UFC 118: Is BJ Penn Overrated? Facts Point to Yes
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 2:42 AM EDT
in UFC Editorial
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BJ Penn was manhandled last night. Manhandled by a fighter most experts consider too small for the lightweight division. Frankie Edgar had his way with Penn, scoring on his feet and even taking down the man who seemed in past fights to have uncanny balance and defense. Many people were shocked by Penn's two losses to Edgar. Not me. Looking carefully at Penn's career leads you to one conclusion-despite his inflated reputation, the extraordinary BJ Penn is merely ordinary.
The raw numbers stand out like a sore thumb. In title fights, BJ Penn is a pedestrian 5-5-1. For every big fight he wins, he loses one in turn. The true greats of the sport, your Georges St. Pierres, your Matt Hughes, your Frank Shamrocks, your Fedor Emelianenkos, are defined by rising to the occasion. When the fights get tougher, these men only get better. Not so with BJ Penn.
BJ Penn is a front runner. We learned that for the first time against Jens Pulver at UFC 35. Crowned as champion before even stepping into the cage, Penn had no answer for Pulver's heart and determination. When the fight got to the point where it demanded each man expose his very soul to walk away the winner, Penn faltered. Pulver stepped forward. That was the difference.
From that day forward the BJ Penn modus operandi has been losing the big one. With the exception of upsetting Matt Hughes at UFC 46, the defining fights of Penn's career have all been losses. Against St. Pierre twice. Against Hughes in the rematch. And now, when confronted by a fighter not afraid to test his mettle against Penn head to head, two losses against Edgar.
BJ Penn, when it is all said and done, will be considered a disappointment. From the time, before his UFC debut, that Frank Shamrock announced the "Prodigy" would be the greatest fighter of all time until this latest loss to Edgar, Penn has little to show for what should have been a legendary career.
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BJ the Front Runner
Thank you for saying it John, I couldn’t agree more! I remember him calling GSP that and just shaking my head. When the going gets tough BJ folds and fades away.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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I think what we are seeing is what we all already knew
BJ would go as far as his God given talent would take him. And that’s pretty damn far, but, in general he doesn’t train as hard as other fighters. He doesn’t strategize as well as other fighters. His cornermen aren’t as good as others. He gets in the cage and he’s BJ. Many times that’s enough to win, but, as time goes on and other guys continue to gravitate to the top camps to access the best minds, techniques and training he will continue to fall behind. What we’re seeing is the answer to the question of “How far can BJ go not training with the best. Not strategizing with the best.” We’ve been asking the question for years. Now we know the answer. The question now is what will BJ do?
"Against Hughes in the Rematch"
Why even bother? He tooled Hughes for two rounds and broke his rib. Thanks for the dishonesty.
Don’t forget to mention that the first GSP fight was a split decision, or that that first frankie edgar fight was called for penn by everyone whose name I know on this site… or that
by PORkSOdA on Aug 29, 2010 2:49 AM EDT reply actions 22 recs
He lost
You don’t get points for losing. He doesn’t get some kind of mulligan for having a broken rib.
You can make all the excuses you want, but Snowden’s point stands, he lost those fights. And when history writes about the greats, that split decision and that broken rib are just going to be liner notes on a career that never quite achieved greatness.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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by Worldisart on Aug 29, 2010 2:51 AM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
Yes, he does get a mulligan for having broken a rib. He completely tooled Hughes for two rounds and came out in the third looking like a different man. It led to years of speculation that he had no cardio. It was ridiculous. He even released X-Rays to prove it.
by PORkSOdA on Aug 29, 2010 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
he Broke a rib, DURING the fight against Hughes,
that is no excuse. He lost that one…
the first fight against Frankie, he won… BUT that all went to shit by his loss a while ago.
by Anton Tabuena on Aug 29, 2010 2:55 AM EDT up reply actions
No, it is a perfect excuse. I am sick of hearing about his weak cardio or whatever… and it all stems from that fight. He tooled hughes and then got injured while applying an armbar and triangle choke simultaneously as the bell rang. That is as good as an excuse can get.
I am sick of hearing about his weak cardio or whatever… and it all stems from that fight
No.
It all stems from the first Pulver fight, when BJ dominated two rounds and then faded down the stretch. The second Hughes fight was merely confirmation, and the GSP fights were the exclamation points.
by Steve4192 on Aug 29, 2010 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You, my friend, are delusional. BJ has sub-par cardio. That’s a fact. And injuries happen. Maybe if he took better care of himself he could’ve avoided the injury. And if the “freak injury” was the only reason he lost, I think they could’ve jumped all over Hughes-Penn 3. So why didn’t they? BJ got owned at WW and went back to LW. Simple as that. We know what happened when he tried to come back up again, too. And let’s be honest, why did Penn move up multiple times? Because the LW division was weak. Why is Anderson rumored to be moving up? Why isn’t Shogun moving up? Shouldn’t be that hard to figure this out.
And he still lost
He suffered a broken rib in a fight? The heck you say. It doesn’t matter. He lost. There are no mulligans, there are no asterisks. Fact is whenever on the brink of truly moving to another level in his career, BJ Penn came up short, and it doesn’t matter the reasons because greatness doesn’t abide excuses, history only cares about results. BJ Penn lost.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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Maybe your history doesn’t care about reasons, but mine does. The fact that he broke his rib in the second round of Hughes v Penn II is significant to me. It’s ridiculous to ignore it if you watch the first two rounds.
He broke his rib in a fight!!
How can that be an excuse? Explain that to me.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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It was a freak thing… have you seen the fight yourself? I don’t even think he really broke his rib, it was separated from his sternum or something. It was an accident that wasn’t related to Matt Hughes’s punishment, but to the beating he was putting on Matt Hughes.
Regardless, injuries happen in fights
Freak or not it’s the nature of the beast.
Anderson Silva claimed to have a rib injury going into the fight with Sonnen, if he had lost were you prepared to make excuses for him?
Fact is this, he didn’t win the fight, and at the biggest moments of his career he never has. I love BJ Penn. I think he is a once in a lifetime talent, but Snowden is just telling it like it is, when give the chance to transcend the sport with a big win, BJ Penn lost. Freak injuries, lame excuses, doesn’t matter, only the L does.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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We are not talking about win loss records, we are talking about legacies. He didn’t win the belt from Hughes… that is what the rib injury did to him, but it should not detract from his legacy.
If Anderson Silva came out dominating Sonnen for two rounds then looked like a chemo patient for the next three, I definitely would make excuses for him if he broke a rib while holding chael in both an armbar and triangle when the buzzer rang at the end of the second round.
Which largest matches of his career did he lose? The ones where he won the belt or the ones where he didn’t? How many times did he win the championship? How many times did he lose it?
Sorry, dude
but the fact is, the guys who are considered to be a level above BJ have also faced extreme difficulty in their fights. The difference is they overcame them and won the fights. GSP tore his groin out in the 3rd and continued to take down Alves. Fedor got dropped on his head by Randleman like no one else and didnt lose composer. Big Nog takes extreme beatings and comes away with the W and the same now goes for A. Silva. Randy kicks ass after 40.
What BJ’s career does not have anywhere on it is an asterisk beside a win that states he overcame some tremendous adversity. Closest he gets is a win against a larger Hughes. To me that is the line between who is great and who is elite.
by iddqd on Aug 29, 2010 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
He may have lost those fights
but in no way does that make him overrated.
The only way I have seen him as overrated is when I heard some nut huggers
argue that he would wreck Anderson Silva. I hate BJ nut huggers, but I have the utmost respect for him as a fighter. Edgar is his kryptonite. I think BJ retires now and is rightfully inducted into the hall of fame. He is one of the all time greats.
Agreed
He may not be the best but he’s still one of the best fighters to have ever fought. This article is just completely ignoring everything he has accomplished.
its not ignoring anything. Its focusing on BJ in big time/ Title fights and how he folds under pressure in those fights.
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Don’t forget that BJ poked the shit out of GSP eye in the first rd of the first fight too. Then he did damage because GSP was basically fighting with one eye. Then he went on to get tooled in the 2nd and 3rd.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Twitter Handle = @xFenixKnightx
by xFenixKnightx on Aug 29, 2010 2:52 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I wouldn’t way tooled, but yea, they eye poke was significant and I called the fight for GSP personally. I just want honesty. This shit is dishonest. The point of this article is to dishonestly criticize BJ Penn and that annoys me. Yes GSP was poked in the eye in the first round of a controversial split decision that went his way.
I’m no BJ fan but I still think he’s a pretty bad mofo for what he’s accomplished. Just can’t stand his arrogance some times.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Twitter Handle = @xFenixKnightx
by xFenixKnightx on Aug 29, 2010 2:59 AM EDT up reply actions
If you're going to pick nits
Like talking about The Broken Rib, it needs to be pointed out that sans the blatant eyepoke, the first GSP fight would not have been close.
…Just trying to keep you honest.
1. GSP decision is still a loss.
2. The point is the BJ’s skills are so far greater (or so we thought) than Edgars, it should never have gone to a decision.
Penn will be considered a disappointment by a lot of people, although I am not one of them. I still recognize Penn as one of the greatest fighters ever, but not at the level of a GSP. One is like a brilliant kid in school that decides to work when he wants to and the other is like a smart kid in school who applies himself everyday.
I thought the article was bang on.
by ManicPreacher on Aug 29, 2010 8:09 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm no Penn fan...
or more to the point I kind if hate his fans. But this feels more than a bit unfair to me.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
by Razreshat on Aug 29, 2010 2:50 AM EDT reply actions 13 recs
and how convenient that jonathan waited AFTER the event to put out this article;
i mean, if he truly believes that bj’s an overrated fighter going by his fight record, he should have had this article published in the week leading to the actual fight for everyone to put in their two cent’s worth, and not after
by theblade on Aug 29, 2010 3:38 AM EDT up reply actions 17 recs
snowden is a front runner
"I want to tell me what you see, let's go ahead and see by the fight what you saw, in the ring"
by crinow on Aug 29, 2010 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions 11 recs
That’s true. The television tells us he is one of the best fighters ever. Surely he has to beat Frankie Edgar?
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions
So u live and die by your idiot box? Poor excuse for recanting on your prefight picks.
by TheWaker on Aug 29, 2010 10:18 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 5 recs
Future Snowden articles
The Housing Market: A Bad Investment.
Iraq: WoMDs? Facts Point to No.
LeBron James: Leaving Cleveland- Facts Point to Yes.
Superbowl III: I’m Taking The Jets over The Colts.
by Ironbuddha on Aug 29, 2010 6:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 6 recs
Agreed.
I’m no fan of Penn, that’s for sure. But this is unfair. He beat Hughes back when it mattered. He rules the LW roost by beating Sherk, Florian, Diego… I give Penn his props. He’s always been inconsistent, and he got beat by a dude smaller then him, who people have said doesn’t belong in the LW division. There’s no denying it, even for a Penn fanboy. That said, this article is a bit unfair for sure.
"He’s always been inconsistent"
I’m not even sure that is entirely fair, but he has often (and much more than any other fighter) pushed the limits as to who he can or should fight.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
by Razreshat on Aug 29, 2010 3:03 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed. I’d like to see what happens in BJ’s next fight before making any judgements. What if Edgar:Penn = Hallman:Hughes?
If you don't like the effect, don't produce the cause.
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shogun:machida
machida will be relegated to gatekeeper status now. he’s overrated too.
"I want to tell me what you see, let's go ahead and see by the fight what you saw, in the ring"
Machida was being spoken of like he had already cleaned out the light heavyweight division. Instead he made one successful title defense almost no one thinks he won.
by VirtualBalboa on Aug 29, 2010 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s almost as ridiculous as the article Snowden authored.
Machida tore through elite competition and made mince meat out of fighters considered elite and top 5 and everyone was scared of fighting him. To sum it up like that is just baring your complete ignorance of who Machida had beaten and how he had beaten them. The guy barely ever got hit, and threw Tito around like a rag-doll. Name me another fighter who’s accomplished similar in the shark-tank that is the lhw division?
He made mince meat of how many top 5 fighters? He beat Rashad Evans. That’s it. Who’s accomplished similar? Forrest Griffin beat Rampage Jackson, Shogun Rua, and Tito Ortiz. That’s an even more impressive list at the moment.
by VirtualBalboa on Aug 30, 2010 8:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Machida destroyed Thiago Silva, who’s probably a top 5. I doubt Forrest could even compete with Thiago.
Forrest Griffin got wasted by Tito in the first fight, and barely eeked out a decision due to Tito being out of shape and finished as a fighter in the second. And yeah, he beat Shogun, who was fat and rusty and healing. You wanna see a slaughtering? Watch them re-match. No one in their right mind would take Forrest.
I’ll give him the fight against Rampage, another close decision where we saw Forrest get his body blasted over and over again.
So compare those wins with Machida’s wins and tell me who’s wins are more impressive? I don’t want to take away from Forrest, I like the guy, but he’s easily the shakiest LHW champ ever who benefitted from great matchmaking by Dana. I guess the Soku fight doesn’t mean as much in hindsight, but at the time Machida killed him he was feared.
And yes, you can probably come up with anything to back up any argument so us going at it is pretty useless, albeit fun.
I just hope he doesn’t come out with some excuse that he was sick or whatever like after the 1st fight. In all the prefight interviews he was all hyped up and ready to go. Said he felt great and he was motivated and blah blah blah.
He got schooled tonight, plain and simple.He got slammed, tagged and just plain got dominated. So happy for Edgar, dude is all class.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Twitter Handle = @xFenixKnightx
BJ hasn’t lost in the lightweight division for years, and now you write him off just because Edgar is 1-1 vs him (BJ won the first fight, comon)? Match-ups make fights, and Edgar simply just has BJ’s number. And you really shouldn’t be using the “rising up to the occasion” argument to differentiate BJ with the rest of the champions you listed. He was fighting guys above his weight class, why don’t we put GSP in against the likes of the top tier middleweights and see how he fairs
He’s been back at lightweight since mid 2007. He’s 6-2 in that span in the division.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 2:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Those two losses were to the same person.
He’s beaten everybody else relevant in the division except for Maynard. How does that make him overrated?
If you are the best fighter in the world you don’t lose every big fight of your career save one. That’s why he’s overrated.
1. Pulver
2. Uno draw
3. St. Pierre I
4. Hughes II
5. St.Pierre II
6. Edgar II
Those are the defining fights of his life. He lost them all. He won once against Hughes. That’s not the record of an all-time great.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 2:58 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
By your logic
Couture isn’t an all time great either. He may have lost those fights but it doesn’t mean he isn’t a great fighter.
by av1o3 on Aug 29, 2010 3:04 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Couture's defining moments are wins
The first fight with Chuck, his victory over Tim Sylvia.
That’s the difference and the point John is making is that regardless of their record, in their biggest fights, when the odds are stacked against them or when they fall behind early, the great fighters, they find a way to win.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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So the 2 dominating losses to Chuck aren't just as defining moments?
You can’t have it both ways.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
Sure
But as John pointed out below me, Randy still has more wins than losses in big fights.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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By one fucking fight
and that one fight lets you say that Randy is greater than BJ? I’m not saying that BJ is the greatest of all time, but you guys are trying to deny that he’s not one of the greats of the sport and thats bullshit.
by av1o3 on Aug 29, 2010 3:10 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sure
Randy’s big wins are bigger than BJ’s if you ask me.
Randy’s story has always been winning when no one gave him a shot.
BJ’s story is losing when he was on the cusp of greatness.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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Don't forget
Randy beat Chuck at 39 years old! And Sylvia at something like 44 and then Gonzaga. Thats what’s different between BJ and Randy.
Neither fighter is done yet...
And not all big fighters come with accessories as prizes.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
Penn has had some losses, but Penn was also on that streak of dominating victories where he was considered THE lightweight. You could make the “defining moments” argument about him either way.
If you don't like the effect, don't produce the cause.
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^This
BJ should’ve gotten that first decision, and he had been on a tear until that point. Still, there is something to be said about his training and whether he gives as much as GSP and Edgar seem to. I think he needs to mix that up for sure.
"Nothing's ever what it seems. And even if it is, ends justify means." -Matt Good
Right
Its not saying that BJ isn’t a great fighter, its just pointing out the obvious facts about his biggest fights.
Same knock people have on Peyton Manning.
Same knock on A-Rod.
Same knock on Barkley.
All great, but don’t consistently come through when the lights are the brightest and the stage the biggest.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 29, 2010 10:10 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Barkley doesnt fit this argument.
He was a great clutch player.
Never won a championship but it wasn’t his fault.
A-Rod and Peyton are completely different cases…
That's true
But I had already posted it before I thought it through a little more.
Barkley didn’t choke in the biggest games, but ran up against better players/teams. He generally played very well in same personally.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 29, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Couture is borderline. He has won more of the big ones. Randy is 9-6 in title fights. But losing the series to Liddell certainly hurts.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 3:07 AM EDT up reply actions
A fighter's greatness isn't measured by their record
its their fights and what they’ve done. Randy’s 19-10 and its safe to say that everyone considers him one of the greatest. Most of BJs losses were to some of the greatest and it’s not like those fights weren’t competitive except for a couple.
Come on, let's be fair here
BJ’s record would look a whole lot better if he had stayed within his weight class instead of striving to challenge himself against Hughes (1 loss + 1 win), GSP (2 losses) and Machida (1 loss).
Substitute 5 fights against top-5 LWs at the time instead and you see a huge swing in perception.
I don’t like BJ’s excuse making, but I have more respect for him as a fighter than almost any other fighter.
Think about it, if GSP, Anderson & Fedor were willing to actively seek out challenges for the sake of the challenge like BJ has done, we would know a lot more about them as fighters than we do know, and they would almost certainly have more losses than they do know…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 29, 2010 10:23 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
Did you intend to reply to someone else?
I’m simply pointing out that 4 of his losses came against guys 1-3 weight classes above BJ…nothing more and nothing less – they are still losses…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 29, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
But why did BJ move up? Because there wasn’t competition where he was and he thought he could beat the guys he moved up to fight. We can’t ignore his higher-weight class fights. They are part of his career. Now, if the vast majority of fans thought that BJ had zero chance at winning those fights, it would be different as far as overrated goes. But seriously………..what elite fighter have you seen get dominated in his prime in 4+ round fights as BJ did against GSP 2 and Edgar 2?
They are absolutely part of his career and should not be ignored, but simply taken in the proper context.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 29, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, I took them into context. But you didn’t comment on the fact that it still makes him overrated.
I was simply pointing out that he was not not overrated in his natural weight class, but as an overall fighter I suppose that is a fair assessment – he certainly was not as great as he (and his fanboys) imagined him to be.
After all, in PRIDE (at numerous weights) and in the UFC at HW at least, there are many fights with guys having more than 10% of their weight as a difference and no one making excuses about it (although they would have had Fedor come to the UFC).
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 29, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
OK…..right there…….you admitted that Penn, overall as a fighter, could be considered overrated. You didn’t say he was awful. Just that he wasn’t as good as the majority perceived him to be. That’s all it takes.
Funny thing is I’m usually one of the guys on the other side of the arguement, but sometimes the pendulem swings too far IMO like it did with Fedor where opinion seemed to swing from one ridiculous extreme to another (i.e. from Fedor couldn’t beat any UFC HW to he could beat Lesnar and Overeem…at the same time…).
I think BJ is the greatest LW ever, thus far, and I consider Fedor to be the greatest HW ever, so far…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 29, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree. People just let their emotions go too far when it comes to something recent. After a certain amount of time, most will be able to put it in proper perspective. But I’m still probably lower on BJ than you are. I just think he’s the 2nd coming of Tito, only better. I think they both took advantage of weaker competition. And I don’t take anything away from Fedor just for getting caught in a sub. It was only a matter of time before he lost. You don’t have to go undefeated to be elite.
what elite fighter have you seen get dominated in his prime in 4+ round fights as BJ did against GSP 2 and Edgar 2
Anderson comes to mind, although he of course recovered to snatch a last minute sub against an incredibly sub-prone guy.
But there are other examples, just in fights that didn’t last nearly as long, of guys getting dominated when perhaps they “shouldn’t have” according to consensus (some came back to win, some didn’t) – GSP/Serra, Hughes/Trigg, Shogun/Overeem, Big Nog throughout his career, and numerous others
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 29, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
GSP did more than avenge his loss to Serra. Anyone can get caught in any fight. It’s much more revealing when a fighter gets completely dominated for the majority of a 5 round fight. And yes, Anderson and Hughes both won. They did what the elite do…..they overcome difficult situations…..not quit.
Agreed
As I mentioned earlier elsewhere on this post, for various reasons, BJ is a guy who just doesn’t have “it” when the lightest are the brightest and the stage the biggest.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 29, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I completely agree. That “it” is heart, discipline, and determination. You need all of those to compete at an elite level this day in age. BJ is not the elite fighter that he showed signs of being. But his fans still keep giving him a pass after every single loss. It’s ridiculous.
His fans are about as annoying as Fedor’s can be – and that is saying something…
One of the things that has long frustrated me about BJ and Rampage is, no matter how good they have been, what they could have been with 80% of the drive of a GSP
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 29, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
To all the dickheads that continue to vomit out that hackneyed notion of “coulda-woulda-shoulda,” I hope your car breaks down on the way to work; and when you explain to your employer that you would have arrived to work on time had your car been working properly, I hope he says “coulda-woulda-shoulda” and fires your ass.
A legacy can be more than a record
Some would claim titles matter more (like this shamed Buffalo Bills fan), but the fact that BJ looked to really challenge himself out of his class counts for damn sure.
"Nothing's ever what it seems. And even if it is, ends justify means." -Matt Good
Nah Couture's defining fights are
1. Vitor Belfort at UFC 15 (win)
2. Maurice Smith at UFC Ultimate Japan (win)
3. Kevin Randleman at UFC 28 (win)
4. Pedro Rizzo at UFC 31 (win)
5. Pedro Rizzo at UFC 34 (win)
6. Josh Barnett at UFC 36 (loss)
7. Chuck Liddell at UFC 43 (win)
8. Tito Ortiz at UFC 44 (win)
9. Vitor Belfort at UFC 49 (win)
10. Chuck Liddell at UFC 52 (loss)
11. Chuck Liddell at UFC 57 (loss/retired)
12. Tim Sylvia at UFC 68 (win)
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 3:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Not to be a dick...
but the losses to Lesnar and Nog deserve to be on there.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
sorry hit post too soon
13. Brock Lesnar at UFC 91 (loss)
14. Big Nog at UFC 102 (loss)
I still see 9-5 in the defining moments fights.
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 3:19 AM EDT up reply actions
49 seconds in when the Belfort’s glove cut Randy’s eyelid. That isn’t a defining loss.
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 3:19 AM EDT up reply actions
I know
i’m just saying that shouldn’t be part of the list.
it wasn't part of the list.
The rematch was. Just as you wouldn’t say Nog/Fedor 2 is a career defining moment for either fighter as it was ruled a no contest 4 minutes in due to accidental headbutt.
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 3:23 AM EDT up reply actions
he fought Vitor 3 times.
UFC15 (win) this is arguably the most important fight of Randy’s career. Vitor
UFC46 (loss due to cut)
UFC49 (win)
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 3:27 AM EDT up reply actions
did it again
Vitor at UFC 15 was considered the next great fighter. He would carry the UFC flag as he was a young, good looking, fighter who won the UFC12 Heavy Weight tournament and absolutely destroyed Tank Abbott who was seen as an absolute world beater. Randy was able to make Vitor look silly and dominated him for 8 full minutes which was twice as long as Vitor’s ring time in his four fights leading up to Couture.
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 3:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh my bad
I completely forgot the first fight.
No worries, if you get a chance, watch it. As I said, it’s his most important fight in my opinion.
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 3:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Honestly...
the names on that list should in no way be shameful to lose to.
Acting as if those losses make you some sort of overrated shell is ridiculous.
Perhaps, just perhaps Penn isn’t the greatest ever, but does he have to be? Is the only other choice to be overrated?
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
When the consensus is you're the greatest
Then you’re overrated when you’re shown not to be.
Overrated doesn’t mean bad. Overrated means not being as good as people think you are.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
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Who knows? It’s been a “real” full time division for three years. Not enough time. Clearly the answer will not be BJ Penn.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 3:13 AM EDT up reply actions
So clearly,
the answer, at this point in time, even if he lost against Edgar, he is still the best lightweight ever….
It’s possible that someone could eclipse Fedor’s accomplishments in the future, but even after he lost to werdum, even if he’s not ranked at number 1 anymore… at this point in time, he is still the best heavyweight ever… Same with BJ Penn.
by Anton Tabuena on Aug 29, 2010 3:18 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Heavyweights have 17 years of history. Lightweights have three years as a full time UFC division. Maybe 5 years total in the UFC. It’s not the same. This is more like asking who the best is at 145 and 135. We’re working on it.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 3:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Are you forgetting that
he’s only lost to two people in the lightweight division and more than half of his losses are from heavier weight classes?
I don’t think this matters much. The fact he couldn’t discipline himself to a diet and workout routine doesn’t give him a pass. That’s not a good thing.
Some fights he may have taken for money. A loss is a loss. I agree 11-3-1 is a very good record at lightweight. But he didn’t compete at lightweight for a good portion of his career. We judge what the man did, not what he might have done.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 3:39 AM EDT up reply actions
No, you judge based on some numbers that stand void of any and all nuance. “We” judge on whatever we find appropriate.
by PORkSOdA on Aug 29, 2010 3:43 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Don't mistake you for we
He’s accomplished things most fighters will never even compare to. The only fighters he lost to were those who are other greats of the sport, sans Pulver and maybe Edgar.
by av1o3 on Aug 29, 2010 3:50 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Pulver is a great..
and Edgar appears to only be starting to write his story…but even then he has an extremely impressive record going.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
Obviously Urijah Faber should be listed as the greatest FW of all time now, as opposed to letting the division flesh itself out.
by Zapp Brannigan on Aug 29, 2010 3:54 AM EDT up reply actions
I think it's muddy
It’s probably still Penn, but you know there were times when he was touted as one of the top 3 fighters in the world, times when he was touted as being unstoppable, and it seems every time his career was about to reach some kind of fever pitch, BJ Penn lost.
I’m not trying to throw the guy under the bus, I just think Snowden has it right in his assessment of BJ’s career. He’s a fighter that never achieved that special level of success that fighters like Fedor or GSP has.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
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there were times when he was touted as one of the top 3 fighters in the world
You mean like the time he beat two other fighters that were in that conversation (Hughes / Gomi) in back to back fights. That is crazy talk!
by truck on Aug 29, 2010 3:19 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
This is a much better and appropriate assessment of Penn and his career than the article. The article itself is poorly timed, and is far from objective. I am a Penn fan, and I have been disappointed plenty of times throughout his career. He is definitely missing the “Heart of a Champion” factor. He is still one of the best mixed martial artists we’ve witnessed. Overrated is reaching, he is as good (potentially) as “everyone” says he is. Sadly he just doesn’t always show it.
by Benjamin Smart on Aug 29, 2010 5:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree (and I find it somewhat odd to be defending BJ), but
If BJ had simply stayed at LW his entire career, he would be looked at much as GSP, Anderson & Fedor are…
Great fighters who dominated their divisions within their organizations, but never sought to truly challenge themselves by fighting the best at other weight classes or in other orgs…
Replace BJ’s 1-4 record against Hughes, GSP and Machida with 5 wins against top-5 LWs and a different picture emerges…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 29, 2010 10:33 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Snowden wasn't saying that...
he wasn’t saying Penn is overrated in terms of the conversation of “who is the greatest”, he was blanket statement calling Penn overrated, which is weak.
Compare BJ to, lets say…Matt Hughes (since Snowden used him), can you really say BJ’s record is somehow worse?
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
So losses to...
Hallman and Landi-Jons are not more damning that the ones that BJ has?
BTW, I can’t believe I am on the side of defending BJ…
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
Um, Landi Jons was an awesome fighter. Hughes rose to the occasion. When the title was on the line, the spotlight was on, he established himself as the man.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 3:24 AM EDT up reply actions
However,...
since we are mixing historical context with current status to form some sort of shit pie, Landi-Jon beating Hughes should be the foundation of his treatment as an illusion of a champion.
Two of the biggest problems with MMA “analysis” is the mixing of who a guy was when a fight took place with who they are now as well as the attempt to create historical context the minute something happens.
This article, to a point, plays fast and loose with both sins.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
by Razreshat on Aug 29, 2010 3:28 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Not really at all. This fight tonight was one of many in a pattern that defines Penn’s career. This is a cumulative look at his legacy, not really an analysis of tonight’s fight at all.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 3:47 AM EDT up reply actions
cause he's not wrong?
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 3:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I am conversing. If you don’t like it I don’t really care.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 3:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Have you read what I wrote? A record doesn’t exist in a vacuum. It’s a document of what he’s done in his career. And more often than not, when competing for a title, he’s failed to come out on top. That’s a fact.
No one is denying Penn is a and was a great fighter. He’s wowed us with his raw ability. But it’s that ability that made people quick to proclaim him one of the best ever. Unfortunately, his performance hasn’t lived up to his talent. We know this because he has lost in the biggest fights of his career. Again and again.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 4:03 AM EDT up reply actions
“No one is denying Penn is a and was a great fighter. He’s wowed us with his raw ability. But it’s that ability that made people quick to proclaim him one of the best ever.”
Yes… the fact that he is one of the best ever makes him one of the best ever. What else is there? That is exactly my point. You treat the w/l record like it is some sort of canon that we should all live by and base our lives according to. Here in the comment section you have to be actually provoked to admit that BJ Penn is a great fighter instead of “Overrated? Facts point to: yes.” like the magic 8 ball of mma. Why not just be honest? Why not write an honest article? You know as well as I do he was one of the best ever.
Wow
I would normally say something mean about how much your defending bj and nut hugging him, but I just feel bad. Snowden made a statement you disagreed with it he explained why he thinks that and all I hear from you is
Wrong
Wrong
Wrong
"Don't be scared homie!" Mayhem Miller
by We All Hate Caleb on Aug 29, 2010 7:55 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
In this case...
Snowden is Edgar and you, being Penn, have got nothing for him.
Give it up.
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by Applejack McNeil on Aug 29, 2010 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think it's good you're conversing
But this article is gleeful revisionism of the worst sort.
If we all keep instantly diminishing fighters previous achievements due to a loss, all fighters will eventually be deemed shitty unless they retire young and undefeated.
You’re a horribly biased writer but you are a magnificent troll; your articles always have 500+ comments, and on that merit, I salute you sir.
Jon Jones LHW Champion 2011
Agreed, and though I got flamed for pointing this out before, but
BJ, much like Fedor, evolved well ahead of the curve, but then reached a point and stopped.
The BJ that fought GSP was the exact same guy both times, whereas GSP had greatly evolved as a professional fighter.
Evolving as a professional MMA fighter doesn’t only mean adding new fighting techniques, but adding essential elements like cross-training, diet/nutrition, strength/conditioning, truly breaking down tape of oneself as well as opponents, adding/subtracting specific elements for specific fighters as part of overall game plan design and implementation and the like.
Its not just perfecting your same techniques over and over and bringing the same plan to every fight.
What worked in 2005 doesn’t work in 2010.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 29, 2010 10:50 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
So Pele is “awesome”, but BJ Penn is “overrated”?
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Penn, when considered an all time great, fails to live up to that standard. That’s what overrated means. That doesn’t mean he isn’t awesomer than Pele.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 4:17 AM EDT up reply actions
If you were to list the top 10 fighters of the last 10 years...
accross all the weight divisions…
Would BJ make your list?
No, I don’t think so. I would have to think about it for a bit, but I don’t see how.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 4:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Obvious candidates would be:
Fedor
Big Nog
Cro Cop
Couture
Liddell
Shogun
Wanderlei
A Silva
GSP
Hughes
Gomi
Penn
I am sure I am missing a bunch…
Based on the Snowden criteria...
Nog is definitely out. Let that sit in your collective craws.
Good arguments against Hughes, CroCop, Liddell, Gomi, Shogun and one is beggining to form against Wandy.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
There are good arguments against Shogun??
"I talked about retirement a little bit, but told them I'd be the same ol' grumpy, pissed off guy." --Bobby Cox
by Anthony Pace on Aug 29, 2010 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
the Coleman loss was a fluke, IMO
I don’t think he “lost” to Machida. The Griffin one and the Babalu one are his two legitimate losses, to me. Neither is one to be ashamed of.
"I talked about retirement a little bit, but told them I'd be the same ol' grumpy, pissed off guy." --Bobby Cox
by Anthony Pace on Aug 29, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I am not arguing, just guessing
I don’t think he "lost" to Machida.
FWIW, lots of people say the same about:
Penn / Edgar I
Penn / GSP I
Penn / Pulver I
Penn / Machida
Just because a guy loses does not mean he’s no longer an all time great. If BJ Penn was an all time great Saturday morning, he’s still an all time great come Sunday morning, regardless of whether or not he won or lost. Randy Couture didn’t cease being an all time great because he lost to Brock Lesnar and Minotauro Nogueira. Chuck Liddell didn’t stop being an all time great when he went got old overnight and started losing to everyone who could land a punch on his jaw. BJ Penn doesn’t suddenly stop being one of the best fighters to ever lace up the gloves in the history of the sport simply because he lost to Frankie Edgar twice. If Anderson Silva goes out and loses to Chael Sonnen in his next fight and then gets decapitated by Vitor Belfort after that, no sane person will be running around claiming he was over rated and never an all time great.
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by Brian Mayes on Aug 29, 2010 4:26 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
BJ never was an all time great. That’s the premise here. He has a consistent pattern of losing the big one. This is just another in a line of fights that prevent him from being one of the best ever.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 4:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Random unrelated question...
Is Frankie the underdog against Maynard?
I can’t remember a champ being the underdog in back to back title defenses…
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by Brian Mayes on Aug 29, 2010 4:42 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Can we agree to call BJ an all-time great at LW
If you’re not going to consider him an all-time great P4P?
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
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by BigDNotDallas on Aug 29, 2010 11:01 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
why aren’t wins over stevenson to win the title, and wins over florian, sherk, and sanchez to defend the titles “defining fights?” Or his win over Hughes to win the welterweight strap? who gave you permission to arbitrarily decide BJ’s defining moments?
"I want to tell me what you see, let's go ahead and see by the fight what you saw, in the ring"
by crinow on Aug 29, 2010 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Uh
cause it doesn’t enforce his opinion.
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
I think the Hughes fight and the Sherk fight are defining moments. Sanchez was just a defense against a guy with next to no lightweight experience.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
OK....
Three of the fights you listed are in a higher weight class. Like someone said, lets take GSP and even a prime Matt Hughes and send them up against the top middleweights. Without that happening, you can’t compare the records of BJ and GSP/Hughes. Pulver, yes, he faded in that fight. But let’s not forget BJ demolishing Uno in there other fight, losing a SPLIT decision in the GSP fight, and dominating Hughes untill a rib injury, wich he was clearly not the same fighter in that fight after that. BJ is not overrated and I still call him one of the all time greats.
"You hear people say, 'You're the greatest,' and all this stuff. It's BS. It's fake, it's all fake. You've just got to keep training as hard as you can. The only thing real is the fight, everything else is fake." - BJ Penn
It's pretty simple
Whenever he has the chance to take the step towards greatness he comes up short. He isn’t mentally tough and is a diva (full circle snowden lol). Other fighters who have risen above are considered the greats. He’ll be known as a fighter with a ton of potential who never put in the effort to be dominant.
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 2:59 AM EDT up reply actions
I have never been a BJ fan, but...
Whenever he has the chance to take the step towards greatness he comes up short.
Beating Hughes was a step towards greatness.
Beating Gomi in his next fight was another.
Being one of only two fighters to win a title in two different weight classes was another step.
I don’t know how many steps it take to get to greatness, but he has taken a few big ones.
by truck on Aug 29, 2010 3:40 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
"He’s been back at lightweight since mid 2007. He’s 6-2 in that span in the division."
…and what was his LW record between 2001 and 2009?
How many unavenged losses did he have in that span despite taking on top competitors?
Why don’t those 8 years matter?
This story and comments that'll be posted
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 2:52 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
damn
great minds dude.
"Jesus, did somebody dip a baby in jalepenos?" - My Girlfriend
by Earl Montclair on Aug 29, 2010 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Massive Shitstorm Forthcoming
"Jesus, did somebody dip a baby in jalepenos?" - My Girlfriend
by Earl Montclair on Aug 29, 2010 2:52 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Seriously. Lol
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Twitter Handle = @xFenixKnightx
by xFenixKnightx on Aug 29, 2010 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Manhandled by a fighter most experts consider too small for the lightweight division
These same experts probably picked BJ to win decisively in the rematch. Shows how much they know, right?
by TyTy on Aug 29, 2010 2:53 AM EDT reply actions 6 recs
How many of them also...
say Fedor is too small for HW…or that Machida would rule LHW, etc…MMA as a sport is far too young to have “experts”, at least the kind who take time to make comments on fighters being two small for their weight class.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
Jonathan Snowden: Penn says he may not have trained harder for the rematch, but he rested harder. I don’t know what that means, but I hope it doesn’t mean another five rounds of Edgar’s hyper bouncing around. Penn by submission, Round 3.
In a little more than a 24 hour span, we went from hearing that to reading this “article”. That should tell you all you need to know about Snowden.
by CaliforniaCreamPuff on Aug 29, 2010 3:05 AM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
What, that I predicted Penn to win? He’s a great fighter. He’s supposed to win. He didn’t and doesn’t.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 3:15 AM EDT up reply actions
So great, but also overrated...
…right….
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
These things are not the opposites you seem to think they are. BJ is a great fighter. BJ is not an alltime legend.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 3:17 AM EDT up reply actions
"BJ is not an alltime legend."
Ask around, I’m betting he is…for many reasons, some of which you and I might not like. But to argue that he isn’t a legend is hard validate.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
Fran Tarketon is a great QB. Joe Montans is a legend.
by John Nash on Aug 29, 2010 3:21 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You may not agree with the general consensus concerning his dominance, but fortunately for the fighters, that’s not something you get to decide.
You can tear BJ down by pointing to his ‘pedestrian record’, and support your position by claiming those losses to be his only defining moments.
At the end of the day you have neglected to speak to either the quality of his wins, or to entertain the fact that perhaps others define his career by different metrics.
BJ Penn has failed YOU – he has lost the fights that YOU deem most important. To post his record and decree his fall from grace (or lack of ascent in the first place) based on such abstract arguments is disingenuous at best and feels petty.
Penn got worked over tonight no doubt, but with his wins over Florian and Sanchez still fresh in my mind I can’t call him overrated.
by HelpItWithFire on Aug 29, 2010 3:32 AM EDT up reply actions 13 recs
Actually, I kind of do get to help to decide.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 3:46 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Your name
Jonathan “The Straw That Stirs the Shit” Snowden. You are the pretty much the Skip Bayless of MMA.
That said, I pretty much have to agree with this one.
by Wonderlic on Aug 29, 2010 2:54 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Heh, I liked how Rogan was calling out BJ’s yes men for what they were telling him in between rds. BJ bought in to his own hype.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Twitter Handle = @xFenixKnightx
by xFenixKnightx on Aug 29, 2010 2:56 AM EDT reply actions 9 recs
Word to this. Gald that you pointed it out. BJ is surrounded by yes men. Great when you own your own strip club perhaps but when you are rematching the UFC lw belt you have to be pushed…BJ has never been pushed to be champion. He’s all talent and talent only gets you so far….and when you’re 31 shit starts slowing down.
He’s like the badass NFL talent that doesnt work hard enough to have a 12 yr career even though all the tools are there.
Dued needs to go back to Marinovich and can his lame brother that gives him the crappiest advice in between round.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Twitter Handle = @xFenixKnightx
by xFenixKnightx on Aug 29, 2010 3:05 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Si
I was let down when I heard he left “No happy meals” Marinovich,
That guy pushed BJ to the top of his ability to the point Dana was thanking him. He looked pudgy (as usual) compared to his apex which was the Diego fight where the nutty ass Maronivich’s were pushing him.
I know shit about shit but hire me BJ, because I wouldn’t have said you had a sweet ass in between rounds, I would’ve told you that you losing your ass and to go for takedowns, top control, go for fuggin broke becuase you were losing sir, get at it. FRUSTRATING to see him fight that fight.
down on bj much holy crap did you lose money on his last to fights. he has still had and defended the lw belt more than anyone. im not a bj fan or hater but what hes done cant be denied oh yeah he was ww champ to.
Can't agree...
I can’t help but think MMA fans are a fickle bunch. More often than not, people were treating BJ like the god of the lightweight division. They ooed and ahed at his demolition of Diego Sanchez, and his submission over Kenflo, not to mention his destruction of Stevenson and Sherk. I agree you’re only as good as your last fight, but when BJ is supposed to fight at LW and he’s only lost to two men there, he is certainly not overrated in that division.
by RobSchneider'sSuccessfulTwin on Aug 29, 2010 2:59 AM EDT reply actions
All fans of anything, really. Lol
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Twitter Handle = @xFenixKnightx
by xFenixKnightx on Aug 29, 2010 3:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Shit COME ON MAN
“Anything” is SOOOOOOOOO overrated!!!! Complete loser that guy is!
"Jesus, did somebody dip a baby in jalepenos?" - My Girlfriend
by Earl Montclair on Aug 29, 2010 3:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Woah, step away from the redbull amigo. Lol
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Twitter Handle = @xFenixKnightx
by xFenixKnightx on Aug 29, 2010 3:06 AM EDT up reply actions
red bull is like tapping. Both are for bitches.
"Jesus, did somebody dip a baby in jalepenos?" - My Girlfriend
by Earl Montclair on Aug 29, 2010 3:06 AM EDT up reply actions
lol
I still wouldn’t say that to James Toney’s face, personally. :P
by RobSchneider'sSuccessfulTwin on Aug 29, 2010 3:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Why, I'm pretty sure I can pull a single leg...
with absolutely no training.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
yeah
Randy’s shot looked like he was going to help James tie his shoe.
"Jesus, did somebody dip a baby in jalepenos?" - My Girlfriend
by Earl Montclair on Aug 29, 2010 3:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I think he went so low...
Cause he didn’t want to take anything to chance. If he’d shot higher, there would’ve still been a small chance that Toney could get that one big, lucky shot. It was wise of him to go for the ankle.
by RobSchneider'sSuccessfulTwin on Aug 29, 2010 3:12 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah and it was brilliant
"Jesus, did somebody dip a baby in jalepenos?" - My Girlfriend
by Earl Montclair on Aug 29, 2010 3:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh snap! =P
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Twitter Handle = @xFenixKnightx
by xFenixKnightx on Aug 29, 2010 3:07 AM EDT up reply actions
LOL.
but seriously though, (and this isn’t directed to you per se) but if someone thinks BJ Penn is overrated and that if he’s not the best LW ever, then who is?
by Anton Tabuena on Aug 29, 2010 3:09 AM EDT up reply actions
apparently
it’s useless to discuss that because it’s too early to make such distinctions.
Hey Pete
R.I.P.
Overrated? No
He underestimated Edgar twice. Edgar came into the second fight motivated and ready to prove everyone wrong. He had more to lose. Before that he smashed everyone in his path.
Get rid of the ramp!
by ihateemo on Aug 29, 2010 3:06 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Why won’t Strikeforce listen to your sig? =(
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Twitter Handle = @xFenixKnightx
by xFenixKnightx on Aug 29, 2010 3:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, Vadim didn’t write his sig.
"Jesus, did somebody dip a baby in jalepenos?" - My Girlfriend
by Earl Montclair on Aug 29, 2010 3:09 AM EDT up reply actions
This is true. Must tweet M1.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Twitter Handle = @xFenixKnightx
by xFenixKnightx on Aug 29, 2010 3:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Because it's lost in a sea of comments
Like this :)
Get rid of the ramp!
by ihateemo on Aug 29, 2010 5:22 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
My next article: "IS KENNY FLORIAN DONE?"
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 29, 2010 3:10 AM EDT reply actions 5 recs
Is he?
LMAO! +1 I think I woke up my kids. =P
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Twitter Handle = @xFenixKnightx
by xFenixKnightx on Aug 29, 2010 3:11 AM EDT up reply actions
i wonder what it will be about..........
"Jesus, did somebody dip a baby in jalepenos?" - My Girlfriend
by Earl Montclair on Aug 29, 2010 3:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Wow
this piece was some negative bullshit. I’ll stick to editors that arent douchebags that trash fighters. MMA Fanhouse here I come.
nice to talk to ya
"Jesus, did somebody dip a baby in jalepenos?" - My Girlfriend
by Earl Montclair on Aug 29, 2010 3:13 AM EDT up reply actions
BJ is a great fighter. But the key to me is that many people who have rated him so highly for so long have rated him on his potential and his ability rather than his accomplishments. He is a great fighter and a danger to any LW in the world but losses are losses and people cant keep making excuses for him.
BJ’s gonna be mad when he wakes up and his brother reads this to him. And if that wasn’t enough, to throw salt into his open wounds Helwani just tweeted that he in fact DOESN’T LIKE BJ.
*BOOM
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Twitter Handle = @xFenixKnightx
Two years ago Urijah Faber and Miguel Torres were unbeatable.
Four months ago the best LW in the world lost (And tonight lost again).
A month after that, Lyoto Machida, a fighter destined to rule for a decade, got koed.
A month after that Fedor – Mothet Fucking FEDOR – tapped out.
Since then, both Brock and Anderson Silva looked pretty mortal. I don’t think anyone is calling them locks on their next fights.
The way things are going GSP is getting killed by Koscheck.
The lesson: they all suck.
by John Nash on Aug 29, 2010 3:18 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 14 recs
Forecasting...
Bantamweight constantly switching hands, Aldo staying on top for a LONG time, Maynard (unfortunately) beating Edgar, GSP reigning at least two more defenses, Anderson=same, Shogun losing to Rashad and Brock beating Cain and (unfortunately again) JDS. JDS has been my favorite HW challenger since he beat Werdum :(
by RobSchneider'sSuccessfulTwin on Aug 29, 2010 3:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Anderson beats Chael again? and Rashad beats Shogun? NO and NO. Plus Cain comes out on top in the later rounds over Brock and Cruz could easily keep kicking ass for a while.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Aug 29, 2010 3:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Well...
Anderson wanted to submit Chael for what he said. He won’t have that burden this time around. Rashad beats Shogun due to Shogun’s layoff rib injury (a la Forrest Griffin) and his wrestling. Cain and Brock are both wrestlers and wrestlers seldom gas. Brock is stronger and faster and should be able to dispose of Cain with a unanimous decision. Bantam is a guess. I don’t care for it too much but I notice it always has a changing of the guard.
by RobSchneider'sSuccessfulTwin on Aug 29, 2010 4:02 AM EDT up reply actions
oh come on, are you suggestion that Anderson had a choice of whether or not he would be on his prissy ass eating leather? He was on his back because he wanted the sub? He wanted the sub because that was his only path to victory. Shogun’s knee will be just fine and the MT buzz saw will be in full effect that night. Brock wont be able to outwork Cain for 25 minutes. Cain will eventually get the upper hand.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Aug 29, 2010 4:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Apologies, I thought it was his rib. So many injuries to keep up on. Anderson had the rib issue, that’s right. Well, Anderson won’t this time and will win decisively. I don’t think Shogun will be able to pull the trigger now that old Rashad is back, and there’s no reason Brock can’t outwork Cain for 25 minutes. Brock vs Cain is like the HW version of Hughes vs Gracie. Hughes was able to put Royce where he wanted cause he was WAAAY stronger than Royce was.
by RobSchneider'sSuccessfulTwin on Aug 29, 2010 4:13 AM EDT up reply actions
In any case...
This is getting way off topic and I don’t care much to debate for things that no one knows for sure, however I do believe in explaining one’s opinions. Once the threads for these fights start coming in, I’ll remember your name and gladly discuss the matter further :)
by RobSchneider'sSuccessfulTwin on Aug 29, 2010 4:20 AM EDT up reply actions
they're all overrated.
if you’re not invincible, you’re overrated.
by Anton Tabuena on Aug 29, 2010 3:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Now who is being reactionary? There are only a handful of all time greats. A guy who loses all his big fights and is 15-7-1 isn’t one of them. No matter how badly we all wanted him to be.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 3:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Who the fuck is considered an all time great then?
If 15-7-1 is too bad for that category then so is Couture’s 19-10 and Chuck Liddell’s 21-8.
Chuck Liddell has lost 5 of his last 6. BJ is supposed to be working on his legacy, not looking back at it.
by John Nash on Aug 29, 2010 3:34 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
GSP
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 4:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I still disagree with your original post.
but I was just kidding and being silly on this comment. I wasn’t serious at all. :)
and no, I don’t “want” BJ to be the Best LW ever, he just IS… you may say how the Division isn’t even mature enough, but the fact still stands that no lightweight even comes close.
by Anton Tabuena on Aug 29, 2010 3:30 AM EDT up reply actions
BJ is an all time great in the LW division
Maybe not an all time great in a representation of his whole career, but in a specific division, he is most definitely. WW was too heavy for him, and I don’t know what he was thinking fighting Lyoto. However, BJ is an all time great, if not THE all time great of LW.
by RobSchneider'sSuccessfulTwin on Aug 29, 2010 3:31 AM EDT up reply actions
No
if you ARE “invincible”, you’re over-rated. nobody is invincible.
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 4:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Speaking as someone who thought that Edgar would win this fight: this article sucked WAY WORSE than BJ’s performance. BJ is the prototypical 3rd gen fighter, that is what will put him in the record books as extraordinary, not that he (of course) got overcome by more advanced brethren of the same generation. Jonathan Snowden once again proves he is an idiot and should be writing MMA commentary.
By your logic
Crocop is overrated as well he hasn’t even held a heavyweight championship belt and blew it in big fights
yep
"Jesus, did somebody dip a baby in jalepenos?" - My Girlfriend
by Earl Montclair on Aug 29, 2010 3:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Cro Cop is probably overrated by some. You are right.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 3:26 AM EDT up reply actions
The body is still warm
and you’re dragging the corpse through the muddy streets.
Nice.
If there is a bigger cliche than a top fighter losing and then a writer piping up with “Overrated!”, I don’t know of it.
by Dootch on Aug 29, 2010 3:28 AM EDT reply actions 45 recs
Petition to be able to rec to infinity...please?
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
30 recs minimum
or im callin the cops
"Jesus, did somebody dip a baby in jalepenos?" - My Girlfriend
by Earl Montclair on Aug 29, 2010 3:33 AM EDT up reply actions
I dont care what Cam’ron says.
I’m tellin!
"Jesus, did somebody dip a baby in jalepenos?" - My Girlfriend
by Earl Montclair on Aug 29, 2010 3:35 AM EDT up reply actions
So, make the case that Penn’s career makes a strong argument to support his backers claim he is a giant of the sport….
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 3:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Gomi?
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 3:53 AM EDT up reply actions
And Gomi beat Pulver.
You’re too smart for MMAmath
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 3:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Yep...3 years and 5 fights later
Jens wasn’t the same fighter.
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 4:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Just to be a thorn in your side...
There was also 2 year, 7 fights and two KO losses separating the Pulver that beat Penn and the Pulver that beat Gomi
counter point:
Jens was entering his athletic prime at that time instead of leaving it. : )
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 4:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Counter Counter Point:
Poutine sucks
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 4:29 AM EDT up reply actions
USA! USA! USA! USA!
Sorry my drunk is turning into a hangover and I’m not happy about that.
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 4:33 AM EDT up reply actions
If the conversation is about who is a better fighter...
and you clearly beat the only other person who is in the conversation…
The conversation is over…
Nobody that I have talked to considers Pulver a candidate for the best LW discussion.
See what I'm saying is
Gomi beat Pulver who beat BJ who beat Gomi.
From 2001-2006 Gomi is the obvious choice as he went 27-3. BJ didn’t make his return to LW until 2007 and didn’t face top LW competition consistently like Gomi had.
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 4:24 AM EDT up reply actions
From 2001-2006 Gomi is the obvious choice as he went 27-3
Except BJ beat him in the middle off that run and a lot of people took that to mean BJ was better.
He was also beat by Joachim Hansen at the time
Who could also be considered #1
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 4:32 AM EDT up reply actions
I'll break it up okay
From 1998 to February 23rd 2003 Gomi was the top Light Weight. He was the top lightweight again from 2004-2006.
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 4:36 AM EDT up reply actions
The Penn-Pulver decision was and still is questionable.
Bolts from the Blue // "Sometimes you would get the sense that people felt bigger than the team," Gates said. "Not to say it was an issue, but we know it’s not an issue for sure now."
Bloody Elbow // "I'm not Dog the Bounty Hunter, I don't issue apologies. And you're not going to be the first one to get one out of me." - Chael Sonnen
by Richard Wade on Aug 29, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
That decision, plus
Penn / GSP I
Penn / Machida
Penn / Edgar I
were all very close.
Judges don’t like Penn
From 2004-2007 I can name plenty. Penn wasn’t a lightweight from 2001-2009. Maybe if he had been his career wouldn’t be defined mostly by failure. Before 2007 his lightweight career was notable for him not winning the title. That was the knock on him. It was part of the tv broadcasts for god’s sake.
Why single out “lightweight?” Penn hasn’t been a lightweight for much of his career.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 3:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Takanori Gomi
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 3:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Okay and he beat Jens Pulver who beat BJ when it actually meant something.
Instead of when BJ beat him. I can play this game literally all night.
Follow me on twitter @thisredengine
Also please check out SBnation's Red Bulls blog @ www.onceametro.com
by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 4:00 AM EDT up reply actions
See I like you and will enter discussion over fights
The rest of the retards are retards.
Follow me on twitter @thisredengine
Also please check out SBnation's Red Bulls blog @ www.onceametro.com
by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 4:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Rumble on the Rock
He’s referencing when the BJ/Gomi fight happened without actually making a case for his argument.
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 4:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Why bother? Every lightweight was a better lightweight than Penn when he spent three years eating and fighting all the way up the ladder to heavyweight.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 4:05 AM EDT up reply actions
That is fucking weak
just admit that you can’t think of any.
What do you mean? He wasn’t competing as a lightweight. How could he be the best lightweight in the world during that timeframe? You astound me.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 4:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Do you have proof that BJ couldn't fight at lightweight?
The only lightweight fight that would have been appealing was against Gomi who he already fought and beat. He moved up in weight because there was no appealing fights at 155, not because he couldn’t make weight.
BJ doesn’t like to cut weight, likes to eat, and would prefer not to cut. I know that from talking to people close to him, including BJ. It’s not really a secret.
I know BJ couldn’t fight at lightweight for years because he looked like Buddha.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 4:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh my fucking god. I had given you credit thinking you might have gone to sleep. Respond to me you asshole… The first rec’d post. Anything at all. You responded once being flippant and I gave you four replies that you didn’t respond to. Way to take the BJ is fat out.
We don’t do name calling here. Tone it back. Argue ideas.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 4:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Okay. I'll calmly ask
Who was the #1 LW at the time when Penn wasn’t around? Screw it pretend BJ Penn did not even exist and give me your #1 LW.
Toronto FC - Where road games are forfeited and we STILL have no idea how to play from behind.
I’ll tell you if I ever write about the lightweight division. This was about Penn’s career.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Appealing?
Champs and “the best” fight contenders. Not Duane Ludwig in Japan.
If you want to give opinions, here’s mine, he moved up because he failed twice to win the belt.
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 4:28 AM EDT up reply actions
He failed once
and then proceeded to win the welterweight belt from Hughes. He got kicked out of the UFC for fighting for another organization after winning the belt.
he drew with uno and lost to pulver
he violated his contract. He kicked himself out.
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 4:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Just because he decided not to fight at lightweight doesn’t mean you can arbitrarily argue he was the best lightweight on earth when he wasn’t and instead was fighting at middleweight. Why not just rank that Anderson Silva is the greatest light heavyweight of the last ten years based on the assumption that he could KO anyone who fought at the weight class over that period?
by VirtualBalboa on Aug 29, 2010 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Name them then
Penn didn’t fight as lightweight for two years meaning a majority of his fights from 2001-2009 were at lightweight. In those two years the only dominant lightweight I could think of was Takanori Gomi and Sean Sherk and BJs beaten both of them in dominant fashion.
Edgar beat Sherk and BJ Penn. Does that mean he’s the greatest lightweight of all time?
by VirtualBalboa on Aug 29, 2010 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions
a bigger cliche
Is tarring something with the ‘cliche’ brush instead of engaging its terms coming up with an actual argument against it.
And a bigger cliche
is calling a cliche-caller cliche, because it’s easy.
See how long we can go?
by Dootch on Aug 29, 2010 4:16 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
it's more about Edgar
rising to an elite level, and BJ really needing to come to a fight with more tools than just boxing and TDD. BJ is a front runner, I think so too, but he was damn good at it.
For some reason, this artical dosnt bother me at all.
"Everyone has a game plan, untell they get hit." -Mike Tyson
Incredible talent. Great physical tools. Terrible IQ. Questionable heart.
BJ makes no adjustments. He stood with Frankie for 35 freaking minutes hoping to land a big counterpunch and failing. FINALLY he adjusts and goes for a couple of takedowns but basically gives up when Frankie escapes. He also gave up in GSP II. By the standard of heart alone he should not be considered one of the greats. Supremely talented, yes. All-time great ? No. If he’s not actually an all-time great then Snowden has to be right, because he has been ‘rated’ in that pantheon for a long time.
Not sure if even standing waiting for Bruce to get done with his announcement equaled 35 minutes :)
by RobSchneider'sSuccessfulTwin on Aug 29, 2010 3:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I kid I kid I joke with you! :D
by RobSchneider'sSuccessfulTwin on Aug 29, 2010 3:41 AM EDT up reply actions
LW Division is done.
Edgar – Maynard = epitome of “nobody gives a f***.”
if Maynard wins, the division will not draw at all. Lay & Pray for the loss…
To the contrary – we might actually see some life in LW division again. Dynasties are awesome, but they also hurt the division.
You don't like wrestling in MMA? Go watch K-1.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Aug 29, 2010 3:42 AM EDT up reply actions
No, b/c...
Gray Maynard is a boring, sloppy fighter with little technique. He muscles his way to decisions. Kenny thinks too damn much, and BJ has no passion. That now means the best LWs are outside the UFC.
lol at little technique
go train sometime, keyboard warrior. youd understand it better
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 4:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Haha, alright bro...
I wrestled through college and trained boxing through the same time. Gray can wrestle, but has sloppy boxing and nothing else. One dimensional, but strong. Maybe it works, but the division is still f***ed.
a slight change of tune
gray CAN wrestle now. And, he’s outboxed most of his opponents. And, he trains at XCOuture. And hes a PROFESSIONAL fighter. And he beat the current champ decisively. And he’s number one contender.
Hype brings respect: BJ Penn
Skills don’t bring respect: Maynard and Edgar
Both of them are extremely skilled. Fact.
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 4:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Whoa now...
Penn pisses me off more than anyone, b/c he doesn’t live up to his abilities.
And I like Edgar a lot, great foot work and wrestling skill, better boxer than most in MMA, but I worry for him b/c he’s just not that strong. You can beat BJ without overpowering him, I don’t know about many others though. I hope Frankie can cope with that. He adjusted to Sean Sherk, but Sherk has gotten away from his bread-and-butter wrestling for some time now…
where are these abilities?
ive never seen them because he never lives up to them.
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 4:29 AM EDT up reply actions
C'mon...
that’s a little harsh. He demolished Kenny, Diego, Sherk, Stevenson, Pulver and legitimately beat a prime Hughes, Renzo and Duane Ludwig.
so
bj does or does not live up to his abilities?
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 5:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Not against Edgar or the first Pulver fight..
But for the most part, I’ll say yes. I think GSP is just too strong and too good of a wrestler.
youre saying
he lost both edgar fights because he didnt live up to his abilities?
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 5:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Sherk
couldnt even make MSU wrestling. He never even wrestled in college. Naturally, All-American Edgar outwrestled him.
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 4:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Touche...
…Sherk was the standard-bearer for MMA wrestling for a minute, though (GSP is probably it now). But my point was more that he was just a strong-ass dude, kind of like the precursor to Maynard, but more fanfare. But he got away from that.
No. He’s boxed against opponents he couldnt take down.
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 4:40 AM EDT up reply actions
IDK, I think Sherk has more recently fallen in love with stand-up than sticking to what worked for him in the past. I don’t think it’s that he couldn’t take them down, I think he just hasn’t recently tried as much to out-wrestle his opponents. But he might be up there in miles on his body, so maybe you’re right and he just can’t do it anymore. BUT, I don’t think that was the case against BJ.
thats
a very romantic notion you have there.
which other opponents?
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 5:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Who, Sherk?
Well, I’d say his last three or four opponents, including Penn, as far as getting away from the wrestling.
he tried and failed
to control griffin and edgar.
difference is, he only tried once against penn.
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 5:30 AM EDT up reply actions
no need
i watched them. im telling you.
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 5:35 AM EDT up reply actions
And for the record...
I will always be skeptical of Michigan St. wrestling products, including Grand and Rashad. Its just not that great of a program.
irrelevant
completely irrelevant.
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 4:17 AM EDT up reply actions
lol
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 4:24 AM EDT up reply actions
I for one am interested in the truth to be told in Maynard – Edgar II. Frankie has obviously improved greatly. Will it be enough? Will we learn something new about Maynard when we get to see him work for 5 rounds against someone who can push him? Gray is an amazing, technical wrestler. Edgar has proven himself to be a masterful tactician on the feet and intelligent and capable on the ground as well.
Great fight
But Maynard takes it, imo. His boxing is a little better and he has the trump card: strength.
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 4:23 AM EDT up reply actions
What I find interesting is that when the next rankings come out Gilbert Melendez, Shinya Aoki, and Eddie Alvarez might all be top 5 with Gil probably moving up to 2. If Maynard beats Edgar does Gilbert become #1?
by John Nash on Aug 29, 2010 3:43 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Gray has to jump to #4 with the win over Florian. The Maynard/Edgar fight is still for #1 in my opinion. Eddie’s high ranking boggles my mind to be honest.
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 4:08 AM EDT up reply actions
What if Alvarez crushes Huerta? Does that change anything?
by John Nash on Aug 29, 2010 4:20 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
In my personal opinion no
I never had him ranked in the top 20. It’s like the win over Neer: solid win, but doesn’t do anything to improve ranking. Eddie had a solid run in DREAM with wins over Dida, Hansen, and Kawajiri but his last relevant fight in the past 2 years was against Kikuno in 2009. I think Bellator’s schedule has hurt Eddie. If he has the chance to fight Melendez like it’s been rumored, I’ll rank him in the top 5 depending on the outcome.
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
The same Huerta...
Whose biggest win is Clay Guida some drunk on 6th Street?
Who just let to Pat Curran??
Contributor, NorthTexasFisticuffs.com
Follow me on Twitter
by Applejack McNeil on Aug 29, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
That's the craziest fucking thing I've ever heard.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
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by Derek Suboticki on Aug 29, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
No. Maynard becomes #1.
Bolts from the Blue // "Sometimes you would get the sense that people felt bigger than the team," Gates said. "Not to say it was an issue, but we know it’s not an issue for sure now."
Bloody Elbow // "I'm not Dog the Bounty Hunter, I don't issue apologies. And you're not going to be the first one to get one out of me." - Chael Sonnen
by Richard Wade on Aug 29, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I can’t believe opinion pieces like this make the front page.
This is self-indulgent drivel. Plain and simple. I’d even say it sounds like someone lost some money tonight so they decided to complain about it.
Ok Mr. Snowden – Define overrated, in fact define underrated, and properly-rated while you’re at it too please. Then show me the general consensus on the title fights you chose (his losses) being the most important ones. Oh and don’t forget to ignore ANY positive qualitative aspects of his wins while you are proving how he is overrated using your facts.
I understand that this is an editorial, and it represents your opinion, however as per usual you are not merely stating your opinion but you are diminishing the accomplishments of another person to add fuel to your generous reservoir of hot air. Articles like this are crap and don’t belong on the front page of any credible website.
You could say the same thing without taking a crap on a good fighter. It would hold more water and wouldn’t make BE look as amateur.
by HelpItWithFire on Aug 29, 2010 3:48 AM EDT reply actions 12 recs
One thing I will disagree with
I think that one of BJ’s defining fights is against Din Thomas. Din was considered the odds on favorite going into that fight. BJ demolished him. And not including Caol Uno 1 is also pretty one sided as these two fights are what lead to the “unstoppable” title he had going into Pulver.
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those fights happened so long ago
they’re no longer relevant.
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 3:58 AM EDT up reply actions
maybe you don't read well
Career defining moments mean defining moments of one’s career. It doesn’t matter when, just the context in which they happened.
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 4:03 AM EDT up reply actions
i meant
they didnt mean much coming into this fight.
Plus, Din Thomas and Uno, never champ. You’re right, that’s how the unstoppable reputation started, though. A shaky foundation from the start.
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 4:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Uno was a Shooto Champ with two wins over Rumina Sato, a big victory over Din Thomas, Dennis Hallman (coming off the first hughes win) and Din had two big wins, one over Mishima and the other was over Jens Pulver. They were both consensus top 5 LWs at the time and BJ absolutely murc’d them.
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 4:18 AM EDT up reply actions
that was then this is now
legacy’s span CAREERS. Title fights are especially CAREER-defining. Neither of those fights rank amongst the biggest in his career.
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 4:21 AM EDT up reply actions
My point is I disagree with Jon over the definition of career defining
Title fights aren’t the only defining moments of careers.
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Also please check out SBnation's Red Bulls blog @ www.onceametro.com
by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 4:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Theyre not the only
Theyre the most relevant
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 4:31 AM EDT up reply actions
would you consider Couture's first fight with Vitor Belfort career defining?
No title on the line.
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Also please check out SBnation's Red Bulls blog @ www.onceametro.com
by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 4:35 AM EDT up reply actions
which is more career-defining
non-title or title fights?
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 5:09 AM EDT up reply actions
no
ULTIMATELY, a title fight against a top-guy is the most career-defining.
doesn’t matter anyway; he said uno and thomas were top guys.
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 5:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Since I brought up Couture/Belfort 1 I'll copy paste what I said above and why it's defining
Vitor at UFC 15 was considered the next great fighter. He would carry the UFC flag as he was a young, good looking, fighter who won the UFC12 Heavy Weight tournament and absolutely destroyed Tank Abbott who was seen as an absolute world beater. Randy was able to make Vitor look silly and dominated him for 8 full minutes which was twice as long as Vitor’s ring time in his four fights leading up to Couture.
There was no title on the line but in my opinion this is the first time we saw Couture become the underdog that always finds a way to win.
The premise of Snowden’s article is that unlike Couture, BJ doesn’t rise to the occasion. When he gets pushed he folds, he doesn’t push back. I’d agree with that statement. He doesn’t have the mental fortitude to find a way to win if he’s down.
I’d also argue that one of Fedor’s defining moments was his fight with Heath Herring. At the time Herring was a consensus top 5 HW and everyone expected him to beat a unknown pudgy Russian. That was when Fedor popped up on everyone’s map.
Follow me on twitter @thisredengine
Also please check out SBnation's Red Bulls blog @ www.onceametro.com
by Matthew Roth on Aug 29, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
it's cool
you dont have to answer.
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 30, 2010 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions
perhaps not the best example...
When we look back on Jon Jones’ career years from now, will the Vera fight be listed among career definers? Hammil? Howsabout Bonnar? Stephen was and is soooooooooooo far removed from the title picture that I don’t believe he was ranked in the top 40 of that weight class at the time of that fight.
Or am i thinking this way only because Bones hasn’t fought for a title yet.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Aug 29, 2010 5:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Right on
and if you think Edgar’s first win looked flukish, watch Penn/Hughes I.
Decisions, by nature, are less flukish.
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 3:57 AM EDT reply actions
what if you just think it was a bad decision?
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Aug 29, 2010 3:59 AM EDT up reply actions
then
if you’re lucky, you get an immediate rematch. And that decides it DEFINITIVELY.
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 4:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Is it easy to kick someone when they are down? Facts point to yes.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Aug 29, 2010 3:57 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Is it easier to hear more bitching in a post-UFC Jon Snowden comment section than it is to wake your wife up at 3 AM to make you a sammich? Facts point to yes.
Twitter me @kkelchner621
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by Kaleb Kelchner on Aug 29, 2010 4:23 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
lololol
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 4:26 AM EDT up reply actions
It's almost as if
he makes galling, inflammatory and emotional postings on purpose….
WAIT A SECOND!!!
This one isn’t even that bad. Somewhere along the way people brought up “best lightweight ever” which is irrelevant as fuck because this isn’t about “best ever’s”…fact is, no one at lightweight has been as good as BJ, but he’ll likely be surpassed in the next two or three years in terms of accomplishments in MMA. As it stands, BJ Penn was overrated when people were putting him at P4P…but rankings are idiotic as it stands, because you wouldn’t REALLY know who the best at that time was unless everyone fought everyone at 100% health, all at once.
Fact is, people thought BJ would reign at LW for a long time, but he didn’t, and a lot of people did overrate him in some regards. I see what Snowden did here…he fucked with the Penn fans…I can see their wadded up panties through my sunglasses at night, and he just pissed all over them. This is hilarious.
Twitter me @kkelchner621
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by Kaleb Kelchner on Aug 29, 2010 4:34 AM EDT up reply actions
I see all those points
but I don’t even like BJ, and I thought it was a curb kick on an easy target.
i could care less about "bestest evar" and p4p bullshit
what ticks me off is trying to write off his accomplishments. Saying that a win over sherk or pulver is nothing special. what the fuck.
THREE MUSKATEERS BAR P4P BEST HALLOWEEN CANDY
by BloodbathAndBeyond on Aug 29, 2010 4:49 AM EDT up reply actions
The Pulver win is nothing special – he did what Jason Maxwell, Joe Lauzon, and Duane Ludwig had all accomplished where he initially failed, and did so well after most of them had already knocked Pulver down appreciably in the lightweight picture. Pulver wasn’t the UFC lightweight champion anymore. He wasn’t a top ten lightweight. He wasn’t even a top 20 lightweight. He did exactly what he was expected to do, and nothing more. Its like crediting Randy Couture with big wins over Mark Coleman or James Toney. Mark had more success at 205 in the last 2-3 years than Pulver did at lightweight in the runup to the Penn fight.
Sherk? Well, Sherk is a good fighter. He was given a belt that he basically did nothing to validate, because during his whole reign as champ, he was never ever considered the top lightweight in the world. He returned after getting popped for steroids and lost to Penn. Then Edgar beat him too. So, basically, Frankie Edgar has BJ Penn’s best lightweight win. He also beat Penn. Twice. If Penn is as great as people argue he was, isn’t Edgar at this stage the greatest lightweight the UFC has ever seen? He has the Tyson Griffin and Hermes Franca (Sherk’s only title defense) wins too.
by VirtualBalboa on Aug 29, 2010 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions
its more of the fact that if you were to list the 3 best lightweights ever
in the history of this 20-year old sport, BJ Penn is still at the top of the list. His 8+ year run through everyone save a young Pulver is still one hell of an accomplishment. Snowden is either trolling us or has forgotten the book on history he helped write.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Aug 29, 2010 5:51 AM EDT up reply actions
What eight year run? He stopped fighting at lightweight for years.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 29, 2010 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
THATS WAT I BEEN SAYING FOR YEARS
finally someone exposed the truth, Penn Overrated nuff said.
Sonnen Hows the McDonald's Black belt ?
Man, seriously?
THREE MUSKATEERS BAR P4P BEST HALLOWEEN CANDY
by BloodbathAndBeyond on Aug 29, 2010 4:39 AM EDT reply actions
Here's the thing, John. I get it
You make interesting points, a lot of his defining moments were losses. Probably the majority.
But you do the typical snowden thing by layering your point with extremely skewed viewpoints.
Hindsight is 20/20. We can look now and say Sean Sherk was overrated, but he wasnt. He was a MONSTER – a tiny dude who went the distance with hughes and ATE up hermes back when the brazillian was killing it. Joe Stevenson was on a tear before his title fight, the jens pulver rematch was a STATEMENT.
It honestly pisses me off when people take a win, see that afterwards the loser of that fight lost several more, and say “well obviously he was overrated.” Fuck that. Fuck that shit dude.
You can’t take away wins from these guys because later on their competition started to slow down. Randy beat the HELL outta Silvia, oh but wait then silvia lost to fedor in 36 seconds. Sorry randy, you really didnt do anything.
I like the point you make, just make the point with sound arguments. Don’t try to tell me that the lightweight that mauled matt hughes and beat the piss out of Sean Sherk, Kenflo and Sanchez back to back to back is overrated and loses the biggest fights of his life. ANY fight with the belt on the line is the most important fight, you just choose to ignore the times he won.
now go to bed and stop arguing with idiots on the internet.
THREE MUSKATEERS BAR P4P BEST HALLOWEEN CANDY
by BloodbathAndBeyond on Aug 29, 2010 4:47 AM EDT reply actions 11 recs
THIS!
exactly my thoughts. i love it when my commenting job is done for me.
The best you can hope for in a repy from Snowden
is one line of smug self assuredness, followed by 20 responses from people trying their best to dance around calling him an outright asshole, and about 5 responses from a couple of people you’ve never seen before this discussion and will never see again after.
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
by Fake Emcee on Aug 29, 2010 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions 10 recs
Sean Sherk isn't overrated
look at his losses and tell me that he didn’t lose to the best of the best.
by TylerTreese on Aug 29, 2010 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Bring Back Marv
He helped fine tune BJ into a killing machine. Once he left… Penn loses 2 straight.
"I drop knowledge so heavy it leaves the world unbalanced, Exterminate the spiritual force of all that challenge, I'm the lyrical apocalypse that crumbles the granite, Replacing you as the dominant species on the planet" - Immortal Technique
“Many people were shocked by Penn’s two losses to Edgar. Not me.”
I love that line. You really are a seer of all things Jonathan Snowden. I should have known better than to treat you with hostility. You really aren’t full of yourself. You really aren’t plagued by dishonesty. You are just a seer of all things. That should have been obvious to me. You are never wrong, you never make faults.
Hey guys
It’s bj penn
"Don't be scared homie!" Mayhem Miller
by We All Hate Caleb on Aug 29, 2010 8:12 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Why not mention the destruction of Sean Sherk? Why try to devalue Frankie’s accomplishment?
I have a theory.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 29, 2010 5:02 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
What's up with all the "overrated" talk?
After every major event someone is proclaimed to be overrated or done.
"...I don't want to save the World, I don't even want to save me. We're so boring that we don't event want to save ourselves...There's nothing left to say, we're so fucking boring. Let it die I say. Let there be a new beginning...It's awful. Goodnight"
because MMA fans are fickle
so are writers like Fedor dropping out of p4p due to one loss after 30+ fights.
by TylerTreese on Aug 29, 2010 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Really?
Someone’s a keyboard warrior. Does he live up to his nickname? Maybe not. However, you can’t fault his accomplishments.
MMA Is Not Like Any Other Sport On The Planet. To Be Considered Great In The NFL,MLB and NBA You Usually Go By One Thing and That Is Championships. Tom Brady, Derek Jeter, Kobe Bryant. Those Are Just A Few Who Have Won Multiple Titles. What Is Common Theme Among Them? A Great Supporting Cast. Well, Guess What? In MMA, You Don’t Have That. No Matter What Your Corner Is Yelling It Is Just You In There, As Witnessed By Some Gameplans And Corner Talk This Evening. I Haven’t Ever Truly Been A Huge BJ Fan But The Man Deserves His Credit. People Just Don’t Understand, A Loss In MMA Isn’t The End Of a Career I Mean It’s a Loss. Granted It Isn’t Football Where You Can Go 10-6 In A Year And Still Have A Shot At a Championship But At The Same Time If Chael Sonnen Can Go 24-10 And Have a Shot at A Tiltle Why Can’t MMA Be Like Most Sports. Bottom Line BJ Penn Is An Absolute Warrior In The Cage. Lazy At Times? Yes. Anticlimatic At Times? Yes. Overrated? Absolutely Not, His Wins Alone Make Him A Legend.
Nope
stop posting
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 5:28 AM EDT up reply actions
this
is why
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Aug 29, 2010 5:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Because I Had A Pretty Decent Post And Then Apologized For My Typing?
Nope
by NaciremaDream on Aug 29, 2010 5:54 AM EDT up reply actions
You did have a decent point, but why do you type like that? It’s obviously something you do intentionally. Man, it’s hard to read. I skipped your comment the first time, until I say Tyler say you have a good point.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
Sorry
Sorry if that caused anybody discomfort. It really isn’t something I do on purpose. For whatever reason I picked that habit up a few years ago and unless I’m doing a paper for school, I always type like that. It wasn’t meant to be a dick move or anything like that. So, once again I am sorry.
Nope
by NaciremaDream on Aug 29, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Not to beat a dead horse,
but i wouldn’t go as far as saying bj is overrated. A loss to Fwankie isn’t something to be ashamed of. Clearly this man is the real deal, and he’s proven so. Everyone likes to talk about baby jays boxing, which is next level, but frankie is better. his footwork and head movement really made a difference, not to mention his wrestling. Really makes you think about the advantages of not cutting so much weight huh..
For someone who wrote a book on MMA history
you sure are ignoring a lot of it. Like the fact that in a sport barely 20 years old, BJ Penn is indeed a legend of this sport. Name me three lightweights you believe are all-time greats. If Penn isn’t on your list, then you’re a liar or a fool or both.
Now 100 years in the future, BJ Penn may not stand the test of time. Others may come along and surpass him and his “pedestrian record” and perhaps rightfully get placed above him in the pantheon. For the better part of a decade, ALMOST HALF AS LONG AS THE HISTORY OF THIS ENTIRE DAMN SPORT, BJ Penn has been the best lightweight this sport has had to offer. He’s lost to two people at this weight in eight years. The 2010, 32-and-a-half year-old BJ Penn may certainly not be what he once was, or maybe he is and others have surpassed him, but from 2001 when he debuted to 2009 when he opened up a trench in Deigo Sanchez’s forehead, he was the most dominant fighter in his weight class against some of the very best that class had to offer. Is he a front-runner? Almost certainly. Every time it’s been close aside from that 2nd Uno fight, he’s not been able to avoid that loss when faced with serious adversity.
However, losing to people above the weight you are supposed to be fighting at is nothing to be ashamed of. If losing to Matt Hughes and Georges St. Pierre and Lyoto fucking Machida at 190 lbs. when you weigh 155 and giving them all competitive fights (including a win over Hughes) makes you overrated, then sorry, rating him as godlike may have been too much, I’ll concede that. Perhaps rating him as one of the best lightweights IN THE HISTORY OF THIS SPORT is more appropriate. Sorry if that doesn’t live up to your lofty rating of him, but that’s where he stands.
I’m very tempted to push the line this site draws on bashing the writers, but I do like posting here despite your consistent journalism that could very easily be called yellow. That’s as far as I’ll take it, but do understand that your ignorance to the history you wrote is outstandingly inane. I do not think you are willfully ignorant, but are merely pushing the envelope to get site traffic and rouse passions. It’s a shame you’re doing this at the expense of what used to be a great reputation.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Aug 29, 2010 5:47 AM EDT reply actions 19 recs
I like you Snowden, you make waves, and without waves, why, we wouldn’t be surfing now would we;)
I think you will always have a home here, you bring out passion in people, and that my good sir, is a good thing.
Penn lost something, be it explosion, speed, motivation, drive, heart, or maybe his peak. I hope he is not done, he is a legend of the sport regardless of what you say, the fact that he did lose those fights, and by the way he lost them, just makes him a much more interesting legend in my mind.
I love
Reading snowden articles. They bring out the best in people.
"Don't be scared homie!" Mayhem Miller
by We All Hate Caleb on Aug 29, 2010 6:06 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
I always look forward to Snowden's sensationalism after a big card
and he didn’t disappoint tonight.
Yo, I'm smokin herbals till it hurts you
I keep your daughter way out past her curfew
Snowden
out to shock and annoy once again. :)
Can’t a guy lose a fight (i thought he won or maybe drew the first Edgar one)without being called overrated????
This article is super critically ridiculous and not supercalafragilistic at all.
What,so now his destructions of Sherk,Florian and Sanchez mean nothing?
His wins over Gomi,Hughes,pushing GSP close in the first fight and even having the balls to get in their with Machida are by the by?
He is an MMA great and will be deservedly regarded as such.
Is Jonathan Snowden Predictable?
Facts Point to Yes.
by Passive on Aug 29, 2010 7:21 AM EDT reply actions 8 recs
Only to miserable pundits.
BJ Penn, when it is all said and done, will be considered a disappointment.
Considering BJ will be a UFC Hall of Famer, this article is kind of nonsensical. He’s a celebrity and businessman who provides an excellent life for his family and friends.
An overrated multiple weight class champion and UFC Hall of Famer???
Penn has "little to show" for his career
As opposed to Jonathan Snowden, who has accomplished… uhh… errrrr…
Oh, that’s right, you’re the one blathering about him on the Internet.
Everybody needs to take a deep breath and calm down...
To be considered one of the greatest, you need to beat some of the greatest. This is a completely unassailable argument.
Maybe the Penn era really is over. Everybody loses, Does that make him any less of a fighter? I don’t think so. However, it depends how high you had him on the pedestal to begin with. I still have him as the greatest lightweight ever. However, as a pound-for-pound great, he is still behind GSP and Fedor based on the strength of competition. Unfortunately for Penn, Jonathan does raise a disturbing trend regarding title fights.
Snowden being Snowden
Seriously Sherdog forum level here.
hahahahaha
this is on that level =P I bet there will be 80 threads today on there talking about the same thing
by TylerTreese on Aug 29, 2010 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't even want to get involved with any of this shit
I’m just here to check out the nuclear fallout from another Snowden A-bomb.
I will say that I don’t give two shits how many “defining” fights Penn’s lost in Snowden’s lifeless doll eyes, he is absolutely an all time great in the sport regardless and it’s absurd to want to exclude him but feel perfectly fine with including Mr. “I got submitted by the sucky Overeem brother” Couture.
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
Are you a PRIDE nut hugger still trying to bash any fighter related to the UFC or a newly minted Toney-ite (or Sonnen-ite) just saying anything no matter how much truth there is to it?
Penn dominated and finished Gomi, in his prime. He got the better of a 215 lb. Machida in the striking in their match and got laid on. Bringing up the 2nd Hughes fight shows how desperate you are. Anyone who has half a brain knows who the better fighter that night was.
Instead of making an article about how the guy who lost was overrated, why don’t you praise the winner instead of trying to undercut the credit he should get.
because he’s going to get like 400+ comments and that’s all anyone cares about
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 29, 2010 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions
This piece is pure insanity.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 29, 2010 9:09 AM EDT reply actions 24 recs
yup
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 29, 2010 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Glad I'm not alone.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 29, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
BJ DOESN'T WANNA FIGHT LIKE A MM-ARTIST
CAUSE HE THINKS MIXING THING UP IS BORING AND MAKE U GO TO DECISION. But becoming a one dimensional stiker is not boring at all.
I watched the fight and was not impressed with Edgar at all. Bj Penn didn’t show up to the fight . Anybody see him just standing there before the fight like he was in outer space the whole time. Edgar couldn’t put Bj Penn away who looked like he didn’t even try… and im not a BJ fan at all either. This division looks like it may be in trouble…
I mentioned this a little in my post under this. I feel BJ is still the best at 155 and the division is going to see a little odd with out him as champion. We may see the belt start switching hands often much like the 205 division has been lately. With Maynards wrestling he could hold the belt for awhile but who knows. I do think they will have a hard time selling Maynard vs Frankie.
Shut up, Tito.
by TruthSeeker1223 on Aug 29, 2010 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
you might have been the only one
Edgar was incredibly quick both on his feet and with fast combos…he jumped in and out with impressive skill. His wrestling, footwork and grappling were all on form last night. I get that the story of this fight was BJ being comatose, but Edgar did very well
by sillycaboose on Aug 29, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
i'm not a BJ fan but
I hate it when people write articles after someone loses. There is no other sport out there like this. You are seriously only as good as your last fight. I do think that when it’s all said and done the one thing people will say about BJ is that when he was motivated there was no one better and that he never lived up to his potential. Saying he is overrated is a big stretch though. He destroyed Diego and Kenny before he faced Edgar. If he would have one the decision in his first fight with Edgar then articles like this would never have been written and BJ would still be cleaning out the division.
I personally think Edgar is just a bad match up for BJ. BJ hasn’t faced too many guys as fast as Edgar and I just don’t think BJ could get his timing down against Edgar. It will be interesting to see if Edgar can keep Maynard from taking him down. If Maynard gets the belt I still feel like he won’t be the best lightweight in the world. I guess I still feel BJ is.
Shut up, Tito.
by TruthSeeker1223 on Aug 29, 2010 9:31 AM EDT reply actions
I think that saying Penn is overrated BEFORE Frankie's rematch with Gray Maynard
Is disrespectful to Frankie. If Frankie win’s, in three consecutive fights he’s taken out the greatest LW to have ever lived twice AND wiped away the only loss on his record. BJ’s legacy is in the hands of Frankie, who if he goes on to be something special, will be the GSP to BJ’s Hughes. No one has ever said Hughes was overrated, because GSP was frankly just better.
Overrated though? What a cliche term. BJ’s career has been defined by challenging himself to move up and weight and fight the best. Losses to GSP, Hughes, Pulver, and Machida before the Edgar fights weren’t considered career damning losses, and the fact that he was undersized and often put on a good fight showcased just how much talent he has.
My main argument would be: It’s entirely disrespectful to argue this garbage prior to having seen what Frankie will do with the belt, and how great he’ll be.
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
Well...
Gone are the days of champions with semi-checkered records who flourish on talent alone…arrived are the days of champions with records that truly reflect their talent and their determination to always do better.
Frankie Edgar – 13-1 who now has the chance to avenge his 1 loss, and if he doesn’t, he’ll be replaced as the champ by an undefeated fighter in the form of Gray Maynard.
GSP – 20-1, has avenged BOTH of his losses(1 of them twice)
Anderson Silva – 27-4, boasting a 13 fight win streak, and the only loss at his current weightclass of dominance came via DQ
Shogun – 18-4, avenged 2 losses, and could avenge the other 2 at pretty much any time
Lesnar – 5-1, has brutally avenged his 1 loss, and could potentially do it 2 or 3 more times(watching Lesnar thrash Mir never gets boring)
CPG
Posted GSP’s record as 20-1 and then said he avenged BOTH of his losses….
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 29, 2010 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions
"could avenge the other 2 at pretty much any time"
it’s not good to assume things in MMA…
by TylerTreese on Aug 29, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
just to clarify
I’d favor Shogun to beat Babalu & Forrest (Shogun is also one of my favorite fighters) but it’s never good to assume things lol
by TylerTreese on Aug 29, 2010 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Don't forget about Gil Melendez
who in all this talk about LW’s gets lost in the discussions. Avenged both his defeats, dominated Aoki. Time to start giving him his due.
by memitim on Aug 29, 2010 12:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
355 comments.....what's one more?
I’ve been a big BJ Penn fan, and regarding the Penn we saw two fights in a row, and certainly this last one……he is lacking some intensity…some strategy. I think he’s got to look inside and see if he still wants to fight. He looked like a man with no fire last night.
Rogan was spot on when he expected BJ to unleash kicks to the leg to slow down the faster man. Where were they? His corner gave him no help….he needs new and better corner men. I read book and he often speaks of questioning his training to improve. Well, I think he needs a new camp. Maybe Greg Jackson or something. He has the skills, but currently no one to help hone and bring them out.
Wow...
I’ve always been a defender of Jonathan Snowden as I feel he gets his fair share of unwarranted heat from certain sections of the MMA community, but parts of this article are pretty indefensible TBH.
the extraordinary BJ Penn is merely ordinary.
Strange statement to make really. While BJ may not be a Fedor, GSP or Anderson, he is still a very extraordinary fighter at 155lbs. I didn’t realise losing a decision to Frank Edgar disproved that, and trumped his otherwise impressive streak at LW.
Yes he’s a front runner, but the same could be said of Roy Jones and he’ll still go down as one of the best boxers ever.
In title fights, BJ Penn is a pedestrian 5-5-1
Kind of a silly stat to throw out there considering that one shot was his fourth ever MMA fight (Pulver), two were outside of his natural weightclass and against the two greatest WWs of all time (Hughes 2 and GSP 2), and one was the result of a very controversial, and in my view incorrect, decision (Edgar 1).
They aren’t excuses, BJ took those fights and he lost them, but they should hardly be the be all and end all of an argument against Penn’s place alongside fellow MMA greats.
This article just reeks of sensationalism and looks like a desperate attempt at controversy. Which is quite disappointing TBH, as a constructive argument can still be made for the points that Jonathan’s trying to highlight here. It’s just a shame he chose not to go down that route.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Aug 29, 2010 10:14 AM EDT reply actions
“This article just reeks of sensationalism and looks like a desperate attempt at controversy. Which is quite disappointing TBH, as a constructive argument can still be made for the points that Jonathan’s trying to highlight here. It’s just a shame he chose not to go down that route.”
An astute observation. Well said.
You don’t think that several fans had BJ in the same tier as Fedor, GSP, and Anderson? Not saying everyone did, but I bet the majority did. The fact of the matter is that he’s not. That in itself justifies being called overrated. I think many of you need to look up the definition of “overrated,” and maybe think back to pre-GSP 2.
Finally!
A knee-jerk Snowden article I can get behind! Thumbs up!
I always knew Snowden got the basis for his articles by asking his magic 8 ball, now I have proof.
by ufc4 on Aug 29, 2010 10:31 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Styles make fights
Edgar has Penn’s number but that does not make him over-rated. He’s won UFC championships in TWO divisions. He’s a legend.
I did pick Edgar to win the second fight (went 4/5 on the night) and it did not ruin BJ in any way.
I love how he says he wasn’t shocked by the losses yet he picked BJ to win. I know hindsight is 20/20 but don’t act like it wasn’t another upset to you and most people
by TylerTreese on Aug 29, 2010 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know what to make of the article. I think you might be making too much about it myself, but I guess we’ll see what BJ does going forward.
I think BJ is his own worst enemy. I wonder how hard he really works and wants it sometimes. In the first fight with Edgar I really thought he looked off and maybe he was. Maybe he thought if he came into this fight “on” he wouldn’t have to worry and he didn’t bother doing the extra work. But it looked like half way through the first round Edgar took that confidence right out of him.
Edgar looked great though. Trying to say how bad BJ is now seems to take something away from what Edgar did. I thought he looked fast and stayed crisp through the whole fight, his conditioning looked better; the way he handled BJ on the ground. He fought a great fight.
Don’t you think hard work and desire are required to make a fighter of an elite-caliber? I could say that I’m the best fighter in the world, I simply don’t have the desire to fight. How ridiculous does that sound? If you don’t want it and you’re not willing to work hard for it, it ain’t happenin’. Stop giving BJ credit for his upside and start grading him on his actual performances. There’s a difference in the results, and they have “OVERRATED” written all over it.
I don’t really understand your complaint other than just someone wanting to argue on the internet.
I pretty much said the same thing. I think that he is his own worst enemy and doesn’t put in the hard work he needs to stay consistent. Going forward we will see if he has that desire or not. At this point I don’t think three losses out of his weight class and two losses to one guy really give us longterm proof.
Stop picking fights where there are none.
by JeremyShane on Aug 29, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, but I didn’t mean to direct that entire post just to you. I was just commenting on your statement about BJ being his own worst enemy. I think if you’re your own worst enemy, you can’t hang with the elite. Simple as that. BJ’s overrated. He’s proven that he’s not willing to put in the effort required. We can’t give him credit for his failed upside any longer. He is what he is.
I don’t know. I think that having done what he has done in MMA while being his own worst enemy is scary. That’s a lot of talent. But he will never be consistently the best if he doesn’t put in all the effort. Just don’t think I’d chalk him up to being over rated at this point.
Seems like everything in MMA goes from one extreme to the other too easily. Someone wins they are the best ever, someone loses they have always sucked/are over rated, etc. We can’t write history before it happens to matter how much we try. Let his career play out a bit more before labeling him IMO.
by JeremyShane on Aug 29, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Well I’m not of that kind. I’ve been saying Penn’s overrated for a very long time. And the fact of the matter is that Penn gets credit for what he COULD DO, rather than being judged on what he DOES DO. Everyone keeps making excuses for him. He had alot of promise that hyped him up a ton and people perceived him as elite. He simply isn’t. He was superior in a weak LW division, so he tried to move up, but overall ended up failing against elite competition………..competition that he was perceived as being as good as, which he proved not to be. That makes him overrated.
I see your point. I don’t think I’m judging him on what he could do, so maybe personally I don’t over rate him. Maybe in my head, for me, he is rated just right. At this point I’ll be interested in seeing how he rises to the challenges ahead for him. Might make or break any legacy he has at this point.
This has to be the worst article I've read on BE.
Not calling for the writer to be fired or anything, but in all fairness, besides his loss to Edgar last night , where he was completely dominated, and his decision loss at UFC 112, who has he not COMPLETELY SCHOOLED IN HIS DIVISION since his loss to Pulver several years ago.
To speak of his losses to the best of the best IN A HIGHER WEIGHT CLASS after he rose up to the challenge, as though they were losses in his own division, is ignorant at best.
Penn has been ‘The Prodigy’ in his weight class for quite some time now. Is it possible that lack of a serious training regimen/ lifestyle/ age is catching up with him? Or maybe Edgar has his #, and is just too fast for Penn to handle.Time will tell, because there are two questions that need to be asked after this repeat:
1. How will Edgar’s style handle the other top contenders in his division. (Frankly, I don’t see him being as dominant as we saw last night.) And,
2. Is BJ all of a sudden going to look mortal against the best in his weight class.
Only time will tell. Either way, no legend lasts forever. And that’s exactly what BJ Penn is in this sport, a legend.
by Chuckle on Aug 29, 2010 10:48 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
this is pretty much why I just come here for a news round-up
some of the opinion pieces leave some stuff to be desired like this.
People always forget that styles make fights and i’d pick BJ to beat anyone but Edgar (I did pick Edgar last night btw). I expect Edgar to not beat Maynard. Y’know because styles make fights.
by TylerTreese on Aug 29, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Does BJ have fights in weight classes other than LW? Yes. Do other fighters switch weight classes and include all of their fights as part of their careers? Yes. So let’s not ignore fights just to make BJ look better, when he chose these fights and was confident he could win them.
Answer me this……can you name another elite-caliber fighter in his prime who has a sub .500 winning percentage in title fights and has been completely dominated in 4+ round fights multiple times (GSP 2/Edgar 2)?
Penn IS Overrated......
Been saying it since before his 2nd GSP match. I’m tired of hearing excuses from BJ and his fans…….unmotivated this……..grease that……..cardio this………..injury that. The fact of the matter is that he has almost all the tools necessary to be what he is perceived as being and what he’s been hyped as being….keyword, “almost.” The man obviously lacks heart and discipline. Pretty important tools for an elite fighter. Everyone gives him credit for what he COULD DO, but the fact of the matter is that he has CHOSEN NOT TO DO IT.
Before GSP-Penn II, BJ was considered to be in the same tier as GSP and Anderson Silva. I completely disagreed with this. He was simply getting much more credit than he deserved. This is the definition of “overrated.” Overrated =/= Bad. It simply means someone isn’t as good as they were perceived. And unfortunately for all the Penn fanboys, upside and capabilities aren’t what makes a fighter. It’s results. Wake up. All I know is that Penn isn’t the highest ranked LW anymore, but I don’t even care about that. The only thing that makes me sick is seeing him in the top 5 of P4P rankings. Hopefully he’ll finally drop now.
by MMAman on Aug 29, 2010 10:53 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I don't care if anyone reads this, or even calls me a troll...
but i’m so damn glad BJ lost :)
The rest... is virtually identical
by randy maverick on Aug 29, 2010 11:46 AM EDT reply actions
just take note of this everyone
no matter how great you are you will always have fans turn on you soon when you lose and start to say hes overrated, past his prime, needs to retire etc it’s sad man but fans do this ever time when Matt Hughes loss to GSP and Thiago Alves "well it’s time for Matt to retire when GSP loss to Matt Serra “WOW GSP is mentally weak” Fedor losing to Werdum " Fedor’s overrated hes fought nothing but cans" Shogun loss to Griffen " wow just another overrated pride fighter" just remember guys whenever your favorite fighter lose all his past accomplishments will be thrown out the window
Poor Frankie Edgar just can’t win. He wins the first fight besides being a 7-1 underdog, besides everyone thinking Penn would obliterate him in a round….and everyone whines about a “controversial” decision that I quite frankly never saw. I might be one of the only ones that thought Edgar just outworked Penn in the first fight. So fine, its rematch time and people refused to give Edgar any credit for the first win, so this time he’s even more aggressive, wins 99% of the standup exchanges, puts Penn on his back numerous times, escapes positions that would have doomed others, and takes the fight in a much more decisive manner. Does he get credit? No, so now all the talk is “Penn was never that good to begin with”. Bullsh!t. I’m of the conclusion that most of these so called “experts” are a bunch of miserable f&cks who are never pleased by anything anyways. Frankie Edgar is the #1 lightweight in the world, and because some people just can’t handle that for whatever reason we just get to hear alot of sh!t like the above. Shame on you.
by joshyboy708 on Aug 29, 2010 12:03 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
As for the first fight with Edgar...
If that had been any LW other than BJ fighting the exact same fight, strike for strike, takedown for takedown, there would have been no controversy over the result….
Somehow the BJ blinders changed that for many people…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 29, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Rec'd
The rest... is virtually identical
by randy maverick on Aug 29, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Doesn’t mean that some of it isn’t true or that some people thought the same thing before the loss happened (i.e. I’ve been saying BJ’s overrated since before GSP embarrassed him).
of course you have
and only when BJ lose you come out of hiding to agree with everyone else :)
Hey, if you don’t believe me, it’s not going to bother me. If you really want to know, just ask my friends. And I’m obviously not agreeing with everyone else. Seems pretty obvious that I’m in the minority, or are you just not bright enough to notice that??? I’m simply discussing the topic.
oh yes i'll go out of my way to see if you're a BJ penn hater lol
and how exactly are you in the minority when most of the comments and the discussing is about how overrated BJ is it’s called “majority” look it up next time bright one :)
HA HA…..well you went out of your way to question whether I’m full of it or not. And I’m a Penn disliker and it doesn’t have any effect on how good or bad I think he is. Maybe you should take the next few days to tally up all the comments, because I bet the majority of them disagree with the article.
highly doubt it since BJ is coming off a loss
maybe if he won then yes i would agree with you but he loss so it’s much easier to discredit him now and forget about past accomplishments so seeing comments like yours will obviously be the favorite
Not most the minority
read a lot of them some people actually defend BJ but for the most part it’s BJ is overrated, lazy, bj was never that good and including your negative comments towards as for a green thumbs up oh yes a green thumbs up determines how everyone feels about BJ all 300+ people voted on the thumbs up great source for finding out the majority :)
Wow, you really aren’t the brightest, are you? I just scanned through and counted up all the green thumbs. 17 were AGAINST the author and 2 agreed with the author. Get a clue.
Get a clue? Dude, did you even read your comment 17 agree 2 disagree that’s only a total of 19 thumbs with a topic that has over 400+. Of course, the positive people that like BJ who aren’t just wagon riders are going to vote for each other. But for negative assholes like you, who just try to discredit a great fighter, that’s a different story. In other words, why would a hater vote for another hater? A lot of them just talk shit and leave, while the people who actually aren’t wagon riders try to defend a fighter they actually enjoy to watch.
I've been saying what Snowden said for a while now.
I just can’t respect a fighter who needs motivation.
His motivation should be to win. That’s it. Any time you play a sport where you’re motivation is something different than winning, you need to get out of it. Period.
The only motivation should be winning that belt. Nothing else. If BJ can’t get himself up for that, then he should just retire and do us all a favor.
Every time he loses, the excuses are the same. “If he had been motivated more…! If he had tried harder…! If he had trained better…!” Maybe the dude’s head just isn’t that great (and that is a huge part of MMA).
by Jonathan. on Aug 29, 2010 1:05 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree that Penn gets a little excuse happy during his losses, but the fact remains that Edgar has now twice beaten a guy that everyone thought was “superior”. Personally I think that has more to do with Edgar being just that good, instead of Penn just not being that good.
by joshyboy708 on Aug 29, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's a bit of both.
If anyone should be an Edgar nuthugger, it’s me. I love the guy and, being from Jersey, will pick him over anyone out of pride. But Penn, to me, has just never been all that great. I just cannot give major respect for a dude who constantly needs motivation for a fight. It’s like, when someone trash talks him, he somehow can get up for the fight (look what he did to Diego). But if a dude is quiet and respectful like Frankie? It’s like BJ doesn’t know what to do if he can’t get angry.
Frankie demolishing him in the 2nd fight should have gotten him angry enough for the 2nd-5th rounds. Guess not.
"Overrated" is a harsh title...
But I do think people were too bullish on his stock. He’s a great fighter and a legend in the weight division for sure, but he’s not quite the world destroyer he was held up as. That’s an indictment on public opinion though, not on BJ himself.
Penn is far from the greatest fighter who ever lived
He is however the greatest lightweight ever.
Your facts say “yes” but you’ve fabricated them as if he was dominated in all 5 losses you mentioned. Really it’s only been twice (GSP and Edgar II) and one of those was at welterweight.
Overrated? Only if you consider him the best ever. At lightweight? Hogwash.
Toronto FC - Where road games are forfeited and we STILL have no idea how to play from behind.
Was BJ considered to be in the same tier as Fedor, GSP, and Anderson by many fans? Yes. Is he in their class? No. That = Overrated.
But in terms of Mixed Martial Arts
He’s one of the best who ever lived. BJ Penn held two belts in 2008 and now that he has neither in 2010 he’s overrated?
I call BS.
If you think he’s #1 over everyone else then yes he’s overrated. Otherwise no this is nonsense.
Toronto FC - Where road games are forfeited and we STILL have no idea how to play from behind.
Wow….so you’re saying the only possible way someone can be overrated is if they’re considered the greatest of all-time, but they’re not, or are you implying that BJ is the 2nd best of all-time? Either is absurd. Sorry to tell ya.
Fine. There are several fighters I'd take over him
But fact of the matter is BJ’s accomplishments warrant a mention amongst the best who ever fought in the sport and I don’t care what number you give him.
Toronto FC - Where road games are forfeited and we STILL have no idea how to play from behind.
Lord help meh.
I’m so close to getting banned right now. but Im just gonna say it one last time….Snowden
gtfo.
by Hendo_One-Shot on Aug 29, 2010 2:16 PM EDT reply actions 7 recs
Nothing I can say that hasn’t already been said above. Regardless this piece of crap article doesn’t deserve a serious response.
by Hendo_One-Shot on Aug 29, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, As evidenced by all the other BJ nuthuggers above that are outraged by this ridiculous article. arguing that BJ isn’t one of the all time greats is ridiculous, point blank.
by Hendo_One-Shot on Aug 29, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Bottomline……….BJ isn’t as good as most fans thought. That’s the definition of “overrated,” my friend.
by MMAman on Aug 29, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Idk if you missered where snowden said “Now who is being reactionary? There are only a handful of all time greats. A guy who loses all his big fights and is 15-7-1 isn’t one of them. No matter how badly we all wanted him to be.” but that’s how snowden feels, and it was obvious throughout the article.
by Hendo_One-Shot on Aug 29, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
The premise of the article is that BJ is overrated. I don’t have to agree with every single word or phrasing in the article to agree with the bottomline, which is correct.
3 – 1 = 2
BJ – unworthy hype = overrated
well then why are you bitching at me? I just said that I have a problem with snowden saying BJ isn’t one of the all time greats, now gtfo.
by Hendo_One-Shot on Aug 29, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess it depends on who you consider an all-time great. If you think Tito is an all-time great from, then obviously you would put Penn there, too. I think they’re both very overrated, though.
So, you’re admitting that BJ is/was overrated?
pretty much any champ ever is overrated. so yes. but is bj the best lightweight in the history of mma? yes.
by Hendo_One-Shot on Aug 29, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
and meh. sorry for the bitterness. I’m in a fucking terrible mood atm _
by Hendo_One-Shot on Aug 29, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
No problemo, but I don’t think GSP or Anderson are overrated. And I think as recently as pre-GSP-Penn 2 that Penn was considered in the same league as them. He’s obviously not, leading to the fact that BJ is overrated.
it depends on what you see as overrated. I’d say the majority of fans think GSP and AS are better than they actually are. Hype affects us all. Most people would assume GSP is gonna have an easy time with KOS, but if he doesn’t, in a way he was overrated.
by Hendo_One-Shot on Aug 29, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Right, but there are obviously degrees to everything. And BJ’s overratedness is at a much higher degree than your example. If I predict that Lesnar KO’s Cain in round one, but he actually does it in round two, technically I overrated Lesnar or underrated Cain. But that’s just silly to take literally. BJ is a different story due to the greater degree.
I don’t think you can say that given the circumstances. I mean sure, he should have beaten edgar. but in that sense, fedor should be even more overrated, as should machida as both of them have been finished. And i don’t feel machida was even that overrated.
by Hendo_One-Shot on Aug 29, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Instead of an ordered ranking, let’s go deeper and give them overall ratings. Hypothetically, let’s say that public perception says Anderson is 99, GSP is 98, Fedor is 97, and BJ is 96, while the next best is like a 92. But, then we learn that BJ’s rating is actually lower than most of the public thought………..say more like a 91. Whether you like it or not, in this example, that would factually make BJ overrated. Whether you want to agree with all the exact details is another story, but hopefully you get the point and you realize that just because someone is overrated does not mean that they aren’t any good. BIG difference!
Snowden... Jesus man...
What are you thinking? Really, I’ve seen you accused of this before, but you really do write pieces just to get eyes on them, don’t you? You’re trying to tell us that the man who has had the most impressive string of victories ever at 155 (Pulver, Stevenson, Sherk, Florian, Sanchez) is overrated?
What the hell are you smoking? I want some. Pronto.
haha. Snowden is bringing in the hits again. i disagree somewhat with the article. but i have to give it to snowden, he knows how to provoke. people will read his pieces, have a strong opinion about them and write millions of comments. mission accomplished. snowden is the chael sonnen of bloody elbow.
Maybe Bj is a leend
And Edgar is just really good. Is that impossible?
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
I WROTE IT BEFORE THE EVENT AND YOU ALL SCOFFED AT ME!
Penn has focused so intently upon writing his legacy across multiple weight classes that he has lost consolidation of his own. A loss on Saturday would still leave him as the greatest lightweight thus far, but would it be long for Edgar to surpass him? On the cusp of title contention are undefeated Gray Maynard (already with a win over the champ) and Kenny Florian, who Penn may have already defeated but has since developed into one of the most complete fighters in the world.
Though far from telling the whole story, his career record isn’t sterling at 15-6-1. He is indeed one of only two fighters in UFC history to capture the championship of more than one division, the other being Randy Couture. A series of losses now, however, could leave BJ Penn as the fighter most remembered for letting his ambition get the best of him. At 31 years old, Penn has but a little more time in his athletic peak, much of which was squandered meddling around in the higher weights.
Just five months ago, there was talk of Penn “lapping the division” and requiring another foray into heavier classes for a proper challenge. Now, as the lightweight title challenger, Penn must place his inter-divisional aspirations on the back burner and reclaim his throne at 155. If Penn is to continue building upon his coveted legacy he must first, as the old adage says, “do no harm”. The most crucial aspect of that is reclaiming his championship on Saturday in convincing fashion.
My oh my how people have turned on him… As a BJ Penn fan, I don’t have it in me to argue with all the guys above who think he isn’t the greatest LW ever (He is, so far), is overrated (He’s top-10 all-time, IMO) and tends to come up short in big fights (I guess title fights in your weight class aren’t “big fights”). But man, his legacy in the eyes of the fans has fallen off a cliff.
"I talked about retirement a little bit, but told them I'd be the same ol' grumpy, pissed off guy." --Bobby Cox
BJ Penn has been...
Since even before he walked down the ramp, heralded as God’s gift to MMA.
And over and over and over, he’s proven that to be false.
Great LW fighter? Of course. One of the best LWs ever? Probably.
One of the best fighters ever? Sorry, but no.
Contributor, NorthTexasFisticuffs.com
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by Applejack McNeil on Aug 29, 2010 3:59 PM EDT reply actions
This is… ridiculous. Penn is, by far, the greatest lightweight in the history of the sport. He’s still a great fighter, I think, but obviously not the best right now. Will he get back there? I hope so, and will be cheering him on, but if he doesn’t, his greatness isn’t diminished in my eyes.
I get the whole “overrated” thing, but really that is just a buzzword, and IMO, impossible to suss out.
"The common denominator of the Universe is not harmony, but chaos, hostility, and murder."
"Opinionated weather forecasters telling me it's going to be a miserable day. Miserable to who? I quite like a bit of drizzle, so stick to the facts!"
"Shoot him again... his soul is still dancing!"
by Ephemeral Artery on Aug 29, 2010 4:13 PM EDT reply actions
Damn, this is a harsh article
…but I can’t really argue too much with it. Does Snow take it too far, maybe, but the basic point of BJ’s “legacy” needing a serious re-evaluation is pretty spot on.
Go Orange(men)!
Ballsy aritcle. I long ago argued that BJ was overrated but retracted that after he brutalized Diego. Not so long ago, people were seriously arguing (even after the GSP loss) that he was the best fighter of all time. Judged against that lofty standard, he’s certainly overrated. I don’t like Penn but he’s still the best LW of all time at this point. He needs to get out of Hawaii, get a new corner and train at AKA or Jackson’s MMA. He definitely could be LW champ again. He probably matches up better against Maynard than Edgar, and Maynard probably will beat Edgar again.
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"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
Ridiculous piece.
Sure, Penn may have decisively lost last night, but it’s not because he is “over-rated”. Edgar is simply the better fighter and has the style to beat Penn. This viewpoint Snowden takes focuses on Penn and diminishes what Edgar was able to achieve (again), which is a pretty disrespectful, knee-jerk reaction to last night’s result.
Why can’t people just recognize that Frankie Edgar is #1 because he’s a great fighter and not because BJ is “washed-up” or “over-rated”? Edgar deserves more praise for what he’s been able to achieve despite being labeled “too small” for his weight-class, he’s a prime example of work ethic, heart, and determination carrying you to great heights in life. Frankie Edgar is what true champions are supposed to be made of.
Check out my articles at www.fightlockdown.com
BJ Penn was supposed to be one of the P4P greatest fighters in the history of the sport. Now he’s lost twice in a row in fights to a guy he was a heavy betting favorite over both times. Those losses mean much, much more in a historical or present context than beating Sean Sherk, as a point of comparison (which Frankie Edgar also did).
If BJ Penn never again regains a world championship, put some distance between yourself and these fights – how can he be compared as the historical equal of Fedor Emelianenko? Anderson Silva? George St. Pierre? Chuck Liddell? He looks a lot more like Mark Coleman or Urijah Faber than those guys. Doesn’t mean he isn’t talented or had great moments. Just means he sucks under pressure.
by VirtualBalboa on Aug 29, 2010 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with all of this, except for sucking under pressure. BJ’s not a choker. He doesn’t care enough to choke. He simply lacks the heart, discipline, and determination required to consistently be successful in highly competitive situations. People ignore this and give him a pass or an excuse after every loss. It’s time we stop labeling Penn on what his upside is (elite p4p fighter) and start labeling him for what he really is (great LW in a questionably-weak division). He was/is overrated. That’s a fact.
Mark Coleman? Are you joking me?
Penn may yet be one of the greatest P4P fighters in the history, but so too might be Frankie Edgar.
Matt Hughes is considered one of the greatest of all time despite losing to Dennis Hallman twice, that doesn’t mean he’s over-rated though. With the exception of maybe Jens Pulver, Penn has only lost to greats in his career; Lyoto Machida, Matt Hughes, Georges St. Pierre, and Frankie Edgar — who for all we know, may just turn out to be the greatest LW of all time (or possibly just Penn’s version of Hallman).
The fact of the matter is that this short-sighted reaction to the fight neglects the part Edgar played in it and it also reduces the accomplishments Penn has made as a champion to a matter of misreading MMA match-ups.
I scoff at your Mark Coleman remark because he was never anything close to what BJ Penn is/was. If anything, he’s more like a Nogueira who has met his Fedor, a Rich Franklin who has met his Anderson Silva, or a Machida who has met his Shogun. At worst he’s a Hughes who has met his Hallman (sorry for the redundancy, I just think it’s an important point to acknowledge).
Check out my articles at www.fightlockdown.com
by MilesHackett on Aug 30, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Penn was overrated
I’ve been saying that for years. And sure, during some of the time when he fought at lightweight, he was the best lightweight in the world — but that’s because the division was really weak. I said it.
"You stick a microphone in a guy's face and he calls out anybody but the champion, and Joe Silva should fax him a pink slip right then." -- Chael Sonnen.
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