UFC 118 Preview: Why MMA Fans Should Appreciate James Toney and Herschel Walker
MMA fans tend to reflexively dismiss "freakshow" fighters like James Toney and Herschel Walker and resent the attention they bring to our sport. But let's not forget that this is a still growing game and we need the eyeballs that are brought in by spectacle.
Here's B.J. Penn making the case for James Toney, via Ariel Helwani (transcript via Fight Opinion):
BJ PENN: "What's worse than having the WWF champ as our heavyweight champ? That ain't worse than having James Toney come on and win a fight."
ARIEL HELWANI: "So it's all not that bad for the sport, right? He's bringing a little hype. Can't be worse, right?"
BJ PENN: "It's great for the sport. James Toney is God's gift to MMA right now. He's promoting the sport. He's telling everybody to go out and buy tickets. You can't ask for a better person. What James Toney is doing is putting more money into everybody's pockets."
And here's a great quote from Herschel Walker telling Michael David Smith what he sees as his contribution to MMA:
"I think my fame can be helpful to mixed martial arts and I hope that helps, because I love mixed martial arts, whether it's Strikeforce or the UFC or smaller promotions," Walker said. "People think this sport is all blood -- but it's really about the most technical sport there is. So much of it is about technique."
Now I'm not going to pretend that James Toney is doing this to help MMA. No he's doing this for James Toney, but hey, whatever works.
Luke Thomas wrote a piece last year that summed up the role of spectacle in building this sport, I'll quote it again:
...trying to convince (MMA skeptic of) the beauty of MMA on MMA's terms is infinitely more difficult than using a little carrot with the stick.
The lesson is not that all freakshows are created equal, but that over time products can be improved and palates refined. What begins as a mess often causes enough of a spark to eventually burn away the unessential and produce something of value. As Rossen correctly underscores, MMA itself in America began as a freakshow, but the melee of circus bouts and proposed alligator pits nevertheless homed in a core concept of hand-to-hand fighting that has matured, endured and blossomed into a sophisticated, respectable version of its former self.
My hope for UFC 118 is that a few curious boxing fans will tune in to see how James Toney does and will enjoy the rest of the show and then come back for more.
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To me it’s not really a freakshow it’s closer to a retro mma fight.
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
Fair assessment.
Too bad this didn’t take place 15 years ago. At least we get to see it now. I don’t know why, but I’m really excited for this fight. At first, I didn’t think Toney had a chance. After really watching Toney’s fights and looking at Randy objectively, as a 47 year old athlete, I’m not so sure. The more I think about it, the more it intrigues me.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 26, 2010 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions
You need to watch Toney’s last couple fights, not his great fights from when he weighted 168 pounds. Latley, Toney has been going life and death with complete bums. For crying out loud, he got dinged pretty good by Matthew Greer in his last fight, who’s just a club fighter.
That doesn’t really matter though. What matters is that James doesn’t have any takedown defense, and Randy is a pretty darn good MMA wrestler. Really well rounded, experienced MMA fighters have problems with Randy. Randy’s not going to have any problems taking down James Toney. Could James Toney land one punch and knock out Randy? Sure. So could any MMA fighter. But if Minotauro Nogueira and Brandon Vera couldn’t put away Randy when they had him hurt pretty badly, I kinda doubt James Toney does.
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Comparing Toney's striking to Nog's
is like comparing an aged baseball great(Frank Thomas) to a middle aged minor league guy(a nobody).
You are severely underestimating how hard boxers punch and get punched. A normal human being couldn’t take a stiff jab from a middleweight. Everything a boxer does is to help him punch really hard and accurately. No to mention Toney’s hand speed is way better than Nog’s.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 26, 2010 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Boxers also have shoes for improved traction and can sit down on a punch without being taken down.
Not to mention the billion other reasons why boxing doesn’t translate to MMA punching quickly or simply.
Being a professional boxer is not some magic godly hand-speed thing. Toney is not coming out of The Matrix. His punching is either going to be fast and accurate by MMA standards but missing power because of adjustments he’s made to his game, or he’s going to be on his ass already. That’s the story.
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by pdl on Aug 26, 2010 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Fair point about shoes and stances
But as far as hand speed, muscle memory is the biggest factor. Anyone who has thrown millions of punches will have fast hands.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 26, 2010 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Right. Muscle memory based on a specific stance and style
that he has to abandon completely if he doesn’t want to get taken down by a an ankle pick from the outside. Which is why he’s either losing his advantage right away or he’s already on his ass.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Aug 26, 2010 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
An experienced boxer can punch fast and hard from a ton of different stances, and will have thrown hundreds of thousands of punches from different stances too, not just ideal ones. He’s just going to be more effective in some than others. I think Toney is either going to try and stick and move and rely on his footwork for takedown defense (probably a bad idea), or he’s going to risk getting taken down in order to try and land a very hard punch to the face within the first minute of the fight. Since Couture is going to have a very high percentage of succeeding with each takedown attempt anyway (I’d say at least 50% on each attempt even if Couture has to be a bit cautious of Toney’s hands, and it’s not going to get any better for Toney if the fight goes more than two minutes), Toney might as well risk everything on trying to land a punch that will rock Couture early on. I’m guessing this is what he’s going to do.
So, I give Toney maybe a 10% chance of pulling off a Mercer-Sylvia. And yes I know Couture is going to be way smarter about this than Sylvia was.
Toney is essentially feather fisted at anything approaching 200
I doubt he hits harder than Nog, and his handspeed isn’t anything like as good as it used to be.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Aug 26, 2010 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I wish he would go back down to Cruiserweight
then maybe people will take him serious and he could get a fight.
His hand speed has got to be better than Nog’s by default
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 26, 2010 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but Nog has a ground game to rely on. James Toney has a technical boxing game that’s devoid of much power, and that’s it. That will get you positively nowhere in MMA. I can’t think of anyone in the UFC’s heavyweight or light heavyweight division I would pick James Toney to beat, or even be remotley competitive with.
It’s like nobody watched UFC 1……..
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I'm only comparing their handspeed.
To say ‘devoid of much power’ isn’t accurate at all. Boxing power is entirely different than MMA power. Boxers don’t get finished nearly as often.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 26, 2010 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, it is accurate. James Toney isn’t a crushing knockout artist like Earnie Shavers or Mike Tyson. He’s a technician. It’s like comparing the ground and pound of Shane Carwin to Jake Shields.
And that’s a big issue when Toney’s only method of victory is to land one knockout blow in the 30 seconds he’s going to be on the feet before Randy takes him down.
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In no way are those similar. For a few reasons:
1. Jake Shields competes in Strikeforce, he’s not allowed elbows.
2. Toney has 42 KO’s, Shields has 3 TKO’s.
3. Carwin is a HW, Shields is a WW. Toney and Tyson are both HW’s.
I hate to think that Mike Tyson set the bench mark for power in MMA. :)
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 26, 2010 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
You totally missed the forrest for the trees, but whatever.
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Oh, I understand exactly what you're saying
I just disagree.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 26, 2010 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
with the comparison to Shields
Toney is a boxing technician. That’s for sure. I just think the two sports are so different that you really can’t compare them.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 26, 2010 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Toney’s power isn’t Ernie Shavers or Tyson level, but whose is? Seriously, Shavers is like widely considered the all time hardest hitter.
Toney may not have pure 1-punch power, but he still has v. good power.
by jhf884 on Aug 26, 2010 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What I’m saying is, the way people talk they THINK Toney has power like Shavers or Tyson. They think because he’s a pro boxer he’s some sort of one shot knockout artist.
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by Brian Mayes on Aug 26, 2010 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I sure as hell don't think he can
but I’m also not dumb enough to think a 230lb world class boxer doesn’t hit hard enough to KO Randy Couture. Its really clear you haven’t boxed or been a real fist fight.
Anyone who has boxed professionally can punch very very hard. There’s just no way around it. He’s 41, not 60. He was fighting tough competition 5 years ago.
Saying a pro HW boxer doesn’t hit hard because other pro HW boxers can hit harder is like saying a Lance Armstrong is slow now because Alberto Cantador beat him.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 26, 2010 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
5 years is a lifetime in combat sports. Chuck Liddell was a pound for pound king 5 years ago. James Toney arguably passed his prime 10 years ago, maybe even longer ago than that. He’s gone life and death with guys who have ranged from average to meager at best the last few years.
Could James Toney knock out Randy Couture? Sure. Anyone who straps on a pair of gloves and walks in that cage has a chance to land one shot and end the fight. For crying out loud, Mike Russow knocked out Todd Duffee. Anything can happen. Will it happen though? Probably not. If James Toney had a great wrestling base and a world class BJJ game, I’d give him a little more of a chance. He’s got nothing more than a quick pair of hands, and that will get you absolutley nowhere in a highlevel MMA fight. For crying out loud, Melvin Manhoef can not only throw punches that pack real knock out power but brutal kicks and knees, and he gets taken down and submited by anyone who has a mind to try it. I can’t imagine an old, obese James Toney having any more luck than Melvin Manhoef.
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by Brian Mayes on Aug 26, 2010 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions
"If James Toney had a great wrestling base and a world class BJJ game, I’d give him a little more of a chance."
Only a little more chance?
Damn, dude. You must really hate Toney. If he had those things he be a favorite against damn near anyone.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 27, 2010 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions
I think James Toney is a wonderful boxer and a great personality. I think he’s got a great personality. There’s just no way on earth I’m going to pick anyone who’s 41 years old, a minimum of 40 pounds overweight (more like 60), making their MMA debut with 9 months of training to do anything but lose in one sided fashion against a fairly high level MMA fighter. I’ve watched this sport too long to play the “what if” game. I know what happens when neophytes come into the game and fight someone who knows anything about MMA. The gulf in MMA knowledge between James Toney and Randy Couture is wider than the Grand Canyon. James Toney was an awesome boxer in his day, but this isn’t boxing. That will become very apparant on Saturday night.
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by Brian Mayes on Aug 27, 2010 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions
I meant this part here:
“If James Toney had a great wrestling base and a world class BJJ game, I’d give him a little more of a chance.”
I’m just saying.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 27, 2010 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
With no MMA experience, and 41 years old, overweight, and past his prime, he’d still get beat up by Randy Couture. He’d just stick around in there a lot longer than the one dimensional version of James Toney we’re going to see on Saturday night.
Randy Couture doesn’t have a whole lot of problems making really good, well rounded experienced MMA fighters look bad.
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by Brian Mayes on Aug 27, 2010 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions
With great wrestling and world class jiu jitsu?
Even then you don’t think he could do it?
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 27, 2010 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions
At 41 years old? 40-60 pounds overweight? With 9 months of MMA training? With no previous MMA fights? Almost ten years past his athletic prime? Punch drunk beyond belief?
No.
Gabriel Gonzaga is certainly no world class boxer, but he’s a very dangerous MMA striker. He’s got very heavy hands and dangerous kicks. And he’s got a world class ground game. And Randy Couture ran game on him. Brandon Vera is a very dangerous MMA striker with a solid wrestling background and good BJJ. You can argue weather or not Randy won that fight, but it was certainly close. Those were two relevant, active, experienced MMA fighters who couldn’t get Randy Couture out of there.
This what if game is stupid. James Toney will never have anything resembling a ground game. We know what Randy Couture brings to the table, and what it takes to get him out of there. James Toney doesn’t bring those tools to the table.
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by Brian Mayes on Aug 27, 2010 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Dude. I was just messing around
cause you said he’d have little better chance than he does now.
You’re my boy Brian, I’m just messing around with you. Relax. You seem a little wound up. Seriously. Watch the Jersey Shore, it always helps me. :)
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 27, 2010 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I enjoy the banter as well, but I’d rather slam my dick in a door than watch the Jersey Shore.
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Really?
I’m probably just easily amused.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 27, 2010 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions
What
am I the only one that thinks slamming my dick in a door is entertaining?
Josh Barnett is a thrice proven juicer with a pro wrestling mindset and a personality that would lead you to believe he's never had a romantic encounter that didn’t start with "you gotta pay me upfront."
I was gonna say something like that.
Your door must not be very soft…
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 27, 2010 3:01 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd also argue that Chuck is still better
than the vast majority of LHW’s in MMA. Not only that, during that 5 years, the sport has grown exponentially. I think Couture would still have a tough time beating Liddell.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 27, 2010 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Chuck is damaged goods at this point. If you’re getting knocked out by a counter right from a retreating Rich Franklin, that’s it. I think any relevant LHW puts Chuck out at this point. Randy would probably still have problems with him from a purely stylistic standpoint, but if Randy landed a clean shot on Chuck’s chin and turned Chuck’s lights out, would anybody be shocked?
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by Brian Mayes on Aug 27, 2010 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh brother, the great prognastigator Mr Mayes at it again
We got to hear this drivel on and on about how great Roy Nelson was and how Junior Dos Santos had no real skill and could be taken down and submitted, etc ect. Then he was nowhere to be found after the fight. Now he is here to give us his insight into the Couture vs Toney sideshow with an obvious bias towards Couture.
I love how he drops in the incomparable little token phrases like “nobody saw UFC 1” as if there were some stellar comparison to be made. The staff here at BE have been trying to come up with every possible boxing vs MMA angle for over 2 weeks and they have failed. I don’t know why Mr Mayes now thinks he is going to do it.
The facts(remember those?, they are the little parts that do not invlove bias, reality skewing and things taken out of proper perspective and context) are that there have been no boxers that have entered MMA that could ever compare to the skill level of James Toney, even far beyond his ideal weight and past his prime at 42. There is only one other that would even come close, and that would be a 50 year Ray Mercer. But even the boxing experts will grant that a prime Ray Mercer would have easily lost to a prime James Toney, let alone at this point in their careers.
Does this translate into a sure win for him?. Not by any stretch of the imagination. But against a 47 year old Couture, who has been stopped by glancing blows more than a few times in the last few years, he has a far greater chance than regular readers of an all MMA site will ever give him credit for.
Win lose or draw, he must be respected for his courage and what he has accomplished, regardless of if you like his attitude or not. There are only a handful of fighters in history that can lay claim to a 72-6 boxing record and a certain entry into the boxing hall of fame.
by SimplePsych on Aug 26, 2010 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Clearly you either trained with Toney, or a friend of yours did.
Toney is one of the better defensive boxers of all time. And he’s fucked in MMA because not only does boxing not translate well quickly but his cutie pie style doesn’t translate at all. He’s fucked in MMA. Period.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Aug 26, 2010 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
"Toney is one of the better defensive boxers of all time."
Hank Aaron was one of the better hitters of all time.
Dennis Rodman was one of the better rebounders of all time.
Dan Marino was one of the better quarterbacks of all time.
How the hell does anyone who hasn’t seen Toney fight or train in MMA know how his “cutie pie style” will tranlsate? They don’t. Peroid.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 26, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, lean down to slip punches on a shoulder roll the way he likes
and you heat a head kick. Or totally compromise your base for a wrestler. It doesn’t work. Toney is fucked. Ray Mercer at least has power to threaten with.
I’ve trained for boxing, muay thai, and MMA. I had to forget my boxing to do MMA. Toney has to forget most of what he knows to be functional. This isn’t a serious fight, it’s a freak show.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
My point is you never know.
What you’re saying makes sense, but its always going to be about the individual. Of course, he’ll have to make adjusts to his game to better suit MMA. We just have no real idea of how he is evolving his game.
I used to box in high school, I still train here and there and practice a lot at home. If you watch Anderson Silva’s Boxing for MMA, he demonstrates how to properly evade strikes in MMA. Instead of bending at the waist, he teaches to bend at the knee as you lean away. It drops your head about 6 inches down and a couple inches out of the center line. For me, just squaring my hips up a little and hunching my shoulders from a low boxing stance, gives me great leverage in a clinch. I guess everyone is different, but I found it pretty natural to box and grapple from that stance. I get down pretty low and keep my hands open. I can throw punches or underhooks from about the same place. It lets me really play with reach too, cause I appear so short but my arms are so long.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 26, 2010 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Three completley nude Victoria’s Secret models might show up at my door any minute with a breifcase full of cash and a supersized bottle of baby oil. Hey, it could happen. We just don’t know.
Listen, James Toney has 9 months of semi-serious MMA training, most of which was spent with a Kenpo guy who teaches self-defense techniques which are meant to save your ass in a street fight against an untrained bum, not a highlevel MMA athlete. James Toney didn’t pick up anything in those 9 months that is going to stop Randy Couture from getting some sort of takedown on him, advancing position, landing all sorts of elbows and punches on him, and latching on a submission.
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by Brian Mayes on Aug 27, 2010 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Hyperbole much?
Lets try to be realistic. Seeing as MMA is the sport where ‘anything can happen’, I think its fair to say it in this case.
Why are you so fired up about this? Why do you need to shout Randy’s name from a mountain top? They’re actually going to fight each other on a cage, in like two days.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 27, 2010 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m not fired up at all. I find it interesting that people A) think Toney is going to be competitve at all and B) think it’s some kind of affront to justice when it’s pointed out that James Toney is in way, way over his head here.
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by Brian Mayes on Aug 27, 2010 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions
So basically you point out the obvious
and repetitive points that anyone with an internet connection could?
Makes sense….
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 27, 2010 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Honest question – why do you care so much? You act like anyone who dismisses James Toney’s chances are some kind of crazy loons who are drinking the Zuffa Kool-Aid or something.
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by Brian Mayes on Aug 27, 2010 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Hells no
I honestly don’t care who wins, but I am very intrigued by this fight. I used to think Randy hands down, but the more I think about it Toney has a shot IMO. He’s just so awkward, fat and slippery. People like that can give even the best some real problems. Toney picked up boxing practically overnight, I’ve heard more than one person call him a savant. If he could apply any of that to MMA, he has a chance. A small one, but still a chance.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 27, 2010 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Because you said that being fat will be to his advantage, I’m going to not only rec your post, but totally respect your opinion on this fight from now on. No matter how much I disagree with it.
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by Brian Mayes on Aug 27, 2010 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Junior took down Roy.
Fatness + experience didn’t save him. It won’t save Toney. He’s totally fucked and I’m tired of saying it.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
By all means
quit saying it then.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 27, 2010 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions
When he's training
the man looks like a greased up Grimace.

"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 27, 2010 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
I love that being a sweaty fat guy is now considered an advantage in an MMA fight. I should start training…..
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by Brian Mayes on Aug 27, 2010 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Its only an advantage
when your trying to slip away from someone. So you gotta have a back up, like a pistol or knife.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 27, 2010 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions
on a serious note:
If you’re a strong fat guy with a huge gut(Roy Nelson), your top game is going to be a bastard for regular people to deal with.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 27, 2010 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I have watched that DVD more than is healthy
and constantly drill a lot of what he talks about. But Anderson demonstrates how to deal with equal or negative reach, not somebody naturally larger. And he’s trained his striking for MMA. You’ll notice the difference in where he keeps his hands against strikers and grapplers.
Toney less of a chance to beat Randy as Pat Barry has. Quite frankly, the Barnett vs. Schilt matchup should be eerily prescient here.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Awesome DVD
simple but effective.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 27, 2010 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Toney has great technique, but he’s never had much power. Most of his finnishes are ref stoppages where a guy is covering up and not answering back. He has very, very few clean KO’s on his record, and all of those are at 168. The only guy he’s been able to force a stoppage on at heavyweight is Greer, and I guess Holyfield if you want to count throwing in the towel between rounds as some sort of sign of Toney’s KO power.
The point is, Minotauro Nogueira is a damn good MMA fighter who knows his stuff, and he dropped Randy Couture multiple times and couldn’t finish him in the course of a 15 minute fight. I kinda doubt James Toney is able to do that. Honestly, I don’t know if Toney is confident enough in his ground defense to pounce on Randy if he did drop him. He would probably just stand back and wave him up.
For James Toney to win, literally EVERYTHING would have to go right for him. He would have to land the PERFECT punch, and knock Randy out cold on the spot. For Randy to win, he just has to go out and do what he does in pretty much every fight he’s in – go out, work for the takedown, ground and pound, and maybe get a submission if it presents itself.
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You really can't compare the two sports
Boxer can take way more shots to the dome. Its just the nature of the beast.
Obviously, Randy has many more ways to win this fight. He’ll probably do it, too.
Toney beat Jirav by KO at CW, BTW
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 26, 2010 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Incorrect. He beat Jirov on points.
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I see
he appeared KO’d so I assumed they called it off. What a safe sport.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 26, 2010 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions
FWIW
Jirov was a 12 round decision.
http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=1437&cat=boxer
http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=7121&cat=boxer
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Aug 26, 2010 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I just watched too.
Totally forgot he came back out with 5 seconds left. Toney should’ve ran across the ring and tagged him.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 26, 2010 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Thats right, he beat a 31-0 champion that was never stopped
And by a large margin. One of his many great nights.
by SimplePsych on Aug 26, 2010 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, we have heard this as well, many times
But if Toney wins, you will again disappear, so your stuff is getting tired.
by SimplePsych on Aug 26, 2010 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
His stuff is getting tired?
You’re the one who seems to be unable to consider anything other than the Toney from ten years ago. Let me spell it out for you.
He’s shot.
His punch resistance is nearly completely gone.
His reactions now suck.
He is feather fisted at heavyweight.
His speed is now negligible.
He may have trained hard for this fight, but years of training poorly don’t just go away in nine months.
Toney could land the miracle punch, anyone could, but to say that it’s likely shows a complete mis – interpretation of where Toney stands in 2010.
If I’m wrong, I will happily come on here and let you call me an idiot, but if Toney gets beaten, I certainly won’t do the same. I won’t even bat an eyelid.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Aug 27, 2010 8:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Funny how fast everyone changes thier minds. A month ago Toney was seem as nothing but a problem.
by AndrewBlakesley on Aug 26, 2010 6:14 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
A month is quite a long time for a mind to change...
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Aug 26, 2010 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that Randy vs. Toney
is a LOT less of a freakshow than Herschel Walker vs. Greg Nagy
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
I don't even see how Walker v Nagy was a freakshow fight.
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
Twitter me and what not.
I absolutely agree with the article too. I think people entering competitive bouts from other walks of life is interesting. I don’t necessarily think Silvia vs. Pudz falls under that category, but I’ve changed my mind about these two.
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 26, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I think everyone knew Walker would beat him even without a fight, but the fight was right in line as far as records and the like go for a professional debut, and in the case of Walker, I’ve heard about him talking about MMA as far as fifteen, twenty years ago, so he’s definitely into it.
I think Sylvia v Pudz is pretty darn freakshow. Toney/Couture is kind of, but not as bad. If Toney was fighting someone other than Couture, I wouldn’t say it is, but considering he asked for Lesnar.. well, you know.
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
Twitter me and what not.
Freakshow
I don’t know why people are calling this a freakshow. Whether Toney wind or not he is still a professional fighter just because he is one demesional doesn’t make it a freakshow. A freakshow in my opinion is Jose a nan with no experiance or little to none coming in is a freakshow in my opinion not a boxer who is trying his hand at mma.
by Bloodsport on Aug 26, 2010 9:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Given Walker's credentials I disagree.
Toronto FC - Where road games are forfeited and we STILL have no idea how to play from behind.
who cares really?
As long as this brings eyes on the sport, and allows it to grow then I’m all up for these type of fights…
Within reason of course. Walker seems like he really is trying to dedicate himself to be a fighter as far fetched as that sounds.
Hell, I think Herschel Walker is a more dedicated fighter these days then let’s say a, Bobby Lashley!
That may not sound like much, but anything to get more fans in the seats, and more people watching events
I appreciate that Walker had so many nice things to say about MMA
Toney has been shit talking MMA the whole time. It is very different
You know why I can't wait for this fight to happen?
Its so I can stop seeing James Toney’s mug and name on 90% of the posts on BE. <3 you guys, but I’m at the eye rolling stage.
Their both fans of MMA
The difference is that Herschel is a modest(rich) man who is student of the sport;
Toney is a fighter(crazy) and a needs to compete(broke).
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 26, 2010 6:52 PM EDT reply actions
The big difference is that Herschel is an elite athlete who takes MMA very seriously. The way he grappled did not look like some average guy just making his MMA debut. This guy knows what he’s doing and is dedicating himself 100% to it.
James Toney on the other hand is training with some sort of Kenpo death touch guy, and for all intents and purposes is only doing this as a publicity stunt to get a fight in boxing.
Remember, the UFC only signed James Toney when they heard that he had gone to Strikeforce after they turned had turned him down. Strikeforce was going to sign him to fight Herschel Walker. The UFC didn’t want Strikeforce to have that big money fight, so they signed Toney before Strikeforce could.
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Thats what I was saying, Brian.
Just in less words.
Herschel = curious and hardworking
Toney = desperate and lazy.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 26, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, come on.
So Toney is lazy and Walker is hardworking…black/white. Yes, Toney wants to stay relevant, earn himself some money, whatever, but I wouldn’t put a freaking dime on Herschel Walker in a match-up with Randy Couture, no matter what the odds, no matter how many push-ups he did beforehand. At least Toney brings some kind of truly superior skill into the ring, something that surely has Couture dotting his i’s. Despite all of the sneering and hand-wringing about Toney’s showmanship, he will be a threat to Couture when the door closes. Would Herschel Walker be a threat?
Neither man is a freak-show contestant! Herschel is a great athlete and student of the game, and Toney is a world-class pugilist. Believe me, Couture respects the fighting ability of his opponent, because his opponent is a guy who usually goes in a ring and wins.
by Charlie Custer on Aug 26, 2010 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree completely
I’m just talking about peoples perception.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 26, 2010 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Herschel Walker would be able to stick around in the cage longer with Randy Couture than James Toney can, for no other reason than he can grapple. People have latched onto this idea that James Toney has this sick knockout power and so he’s some sort of threat to Randy, when in reality he’s no more threatening on the feet than any other MMA striker Randy has faced. James Toney was a good technical boxer about a million years ago. That doesn’t translate into being able to land a kill shot in a 30 second time frame on a good MMA fighter, which is a tall task for a really good experienced MMA fighter. For a guy who’s never fought MMA before? Yeah…….
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I just don’t agree that Toney is no more threatening on the feet than any other striker Couture has faced. While he may not be knocking people’s heads off, he’s a deceptively quick and accurate puncher. Boxing is all about hitting when the opportunity presents itself. You talk about a 30 second time frame…any boxer has to find that momentary window and capitalize. I don’t think there’s any way he will just put Randy to sleep…But the X factors are the gloves and Toney’s ability to put effective combinations together, even in the clinch. He’s can out “dirty-box” Randy. If he can avoid takedowns with the strength of his trunk, or slick movement, or by whatever means early in the fight, then it will be interesting. None of this seems probable when you take a look at Toney the man, but he is a determined guy and the shock potential is all there in his pedigree. He has better stand-up than Minotauro and Coleman. The testament to this fact will be the alacrity with which Couture changes levels.
by Charlie Custer on Aug 26, 2010 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well, if he starts outworking Couture in the clinch (which is highly, highly doubtful), Couture can always just dump him on his head. He always holds that trump card.
Listen, Randy could probably shoot a double within the first five seconds of the match and put Toney on his back. How much he wants to play around with Toney before putting him on his back is up to him. Toney is going to have an extremely small window to land any offense, and his style and power just doesn’t lend itself to putting a guy away in that time frame. Asking anyone to put Randy Couture on his ass in 30 seconds is a tall task, let alone a washed up pro boxer making his MMA debut.
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by Brian Mayes on Aug 26, 2010 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Keep in mind BJ gets a cut of ppv
So of course anything bringing in more cash for him is beneficial.
His comments are not just for his financial benefit. BJ more than likely never had to work a day in his life he just really loves the sport of fighting.
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 26, 2010 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
his people own everything around there I guess. That’s why he’s always had access to the best everything.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 26, 2010 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions
The fight by itself is not a freakshow...
but james toney’s picture above it’s a major photoshop disaster!!!
You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Joe Pesci. Two reasons; first of all, I think he's a good actor. Okay. To me, that counts. Second; he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't fuck around. Doesn't fuck around.
George Carlin
BEFORE/AFTER PHOTOSHOP


Option A: His workout really paid off
Option B: UFC’s photoshop guy deserve an award
Option C: UFC’s photoshop guy should be fired
You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Joe Pesci. Two reasons; first of all, I think he's a good actor. Okay. To me, that counts. Second; he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't fuck around. Doesn't fuck around.
George Carlin
The waistline is telling me the answer is C Bob
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 26, 2010 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
one of these
things is not like the other….
seriously though, is it just me, or does the untouched photo make Toney look older?
It's a good thing I caught this reply...
Because I was two seconds from submitting a reply ripping apart the awful Photoshop job done on this pic. It was like a slap in the face it was so glaringly obvious.
This kind of stuff is common affair these days but I just didn’t expect fighter portraits in a brand like the UFC to be… well, faked. I guess they’re really trying to sell Toney as much as they possibly can, but IMO, their marketing department really crossed the line with this one. Taking off a few wrinkles from Randy Couture’s face is one thing. But being so ashamed of a fighter that you have to literally take 30 pounds off a guy (and do so in a terribly obvious way)… yeah, someone should be fired for this. Seriously, that super-sharp and crisp waist line around the trunks, and the unusual clarity of the edges of his midsection… I’ve seen high schoolers do better Photoshop work than this.
the problem with this comparison
is that Walker had numerous positives:
1) He’s freakishly in shape. I wish I was in that shape and he’s got close to two decades on me.
2) He treated the sport with respect and even reverence. He went to a top MMA gym, worked a while and spoke with respect for the hard work and skills MMA practitioners have.
Toney on the other hand:
1) Looks like how a middle-aged man generally looks – doughy and not in great shape.
2) Has been disrespectful of anyone and everyone and is clearly doing this for a payday and not because he has some desire to prove something the way Walker did.
Yes it’s trash talk and hype, but all it does is breed contempt from those that might otherwise wish him well.
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by Cory Braiterman on Aug 26, 2010 9:12 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
BJ Penn is right about Toney
The book of knowledge adds a chapter.
█♣█
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who -- Jay-Z
James Toney and Hershel Walker don’t belong in the same sentence, let alone the same headline.
One is 41, holds a (meaningless) boxing belt and has, oh I don’t know, between seventy and eighty professional competitive bouts in a combat sport. The other won the Heisman four years before I was born and got to be on TV with an 0-0 combined amateur and professional record.
Not. The. Same.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 26, 2010 11:53 PM EDT reply actions
If you have something against the Walker fight you have hate the sport or something. Not really, but come on.
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
Twitter me and what not.
i agree
i dont mind hershel bringing in more ppl to see wateva, but i dont like the fact he was on the main card fighting sum scub.. toney is different he is a current boxing champion he deserves main card status if not main event
Toney isn't a current boxing champion
He is a very low level titlist. He isn’t even a top ten HW right now.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Aug 27, 2010 8:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Is Toney for real??
Is all of his prefight talk for real? Does he really believe this stuff – or is he just hyping things up for the show. I hope its the latter!

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