UFC 118 Preview: James Toney vs. Randy Couture and the Translation of Boxing Techniques
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 24, 2010 5:30 PM EDT
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I have up a piece today at SBNation.com in which I talk a little about boxing technique as it translates to MMA and how I feel Toney's skills will translate to a fight with Randy Couture. The larger point of the article is that boxers don't possess some sort of rare power especially in an MMA context. Where the increased ability to knock someone out from comes from is the ability to throw more accurate punches with better technique. Here's a taste of the article in hopes of enticing you over to SB Nation's headquarters to take in the full piece:
Here is a list of men with at least 10 pro boxing bouts and 5 pro MMA bouts:
Marcus Davis - Pro boxing record: 17-1-2 (12 KO), MMA record: 17-6 (6 KO)
Chris Lytle - Pro boxing record: 13-1-1 (7 KO), MMA record: 29-17-5 (4 KO)
KJ Noons - Pro boxing record: 12-2 (5 KO), MMA record: 10-2 (8 KO)
Jeremy Williams - Pro boxing record: 42-5-1 (35 KO), MMA record: 5-0 (3 KO)
Despite a lot of talk from people who follow both sports there does not appear to be a direct correlation between having experience as a pro boxer and being a massive KO artist in mixed martial arts. This comes down to the rather obvious differences in the sports. The threat of takedowns and kicks take away the ability of a boxer to sit down on their punches and deliver them with full power. That threat can be witnessed with clarity in this exchange between Chris Lytle and Muay Thai stylist Thiago Alves:
More after the jump due to a large .gif in the entry:
You can see Lytle throwing an overhand right to close distance and covering up from the return left hand of Alves only to eat a nasty leg kick with his left foot still planted. Lytle is an experienced and successful MMA veteran, he knows what to expect in an MMA bout. How will James Toney handle the first time he instinctively goes to his boxing defense and eats a leg kick or gets double legged for a takedown?
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Toney has no chance
"If I woke up looking like that, I would run towards the nearest living thing and kill it." -Master Shake
We have to take the amulet to the banana king!
by II SMASH II on Aug 24, 2010 5:36 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Also
When was Toneys last boxing fight Brent?
"If I woke up looking like that, I would run towards the nearest living thing and kill it." -Master Shake
We have to take the amulet to the banana king!
by II SMASH II on Aug 24, 2010 5:37 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Toney's last fight was...
Last September against Matthew Greer who came in with a 12-5 record. He beat him in 2 rounds but Greer buzzed him a little early.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 24, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Isnt Toneys contract non-exclusive
"If I woke up looking like that, I would run towards the nearest living thing and kill it." -Master Shake
We have to take the amulet to the banana king!
by II SMASH II on Aug 24, 2010 5:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
No one in boxing wants him for anything
The Greer fight wasn’t televised.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Aug 24, 2010 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Who J Who?
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 24, 2010 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions
But yes...
I’ll have a big Penn/Edgar piece up tomorrow.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 24, 2010 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait a minute
How dare you try to entice me to check out another site. You seriously expect me to click that link to read the rest? Really? This is absolutely unacceptable Brookhouse.
On a serious note….does Couture have the reaction time to use all his MMA stand up tools against Toney if need be?
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
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And Alves leg kick is a far cry from a Couture one but your point is valid. And I don’t know enough about boxing to say if any of the above guys you mentioned have even fought any decent competition, but Toney has for sure. Still though for a boxing layman like myself it makes sense.
Ride the Tiger!
by doonerthesooner on Aug 24, 2010 5:39 PM EDT reply actions
Yeah...
both points are completely valid. Randy’s not going to blast him with an Alves level leg kick. But Toney isn’t going to take a leg kick like Lytle.
And Toney absolutely has fought longer and better competition than the other guys, but they did have regional level success (well…Williams had more success than the regional level) and spent a lot of time refining boxing technique. Toney is a much better boxer but it’s more the point that just having good boxing technique doesn’t make for a lights out (no pun intended) puncher.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 24, 2010 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Isn’t there an article/interview with Lytle or Davis talking about how pure boxing doesn’t work in mma? I think it’s Davis, but he gives a good rundown of how and why boxing alone doesn’t work in mma.
yes
it’s a very interesting piece. Marcus Davis — How to Translate Pure Boxing Technique Into MMA
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by Nate Wilcox on Aug 24, 2010 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
know the point you're making brent but..
James Toney lands an uppercut before he takes that leg kick. Comparing Lytles boxing to Toneys is a bit like saying the grappling ability of a NCAA division 1 wrestler and a high school champion are equal.
One thing you didn't touch on is footwork in a ring vs. an octagon.
Cutting off angles and moving for corners is something boxers train. A rounded fighting area where you can’t trap a guy totally changes the game. Cro-Cop infamously had trouble adjusting his striking game for this. Lyoto constantly takes advantage of essentially endless circling room if you know how to move properly.
Toney won’t be able to force Randy to move in any way similar to how he could in a ring, either by being offensive or baiting him to move in. It’s a very different game of distance. Is the new fighting arena and footwork something Toney had time to adjust to in six months while also changing his stance, learning ground defense, and drilling his sprawl? Could any boxer?
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Aug 24, 2010 5:52 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Right.
Though while you can’t really trap someone in the octagon, you can prevent him from moving one direction (so Crocop could have prevented guys from moving to their left – he just didn’t know how).
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
Toney's the type of guy who waits for you to come to him.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 24, 2010 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions
This guy has the biggest head
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by Thats It For you! on Aug 24, 2010 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Jenna should be given a medal
For birthing those kids
by RicketyCricket on Aug 24, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
It was no big deal really, they slipped right out. Imagine the ball return at a bowling alley.
by kanodogg on Aug 24, 2010 6:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 11 recs
haahahahahahaha
yes YES YUS!!!
Semper Fi'
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Pain don't hurt...
by RolloTomasi on Aug 24, 2010 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I've forgotten
how vicious Thiago’s leg kicks are. It’s been more than a year since i’ve seen him throw one.
Nice point of how boxing defense can work against you in MMA. In general, Toney might have a lot of trouble if he falls back to instincts built from years and years of training.
Freddie Roach on Inside MMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tX85fppj3sk
Good link
Roach is such an authority on boxing.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Aug 24, 2010 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Great Piece!
I’d been trying to think of boxing trained mma fighters and all i came up with was Noons. I forgot completely about Lytle and Davis. While these guys are known KO artists, they have to be wary of so many more counters, the KOs don’t translate to the cage with the same frequency. They might KO more guys than other mma fighters, but it’s still less than they could or would straight boxing. Thanks for reading my mind…
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
Both Lytle and Davis...
KO people at less than the “average rate” for their weight. Davis has something like 3 KO/TKO wins in his 13 UFC fights.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 24, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Can you break down standing KOs vs. TKO/Stoppages from mount?
I’d be curious about whether or not Golden Gloves or Boxing Experience makes you more dangerous on the feet only…
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
Love that .Gif
Plants the foot, turns it slightly, and follows right through and past the middle line.
I think leg kicks are going to be big factor in the Toney/Couture bout. Coutures smart enough not to shoot right out the gate. I think he sets up his punches with kicks, measures his distance, then utilizes the clinch and takedown. To tell you the truth, I’m not so sure the 1st round will have any takedowns.
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The more I think about it
the less important ‘boxing’ seems in this fight.
A few things make me think this:
1. Toney is playing dumb as hell about MMA. I think he may know a lot more than he lets on.
2. How is Randys going to engage him? Toney will not be the aggressor, he likes to wait.
3. Toney is short, strong, fat and sweaty as hell. That’s a weird body type to grapple with.
4. ‘Dirty boxing’. In truth, boxing is pretty dirty itself(Hopkins/Jones). Toney’s not new to it.
5. Jiu-Jitsu. The moment it hits the mat, the playboy Toney better have his Jiu Jitsu with him.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 24, 2010 7:45 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Regarding number one...
he’s not at AKA, ATT, Alliance, Black House, Grudge, Extreme Couture, Tristar, Sityotung, Chute Boxe, Team Nogueira, Alliance, Blackline, Reign, The Arena, Wolfslair, Rough House, Alpha Male, Caesar Gracie, Renzo Gracie, Gracia Barra… or really any reputable gym. He’s training with Trevor Sherman. Just sayin’.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I know... I know....
I thought he was with Juantio Ibarra? At least he knows what it takes to win.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 24, 2010 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions
So he's smarter than Rampage.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 24, 2010 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm honestly baffled.
I just don’t understand where this guy came from. Did Toney find him somehow? Did he seek out Toney? I honestly believe if he had 9 months with AKA he could have had a really good chance.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 25, 2010 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
pdl
Neither was Chuck Liddell, and he had a pretty decent MMA career!
Lytle was winning that fight against Alves. Yeah point taken since alves was hitting him with good leg kicks but lytle landed more shots and had alves hurt until the fight was called on a BS cut.
by Ghost Face Killer on Aug 24, 2010 7:57 PM EDT reply actions
How Lytle was doing wasn’t really the point. I just wanted something to illustrate that even when a guy punches he has to worry about something coming in return.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 24, 2010 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions
It would be hillarious if toney uses that southpark “chocolate salty balls” song as his walkout music
by kanodogg on Aug 24, 2010 8:03 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Forget about the translation of boxing techiques...
I just need regular translation to understand what the hell Toney’s saying!
’’Apparently the the only way to kill a lion is by rear naked choke…personally I'd just kick it in the head.’’ – Bas Rutten
I'd add Legionarius to the list as well
I know he’s only had 9 pro fights but he’s been training in the art since he was a little kid. He’s also has very mixed results in the UFC as well.
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Something that has been a bit lost (maybe)
As Toney got bigger around the waist and moved up to heavyweight, he might have needed an edge, as he did test positive for performance enhancing drugs. After he fought John Ruiz in 2005, Toney tested positive for stanozolol (a steroid). Just two years later (2007), Toney failed another post-fight drugtest after he fought a no-name fighter (Danny Batchelder). This time, in addition to stanozolol, there was also boldenone in his system. James got his suspension reduced by claiming that someone had put some in his water bottle (shades of Panama Lewis). I wish that Randy had asked for more stringent testing, because in training, Toney’s movement and speed looks much better than it has in several years.
Just a thought
You never know.
Competing late into his 40’s, Randy may not be so ‘natural’ himself these days.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 24, 2010 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
True, anything is possible, but James has tested positive twice in the twilight of his career, which should bear more scrutiny.
I'm with you there.
I just think Randy may not be in the position to call him out. Not saying he’s doing anything wrong, but stranger things have happened.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 24, 2010 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions
For what it’s worth, Batchelder also tested positive that night. And even worse…most media that were in attendance had Batchelder winning the fight.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 24, 2010 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Lytle is a special case in that list
on top of having a fairly successful boxing career, he’s a pretty legit bjj black belt too.
I think he looks like Clay Davis.
by god-damn long hair on Aug 25, 2010 3:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Shiiiiiiiiiite!
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
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