem. I just think your solution is misguided.
Your parents must be siblings.
He earned about 300K in salary last year
Plus “Father Dana’s bonuses” and sponsoships. It’s be safe to assume he grossed 700K
His expenses are federal (50%) and state tax, his agent’s 10%, his trainers age adn the (probably) 30 of gross he pays in child support. All of that is money he doesn’t see.
And he lives in Cali with a probably high mortgage and growing boys.
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Still has to be paid though
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed. The UFC gets around it with this whole “private contractor” thing but, in reality, we all know Zuffa is an employer and employers have a responsibility to provide health insurance, especially when they are asking their employees to risk their health for work.
Goldberg on Leben: One thing's for sure--he really did break that door on the Ultimate Fighter.
Rogan: uh...yeah.
Plus, as Nate mentioned
I suspect we would have a lot fewer fights missed due to injury because they would be treated as they happened rather than guys hoping it will get better or that they can “suck it up” and deal with it.
In my experience, a great many training injuries happen with guys trying to compensate for other injuries…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 3, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Thats speculation though...
What percentage of fighters have healthcare… What percentage of fights have those fighters missed? What is the average fighters have to pay for Health Care? What kind of cost would the UFC have to take on to insure fighters, and which fighters qualify for insurance… Is it based on fights? Time under contract? Wins? Contractual stipulations? Are fighters willing to take a paycut for insurance?
What is the solution exactly? The way a fighter’s career works, they can go from contender to cut, in three fights… In a regular job you may have to work there for a year to even qualify, and you better be sure to have clocked in enough hours over the period of work, or you’ll still be shit out of luck… while making a fraction of what fighters make.
by Broke Lesnar on Aug 4, 2010 1:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I hate that you keep using Dana’s blackjack spending as a crutch for fighters getting a raw deal. It’s a business. Dana’s spending his own money. It’s not out of the UFC vault. These men chose a career in fighting, and if they don’t like the terms of the deal, they can a) Organize and attempt to get things changed; b) Be like Mayhem and not fight in the UFC; c) Win, take home more money, BE SMART WITH THAT MONEY, and take care of things themselves, like adults.
That might be very callous, but that’s how the world works. It’s on the man, not his boss. I like Joe Stevenson, but I feel this is on him. As stated, the guy was handed a check for 65 grand 5 months ago. Come on.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Aug 3, 2010 11:16 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Tomas Rios said Stevenson has made over $300,000 in the last 13 months. I’m sorry but when you’re making that kind of jack a $500 monthly health insurance premium really isn’t much. It sounds to me like he was just being too cheap and thought he could do without it.
by ufc4 on Aug 3, 2010 11:20 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
again
do you think we should leave this up to the fighters? they’re a bunch of young jocks. let’s take care of this for them and let them spend their brain power learning to fight.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
So should we also make their house payments so they don’t fall ten months behind on their mortgage?
by ufc4 on Aug 3, 2010 11:25 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Really dude? Providing health care for employees is a pretty normal practice and you’re comparing it to paying a mortgage? That’s simply silly.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Aug 3, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
A) they’re private contractors. B) there are plenty of businesses that don’t provide health insurance.
by ufc4 on Aug 3, 2010 11:30 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
So what?
Many companies provide health care to private contractors.
I can’t think of a single high end business that doesn’t provide insurance. Isn’t that what we want/expect the UFC to be?
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Aug 3, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
For real. ufc4 is trying to make a political argument. When the business is hazardous like the UFC, and especially when you’ve been with the company for awhile, you should expect some benefits.
Really? They should expect benefits when the contract they signed says absolutely nothing about any benefits?
by ufc4 on Aug 3, 2010 11:46 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That’s kind of an interesting idea, I wonder if any of these guys (or their agents) have ever asked for health insurance whole negotiating their contract.
by ufc4 on Aug 3, 2010 12:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
UFC wouldn't do it.
A) It would open the floodgates and b) they would be employees and not I/Cs
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure it is, but we also need to remember that Zuffa isn’t GE or Microsoft. Could they afford to give these guys health insurance? Probably, but they don’t owe it to them and these guys should be responsible enough to handle it on their own if it’s not offered.
by ufc4 on Aug 3, 2010 11:42 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Nobody is claiming they are GE or Microsoft. The company I work for sure as hell isn’t that caliber, or ZUFFAs caliber for that matter, and I get amazing health benefits.
Do they owe it to them? No. They should, however, protect their assets.
Should the fighters be more responsible? Probably. I’m sure we all should/could be.
The fact is it’s a perfectly normal and common benefit to expect from an employer.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Aug 3, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Your company is in no way comparable to this situation, the premiums Zuffa would have to pay to protect 400+ pro fighters would be astronomical.
by ufc4 on Aug 3, 2010 11:48 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
astronomical compared to MLB?
or the NFL, or NBA? I know they aren’t subsidized by independent owners, but sheesh man the numbers aren’t that astronomical
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
The UFC brings in like $200 mil a year, the NFL roughly 30 times that, any comparison between the two is useless.
by ufc4 on Aug 3, 2010 12:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
If you REALLY think all the UFC pulls in is 200 million, you're crazy
They pull more than that for PPV.
And you should compare the UFC to a TEAM, nota league.
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
No, they don’t pull in more than that from PPV, do your homework.
by ufc4 on Aug 3, 2010 12:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
mmm, they allegedly sold over 8mill ppvs last year.
I don’t know how many buy HD, but woulnd’t that mean like 400mill in buys?
UFC gets 50% per PPV buy
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
No, they get less than half of the gross revenue from PPV.
by ufc4 on Aug 3, 2010 12:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
They get more now. They started at around 40% and have renegotiated every year. they are probably close to 60/40 now.
If they aren't getting 60/40, they will be now
Fuckin ridiculous that boxers geta higher PPV cut
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Well..
once you include HD buys, foreign TV deals for PPV and bar buys, it’s over 200 million from PPVs.
Add in advertisers and gates and that’s well over 200 million for PPVs.
So they clearly pull in more than 200 million. And we aren’t touching TV deals, video games, merchandise, etc
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
You keep using the same reasoning, but independent contracting doesn’t work that way.
http://www.instrength.com
I could be confused
but isn’t the idea behind the article that some thing needs to ‘change’ to correct a flawed system?
If that system is currently independent contracting, and the problem concerns fighter’s not having a benefit option other than self-provided insurance, then the company could eventually be forced to provide optional health care.
That is, if you believe that the system is flawed in the first place.
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
Independent contractors aren’t employees, they are treated as separate companies hired for specific task. It’s similar to you hiring a plumber to clean your drain, you wouldn’t provide him with health insurance you would just pay him for the work he did. Not paying employee benefits is the whole reason independent contractors came into being to start with (and everyone I know who is a independent contractor chose to be one due to higher pay and more control over taxes and benefit choices). The system isn’t flawed at all it is doing exactly what it was designed to do. Now that doesn’t mean that this system is right for MMA but this is how the system is designed to work.
we're not asking if the system works under its own terms
we’re asking if its the best system for mma.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I yet to see anyone propose an actual different system, it’s just people ranting about this system not providing something that it obviously isn’t ever going to provide. As long as they are contracted as independent contractors then that’s not going to change, and even if they get a fighter’s organization together somehow then the insurance would come from that (and out of the fighter’s pockets) instead of the UFC.
the money will come from ufc revenue
whether directly or indirectly.
and in order for a fighter’s association to form and insure fighters the ufc will have to cooperate.
i proposed that as option #3.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
It would only come from UFC revenue if they could get the UFC to fund part of it inside of a fighter’s organization of some sort and even then the majority of funding for it would still come from the fighters.
As for it having to have the UFC cooperate, I would think it would probably take the kinds of sacrifices (and even perhaps a strike) that it took the NFL players to get to where they are now (which still isn’t all that great). What it is going to take is group cooperation and sacrifice by all of the fighter’s involved and them pushing Zuffa to make a move it doesn’t want to take.
I’d say they do owe it to them. The majority of fighters in the ufc don’t make a lot of money… without that lower tier of talent you’d have a lot less fights and a lot less shows.
Many of these guys could be safely classified as kids… its not right to grant them healthcare. There’s a whole movement in business to create a code of conduct similar to the hypocratic oath… people are finding out that good ethics equates to good business figures.
who said Zuffa owed it to the fighters
I’m saying Zuffa owes it to themselves.
Long term thinking is very foreign to the corporate mentality but it shouldn’t be.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Even then, let's use Shogun as an example
If Shogun were an American, his “in cage” knee injury would still be covered by the UFC supplied insurance.
BUT, if he then went and got private health insurance, that same knee would not be covered, now or in the future. Not just for the same injury, but the knee in general – broken kneecap, different ligaments torns, meniscus ruptured, arthritis, NOTHING would be covered for that knee. Ever. Period.
HOWEVER, if he was on a group policy with the UFC, pre-existing conditions do not apply and he would be covered completely.
Please don’t start the idiotic “but Shogun is rich, blah, blah, blah” – I am only using him as an example of a recent injury everyone here is familiar with.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 3, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
That's not necessaily true
Maybe if he chose a shitty company for coverage
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
EVERY major insurance carrier that offers individual policies
Uses almost identical underwriting guidelines, and they all include the pre-existing conditions clauses.
This is by far the biggest dilemma (aside from cost) regarding the health insurance debate in the U.S. If you think about it for a moment, their reasoning is obvious – without it they would almost exclusively insure the least healthy among us.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 3, 2010 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
We all had to be responsible at their age, and we’re going to absolve them of it because we want to see them fight on TV?
http://www.instrength.com
We all had to be responsible at their age
Woah Woah Woah!
We did?
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Aug 3, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I turn 21 in a week and I have no fucking clue what I'm doing
I throw raps that attack like the Japs on Pearl Harbor/MC's be out like bank robbers/Fleeing the scene, to be a sole survivor/DJ the getaway driver/Tried to dip but he dive, I socialize on vocal vibes/On tracks stabbed up with razor sharp knives
by Anthony Pace on Aug 3, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So, a person is responsible enough to make a decision to enter a cage and fight another human being for money, but not responsible enough to make an informed decision on whether to purchase health insurance?
Fighters aren’t children. They make their own decisions. His manager and/or financial advisor should have informed him of the peril of gambling on not getting hurt, and he should have made his decisoin accordingly.
they're not children
from the UFC’s perspective they’re fucking assets. They can either invest in their upkeep or not. If they want the best assets they should take care of them.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Then why does any company provide health care? I know I am replaceable.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Aug 3, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Which is why the UFC should do the same, imho.
They just have the additional benefit of protecting valuable commodities.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Aug 3, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
They have no reason to though. They’re at the top of the heap. No one else can compete with them, so it’s just not something they need to dangle. Like I said above, it might be something Strikeforce could look into, but it would bankrupt them.
http://www.instrength.com
Then it goes back to keeping their guys healthy. I do know they take care of some of their own (Nate Quarry) so maybe they do want to but continue to find it cost prohibitive.
I think it is safe to say they could and should do more.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Aug 3, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
so are promotions
as callous as that is to the UFC or any other promotion for that matter
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
high value assets
that are able to look around and compare how assets are treated by competitive owners are a whole nother issue.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Yes, it is. If Strikeforce started offering healthcare for it’s fighters, it…wait, it would go out out of business.
http://www.instrength.com
I'm not talking about Strikeforce
I’m talking about the real competition — the NFL.
Where is the guy who beat Brock Lesnar in the NCAA? oh yeah he’s in the NFL. Personally I want to see the very best athletes in the world in MMA. call me selfish.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Hey, I agree with that
I just think you’re using Dana White’s gambling habits as a crutch to say that the UFC is at the point that they can afford or are responsible for that kind of expense. Maybe one day down the road that will make fiscal sense and will work to draw athletes to the sport. But you’re getting way ahead of yourself IMO.
http://www.instrength.com
The top 5-10 in each weight class is an asset. The rest are as replaceable as batteries in a remote and are not true assets.
by Brent Nahmias on Aug 3, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
this isn't about the current generation
this is about the kids considering the sport.
for every top 10 fighter there are 1000 with as much ability who dont even enter the sport because it’s not attractive enough.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
do you think we should leave this up to the fighters? they’re a bunch of young jocks. let’s take care of this for them and let them spend their brain power learning to fight.
Nate, the crux of your argument is “Well, these guys are too stupid for their own good. Hence, we must give them health care.” That’s a fallacious arguement to begin with. This is America. These are grown men. They can make their own choices. Joe Stevenson makes GOOD money. He makes more money than a lot of other people who manage to pay for their own insurance, like my parents. If Joe Stevenson decides not to spend his money on health insurance, that was his choice. He decided it wasn’t worth the money to him. He thought his money was better spent elsewhere. And that’s his right to do so. Was it smart? NO. Should we suggest he do otherwise? Yes. Should the UFC or some other agency be forced to provide him with health care? No. They pay him a lot of money. He can afford private health care. This isn’t like he’s a scrub making $2,000 and $2,000.
Check out my MMA highlight videos!
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well that's the system we're currently working under
right?
does it work?
do the fighters have insurance?
how bout we start a petition drive telling them to man up and be smart?
will that solve the problem?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Maybe letting them know that buying health insurance or putting some of that Fight of The Night money in a Health Savings Account is a better option than blowing it on hookers and booze would be a good idea. Possibly they could add this to the next fighter’s summit or whatever they call it.
But they’re grown men. If they don’t want to spend their money on health insurance that’s their choice, however stupid that may be. The best you can do is try to educate them on how it would be beneficial to their careers and their long term health to have health insurance. But if Joe Stevenson takes his $265K a year and can’t figure out how to parlay that into some health insurance, that’s not on anyone else’s head than his. He got a $65,000 Fight of The Night bonus in Febuary. He could have put some of that in a Health Savings Acount instead of blowing it on whatever. He made $265K last year before taxes. That’s $22K a month to work with. Around $700 a day. If you can’t find a way to either pay for health insurance or sock some $$$ away for a rainy day with that kind of income, I just don’t know what to tell you.
Check out my MMA highlight videos!
http://www.dailymotion.com/WheelchairBandit
You know well
he didn’t actually take home that much money.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
that doesn't matter.
in all professions, you have the option of purchasing insurance, whether through your company (w/company picking up some/most of the tab) or on your own (not all companies offer health insurance). my company pays me ok, and in the end i make the informed decision to take out health insurance…why? b/c I’ve been educated that it is in my best interest to do so. Joe Stevenson is no dummy. He has 2-3 kids, maybe more, as well as a wife. and what does he do? he CHOOSES to live his life w/out health insurance.
my point is: everyone has a choice.
now do i believe that the UFC should provide some sort of health care options? yes, but until that time happens these guys should start using common sense and either 1) get another part time job that offers h/i, or 2) get h/i on their own. it’s not a difficult decision to make, especially given their choice in occupation.
300K in salary
Plus "Father Dana’s bonuses" and sponsoships. It’s be safe to assume he grossed 700K
His expenses are federal (50%) and state tax, his agent’s 10%, his trainers age adn the (probably) 30 of gross he pays in child support. All of that is money he doesn’t see.
And he lives in Cali with a probably high mortgage and growing boys.
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
hmmm i have to question if joe daddy is so financially well-off at the moment, if he’s finding himself in this situation. if he was flush with cash, wouldn’t he just say “screw it, i’ll just pay for treatment” ?
www.tapology.com | twitter @tapology
I think it was a combo of "I don't need it" and "it will be a burden"
Assuming the 700K holds strong, the ex-wife probably get’s 30% off top(maybe more because he’s a "star). He’s taxed 50% on the 700 plus state taxes. If he worked in another state with state taxes, he has to pay those too. Add agent money, training money, etc, he really only sees a very small percentage of his salary.
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
"Plus "Father Dana’s bonuses" and sponsoships. It’s be safe to assume he grossed 700K"
No, it’s not. It’s convenient conjecture for an argument you’re making, but not safe to assume.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
by Luke Thomas on Aug 3, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I was being quite liberal with the numbers
My point was still proven, Joe sees a small percentage of his income.
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Say he didn't make any bonuses
300k pays for health insurance and a quite nice living aside from that as well as training camps, etc.
If a man cant live on 300k…. forget him, ya know? Its his life. He was given more opportunities than most of us will ever get – even those of us who are covered by our employers. Hopefully he can get back on the right track.
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
Nah.
50% goes to fed, that’s 150K left.
State taxes come off the top too. Joe falls in the highest bracket, so that’s 10%. 120K left
His agent gets 10%. 90K left. Training and nutrition another 10%, that’s 60K.
Joe has two kids with his first wife so he has C/S (probably 30%) and that comes before deductions meaning around 30-35K left.
Not that much left. And that’s for Joe Stevenson. Imagine a lower fighter.
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
To add
Joe has to make sure he SAVES a ton of that since his ability to make money at this job is a very short window.
Most people forget this. Lets say a fighter actually takes home 100K one year. That’s 2 and 1/2 years of my income (lets say two since I actually get a 401k and health benefits). He can only make that money until he is 30ish. I can make that money until I am 70+
In the long run, I make more money than a 100K earning fighter.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
Basically
Joe has a 5-6 year window to cram as much money as he can. And that’s Joe, the average UFC fighter has 2 or 3 fights
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
Two questions
1) did you read the post? did you miss this part:
Whenever I post about fighter issues a number of commenters accuse me of “feeling sorry” for the fighters. No. This is a purely selfish thing. If we, as fans, want the very best fighters in the UFC and we want them fighting their best, some kind of fighter’s health insurance program would be ideal.
2) Do you want to see the best athletes in MMA performing at their best? If you want to leave it up to a bunch of testosterone junkies to take care of this shit we’re never going to see a majority of truly world class athletes in the UFC. We’re getting closer but not quite there yet.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Exactly
If the UFC makes the decision for them, like they do so many other things, by providing health insurance it is in the UFC’s best interest as far as product quality and fights lost due to training injuries.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 3, 2010 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
You always accuse people of “not reading the post”. Obviously I read the post, Nate. I just don’t understand what the point is. It’s a fantasy. Dana White is running a business, and even as a fan, I don’t expect him to shell out for every little thing a fighter needs so I can watch top flight MMA. It’s not a company’s ironclad responsibility to provide these things, it’s on an adult to handle his issues responsibly.
And I think you’re majorly underestimating the cost of providing healthcare to 200+ fighters. The sport isn’t at that point yet.
http://www.instrength.com
bullshit
if the UFC is spinning enough profit for Dana to literally flush millions down the toilet gambling, they can afford to insure the fighters.
And if the fighters had any brains or balls they’d organize themselves. Did you miss the part about the Fighter’s Association. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
I gave the UFC 3 choices, one of them is get the hell out of the way.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Guess what
Joe stevenson is as replaceable as whatever janitor vaccums up the Zuffa office.
He’s lucky he gets paid enough to be able to easily afford that 500 a month if he was smart because medicore 20-30 LWs that can’t do much besides wrestle and catch obvious guillotines aren’t hard to find.
by Brent Nahmias on Aug 3, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
"Joe stevenson is as replaceable as whatever janitor vaccums up the Zuffa office."
It’s sentiments like this that prove that many MMA fans are consuming vultures who only care about the returns on their entertainment and not the sport. Great attitude, buddy.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
by Luke Thomas on Aug 3, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 21 recs
^^^ This comment needs to go green.
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
"I thought I was getting raped by Freddy Mercury."
- Tank Abbot
on his decision loss to Dan Severn in 1995
That has not much to do with MMA
and EVERYTHING to do with American general Capitalistically influenced society
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
The truth remains the truth.
90% of the new fans that MMA has gained since 2005 feel the exact same way.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 3, 2010 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Welcome, this article is going to get a shit ton of comments.
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry I’m late, but then again, not really – this is kind of silly.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 3, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Theres some gold in here it’s just not meant to be
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s exactly what Nate said above when he said he didn’t care about the individual fighters, but only the UFC as a brand having fighters in its stable.
-i don’t care what’s best for the fighters as individuals
-i care what’s best for the sport as a whole
-i really don’t
-i’m an asshole like that.
by Steven Abbott on Aug 3, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
It doesn't come with the territory
Let’s face it— The MMA “base” or whatever the hell you want to call it is comprised largely of individual males who have a dogmatic view of what it means to be a “real” man: if you’re hurt, fight through it; never expect a hand out; if you don’t like it, you can be replaced, so man the fuck up.
I throw raps that attack like the Japs on Pearl Harbor/MC's be out like bank robbers/Fleeing the scene, to be a sole survivor/DJ the getaway driver/Tried to dip but he dive, I socialize on vocal vibes/On tracks stabbed up with razor sharp knives
when joe daddy fought bj and was giving everything he got, even with all the blood dripping down his face, that got me all emotional, have you forgot everything he has done, most mma fans are assholes and bandwagon jumpers
by hot mma chick on Aug 3, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
As to your screenname
Pics or GTFO
I throw raps that attack like the Japs on Pearl Harbor/MC's be out like bank robbers/Fleeing the scene, to be a sole survivor/DJ the getaway driver/Tried to dip but he dive, I socialize on vocal vibes/On tracks stabbed up with razor sharp knives
by Anthony Pace on Aug 3, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
Why is this not green?
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Nate, I agreed with the organization point. I said it right up ^ there. But your gambling excuse has nothing to do with the issue, it’s just a crutch. I’m saying that as an MMA fan, I think that providing healthcare for the fighters is not something that’s in the UFC’s best interests right now. I agree with your point about it being on the fighter. Not the other ones.
http://www.instrength.com
that's just the most vivid example of the kind of surplus
that Zuffa is running.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
My thoughts
About Joe Stevenson: Yes he was a fool for not paying the 6K a year for health insurance. But I will fully support Kid Nate that Dana needs to set something up for his fighters. As a fan (and someone who’s stuck in the medical field) the fights aren’t going to last forever. For ever 1 Couture or Liddell, you get about 100 Karo’s.
About Dana White: He SHOULD set something up for quality fighters. I would think that even McMahon has something set aside for John Cena, his son-in-law, and other high profile people. Why can’t Dana even make the effort for that?
And if you think fighters in Canada don’t have to sweat the issue, you don’t know how it works. Do Canadians have to pay for it? No. Would they have to wait up to 18 months for surgery, which stalls a career out so bad they end up going to the states and paying for it anyway? Bingo. Every fighter in every country has different issues when it comes to this.
http://www.instrength.com
A poor MMA fighter
Ask Brock. If you’re making millions, you have no complaints about the American H/C system.
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
In exchange for better social services.
And it used to be more when things like power and gas were government regulated.
My wife grew up in Boston and her parents moved to Toronto to be closer to us as we plan to start a family, last year and they are very appreciative of what the higher taxes get people in Canada.
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
"I thought I was getting raped by Freddy Mercury."
- Tank Abbot
on his decision loss to Dan Severn in 1995
Between federal, state and local taxes, including sales and property taxes
Mine is closer to 35%. And I live in “no state income tax” Texas.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 3, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Joe gets more than that
He’s probably around 55%
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I dunno what state taxes are in CA
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I looked it up and posted about it.
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 4, 2010 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Just to clarify...
In Canada, 30 – 40% comes directly off your pay check
You still have to pay around at least 5% on every purchase, and up to 15% on most depending on where you live
You still have to pay property tax
You still have to pay for dental work, etc.
And?
Education is cheaper/free. Medical care is cheaper/free.
And girls can take their tops off in strip joints, which is worth at least 5% of your income right there.
Koscheck eats it.
"And girls can take their tops off in strip joints"
…and bottoms…
I’m just saying we pay for healthcare, but we pay for it differently.
Personally, I like our system better, but free healthcare isn’t really free.
You need to go to better strip clubs. In Tampa I got a lap dance at a fully nude club and was told I could touch anything, but her reproductive organ. After looking around to the guys on the right and left I concluded that I had heard her correctly and would not get beat up by an angry bouncer. I am now spoiled and do not enter clubs not in Tampa. New Orleans has some good ones, but not like that.
I get more rec's then a Toyota!
verbiage win
I could touch anything, but her reproductive organ
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
The waiting 18 months is a load of BS in Canada. You have a bad injury that needs fixing you either get it done right away or wait a few weeks. This has happened to me personally with a bad knee injury.
Waiting times are bullshit but you can’t write it off like you have to wait years for surgeries for bad injuries.
But as it is stated lower, if you are rich and can afford it you will get fixed quicker in the US.
Sheeeeeeeee-it
by Clay Davis on Aug 3, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe we live in different provinces or something, but I’m speaking from experience. I’ve waited 18 months to have a training injury repaired.
http://www.instrength.com
I’m in Ontario, and what i’m mentioning was about 5 years ago, maybe things have changed. I had a blown out knee from hockey, they got me in surgery in 10 days. Maybe it was because i couldn’t walk.
Sheeeeeeeee-it
I’m in BC. It was my shoulder. I could walk, so I was functional, but I couldn’t train or do anything along those lines.
http://www.instrength.com
It’s about priority I suppose.
I don’t know, the Ontario health care system, while pretty heavily taxed is also very efficient.
Trust me it could be worse, I lived in Montreal for 7 years and the Quebec healthcare system is awful.
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
"I thought I was getting raped by Freddy Mercury."
- Tank Abbot
on his decision loss to Dan Severn in 1995
Yea, it’s amazing how much it varies by province. We have to wait 3-5 hours in an emergency room to see a doctor in Vancouver. In Ottawa, it was less than an hour. Obviously, that’s case by case and might not be indicative of the greater system, but it’s just funny to me that we’re all supposed to get the same thing and we don’t.
Oh, and for everyone that thinks all Canadians get healthcare for free…think again. People in BC have to pay a monthly premium for it.
http://www.instrength.com
It varies by Region as well. I talked to someone the other day at a walk in clinic in Niagara. They’re son came to the walk in clinic to get stitches on a 5 inch gash on his hand. The hospital that they went to told them they would have to wait around 13 hours for help.
The walk in clinic was able to help him within a hour. Around these parts you have to be near death to get help in the emergency room.
Sheeeeeeeee-it
The waiting times vary everywhere...
It is as simple as some days being busier than others and some injuries having a higher priority rating than others. I have been to the hospital before and waited over two hours for “triage.”
Unless you are bleeding and at risk of dying, you wait for triage.
Triage determines how long you wait after that. I have waited anywhere from an hour and a half to 13 hours at the hospital before.
Easy solution to your emergency room problem.
Call a doctor and make an appointment.
I took my kid to a drop-in clinic on the weekend and waited eight minutes. The emergency room is for emergencies.
Koscheck eats it.
Yeah, if you can't walk it is one thing
but other injuries that are less threatening to the day to day can result in lengthy waits.
rec'd for handle and quote.
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
my points have nothing to do with Joe Stevenson
beyond the fact that if this guy doesn’t have health insurance, how many of the young struggling fighters do you think do?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
And don’t misunderstand. I’m not saying this is OK, simply that this is a larger problem than just fighters. This is a huge problem across our society.
we don't care about society here at BE
we just care about seeing the best possible MMA. If we want the best athletes fighting at their best we need to make it as easy and cheap as humanly possible for them to be healthy.
The Kentucky Derby doesn’t scrimp on health care for the horses, why should the UFC?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Should we also force them into good training camps
Can we regulate their diets?
Can we make wrestlers wrestle?
Again
How you can equate Company Heath Bennies, something NORMAL, to these other strange ideas baffles me.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Aug 3, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
he's not awake yet
have you read the guy’s tweets? he’s a bitter stoner from Arkansas. it’s really kind of sad.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
"if Dana were to take one night's gambling losses he could likely insure about 100 UFC fighters for a year."
Get ready for the backlash against that line.
Billion dollar company can’t/won’t insure employees who bring them that most of that wealth? Pathetic. Even Vince McMahon has an insurance policy for his circus animals.
Does he? When did that happen?
Wrestlers don’t have health insurance
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
this is true
and is a big part of the reason why so many are dead at 45. If you think that doesn’t impact the WWE’s ability to attract talent you’re as brain damaged as Chris Benoit.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
They really don’t? Wow. Even here in Mexico Luchadores for the AAA get private health insurance (apart from the mandatory payments to the public healthcare system), AFORE (retirement funds where both the employee and the employer make payments monthly) and even INFONAVIT (some sort of housing fund).
Is health insurance really THAT expensive for the employer?
yeah the US system is utterly fucked
and obama care only made it worse. but that’s off topic
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Aug 3, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Right on call Nate
Someone needs to take a stance on this issue without sweeping it under the rug.
Its not that hard to set up a fighter insurance plan. Damage to the bottomline will be minimal.
Fighters are independent contractors, not Zuffa employees
That’s the same tactic WWE has used for years to prevent pro wrestlers from getting many of the benefits that employees typically receive. The legal distinction between independent contractor and employee makes a huge difference when it comes to the application (or non-application) of benefits, taxation (payroll taxes, social security, unemployment, etc).
A fighters association providing an optional insurance plan would be the better way to go so that coverage continues even if you get cut from Zuffa. I think the big problem with MMAFA is that it seems to have no relationship with MMA fighters, which makes it kind of pointless (and you can see the same thing in boxing fighting associations that don’t seem to have any input from fighters).
by mma_critic on Aug 3, 2010 11:22 AM EDT reply actions
Except that I.C. argument doesn't hold water
I remember Meltzer posting the 15 or so criteria for I.C. and being asthonished at how many of the the WWE doesn’t do.
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Since you seem to be familiar with legal issues and a wrestling fan, maybe you can do a story exploring the lawsuit a few wrestlers – I think Scott Levy (Raven), Chris Canyon, and one other – brought against WWE claiming that WWE illegally classified wrestlers as independent contractors instead of employees.
by mma_critic on Aug 3, 2010 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
You know, I have been looking for things to write
That sounds like a great idea.
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
I wasn’t sure if they lost or if it got dismissed.
Also, everyone should check out this New York Times article on Linda McMahon, since it addresses a lot of the same issues about the independent contractor status. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/16/nyregion/16mcmahon.html?scp=6&sq=linda+mcmahon&st=nyt
by mma_critic on Aug 3, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
off topic, but
the UFC updated it’s website, It looks great, but it’s a bit slow, and has a few bugs…
Cry me a river
Boo hoo I made 250-300k fighting the last year and a quarter but am too cheap to pay for my own health insurance.
I swear BE is becoming less and less about mma and more and more about random Zuffa bellyaching.
again
you didn’t read the post or you can’t read very well.
Did I ask anyone to even give the slightest shit about Joe Stevenson?
No.
Do you want to see the best fucking MMA fights possible? Then support health insurance for the fighters. That’s what this is about.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
No you really are just writing bullshit to cry for the sake of crying.
If they cut all bonuses/payouts by 5-10% and provided insurance you would just be crying about lower payouts.
by Brent Nahmias on Aug 3, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
It was nice knowing you
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not banning him
As long as the UFC gives less than half the revenue to the performers that fans pay to see than the industry standard i’m going to keep bitching.
Someone has to.
Why don’t you go somewhere else if you can’t stand to see honest constructive criticism of the UFC?
I’m honestly trying to help them.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Why should they pay them more? Buisnesses are out to make money, my boss pays out much less than half of the revenue but guess what me like 95% of fighters are nothing special and always always replaceable.
by Brent Nahmias on Aug 3, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
um
because they want the next generation of NFL and NBA caliber athletes to look at all three sports and say, hmm I think I’m going to pick MMA.
It’s really that simple.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
It’s much simpler, they are insanely profitable not getting most of those athletes so they have zero reason to change outside of internet bellyaching.
by Brent Nahmias on Aug 3, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Plus when it comes to treatment of their athletes if you knew anything about the NFL you would know they make ZUFFA look like angels. If you aren’t a first/2nd round pick in the NFL and you get injuries at the start of your career? You’re cut and forgotten in a split second. Not to mention limping around like an old man at the age of 25.
by Brent Nahmias on Aug 3, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
that could be a competitive advantage for zuffa
would make it much much easier to recruit the next Ray Lewis or Steve Neal
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
but they could actually be the #1 sport in the country
if they do things right and make even bigger profits
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
For all Dana's talk about making MMA the biggest sport in the world...
I’m not buying it. He wants the UFC to be the most profitable MMA franchise in the world, but the Zuffa profit margins are more important than the long term health of the sport.
Think of how long it took major team sports in the USA to unionize and get better pay, benefits, etc. Now that they have it, ever few years the players union or CBA and the owners get out of synch, and the whole show can grind to a halt.
No way do Dana or the Fertittas want that headache when they can continue to operate business as usual. They’ve done a lot for the sport, but they are ultimately out for a profit…now that they are making money hand over fist, they aren’t going to start giving out health insurance and take away from their bottom line…if anything they’d boost the price of PPV shows by 15%, and put about 5% towards insurance and the rest into their pockets…it’s sucks, but it’s just the way of the world.
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
by Snatchl on Aug 3, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
One phrase - Pre-existing Conditions
Even if these guys bought individual policies, no injury they have every been diagnosed with or treated for is covered. Ever.
Had your left knee scoped 6 years ago in school? ALL injuries or ailments related to that knee are uncovered by the insurance. FOREVER.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 3, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
My employer has corporate health insurence
and I am really glad they do. I know for a fact my stupid ass wouldn’t have it otherwise. It’s really the least ZUFFA could do to help take care of the guys who fill their coffers.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
To add
I’m not sure the Karo situation fits. IIRC, he could have had the UFC take care of those injuries and he just decided to handle it like a tard instead.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Aug 3, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
he could have?
since when do they pay for surgeries for injuries sustained in training?
they wouldn’t even pay Tito for injuries sustained in fights.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I thought they did in Karos case. I may be mistaken. I was pretty sure I heard him talk about it with Rogan once.
Tito f’ed himself with the insurance company claiming it was pre-existing. That was actually something the UFC did have insurance to cover, Tito’s mouth just messed it up for him.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Aug 3, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
So in other words
If Tito would have lied and said he had never been injured there before, or treated for it before he would have been covered.
That’s called insurance fraud
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 3, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Most people don't think it would have been a lie
he was making his typical excuses. Regardless, that’s less on the UFC and more on how insurance companies work.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Aug 3, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Something being overlooked in all of this is pre-existing conditions
Any injury or almost any ailment a fighter has ever been treated for will not be covered under individual insurance – in a group policy they have to accept them without the preexisting conditions bullshit provisions.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
To the extent you’re correct, that’s extremely relevant.
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by The Darkness on Aug 3, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Nate, a question for you.
Doesn’t teh UFC pay for treatment that is related to anything that happens in the fights?
If so, then we are talking about his own personal insurance here, correct?
Not offering an opinion here, just a sincere question to clarify this.
Yes they do.
If you get injured inside the cage, they pay for it.
However, most injuries happen during training.
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
They cover injuries that occur in The Octagon, but not outside of it. That also means no coverage for injuries that occur in training camps for bouts that are already signed.
by mma_critic on Aug 3, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
And
If they were to provide insurance, wouldn’t this also allow them to dictate terms even more? Exclusive contracts, you can’t compete in Sambo/BJJ, etc?
If they provide insurance, they're an employer
And that brings in a whole other load of shit.
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Another point
Athletic commissions often require the promoter to have insurance for the card. So covering Octagon-related injuries isn’t really a generous thing on Zuffa’s part; it’s something they have to do. That said, they may – and probably do – go above and beyond what’s required. Maybe BE could check up on Corey Hill and see what Zuffa did to help.
by mma_critic on Aug 3, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'll also toss out
That I am willing to bet money that Zuffa provides insurance to most, if not all, of its employees. Fighters are currently independent contractors, but Zuffa could (but won’t) alter the contracts to make them Zuffa employees and include them on the existing Zuffa insurance plan.
by mma_critic on Aug 3, 2010 11:28 AM EDT reply actions
WHAT?
$500 a month is f*cking dirt cheap for health insurance, and NOTHING compared to the cost of treating injuries.
Last year I got three stitches in my pinky and the bill was like $1,100.
$500 a month is f*cking dirt cheap for health insurance
….
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Aug 3, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Add it all up
I am a small business owner and have to provide my own health insurance. For myself, my wife and our 4 daughters it is $1073 per month. In addition, we each have a $1500 deductible and a $5500 out-of pocket max, again for each of us.
Worse, all conditions prior to the insurance are exempted from it (my left knee and right shoulder as well as other internal issues, and similar things for the rest of my family). Since they are not covered, they don’t count towards deductible or out-of-pocket limits.
For tax year 2009, we spent just over $36,800 for health insurance and medical expenses. Of course, without the insurance, the same things would have cost well in excess of $100,000.00
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 3, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
The problem, is as usual, twisting the old knife and not forgetting a previous foolish statement when you could move on with life.
If it was as simple as the Dana taking the 500k off the blackjack table and putting into insurance, you would have a point, but running the UFC isn’t as simple as people would like to pretend it is. The independent contractor thing is a problem that many people with high risk jobs (dangerous construction, etc) in this country have. The reality is, it’s cheaper for everyone to get the insurance on their own that it would be for the UFC to get insurance for 200 fighters and their families.
Also, people need to drop the idea of the UFC “encouraging” or starting some sort of union or anything like that. When has management ever encouraged or started a union? If the fighters want to organize, they can and they should. Stop asking Zuffa to do it, because it makes no sense for them to do it.
they're going to have to get out of the way
for it to happen. It’s almost impossible to unionize in the U.S. in 2010 if you’re not already a legacy union. Everything is tilted against it from the bought and paid for judges to the bought and paid for legislators to the bought and paid for media to the bought and paid for regulators.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
More workers
are union in the US than ever before. This is quickly turning to a political topic masked as an MMA topic.
Business Decision
How can you consider it a complicated business decision for him to choose whether or not to buy health insurance? I am 28 years old and don’t participate in any dangerous behavior and pay $200/month. Would you be willing to risk paying for all of his injuries incurred while training as a fighter for $500/month. Sounds pretty cheap to me.
Is anyone an insurance expert
I’m not sure, but I could see how it would be prohibitively expensive for the UFC to insure fighters. In most states there is some random way for independent Joe to get health insurance. Its usually way more expensive than a group plan because of adverse selection.
I don’t know though if insurers would even want to work with the UFC since well its a crappy to insure employees who fight for a living.
It might make a lot more financial sense for everyone to just get insurance through the standard independent contractor employment mechanisms. I think that may be an undercurrent here that people are avoiding. I’m just not an expert.
Also lets be clear, I still opt into my company health insurance and make 100 dollar or so co pay, would Joe Daddy even make this?
Not indefinitely
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-lifetimeinsurance092607
I don’t know the details, but we at least need to consider the fact that it may be horribly inefficient for the UFC to provide health insurance. I suppose having health insurance could be a precondition for fighting in the UFC. I just want to have an intelligent conversation about what this will really cost the UFC and whether there is a more efficient way to do this.
then they should be willing to step aside
and allow/encourage the organization of a fighter’s association that can get affordable group policies.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Hell, they could use their own royalties
on the UFC game from likeness rights and supplement it with earnings from the EA game to help pay for insurance.
Oh. Right. A fighters association is also gonna want their image rights back. Honest question: Who hear thinks the UFC would trade back the lifetime likeness rights to get health coverage. Really think about it.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I'm not sure a fighters organization...
would be better at getting more affordable health insurance then fighters independently.
I think there are reasons why it might be more expensive.
please elaborate
this is the first i’ve heard of it being easier for individuals in high risk professions to get affordable insurance than large pools of people.
There’s something called statistical risk analysis that would make that a very bad business decision for insurers.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I think I'm familiar
I do credit policy for a large credit card company. So I might be evil, but I know about adverse selection.
Well yes larger risk pools where people are forced to enter in usually avoid adverse selection. As a result its cheaper for me to get health insurance through my company than on the open market . Part of the reason is that the health insurance my employer pays is non taxable income, but its also because someone independently getting health insurance likely isn’t as healthy.
In the case of a fighters union, all of the fighters are insanely risky so who wants to insure that? When a fighter instead applies for individual insurance his work may or may not be taken into account. If his work isn’t taken into account then he is just assumed to be an average high risk person looking for independent health insurance. Its still a high risk pool, but its likely higher risk than a pool of fighters.
Whether this is actually the case in practice I don’t know. It’s really why I’m hoping someone has industry/personal expertise so can elaborate on some of the finer economic pools.
The NFL has billions of dollars a year in revenue.
by ufc4 on Aug 3, 2010 11:54 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
On this issue UFC is worse than even WWE!
At least WWE pays for all medical expenses for injuries picked up while wrestling for the company. The better professional wrestling comparison would be TNA. Indeed there was a very similar story about TNA wrestler Homicide in this week’s Wrestling Observer Newsletter. At least Dixie Carter has the excuse that they’re losing tons of money at the moment. What’s Dana’s?
UFC pays for injuries endured in the cage
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, very true. But MMA guys are training 300 days a year as well. Injuries are picked up while training in both. WWE guys just do it in different gyms.
http://www.instrength.com
Yes, but in this case the WWE has a more obvious obligation it can’t argue against, and it needs to get guys in the ring ASAP.
I think you hit on an important issue. The UFC only needs about 10-15 of their top guys to be healthy, the rest are pretty replaceable as they don’t drive PPV buys or ticket sales.
" Real talk - A gorilla would shit kick Brock." – ElliotMatheny
in the short term
but the next generation of GSPs, Brock Lesnars, Lebron James, Shaq’s etc are looking closely at the options on the table. They all start out at the bottom.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Actually most NFL insurance is through the arena itself (having medical staff on hand) and through the huge corps in general not just the players. Not applicable in the slightest.
Completely agree...
THe NFL is a multiBILLION dollar industry… THis is comparing apples to oranges AND the NFL DOESNT take care of the retired players as someone suggested they do
I know that many, if not most, MMA fans don’t care about the health and well being of the fighters,
This is a troll statement if I’ve ever heard one. If MMA fans don’t care about the health and well-being of fighters, then why the hell was there so much outrage at the suggestion of Chuck fighting Jon Jones?
The fact of the matter is, these fighters are voluntarily signing contracts. Nobody’s putting a gun to their head, and nobody on planet Earth is automatically entitled to pursue their dream without putting something on the line. In this case, it’s health and financial security.
It would be nice if every fighter retired as a multimillionaire with full benefits, but we’re out here in the real world – and fighters know it.
by MMABookworm on Aug 3, 2010 11:39 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Don’t use common sense when people are too busy portraying others as the devil and crying.
I totally saw Dana and the fertita’s holding guns to multiple fighters heads when they were trying to get fights signed.
by Brent Nahmias on Aug 3, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Because that's low on entertainment
Most fans don’t know any professional grapplers or fighters. If they did their tune would change quickly. Mike Easton is a top American bantamweight, has his own school, is a blackbelt under Lloyd Irvin. Pretty successful, right? Still has no insurance. He got his arm shattered in a fight seconds in and Irvin paid for the surgery out of pocket. What would happen if Irvin weren’t so generous? I’ll tell you: his career would be over before it ever got started.
The issue is finding a comprehensive solution to what is obviously a huge problem, or at least one that’s going to be made more apparent very soon.
The overwhelming majority of fighters in America do not have insurance or are only minimally covered and it greatly impacts their quality of life.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
You seem to be arguing something different than Nate though. You’re looking at it from a practical standpoint, and he’s looking at it from “I want to see the best MMA and this is what needs to happen”.
http://www.instrength.com
Yeah
I think I’m speaking more to the callousness of fans and how that impacts the fighters lives. Fighters, of course, have choices to make, but they’re going to act recklessly without safety nets time and again. That’s not even taking into account smart decisions that end up badly. I think if more fans were aware of the severity of the problem then having some kind of solution for fighters in the UFC to maintain their health wouldn’t be so controversial.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
I think the callousness comes from the “No one cares if I have health insurance fuck this rich guy” kind of mentality. Not saying it’s good it’s just where I see it coming from.
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Hey
How many Lesnars are on this site? Barack, Brock, Black. Who’s next?
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
So elitist BE has a Lesnar in every weightclass
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I think it went
Black then Brock then Barack
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Fuck it was Broke Lesnar not Brock Lesnar
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
I was the original
The rest…mere followers
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
To be honest I was a convert
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, a religious follower
a Lesnian, if it were
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I do like the girls
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you think Nate is correct in saying (I’m paraphrasing here) “These kids are dumb jocks and it’s obvious they can’t take care of themselves, so someone else should?”
http://www.instrength.com
Fucking TUF making everyone look bad
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m just curious why you think guys like you and me have to take care of ourselves but they should be held to a different standard. Maybe I’m misreading the argument, this is where I’m losing track. I don’t know that many fighters, and that might be the disconnect, but I don’t understand what the difference is.
http://www.instrength.com
because guys like you and me
are not freak athletes.
face it, some people have the potential to be worth much much more to society than the rest of us.
This isn’t about the fighters, it’s about what’s best for us as fans.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
yeah
if the UFC wants to have the best athletes and truly be the biggest sport in the world — Dana’s oft-stated goal — they need to step in and do what it takes.
The NCAA certainly asswipes and spoonfeeds the NFL and the NBA’s prospects
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
look
i’m not interested in SHOULD. I’m interested in IS.
There is a tiny tiny fraction of the population with the genetic gifts and mental discipline to be top flight fighters. Reducing the pool further to include only those who are also wise investors and shrewd long term thinkers leaves us with very little talent to draw on.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
did you read these comments?
the first sentiment expressed was “no sympathy”
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Too bad the first line of the article does not match up with anything you wrote below it.
by Brent Nahmias on Aug 3, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Why should people feel sympathy for Joe Daddy in this case when he was offered a VERY reasonable quote for health insurance?
I can’t get health insurance that cheap and I’m a single guy in good health behind a computer all day.
is anyone asking you to feel sympathy for the fighters?
No.
I’m asking that you think with your head as a fan who wants to see the best athletes in MMA.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Ladies and gentleman, our new heavyweight champion, Lebron James!
Oh wait…
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Steven Neal the guy who whipped Brock Lesnar in the NCAA for one
And imagine if Marcus Jones had started MMA at 21 instead of 36. repeat from there.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Whipped is kinda....overstating it
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Nate is right
there is no argument here, and there shouldn’t be 100+ comments. I get full health insurance to crunch numbers while sitting in a nice comfy chair. Full-contact fighters should get fucking health insurance from their fucking employer. There is no other perspective on this, and if there is, you’re fucking up.
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Aug 3, 2010 11:41 AM EDT reply actions 5 recs
You realize there’s a huge difference in cost in insurance for a professional fighter and a random desk jockey such as yourself, right?
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
i understand the difference in insurance between a fighter and myself. i just don’t give a shit. the UFC makes more than enough to insure these guys while under contract, just like the NFL makes enough that it should insure players for life. even though these guys make tons of money, as someone who is on the financial side of healthcare, the injuries these guys sustain can create problems that cost far too much even for millionaire former football players (including the ones who have been smart about their money).
i am just fucking sick of seeing the people who risk their bodies for my entertainment continue to get screwed.
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Aug 3, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
thank you for being a rare voice of sanity
look at the long term PR impact the head injury stuff is having on the NFL. think how many moms won’t let their sons play junior high football because of all the head injury news.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
heres some more fuel for you
500$ a month for the probably crappy plan that Joe Stevenson tried to get. Double that to 1000$ assuming the UFC would get a better plan than the one Joe tried. thats $12,000 per fighter per year. If the UFC has 400 fighters (which is a highball), that’s
$4,800,000 per year. that’s chump change.
Not to mention they could probably get a sweet bulk-corporate deal for it, so cut that back in half to $2,400,000, and since they don’t really have 400 fighters, cut it down to $2,000,000. that’s right. the UFC could insure all their fighters for $2,000,000 a year. they can afford it.
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Aug 3, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Invest in an insurance program for its fighters. This will more than pay for itself in positive PR, fighter retention, longer careers, fewer cancelled fights and easier recruiting of top athletes
From a purely financial standpoint, I can’t see how purchasing expensive insurance plans for all fighters under contract is good for Zuffa’s bottom line, especially for lower and mid tier fighters don’t draw fans and are not as difficult to replace.
It seems to me the fighters Zuffa has the biggest interest in keeping healthy make enough money to purchase insurance, whereas the guys who need help paying for coverage are not valuable enough to the UFC for Zuffa to help them out, hence the current policy. Nate, could you elaborate on why you disagree and it would be beneficial for Zuffa to have an insurance plan?
I already did
1) Good PR will help recruit more and better athletes
2) Longer careers
3) Less cancelled fights
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I was really surprised you did not run with that story about Thaigo Silva fighting Rashad hurt.
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
I forgot about that honestly
but yeah that’s a great example.
Here’s a top fighter going into a possible title eliminator’s match at less than his best. It’s a fucking waste of precious talent.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I really was curious how much of the story was true. Potential losses from scrapping the bout compated to what they might have paid Thiago. Still curious.
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
And Shogun fighting Machida hurt
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Fighting Machida hurt turned out to be the second way he could be defeated the sense of urgency might have been what won him the belt.
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand your points, but for the sake of argument:
1. MMA is already attracting large quantities of good athletes. As long is there is the potential to make lots of money, people will be willing to take the risks.
2. The guys who have trouble affording their own insurance are not the people selling pay-per-views. Will prolonging the careers of gatekeeper types really help Zuffa?
3. Zuffa does a pretty damn good job finding replacements and creating good fights when a fighter drops out. Would the benefits really outweigh the costs?
As an aside, I wish all fighters had insurance and there was no need to have this conversation. But I don’t take it a given that providing insurance for all fighters is a smart business decision for Zuffa.
do you want to be the fucking biggest sport in the world in 20 years?
that’s Dana’s goal.
1. at the top levels the differences between “good” and “very good” and “exceptional” and “great” are huge yawning gulfs. Look at the difference between GSP and the rest of the division. I want the best, not the pretty good.
2. Yes. It makes it that much easier to fill cards when you’ve got proven reliable guys like Chris Lytle around who can fight on main cards and get a pop or do the undercard with no complaints.
3. Did you miss the huge string of disasters from UFC 101 to UFC 116? They spent the better part of a year treading water because all their top draws were hurt or ill.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Health insurance would have done nothing to bring back GSP or Brock any quicker, don’t really see your point there.
by ufc4 on Aug 3, 2010 12:31 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The point is there are a number of fighters NOT getting surgery BECAUSE of no health insurance
GSP and Brock got the surgeries done because they could afford to, even without health insurance.
Fighters are putting off surgery because of the expense of health insurance, and therefore they are breaking down faster and having shorter careers. This also amplifies the number of fighters pulling out of fights due to recurring injuries that weren’t dealt with properly in the first instance (such as Karo Parysian).
it’s not good for their bottom line per se. but there is this thing called humanity. the UFC can pay an extra $2million per year to treat their people right
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Aug 3, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
That sucks, but I can’t say I feel sorry for the guy. He makes more than enough money to afford health insurance. I’m curious if he doesn’t have health insurance for just himself or if his whole family doesn’t have it because I know he has a kid. If he’s doesn’t have insurance for the rest of his family then that’s inexcusable.
→↓↘P
did you read the post
no one is asking you to feel sorry for Joe Daddy. This post is about what’s best for us as fans of the sport.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I did read the entire post, but I was just weighing in on Joe because there’s a lot of guys that think like him. Medical benefits in sports is always a sticky situation. I’d like some kind of policy for fighters, but with guys going in and out of organizations I think it would fairly tough task to insure everyone.
→↓↘P
that is much better
i’m just sick of the emotional bullshit being dragged in and everyone feeling all tough because they “don’t feel sorry” for anyone.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Great article, Nate
I just can´t understand how people would not agree with providing health insurances to fighters.
Maybe because I´m brazilian and don´t have this “they took our jobs!” mentality.
I would like to see a reporter have the cajones to ask Dana the question
“Dana, there was an article about you on The Boston Globe showing you spending $500 K a night in a casino. You could provide health insurance for your best fighters for a full year for a fraction of that. Without getting on the merit of your inveterate gambling, how do you respond?”
Por isso eu tomo ópio / é um remédio / sou um convalescente do momento / moro no rés-do-chão do pensamento / e ver passar a vida faz-me tédio
I guarantee you
Dana won’t have that guy back for a second press conference.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Nate
Have you ever attended or been invited to an UFC press conference?
Por isso eu tomo ópio / é um remédio / sou um convalescente do momento / moro no rés-do-chão do pensamento / e ver passar a vida faz-me tédio
fuck no
and i doubt if i’d go if i could.
I’m not a journalist, I’m a blogger.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I have. This question would never be asked by anyone who wants to continue to do business with the UFC. And that’s what credentialed media is: a PR branch.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 3, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
“You could provide health insurance for your best fighters for a full year for a fraction of that.”
This is not even close to being true.
by ufc4 on Aug 3, 2010 12:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
How much does the UFC spend on airfare and hotel rooms for fighters and isnt it two of your trainers?
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Fighter's Camps?
What about the possibility of the fighter’s camps providing some type of medical coverage for its fighters instead of the UFC doing it itself? I’m sure most of the camps are LLCs and have access to healthcare. I believe that the teams in the NFL provide health care for its players, so why not have camps do this for its fighters?
by JONBONESJONES79 on Aug 3, 2010 11:46 AM EDT reply actions
I agree
but doesn’t a majority of the money NFL teams receive come from the NFL itself? This would make certain camps more lucrative to future prospects?
by JONBONESJONES79 on Aug 3, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
probably a good way to scam the system would be for the camps to hire their fighters as instructors and get insurance through the individual camps. It’s probably cheaper for 20 people to insure 20 fight instructors than for a fight promoter to insure 400 fighters.
bq.It’s probably cheaper for 20 people to insure 20 fight instructors than for a fight promoter to insure 400 fighters.
Not on a per-person basis. The whole reason insurance works is because you spread your risk over the entire pool of people covered. Some people get hurt, but most don’t while still paying premiums. And even though the probability of a single fighter getting hurt stays fixed whether you have 20 or 400 fighters, the insurance company is dealing with a hell of a lot more risk if they only have 20 people in the pool instead of 400.
by mma_critic on Aug 3, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
if you are insuring them as instructors it could work.
That is the problem that people are missing while doing all the yelling. It costs more for a fight organization to insure fighters than it does for a fighter to get insurance on their own.
no it does not
you missed mma-critics whole point. what your describing is insurance fraud. if you get insured as an instructor and then get hurt training for a fight you’re liable to get declined.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I pay roughly $100 a month for my insurance.
Stevenson pulled in about 10 times more than me in the last year but his insurance would only cost five times as much.
Should the UFC provide insurance? Yes, eventually. But there are other ways for fighters to get insured.
by Applejack McNeil on Aug 3, 2010 11:51 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
which is why i proposed a fighter's association
so many of you guys think plan A should be for fighters to be smart and make wise decisions.
that’s not planning, that’s wishful thinking.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Right now, that SHOULD be Plan A.
My GF and I just had our first kid. Luckily, the tyke is on my insurance as my GF, who is a hair stylist, is still covered by her parents’ policy. If we aren’t married by the time she’s booted off, you better believe we’ll get a quickie JOP union just so she can stay covered.
It’s common sense and it’s a bit demoralizing that you’re selling fighters’ intelligence so short.
Zuffa should provide insurance, yes. Hopefully, within 5 years, that is a reality. But using Stevenson’s situation to frame the argument is only going to serve to rattle our cages when it’s obvious that Joe Daddy was short-sighted.
by Applejack McNeil on Aug 3, 2010 12:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
again
fighters are going to be short sighted.
athletes have been short sighted since hercules. that won’t change.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Yeah but they’re dumb so someone else should do it for them. (paraphrased from Kid Nate)
by ufc4 on Aug 3, 2010 12:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Sorry Nate but that line of thinking I just can’t get on board with. I think it’d be great if the UFC chose to insure these guys but as of now they aren’t so they need to take some responsibility for their own well being.
by ufc4 on Aug 3, 2010 12:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
ok
write a fan post called “Fighters You Need To Step Up and Take Responsibility” that should solve the problem.
or would you rather I wrote that post for you? would that solve the problem?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I don’t think I need to teach these guys common sense, if they can’t figure out on their own that if they FIGHT for a living then health insurance might be a good investment there’s not much I can do for them.
by ufc4 on Aug 3, 2010 12:51 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
so you admit helplessness
then why don’t you shut up while the people who care about the sport try to solve the problem?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Because bitching and moaning about Dana White’s gambling every day isn’t going to fix anything. If you’re so worried about the “dumb” fighters maybe you should do more to help inform them.
by ufc4 on Aug 3, 2010 1:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
What should be do?
Boycott? Picket?
I know! We’ll talk on the Internet about it!
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 3, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
It influences elections
I throw raps that attack like the Japs on Pearl Harbor/MC's be out like bank robbers/Fleeing the scene, to be a sole survivor/DJ the getaway driver/Tried to dip but he dive, I socialize on vocal vibes/On tracks stabbed up with razor sharp knives
All fighters are contactors
And just like my technology contracting, or any independant contractor, my rate of pay I define has to include all my costs. If a contractor failed to include his gas money, his hammers and nails, his health insurance, or his Iphone bills, than he isnt doing the due diligence involved in being self employed. Is the UFC supposed to hire all these fighters as employees? When Dan Henderson wants more money and goes to Strikeforce, does the UFC have to extend COBRA to him? What about fighters who fight in Dream and than Strikeforce, who’s insurance pays for injured fighters outside the ring in training? Come on folks, lets fight for the bottom line to be raised for all fighters, larger purses and larger bonuses, but any contractor needs to cover their own insurances or they prob need a proper manager to assist with running their business.
by Amsterdamage on Aug 3, 2010 11:52 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
when I fight for higher pay
I get shouted down too.
The fans want to jack off to their fantasies of being Dana White and wiping his ass with our money. The last thing fans want is for the fighters to get a fair % of the pie.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Aug 3, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
That’s a lot of hyperbole in one sentence. You know as well as I do that fans aren’t that demonizing. They just don’t care. There’s a big difference between not giving a shit about something and wishing the worst on fighters.
http://www.instrength.com
read the comments when i argue they should get a slightly larger slice of the pie
the vitriol is identical to this post. and from the same people too.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I just don’t see anyone saying they shouldn’t get their fair share if they’ve earned it. I see people saying that a man should be responsible for his own decisions. Becoming a fighter is one of those decisions.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Aug 3, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
do you want the best in the sport?
if so we should make it a red carpet
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I know you don’t see it this way at all, but I don’t think the revenue or the foundation is there yet for the UFC to roll out the red carpet and actively recruit away from the NFL. If you wrote “in 3-5 years”, I’d be on board. Just not there yet. The foundation is nowhere complete enough to jump into competing for athletes on that level.
http://www.instrength.com
how about they use some of the video game money
which they didn’t share with the fighters beyond throwing a few crumbs?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
How about if the video game tanked they could have charged back the fighters and collected some cash out of the fighters pocket? You are right they should get all the reward and take no risk
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
The video game was no risk to ZUFFA
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Aug 3, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you kidding anything that costs money is a risk, any investment. Was it a bigger risk for THQ for certain but still I have had employees try and come up with this bullshit logic before drives me nuts.
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Huh?
What risk was the game to ZUFFA?
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Aug 3, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
zuffa just took a licensing fee
THQ bore all the risk on that deal
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Aug 3, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It still cost them money and was in no way a for sure return. 2010 is getting shit on because Red Dead Redemption killed it and Lost Planet 2
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
so
there’s no money lost for them other than imaginary money they never made.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Aug 3, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Flying fighters for scans voice overs a lot of that came from UFC and they covered costs
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
You think the UFC covered costs?
Nah. That was all THQ.
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yea
The game is really f’d up. It’s insane to me the fighters don’t get any financial reward from it.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
When did it cost them money?
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
I could've sworn..
…Dana said he regularly has seminars/talks with fighters re: life stuff like investing your money, getting insurance, etc. I’m pretty sure the info and resources are out there for them.
Not trying to argue pro or con, but I know there’s another side to this situation.
the UFC has done a few seminars
and that’s great.
Of course there are other sides to this situation. I can only make one case at a time. It’s hard to write an opinion piece if you have to state everyone’s opinion.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Jesus, this isn't JUST about Joe Stevenson
What about the UFC newcomer who makes 10 to show / 5 to win who loses a fight then gets hurt training for his second fight and misses another 6 months?
Are you guys gonna tell me you have no sympathy for him either and that he should be able to afford medical insurance?
again
this isn’t about sympathy. I gave up on assuming BE readers are capable of human sympathy a long time ago. I’m trying to make a brass tacks, appeal to self-interest argument here.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Healthcare...
Man… america is great for some things, and awful for others. You have the right to die for your country at 18 years old, the same country who would even stitch a cut for you for free.
Free Public healthcare is not a perfect system, but it’s better than NO public healthcare. In Canada we care enough to ensure that everyone has coverage, and if you don’t feel it’s adequate enough, you can purchase private coverage just as you can in America.
Anyone with a “suck it up joe, you’re a fighter” attitude is just idiotic. It has nothing to do with the fact that he’s a fighter. He’s a human being, and he’s a taxpayer, so you people and your government should care at least a little about his health, instead of having no value for human life at all. Just because he’s a fighter doesn’t mean he’s a piece of meat.
Chris
We are out of money. You, and every other country with socialized health care, will soon be out of money as well. It’s a simple fact that virtually every single socialized health system is on a path to being broke. It’s no coincidence that the UK is seriously looking at de-centralizing their health system…it is failing and they know it.
We literally have no money. I am okay with people having health care, but we HAVE NO MONEY. I don’t understand how we can take on trillions in health care commitments with no money or solid growth prospects.
Also, paying a fighter $250k is not treating him as a piece of meat. If this article was about a guy making $5/$5 per fight, then it would have more credence…this was a guy who made a decision to not get health insurance (and also the decision to continue to pop out babies), those are HIS choices.
by Bob Loblaw TX on Aug 3, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You’re out of money because you let big banks rip you off and then elect a congress to bailout these banks and other corps that fuck you over, while at the same time funding a $300 billion/month double-war., dismantle unions, ship american and canadian jobs overseas, and then wave a flag celebrating it.
As a percentage of GDP, Canada has more public debt than the USA, what’s your excuse?:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt
Trust me, your health care might be fine now, but it won’t be for long. It’s unsustainable and even the Canadian government knows it. It’s only a matter of time before DRASTIC cuts are made or taxes are heavily increased.
by Bob Loblaw TX on Aug 3, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
stop now please
we’re well off topic here.
thanks
I’ve been a big offender but lets not get into all this shit here.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
money is an imaginary construct to measure wealth
last time i checked we had enormous amounts of what constitutes wealth — plenty of food, clothing, technology, cars, houses, etc etc
the only thing we’re short on is oil.
but the “we’re out of money” thing is a joke. we racked up a lot of debt to a lot of thieves and scam artists but if we let goldman sachs choke on their bullshit derivatives and die a lot of the debt would be gone. same for mortgages etc.
but we’re well off topic here. best to stop.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Eh…off-topic is kind of fun.
I’m guessing you think it was all free-market caused? Had nothing to do with Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, or the FHA? Had nothing to do with the FED keeping interest rates so low that people felt comfortable buying more house than they could ever afford normally?
We are out of money, it just won’t show for quite awhile. Just as someone going through bankruptcy can live a great life for quite awhile, eventually they have to sell the BMW. I’d love to be an optimist when it comes to the future of America, but the COMBINATION of an over-powered government and the sheer greed of the powerful is almost un-stoppable.
by Bob Loblaw TX on Aug 3, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
stop
we can discuss this on FreeRepublic or Daily Kos.
but since I’m the boss here I’ll get the last word — public manipulation of markets is what caused this shit. There is no free market. Entities like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are artificially propped up such that the profits go to private individuals and the losses are paid by the tax payer.
Freddie and Fannie where chartered with the idea of helping make housing more affordable. In the decades since their charter housing costs have shot thru the roof compared to incomes. It’s all a big scam. the government and big business are one and the same and the two parties are just like pro wrestlers playing baby face and heel and all doing what vince mcmahon says.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Aug 3, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
"but since I’m the boss here I’ll get the last word"
Woke up with the swagger this morning? And the pro wrestling statement is so true I loved Slick Willy (second greatest salesman of all time) but don’t forget Glass Steagall
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
yup that was the Dems
both parties are working for the man. have no illusions
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Wizard of Oz man
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
X-Rays are awfully cheap without insurance.
I assume he needs an MRI or something more comprehensive?
Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.
Depending on the body part, an X-Ray in the states will probably run you approximately $150. I can’t speak for the skull, but for chest, and limbs… its probably going to be that or less.
Now if we’re talking MRIs or CTs w/ contrast, then you start getting into 10x that figure, or more.
Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.
Good article Nate
Glad you’re still trying to fight this battle.
I write about basketball players with Ridiculous Upside. I know you'll love it.
by Scott Schroeder on Aug 3, 2010 12:07 PM EDT reply actions
Socialized medicine a horrible idea and is another step on our road to serfdom.
However, Dana is being cheap and dumb here. From strictly a competitive standpoint, he should be providing insurance for the fighters. What decent fighter is going to sign with Strikeforce or Dream if the UFC starts providing health insurance? At 250 fighters at $1,000 a month (cost for fighter and family), that would run $3 million per year. It’s a lot, but in the long run would stave off both competition and future fighter union talk.
Even the foreign guys who get socialized health care I’m sure would love to be able to have health insurance in the USA.
now that's a reasonable contribution
i disagree with lots of it
but at least you get the idea that it’s in the ufc’s own self interest to take care of their fightrers.
thanks for playing.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Bq. Socialized medicine a horrible idea and is another step on our road to serfdom.
Serfs got medical coverage from the nobles that ruled them? The empty rhetoric you use to illustrate your point doesn’t even make sense.
Ricky Hatton came closer to beating Manny Pacquiao than Marquez did to beating Floyd.
-SC
by The Lethal Haze on Aug 3, 2010 2:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
How can anyone here even guess at what healthcare coverage would cost the UFC? All the numbers being thrown around here are made-up garbage.
http://www.instrength.com
I bet there are a lot of small business owners and accountants who see those bills that can probably call your bluff.
Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.
Small being the key word. Having an ever-evolving employee base of what, 250+ fighters with constant injuries would add up quick. It’d be pretty hard to map out for anyone considering no one’s ever insured that many fighters under one plan before. Or anything close to it.
http://www.instrength.com
Not for high risk occupations. They won’t qualify. Look into it, I have. It’s why WWE guys have so much trouble with this stuff.
http://www.instrength.com
As a group, they can get it
Everything in insurance is based on actuarial tables and probabilities, it is just a question of what sort of price.
I would imagine it is comparable to the NFL, NBA or NHL…more than baseball, less than race car drivers.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 3, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
“I would imagine”. See that’s what the problem is. You don’t know. Unionization is the only way to create a group. They can’t unionize. They have to deal with insurance companies individually. It doesn’t work. As I said, WWE guys have been trying to find a way for decades. It’s not working.
http://www.instrength.com
Of course not, no one here has access to the fighter's medical histories, etc that would be needed to actually get a quote
But we can look pretty easily and apply a little common sense to that MMA injuries are probably on a par with NFL football at worse…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 3, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
But
Unionization or some sort of organization is the most straightforward solution, but even that only works if the UFC requires all fighters to carry insurance, whether through that or their home countiry’s insurance or whatever form.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 3, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
If the UFC said “you must carry your own insurance to fight”, it puts the cart before the horse. A lot of guys simply wouldn’t be able to fight. I love the premise, but it wouldn’t work.
http://www.instrength.com
That is very common in businees
My small business does the majority of its work for residential homebuilders. Before we, or any other contractor or supplier can step on a property we have to have general liability insurance on file with the builder. This is cleaning people, everyone, including sole proprietors.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 3, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I own my own business and I employ drivers…most of whom are young men. Drivers get hurt a lot, however their young age means they are less likely to get cancer/heart attacks, things like that.
The cost for an individual is about $300/mo…a family is like $970/mo. I figure that with the UFC’s pool would be higher risk, but with more employees they would probably get a rate comparable to what I pay.
by Bob Loblaw TX on Aug 3, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Wouldn't the occupation...
Affect disability and workers’ compensation rates and not health insurance? Just saying..
Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.
Deductibles for a ton of surgeries, higher cost of insuring based on the fact that they’re in an insanely high risk profession, etc. There are a ton of things to consider that just don’t apply to regular employees.
http://www.instrength.com
First, it’s not about the profession, it’s about the training for the profession. Any injuries sustained in the cage are fully covered by the UFC. (Which is required by most commissions.)
If your point is that we don’t know the exact cost, you are right. However, are you actually arguing that you don’t think the UFC could afford it? Even at the craziest levels (i.e. coal miners), health insurance is rarely over $20k a year.
by Bob Loblaw TX on Aug 3, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m saying that I don’t think anyone here, including yourself (no offense) knows enough about it to accurately gauge whether it’s financially feasible for them to do it.
http://www.instrength.com
Then I guess you and I should all leave this forum and never discuss anything that we don’t have financial reports on.
Why are you here? If we never speculated on anything, the forum basically wouldn’t exist.
by Bob Loblaw TX on Aug 3, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps not
But we can at least know it is somewhere less than the very highest risk professions, so if we have an idea of what it costs them, we at least have a ceiling.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 3, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes
That is why it would really need to be done under a union umbrella (or some sort of org), with the UFC requiring it.
If the UFC changed the fighters status from independent contractor to employee, there overall direct fighter costs would probably double, if not more.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 3, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Right
In addition, if they covered only the fighters, which is really the issue here, it would be closer to $500 a month I would guess.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 3, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
This is pitiful
The guy has to form a business to attempt to get anywhere. Someone should have told him it’s cheaper to die under that system.
A Charitable Fighter's Fund at the least could work.
We know about Dana’s gambling habits, but what about his charitable ones? Dana does give to charity individually and doesn’t publicise it that much. I’d like to see BW investigate this area, and I’ll explain why in a second.
I think Kid Nate possibly mentioned in the past about taking a dollar from every PPV sold, but it doesn’t even have to be that much. 10 cents per PPV would likely do. According to Watch Kalib Run it was estimated UFC did 8 million PPV buys for 2009. This figure will likely be bested for 2010 unless something disastrous happens.
10 cents from each PPV would net $800k for the year. And at $6k a year medical insurance that would cover 133 fighters.
Now, having it as a charitable fund, and knowing Dana donates to charity as well as the UFC is involved in charities, he could be heavily scrutinised for not supporting a charity that would help his own fighters for medical coverage, especially since it wouldn’t be a threat to contract negotiations or disputes like a union would be. It could be played as “Dana supports charities except ones that help his own fighters” and “Charity starts at home” and so on.
And how bad would Dana and the UFC look for not even giving up 10 cents per PPV buy? 10 cents from a $44.99 ppv is 0.2%
And that’s just what the UFC could give. Factor in other promotions, and how the public can donate to this charity (allow the charity to have free space alongside sponsors or something).
good morning bloody elbowers
i love waking up at noon to an article like this because i can be for sure it’s going to spur conversation and discussion
plain and simple
the ufc and all big name mixed martial arts promotions should offer insurance
and the investment would indeed pay off for the promotions in the long run.
though in my opinion dana’s got little love or care for his employees or their well being
who is keizer soze
by Johnathan Willis on Aug 3, 2010 12:23 PM EDT reply actions
Greetings
You don’t think there are a bunch of bean counters who have done exactly that sort of Return on Investment study to see if it benefited the company or not? Of course they have and have decided that it is not going to be a return on their investment.
The bottom line is these guys make what the market will bear. There is no “right” to healthcare, bonuses, etc. They sign a contract and then they must live with it. I was foolish at that age too and too many times made financial decisions (much like Joe Stevenson) that were short sighted. I didn’t expect anybody to bail me out and I lived with the consequences.
Fighters are independent contractors and are responsible for their own taxes, health insurance, etc. They also have the fortune (if they do well) of getting the lavish profits and learning how to protect their money and themselves. They set there own hours of work and essentially have freedom that most of us do not have. There are good and bad sides to being independent. They all make their own choices and the contracts are very clear I’m sure.
As for Dana spending HIS money on gambling… have at it. For you to suggest that he should somehow spend what he’e earned on something other than for his family is ridiculous. Those are his earning and he gets what the market will bear. There is not a finite amount of money that suggests that if Dana is paid millions, that everybody else will suffer. Do better, become more popular and the money will follow. Be a mid tier fighter and you will get what your value is.
by PoindexterII on Aug 3, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm arguing that the UFC
should help see that more fighters are insured for their own benefit.
Am I wrong?
You are appealing to some imaginary bean counters at Zuffa who have it all figured out. The Fertittas didn’t even manage to keep their much larger casino business out of bankruptcy, you really think they’ve invested in world class actuarial scientists to do the cost benefit analysis on this for Zuffa?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
can we please stop acting like a casino going bankrupt in this economy means that the only people that have successfully run an mma organization are incompetent?
i'm just saying
they’re anythign but infallible business geniuses.
these are guys who inherited a very successful biz from their dad and ran it into the ground.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
that is a terrible characterization of what happened.
It’s not in the ground, because it still exists. They didn’t run it anywhere, the economy did it to almost the entire industry. It would be one thing if they went into bankruptcy in 2004 (hi mr. trump) but they didn’t. Ignoring the reason is dumb.
the only reason it came up
was to rebut the assumption that the business wizards at zuffa have looked at all the angles and figured everything out.
there’s a book called candide about the best of all possible worlds, written by a guy named voltaire who lived in a very similar time when people were sure the king of france was making all the right decisions. check it out.
then check out louis the xvi and robespierre. everyone fucks up all the time. blind trust in authority leads to bigger fuck ups.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Ok. keep making terrible arguments when you have good ones instead.
Keep letting people ignore the real issue and get distracted by things terrible arguments that you throw in for no reason.
he has good points inside him, i don’t agree with all of them, but the comments section would be 10000% percent better if he would drop some of the nonsense points that bring nothing to the conversation. A casino going bankrupt in this economy does not tell anyone anything.
I don’t know, man. Agreeing, disagreeing or debating with someone is kind of fun on here. But trying to get someone to write only what you want them to write, yeah, good luck with that.
by David_ on Aug 3, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
From a business perspective, bankruptcy is a tool. It doesn’t mean that you’ve done things wrong or have no money. So many rich successful people use it as a shelter or a way to manipulate the market. Yes, I am in fact saying that because of the talent pool, they can get away with making fighters pay for their own insurance and that they have figured out a cost benefit analysis that shows it doesn’t help them with mid and low tiered fighters. Who knows what’s been worked out for the upper tiered fighters, but the reality is that there are lots of Joe Stevensens in the world.
Sad but true. The free market allows works this way.
even though these fighters make way more money than us even after expenses and taxes, the ufc needs to do the right thing and provide insurance, they are an employer and if they want their employees to show up to work healthy, it is the smart thing to do, write it into the contract verbiage, it’s not like it will be a huge dent in the pockets of the ufc, one good thing i will say about the ufc, i have heard them foot the hospital bill for certain fighters
How many fighters make more after taxes and expenses?
If you think all in the UFC do, I believe you to be mistaken.
actually i agree with u, some probably net like 40k after everything and if u r on the undercard u probably fight parttime and work a day job, well hopefully the day job gets them insurance
by hot mma chick on Aug 3, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
also some fighters may be on a parents insurance, at what age can you not get insurance through a parent?
by hot mma chick on Aug 3, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
As long as you are a dependent or have a disability
As far as I know
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
reside at same address
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
well even though i dont live my parents, my car insurance and dmv thinks i do, lol
let’s just say where my mom lives is alot safer place to drive than where im living now
by hot mma chick on Aug 3, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
That is different than health insurance
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
i know but i was implying, you can make your address whatever you want to help you get benefits, just an idea for fighters that could list their parents address as home
by hot mma chick on Aug 3, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
The problem with that is good adjusters find ways to deny claims. Might work for Matt Riddle though
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
jon jones, yes, couture, no, lol
getting old sucks :(
by hot mma chick on Aug 3, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Couture has ex wives and kids I don’t want to know what that mans monthly expenses for insurance must be
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
The new bill should allow you to stay on your parents plan until you are 26.
I believe it goes into effect this September, or allows you to begin applying for the coverage or something like that. That’s my understanding of it.
It’s way easier if you’re a full time student.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Aug 3, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I work in insurance and I I would hate to see the going rate a large company like Zuffa would would have to pay to have a full health plan and coverage on its fighters. It would cost them out the ass to have a plan cover a fighters traning and all aspects outside the octagon. I know Zuffa already has a plan for all incage injurys though and most shows don’t even cover that.
As for oe Daddy he should of jumped all over that $500 a month coverage becasue that was one hell of a steal. I don’t know what compnay was offering that policy but he should of never of passed that up. Hear in New York in westchester county someone who had a previous addiction problem drug/Alchool or works on any kind of hazardous Job and wants to pay for there own health insurance. They will be lucky to get full coverage with certain deductibles for a average of $1200 to $1500 a month
That's what I said, I think he was misquoted
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Great Job Kid Nate!
It’s great to see writers like Kid Nate writing about the REAL issues in MMA. You hit the nail on the head in this article. MMA is in dire need of a fighters association. The MMAFA will be great for providing health insurance, cleaning up the sport, and generating income for fighters.
I don’t want to wade through all those comments so I’ll make a couple of points here:
1) Forget Joe Stevenson. The typical UFC fighter fights twice and takes home $40,000. With endorsements you are talking $70,000-100,0000 (Or less) for probably 2/3 of all the fighters. After training and agent/manager fees, you are talking $40,000-$60,000 before taxes. $6,000 or more a year in insurance is going to be prohibitive to these guys. Especially when you are facing maybe 3 or 4 years MAX in the UFC at that income level. So a big chunk of that better be going into savings.
2) If I could pay for the insurance of my employees, I can’t see why we couldn’t expect Zuffa to carry that load. The owners walked away with $75 million last year. Even at $10,000 for every fighter that walked in the cage last year, that’s means 5% less in profits.
3) I know the Fertittas and Dana put their own money in it and don’t owe anybody, So by going $30 million or $40 million in the hole they own the sport? They have a perpetual license to walk away with $100 million in profits and everyone should be thankful? Here’s my take – they made a big investment, but so did the fighters. Fighters who stuck with making less money (“Who wants to be a fucking fighter”) to help a reality show take off and get the UFC where it is. if we are going to hand over mma to the UFC I would think we fans would want and expect all this money we are sending them to really impact the fighters.
by John Nash on Aug 3, 2010 12:37 PM EDT reply actions 9 recs
i would consider that 5 percent less profits to be
an investment
and make no mistake about it
that investment would pay off
who is keizer soze
by Johnathan Willis on Aug 3, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
0.2% of PPV buys for 2009
Would have insured 133 fighters at the $500 a month quoted in the article. Just by taking 10 cents per PPV buy.
And as usual, that's a rec from me.
How’s your post on fighter income coming along? Have you still been working on it?
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Haven’t even really started. i am suddenly swamped and shouldn’t even be commentating on here. But that damn Kid Nate.
Hopefully I get a break in the coming weeks and can set up some sit down time with my sources.
Haha, alright, good luck.
I said it elsewhere, but if you need a bit of guidance or clarification on anything, don’t hesitate to ask. I can’t be an official source or anything like that, but I’m more than happy to help as much as I can.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Haha, sorry man,
as much info as I drop, I’m not a bigwig or anything like that. I have clients and bosses to answer to. I’ve only been interviewed once and I was under deep scrutiny during that time by superiors. Even though this is my personal account, I still have to keep a low profile (pun!).
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Aug 3, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
/slow clap
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Aug 3, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I see what you are saying here but the issue is really that these guys are independant contractors and need to learn to work better in that system (which is basically what Joe Stevenson stated himself).
1). $40,000 to $60,000 still puts them at or over the mean family income in the US and we all have to pay taxes. $500 a month for health insurance isn’t that bad (it’s about what my job pays for mine and I have shitty health insurance). If these guys were employees instead of independant contractors then they wouldn’t be making the same money from the UFC because of the benefits taken out. No company just eats that cost like that. Yea it’s not always easy but then things are tough all around(I have health insurance and still have to pay thousands of dollars worth of health care bills out of my own pocket due to injury).
2). Irrelevant. You don’t pay health insurance on independant contractors and I don’t see Zuffa changing the entire system to a straight employment system any time soon. If they did then they aren’t going to just eat that cost, the fighters will just get paid less money. This isn’t a Zuffa issue this is how it works everywhere for pretty much everyone.
3). Again that is just how things work. Would be nice if it was different but we live in a capitalist society. Fighters should get paid more (and payouts have been going up pretty consistantly over the years) but so should teachers and firemen too, it sucks for everyone who isn’t a millionaire and even some of the millionaires don’t have it as good as people seem to think.
People like to go with the NFL example and perhaps a fighter’s organization of some sort is the way to go, it’s a lot better than just hoping that multi-millionaires and billion dollar companies just start becoming more generous out of the blue. In the mean time fighters really need to get on top of this whole independant contractor situation and learn how to work within that system.
Fuck you who me
You’re a thorn in my side with your literate, well thought out rebuttals. You are the Professor Moriarty to my…. Inspector Clouseau?
My basic argument is that for what the fighters supply they are receiving way too little of the spoils. The difference between being a fighter or being a fireman or a teacher (and teachers really get screwed all because it used to be one of the few available jobs for women) is that people are paying to see you. They are the commodity, much like when we pay to see the Rolling Stones or U2 we can be sure they are getting a hefty cut of the profits. But that doesn’t seem to be the case with the fight game.
And i have to admit, the only reason I am passionate about this is because it’s personal to me. Not because I know a handful of people in the fight game (but less than most people on this site) but because I too work in the entertainment business. And i can’t help but project myself on them and think that is a “fucked up” system. I admit, for most fans, it’s probably hard to feel sorry for them. Everybody hates their pay and works for an asshole, but coming from the perspective of a “talent” based profession, they seem to really be getting the short end of the stick.
I’m also something of an iconoclast, so when I see the fanboys putting Dana on a pedestal as the guy who made the sport, or even worse, celebrating the owners’ $75 million a year profits over a fighter trying to get a better deal, my asshole switch goes to the on position. That Ayn Rand, laissez faire, free-market anarchism mentality drives me nuts.
I largely agree with you but...
The difference between being a fighter or being a fireman or a teacher (and teachers really get screwed all because it used to be one of the few available jobs for women) is that people are paying to see you.
Outside of a few names, this really hasn’t been proven to be the case…
Fedor vs Arlovski and Fedor vs Sylvia failed to sell without the UFC branding.
People are paying for the UFC brand as much or if not more than they pay for the fighters.
Yes fans will pay more attention to certain fighters, but people don’t seem to care that much if said fighter is not fighting in the UFC and part of a pre packaged UFC event.
I
Truck, my good man, you’ve pointed out the source of all my rants on the UFC. It is not by accident that people pay to see the UFC. They have intentionally gone out of there way to make sure that they are the star. That Dana White, the production, the logo, and all everything but the fighters is why you are tuning. They are not really a $1 billion plus company. They are estimated to be worth that much because they have managed to keep their profit levels astronomical. And how do they do that? By making sure fighter pay is repressed. That is almost their number one business objective.
I don’t hold a grudge against. It’s smart. But I am shocked that many of the fans, especially the more knowledgeable ones on here, are so willfully blind to the discrepancy in pay. That many have seemingly given in to a corporation’s speil that whatever they do is best for the sport. That fans should zealously only care about what happens in the Octagon. It reminds me of kids boasting that if it isn’t a Marvel Comics it sucks. The only people this mentality hurts is the fighters and us fans.
I’ll say this is my reply to who me as well. Hopefully he doesn’t see it so he won’t get a chance to pick it apart again.
by John Nash on Aug 3, 2010 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I always want everything good to happen every time...
It is too bad it can’t happen that way. I love that the UFC is spending huge $$ to grow the sport and the work they have done has been huge. They have a lot of things to consider and a lot of things to pay for.
Fighter pay has increased and they have managed to increase fighter pay without going bakrupt, which is more than can be said about the competition. Hopefully fighter pay increase a little year by year and contract by contract, but I don’t really see anything else happening any time soon.
If the UFC is successful in some more of their expansion plans there will be no excuses.
Additionally...
Basing the product on the letter (UFC) is a lot more secure than basing it on fighter names. Otherwise injuries, retirements and contract disputes could decimate the business. This lack of security would make them unable to expand the way they are.
there are a lot of benefits from this model and down the line if / when the UFC grows to what it can become there will be a lot of people made wealthy.
I understand this point of view
but from my perspective that time could be now. The owners of Zuffa are not reinvesting their profits to expand the sport. No, instead they are taking loans out for that, so they can guarantee themselves a dividend payment ever year. They have paid themselves over $300 million already. 10 times what they put into it. So we are to ask the current fighters to subsidize expansion? To build for a future generation while the current owners walk away with millions? To hope that their pay goes up slowly while massive profits are made for a few?
Zuffa has done a great job of extending the sport, but they have also a great job at engineering the market. Looking at how things have worked out so far, fighters can expect to make a little more every year while the owners make a lot more every year. I don’t know anyone in any field of the entertainment industry who would want to see that kind of dynamic continue, if it was their profession they were talking about.
Anyways, that’s my rant.
You’re a thorn in my side with your literate, well thought out rebuttals. You are the Professor Moriarty to my…. Inspector Clouseau?
I prefer Snidely Whiplash to your Dudley Do-Right :D
I work for the government so you are paying for my services whether you chose to or not. Heck I am paying for my own services when I pay taxes. I subsidize my own income, why won’t someone post about how unfair things are for me? Furthermore in my line of work I deal with the really bad on a daily basis (occupational safety regulation). I don’t disagree with the ideas behond your post just the practicality of this whole arguement. Zuffa isn’t going to pay health insurance and it doesn’t matter what we think, raging against the macine is great and all but when you get down to brass tacks the first step is making sure these guys learn to survive in the current system. Then you can worry about changing it for them to get more of their fair share.
It’s not just the money that is the problem here though, NFL players and NBA players make huge money but the vast majority of them are broke soon after their careers are over and many of them can’t keep up with medical cost either. What is needed is education and oversight (and perhaps in the near future better representation for these guys). I think for the majority MMA fighters are more intelligent than their ball sports comparisons but it’s still a sport that involves guys willingly getting punched in the head. Seminars should be manditory and repeated regularly and whether the UFC wants to foot the bill or not they can jump in there and take some of the responsibility for making sure better choices are made by fighters. And that is just a start. Hoping the UFC decides to start giving away free money for health care is just a dreaming instead of a real world solution. Capitalism just doesn’t work that way very often.
i'm all for educating fighters
but really think health insurance is easier and more cost effective
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Health care is great, I think everyone should have it and I think that the people I work for should provide a much better plan for me too (I am looking at thousands in medical bills I can’t pay due to injury right now and I have what is supposed to be good health insurance). I also think we all deserve free money, free housing and a life of leisure too but that’s not the real world. Zuffa doesn’t have to pay fighter insurance or any other employee benefits at all because these people aren’t employees.
What my main real world concern is that the fighters get the care that they need and for that to happen it will come from education and oversight and perhaps better representation and not from hoping that Zuffa starts giving out free money for health insurance to people who aren’t employees of the company. Yes it would be great if the system was different and Zuffa had to pay for insurance but it isn’t and they don’t, meanwhile guys need to be covered right now in the real world under the system that currently exist. If you can’t survive in the system today then you won’t be around to try and change it to something better tomorrow.
Of course everything any of us write here is all just opinion anyway, I just hope there are fighters paying attention and working to protect themselves and get what they need however they have to do it.
yeah the real world
has always entailed a handful of people taking the majority of the profits to squander on luxury and vice rather than investing back in the community.
no.
that’s only the real world in decadent societies on their way down and out.
future minded societies plow most of the profits back into the businesses. Henry Ford made sure to pay his workers way over the industry standard so they could afford his cars. it made him very very rich.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Henry Ford was also vehemently against labor unions and in 1941 almost broke up the company in order to stop it unionizing. In 1945 the company was on the verge of bankruptcy and was saved by him being pushed out of the company and being replaced by his grandson. He also admired Adolf Hitler but that is beside the point.
I should also point out that I work for OSHA, I’m about as far from a conservative as you can get and I see things from companies that make White look like Mother Teresa on a weekly basis. It’s a big bad world out there full of a lot of bad people but what I see also has made me much more of a realist. Ranting about the world’s issues and wealth inequality is great and all (and I completely agree) but we live in the real world and have to survive in it as it is now if we ever hope to one day change it.
well the fighters are surviving sort of
but “things are as good as they are going to get” doesn’t make for much of a blog post now does it
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
No you should keep screaming to the mountain tops because that helps get attention for this issue but down here in the comments section we are just discussing the situation not pushing an agenda. I’m not a writer or even a blogger I’m just a guy who likes reading the site and chatting with other fans. The writers here have a higher standard and a higher duty to the sport.
Inflammatory rhetoric in articles also generates the best discussions too but that’s a bit selfish on my part :D
"For UFC Level Fighters"
I just want to point out that most “UFC level fighters” are compensated sufficiently to purchase insurance on their own. Being a fighter is like running a business, and part of the cost is taking care of the product, which includes insurance. Mid- to high level UFC fighters need an accountant to tell them what they can spend, on what, etc., because a good portion of their money is not consistent.
For whatever reason, this country has decided that whoever employs you must provide insurance as well. This is a ridiculous notion instituted by government intervention in wages and subsequent preferential tax treatment of benefits such as health insurance. Therefore, I don’t support demonizing the UFC for a business decision to not provide insurance.
As stated by a number of posters, the UFC contracts with its fighters as independent contractors. I would imagine they have a multitude of reasons for employing this arrangement as opposed to a typical employer/employee arrangement. Providing health insurance may be an issue with this; I haven’t looked at the law on this issue.
I think the main point is that, for me personally, I’d rather get paid more and take care of my own insurance rather than having it through an employer. Thus, I’d prefer the UFC’s current structure. In that way, I can decide what level of health insurance I need. BTW, as a fighter who trains and faces a significant likelihood of injury requiring a doctor’s visit, I would get a plan with a minimal deductible and pay higher premiums.
Basically, all you are arguing for is an increase in fighter compensation beyond that for which they have currently contracted. Otherwise, all you would request is that the UFC require all its fighters to carry a certain level of health insurance. That request alone would sufficiently protect their investment.
you are categorically wrong
MOST UFC fighters make less than $10,000 per fight gross and only fight 2 or 3 ufc fights in their careers.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Use your words
Perhaps it is too much to ask for you to apply a term you used in later conversation. “Health insurance for UFC level fighters — and I’m not even talking about guys who go 0-2 or 1-3 and get cut — like Joe Stevenson.” Guys like Joe Stephenson, Chris Leben, etc., gross far more than $10K per fight.
It figures. I make a bunch of salient points and you decide to focus on what you consider a “categorical” error, when in fact it was merely me using the term you defined.
I assume you have no retort to the statement that you are basically arguing for an increase in fighter compensation, which is a completely different argument than the one you are making.
i am for both
a dramatic increase in fighter pay
AND
an organized health insurance provision for them be it via the ufc or a fighter’s association
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Fair enough
I don’t mean to come off as a UFC apologist. With regard to the UFC paying for health insurance, that argument is nothing more than seeking a compensation increase for fighters, which is fine, but not when the argument is that they are somehow owed it b/c DW gambles.
You seem to be arguing that as a business proposition, it makes sense to contractually obligate yourself to provide health insurance to hundreds of fighters because of the benefits health insurance would bring. Color me skeptical of that claim. Nothing I have read, either in your post or in the comments section, would lead me to believe that it is good, profitable business decision.
As for increased pay, I agree that to draw more elite level athletes to the sport, which is what I would like to see, compensation needs to be increased. There is a legitimate argument for unionization, even from market-centric people like myself, that because the UFC operates as a de facto monopoly with regard to MMA, unionization is necessary to combat the disparity in bargaining power.
However, the legitimate prospects of a union forming are slim as any union would require the name fighters, who are well compensated, to put their necks on the line for the rest of the fighters.
i didn't say enter a contractual obligation
in fact the easiest thing is to help a fighter’s association — NOT a union — to form that would insure the fighters if they paid into it.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Not even close to being true.
UFC 114: 22 fighters and 4 made less than 10k.
UFC 116: 22 fighters and 4 made less than 10k.
TUF 11 finale: 20 fighters and 7 made less than 10k.
Most UFC fighters make over 10k per fight. On the 2 PPVs a just mentioned, over hallf of the fighters on each card made over 20k for their fight.
Thanks
Thanks for the statistical support. Most “UFC level fighters” as defined by Kid Nate make more than enough money to purchase their own health insurance.
Long Story Short (Bananamanstyle)
I’m not even going to mention that fighters in Canada, Japan, Holland, England and Germany don’t even have to sweat this issue, putting American fighters and promoters at a costly competitive disadvantage.
Very simply, its America’s fault. Dana’s the scapegoat because our capitalistic sham of a system doesnt allow for free healthcare.
Fan of Tiger 'Makin It Rain' Woods
wtf $500 a month isn't that much??
Considering his profession, that doesn’t sound unreasonable. If he can drop 17K on a training camp, he should be able to spend 6K a year to make sure he gets coverage
what im wondering is; is that 6K top of the line? or is it the bottom barrell insurance
Fan of Tiger 'Makin It Rain' Woods
by B-A-N-A-N-A-S on Aug 3, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
not sure
But $500 is the cost of a car lease for a decent car, which I’m sure he’s happy to spend his money on, I just don’t see how he can complain about that cost. that’s like a fisherman bitching about having to buy fishing equipment – it’s just part of what’s needed to do the job. $500 bucks?? I thought the premiums would be several thousand or something completely unrealistic, but that sounds pretty fair for someone who’s likely to be taking full advantage of the coverage
I find this whole post and many of the comments to be offensive
Not in a ninny, take offense sort of way, but in an insulting sort of way. If I were a professional fighter, I’d be insulted that people thought so little of me that they felt it was their duty to dictate the terms of my life to me since, in the words of Kid Nate, “we should assume that fighters will be idiots.”
I’d want to be treated with a modicum of respect as a fully-functioning adult member of the community, not like a helpless, retarded child who can’t make intelligent decisions.
Your parents must be siblings.
by IKilled007 on Aug 3, 2010 12:53 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
According to Dana it would be so expensive to insure every fighter on the UFC roster that the UFC would fold.
“Go out and say we own the Ultimate Fighting Championship,” said White. “We like to get some health insurance for our fighters. You can’t do it. It would cost so much money it would put you out of business.”
I have been under a false impression for quite some time
I used to think that the UFC paid for their fighter’s medical cost, like it was in-house health insurance. I remember reading about it after the Corey Hill incident. Recently though my eyes have been opened. Leading up to the UFC on Versus 2 card, a fighter that I am very close with and who happens to be deep in debt(before you get on your soapbox, it’s not due to irresponsible spending on his part) was talking about how at random he was selected to get an MRI done, by the CSAC. This was met with great displeasure, as it would be close to an extra grand out of his pocket. I was curious as to what the big deal was, because “Doesn’t the UFC cover your medical expenses?” “HA! No, they just take it out of your purse after the fight”. This got me thinking, “Wait, if they don’t even cover the cost of getting your medicals done to fight for them, what else don’t they cover that I thought they did?” Apparently, quite a lot.
There are too many comments for me to go through and see if somebody else brought it up yet, so if it was, please let me know and I am sorry. This is something that I think is going to hold the UFC back from being “mainstream” like basketball or football like Dana wants it to be. This is currently a huge issue in the NFL at the moment, taking care of their players. Well, it’s an issue regarding the retired players and concussions. Because all current players are on a comprehensive health insurance plan. Plain and simple. Same with basketball. And baseball. Of course, has the treatment of the players been a big issue in the past with all of these sports? You bet your ass. If Dana wants the UFC to be bigger than the NFL, he needs to start looking at where they went wrong in terms of going mainstream and try to avoid the same mistakes. Fuck people’s perceptions of violence and whether they like the sport, when people find out that what appears to be the most violent sport out there in the “mainstream” isn’t even covering it’s fighters health coverage, the “mainstream” is going to flip it’s shit and bite the UFC in the ass. I give it no more than a week before Bob Reilly and Co. have found this and hopped all over it to use as ammo for the next round of keeping MMA illegal.
by CaliforniaCreamPuff on Aug 3, 2010 12:53 PM EDT reply actions 9 recs
Very interesting post. Rec'd
I agree that the fighters need healthcare (FWIW I think every American should have at least some medical coverage, but that is irrelevant) and I would like to see it happen. NFL is an interesting and valid comparison, but I have a question…
For a league as young as the UFC, that Kid Nate has stated before is one major public fiasco away from dying can they legitimately afford to take a huge dip in their profits to be like the NFL? Would it be wise from a business perspective? There are lots of great ideas pulling in many directions.
The UFC has only been profitable for a handful of years. How was medical insurance / salaries for NFL players 17 years in? There are lots of things to consider and it is a lot easier to arm chair quarterback than it is to make the final call.
You are absolutely correct
It is much easier to arm chair quarterback on the internet, especially when you can do so without having all the data staring you in the face.
You bring up an excellent point about dipping into their profits, especially with the fact that they do have loans out right now in order to expand the sport. I hadn’t thought about that, and it is a salient reason against providing full health coverage for the fighters, at least for the time being.
by CaliforniaCreamPuff on Aug 3, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah,
I understand why people would be upset about Dana dropping thousands at a casino, but to an extent he has earned that right. Hopefully all these other things will sort themselves out in the long run and fighters will be properly looked after. For that to happen though, the UFC is going to need a few more years of substantial growth and huge income.
Maybe the money they are spending to develop and international market helps this.
*Finger Crossed
Kid Nate... Spot on!
Look insuring 4-500 people that are involved in the UFC or considered employees. Even if $20,000 is spent per employee they aren’t spending but 10 million on insurance for all those who are employed by the UFC. Is that too much to ask? What Dana has done for the sport is amazing in his 10+ years but thinking about the future, the only way to help progress the UFC as an organization and helping the sport grow is insuring its employees. Now is aobut the time to start looking after its fighters. The sport is only growing. There are more shows per year now. There for more money. Yes that means more salaries paid, but still the UFC makes more than enough to pay a SMALL sum to pay for its fighters to be insured. Dana can still go gambling and probably at the same excessive expense. So is it really too much to ask Zuffa, the UFC, or whoever to help these fighters stay healhty for the most part? 10 million dollars is a small sum when it comes to providing the best athletes, usually being healthy.
This is a story about Joe Stevenson being irresponsible.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 3, 2010 1:11 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Irresponsible?
Let’s bail him out
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
regardless, if u spill blood for the profit of the ufc they need to take care of u
by hot mma chick on Aug 3, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that's why they pay you
I’m all for a fighter’s union, and you all know this, but
1) Not Zuffa’s responsibility to make it happen and
2) We’re a solid decade under BEST CASE scenarios to competing with the NFL for talent.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 3, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
they pay what they can get away with, these are professional athletes, they are all pretty much guaranteed surgery in their future, they should be overpaying these fighters to make sure their lives are as comfortable as can be and we can see the best possible fights because thay are all mentally in good places
by hot mma chick on Aug 3, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with your first point
but they are actively crushing anything that even looks like fighters organizing for… well… anything. Even training to compete within their own fucking organization. Dana’s constant “This is not a team sport!” babble combined with the near expulsion of everybody from AKA (including hot prospect and now top 5 HW Cain Velasquez) over Fitch trying to sign over 10 years of image rights (likely the rest of his competitive career) rather than lifetime… yeah. You’re understating the issue pretty majorly.
And I know the standard reply is that it’s in Zuffa’s business interests to prevent a union. Fucking duh. Doesn’t change the fact that there’s a massive discrepancy in power preventing any sort of anything and it’s highly unlikely to change until Zuffa collapses and another promoter picks of the shattered pieces of American MMA.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Aug 3, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
THis is like
The UFC gives you everything you need to get health insurance, but theyre still bad guys cus they dont.
Its like the UFC said, “Heres some bread, ham, cheese, and mayo.”
And all the fan boys come out and say, “But God dammit wheres the ham sandwhiches?!”
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
by troy145 on Aug 3, 2010 1:14 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Fuck the sandwich I want money for booze
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Good stuff.
I think the UFC should provide insurance, but I have ZERO sympathy for Joe Stephenson. Stop having babies, start paying for health insurance.
by Bob Loblaw TX on Aug 3, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
joe daddy is the ODB of the fight game, lol
by hot mma chick on Aug 3, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
This is ridiculous
Getting health insurance from a job is fucking STANDARD. You act like it’s some ridiculous demand being made.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
Exactly, the whole point of being a independent contractor is that you are not a employee of the company you are an separate company providing a service. Independent contractors make more money (much more money) but don’t receive any employee benefits at all. I think a big problem here is that a lot of people (fighters included) don’t really understand this system.
Spoken like a loyal Zuffa shill
Please, this technique is old and outdated, your not fooling anyone
I think the solution is to do what the NFL and MLB do for rookies
The UFC should, at their own expense, require mandatory classes for any fighters coming into their promotion — classes on financial planning, balancing check books, the perils of credit, money management, insurance, investing, family planning, etc. This wouldn’t cost the UFC a whole lot and it could really cut down on the poor financial choices a lot of young kids just coming into money make.
Other pro sports have financial orientation classes like this for rookies.
Your parents must be siblings.
And it works wonders in those leagues. You won’t ever hear a story of a NFL or NBA player being bankrupt, broke, or on drugs.
Oh…wait
by Bob Loblaw TX on Aug 3, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude
Come on, there’s no perfect mousetrap. It cuts down on the financial mistakes.
Your parents must be siblings.
Is that true?
A recent SI article said that 60% of NBA retirees are bankrupt within 5 years. Maybe it was 80% before, but I doubt it.
Stupid is as stupid does.
by Bob Loblaw TX on Aug 3, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Another thing
The fighters are all grown men. You people dont know how to live their lives better than they do, and neither do I. They all agreed voluntarily to their compensation and fight anyways. No one is being coerced into anything. No ones a bad guy, everyones acting out of their own free will.
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
coerced no, but if the biggest promotion wants to pay u peanuts, what are you going to say, “no thanks, ill go back and fight in Shark Fights for a bucket of hot wings and a 6 pack”
fighters dont have too many options
by hot mma chick on Aug 3, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Fighters don't have to be fighters.
This isn’t a full time job for most of them anyways. I wonder how long Carwin was under his employer’s insurance. I bet Lytle is still covered by IFD insurance. Look, if Zuffa was really treating fighters that badly, and paying them so poorly, why do fighters all want to fight with them? The market has a way of correcting those types of imbalances, and as we have seen, overcompensation kills promotions – and an absence of promotions is even worse for a fighter’s career than lesser paying promotions. The problem here is that everyone thinks they know how entirely more than they do. Me? I trust the fighters’ judgement to accept a payment judged affordable by Zuffa. Key words? I trust the fighters’ judgement.
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
by troy145 on Aug 3, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
the options are limited
and these fighters shed blood and tears break bones and in the end offer up broken bodies and souls for a minimal amount of money. the sports has grown expotentially over the past few years and is still growing. these men are martyrs for the sport we all love. it’s their choice to do these things and they climb up on that cross and embrace their martyrdom of their own free will but we and their bosses should be grateful for the sacrifice they make.
who is keizer soze
by Johnathan Willis on Aug 3, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Whos not grateful?
I’ve been a sport of this fan for a long, long time. Long enough to wonder how much worse Pride fighters had it, especially if wrapped into criminal undertakings where voluntarism takes a back seat. These guys have it rough, but they also have it good. In short, they do what they do because they love it; and companies like Zuffa accommodate that love and turn it into something they can both profit from.
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
fighters don’t have to be fighters
this quote while one hundred percent true seems to be one made from anything but gratitude.
imagine if the fighters you love didn’t become fighters. then where would this sport be. i’m not questioning your love for the sport………..simply wondering where the gratitude is in that statement for the things they’ve done
who is keizer soze
by Johnathan Willis on Aug 3, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Im grateful for teachers and cops too
But guess what? They don’t have to do it. We have a volunteer army, and I love them and I set aside part of my paycheck for charities that support them but guess what? They dont have to do it.
Its hard for me to feel bad for a guy who makes at least 6 times the average median household income in this country and squandered it.
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
by troy145 on Aug 3, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hell, damn near impossible for me.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 3, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
you thing joe daddy makes six time the average median?
who is keizer soze
by Johnathan Willis on Aug 3, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
think not thing
spelling>me
who is keizer soze
by Johnathan Willis on Aug 3, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I know that in a one year period between 2/21/09 and 2/21/10
Joe was in 3 FOTNs. Those bonuses are usually around what? 15k? That alone nearly matches the $50k median household income. I know he also made 95k at TUF Finale (including win bonus). Id be shocked if he didn’t make in that years time.
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
What?
He won FOTN once
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 3, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Teachers, Cops and the Army
all get health insurance.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
makes up for the sub-par pay amirite?
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
No
but many MMA fighters make less than those guys. Again, it’s a pretty typical and standard benefit to receive.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
again
Those who make less tend to have second jobs (as do many teachers and soldiers)
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
You’re just inventing vague generalities to support your assertion.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
At this point its clear to me that you dont know what your talking about
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
In other words
“no I can’t support my assertion, so I’ll play dumb”
Gotcha.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
dude i dont have the interest to play these games with you.
Youre comparing full time, low wage compensation with healthcare benefits to part-time, higher wage compensation without healthcare benefits, and yes, that is the norm.
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
No it isn't
now would you like to show evidence that it is, or will you continue to just invent “facts” to support your “argument”?
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
Show evidence that it isnt!
Put your money where your fucking mouth is. We have some of the most successful fighters in the entire promotion working jobs on the side. Whether you work as a computer tech or a cop or something or you get paid by your gym as an instructor or even a co-owner, most of these guys have some other sort of income. Thats common sense. Just like I don’t need to make an excel spreadsheet explaining to you that most fighters have sponsors, I dont need to explain to you that most fighters have secondary income.
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
LOL
You are making the positive claim, the onus on providing evidence is on you. Argumentation 101.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
There is no onus on anyone
To turn the person he is debating from being a willfully ignorant person to a reasonable participant. Which is what you are asking me to do.
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
Another sidestep
I’m trying to get you to actually prove a claim I dispute. You refuse because you can’t.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
Fraudian slip
“We”, as in you and the UFC.
That explains it all
A corporate propagadist
They are also paid substantially less for a full time job
Fighting is a part time job for many fighters, and the ones who do it full time receive more compensation than most teachers/cops/soldiers/
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
They are also paid substantially less for a full time job
Like hell.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
You mean you don't want to support your made up "facts"?
color me unsurprised.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
How much did Leben make in two weeks?
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
You want to use that
as an example of the norm?
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
Again
nonsense assertion is nonsense.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
How long has Chuck been making seven figure fights? How much did Ken get for fighting Tito twice?
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
For every example you give like that
I can give you 3 that show the opposite end. I actually think we should use the WEC as a better case study for why heath benefits are necessary.
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Maybe I’m so used to pay being a direct reflection of performance.
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
But that's not how ZUFFA works
Otherwise Anderson Silva would make more than Brock. Aldo would be making TONS more than he is.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
Job performance is title belts
Its entertainment delivered. Few would make the argument that as of late Anderson has been more entertaining (delivered a higher rate of return on investment) than Brock.
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
What? Performance = revenue and pay should reflect that. How many people know Brock or Chuck? How many know Jose Aldo? Not say he isnnt a great fighter (he is) but he is not yet of much value
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
So performance in a sport isn’t in the winning and the losing, but in the entertainment? Fine, and those guys get compensated financially.
Only, it behooves the UFC to make sure the next gen of champions, the guys they don’t know yet, have health insurance.
Again, it’s not like it’s some ridiculous desire. It’s standard for most business.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
Pro Sports are entertainment businesses
Thats it. They are in business because they generate revenue from entertaining people. Another one of those things that shouldn’t have to be explained to you because its just common knowledge/sense. You know the Sun is not a planet, right?
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
then why is the ufc compensating fighters
at roughly half the rate of the entertainment industry norm?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
To be fair...
UFC has far less than half of the following of pretty much every main stream sport and some fringe sports.
I am all for fighter pay increasing, but I don’t understand how all these other sports are relevant in situations like this.
their profit margin is comparable to anyone in entertainment
or sports
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
zuffa exploits that love
then when the fighters who laid down their well being and health are used up
they discard them
a good portion of fighters make less than me or you
who is keizer soze
by Johnathan Willis on Aug 3, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Whos exploited?
People voluntarily tune in to UFC programming.
Fighters voluntarily choose to fight for Zuffa on prearranged conditions.
Zuffa voluntarily employs the fighters for compensation they set and fighter agree to.
Wheres the exploitation? If its so down n’ dirty than I think you bare a moral responsibility to quit financing the UFC machine.
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
And they should be paid that much less. I’m pretty fucking good at my job and make more than most in my position. Mediocrity does not deserve compensation
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 3, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not about blame, it's about doing what's best...
Nate makes a good point in the post and the comments (repeatedly) that this is not about blaming Joe Stevenson or the UFC or capitalism. It is about doing what is best for the sport and the fighters. To do what’s best, we need to focus on solutions.
Possible solutions mentioned in the post and in the comments include:
- The UFC could contribute to coverage for its fighters/independent contractors. This would not have to be 100% coverage, but would help ensure that coverage is available to all fighters, and that coverage is more affordable.
- Fighters or fight camps could join together in order to form a professional association to ensure access to coverage at group rates. This is what self-employed individuals in many other industries do, and the only difference is that premiums would be higher for fighters.
- One dollar from each pay per view could be set aside to fund discounted health insurance for fighters and their families. The UFC could fund this, or they could raise the price a dollar.
I’m sure there are many other potential solutions, but at least this is a start to bringing some much needed attention to this issue.
But You Are Blaming
While the topic is a very good one and I think that this article and others are greatly needed to further the discussion, let us not pretend that this article by Kid Nate does not assign blame. He blames directly the UFC promotion and Dana White in a very personal way while no mention is made of any other promotion or promoter. Moreover, the article leaves in tatters any responsibility that should be assigned to the fighters. To say that health care, which should be a primary concern of anyone in a physically demanding occupation, is “complex” and then to indirectly assume that fighters are too busy, involved or stupid to understand the need for good coverage is highly insulting to fighters.
All that said though, there are good ideas floating around to alleviate the problem, but bashing the UFC and Dana White like it is they that must bear the brunt of the American health care system in a land touted for personal responsibility appears a little incongruous.
the UFC is the biggest player
I’m not blaming them, I’m trying to encourage them to do something to solve the problem.
1) they have the money
2) it’s in their own self-interest
how is that blame?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
1) they have the money
2) it’s in their own self-interest
Just curious about where you think this fits in…
I agree agree with you, but
In the past you have stated that one major fiasco could end the UFC
I believe you have also cautioned against UFC spending too much on international expansion (might have been Snowden)
Where does health insurance rank on the scale of importance?
Health Insurance would be great, but it a wise business move for them to put out a large expense towards health care, when they don’t have to and they have a lot of other things to worry about and pay for…
or is this a situation where it would be really nice if they could do this for their fighters, but considering all the other risks and expenses this isn’t something that would be wise at this point.
i think health insurance for fighters is huge
much more important than paying dana and lorenzo enough to have multiple ferraris gathering dust in the parking lots of their casinos.
if Dana was taking a truly long term view he’d cut his own pay or defer it so he doesn’t have the extra cash to squander and invest the UFC’s money in things that will help them recruit more and better fighters long term, like health insurance.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
But where does it rank in comparison to international expansion?
How a company executive spends their personal money isn’t at all relevant. That is questions of who he is as a person and relates in no way to what he does as a businessman. If you are gonna play that game you can list hundreds and probably thousands of companies where executives make millions and workers don’t have health care.
international expansion is being financed by loans
the management is spending the profits on themselves.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
With the risk comes the reward.
$40 million in the hole now turning a profit. Good for them.
Why most people here sides with the million-dollar, 500k gambling, 3 dusted ferraris bosses and not with the employees? I don´t understand this mentality.
by Henrique on Aug 3, 2010 1:41 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I am siding with freedom and personal responsibility, a foreign concept to most people.
I think people have the right to be as smart or stupid with their money as they want to be.
by Bob Loblaw TX on Aug 3, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
freedom and personal responsibility
what a fucking joke.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Aug 3, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think he meant:
“freedom and personal responsibility is impossible, that’s what Obama says. IMO, Joe Stephenson should be able to have a bunch of kids and make a conscience decision to not buy health insurance, all while making $200k+ per year and being in the top 10% of wage earners in the USA, and still get sympathy from us.”
I jest, Kid’s point is about the bigger picture rather than just Joe’s situation. In Joe’s specific situation, it was 100% about freedom and personal responsibility. However, as far as MMA goes, it would be better for the UFC and MMA as a whole if the UFC would step up.
by Bob Loblaw TX on Aug 3, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
freedom and personal responsibility
is the rhetoric that gets the serfs to celebrate the czar exploiting them. just updated for a new location and era.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
It's the neatest trick that has ever been pulled off
Getting people to vote against their own interests. Usually happens by bringing other non-day to day issues to confuse the situation.
see also
God
Guns
Gay Marriage
Abortion
War on Drugs
As examples of the right wing shell game.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
What a crock of bullshit
I hate that the mods are letting you guys talk politics, but I can’t just let you guys jerk eachother off.
As far as those things being right wing… go back in history and read about teh real right wing, the fathers of the modern conservative movement, people like Barry Goldwater and Milton Friedman. They were for gun rights (its a property right issue), against the drug war, for gay rights, for abortion rights, and on and on. People like the two of you don’t seem to expose yourself to anything outside of what the NYT and HuffPost have programmed you to accept; you’ve got natural anti-establishment sentiments and youve been conditioned to believe that the establishment is some phantom, neocon overlords that don’t actually exist. Talking about serfs and shit… unbelievable. Don’t cheapen the lives of those who actually lived and live as serfs by yolking yourself with some imaginary heartache.
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
by troy145 on Aug 4, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Why is that such a joke? Maybe it has become one in so many differnet circles, but that’s the truth.
The UFC has the right to run their business as they see fit. If they are right (which they have been so far) they will benefit. If they are wrong, somebody else will jump in and fill in the gap they left or are leaving.
It’s really quite simple really. There are more fighters that are willing to accept these conditions and wages then who are not. It’s no different than any company. Mid level management gets x amount, but your performers get the lion’s share of the treasure and the advantages.
Yo fighter's free will is a fucking joke dude.
We respect the fighters so much that we disregard their decision making ability and manhood as a fucking joke.
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
by troy145 on Aug 3, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Don´t get me wrong
I´m all for capitalism and free market and all these “liberal” (in the true sense of the world, not how you north americans use it) concepts. Heck, here in Brazil my political views are considered right winged!
But for me is just common sense that employees should receive health care from their companies, specially when they work in a hazardous activy like fighting.
I´m a lawyer in a small law firm here in Brazil and when they hired me I didn´t even ask if they would pay me health insurance. It´s just common business.
And the worst that can happen to me during my work hours is getting a heart burn from drinking too much coffee.
The fact that fighters, man, fucking fighters! don´t have health insurance is just crazy to me.
It's absolutely common in the U.S. too
I´m a lawyer in a small law firm here in Brazil and when they hired me I didn´t even ask if they would pay me health insurance. It´s just common business.
Don’t let this posts commentary fool you into thinking otherwise.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
Lol dude... criticize a guy for bringing up a healthcare topic then bash the USA?
I swear I think most of you picture Dana going home and putting on a top hat and monocle before growing himself a nice mustache to twist the ends of.
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
Subtract the mustache and add a vault of gold coins to swim in and you’ve pretty much painted my picture.
I get more rec's then a Toyota!
Typical defensive corporatist propaganda
Exaggerate statements into comical sentences to discredit the actual point.
There is a way to do this that makes everyone happy.
The UFC should start a group policy for the fighters that fighters have the [b]option[/b] to buy into. The group policy would lead to a discounted premium and likely the cheapest rate available to the UFC’s fighters. Once the group policy is in place, the UFC management should place pressure on all of the uninsured fighters to join (no one wants to piss off the boss) and the lower rates would likely bring fighters that already had insurance to the program.
Easy. All the UFC is doing is managing the program and fighters would have affordable health care available to them.
by rask4p on Aug 3, 2010 1:42 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I like it
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
I don’t know if making a high-risk pool larger necessarily mitigates a lot of the costs.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 3, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
It should
simply because groups get discounts where individuals don’t.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
It should, but until the numbers actually get crunched you never know what sort of rates would fall out. Actually, if a group like this was formed the agrument then becomes whether or not the UFC should partially subsidize the plan, but I think that would depend largely on cost and participation.
True
Which makes this an interesting discussion because it’s impossible to know the numbers on our end. It certainly seems like something ZUFFA should be trying.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
i swear they brought it up somewhere in the past, i just can’t find the article.
But there is a reason that other high risk jobs are staffed by independent contractors (which means no insurance), just like fighting is right now. Maybe it will change in time. But this is not a problem that is unique to the ufc.
Which is why I am open to these alternative ideas
Maybe it’s simple not possible due to the nature of the sport have typical insurance for the fighters. To me, that seems unlikely since the most dangerous part of the sport comes from fighting and that’s already covered.
That doesn’t mean allowing the fighters to start an organization to get group benefits would be bad. Or any one of these other interesting ideas that have been thrown about. It’s in ZUFFAS best interest to see these guy get insurance. It would behoove them to spearhead that initiative.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
Insurance would be nice, I just think it’s silly to jump up and down and pout because it’s not there or because zuffa won’t start a union.
If the only options are insurance or no insurance, of course insurance is the better option, but there are many factors that people need to take into account, and getting insurance for the fighters is going to be a lot harder than snapping their fingers and making it so.
I agree it’s not easy. At all. I disagree with the notion we should just ignore that it’s a problem because it’s difficult. Fighters should get year round health benefits and it is possible.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
Rec'd Probably the most sane level headed idea I've seen so far.
It’d be a great start.
Check out my pic a day for a year project-
Life Through My Lens
I say do it
If it can optimize a fighter’s performance. yes.
Regardless of which side of the fighter's union debate you fall on
you have to understand the inherent value of insuring yourself or your employees. It’s not just purely about pay, it’s also about benefits. That’s how you retain top talent. It is in Zuffa’s long term interest to provide this kind of benefit to their fighters because in the long run, a happy and healthy fighter is a loyal fighter. For a financial cost that I am sure Zuffa can afford, they will help ensure they get the most out of their top athletes. And there will probably be less likelihood of them having to deal with fighters bashing them in their memoirs or jumping ship (although, Zuffa is lucky in this regard that they are the only real ship to be on). It really doesn’t take much to keep your employees happy.
On the flip side, fighters have to be smarter. They need to understand the benefits of insurance. Insurance is about financially spreading the risk, instead of retaining all the risk to yourself. Clearly, guys like Joe don’t see the benefits of insurance. I suspect a lot of it has to do with the insurance culture in america, and the fact that when someone hears the words “insurance” they automatically hear “scam.” It’s interesting that people will insure their cars, their homes, their stuff – but not their health. If an employer is not providing it for you, you have to get it yourself. Health care costs can be astronomical – which is why there is insurance, to cover those big costs. Zuffa should be providing this knowledge and coverage to their fighters, but they don’t, because business logic doesn’t think this way. To Zuffa, the less a fighter knows about finances, the better. That’s why they hate dealing with agents and managers, because the good ones will arm their clients with knowledge. I can’t really blame them: a lot of business function this way. Lots of business don’t take care of their employees, because the view is they can just get more. But at what cost? If Zuffa is focusing on athleticism and making the mainstream accept MMA as a real sport, the best thing they can do is take care of fighter health.
Let’s make no mistake: Joe is at fault for not taking insurance (whether he could afford it or not is a different issue). At the end of the day, fighters need to take the advice refs give them all the time before every bout: protect yourself at all times. In this case, financially. Because the biggest financial asset a person has is not their house, or their savings – it’s their ability to make money. Once that is hampered or gone completely, that house, those savings, will vanish very quickly. That 60K fight of the night bonus a fighter earns is nothing in the face of ongoing medical bills. Apologies if any of this was said earlier, since I got to the conversation late in the game and I’m too lazy to read the whole comment section.
by pud333 on Aug 3, 2010 1:48 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Well said!!
you have to understand the inherent value of insuring yourself or your employees. It’s not just purely about pay, it’s also about benefits. That’s how you retain top talent. It is in Zuffa’s long term interest to provide this kind of benefit to their fighters because in the long run, a happy and healthy fighter is a loyal fighter.
Exactly right.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
This is important
Because if it really IS in Zuffa’s best interest to insure their fighters, than they will and that will be great. IF they dont, than eventually someone else will figure it out, and begin to offer a better product at a sustainable cost/price and Zuffa will be forced to act.
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
don't assume that companies always do what is in their self interest
i’m from the oil patch and my friends in the biz have been telling me for years that BP was fucking up and going to ruin things for everyone. guess what, they did.
remember when we had to socialize every major bank in the country 2 years ago? it was because they couldn’t see the real estate/derivatives bust coming, despite being warned by lots of people from warren buffett and george soros to paul krugman
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Obviously companies dont always act in their own self interest
When they don’t, they fail. This is just pure, simple economics. BP has been slipping the Democratic party a handy under the table for decades, and in the last few years they’ve opened up a little threeway with the GOP. Government limiting competition isn’t the same as a real market economy. Krugman doesn’t understand this, quite the contrary. Krugman is an idiot spouting long disproven theories and being hailed as a genius for his troubles.
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
Wow! Health Insurance is a hot button for a lot of people
I’m Canadian so I certainly can’t relate to what it feels like to not be insured.
Some people are acting like Joe Stevenson is going to come to their house at night and steal their money and knock up their daughters if he is ever given health insurance.
I think it’s in the best interest of the UFC to provide blanket converage to all the fighters on thier roster. I’m sure the UFC can get a better rate than each fighter seperately and the UFC can just take the required amount from each purse.
GSP is an alien sent here to humiliate our men and mate with our women
by MMA_Messiah on Aug 3, 2010 2:23 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
The UFC makes a lot of money. They can't provide free health insurance for their fighters?
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
by Warhand on Aug 3, 2010 2:33 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Meanwhile, they pay for Nate Quarry’s back fusion and bask in all the positive artic…
Oh, right.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
While that was an amazing story
and honestly made me proud to be a UFC fan, it should be the norm. It should be so common we don’t even think it’s topical to discuss.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
Can you provide a link to the positive article you wrote on the UFC paying for Nate Quarry’s back fusion? I missed it when it came out.
Ricky Hatton came closer to beating Manny Pacquiao than Marquez did to beating Floyd.
-SC
by The Lethal Haze on Aug 3, 2010 3:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It might be my inaugural “Why Dana White is the greatest thing to ever happen to MMA” series on WKR
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 3, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I have had this idea for a while but didn’t know how feasible it was without knowing how much it would cost for a UFC fighter for health insurance. Now seeing the $500 a month figure I think this idea is possible.
The UFC could partner up with a national insurance company as the official insurance partner/sponsor of the UFC and instead of taking payment from the insurance company all fighters get health insurance. These aren’t exact numbers but for example the UFC has approx. 300 fighters under contract. 300 fighters at $500 a month would be $150k a month. With the amount of events the UFC has they could easily mentioning the partnership enough times and maybe label the fight of the night, sub of the night, and KO of the night after the insurance company. Or something in that vain to get the insurance company the value they need out of the partnership and the UFC gets the good PR of providing it’s fighters with health insurance.
That would be my solution.
Just BE.
Sadly, I don't have the time to read the ~800 comments in here
but, one big problem the UFC would have insuring their fighters is the huge chance of insurance fraud. It’s easy for the NBA and other leagues to insure their players because they are involved in team functions (games/practices/scrimmages) something upwards of 250+ days out of the year, probably more. If someone pulls a Jeff Kent and hurts their wrist popping wheelies on a dirt bike, it’s a lot easier to catch (maybe a bad example, as witnesses were the ones that disproved it, but whatever) when they’re there as often as baseball players are. The UFC sees their fighters maybe three weeks out of the year. The rest of the time they’re on their own doing their own training.
Unless we simply don’t care how they hurt themselves (drunken escapades, slipping on stairs, hunting injury, w/e) vs actual training related injuries. Not that the former is an actual problem, just that its a serious consideration.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
I was thinking about this too...
when I asked how you identify a “training injury”…
by Broke Lesnar on Aug 4, 2010 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions
How is it "insurance fraud"?
The medical insurance companies don’t care if it took place during a game or while you were playing paintball, you still get covered.
Called it before the fight:
Cardio - The BIG question. Does Shane Carwin have cardio? He's never gone past the first round. His muscle mass is astounding and we all know that with all that muscle comes a need for the heart to pump fresh oxygenated blood to keep them from building lactic acid. He does train up in the thin air of Colorado, so that can't do anything but help. However, we have seen him pretty winded after a 1st round fight. Adrenaline dump or cardio problems? We won't find out the answer to that until someone takes him out of the first round.
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 4, 2010 4:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I think the prevailing sentiment is,
It would be nice to see healthcare paid for, but nobody is crying for Joe Stevenson’s silly money management.
I'm SHOCKED that this has thread has taken the turn it has
Same people shilling the same ole Zuffa Company line. Then a bunch of crap about politics and “socialism”.
If these people would move out of their parents houses, then they would understand how tough it really is out there for a fighter and his family.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
by aaronb on Aug 3, 2010 3:17 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
LOL, moved out when I was 17, I have had health insurance since then, haven’t had a minute without it. Why? Because I prioritize.
Dave Ramsey, baby. If people would just follow his advice, we’d all be okay.
by Bob Loblaw TX on Aug 3, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Bullshit.
Its tough out there for every fucking body. And a lot of people make less money, have more expenses, and sadder stories. You’re still responsible for yourself, because that is how it is. These generalizations that anyone with the counter view is a shill is getting old… I think it would be great if they had insurance, but it isn’t as if he thought the insurance would fall out of the sky…. He made a real decision to simply not buy insurance. Had he made the opposite decision, he wouldn’t be the “example”. What kind of car does Joe have? How about his house? How big is his family? What are his other expenses? We don’t know much about any of this, yet we can assume that 250k plus isn’t enough pay for a guy to get health insurance?
Career choices should be made with these considerations made before hand. Anybody can decide they want to be a fighter, that doesn’t make them less responsible for their own decisions.
by Broke Lesnar on Aug 4, 2010 2:17 AM EDT up reply actions
there are so many candidates for “dumbest comment ever” on this thread, and this is another one. you’re the one who needs to move out of the basement and get into the real world, my friend. just because things are “tough” for a fighter doesn’t mean he’s entitled to anything. he could always choose another line of work.
so many of the arguments coming from Kid Nate and his camp are all couched in the belief that these guys have no life choices but to be professional fighters and that expecting them to be personally accountable for their own health is someone else’s responsibility. and you want to talk about living in your parents’ basement? grow up!
Funny I could say the same about the incredibly tired and full of crap anti-Zuffa talking points that blame them even when things have nothing to do with their business like this.
Stevenson is an idiot if he’s making over 300k and doesn’t have health insurance, I know about the real world and the fact that he’s made that much money and is so irresponsible is sickening.
Leave it to Nate to reach new levels and try to blame Dana for everything, what a joke the UFC more than takes care of fighters like Stevenson. To try and pass to blame to them because he’s too stupid to get his stuff together while making several times more than the average american makes is truly reaching a new low even for you.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
If I were GEICO or Blue Cross, I'd pay fighters with lifetime insurance to have logos tattooed onto their backs/chests.
Hell, you’d get a lot more screen time as a tattoo during the fight, instead of that banner before and t shirt /hat combo at the end.
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
Its very simple
Professional sports are very dangerous to the health of the participants, while being overwhelmingly profitable for the corporations that control them. You can’t have the cream without paying for the cow, so how hard is it to make mandatory free lifetime health care for all participants?. This would settle the whole discussion.
The only reason it would not?, is because the Corporations would not want it to cut into their profit.
You’re making two contradictory arguments.
“You can’t have the cream without paying for the cow” indicates that the cow (health insurance) needs to be paid for by those profiting from the cream (Zuffa, the cream being quality MMA). Then, you say it would “cut into their profits”, which indicates that the cream is just fine without that extra cow money.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 3, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
No, your making arbitray conclusions of the terms
The Cream is the profit, the Cow is the Athlete.
The Athlete risks his body to drive the profit of the company
I live right down the street from a very fine dairy. They have no problem making profit off the milk and taking very good care of the cows, it makes sense to them since they can’t have one without the other. Its shouldn’t be any different here.
Do they take care of the cows after they stop giving milk? That’s what “lifetime” health care equates to. That is a whole different arguement from paying for health care while they are under contract.
Yes
If an athlete gets an injury while on company time, that requires lifetime care then it makes sense to me, these are after all humans, not cows.
Corporations never want anything that cuts into their profits because profit margins are a huge part of corporate sucess or failure. Getting a company to give away money is like trying to teach dogs to quack instead of bark.
If someone wants to just give away their money, I will gladly take it.
Seriously, corporations should just give millions away because some people think its “fair.” “Fair” is the worst word in the English language. Absent unconscionable business terms (I don’t think anyone would argue that the UFC’s payment is unconscionable, though the remainder of their contracts may be another story), what’s fair is what is contracted for, and Joe Daddy didn’t contract for UFC provided health insurance. I don’t see why fans see the need to comment on the contractual agreement of two consenting entities.
because it's our money
and I’d much rather my money went to Joe Daddy’s x-rays and surgery than to Dana’s gambling habits or up someone’s nose.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Good Point
I bet dairy cows are insured.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
by Warhand on Aug 3, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I wonder if Dana White has Zuffa company health insurance?
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
I’m sure he can afford his own plan.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 3, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not sure if this point has been made or not, but isn’t the sports long term future aided by healthy former fighters? Health insurance for fighters provided by the UFC would be a PR coup that would in many ways rebut a good deal of the future negative commentary. Beyond Nate’s point about attracting the best talent imaginable, as MMA penetrates the mainstream the arguments and debate will shift and will, most likely, get a bit more nuanced. So, for example, providing health care would be an excellent riposte to claims that the UFC doesn’t pay fighters a living wage for what is a dangerous, brutal sport.
I dunno. Maybe I’m overestimating what future arguments against MMA will look like, but like Nate said, this is really about long term self-interest.
Go read some of the articles written about the NFL player’s association insurance and retirement plans. From a PR point it’s pretty useless because no matter what you accomplish it will still be pushed as not being enough by a lot of people. Obviously there is a problem and more that the UFC should do but the PR angle of it is always going to bite them in the ass no matter what they do.
It is times like these that I thank jesus for the NHS,
get onto it America it fucking kicks ass.
"Vikings fucked Vikings for generation after generation and their warrior bloodlines were passed on, and this motherfucker living in the woods in Minnesota got the best of the best."
the NHS is awful and worthless
and God help the U.S. if we get something like it. the UK is currently looking to decentralize the NHS’s responsibilities bc the NHS sucks so bad and is bankrupting the country.
Agreed
If you can’t afford health insurance than your life isn’t important.
What Dana and the Fertittas need to do is set up “Zuffa collective farms”. Then the fighters could pick cotton in between their fights.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
If you dont believe in a fatally defective socialized healthcare system
You support slavery.
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
Kid Nate embarrasses himself yet again
I’m gonna guess it was Kid Nate who was the nitwit who posted the “Huffington Post slams Chael Sonnen” thread a few weeks back. this latest post is pure garbage from jump street and is intellectually embarrassing.
the idiocy starts with the title: “Joe Stevenson must travel to Mexico for X-Rays”. I’d call a title like that “spin” if I thought Kid Nate was smart enough to actually be trying to manipulate the story to his advantage, but I don’t think he is. I think he’s just plain ole dumb and believes that Joe actually “must” go to Mexico for an X-ray. the truth, Nate, is that Joe could travel down the street to his local doctor’s office for an X-ray. the thing is, Joe has decided that it is a better use of his time and money to travel to Mexico to do it more cheaply than to have it done here at a higher cost to him. this decision, JUST LIKE HIS DECISION TO NOT GET INSURANCE IN THE FIRST PLACE, rests entirely with Joe.
Joe is a UFC star. STAR. with his fight purses alone he could afford a “Cadillac insurance plan”. add in endorsements, seminars, sponsorships, etc…Joe could EASILY afford insurance. he chose not to get it. and this is Dana White’s fault, that greedy capitalist!
I can tell by your arguments that you seem to think that health insurance companies should be public utilities that are not allowed to charge but “so much” for insurance. that “so much”, of course, is determined by you, apparently, and is based on just a gut-type-feeling. this is pure idiocy.
I’m sure that somewhere in the 900 other posts that have been made that someone else has schooled you on how the UFC pays 100% of the fighters’ medical bills for injuries sustained during a UFC card. they’ve even paid for injuries in training camp for some fighters. the latter is out of the kindness of Zuffa’s heart, the former they’re insured for as part of the event. outside of those things, however, being a PROFESSIONAL FIGHTER is an inherently dangerous profession, and anyone who is one should expect to pay a fortune for health insurance. why?
because insurance companies are in the business of making money, and you don’t make money by insuring people who are going to COST your company way more than they will pay it. you must remember: INSURANCE COMPANIES MAKE MONEY OFF OF THE HEALTHY. THEY LOSE MONEY ON THE SICK/INJURED. for this reason, your monthly premium as a fighter is OF COURSE going to be through the roof. if you think it’s possible to both stay in business AND insure fighters on the cheap, then I encourage you to get a group of your whiney liberal friends together and start your own Fighters’ Insurance Co. I will laugh as you quickly go bankrupt.
you ever heard of “expected value”? probably not. look it up. suffice to say that if you can afford to pay cash for medical procedures, it makes better sense NOT to get insurance. why? because, since insurance companies expect to MAKE money off of you, this BY DEFINITION means that you will pay more in premiums than they will ever spend on you. this, in turn, means that it would cost you less to just pay the bills yourself…IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT once those expenses pop up. most people can’t, which is why they’re willing to pay for medical insurance WHEN THEY’RE HEALTHY so that they can get coverage for expensive treatments WHEN THEY’RE SICK. got it??
and yes, Zuffa WITHOUT A DOUBT did a cost-benefit study on this issue, and they found that the costs outweighed the benefits. we know this to be true by the fact that Zuffa does not insure its fighters despite clearly having the money to do so. just because a company CAN afford something doesn’t mean it’s a good use of their money. cost-benefit, baby.
this is all old news anyway. Dana White specifically addressed these points in some modicum of detail in an interview he did with Playboy over a year ago. feel free to google it. a memorable quote (paraphrasing here): “Go tell a health insurance company you have a few hundred pro mma fighters you need to insure on the cheap. they’ll laugh in your face. this is why the IFL’s stock is worth four cents.”
lastly, like a good little HuffPo loyalist, you had to throw in the comment about, “I’m not even going to mention that fighters in (insert crappy socialist health-care countries here) wouldn’t have to worry about this.” well, first of all, you DID mention it, and secondly, again, you’re WRONG. BIG TIME. this is the paradigm shift you need to make here: fighters in those countries are WORSE off than American fighers. if you’re a pro fighter in a socialist health-care country, you must go through your country’s health care system to get care. care in those countries is rationed, so unless you can afford to pay cash out of pocket for a surgery or something, you’re going to be waiting in queue for your turn just like everyone else. this could potentially put you on the shelf long enough to end your career. in the States, if you have insurance, your insurance pays for your surgery and you get seen right away. even if you don’t have insurance in the states, you can still get seen right away but will have to pay out of pocket. so, no matter which type of health system you have, you can always get treatment right away if you have the cash to pay for it yourself (and even then, you’re more than likely gonna be coming to the U.S. for surgery if you live in a socialist health care country since the govt has the doctors. either that, or you’ll have to find a private doctor in your socialist country). if you don’t have that kind of cash, you’ll still be okay if you have insurance and live in the States. if you live in one of said countries, you don’t have to have your own insurance, but you are going to have to wait your turn as the machinations of your country’s healthcare bureaucracy slowly get around to treating you. this is also “not to mention” the fact that the govt would have the power, in a socialist medical system, to refuse to treat you on the state’s dime if you engage in risky activities like, say, oh, being a professional mma fighter. in a capitalist system, you can still get coverage, you just have to pay a higher premium for it in order to compensate for the additional risk (naturally!).
if you are a true MMA fan and think Obamacare is going to be the answer to fighters’ health issues, you couldn’t be more wrong.
you really ought to learn how the real world works before you further embarrass yourself with your politically-driven posts, Nate.
by Rex Goliath on Aug 4, 2010 4:18 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
You throw around “socialist health-care”, “Obamacare”, “HuffPo loyalist” and "whiney liberal’ as pejoratives, then have the audacity to tell someone he should stop before he embarrasses himself with his politically-driven post? How the hell can anyone hold a civil discourse when the first reaction is to go nuclear on those foolish enough not to hold the same view?
I let Nate have it bc he’s dragging his uninformed, lefty politics into a sports blog. I wouldn’t much care to hear someone’s right-wing opinions on THIS BLOG about health care either. I don’t want to have to discuss politics on BE. but, if some uninformed hack like Nate wants to bring it up, he should be prepared for the beating that ensues.
and it wasn’t “bc he doesn’t hold the same view.” it was bc of his approach (I mentioned how he put in the title “Joe MUST go to Mexico for X-Rays”, which couldn’t be further from the truth).
and of course my post was political, dummy. it was in response to a political post. how could it not be???
Even with all the song and dance about fighters being ‘independent contractors’ and all, Zuffa basically owns these guys. Would it really, really, really be such a really, really, really bad idea for Zuffa to provide health insurance for their fighters? It would probably mean less fights getting postponed/cancelled due to injuries, better fights because the fighters were healthier and in the end, more money for Zuffa because their product would be better. Moreover, it’s more or less a given that Zuffa would get a much better rate than Stevenson’s 500USD/month. Sure, it would cost money, but a) it’s not like Zuffa doesn’t have money and b) for the reasons mentioned above, it wouldn’t be all negative in the long run.
Having said that, this post will probably be either ignored or labeled as commie socialist propaganda.
You don't like wrestling in MMA? Go watch K-1.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Aug 4, 2010 5:10 AM EDT reply actions
I don’t necessarily even disagree that Zuffa providing health insurance to, say, the top half of its fighters would be a good thing. I’m all for it (though it would have zero impact on how often fighters would be having to drop out of fights due to injuries. simply bc you have coverage doesn’t mean you’re not going to get hurt in training). my problem with Nate’s post and the direction this thread took was that many of you were DEMANDING that Zuffa cover these guys. these guys are independent contractors and choose to pursue careers in fighting KNOWING FULL WELL that it is a dangerous job and that it can leave your body wrecked. if Zuffa wants to be kind and beneficent by providing coverage, good for them. I’m all for it. but don’t condemn them for NOT doing it when they’re in no way obligated to do so.
Huuuge thread
I stayed out for the longest while, but just thought I’d drop in and say I completely agree with Nate on this issue. Good of you to bring it up!
The underlying issue is of course that the so called “best country on earth” doesn’t have universal and free health care for it’s citizens – that’s some fucked up shit right there.
by Horselover Fat on Aug 4, 2010 9:29 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Makes sense even from a pure business perspective
Yup, well-written, Nate. There is absolutely no point in arguing with anyone that uses the word “socialist” to describe providing health insurance for employees, so I’m not going to get into that stuff, but yes, even when just considering the UFC’s long-term bottom line, it makes sense for them to provide health insurance. Imagine if Karo had gotten that surgery. It was have already paid for itself by now.
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