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Texas Authorities Respond to Strikeforce: Houston Controversies -- Nothing to See Here, Move Along

I guess I'm the only Texan who sees an illegal knee to the face in this photo. 
Photo by Esther Lin/Strikeforce

MMA Junkie reports:

The Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation believes no harm or foul got in the way of this past Saturday's "Strikeforce: Houston."

Susan Stanford, the TDLR's Public Information Officer, today told MMAjunkie.com (www.mmajunkie.com) that Muhammed "King Mo" Lawal and K.J. Noons were within their rights to use bottled oxygen prior to competition.

Additionally, the TDLR found no lapses in officiating with Noon's second-round TKO of Jorge Gurgel or Chad Griggs' second-round TKO of Bobby Lashley.

Mike Chiappetta talks to the ring side physician, Dr. Jorge Guerrero:

"Is there controversy about this?" Guerrero asked when reached by phone Monday morning. "The fighters didn't use anything against the rules. When it's something that's not overtly prohibited or limited, it's usually left up to the doctors at ringside, and we make the call on the spot. I think that's what happened here."

He also talks to New Jersey authorities who say it would NOT have been allowed in NJ:

"We wouldn't have a problem with the oxygen per se but the canister could contain most any type of vaporized substance in addition to oxygen that could include banned substances and it would be impossible to ascertain such at that point in time," said Nick Lembo, the legal counsel for the New Jersey state athletic control board.

I'm honestly not surprised at all.

In my mind the appalling refereeing of the Lashley and Noons fights were much bigger issues. I agree with Jorge Gurgel that there wasn't much the referee could have done to stop the late blow at the end of the first round. I also believe that Gurgel was still actively defending himself so it wasn't a true cheap shot. Nor did the illegal kick at the end impact the fight, which should have been stopped sooner. The Noons-Gurgel fight was poor reffing, but not exceptionally bad by MMA standards, sadly.

The biggest outrage of the night in the full entry.

Star-divide

That can't be said of the Bobby Lashley-Chad Griggs fight. Lashley had Griggs mounted when the ref stood them up to check on Lashley's cut, then restarted them on their feet. As a general rule, some positions in MMA are so dominant -- the mount, side mount, back mount and the mounted crucifix -- that IMO should never be stopped for inactivity. The position itself is inherently threatening and the furthest thing from a stalemate. If the cut had to be checked -- which is questionable since it was below the eye and NOT interfering with Lashley's vision, especially in that position -- the restart should have happened back in the mount.

I'll let Josh Gross finish:

Referees are allowed to intervene at any point they want in a fight. They're also allowed to restart bouts where they've been broken -- usually when a fighter is the mount he or she is given the courtesy of reclaiming it.

Not tonight. Not according to (Referee Jon) Schorle, whose poor choice directly influenced the outcome of the fight.

Griggs wasn't going to get Lashley off of him. Maybe he would have survived the round and found a stoppage in the third. We won't know. And that's the real point. Lashley isn't Lesnar. But even if he'll never become a great fighter, he's a fighter nonetheless. He deserved the attention of a competent official, which Schorle has proven time and time again he is not.

Our own Luke Thomas compiled the best one-post summary of Shorle's infamy yesterday. Read it and weep sports fans. 

The moral of the story is that as the sport expands, more fights are going to be held in more markets like Texas, Arizona, Florida, Australia, and the UK that have far less professional regulatory bodies than combat sports meccas like New Jersey and Nevada. These are growing pains that come with the new territories.

Don't forget the way Florida swept the Kimbo Slice-Seth Petruzelli "stand gate" fiasco under the rug with a cursory investigation. That was a far more serious situation with allegations of attempted fight fixing by a promoter and nothing was done.

Sadly, Strikeforce, as the smaller promotion, is having their own growing pains as an organization and can't really be expected to act as a de facto commission the way the UFC does in Texas or the UK. Nevertheless, Strikeforce should have drug tested at least a few of the fighters on the card. Texas has a track record of not drug testing and Strikeforce has handled drug testing its fighters before -- Alistair Overeem in Missouri.

Even under the best of circumstances, fighters are risking their health for our entertainment. As fans we really owe it to them that we insist on better work from the commissions and the promotions to ensure fights are as safe and fair as possible. 

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Lot’s of excuses are being made for Lashley when the facts are it was a judgement call by the ref, it wasn’t some grand debacle like the Noons/Gurgel ending. Lashley got beat, he was looking for a way out and he found it thanks to Griggs the ref didn’t have a thing to do with that.

"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
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by Nightwhistler on Aug 23, 2010 3:33 PM EDT reply actions  

I really didnt have a problem with the Lashley fight......

Yeah maybe the ref could have gien him one more blow to the head to try and give him enough time to maybe stand up. But I dont know. Is that what the fuss is about? The ref stopping to early?

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by DJ Pullout on Aug 23, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

No. It was that he stopped the fight mid round while Lashley was in ful mount to check the cut under his eye. When the first restarted he didn’t offer Lashley his position back. He instead resumed the fight with both of them standing. Lashley was gassed and went for the takedown and ended up just hanging onto a leg while getting hammer fists to the head. The round ended and Lashley was too tired or too out of it to get up and go to his corner.

by YoungGun on Aug 23, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Did the ref go on record to say the stood them for inactivity, then decided to have the cut checked?

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by Thats It For you! on Aug 23, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

NO, he stopped the fight to check the cut only. There was no inactivity, if he was stopping it because of that initially that was just as bad or worse. Lashley was in dominant position and attacking. Griggs was actively defending but was also unable to escape or reverse position.

by YoungGun on Aug 24, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

it's about the stand up from the mounted position

and then going to the feet for the restart. Fighters shouldn’t be stood up from dominant positions — mount, back control, side control, etc under any but the most extreme circumstances.
Randy Couture held onto back control against Tim Sylvia for entire rounds while landing few blows and threatening very little in submission attempts but Big John didn’t stand them up.

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by Nate Wilcox on Aug 23, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ahhh I see.

I didnt watch this entire fight so I missed that. That is absolutely BS then. What kind of Ref stands fighters up from a mount position? Thats just flat out inexperience right there. Should have started them back in the mount position.

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by DJ Pullout on Aug 23, 2010 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow. Just watched it on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYHcSO6MAYw&feature=search

Cant believe he did that. Not only that but the commentators didnt even pick up on it. If that were Joe Rogan he would be flipping out at that point. Crazy!

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by DJ Pullout on Aug 23, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

The commentators for Strikeforce are fucking terrible

At one point I just put it on mute and played music while watching the fights.

by av1o3 on Aug 23, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sometimes these things happen in MMA Strikeofrce broadcasting

by DayGeaux on Aug 23, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jesus Christ

I never pay any attention to the commentators at any event for the most part, but even noticed Mauro saying “And that’s why Big John and Herb Dean should ref every match.” For all the constant bitching about their commentators and how horrendous they are, I’d think one of you would catch that. But you’re all right, shitfarce, etc.

a kitten dies every time you compare an individual sport to a team sport.

by Marvin Malehooves on Aug 23, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think this may have been during a different fight in retrospect.

a kitten dies every time you compare an individual sport to a team sport.

by Marvin Malehooves on Aug 23, 2010 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

How can any rational person think this...

"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse

by Chris Barton on Aug 23, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

C'mon now

I guess we can’t call them CHEATERS!

But it was so much fun.

/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 23, 2010 3:33 PM EDT reply actions  

I posted a related article this morning over at Tapology.

I discussed MMA officiating with a licensed Massachusetts referee ahead of the Boston card this Saturday night. He runs clinics in the state for judges and referees-in-training.

by Steven T. Kelliher on Aug 23, 2010 3:34 PM EDT reply actions  

link!

please. do I have to teach self-promotion classes?

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by Nate Wilcox on Aug 23, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

No offense

But sometimes you guys are a bit touchy about people posting links to articles/interviews they conducted.

by Steven T. Kelliher on Aug 23, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

So mainly it was the no drug testing thing. That’s still huge IMO. But at least all this crap can die down now.

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by xFenixKnightx on Aug 23, 2010 3:36 PM EDT reply actions  

it was

1) no drug testing when it’s a known fact that TX doesn’t drug test. The UFC does their own in TX and Strikeforce has done their own in MO.
2) bad bad bad reffing or what we’ve come to expect in every state.

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by Nate Wilcox on Aug 23, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bunch of stuff coming out of this event

Shorle shouldn’t be aloud to ref. ever again. Put him and Peoples in a room and watch the Shenanigans unfold as they convince each other that Lesnar won round 1 against Carwin and that the fight shouldve been stood up once Lesnar reached Half gaurd in round 2

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by II SMASH II on Aug 23, 2010 3:42 PM EDT reply actions  

I wouldn't say disqualified

but maybe called a no contest. It was partially the refs fault that the knee even happened.

by av1o3 on Aug 23, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gurgel was still trying to defend himself until the last two shots on the ground.

It looked to me like the ref was just trying to get a better vantage point not that he was trying to stop the fight and being indecisive I think Noons is a pretty fucking good 155r but giving him the W in that fight was worse than how Dan got his W over Rich. When KJ hit Jorge after the bell in round one the fight was over.

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by doonerthesooner on Aug 23, 2010 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn’t expect such a casual “meh” from the Texas AC reps. I got caught up in the comment riot.

If my state commission is not going to learn or improve then I hope the promoters are paying attention. Bad reffing will cost them dollars and ruin good fights. Request that Shorle not ref any remotely relevant fight.

by Rufford on Aug 23, 2010 3:49 PM EDT reply actions  

Health, careers, and livelihood are on the line during every professional MMA fight.

Every bout is relevant.

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-Randall Munroe

by pdl on Aug 23, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed. Didn’t mean to make light of any fight or fighter’s commitment.

But it’s a reality that Herb and Big John can’t ref every fight and the promotion companies can’t make the ACs hire more refs.

by Rufford on Aug 23, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mario Yamasaki and Josh Rosenthal are both very good refs.

Herb and Big John are as well. So we have four guys for five main card fights. Yves Lavigne is hit or miss. Then there’s Mazz and Big Dan. Lets call up at a guy like Brian Beauchamp from regionals who does well on smaller stages. Fighters deserve safety in the ring, and the third man is there to guarantee it.

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by pdl on Aug 23, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

and the woman who's been reffing some UFC's lately

she’s proven her mettle. name?

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by Nate Wilcox on Aug 23, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

rec’d

"I talked about retirement a little bit, but told them I'd be the same ol' grumpy, pissed off guy." --Bobby Cox

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Aug 23, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kim Winslow?

I haven’t paid enough attention to her to really make a judgement, but I feel like I remember a fuckup from her on a WEC show. Then again, everybody is allowed a mistake or two in a long career.

It may be a bit mysoginist, but I feel more comfortable with big guys or former high level competitors being the refs. Imagine her trying to hold back Daley after the sucker punch. Doesn’t jive well with me.

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by pdl on Aug 23, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well in all fairness

Imagine Mazzagatti trying to hold Daley back. Tan Dan and Big John are probably the only two refs really able to constrain somebody that effectively. And if Carwin needed restraining, we would need either a team of referees or Brock Lesnar to keep him back.

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by Neil Manich on Aug 23, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

herb dean could probably constrain people fairly well. dude used to fight at heavyweight

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by Anthony Pace on Aug 23, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’d just need to restrain Carwin for 5 min.

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by Scott C. Broussard on Aug 23, 2010 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

She reffed Cyborg/Finney which I personally think went on too long.

by nastyem on Aug 23, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

there was a lot of talk about that fight

and I came away convinced Winslow made the right call. Finney proved to have not been injured.

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by Nate Wilcox on Aug 23, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I dont care for Mario, hes pretty bad, just no Mazagati bad.

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by Thats It For you! on Aug 23, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rec'd

Yelling that out at the end of a Yamasaki-reffed match is instant laughs at the bar.

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by Derek Suboticki on Aug 23, 2010 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jason Herzog is a quality ref as well.

Bolts from the Blue // "Sometimes you would get the sense that people felt bigger than the team," Gates said. "Not to say it was an issue, but we know it’s not an issue for sure now."
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by Richard Wade on Aug 23, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Guerrero noted that Texas closely oversees what corners can provide fighters between rounds, and that canned oxygen would not be allowed between rounds. But since the fighters took the canned oxygen prior to their respective fights, they did nothing wrong.

Uhhh

That’s in between rounds

by Lyrias on Aug 23, 2010 3:55 PM EDT reply actions   2 recs

Them cutting to a replay

I checked the Noons fight too but they mostly showed Gurgel’s corner and first round highlights.

by Lyrias on Aug 23, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's probably a graphic about to come on screen

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MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Aug 23, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yup

but I like the power-up explanation better so i’m going to believe that one.

by av1o3 on Aug 23, 2010 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

The flash from someone taking a picture of their TV. Or Mo’s about to enter a tear in the space time continuum.

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by Tim Burke on Aug 23, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, that was after Feijao landed the knees

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MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Aug 23, 2010 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I admit, I actually laughed out loud with that one.

by Neuriot on Aug 23, 2010 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lightsaber

It’s not explicitly forbidden in the rules, and the ref decided to allow it.

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by thetakeover on Aug 23, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mo’s got a grill

by DayGeaux on Aug 23, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

These are from after the 2nd round

No actual shots of Mo using it (I don’t think he cheated I think the commission is inept and didn’t know their own rules) but it was clearly in his corner in between rounds.

by Lyrias on Aug 23, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

No one saw him us it in between rounds, can't say he cheated

/Carwin steroid defense

lol

/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 23, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

They just clarified today with an official statement that nothing wrong happened. It was not against their own rules, this was a stupid inference made by the original Middle Easy article that BE unfortunately seemed to take at face value. Furthermore both fighters cleared it with the ringside doctor ahead of time. Specifically with regards to the oxygen canisters, neither fighter did anything wrong, StrikeForce did nothing wrong, the athletic commission didn’t even do anything wrong. Even in New Jersey the only difference is the bottles would have to be tested ahead of time to make sure there was nothing but oxygen in them.

KJ Noons is still an asshat and the Texas State Athletic Commission is still a mess, but the oxygen canisters are a non-story.

by Chromium on Aug 23, 2010 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

the fact that other states like NJ

where they have actual functional commissions don’t allow them should be a clue that Texas shouldn’t either. Also the high liklihood that the fighters were using them between rounds — in contradiction to what Dr Texas said was allowed is another point of concern.

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by Nate Wilcox on Aug 23, 2010 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually they said they had no problem with them

Just that they’d have to test the item before the fighter was already at ringside, to make sure it was legit.

Beyond that, there’s lots of things a fighter could sneak into their body before a fight happens anyway, that would be picked up by a post-fight blood test, and I’m not sure this is any different.

by Chromium on Aug 24, 2010 2:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

"If a contestant would like to use canned oxygen for a bout, he would need to clear the product with one of the commission’s ringside physicians to make sure the product does not contain any prohibited substances or would otherwise adversely affect the bout," said Keith Kizer, executive director of the Nevada state athletic commission.

Kizer didn’t say he was ok with it he said it would have to be checked first. It was basically a generic statement that they would kick it over to a doctor to say if it would affect the bout. You can replace oxygen container with pretty much anything and it would be a similar answer, the doctor would have to ok it first.

by who me on Aug 24, 2010 8:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

how is this any different from what I said in the post above?

Do I seriously have to re-quote my own post? What part of the sentence “Just that they’d have to test the item before the fighter was already at ringside, to make sure it was legit” do you not understand?

by Chromium on Aug 24, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm sticking with my words

Mo and KJ are both cheaters.

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by Matthew Roth on Aug 23, 2010 4:20 PM EDT reply actions  

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by Chromium on Aug 23, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Where’s subo? IT’S A STORY!

Or not.

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by Tim Burke on Aug 23, 2010 4:21 PM EDT reply actions  

I figured there’d be a comment like this made, and it’s like this. If King Mo, and however many other fighters that used the can weren’t cheating, it now becomes that this Athletic Commission is, to put it bluntly, worse than I had originally thought.

“Oh, it has no significant effect…” Right, thats why they’re using it, just to kill time…huh? One middle school science class is sufficient enough to teach you how oxygen is used in the human body, and how something like this could effect a fighter who is using a great deal of oxygen. If this was left legal, then thats absolutely unacceptable.

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by Kaleb Kelchner on Aug 23, 2010 4:29 PM EDT reply actions  

Why? Because it fucks with the legitimacy of the sport. You’ve got one guy sucking on a can to keep himself from gassing, while the other isn’t. Unless every single fighter had a canister, that means someone had an unfair advantage. Now, if they were all informed that they could use these handy dandy canisters, and handed them out free of charge…fuck it, whatever then.

It’s like back in school, if you don’t have enough candy to share with the whole class, you don’t eat it. If fighters were informed, but incapable of getting a hold of one of these things, it then becomes who has the extra money to purchase one of these…so on, and so on.

Or maybe my last sentence was misunderstood, I’m saying, if the athletic commission left those rules like that, then their actions as a commission are unacceptable. Not to be misunderstood for me saying it’s unacceptable for a fighter to use those even if it’s legal…it’s acceptable, not that I like it, but you take whatever you can get if it means a win by legal means.

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by Kaleb Kelchner on Aug 23, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

There is no compromise to the safety or health of the fighter who is ingesting it with this device. Honestly I just think Noons and Lawal are ahead of the curve hear (even if Lawal lost). I would not be surprised to see it become widely used in the next year, if the commissions are fine with it after testing.

by Chromium on Aug 23, 2010 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not going to happen

if the athletic commissions actually test these they’re going to vote against it. It’s an unfair advantage to fighters who use it. If a fighter gasses during a fight then its their fault they shouldn’t be allowed to take hits of pure oxygen in between rounds because they didn’t do enough cardio in training.

by av1o3 on Aug 23, 2010 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

It will absolutely happen

Maybe not between rounds (although that might happen too), but until the fight starts it basically falls under the same guidelines as a training aide, and no one has a problem with it for that purpose. Some people can just afford better training. And for fuck’s sake, if a fighter doesn’t use a $15 oxygen canister, then it’s not going to be because he can’t afford it. Your argument would prohibit anything new from entering the sport period, which is ludicrous.

by Chromium on Aug 24, 2010 2:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

You're ludicrous

This will just give the idea to fighters to not give a fuck about working on cardio cause they’ll be thinking “fuck it, i’ll just take a few hits from the canister inbetween rounds when I get tired”. Taking a hit from one these canisters can mean an entire fight, if Carwin had this he might not have gassed. I’m not saying that fighters shouldn’t be allowed to use it during training but they definitely should not be allowed during a fight.

by av1o3 on Aug 24, 2010 5:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

You seriously think this would be some miracle replacement for cardio? Are you insane? This is 1940s technology. Only the size of the canister and low price are what make this item different. Oh, and marketing.

If you think that a few puffs of purified oxygen is some kind of miracle booster, you are insane. It is a minor boost, like a swig of water is a minor boost. It might be able to somewhat help you catch your breath between rounds, but it will not replenish your energy. And a few hits before a fight all it can do is help focus your breathing and maybe give you a few extra seconds before you wind. If you were to breath the stuff for ten minutes before a fight from a full-size canister, sure you wouldn’t gas, but you’d actually move slower since it would act as a sedative.

by Chromium on Aug 24, 2010 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

“We wouldn’t have a problem with the oxygen per se but the canister could contain most any type of vaporized substance in addition to oxygen that could include banned substances and it would be impossible to ascertain such at that point in time,” said Nick Lembo, the legal counsel for the New Jersey state athletic control board.

That’s why.

by Steve4192 on Aug 23, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who knows what’s in these cans even if they are sealed. It’s not like canned oxygen is a FDA regulated drug.

Waiver

Recreational oxygen is NOT FOR MEDICAL USE and is not intended to treat, cure or prevent any diseases. It should not be used if you have: asthma, lung or heart ailments without approval from your medical doctor. Always consult your physician before taking any supplement products. The statements and representations on this website have not been evaluated or approved by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, how about other, much more reputable commissions?

Keith Keizer doesn’t seem to have an issue with it.:

"If a contestant would like to use canned oxygen for a bout, he would need to clear the product with one of the commission’s ringside physicians to make sure the product does not contain any prohibited substances or would otherwise adversely affect the bout," said Keith Kizer, executive director of the Nevada state athletic commission.

Neither does Nick Lembo:

"We wouldn’t have a problem with the oxygen per se but the canister could contain most any type of vaporized substance in addition to oxygen that could include banned substances and it would be impossible to ascertain such at that point in time," said Nick Lembo, the legal counsel for the New Jersey state athletic control board.

(Quotes via the MMAFighting article linked above, I suggest reading the whole thing.)

The only real issue for NJ and NV is that there could be other substances in the canister. Since TX doesn’t seem to care to test in general, that’s not really an issue for them.

The awful refereeing is the real scandal here. Frightening hyperbole regarding the non-issue that is the oxygen only serves to dilute the very real problem that is created every time incompetent officials ref (and judge, for that matter) these bouts.

by capital L on Aug 23, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can we please also get a comment from King Mo and KJ Noons on this? Maybe a why this is the first time they were using it in the cage before a fight and why exactly they were using it?

Just BE.

by mattman73 on Aug 23, 2010 4:33 PM EDT reply actions  

King Mo

Got fined the last time he spilled rockstar, this is less messy

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by Thats It For you! on Aug 23, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

They would be wise to avoid stirring the pot

otherwise they could easily Carwin themselves into looking like idiots.

by truck on Aug 23, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Call me crazy but I would like to actually here from the fighters that were using the product.

Yea they may want to avoid stirring the pot on this but I would like to actually hear from the two people using the substance.

Questions like why start using it now? What is the purpose for it’s use? What does it do for the fighter using it right before a fight?

When exactly did the fighter find out it was approved for use? Who told the fighter is was ok to use in the ring before the fight?

Was there a sponsorship deal involved?

You know things like that from the fighters themselves since they were actually using the product.

Just BE.

by mattman73 on Aug 23, 2010 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also it might be interesting to see if the fighters and their fight camps stories on how the use of oxygen was approved matches the story of the ring side doctor and the Athletic Commission. You know to see what steps the fighter or fighter’s camp did to get the approval in their own words.

Maybe a step by step time line coming from King Mo and KJ Noons camp on how they gained approval for the use of oxygen. Was it approved weeks before the event? Or days before the event? Or hours before the fight? Or was the call made ringside when it was brought out by the corner? when it was given approval that oxygen was ok to use where all fighters made aware it was approved?

To me there is a few more questions that still need to be answered before this can be put completely to rest. What if the fight camps have a different story on how the oxygen was approved?

Just BE.

by mattman73 on Aug 23, 2010 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

otherwise they could easily Carwin themselves into looking like idiots.

XD

by Chromium on Aug 23, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Texas has a track record of not drug testing

They have a track record of not testing because they don’t actually have a prohibited substances list or testing methods as part of their regulations yet. From a regulatory standpoint they are in the stone age still. That is the real story about substances used at the event, Texas doesn’t even have a banned substance list to regulate for. If your not currently drunk or stoned you are good to get in the cage in Texas.

Current regulation

(o) The administration or use of any drugs or alcohol during, or up to 24 hours before a contest is prohibited unless a drug is prescribed, administered or authorized by a licensed physician and the Executive Director authorizes the contestant to use the drug. If a contestant is taking prescribed or over the counter medication, he/she must inform the Executive Director of such usage at least 24 hours prior to the contest.
(p) As a condition of licensure, contestants waive right of confidentiality of medical records relating to treatment or diagnosis of any condition that relates to the contestant’s ability to participate in a contest. All medical records submitted to the Department are confidential, and shall be used only by the Executive Director or his/her representative for the purpose of ascertaining the contestant’s ability to be licensed or participate in a contest.
(q) Medical disqualification of a contestant is for his own safety and may be made at the recommendation of the examining physician or the Department. If a contestant disagrees with a medical disqualification, medical suspension or rest period set at the discretion of a ringside physician or a disqualification set by the Department, he may request a hearing to show proof of fitness. The hearing shall be provided at the earliest opportunity after the Department receives a written request from the contestant or his manager.

Proposed amendment to add testing and regulation of “substances”

The Department proposed amendment to §61.47(o) and new subsections (p) – (q) prohibits the use of any drugs, alcohol, stimulants or injections before or during a bout, to require an applicant or licensee to provide a urine sample at the executive director’s direction and to codify a list of prohibited substances that would be conclusive evidence of a violation. The drugs proposed for inclusion in §61.47(q) are those covered by the World Anti-Doping Agency 2010 Prohibited List.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 4:55 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

good find

that’s jesus.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Aug 23, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pretty scary isn’t it. Texas can’t even regulate steroid or pain killer use in combat sports at this point and we are all worked up over a can of oxygen……

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

MMA fans are trying to protect their favorite sport. The only downside is if the same fans are unnecessarily burning down the reputation of a fighter who was working within the existing rules.

Does anyone outside of MMA websites actually know of this issue? I don’t think much will happen until it gets exposure on ESPN.

by Rufford on Aug 23, 2010 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Using canned oxygen in Texas isn’t part of the existing rules it’s allowed because Texas has no banned substance rules.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

So no one is cheating when there are no rules against the compressed O2. Lashley is technically in the clear because of the mismanagement of TDLR.

I’m saying that MMA fans getting worked up on MMA fansites will not be a strong motivator for the TDLR to take the necessary steps to make it a respectable.

1. Adopt that proposed amendment you’ve found.
1. Test before and after fights with more sophisticated testing than urine sampling.

At least we are watching and raising to the light the issues that are being ignored by governing bodies.

by Rufford on Aug 23, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

In Texas they wouldn’t of been cheating if they used steroids by the same logic. Fans getting worked up on MMA fansites means nothing at all because we are just talking for our own personal enjoyment, the guys writing the articles may influence the sitation but us in the comments section won’t. No one cares what we say under the articles in the comments section.

As far as Texas goes, that is the real story here, for as long as they have been regulating combat sports they are only now proposing basic drug testing. This points to there being some serious problems in Texas.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

glad this is cleared up

I was confused when I first read this story – whats allowed? what isn’t? is this cheating? etc etc. Happy that the Texas commission responded quickly to settle this.

And as a side note, oxygen or not, Noons was going to crush Gurgel. Who even knows what the full short term benefits are of using the stuff anyways.

by phillynix on Aug 23, 2010 5:14 PM EDT reply actions  

This should answer some questions
The use of compressed oxygen is popular in endurance and altitude sports. Some athletes apparently believe that inhaling compressed oxygen will aid in rapid recovery, as well as enhance performance and/or training.
The current use of supplemental oxygen during MMA competition is somewhat of a gray area. The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) as of Jan. 1 2010 removed supplemental compressed oxygen from its list of banned substances. But to my personal dismay, the powers that govern MMA in the U.S. have to date failed to adopt WADA standards. Each state continues to set its own standard when it comes to banned substances and performance-enhancing drugs.

from http://mmajunkie.com/news/20397/ask-the-fight-doc-what-did-strikeforce-fighters-spray-into-their-mouths.mma

by destructivist on Aug 23, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you go by the proposed amendment, that is correct. If you go by notion that there is an established ‘white list’ of items for a corner, incorrect.

The responses from TDLR seem to be consistent only when using that proposed amendment.

by Rufford on Aug 23, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not all athletic commissions use the WADA list (it is different from state to state) and the 2009 WADA list did have it as a banned substance so it would only be commissions that use the newest list. Texas opinion on it is meaningless due to lack of a banned substance list currently. In Texas Mo could of been huffing paint and popping diet pills during the fight.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Look on every NFL sideline. I know it’s two different sports, but every time you look on the sidelines some 300+ pounder or any guy coming off a long run is huffing oxygen.

by DayGeaux on Aug 23, 2010 5:35 PM EDT reply actions  

So I assume you would also be ok with King Mo entering the cage wearing a helmet?

by ufc4 on Aug 23, 2010 7:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

They also wear helmets in football. Should the fighters be wearing helmets?

Just BE.

by mattman73 on Aug 23, 2010 5:43 PM EDT reply actions  

reply fail…. should have been reply to DayGeaux..

Look on every NFL sideline. I know it’s two different sports, but every time you look on the sidelines some 300+ pounder or any guy coming off a long run is huffing oxygen.

Just BE.

by mattman73 on Aug 23, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know it’s two different sports, but every time you look on the sidelines some 300+ pounder or any guy coming off a long run is huffing oxygen.

yes. and they should play on grass during rain, snow or sunshine, but if they wear helmets you have to give them weapons.

by DayGeaux on Aug 23, 2010 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

So it’s safe to say it’s two very different sports with two very different sets of rules and probably isn’t a very good comparison of what is allowed in one should be allowed in the other.

Just BE.

by mattman73 on Aug 23, 2010 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let's see NFL drug testing > MMA drug testing. Because everyone knows MMA has great drug policies. GTFO

The NFL has one of if not the strictest drug policy of all major sports (besides maybe the Tour de France). For randoms, a guy shows up unannounced, sits on your couch and doesn’t let you leave his site before you piss. Go to GNC and check out what protein shakes you can get if you were in the NFL. More than half would be off the table. If they allow O2 then it’s probably not that big of a competitive advantage nor is it harmful to the players. The only big deal in this is that it seems no one checked to see if there was just O2. That is a problem.
Can comparing things in two different sports with different rules be a bad comparison? Yes. Is that the case in this argument? No. It’s oxygen. Not asthma medicine, not amphetamines, not steroids, just oxygen.

by DayGeaux on Aug 23, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

You do realize they allow football players to come off the field and get shot up with pain killers and then go back in the game right? They ain’t going to allow that any time soon in combat sports or do you think they should since it’s allowed in football?

Just BE.

by mattman73 on Aug 23, 2010 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

They don’t shoot them up with pain killers. They shoot them up with anti-inflammatory’s. The same that was offered to Kimbo before he turned down a fight in TUF.

by DayGeaux on Aug 23, 2010 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Your kidding right?

Like many pro football players Favre would — almost without thinking — take a numbing injection or a painkilling pill to get through a game. It’s tough to determine just how widespread this practice is, because painkillers aren’t detected in annual NFL drug screenings. But in the wake of Favre’s revelation, Robert Huizenga, a former team doctor for the Oakland Raiders and a past president of the NFL Physicians Society, said, “This is not an isolated incident. We want people to play hurt, and when someone doesn’t play hurt, he’s no longer our hero. We need a system where a physician, without fear of losing his job, can say to an athlete, ‘The injury is not healed. You cannot play.’”

As he walked out of the Chicago Bears’ training complex last Thursday carrying a small box of club-prescribed anti-inflammatory pills for a bulging disk in his back, linebacker Bryan Cox said that he thought half of the players in the NFL needed painkillers or anti-inflammatories to make it through a season. Phil Simms, who quarterbacked the New York Giants for 14 seasons before retiring in 1993, estimated that each NFL team would need a roster of 250 players to make it through a season if games were played with only healthy, nonmedicated players.
It didn’t seem so dangerous to Favre when he first experienced the wonder of painkilling medication, in his seventh NFL start, on Nov. 15, 1992, against Philadelphia. A second-year player at the time, he had separated his nonthrowing shoulder in the first quarter, and the pain was so intense that he didn’t think he could go on. “I saw [backup] Don Majkowski rarin’ to go, and if he’d gotten back in there, I may never have gotten my spot back,” Favre said. “At halftime the doctors said, ’It’s your choice, but we can shoot it up [with Novocain] without further injury.’ I said, ’Let’s do it.’ They had to pull my shoulder out, and they stuck the needle way down in my shoulder. In a little while I didn’t feel any pain. I played well, and we won the game. I thought, damn, that was easy.”

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/features/favre/flashbacks/bitter_pill/

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gatoraide isn’t allowed in MMA, it’s two different sports with two different focuses, two different goals and two entirely different rule sets. Team ball sports and individual combat sports are not the same at all.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

nfl drug testing is a joke.

And somethign being allowed in one sport doesn’t mean it’s ok in another.

You can get pain killers injected before, during, and after nfl games, should that be allowed in mma?

by Phildo on Aug 23, 2010 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lol, didn’t even see your comment before I posted mine. But yeah, I’m tired of the “they do it in the NFL so it should be ok” excuse, they’re different sports with different sets of rules.

by ufc4 on Aug 23, 2010 7:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

The Gurgel-Noons fight bothered me a lot more.

Gurgel should have been given 5 minutes to recover from that punch at the end of the first. If he couldn’t continue, the fight ould then be a No Contest.

The knee at the end of the fight, because it came after the ref decided to stop the fight, can’t influence the outcome of the fight. It was, however, an illegal blow, and perhaps should have netted a fine or suspension from the sanctioning body.

Incidentally, I think Noons’s knee and Jon Jones’s downward elbow on Matt Hamill were effectively the same foul. Neither was handled correctly.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Aug 23, 2010 6:06 PM EDT reply actions  

Anyone that thinks the TSAC dismissing this makes it a non-story needs to have their head examined.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 23, 2010 6:50 PM EDT reply actions  

And while many have suggested Lawal and Noons could have gained an unfair advantage with the breathing aid, Stanford said oxygen is not prohibited by the commission (Combative Sports Program statutes do not specifically address the use of oxygen; Stanford said banned substances include Monsel’s solution, silver nitrate, ammonium capsules and smelling salts).

“It’s my understanding that the physician did consult with the ringside physician, and it was approved by the physician,” Stanford said. “It was within (the rules).”

As much as you keep saying it has to be, it IS a non-story.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Aug 23, 2010 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

It creates new debates

Should other AC’s follow Texas’ lead?

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 23, 2010 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Where should the mob get all their pitchforks and torches? Where is Shorle’s house?

by Rufford on Aug 23, 2010 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

You see right through me – SO angry right now.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 23, 2010 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

What lead is there to follow? Lembo already said oxygen was cool. That’s the NJ commission, one with real teeth. You’re grasping at straws here. You’re trying to justify posting the rules 37 times last night and screaming from your soap box. There really is very little to see here.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Aug 23, 2010 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

3 times. Let’s see what Nevada has to say on this subject.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 23, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why would Nevada matter? Cali wrote the original unified rules. The NJSAC is who enacted them first. Nick Lembo is the man that people should be paying attention to.

Oh that’s right, Keith Kizer works for the UFC, and they operate out of Nevada. My bad. You just want to check with them to see if it’s okay.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Aug 23, 2010 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

http://www.mmafighting.com/2010/08/23/lawal-noons-cleared-in-canned-oxygen-controversy-rules-vary-by/

“If a contestant would like to use canned oxygen for a bout, he would need to clear the product with one of the commission’s ringside physicians to make sure the product does not contain any prohibited substances or would otherwise adversely affect the bout,” said Keith Kizer, executive director of the Nevada state athletic commission.

BIG STORY GUYZ.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 23, 2010 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

In the discussion of the Strikeforce Houston Controversies there have been several issues come up.

Why are consistently bad refs allowed to continue working?

Should a promotion drug test if the state doesn’t? How?

What is the state of combat sport rules in Texas? Other states?

I guess you might have already hashed out all this but as a relative newcome to the fandom, this is interesting discussion.

by Rufford on Aug 23, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

The issue he’s talking about is the oxygen can one, not the rest. Nate packaged it all into THIS story, but him and I are referring to the story last night about the cans.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Aug 23, 2010 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

The State of Texas and MMA

If a promoter wasn’t to use certain fighters of questionable history,they’ll hold the event in Texas.

by TERRENCEFROMSOUTHEAST on Aug 23, 2010 7:22 PM EDT reply actions  

http://thegarv.com/King-Mo-Speaks-on-Loss-and-Oxygen-Can.html

KALIN: Before your fight you were seen using an oxygen can that is considered a banned substance. What’s the story there?

 

KING MO: My manager and coaches approached the athletic commission before the fight and asked them about it. They said that it’s cool. The can is nothing but pure oxygen. It’s oxygen in a can. It’s like 95 percent oxygen. It’s like sucking in a little oxygen through a can. That’s it.

a kitten dies every time you compare an individual sport to a team sport.

by Marvin Malehooves on Aug 23, 2010 7:25 PM EDT reply actions  

/AND END OF STORY

sorry subo

Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down

by Austin Martin on Aug 23, 2010 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think there is still a few more questions that need answered.

Was King Mo’s opponent made aware of this minutes before the fight?

Was Feijao’s camp ok with King Mo being granted the right to have oxygen?

Just BE.

by mattman73 on Aug 23, 2010 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Don't see you asking those questions in your long list of questions you wanted answered.

Besides, King Mo and Noons clearly are robots who needed the can of air to remain functional.

perception is reality

by Marvin Malehooves on Aug 23, 2010 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

so...

crickets? what the fuck? A lot of you piss me off to a degree that is hard to find within a man on a message board.

perception is reality

by Marvin Malehooves on Aug 24, 2010 7:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

You need to get out more then.

Guillotine.

by iiowyn on Aug 24, 2010 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

I get out a ton. I’m getting home now after last night.. I don’t have time to sit around and deal with made up shit I created in my mind and defend it like it was fact.

 I have time to read stories and respond to STORIES and not fucking speculation and not a bunch of crybaby horseshit bullshit which has become this entire fucking comment base here up and down.

THERE ARE THE GODDAMN FACTS YOU SPENT fuckin 900+ comments screaming like little girls about looking for and pretending they existed and then responding to those pretend responses you made up in your heads

. . And… finally with no response to what actually happened. SHOCKING. RIGHT?

 And next time this happens it will be similar to this . the same response will happen. In the same exact way.

 I’m a giant pussy. I don’t give a fuck about random bullshit speculation and refuse to participate in blind denigration of human beings, organizations, etc. But If you’re going to fucking show your teeth then dont put in dentures when push comes to shove. It is insulting to everyone who has ever had to deal with anything you have ever had to say. And it makes you look like an insufferable bastard who is going to consistently be full of shit.

That’s all.

perception is reality

by Marvin Malehooves on Aug 24, 2010 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

I forgot to mention

posted from mmalogic’s lamborghini MMA app.

perception is reality

by Marvin Malehooves on Aug 24, 2010 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Also

I’m sorry iiowyn, I like you most of the time.

perception is reality

by Marvin Malehooves on Aug 24, 2010 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

and almost all of this was directed at people other than you. I’m just pissed. but i feel justifiably so in some way.

perception is reality

by Marvin Malehooves on Aug 24, 2010 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

If your competing in MMA

and use an oxy can, your a pussy. Reguardless if its legit or not.

by MrTechnique420 on Aug 23, 2010 7:54 PM EDT reply actions  

Prior to last Saturday, is there another case of an MMA fighter using oxygen before and/or during a fight? Is there a case in boxing?

How did the whole idea of using oxygen even come up in the first place? Did the commission make an announcement? Have Noons/Mo’s (or other fighter’s) people tried to clear this with other commissions before fights, and this is simply the first time a commission said yes?

Don’t Mo and Noons have anyone around them smart enough to suggest that they might not want to deal with the stigma of being the first fighters filmed huffing out of canisters prior to fights? Why would they risk the stigma of being called a cheater in order to huff a placebo?

by Jahbulon on Aug 23, 2010 8:37 PM EDT reply actions  

Lashley/Griggs stand up

Anyone with any sense would recognize that the open cut to Lashey’s left eye was bleeding all over Griggs face as they wrestling on the mat. The cut was deep and freely bleeding into his opponent’s face and poses an unnecessary health risk. The Referee’s decision to separate and stand both fighters up for a doctor’s evaluation was legitimate and necessary.

by coyoteye on Aug 23, 2010 8:46 PM EDT reply actions  

BS

tons of fights involve ghastly and copious quantities of blood pouring all over everyone. See Sean Sherk vs kenny florian.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Aug 23, 2010 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dewees-Ray

I was seriously worried Gideon might drown.

by Steve4192 on Aug 23, 2010 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree

about the evaluation. The ringside doctor should have just put some vaseline on the cut and then the ref should have restarted the fight back in the same position.

by av1o3 on Aug 24, 2010 2:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just as expected

fucking crickets.

perception is reality

by Marvin Malehooves on Aug 24, 2010 9:16 AM EDT reply actions  

Hey Nate check this one out it's about your bend over buddy Luke!

The real question here is why is Luke Thomas writing such slanted articles without revealing both sides? Luke Thomas has a TV, a computer and an opinion and that’s it!

He cheapened this article by short cutting and coping other previously written articles because he’s lazy and cant do the proper research on his own. The same thing that Jordan Breen of Sherdog did.

OK, I don’t hate Schorle but I don’t love him either. But the fact is I’ve watched this guy for years refereeing boxing, kickboxing and MMA. He’s a very competent referee overall.

Let’s be fair and because Luke Thomas can’t be. Did anyone see the Leonard Garcia vs. The Korean Zombie fight in April on the WEC 48 first PPV card? Maybe the best MMA fight I’ve ever seen. Joe Rogan called it "the fight of the decade" and mentioned that Joe Silva the UFC matchmaker said "it was the best fight he’d ever seen". Schorle was the referee for that fight. How about on the same card the Mike Brown vs. Manny Gamburian fight? Schorle was the referee on that also. He made a perfectly timed stoppage. I just bought the DVD and watched in slow motion. The timing of the stop was perfect!

Since Luke Thomas brought it up lets talk about the Vitaly Klitscho vs. Corrie Sanders WBC Heavyweight champion fight from about 2004? I watched it live on HBO and they praised Schorle’s stoppage. What about that Luke Thomas you liar? In Kickboxing how about the K-1 Michael McDonald vs. Remy Bonjousky final in Vegas? They used to show it on ESPN2 all the time. Another great great fight and Schorle refereed that also.
With regards to the Katsidis vs. Casamayor fight, didn’t Ring magazine call it the best lightweight fight of 2008? And the 5th best fight of 2008. Yeah Schorle was the Referee for that one to.

Just this year there was the PPV Julio Ceaser Chavez Jr. fight against John Duddy in Texas. Schorle was praised for his handling from start to finish. Or the PPV Eric Morales vs. Jose Alfaro fight. No problems there just a great fight and Schorle was the referee on that one to.

I was at the Strikeforce show sitting in the 3rd row. Lashley had run out of gas and was just lying there. People in our section were calling a bum. All Schorle did was stand them up to get some action back in the fight. It looked like he called the doctor in secondary because Lashley was complaining about his eye. Lashley got his ass kicked by a nobody and now Strikeforce is crying. The guy is a sideshow not a real MMA fighter and he got exposed so that’s that.
   
Look, I don’t care if they vilify this referee or they honor him but lets at least be fair. All Luke Thomas did was go on the Internet and do a search. He found older articles written by Lame f*cks like the (pocked face) Steve Kim of Max boxing or that (porn freak) from sherdog, Jordan Breen. He rewrote some of the context and copied word for word other parts. What a piece of sh*t Luke Thomas is!
(If none of you have ever seen Josh Gross of sports illustrated he is the biggest dork in MMA. Josh Gross was at a party in Ca. in 2006 and trying to fit in so he took a huge bong hit and fell over like a tree going timber! It was the biggest joke in MMA in Ca. for a couple of years. Wonder if Josh Gross has gotten any better smoking dope since then?)

The cool thing is now we know what this Luke Thomas fag looks like. Luke, is that really a beard or did your cat die? Get a real job mommy’s boy!

by bigKarl on Aug 25, 2010 11:22 AM EDT reply actions  

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