UFC 118 Preview: Boxers in MMA Predate James Toney
As a follow up to our own Jonathan Snowden's pieces on Muhammad Ali's venture into proto-MMA and Art Jimmerson at UFC 1, I thought I'd talk a little about two other pro boxers who gave MMA a try in the 1990s: James Warring and Melton Bown.
Dave Meltzer talks about Warring in his piece on boxers in MMA:
James Warring: Warring, who held two minor versions of the world cruiserweight title, competed in the one-and-only World Combat Championship pay-per-view tournament on October 17, 1995. In the days of styles vs. styles, Warring first beat kickboxer Jerome Turcan. Then, in a grueling 16:08 fight, in which Warring used hair pulling (legal at the time) to keep Paulsen under control, he upset Erik Paulson, a notable shootfighter in Japan. But in the finals, Warring was choked out in 2:47 by Renzo Gracie.
The Gracie-Warring fight is in the full entry. Warring wasn't just a boxer, he had high level kickboxing experience and once faced future boxing champ Vitali Klitschko, that video is in the full entry too (keep your eyes posted for Referee Cecil Peoples). Sadly, I can't find Warring's epic bout with Erik Paulson in which he hair pulled and dirty boxed his way to a win over the Shooto champ and future Brock Lesnar trainer.
But the man no one is discussing is Melton Bowen who lost to UFC 3 champ Steve Jennum at UFC 4. Matt McEwan wrote up that bout in his estimable event-by-event history of the UFC:
Bowen is the WBF Intercontinental Heavyweight champion with 24 KO's in his 37 pro fights. He is proclaimed as the first "real" boxer in the UFC. Now, I am not a boxing historian, but I do know that the WBF was not one of the major boxing organizations, and being the Intercontinental champion of any boxing organization does not mean too much. Bowen does some talking in his video, but I really can not tell you what he says. He is a big, ripped guy though, and is actually wearing grappling gloves, making him the first to actually fight with them.
Jennum - the policeman ninja - is back to defend. That is all he says in his interview. Great personality there. Even still, Brown thinks Jennum will win with his ground game. On his way out, Jennum is roundly booed by the crowd.
Jennum starts the fight looking to kick. Bowen holds back, not wanting to over commit and be taken down, and when he finally throws a punch is caught in the clinch. They end up against the cage as Bowen slowly teeters over. Jennum ends up in the mount and starts throwing punches. Bowen struggles hard, but every time he is about to roll out or reverse, Jennum grabs the cage for balance. Big John screams for Bowen's corner to "watch their fighter", which I think is code for "this fight would be over if I was allowed to stop it." Jennum lands a nasty head butt. Surprisingly, Bowen is still struggling from the bottom and actually manages to pull himself up with the help of the fence. He is not on his feet for long though, as Jennum throws him right back down and mounts again. Jennum throws some of the WEAKEST punches I ever seen in a fight, then tries for an Americana, but just does not have the strength to cinch it in. He gets a few decent punches in, then finally grabs an arm and extends it for the tap out victory. It was only five minutes long, but both guys are exhausted. It seems as if, other than maybe Royce and few other guys, no one knew what kind of conditioning was needed to fight for any length of time, and they paid the price for it.
He fails to mention the big punch Bowen landed on Jennum while mounted. It clearly rocked the UFC champ and prompted Jennum to say, "he hits HARD" in the post-fight interview. Video of that fight is here.
Bowen wasn't much as a pro boxer though and had already pretty much washed out as a prospect by the time he fought in the UFC. Three years later he faced Shannon Briggs. That fight is in the full entry.
Clearly none of these guys had boxing careers comparable to James Toney, but there's little reason to believe he will enjoy much more success inside the Octagon.
Nonetheless, UFC 118 is in many ways a return to the very roots of MMA and what it was originally all about -- a clash of styles to see which approaches to martial arts perform the best in simulated non-lethal combat. The intrigue this time is that with the UFC's huge success and boxing's faltering fortunes, perhaps more of the athletes that have devoted themselves to boxing will consider trying MMA.
Vitali Klitschko vs James Warring
Melton Bowen vs Shannon Briggs
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Hmm
This whole fight is funny. It’s not boxing vs MMA, but then again, it is boxing vs MMA. So funny.
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 24, 2010 4:47 PM EDT reply actions
it is funny
I admit I’m the biggest MMArk in the world and I’m falling for Dana’s bait hook line and sinker once again!
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After reading all these MMA websites saying Toney has no chance makes me want to cheer for him.
Anyone who thinks Randy has an easy fight is an idiot.
Toney could end this fight with one punch.
by Din71 on Aug 24, 2010 4:49 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Toney possesses no more ability to end this fight with one punch than any other heavyweight on the UFC roster.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 24, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Really? He isn’t a more accurate puncher than anyone on the UFC roster?
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 24, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
He’s more accurate in a straight up boxing range punching exchange. I don’t know that he’ll have more accurate strikes than everyone else against guys who are moving in ways that he hasn’t been conditioned to seeing in over 25+ years. And he does not possess much by way of KO power to where if he lands it means some automatic form of sleep for Randy.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 24, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
In regards to KO power
Randy can’t wall through shots these days. He got dropped by Nog two or three times. If there is anything Toney can do in this fight, he can drop Randy with a laser shot.
"I talked about retirement a little bit, but told them I'd be the same ol' grumpy, pissed off guy." --Bobby Cox
by Anthony Pace on Aug 24, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
He doesn’t hit that hard to where I think he’s going to put him clean out with a punch. I’d say his ability to put anyone out with a single punch is basically the average ability of any heavyweight in the UFC. and if he does drop Randy is he going to try to go to the ground to finish him? It’s one thing to say he may be able to hurt Randy, but as Luke pointed out in his interview with Steve Kim, Randy is VERY good at recovering and scrambling and not getting finished. If James drops him and tries to follow him to the ground I figure it takes about 5 seconds before Randy rolls him over. If he steps back and makes the ref stand him up he’s going to have to try to charge in and finish and that will probably leave him open to a takedown. His boxing style is really pretty iffy for MMA and people are really reaching on his finishing ability.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 24, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
It just sticks out to me that Nog has always been viewed as a very finesse puncher in the HW division (or maybe it’s just me) and I believe he could have finished Randy if he hadn’t “Nogged-Out”, so to speak, and gone for that gator roll. But I haven’t seen the fight in a while, so maybe I’m mistaken.
Is James Toney a power puncher? Of course not, by the standards of boxings higher weight classes. But all it takes is one solid combo and Randy can be gazing into the abyss. I don’t give Toney more than a 20% chance, and that’s being generous. But, we can dismiss that this past-his-prime boxer will still have the best hands ever to enter the Octagon.
"I talked about retirement a little bit, but told them I'd be the same ol' grumpy, pissed off guy." --Bobby Cox
by Anthony Pace on Aug 24, 2010 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Randy has been very good at recovering, but Vera pretty much had him on a silver platter and didn’t go in for the kill.
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by Derek Suboticki on Aug 24, 2010 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Nog was on his game that day.
And Randy was trading with him and ate two clean shots to the jaw. Randy ain’t gonna trade shots with Toney.
Ride the Tiger!
by doonerthesooner on Aug 24, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Can he strike accurately from kicking range and with his hips squared instead of leaving his leg hanging out?
We’ll see. Or we won’t. I’m still not convinced that Toney shows up, and if he does, that he shows up PED free.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I keep waiting for the "last minute injury"
or the post fight positive PED test.
So I’m with you.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 24, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I strongly disagree.
Toney certainly is nobody like Randy has ever faced with the hands like he has. Randy was k.o.‘ed by Chuck twice and I have to think Toney has the best hands in the UFC. I’d like to see Carwin fight him if he beats Randy. That would be even more interesting. I guess we’ll see.
Cecil Peoples, "Boxing dosnt win fights"
"Everyone has a game plan, untell they get hit." -Mike Tyson
I am not a boxing historian, but I do know that the WBF was not one of the major boxing organizations, and being the Intercontinental champion of any boxing organization does not mean too much.
Currently across 17 weight classes the WBF has 6 champions. 4 Australians and 2 South Africans. Of those men I’ve heard of one, Sam Soliman. So yeah. they are far from a major org. He’s right on that one.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 24, 2010 5:15 PM EDT reply actions
eh?
Or in this case, completely accurate in every statement?
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by Cory Braiterman on Aug 24, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
ah i completely missed the self-deprecation line
I was like… wtf kind of comment is this?
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by Cory Braiterman on Aug 24, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Toney could take out Warring and Bowen in the same night, and i mean that with no disrespect intended! Brent Brookhouse that remark about Toneys ability to end this fight with one shot makes me wonder if you’d ever heard of him before January 2010. No one in MMA can compare to him when it comes to punching, from any range, any angle or either hand, he’s different class to anyone in mixed martial arts.
Please feel free to provide evidence that proves me wrong. When has Toney ever been a KO artist? He has a lot of boxing stoppages but they’re mostly TKO’s where the ref stepped in because a guy wasn’t firing back. That’s a lot different than having rare KO power. He’s not a power puncher and hasn’t been at any point in his career.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 24, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
And yes...
he’s a different class of boxer…in a straight up punching exchange from boxing range with boxing angles. Which…is not what this is.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 24, 2010 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
How many boxers have one punch KO power
I don’t know the stats and don’t watch a ton of boxing, but it hardly seems like a lot of boxers have true " one punch KO power". I suspect this is because of large gloves and since boxers are mostly defensive they rarely put themselves in a prone position MMA fighters end up in.
So my point basically is that accuracy and hand speed might translate to well above average KO power in MMA even if he wasn’t a KO artist in Boxing.
That said I agree that he has a ton of issues, but just a relevant point I think.
A lot of guys have a lot of early stoppages on their records. When you look at Toney’s record once he went over 175 pounds he really didn’t stop too many opponents of note early in fights. He’d grind guys down and get a later round stoppage or take it to a decision.
All I’m saying is that while he has good hands I don’t think he possesses a combination of power and hands that is so far beyond the rest of the sport that a single punch landing means the fight is over.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 24, 2010 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
It should be noted that these were almost all, world class fighters and very few if any were stopped prior to their respective encounters with Toney
Perspective is everything
by SimplePsych on Aug 24, 2010 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Let's be totally fair then...I'm not even sure what this will mean when I compile it as I've never actually looked at it
in fights where he weighed 175 pounds or more he stopped:
Anthony Hembrick – stopped twice before fighting Toney. Would fight Toney twice, stopped both times, stopped one more time after Toney.
Karl Willis – Stopped twice before Toney (in 2 of his previous 3 fights) would be stopped 22 more times after Toney
Freddie Delgado – stopped twice before Toney, never fought again
Greg Everett – Stopped once before Toney, never fought again
Earl Butler – Stopped 3 times before Toney, 3 times after
Terry Porter – Stopped 1 time before Toney, 13 times after
Adolpho Washington – Only ever stopped by Toney
Courtney Butler – Stopped 2 times before toney, only fought twice after
Saul Montana – Stopped 5 times before Toney, 4 times after
Wesley Martin – Stopped 12 times before Toney (including 3 straight before the fight), 8 times after
Michael Rush – Stopped 4 times before toney, never again
Jason Robinson – Stopped 1 time before, 1 time after
Evander Holyfield – Stopped 1 time before, none after
Matthew Greer – Stopped 1 time before, hasn’t fought since
So really…there’s not a lot of world class guys that he stopped and very few who hadn’t been stopped before.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 24, 2010 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
and after doing all that leg work...I really hope that people actually SEE this.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 24, 2010 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
No doubt the quality went down as he went up in weight class
But they were KO’s and many of them were ranked in the top 10 and had solid records. He also won decisions during this time against guys like 31-0 Vasilly Jirov, 22-0 Rydell Booker, 49-5 Mike McCallum who were never stopped.
by SimplePsych on Aug 24, 2010 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
No doubt the quality went down as he went up in weight class
But they were KO’s and many of them were ranked in the top 10 and had solid records. He also won decisions during this time against guys like 31-0 Vasilly Jirov, 22-0 Rydell Booker, 49-5 Mike McCallum who were never stopped.
by SimplePsych on Aug 24, 2010 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Brent he’s stopped world class pro boxers wearing 10 ounce gloves. Wearing 4 ouncers, if he hits a 47 year old man with punch resistance problems, i think it will be a spectacular KO! Credit is due to Toney either way for doing this, anyone who thinks he’ll pull out is mistaken.
He didn't stop them due to some huge power
He stopped them the way he always did, slick counter punching, amazing defense and cumulative damage. He was never a big puncher, not to say he doesn’t hit hard, but not like you are making it out to be.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Aug 24, 2010 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
His first 15 wins
He had 10 KO’s, all 4 rounds or less. He had other similar stretches after that as well. He has 44 ko’s in 72 wins. You can’t amass that against the competition he faced with powder puff hands.
by SimplePsych on Aug 24, 2010 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
early fights are generally meaningless in determining a guy's power ability...
PLEASE see the list I just did above. Not because I’m desperate to prove you wrong, but because it took a long time.
but the point isn’t that he hasn’t stopped a lot of guys. it’s that most of them are accumulation ref stoppages
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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 24, 2010 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Well it depends on the fighter and who is handling him
But in Toneys case. He wasn’t given the powder puff league early. His 1st pro bout was against a 7-2 guy. His 2nd fight(a KO) was an 8-3. His 5th a 16-2, his 6th another KO was 8-3. His 8th fight(a 1st round KO) was against a 18-4. His 11th a ko against a 9-1. So he didn’t get the stiff fed diet that is the norm.
by SimplePsych on Aug 24, 2010 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I think one problem is that I'm coming off like I'm shitting on Toney...
I really respect the hell out of the guy and when he was in shape he was a guy I loved to watch. I just want people to understand that by putting Toney in 4 ounce gloves I don’t think you have a killer on your hands. I don’t think a clean connection from Toney really is that much more dangerous than a clean connection from most other 220+ pound guys in the UFC. And I’m not sure if I believe that he’ll be able to use his sharp aim against guys that are doing things outside what his brain has been taught to process over the past 20-30 years.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 24, 2010 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And that is a theory that many are sharing with you
But I think that a 72-6 pro boxing record is in a class of its own. There are only a handful of fighters in history that have been able to have a record of this magnitude. And most of them were pre-1980. And against a 47 yr old,18-10 Couture, I just think that there is much more chance of things going badly for him than most of the MMA hardcores. I may be biased the other way after having a 42-5 amateur record with 4 AAU titles and an Olympic alternate spot. But, I have since achieved a BJJ brown belt and am an MMA striking coach at a well known gym, so believe me when I say I see it from all angles. I have worked with pure boxing guys and MMA guys, and a guy with Toney’s record will have an edge over most of the UFC heavyweights in striking, and I think that any of them that stand around and wait for it or try and trade will suffer a similar fate as Tim Sylvia sooner or later.
by SimplePsych on Aug 25, 2010 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I certainly don’t think it’s a good idea in any way for Randy to mess around standing up with him. I just don’t think Toney could have picked up enough to break his habits and allow for him to get used to the angles he’ll see. I could be wrong, it’d certainly be more interesting if I am.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 25, 2010 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Wow.
The Couture/Toney match has prompted some good articles from you loafers. ;)
by Cannon Jacques on Aug 24, 2010 10:02 PM EDT reply actions
This is good cannon fodder
Interesting, entertaining but clearly Warring and Bowen are not in the same stratosphere with Toney. I mean, just a quick glance at their record tells the whole story, and that record was against less than stellar opposition to boot.

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