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James Toney, Shane Carwin and the Shadow of Steroids Over UFC 118

Photo by Scott Peterson via MMA Weekly

Given the discussion about Fedor Emelianenko requesting that Alistair Overeem undergo extensive "Olympic style" drug testing before he'd be willing to fight him, I thought I would post some updates on the Shane Carwin situation and also discuss UFC 118 headliner James Toney's checkered past with PEDs.

First up, James Toney. Here's wikipedia on his career low point:

On April 30, 2005, he defeated John Ruiz by a unanimous decision in a 12-round match for the World Boxing Association (WBA) heavyweight Championship. However, as of May 18, 2005, it was [1] reported that Toney failed his post-fight drug test, testing positive for the anabolic steroid stanozolol. This led to the New York Athletic Commission changing the bout's official outcome to a "no-contest", deducting the win from Toney's career record and banning him from boxing for 90 days. The WBA ordered that Ruiz be reinstated as its champion and that Toney be ineligible for another WBA Heavyweight title shot for two years. Toney defended himself by claiming that the steroids were given to him by a doctor to treat an injured arm that occurred during his victory over Rydell Booker in his previous fight. Toney was also subject to a civil lawsuit by Ruiz claiming that Toney's illegal use of steroids gave him an edge in the fight.

The Boxing Insider commented at the time:

Why? Why did this have to happen? Here we had a physically limited heavyweight - he's just about 5-10 with an unheavyweight-like body frame - who basically dominated the well-established John Ruiz with his fighting genius and incomparable mental strength and determination. With his WBA title, Toney was all ready and primed to compete against any man in the world. Toney against any heavyweight out there was going to be guaranteed excitement.

Unfortunately, if this is all true and Toney knowingly used the steroids, the sport has lost one of it's finest performers. And it is a bit sad. Consider: Toney did not use steroids to beat up on a longshot journeyman contender like Richard Hall. This was a three-time champion allegedly using something illegal to, as he says, help speed the recovery of his biceps and triceps injuries.

And now that it's in the open, Toney must face the consequences. The likely 90-day suspension could be lights out on his boxing career at the highest level - he is 36. Unfortunately for Toney, there was no cover-up to hide the truth here.

And here we are five short years later and Toney, a man who was effectively exiled from the top ranks of boxing for failing drug tests is the star of the show at UFC 118.

I have been accused of being "pro-steroids" because I am extremely skeptical that the current testing regime catches anyone but the most incompetent of rules breakers and I also disagree with some of the choices of chemicals to ban. But let me state again, I'm for more testing, stricter punishments for violators and better fighter safety.

Let's talk Shane Carwin in the full entry.

Ufc_118_button_medium

Star-divide

According to Dave Meltzer's Wrestling Observer (subscription required and if you really want to keep up with MMA it's a must) MMA fans shouldn't be shocked that we're welcoming Toney into the sport:

When I met (Shane Carwin) in 2006, he was 289 ripped and when I asked him if he could cut to 265 (the weight he'd need to be for UFC), he laughed and said there was no way he could. Two years later, he was in UFC and fighting at 254 without cutting and physically he looked like a completely different person.

I think almost everyone realizes that when it comes to the upper level of MMA fighters, a lot of them are using PEDs. My feeling from talking with someone who directly distributed is that the people who say everyone or 90% of the top fighters are on them are people covering up for their own insecurities and justifying usage.

That said, the percentage is significant. Dennis Hallman was on Inside MMA a few weeks ago and said it was no less than 50%. When going through fighters at one prominent gym from someone who knew, person by person, we did end up right at 50% and again, some who did and didn't from that list would surprise you.

Everyone who is cut up people think is on, and that's often not the case. Everyone with a soft body people think aren't on, and Tim Sylvia and Josh Barnett have both failed tests multiple times. But the point is, steroids do change the game (one fighter who is very sophisticated on use noted to me about certain opponents that he's trained with both on and off and he mentioned one guy as almost a world beater on when he trained with him and he was `nothing' off, and talked about being genuinely scared of another fighter-keep in mind this was in a non-drug tested environment--who was a very dangerous and actually legendary striker at any weight and had in a very short period of time had suddenly packed on 20 extra pounds of muscle and completely changed his body).

And if you compete at a high level clean, you are in some ways at a competitive disadvantage. In other ways, you're not because a lot of the most mentally tough guys in the sport were not steroid users (and there are obvious exceptions to that rule as well) and in this sport, mental toughness, conditioning and technique are usually more important than strength. Some steroids can help with conditioning and others can hurt, but they don't give you technique and the mood and physical swings from them wreck havoc on some people's mental toughness.

The current testing system means nothing in most states and in the states like Nevada where it is legit, you still know well ahead of time the day you are being tested. They do have the power to test you off season, but it's rarely done, and if you aren't a top guy headlining a show in the next two months, there is no fear of it happening. California was very real before, but when you go from people failing tests nearly every weekend to nobody failing tests for months, either everyone smartened up at once or something has changed. Still, the Carwin story had no media legs at all as even though he's a UFC headliner, UFC is still not covered by the major media pros much, like major league baseball or the NFL.

For his part, Shane Carwin is maintaining his silence as this twitter exchange shows:

wclarke18 @shanecarwin you plan on making a statement about the steroids anytime soon? Dont mean to be a dick just curious/concerned.

Shane Carwin: @wclarke18 no comment will be made.

Roy Nelson, with whom Carwin had a twitter feud last week after Nelson commented on the news, talked to 5th Round about the controversy:

"I don't know. I wasn't even trying to sell a fight. I wasn't even talking about Shane Carwin," Nelson stated. "It was about steroids. I'm actually about trying to clean up our sport and keep integrity in our sport. That's all I'm trying to do."

When asked how his bubbly belly would fare against Carwin's chiseled frame, Nelson appeared confident in his chances if the contest came to fruition.

"Advantages; he has age on me, he definitely has size, a better supplement routine, he hits hard. There are a lot of things he brings to the table that he's better at," Nelson admitted. "I can definitely say I have better [jiu jitsu] than him."

The yawning abyss between reality and perception in these issues just kills me. The handful of fighters who apparently don't know enough about PEDs to beat the tests get relentlessly crucified while the guys who are a little smarter get away clean. This is a classic illustration of the American "just don't get caught" ethic. 

It's time for an open and honest discussion of steroids, HGH and other "performance enhancing drugs" that takes a hard look at what the dangers really are, who is being endangered, and how best to protect the health of MMA fighters. 

Blanket statements like "Drugs are bad, ok?" "He's a roider because he looks like one!" and "He's never tested positive!" don't get us very far. The current system is completely broken. We need a fix.

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Punishment creates incentives not to get caught.

It does not create incentives not to use.

The “don’t get caught ethic” you describe is a natural consequence of the incentives in place. People act in their own interests, and those actions are driven by the incentives extant in their environment.

Expecting anything else is just naïve.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Aug 26, 2010 4:03 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Rec’d – This!

Human nature isn’t going to control itself

by ThaiGae on Aug 26, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

QUOTE

“It’s time for an open and honest discussion of steroids, HGH and other “performance enhancing drugs” that takes a hard look at what the dangers really are, who is being endangered, and how best to protect the health of MMA fighters. "

It’s not the health danger of the PED’s that concerns me, it’s the probablity that ‘faster, higher, stronger’ is going to lead to a death in a major MMA event. How hard does a guy have to be able to hit? How hard does a guy need to be able to squeeze a choke? How much endurance does a guy need to reign down a never ending barrage of PED enhanced blows to a ‘less enhanced’ opponent’s skull?

by Daveyboy on Aug 26, 2010 4:05 PM EDT reply actions  

there's no evidence that PEDs make supermen

my understanding is that most of them help injuries heal faster so athletes can train more. that’s a use i personally have no problem with as long as the long-term health effects are not bad.
better nutrition during childhood is what really creates big strong dangerous men. shall we ban that too?

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Aug 26, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not so sure. Genetics plays a big role, but if you give the right fuel to an individual who is blessed with certain genes it can make them bigger and stronger. They still need natural talent. Take Alex Rodriguez for example. You look at the Alex that signed with the Texas Rangers versus what he looks like a couple of years into playing there he looks like he turned into a superman. Still hit around the same amount of HR’s, there was never a visible spike in performance but his endurance and durability was enhanced. He was still going to hit HR’s but they were going a lot farther. Same thing with Bonds but to a much more exaggerated degree. And he is huge. If a fighter, who is already physically gifted, fuels that and becomes a bigger, stronger fighter with more endurance it at the very least gives a competitive advantage. He still has to know how to throw a jab but there will be more umph on that jab. I’m more concerned about the court of public opinion. If something serious happens to a fighter as a result of a fighter who is later discovered to be a user I fear for the sport.

by memitim on Aug 26, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Put it this way...

The evidence is in many other sports. Did Mcgwire smash a baseball harder because he was on the juice? Obviously.

I’m sorry Nate but it doesn’t take a genius to extrapolate that if PED’s can build bigger stronger weightlifter, PED’s can build a harder hitting, stronger and more dangerous fighter.

“PERIOD.”

by Daveyboy on Aug 26, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

mma has weight classes

Only heavyweights can weigh what macguire did. Its the muscle mass That helped him hit all those hr’s.

by the-gentle-way on Aug 26, 2010 5:31 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Mark McGwire was 6-5. Not to many middleweights at that height.

by memitim on Aug 26, 2010 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cross over

Take a non-steriod Bonds vs. a steroid Bonds, give them both a bat and have them smash a block of ice……who do you think would do more damage?

by Daveyboy on Aug 26, 2010 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is a little naive. My understanding is that (certain) PED’s really and truly do enhance performance – this shouldn’t be too shocking too anyone.

The idea that mostly they “just” help w/ recovery is I think wrong, b/c (if I understand correctly) muscle is built basically by “recovering” from exercise. (Or at least, the two processes are highly analogous.)

Even if it was “just” recovery, that is a huge huge advantage in a sport where nobody fights at 100% and dealing w/ the constant wear & tear of training camp is a huge problem.

by jhf884 on Aug 26, 2010 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

What they (anabolic steroids) actually do is

Allow much faster recovery. Where this comes into play is the recovery from the micro tears that occur in muscle tissue as a regular part of the training/growth cycle.

The anabolics allow one to train harder and heavier without the sort of “over training” effects that would manifest in someone not on them (think Roger Clemens’ legendarily difficult workouts).

What you are doing in effect is shortening the time horizon needed to build muscle from the usual max possible gain of 1/4 – 1/2 pound per week (assuming already training well, including correct diet & rest).

In other words, a guy who trains heavily weighing say 200 (at 8% BF) who, depending on genetics, could realistically expect to add 12-25 pounds of lean mass in a year (if training for size gains) might make the same gains (or more if its their first time to use) in only 6-8 weeks with a well designed anabolic + training program.

Of course, the rub for most people is that when you enhance muscle building like this, the various connective tissues aren’t similarly enhanced, thus the proliferation of various soft tissue tears among pro athletes.

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer

Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...

by BigDNotDallas on Aug 27, 2010 2:53 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Proper diet, proper training, proper weight cutting also improve performance. Shall we ban these as well?

by capital L on Aug 27, 2010 7:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wonder who this is about?
one fighter who is very sophisticated on use noted to me… and talked about being genuinely scared of another fighter-keep in mind this was in a non-drug tested environment—who was a very dangerous and actually legendary striker at any weight and had in a very short period of time had suddenly packed on 20 extra pounds of muscle and completely changed his body

"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse

by Chris Barton on Aug 26, 2010 4:08 PM EDT reply actions  

Not too difficult when you go up to a weight class that’s sixty pounds wide.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

by Neil Manich on Aug 26, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or are entering an open weight GP.

"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe

by pdl on Aug 26, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I feel like the loser kid

who doesn’t get the joke.

"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse

by Chris Barton on Aug 26, 2010 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm just saying,

some great fighters gained about 20 lbs for a PRIDE open weight grand prix and later dropped to middleweight. That’s all.

"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe

by pdl on Aug 26, 2010 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seems like you and Kid Nate are thinking of the same guy

The guy that nobody wants mentioned here really.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

by Neil Manich on Aug 26, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wait no

We are all referencing three different guys. Christ, that description fits a few people doesn’t it.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

by Neil Manich on Aug 26, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

This just got me super depressed

Because one of those fighters was my first truly favorite fighter to watch.

Oh, and how has nobody posted a timeline of Overeem’s growth by this point? I’m disappointed in BE today.

by CaliforniaCreamPuff on Aug 26, 2010 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

“That Guy” came to mind, but it doesn’t seem to actually imply “him” when I think about it. The “any weight” comment and the “changed his body”. “He” did get some extra weight but his body didn’t seem to change really and he went right back down, instead of being a career type change which is how I am reading it.

"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse

by Chris Barton on Aug 26, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wandy comes

to mind but my love for him has me blind, we are good friends after all.

by Riney on Aug 26, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

How dare you

"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni

by midwestbred on Aug 26, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

i was thinking of someone smaller actually

someone who has actually failed some tests

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Aug 26, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

By tests you don’t mean actual steroid tests right? But a different drug test.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

by Neil Manich on Aug 26, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes

one that helps you …… sssssssssssssssssss

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Aug 26, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gotcha

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

by Neil Manich on Aug 26, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

damn I’m still lost. I have had three names that have gone through my head during this convo.

by DayGeaux on Aug 26, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dude just pretend like you know who it might be say some random cryptic shit and if you can add a pic of a lol cat.

we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea

by Barack Lesnar on Aug 26, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pssshhh oh that guy. I’ve always suspected him.

I HATE Lol Cats

by DayGeaux on Aug 26, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

See now I’m thinking “how does this guy not like lol cats” and of course you know that guy too

we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea

by Barack Lesnar on Aug 26, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Shmanderlei Shmalves and Shmovereem fit that description.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

by Neil Manich on Aug 26, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

If it was that "Welterweight"

when was he in an untested environment?

"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse

by Chris Barton on Aug 26, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's that guy from PRIDE

/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun

by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 26, 2010 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not Alves

/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun

by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 26, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

please forgive my spelling

Me and my Droid are fighting.

by the-gentle-way on Aug 26, 2010 5:46 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

You are forgiven. I know I couldn’t fight a robot and worry about grammer.

by DayGeaux on Aug 26, 2010 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can tell you from personal experience

I took a prohormone called H-drol(legal and for sale) for 4 weeks last November. They say this drug is a weak version of Halodrol, which is a decent anabolic, but no where near the strength of Testosterone. I stacked it with Cell Tech.

I went from from a cut 151 to a ripped 163 in 2 weeks. I had more energy, slept better, trained way longer and more intense, ate a lot more, plus I was super horny and emotional. My recovery was practically nonexistent, I had to make myself rest.
I swear to God I was able to dunk in my school’s gym off one step, in my jeans. I hadn’t really dunked since I blew out my knee. My barbell curl went from 10 reps of 80 to 5 reps of 100lbs Really good stuff, if you’re into that sort of thing.

"I trained with Steven Seagal."

by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 26, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

*recovery time was non existent.

"I trained with Steven Seagal."

by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 26, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Was that the best ph you’ve tried?

we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea

by Barack Lesnar on Aug 26, 2010 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

Its the real deal. I’ve heard P-mag is really good too, I guess its a really similar compound. Better for bulking than H-drol. They both give you clean gains that you can keep.

"I trained with Steven Seagal."

by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 26, 2010 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

What do you use for liver support? So far we are on the same page I think

we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea

by Barack Lesnar on Aug 26, 2010 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

For me

I am firmly in the “regulate steroids” camp. I don’t think a unbeatable system can ever be created or maintained, so let the guys just play in the sand.

"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse

by Chris Barton on Aug 26, 2010 4:09 PM EDT reply actions  

yes

let’s cut out the incentives to lie and encourage athletes to be open about what they’re doing so it’s safer for everyone and fans can know everything that goes into making their favorite fighters.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Aug 26, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not only that

In a sane world, athletes would be able to openly rely on the expertise of doctors to better ensure both safety and improved performance. Getting medical advice from Roger Clemons, for example, is a highly crazy idea.

by capital L on Aug 27, 2010 7:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

This won't eliminate cheating, and there are plenty of unsafe PEDs that will continue to be used.

What you’re describing is a middle ground that doesn’t make any sense.

I hope that you’re kidding and I’m missing the sarcarsm….

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Aug 27, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

that was such bullshit

who cares.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Aug 26, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

High Times

And N.O.R.M.L and the tabloids oh and pot heads. pot heads fucking love that pictures.

by the-gentle-way on Aug 26, 2010 4:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

For an olympian his form really sucks.

we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea

by Barack Lesnar on Aug 26, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

what I really wanna know is, where did somebody get a ROOR with a percolator?

a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon

by eastcoastatlas on Aug 26, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

West Coast ftw

we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea

by Barack Lesnar on Aug 26, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol

See potheads love that pic.

by the-gentle-way on Aug 26, 2010 4:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

He's a natural for the "Bong Olympics"!

"A man that does not fall, does not stand up."

Chael Sonnen: The true p4p KING!

by CROOKS on Aug 26, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

agreed

I don’t care. Just thought it was funny.

by DayGeaux on Aug 26, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I got better shit than that.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 26, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

You mean properly harvested and not a leafy fluffball?

we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea

by Barack Lesnar on Aug 26, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cut the damn Female’s! Some one will be hung if I find a seed!

by DayGeaux on Aug 26, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

*sigh

It has been a long time since I have touched the stuff…

by truck on Aug 26, 2010 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

You sure you remember what youre missing?

we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea

by Barack Lesnar on Aug 26, 2010 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah I had some last night

& even Ive forgotten what I’m missing..

Be like water..

by theredoctober on Aug 26, 2010 9:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Also anyone who thinks that the mj wouldve had any effect on his performance other than to make him extremely sleepy & giggly needs to give it a shot themselves. I have trouble making it outside to check the mail somedays let alone compete athletically at any level..
Any drugs other than specifically designed performance inhancing drugs & supplements would just be distracting in my opinion anyways. That being said I can kind of see why Nick Diaz got popped after fighting gomi, I mean you could see the purple haze protecting his face from the shots & his eyes were nearly closed up at the start of the fight.. Not to mention the way too obvious clouds of pungent smoke pouring up out of his corner between rounds.

Be like water..

by theredoctober on Aug 26, 2010 9:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Look alls I'm sayin is

If you’re going to rock it then rock it, just don’t go blowing it in everyone elses face..

Be like water..

by theredoctober on Aug 26, 2010 9:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I need to watch that fight again, maybe I’m high but I don’t remember that.

we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea

by Barack Lesnar on Aug 26, 2010 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually the smoke couldve been puffing out of my living room

in between rounds, I’m a bit hazy on that..

Be like water..

by theredoctober on Aug 26, 2010 10:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

It’s cool man I understand

we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea

by Barack Lesnar on Aug 26, 2010 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I used to do drugs. I mean I still do, but I used to too.

by DayGeaux on Aug 26, 2010 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Carwin doesn't have to comment

The big sites didn’t even care about it. The average fan doesn’t even know. All he has to do is keep quiet and its going to go away. If he makes any statement its just going to make his case more obvious and hurt him in the long run.

That fucking sucks. This is the problem with the MMA media; nobody is there to make him accountable.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

by Neil Manich on Aug 26, 2010 4:12 PM EDT reply actions  

True

I guess that means its getting better. Still, the Zuffa sites aren’t touching this.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

by Neil Manich on Aug 26, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Although not impossible...

I think it’s extremely difficult to maintain and keep a chiselled body type that some athletes claim to be blessed for having.

Maybe the only way to stop this in the sport is to have more unannounced drug tests

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but wasn’t Barnett’s last test unannounced which is why he was initially caught?

by devious1 on Aug 26, 2010 4:16 PM EDT reply actions  

it seems that way, but you have to realize it is their full time job. It seems hard for us because we don’t get paid to be in shape, they have the time and the resources to get and stay in ridiculous shape.

by Phildo on Aug 26, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don't think it was a random test

He wasn’t licensed in CA and needed a test to get his license, if I remember right.

by Tedd Welch on Aug 26, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

it was part of a new program.

It was pretty far out for a standard test if I remember correctly.

by the-gentle-way on Aug 26, 2010 5:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Maintaining is not the issue

Except for the guys that do cycle trying to maintain their gains as much as possible.

Anabolics aren’t needed for someone training at the pro level to maintain, but to make significant gains over a very short period of time, sure.

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer

Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...

by BigDNotDallas on Aug 27, 2010 3:02 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

All the sports need to get together with the government to work together and figure this out. The way the system is currently situated, the people chasing balco, the people chasing clemens, the people in Alabama, and the people chasing Lance Armstrong are all chasing stuff that happened years ago. The people chasing them are chasing their tails, because by the time they figured out what happened 5 years ago, the chemists will have stuff made that will take another 10 years to catch.

i say keep testing as they are testing now, but give everyone (anyone who is now, was, or wants to be a professional athlete) a year or 2 to come clean to investigators about everything. Promise them they won’t be prosecuted, won’t be punished by their current leagues/halls of fame or whatnot, and figure out exactly what is going on. Once they figure out what people did in the past and are doing now, they can figure out what the best plan to move forward.

The technology is moving too fast for the current process to be productive at all.

by Phildo on Aug 26, 2010 4:19 PM EDT reply actions  

and isn't it only fair

to reexamine why we banned steroids in the first place? is there really evidence they’re that dangerous?
i’m 100% all for banning pain killers and stimulants during fights — that’s how guys get killed, but i want to see the evidence on steroids and HGH and have an honest debate. some drugs will be far too dangerous to use, some won’t.
but i see nothing wrong with drugs being taken to heal from injuries quickly so more training can be done, unless those drugs endanger the athletes.

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by Kid Nate on Aug 26, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

the stories of Ken Caminiti and a couple of high school athletes are pretty depressing. As well as all the pro wrestlers. But with all of them it’s hard to tell what is from head trauma, what is from steroids, what is from other drugs, and what is from general depression and how those things work together.

The horror stories are going to scare people off because we will never get the actual numbers and stats because the people who used and turned out ok have no incentive to talk. Nothing is going to get done when the media and the government continue to chase down and punish people for things that happened years ago.

by Phildo on Aug 26, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

the pro wrestling schedule is the most damaging thing

that’s where the need for uppers & downers comes from, to sleep and go again the next day, day after day. it’s a lot like being in a rock band but much worse because then there’s the head shots with chairs plus the roids.

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by Kid Nate on Aug 26, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

they take more bumps then anyother sport

Those boys are tougher than they are smart. Painkiller use becomes the norm for getting out of bed after awhile. I have a good friend that was an aspiring wrestler. Now he just has the pain.

by the-gentle-way on Aug 26, 2010 4:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

With Caminiti and pro wrestlers, you’re getting into pain killer addiction plus your standard alcoholism and coke habits, etc.

by Mike Fagan on Aug 26, 2010 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's more than healing from injuries quickly.

Here is a right up on Primobolan and its benefits. They make athletes bigger, stronger, and more durable. This is just the stuff we know about. There is designer stuff being made all the time. Scientists have stated they were just scratching the surface:

The Sports Nutrition market should benefit the most from this type of compound. Serious and weekend athletes could receive increased muscle mass, recovery, strength and decreased body fat. Natural increases in total and free testosterone concentrations while simultaneously decreasing estrogen and DHT make this the single most important ergogenic compound in an athletes arsenal. The weekend athlete can effectively utilize these compounds in conjunction with creatine and protein in order to improve their physiques and or performance. The serious athlete may do the same or use these compounds in conjunction with other performance enhancing compounds. The serious athlete could also use some of these compounds to jump start natural androgen production after a cycle of anabolic steroids. Anabolic steroids tend to shut down natural androgen production and increase estrogen levels, which can cause an androgen deficiency. Steroidal aromatase inhibitors could be used to counter these negative side effects. Bodybuilders use drugs like Clomiphene citrate (Clomid) in order block estrogen absorption and increase natural androgen production, but this is a powerful prescription pharmaceutical with its own set of side effects.

by memitim on Aug 26, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

FWIW

I would argue that the cortisone family of steroids (anti-inflamitory) have done far more to lengthen, enhance and generally improve athletic careers overall than any of the so-called PEDs.

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer

Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...

by BigDNotDallas on Aug 27, 2010 3:08 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

FWIW, Toney tested positive for steroids twice.

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by Brian Mayes on Aug 26, 2010 4:24 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah

Toney was another steroid user.It gets swept under the carpet more in boxng than it does in MMA,imo.
Roy Jones and Shane Mosley tested positive or admitted to using too,among others.
Holyfield was linked to an internet steroid supplier too.
Toney’s physique gives him away as an obvious PED user. :)

by Matt Mosley on Aug 26, 2010 4:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Dave Meltzer’s Wrestling Observer (subscription required and if you really want to keep up with MMA it’s a must)

Nate, you’re selling yourself short, BE is all I need/I don’t want to pay for something

a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon

by eastcoastatlas on Aug 26, 2010 4:36 PM EDT reply actions  

Um…I’d argue that the low point of Toney’s career was the second failed drug test when he was gifted a decision over Danny Batchelder. Then both he and Batchelder failed their tests. A true low point..

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 26, 2010 4:39 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

really?

Why is taking steroids a low point? Was when Diaz got his W over gomi taken away his low point? Neither one had too much to do with the outcome.

by the-gentle-way on Aug 26, 2010 4:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Batchelder was 1-3 in his 4 previous fights and has gone 0-3 since. Did Toney really need to be on PED’s for that fight? They couldn’t even get the fight on TV. And then he fights Danny and almost every media report of the event had people thinking Batchelder won the fight. Then BOTH guys test positive. If you don’t see why that set of circumstances would be the low point in a GREAT boxer’s career I dunno what to tell you.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 26, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

*and he won by split decision

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 26, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

this part is why its a low point

Not the roids. AND HE IS OLD is why he needs roids. Not because of who he is fighting.

by the-gentle-way on Aug 26, 2010 4:59 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

The steroids factor into it being a low point.

I’m not really willing to say that something that got him a years suspension when he was fighting a bum is a non-factor.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 26, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

touche

I concede defeat.

by the-gentle-way on Aug 26, 2010 5:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I seem to recall Toney going in front of the CSAC, verbally assaulting them, and getting his suspension reduced from 1 year to 6 months or something like this. This was at the exact same hearing where Hermes Franca got up, politely told the commision why he took steriods and fully admitted his guilt, and they slapped him with the full fine and suspension.

Josh Gross said it was one of the most amazing things he’d ever seen. Hermes Franca was basically totally forthcoming, and was punished to the full extent of the law. James Toney tells them to all go shove it, and he gets his sentence reduced.

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by Brian Mayes on Aug 26, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

that was a classic moment

i forgot that was hermes

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by Kid Nate on Aug 26, 2010 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I never heard that story until now

But then I thought, “After being born in California, lived there until I was 19, and had to deal with the government bullshit that comes with it, I could totally see that happening”

I was going to say that you could tell me anything short of (insert something drastic here) being done by a government employee in California and I would believe you, but then as I ran through a list of heinous shit, none of it would actually surprise me. Damn my state sucks.

by CaliforniaCreamPuff on Aug 26, 2010 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think we’ll see the low-point of james toney’s career in about 2 days

by nastyem on Aug 26, 2010 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Shane Carwin: @wclarke18 no comment will be made

Fucking weak. Sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling “La-la-la-la-la” isn’t going to make it go away. If you didn’t do it and wanted to clear your name wouldn’t you emphatically state that you DID NOT take steroids? I’m sorry but in the court of public opinion you are guilty until proven innocent and nothing he has done makes me think he didn’t use steroids.

by ufc4 on Aug 26, 2010 5:19 PM EDT reply actions  

if he had come out within a few days of the original report and categorically denied taking steroids, would you have believed him? i’m willing to bet the answer is ‘no.’ you say the in the court of public opinion it’s guilty until proven innocent, but a denial is not proof of innocence, so what difference does it make if he stays silent? it’s pretty much impossible for him to provide concrete proof that he did not take steroids, so the court of public opinion with view him as a roider either way, while staying silent guarantees that there will be no legal or civil ramifications (namely possible lawsuits from other involved parties).

a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon

by eastcoastatlas on Aug 26, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

look at what’s happening to armstrong and clemens now. It would be dumb to say anything without a lawyer and an agreement from the government that they aren’t going after him.

by Phildo on Aug 26, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Going on record and saying he is innocent (even if he isn’t) will do nothing to damage his case.

by ufc4 on Aug 26, 2010 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

It would get people talking about it

If he stays quiet, its just going to go away. And only us on the internet are going to remember.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

by Neil Manich on Aug 26, 2010 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Obviously not every bit of information has come out on this story yet, a simple “no comment” from Carwin will not necessarily make it go away.

by ufc4 on Aug 26, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fair point

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

by Neil Manich on Aug 26, 2010 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

It all depends on if he has to go in front of a Grand Jury. If he does then it will all come out.

by memitim on Aug 26, 2010 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I doubt that will happen, but even then you know a lot of these reporters are gonna be digging for more dirt in this case and more than likely they will find it.

by ufc4 on Aug 26, 2010 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Spoiler alert: Most athletes have used steroids at some point.

I don’t understand the ire at Carwin in this. This happened some time ago and is pretty much entirely unsurprising.

by capital L on Aug 27, 2010 7:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

He was in the low-to-mid 250's

In his first fight in the UFC (Christian Wellisch, sp?), and possibly his next fight or 2 in the UFC as well.

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer

Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...

by BigDNotDallas on Aug 27, 2010 3:19 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

He was 252 (ripped) in debut and 264 (ripped) in his second fight, 259 (ripped) with Gonzaga, 275 (fat) with Mir and supposedly around 280 (fat) with Lesnar.

"...I don't want to save the World, I don't even want to save me. We're so boring that we don't event want to save ourselves...There's nothing left to say, we're so fucking boring. Let it die I say. Let there be a new beginning...It's awful. Goodnight"

by dancingChicken on Aug 27, 2010 6:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Notice that 2nd fight took place where?

In good old England with no testing

/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 27, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that looks suspicious. Although Leben was busted for steroids on the same night.

"...I don't want to save the World, I don't even want to save me. We're so boring that we don't event want to save ourselves...There's nothing left to say, we're so fucking boring. Let it die I say. Let there be a new beginning...It's awful. Goodnight"

by dancingChicken on Aug 27, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

I doubt they tested ALL fighters

The main eventers and maybe a couple others

/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 27, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re probably right. There were no commission in UK, they had to pay for the tests from their own pocket, so they were likely economizing the costs.

"...I don't want to save the World, I don't even want to save me. We're so boring that we don't event want to save ourselves...There's nothing left to say, we're so fucking boring. Let it die I say. Let there be a new beginning...It's awful. Goodnight"

by dancingChicken on Aug 27, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

any chance he is talking about Badr Hari?

“…and talked about being genuinely scared of another fighter-keep in mind this was in a non-drug tested environment—who was a very dangerous and actually legendary striker at any weight and had in a very short period of time had suddenly packed on 20 extra pounds of muscle and completely changed his body).”

by J_Maddux on Aug 26, 2010 6:05 PM EDT reply actions  

HOW ABOUT THIS?

If they fail a test for PED’s then BANISH THEM FROM THE SPORT! Then I bet fighters would stop using it.

by J_Maddux on Aug 26, 2010 6:17 PM EDT reply actions  

nope

and given the various athletic commissions’ well earned reputation for incompetence that would be grossly stupid and unfair. You know that when the CSAC got new executives and they reviewed the drug testing protocol of the previous regime, they concluded it was so bad that it would be better to go a few months with no testing while they developed a new system than to keep using the old system.

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by Kid Nate on Aug 26, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

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