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Were Strikeforce: Houston Fighters Using Illegal Oxygen Cans?

Middle Easy put up a very interesting article where they posted photos of KJ Noons and Mo Lawal using some sort of inhaler prior to their fights at Strikeforce: Houston. Here's the photo of Mo using the canister in the cage:

Kingmospray_medium

Middle Easy would go on to confirm the exact brand of portable oxygen can the fighters were using. For those of you wondering what the big deal is if it was just oxygen, they cover that as well:

For those of you wondering what the big deal is, the concept of breathing pure oxygen can help a free-diver double submersible time. It also helps climbers breathe at high altitude so that they can continue to ascend mountains at an normal pace, despite thin air. The entire concept behind the compressed-oxygen spray is to keep an athlete from tiring out, which would be OK, except when one person has this cardio-boosting puffer while his opponent doesn’t.

I have talked a lot about Luis Resto in the past. Resto is the boxer whose trainer, Panama Lewis, removed the padding from his gloves before his bout with Billy Collins which ended Billy's boxing career and led to a car crash a few years later that most believe was suicide. As pointed out by Middle Easy, Resto would admit that Panama put crushed up asthma pills in his water bottles to add the same kind of oxygen boost. It is believed that Panama did the same thing for Alexis Arguello in his first bout with Aaron Pryor Aaron Pryor in his first bout with Alexis Arguello. It's an old school, illegal trick in boxing used to achieve that same energy level boost as this canned oxygen.

This is a situation that demands some sort of answers from both the state of Texas and Strikeforce. Someone needs to tell us what happened and why this was allowed to happen. Luke Thomas has Scott Coker on MMA Nation tonight and I'll be listening in hopes that this gets brought up.

The combination of the lack of drug testing and what seem to be illegal (in the sport) oxygen canisters being used just reinforces my belief that major MMA needs to stay away from Texas until their athletic commission gets their act together. I'll be reaching out to the athletic commission to see if I can get a statement from them on this situation.

Strikeforce_houston_event_button_medium

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Sorry for the double post everyone. I fucked up and put “strikeforce: nashville” on the original which totally fucked up our permalink.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 6:32 PM EDT reply actions  

And the first sentence is still wrong.

by ufc4 on Aug 22, 2010 6:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

fuck my life...

it sure is. I was more concerned about the title and link.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Shane Carwin?

I want Kim Winslow or Tan Dan to ref Tito Ortiz' next loss.

by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Aug 23, 2010 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

I noticed this last night and thought it was pretty fishy as well.

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by Brian Mayes on Aug 22, 2010 6:33 PM EDT reply actions  

Me too

I was wondering what it was when KJ used it prior to his fight. He was saying something to the Ref (I think Big John) and then used the can.

I thought he might have some kind of asthma, but if this is illegal it seems strange they used it so openly on the telecast.

by JCBee on Aug 22, 2010 8:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Shane Carwin? Is that you? Don’t be hating on the Zoolander’s hair!

by YoungGun on Aug 23, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

The punch after the bell was not “illegal” as he was in the act of throwing it as the bell rang. He couldn’t get a win off of it, but he also wouldn’t be DQ’ed. It would have been a no contest

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, I’m not saying it was ‘illegal’, but it was an act that (loosely) occurred outside of the parameters of the rule-set—one that was not treated as such. Either way, it’s another piece of the puzzle of a clusterfuck of a match that totally boned Gurgel.

by TheChairman on Aug 22, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

To be fair, Gurgel was begging to lose that fight. He was running into punches like he always does. “Lets strike with the striker!” What a joke.

by Jason H. on Aug 22, 2010 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Now we know how Strikeforce rigs the winners

Too bad it backfired last night.

Did anybody see Bobby Lashley’s oxygen tank?

█♣█
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by thetakeover on Aug 22, 2010 6:36 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

the =\

http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/

by Cory Braiterman on Aug 22, 2010 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Turns out Strikeforce is worse at fixing outcomes than we thought.

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by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

elite xc

Semper Fi'
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Pain don't hurt...

by RolloTomasi on Aug 22, 2010 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

You gotta be kidding me

We get these colossal upsets that everyone is saying is bad for Strikeforce, and you accuse them of rigging fights?

I don’t care if you’ve been brainwashed by Dana White. Just STFU and let the rest of us enjoy MMA.

by Mint on Aug 24, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Shouldn’t Strikeforce share some of the blame for this as well? They have to be aware and in control of everything going on inside their cage. Yes somethings you can’t control but this is pretty blatant and being used by more then one of their main card fighters.

by JoeMimic on Aug 22, 2010 6:38 PM EDT reply actions  

Strikeforce isn’t in control of much in the cage once its time for the fights. At that point, they’re basically turning over control to the commission.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is a situation that demands some sort of answers from both the state of Texas and Strikeforce.

I want to hear what they have to say. But at the same time it’s the commission that stands cageside as fighters enter and oversee the actual action in the cage. It’s much more on the commission than Strikeforce, but Strikeforce has to say something about it now. If they refuse to acknowledge it…that’s an issue to me.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Lot of negativity to acknowledge with Strikeforce. Lots of things that are in and out of their control are going wrong for them. What are some positive subjects to put in between? Just so Coker doesn’t run screaming.

by Rufford on Aug 22, 2010 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

There were some fun fights yesterday

That main event was pretty exciting. That’s something they have going for them.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

by Neil Manich on Aug 22, 2010 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

What would be a practical way for Strikeforce to remedy the problem? Have Scott Coker rush into the cage and stop the fights because the fighters are puffing on little oxygen cans, which the comission seems to have no problem with? Chances are that nobody at SF knew they were going to use these things.

This is entirely the responsibility of the Texas Commission. They had oversight of the regulation of this event and failed to do their job.

Regarding the oxygen cans specifically, is there actually anything in the Texas rules of MMA that prohibits them?

by smoogy2 on Aug 22, 2010 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

It actually doesn’t say only items on the list constitute approved items. Nor does it say that any item NOT on that list is automatically unapproved. You are reading that into the regulation.

by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 22, 2010 9:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

It says “these items are approved” and “unapproved items may be met with punishment.” I don’t think “items that are not approved are unapproved” is a great leap. We’ll see soon enough, I suppose.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Could the commission approve of a substance not on currently on the list of approved substances. Technically how do you classify pure oxygen or oxygen concentrated air? Is it really a “substance”? Football players used oxygen on the sidelines. Is this something that will soon be approved and used by everyone that chooses to use it or will it be specifically be classified as a banned performance aid?

by YoungGun on Aug 23, 2010 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Texas doesn’t have a banned substance list. They can’t really approve or prohibit at this point, heck they can’t even test at this point. Texas being a mess is the real story here.

Football players using it is 100% irrelevant as combat sports aren’t ball sports. WADA banned it in 2009 but is allowing it in 2010 so this is going to be an issue that will probably vary from state commission to state commission at this point.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Current regulation

(o) The administration or use of any drugs or alcohol during, or up to 24 hours before a contest is prohibited unless a drug is prescribed, administered or authorized by a licensed physician and the Executive Director authorizes the contestant to use the drug. If a contestant is taking prescribed or over the counter medication, he/she must inform the Executive Director of such usage at least 24 hours prior to the contest.
(p) As a condition of licensure, contestants waive right of confidentiality of medical records relating to treatment or diagnosis of any condition that relates to the contestant’s ability to participate in a contest. All medical records submitted to the Department are confidential, and shall be used only by the Executive Director or his/her representative for the purpose of ascertaining the contestant’s ability to be licensed or participate in a contest.
(q) Medical disqualification of a contestant is for his own safety and may be made at the recommendation of the examining physician or the Department. If a contestant disagrees with a medical disqualification, medical suspension or rest period set at the discretion of a ringside physician or a disqualification set by the Department, he may request a hearing to show proof of fitness. The hearing shall be provided at the earliest opportunity after the Department receives a written request from the contestant or his manager.

Proposed amendment

The Department proposed amendment to §61.47(o) and new subsections (p) – (q) prohibits the use of any drugs, alcohol, stimulants or injections before or during a bout, to require an applicant or licensee to provide a urine sample at the executive director’s direction and to codify a list of prohibited substances that would be conclusive evidence of a violation. The drugs proposed for inclusion in §61.47(q) are those covered by the World Anti-Doping Agency 2010 Prohibited List.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

and that’s why you’re a reporter, not a lawyer.

Where’s Rome when you need him?

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Strangely enough…before reading this I actually sent it over to rome and asked what he thought…

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now, however, where I see the potential for discrepancy, legalese-wise:

subparagraph 1 uses the term “approved SUPPLIES”

subparagraph 2 uses the term “use of unapproved SUBSTANCES”

approved supplies are defined. Approved SUBSTANCES are not. Interesting.

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s really sloppy writing of the statute, the more I think about it now….

It clearly defines what are approved supplies, but doesn’t state the punishment for using unapproved supplies.

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

hmm...

odd.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, in that case, I shall concede the point, and simply say I am shocked that you would read that subsection the way that you have.

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve looked at the whole thing so I know there is a mechanism to make exceptions on the spot.

by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 22, 2010 10:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Is there a deadline as to when the written explanation has to be released?

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well
Approved supplies are ice, which must be in an ice bag or Department approved container, water, cotton swabs, gauze pads, clean towels, Adrenalin 1:10,000, Avitene, Thromblin, petroleum jelly or other surgical lubricant, medical diachylon tape, Enswel, and electrolytes.

The thing about commission rules are that they are supposed to be clearly defined. They state that these ARE THE approved items. It does not say anything about “or any other substance cleared by the commission” or anything else. The language of that rule gives the appearance of these being THE approved items.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

this.

I mean, I’m not a lawyer either, but that’s my reading of it.

(oh, I am a federal police officer, but hey, what do we know about reading legal statutes, right?)

(don’t answer that, Rome :P)

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is this really that difficult to comprehend?

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m on your side, generally, but see my above.

In terms of the legalese used, approved “supplies” are defined in 1), but the language is unapproved “substances” are mentioned in 3). That could be the loophole here.

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

That simply relates to punishment – the crux of the matter is that the “supplies” Noons and Lawal were seen using were not supposed to be ringside. The “unapproved” language is related to punishment – I’m curious as to what the hell they were doing there in the first place more than any potential sanctions at this point.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

“the crux of the matter is that the "supplies" Noons and Lawal were seen using were not supposed to be ringside”

This is absolutely true. But a lawyer might be able to weasel out of the punishment subsection applying to the “supplies” used by Noons and Lawal based on the language used.

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Amazing that you are devoting all this energy to arguing about a regulation you haven’t read.

by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 22, 2010 10:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

…aren’t we all devoting energy to this?

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I haven’t read the whole thing but I think the point Jonathan is making is that their is a mechanism that gives the commission the authority to approve supplies not listed in the statute. We don’t know if the fight camps asked if they could bring the oxygen cans ringside and were pre-approved by the commission. Most statutes are written for something like this when technology surpasses the written rules.

That may not have happened and the commission should come out and reprimand the camps that did use the oxygen. We just don’t know if they had permission or not yet, hopefully a representative will comment on the issue soon so everyone can stop speculating.

by YoungGun on Aug 23, 2010 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

“(1) Approved supplies are ice, which must be in an ice bag or Department approved container, water, cotton swabs, gauze pads, clean towels, Adrenalin 1:10,000, Avitene, Thromblin, petroleum jelly or other surgical lubricant, medical diachylon tape, Enswel, and electrolytes.”

The first sentence in the first section is clearly stating what all the approved substances are. It doesn’t suggest anywhere that the rules allow for additional items not included on the list.

by Dropkick434 on Aug 22, 2010 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I'm with you, this is what I thought when I read the rules

If you got something approved, it was fine.

That said, only certain fighters got it.

/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 22, 2010 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

How do I know what?

That if it’s approved, it’s ok? By readig what I saw and common sense.

If you mean that only certain fighters got it, well that is by eye sight from what we saw.

/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 23, 2010 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Right. But is it safe to assume that those were the only two fighters involved because those are the only two with fun animated GIFs?

by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 23, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

You're right, It's not

/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun

by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 23, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really, I just wish I could write warrants according to how Snowden reads regulations.

I would be a very happy man if that were the case. LMAO.

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was waiting for someone on here to bring this up. My question is what were the camps told by the state AC about the use of compressed oxygen? Having two fighters openly use on TV makes me wonder they were under a different assumption. Or maybe knew no one in Texas checks or tests for anything.

by John Nash on Aug 22, 2010 6:38 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

That's why I want to talk to the commission...

but it seems like they’re out until tomorrow.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

TOTALLY BUSTED!

WTF??? NOW I’M REALLY REALLY GLAD MO LOST VIA NASTY ELBOW KNOCK OUT. CHEATING ASS! NO EXCUSE. NO HIDING IT EITHER.

by taz66 on Aug 22, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

NOONS CAN WHINE ABOUT TITLE SHOT ALL HE WANTS.

To hell with him too. It was an illegal knee, or kick no matter how you look at it.

by taz66 on Aug 22, 2010 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

what's the official word from the Noons and King Mo camps?

 Are they trying to spin this? or, Hasn’t there been a statement? From what I have read, it’s even illegal to use an asthema inhaler before a fight. I would like to hear what both parties have to say first.

If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?

by whardiek on Aug 22, 2010 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mo should have inhaled knee repellent.

"...ride life straight to perfect laughter,
it's the only good fight there is."

by dancingChicken on Aug 23, 2010 6:37 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Robin, hand me down the shark repellent Bat Spray!

"...ride life straight to perfect laughter,
it's the only good fight there is."

by dancingChicken on Aug 23, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ah, the Sonnen windshield wiper attack.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Aug 23, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mo should have inhaled knee repellent.

"...ride life straight to perfect laughter,
it's the only good fight there is."

by dancingChicken on Aug 23, 2010 6:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

fucking PEDs, I lost control.

"...ride life straight to perfect laughter,
it's the only good fight there is."

by dancingChicken on Aug 23, 2010 6:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yea I think I will wait on who to blame until someone figures out if Texas actually allows this. Eitehr way it’s pretty bad for it to happen but if Texas is ok with it and the fighters know that then it’s different than if it’s banned in Texas too.

by who me on Aug 22, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

It shouldn’t matter if it’s legal in Texas or not. Fighters like W. Silva train their ass off with limited oxygen intake to get their cardio up and these guys can nullify all of that hard work with one little bottle. It’s insulting the the sport and other fighters.

'Ello G'vnor!

by IHateMMA on Aug 22, 2010 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Oh it’s bad either way it’s just that it’s a different bad that reflects on different entities depending on whether it’s something Texas allows or not. If it is allowed in Texas but not anywhere else that Strikeforce has fights then perhaps Strikeforce should step up here, if it’s also not allowed in Texas and the Texas athletic commission is just to stupid to catch them using them (or just doesn’t care about it’s own rules) then it’s a different discussion that needs to be had.

by who me on Aug 22, 2010 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can anyone that was there comment on other fighters doing it. Just because we only saw 2 on TV, doesn’t mean they were the only one’s doing it. Even if everyone was doing it, if they’re banned, that’s fucked.

by Phildo on Aug 22, 2010 6:41 PM EDT reply actions  

hahaha thats messed up i actually saw that episode

by beersnbroads on Aug 22, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

WALKIN ON SUNSHINE

by woooburn on Aug 22, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

That shit was fucked up.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brilliant

-Say man when I was growing up we wanted a Jacuzzi, we had to fart in the tub.

by NetLogic on Aug 22, 2010 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Either you or Middle Easy misunderstood the 'Asthma' medicine reference...

I saw that same documentary about Resto. The medicine Resto was given is in a different league of ‘PEDs’… it was not taken for its ability to increase the red blood cell’s oxygen affinity, but more so for its epinephrine/adrenergic (adrenaline) qualities. AKA, it was to increase heart rate and response rate, similar to a fighter taking a low dose of ADD medicine.

by beersnbroads on Aug 22, 2010 6:42 PM EDT reply actions  

For the record....

Panama Lewis was in Aaron Pryor’s corner in that fight, not Arguello’s…..Lewis asked for the black water bottle saying “the one I mixed”….after the 13 rd….then Pryor came out in the 14th full of energy and stopped Arguello.

by ultimoshogun on Aug 22, 2010 6:44 PM EDT reply actions  

right, resto was just admitting in this documentary to have drank the same infused water in his fights

by beersnbroads on Aug 22, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lewis would break apart antihistamine pills used to treat asthma and pour the medicine into the water, giving Lewis’s fighter greater lung capacity in the later rounds of a fight
Resto makes is that Lewis crushed a pill used to treat asthma and put it in his water bottle. The effect, Resto said, "was to open up the lungs" and allow him to get more oxygen in the latter stages of a fight.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's not arguing your point.

He’s saying you mixed up Arguello and Pryor. Panama Lewis was in Pryor’s corner, not Arguello’s.

by Verklemptomaniac on Aug 22, 2010 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh jesus....

i hate myself so much tonight

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Both are right

Those asthma pills increase lung capacity as well as adreneline. Very similar to ephedrrine.

Root for the home team jack ass

by KING FEDOR on Aug 22, 2010 8:55 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

ephedrine (mini thins) was used for asthma back in the day. also used to be in fat burning supplements like ‘Ripped Fuel’ b/c it got a bad rep.

It does make you more alert and give you more energy.

by fuzzy wuzzy on Aug 23, 2010 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Girlfriend in HS would give me extra inhalers I’d take a huge amount of pulls before weight training trials, then there was the time that I used it against Pennywise the clown and saved my friends

we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea

by Barack Lesnar on Aug 23, 2010 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Depending on the details here and Strikeforce’s level of involvement this might mean, to me at least, whether or not SF should be allowed to continue promoting fights. If they willfully influenced these fights like this that’s completely unacceptable.

Regardless, this seems to be a huge fuck up on their part.

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein"
- Goonisis

by Goonisis on Aug 22, 2010 6:47 PM EDT reply actions  

It's hard to say that...

…unless Strikeforce was going up to specific fighters and handing them the cans it’s hard to say they shouldn’t be allowed to promote.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

And Overeem....

Passed a “drug test” for Strikeforce too didn’t he?

by Cosmonutz on Aug 22, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Urine catches very few sophisticated drugs.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Probably the same test he would have taken

had he been signed to UFC

"I got a good Christian raising and a 8th grade education / Ain't no need in y'all in treating me this way." - Billy Joe Shaver

by duck on Aug 22, 2010 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

well yeah

that’s why i said depending on their level of involvement and the details. I’m just thinking out loud about he worst case scenario that SF either directly or even indirectly but knowingly allowed this to happen.

 I think (hope) it’s probably pretty unlikely that is how it went down though thankfully.

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein"
- Goonisis

by Goonisis on Aug 22, 2010 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

These post-fight scandals are becoming rather common with Strikeforce huh?

by ufc4 on Aug 22, 2010 6:51 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

It seems like Strikeforce’s biggest mistake was putting on an event in the state of Texas.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

by Neil Manich on Aug 22, 2010 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

The thought of this goofiness qualifying as a “scandal” is pretty funny. But hey, the Roger Huerta nonsense turned into a three day story, so why not? Here is a really catchy title…. OXYGENGATE

by smoogy2 on Aug 22, 2010 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

What?

That’s an on the spot supplement banned in pretty much every competitive sport and specifically NOT on Texas’ list of approved equipment for corner men. You’re shameless.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oxygen is widely used in competitive sports “on the spot”. Try finding an NFL sideline without tanks all over it.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Last time you saw an O2 tank at a MMA fight or a boxing match?

"I got a good Christian raising and a 8th grade education / Ain't no need in y'all in treating me this way." - Billy Joe Shaver

by duck on Aug 22, 2010 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know, NFL = MMA, right?

"I got a good Christian raising and a 8th grade education / Ain't no need in y'all in treating me this way." - Billy Joe Shaver

by duck on Aug 22, 2010 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m more pissed that the TSAC let them fight without shoulder pads than anything else.

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by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Don't even get me started on the lack of helmets...

"I got a good Christian raising and a 8th grade education / Ain't no need in y'all in treating me this way." - Billy Joe Shaver

by duck on Aug 22, 2010 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jorge Gurgel = Bronco Nagurski

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Well, that does it, you win.

I got nothing to follow that

"I got a good Christian raising and a 8th grade education / Ain't no need in y'all in treating me this way." - Billy Joe Shaver

by duck on Aug 22, 2010 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Guy said it was banned in all competitive sports. In fact, it’s used regularly in most professional sports. As usual, subo has no idea.

by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 22, 2010 8:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Hmm

I didn’t say “all”, I said “pretty much every” – where could I have gotten that phrasing? Again, from the Middle Easy piece that no one seems to have read:

What makes this interesting is that compressed oxygen is a substance banned from nearly every endurance sport, including MMA; in every state, including Texas.

I should have added “endurance”.

Watching people like you defend Strikeforce/attack its detractors these days gives me joy.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wait, you misquote the article and you’re bitching about people not reading the article?

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Aug 22, 2010 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

let's not keep this argument going...

Subo misquoted it, now it’s been corrected. Let’s all move back to the story and away from personal arguments over quotes

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ah, so it was a poor paraphrase of someone else’s wildy speculative article? Not sure what you being wrong has to do with Strikeforce honestly. Nor have I written about this. Again, you are a head scratcher.

by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 22, 2010 8:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

What, on God’s green Earth, is wildly speculative about stating that anything that is not approved is not approved?

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Did the commission approve the oxygen? Who knows? The fact it was used in the cage on multiple occasions would lead you to answer “yes.” I suppose we’ll find out tomorrow when this becomes an actual story or an afterthought.

by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 22, 2010 8:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

If it was allowed...

that’s another issue for the commission. I’d want to know if it was communicated out to all fighters as well as why it was allowed.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

The real problem is...

if their rules disallow it, and they decide to let it go…that’s not how commissions operate.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re saying they have a list of permitted supplies that isn’t all inclusive. It just seems all inclusive by definition to me.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

i think we went over all this crap with greasegate

Sometimes I think war is God's way of teaching us geography.

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by ReverendClint on Aug 22, 2010 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

GASP

You shouldn’t be here – you’re too clean

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by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

this will be my 3rd comment in 2 years… and there is a good reason for that

Sometimes I think war is God's way of teaching us geography.

Reverend Clint over at the best site eva Fightlinker.com

by ReverendClint on Aug 22, 2010 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

The rules define approved supplies, without any sort of basket clause.

 Except for the overarching authority of the Exec Director to disregard any rule he pleases, so long as he can defend it according to the statute.

You kinda have a choice here. You can be a lawyer, and hide behind the minute chance that the latter is the case….

or you can be a journalist, and be EXTREMELY SKEPTICAL that the rules have been obeyed, and hold the Commission’s feet to the fire.

I kinda see which track you’ve aligned yourself with so far.

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don't think in lawyer/journalist terms

Think of how people would react if two main card UFC fighters were caught on camera using apparently unapproved substances right before a fight. There would be mobs with torches in the streets, not people arguing that it’s probably fine, and some people would be on the other side of this chasm if the organization involved were different.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wouldn’t that render their written guidelines meaningless? Why would Texas allow what every other state that regulates MMA doesn’t?

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Uh...

Because Texas is largely composed of Texans?

BOOSH

by Farthammer on Aug 23, 2010 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Now I know how Californians feel when I talk endless shite about their failed state. Sorry Cali.

by Rufford on Aug 23, 2010 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

I suspect the feds will eventually subsidize our failure with your money, so it’s all good.

Bolts from the Blue // "Sometimes you would get the sense that people felt bigger than the team," Gates said. "Not to say it was an issue, but we know it’s not an issue for sure now."
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by Richard Wade on Aug 23, 2010 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Which you gave to us paying for energy you weren’t willing to make yourself. S’alright.

by Rufford on Aug 23, 2010 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

It will make up for the Enron/rolling blackout energy scam they pulled on us a few years ago.

by John Nash on Aug 23, 2010 3:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

If Texas did allow it

You best your ass it’s a big story.

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein"
- Goonisis

by Goonisis on Aug 22, 2010 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Either way, really

Either Noons and Mo had access to something they should not have or Texas decided to verbally allow something banned in every other jurisdiction.

It’s not a non story. That’s just impossible.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

“Did the commission approve the oxygen? Who knows? The fact it was used in the cage on multiple occasions would lead you to answer "yes." "

This HAS to be some sort of fallacy. :P

“It happened, therefore, it must have been allowed!”

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think you get the benefit of Occam’s Razor just yet.

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well it’s banned in MMA Snowden, so what’s the difference?

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by Brian Mayes on Aug 22, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why miss an opportunity to change the conversation to “subo’s an idiot”?

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good question

we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea

by Barack Lesnar on Aug 22, 2010 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because it’s easier then being a full time hack?

by Beren on Aug 22, 2010 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

In the ring? Not unless someone is getting KOed. Then again, I’m not paying attention much to the inside of the ring these days. We practically never see fighter entrances unless its a UFC PPV or Strikeforce.

Just pointing out that saying that oxygen is a supplement “banned in pretty much every competitive sport” is completely wrong. Its used in just about every competitive sport, actually.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes score one for you in pointing out that he misquoted something at left one word out…. you want a cookie?

by who me on Aug 22, 2010 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

How about a NoPrize?

I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.

by Razreshat on Aug 22, 2010 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m such an ass.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with you that this should be characterized as a commission problem rather than a Strikeforce problem, but it absolutely is a scandal.

If the commission is not controlling what substances are being used in their cage, it also opens up the obvious question of what else are they missing? Are gloves being loaded up? Are guys taking in more than oxygen from those inhalers? Are their water bottles really filled with water. It would be irresponsible of BE not to seek clarification on this.

by Steve4192 on Aug 22, 2010 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, I’d agree that the Texas Commission has the appearance of being scandalously incompetent, but I don’t think the specific issue of these oxygen cans is scandalous. You’re right though, it should absolutely be taken as a symptom of a greater malady for the commission.

by smoogy2 on Aug 22, 2010 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I prefer Airway to Houston

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Doesn’t have “gate” in the title, MMA fans will have no idea what you’re talking about.

by smoogy2 on Aug 22, 2010 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Couldn’t agree with this any more.

Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
CagesideSeats.com

by Geno Mrosko on Aug 23, 2010 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

HeadlineGATE

/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
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by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 23, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

If they’re using it in training and being sponsored by them…that’s totally legal.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

as seen in the profile
It helps me recover much faster from my tough workouts. For someone who trains as much and as intensely as I do, recovery is critical. In addition, when I have multiple workouts in a day, the oxygen really helps me keep my energy high so I get the most out of my workouts.

I also use it before strength training because it helps me push out more reps.

No mention of “I use it moments before my fight”

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I thought athletes trained at altitude so that their bodies become used to low oxygen…which made them more efficient.

I would think that saturating your blood with oxygen while training would be counter productive.

Certainly would help recovery though I guess.

GSP is an alien sent here to humiliate our men and mate with our women

by MMA_Messiah on Aug 22, 2010 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Did I say that Wilks used it before the fight?

I was simply pointing out that this company already is involved in Mixed Martial Arts supplements.

by majuca8 on Aug 22, 2010 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dude...

relax, I wasn’t arguing I was just saying that it’s not an issue so that people didn’t get confused.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

its ok dude...

haha it seemed like you were trying to argue, and threw a fancy quote box up there, so i got defensive

by majuca8 on Aug 22, 2010 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was just wondering if this was some type of sponsorship deal. Just because two guys on the same card used the same product. Also first time ever seeing it.

Which if it is sponsorship deal then Strikeforce had to approve of it being in the cage right? So Strikeforce would have to know they were going to use it.

Just BE.

by mattman73 on Aug 22, 2010 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah thats what I was wondering too...

If this stuff was just for gym rats and body builders, but it seems like its used by other MMA fighters

by majuca8 on Aug 22, 2010 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is it too late for the UFC to move the upcoming Fight Night out of Texas?

by simpsycho on Aug 22, 2010 6:57 PM EDT reply actions  

The UFC is a million times better when it comes to officiating than Strikeforce. For one they’ll be drug testing at the Fight Night.

by MattParker117 on Aug 22, 2010 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

ah yes

if were going to cheat. lets do it with a camera 2 feet away and the referee standing next to me

by chunkyass on Aug 22, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Turns out King Mo

Was really King O.

█♣█
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who -- Jay-Z

by thetakeover on Aug 22, 2010 7:12 PM EDT reply actions   2 recs

King H2O

'Ello G'vnor!

by IHateMMA on Aug 22, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol

it’s like that letter that went around talking about all the bad things dihydrogen monoxide does (floods, drowning blah blah blah) and asked people to sign a petition to ban it and a lot did

by fuzzy wuzzy on Aug 23, 2010 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Pen and Teller’s Bullshit. Loved that episode.

by YoungGun on Aug 23, 2010 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

...

This makes me sad.

Go back to school.

by Shaun32887 on Aug 23, 2010 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Fail!

"I want to tell me what you see, let's go ahead and see by in the fight, what you saw, in the ring." - Tito Ortiz

by CasualMMAFan on Aug 23, 2010 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

King O2

You don't like wrestling in MMA? Go watch K-1.

by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Aug 23, 2010 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

The right thing for Texas to do

Is suspend both fighters and overturn the Noons/Gurgel fight.

Will that happen? Doubt it

by MattParker117 on Aug 22, 2010 7:19 PM EDT reply actions  

While I know that this largely falls within the Texas AC's relm of responsibility...

Its only Strikeforce that is continuing to have these issues over and over. Sure, its something different every time, but the common factor is that it is always a Strikeforce show.

As much as some like to act like the UFC maintains draconian control over their product, I think we are getting a lesson in why that is a good thing.

I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.

by Razreshat on Aug 22, 2010 7:21 PM EDT reply actions  

First example being the official in the prep point would of caught Noons. The three or four officials surrounding each corner prior to the start of the fight would probably of caught Mo as well. The job that Marc Ratner does cannot be overstated in this case.

by MattParker117 on Aug 22, 2010 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was ready to put all the blame on the Texas AC for this also but then I got to wondering if this was a sponsorship deal. Two fighters on the same card using the same product looks like some kind of sponsorship deal to me. So if it is a sponsorship deal and it’s illegal then I got to put a large amount of blame on Strikeforce for approving the sponsorship and allowing it in the cage to be used.

Just BE.

by mattman73 on Aug 22, 2010 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can someone find out if this company paid King Mo or KJ Noons to use this product in the cage?

Just BE.

by mattman73 on Aug 22, 2010 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Does SF have to approve all sponsorship deals? Did they even know?

The O2 company goes to both guys – “Hey, 5 grand if we can use your name and you use a can before your fight.”

I didn’t see an signage on the cage or the canvas, and neither fighter had signage on their shorts, right? SF may not have even known about a sponsorship deal.

"I got a good Christian raising and a 8th grade education / Ain't no need in y'all in treating me this way." - Billy Joe Shaver

by duck on Aug 22, 2010 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would be thrilled to see this issue get commission hearings and testimony like grease gate did.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

That won’t happen, because A) it’s Texas and B) no one besides the media is going to complain about it.

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by Brian Mayes on Aug 22, 2010 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope Gurgel files a complaint. Actually, I hope he files three or four.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Canned oxygen is the least of the things Jorge Gurgel has to bitch about to the commision.

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by Brian Mayes on Aug 22, 2010 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

i really would like to hear a competent ref explain what should have been done in between rounds.

by Phildo on Aug 22, 2010 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

“K.J. absolutely is not to blame for it,” said Gurgel, who also showed some sportsmanship at Friday’s weigh-ins when Noons missed weight by a half pound before quickly being excused by his opponent. “But I was on queer street. I didn’t know where my corner man was. That’s the first time that’s ever happened. That definitely made a little bit of difference in the second round.”

As for the illegal knee, which came just 19 seconds into the second round, Gurgel admits he got a lot of text messages after the fight. Friends and family were complaining about the knee, which appeared it at least grazed Gurgel’s head, making it an illegal blow. But the Ohio-based fighter can’t fault his opponent.

“People are biased,” said Gurgel, who thinks the knee was accidental and simply a heat-of-the-moment mistake. “People like me, and they like my career, so they’re biased. But all I have to say is that it’s not K.J. Noons’ fault. His job is there to fight until the referee pulls him off. I would have done the same thing.”

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Do you mean...

the situation in which one fighter had grease inadvertently wiped on them by their corner. Then it was caught by the AC and corrected. However, because the losing fighter has a history of being unable to sane-ly deal with losses he made a complete mess out of it?

That Grease Gate?

I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.

by Razreshat on Aug 22, 2010 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

“No, I mean the completely disproportionate event that happened in the UFC that I’ve arbitrarily grouped in with this unrelated, more serious instance. Try to keep up.”

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, thanks...

I was getting confused.

I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.

by Razreshat on Aug 22, 2010 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is more serious? OK. the point stands that this kind of dumb shit happens regardless of promotion.

by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 22, 2010 11:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I think this is more serious because nobody wondered whether Vaseline was allowed cageside.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

That, and...

the grease situation was actually addressed during the bout in question by the representatives of the AC. The really drama of the situation was Penn’s handling of his loss.

I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.

by Razreshat on Aug 22, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

The AC was super dramatic. I saw it with a UF. PR Rep and we had no idea what was up but knew it was big.

by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 23, 2010 12:06 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

GSP/Penn II was one of the biggest and most hyped events of the past few years and featured very popular and long-standing UFC champions in a superfight.

Strikeforce: Houston was a Strikeforce card that few people outside of dedicated MMA fans knew about.

There’s more to the imbalance of coverage than just the severity of the misdeeds at play here, bud. If you want the UFC to be the big bad gorilla, you’re gonna have to deal with it getting more shit thrown at it.

by Mike Fagan on Aug 23, 2010 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hey

I’d rather be in my position than someone else as far as org preference. I’m saying that “something very different in scope and realm happened last January!” seems more like deflection than anything else.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 23, 2010 2:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

The problem is that you’re making this into an issue about orgs. I’m specifically talking about this comment:

“Think of how people would react if two main card UFC fighters were caught on camera using apparently unapproved substances right before a fight. There would be mobs with torches in the streets, not people arguing that it’s probably fine, and some people would be on the other side of this chasm if the organization involved were different.”

There would be much more uproar because the UFC is a much bigger deal. Folks like you and mmalogic love to point out how the UFC is like the NFL of MMA. Well, if that’s true (and right now, it’s hard to argue otherwise), why are you so shocked and/or disappointed that a similar story isn’t being given near the same level of coverage when it happens in the CFL/Arena League of MMA?

The amount of coverage is basic mathematics when you consider the amount of eyeballs that watch a UFC 94 type of pay-per-view (which may or may not get ESPN coverage/crawl) and a random Strikeforce on Showtime event.

That isn’t to say this (and many other commission gaffes on Saturday) aren’t an issue and shouldn’t be investigated by the media. They should be. But you shouldn’t turn this into “OMG PEOPLE WOULD TAKE ARMS AND HOLD BABIES HOSTAGE IF THIS HAPPENED UNDER DANA WHITE’S WATCH” just because it happened outside of Zuffa’s bosom. Especially when the issue has to do more with the commissions rather than the promoter/promotions involved.

by Mike Fagan on Aug 23, 2010 3:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m simply having fun extrapolating how those that are attempting to sweep this under the rug/obfuscate the issue would react if it were Zuffa. I, for one, would have the exact same reaction, and I wish others were as consistent.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 23, 2010 3:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

By turning it into an issue of organizations, I believe you weaken and undermine the whole argument.

by Mike Fagan on Aug 23, 2010 3:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

I sure hope not – that’s not what I’m trying to do. I’m saying that I would be equally up in arms about this if it was Shark Fights, Jim Bob’s Backyard MMA Extravaganza or The Big Show, and I’d like those that don’t think it’s that big a deal to pretend it happened somewhere else. I’m trying to impart to every one how important it is that the AC’s rules and regulations are followed by both fighters at all times.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 23, 2010 3:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Then just argue the point as is, sir. No need to bring the UFC into this.

by Mike Fagan on Aug 23, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

serves that nitpicker right

by fuzzy wuzzy on Aug 23, 2010 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Side thought

I have exercise-induced asthma.

I’ve always wondered, if I were to try and compete in MMA, would I be allowed to use my prescription inhalor before a fight?

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 7:32 PM EDT reply actions  

Same here.

God I hate that. It makes it so I don’t even want to do Cardio at all.

by J_Maddux on Aug 22, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mine’s not too bad. If I take medication pre-workout, I can perform as well as anyone else, except the extreme cardio freaks that I used to train with (Hominick, Stout, et al) (ya ya, name-dropping, I know)

But without it beforehand, forget it, I’d be dying after round 1 of a fight.

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

One of Melvin Guillards fights

I remember him taking a puff right before entering the octagon. I’m sure if its albuterol there isn’t any problems

by WINRAR on Aug 22, 2010 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

?

Isn’t Albuterol a lung steroid? I am no doctor just something i heard.

"To resist is to piss in the wind......"

by Hell_Bent on Aug 23, 2010 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

you heard incorrect

however inhaled steroids are a long term treatment for asthma
and no, they’re not that kind of steroids

by fuzzy wuzzy on Aug 23, 2010 1:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

Am I wrong for thinking this isn't that big of a deal?

A little breath of 100% oxygen before the fight isn’t going to tilt the playing field THAT much, no? This isn’t between rounds and they are recovering from being gassed unnaturally, at best it’s a pre-fight amp up whose advantage disappears within 15 seconds I would think. It’s something that shouldn’t be allowed and it’s probably cheating, but I mean NFL players sit on the sidelines and breathe on pure oxygen for extended periods of time

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Aug 22, 2010 7:32 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Don't be afraid to nitpick

There’s a list of shit that your corner is allowed to have. That ain’t on it. That makes this a story.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's obviously a story

But this doesn’t seem to be something that anyone should really freak out about—-I’m just afraid of the “KJ Noons iz teh cheaterz!” reactions.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Aug 22, 2010 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, he took something he wasn’t allowed to take right before he stepped into the cage. What do you call it? I hate Noons already, but it’s perfectly fair for me to expect a professional athlete to know the rules.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's the thing though

The way two of them did it right in front of the cameras. The way the commission did nothing to stop it. The way the commission seems to be just all kinds of crazy. It sounds like there’s more to this. I need to learn more about the regulation against these type of inhalers.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

by Neil Manich on Aug 22, 2010 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

What I'm saying

Is that the commission shouldn’t have to smack something out of a cornerman’s hand during the walk-in. Noons and his people had access to a list of acceptable objects to bring ringside and went beyond it anyway.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are you certain these inhalers are against the Texas athletic commission’s rules? If you are then that’s that. I’m not.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

by Neil Manich on Aug 22, 2010 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

JESUS CHRIST ALMIGHTY

Did no one read the post that this piece is based upon?

Control-v

(i) A second shall be responsible for a contestant’s corner supplies.

    (1) Approved supplies are ice, which must be in an ice bag or Department approved container, water, cotton swabs, gauze pads, clean towels, Adrenalin 1:10,000, Avitene, Thromblin, petroleum jelly or other surgical lubricant, medical diachylon tape, Enswel, and electrolytes. Electrolytes must be brought to the ring in the manufacturer’s sealed container. Electrolytes must be opened for the first time in the presence of a representative of the Department. All coagulants shall be in a container with the proper manufacturer’s label and not contaminated by any foreign substance.

    (2) All containers shall be properly labeled with the manufacturer’s label and not contaminated by any foreign substance.

    (3) The use of an unapproved substance may result in disciplinary action.

    (4) Only water and electrolytes shall be permitted for hydration of a contestant between rounds. Honey, glucose, or sugar, or any other substance may not be mixed with the water.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Facts are a bitch, ain’t they?

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nothing in that says that anything...

Not on the approved list is unapproved. If that was the case, it’d be in there. That’s not to say that means it’s automatically approved either though, but there is no way of knowing until the commission actually speaks.

Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com - Artist formerly known as Sklz711

by Jacob Hayes on Aug 22, 2010 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

“Nothing in that says that anything Not on the approved list is unapproved. "

Spoken like someone who doesn’t read legal documents for a living.

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do people really think they made a list of approved things without implying that anything not on that list was, presto, not approved? Why else make a list?

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m starting to wonder myself.

Without a basket clause in the section saying so, or some other section saying “TSAC can change any of these rules on a whim” there’s no reason to question your assessment of what constitutes “approved supplies” and that this oxygen shit clearly does not qualify.

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

The list specifies what is definitely allowed (the stuff on the list) and what is definitely not allowed (basically foreign substances). The reason it was written that way was for gray-area items to be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This is extremely standard in any sort of law or bylaw anywhere. For instance, it would be really difficult to make a case that compressed oxygen fits as a PED, mostly because it is in no way a drug. It helps someone catch their breath between rounds.

Also, the Middle Easy article comparing it to illicit asthma tablets crushed into boxers’ water is ridiculous, since asthma tablets generally contain ephedrine. Then again the Middle Easy article made a pretty big jump in general with the amount of outrage it is making over this.

Anyway I have a hard time seeing this substance being banned. You’d think there might be the slightest attempt at subterfuge if it were. My guess is that because of the way the rules were written, no action will be taken against either King Mo or KJ Noons, and athletic commissions will then have to decide individually whether this device should be banned.

by Chromium on Aug 23, 2010 3:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

No action will be taken because Texas doesn’t even have a banned substance list or any testing policies in place in thei regulations. Hell Mo could of been huffing glue and licking toads in there and Texas wouldn’t of done anything.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 8:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Unless you're a lawyer...

I’ve participated in more court cases than you have I’m willing to bet, and one thing you’ll find in legal documents is that unless things are spelled out in either the affirmative or otherwise they occupy the legal grey area that is subject to argument until you’re blue in the face.

Are you going to argue that they can’t have oxygen while they are fighting? Are you going to try to say that oxygen is an unapproved substance, if so every fighter on the card has some explaining to do since they were all sucking wind at one point or another. From all the screen caps the containers that contained the oxygen met the requirements of rule 2, since only ice has to be in a department approved container.

Since I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt on all of this, I’m going to assume your thought process is that the concentration of the oxygen is your problem, at which point I’d say the only time concentration was specifically mentioned as an issue was in the case of adrenaline.

I’m not saying that concentrated oxygen doesn’t help the fighters in some way, I’m saying it’s entirely possible that either it was ruled as not violating any rules as it was a pure substance that was already in use by all fighters, or one of a few other different reasonings by the athletic commission.

The main thing I’m taking issue with both in this thread, and further down, is Subo’s repeated quoting of the exact same excerpt of a much larger document and then acting like everyone else is of lesser intelligence because he has the applicable gospel for the situation, when in reality it’s anything but. The story may continue to be how terrible the TSAC is for allowing such a thing to happen, or approving it, or having fairly terrible rules in the first place. It may become King Mo screwed up, or whoever else, however the borderline name calling, and arrogance isn’t needed, and doesn’t belong here from my experience.

Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com - Artist formerly known as Sklz711

by Jacob Hayes on Aug 23, 2010 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

You do know that what has been posted here is just the administrative rules for Texas right? It doesn’t get into banned substances or actual MMA regulations it’s just the regs on how to run an event. Everyone on both sides is still just rampantly speculating without any real meaning (it is a comments section on a blog after all).

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

On further reading of the Texas regulations it appears there may not actually be a banned substance list in Texas, if that is the case then the story here would actually be “what the hell is wrong with Texas?”

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

 "what the hell is wrong with Texas?"

Some people have been asking that for years.

j/k of course

by HarmlessNinja on Aug 23, 2010 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yep Texas sucks :D
The Department proposed amendment to §61.47(o) and new subsections (p) – (q) prohibits the use of any drugs, alcohol, stimulants or injections before or during a bout, to require an applicant or licensee to provide a urine sample at the executive director’s direction and to codify a list of prohibited substances that would be conclusive evidence of a violation. The drugs proposed for inclusion in §61.47(q) are those covered by the World Anti-Doping Agency 2010 Prohibited List.

So actually banning substances from use in combat sports is something they are proposing to do in the future once they get around to it. I guess I wasted a lot of the night discussing this when as it turns out pretty much everything is legal in Texas MMA currently.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

It does get into the basics of MMA regulations though. I haven’t compared that to the unified rules yet but they may reference them.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

The Unified Rules have some oddities as well.

by HarmlessNinja on Aug 23, 2010 1:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

I believe:

The Texas AC will do whatever they think will get them the least amount of trouble.

International, and national, combat sport promotions will have to go above and beyond the state laws when executing their own events. The states will leave too much gray area to run any MMA business.

by Rufford on Aug 23, 2010 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

And.,..
’ve participated in more court cases than you have I’m willing to bet, and one thing you’ll find in legal documents is that unless things are spelled out in either the affirmative or otherwise they occupy the legal grey area that is subject to argument until you’re blue in the face.

It’s logic like this that shows me Shakespeare was right.

Now you’ll post how that quote is always taken out of context.

"I got a good Christian raising and a 8th grade education / Ain't no need in y'all in treating me this way." - Billy Joe Shaver

by duck on Aug 23, 2010 7:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Are you going to try to say that oxygen is an unapproved substance, if so every fighter on the card has some explaining to do since they were all sucking wind at one point or another

You realize that the air we breathe and pure O2 are not the same thing right?

Air is only about 20% O2. The rest is 79% nitrogen and about 1% other miscellaneous gasses. Breathing pure O2 is a different thing entirely.

by Steve4192 on Aug 23, 2010 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

A story and something they should never allow

But not a condemnation of the abilities/character of Noons or Lawal. I’d be 100x more upset if they were doing this between rounds when they were actually winded and short on oxygen—-without any medical evidence or training, I doubt taking one breath of pure oxygen at least a minute or two before a fight actually does anything and that’s my only point. It is by definition cheating yes, but it’s only in principle not in actual effect, so it’s not moving my meter here.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Aug 22, 2010 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you know they didn’t use it between rounds too?

by who me on Aug 22, 2010 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh Jesus, it wasn’t even used between rounds? Then no, this is absolutely not illegal. What the fuck is all the hullaboo about? It’s a perfectly legal training aid. The rules Subo keeps quoting technically prohibits a fighter from drinking Gatorade between rounds but they can certainly drink it before stepping in the cage.

by Chromium on Aug 23, 2010 3:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Actually

“electrolytes” are one of the specific things allowed between rounds. Try again.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 23, 2010 3:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

(4) Only water and electrolytes shall be permitted for hydration of a contestant between rounds. Honey, glucose, or sugar, or any other substance may not be mixed with the water.

Gatorade also has sugar in it (as well as several other things that are neither electrolytes nor water, but that’s beside the point). It is specifically prohibited. Try again. And damn, I usually agree with you on things.

by Chromium on Aug 23, 2010 3:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

hahaaa

it’s bad enough to be mistaken but to go out of your way to correct somebody just so you can look smart (you know saying things like ‘fail’ ‘try again’)… and getting called out on it…
now that’s golden

by fuzzy wuzzy on Aug 23, 2010 5:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh Jesus, it wasn’t even used between rounds?

Do you know that it wasn’t?

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

No, I don’t, but that’s what the original story appears to be saying upon re-reading it. If it was used between rounds then it comes down to legal interpretation of the rules of the Texas State Athletic Commission, which are less than crystal clear (just because something isn’t specifically listed as an approved device doesn’t make it prohibited, otherwise people couldn’t bring things like medical scissors for cutting tape or razors for cutting swells beneath the eye that might block vision; the “substance” of oxygen certainly isn’t in question, just the device and its delivery method).

However, if it wasn’t used between rounds this isn’t even a story.

by Chromium on Aug 23, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Indeed. This is faaaar more damning than Greasegate. (which I always thought was overblown, but GSP makes me question my sexuality, so…..)

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Did they use it between rounds too? It was there for them why wouldn’t they?

As for the NFL comparisons will people please stop that shit, they can(and do) pump NFL players full of pain killers during the games, it’s a completely different sport than fighting and the same rules don’t apply for a reason.

by who me on Aug 22, 2010 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

 I am not surprised the Texas commission missed this. In my opinion the Texas commission is completely incompetent! They do zero drug testing! Are you kidding me! I am sure that absurd commission will license Margarito next.

by MMAfan4242 on Aug 22, 2010 7:36 PM EDT reply actions  

One wonders what else they (the commission) missed…

You don't like wrestling in MMA? Go watch K-1.

by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Aug 22, 2010 7:38 PM EDT reply actions  

I was looking through the Texas Athletic Commision's rule book...

And I didn’t find anything about supplements being prohibited from being used in the ring. I’m sure there is a list somewhere though.

I did find something interesting….it’s legal for a fighter to grab the ropes once per round.

GSP is an alien sent here to humiliate our men and mate with our women

by MMA_Messiah on Aug 22, 2010 7:40 PM EDT reply actions  

Oh, and the second time they grab the ropes?….it’s considered a submission!

GSP is an alien sent here to humiliate our men and mate with our women

by MMA_Messiah on Aug 22, 2010 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's stupid

it’s the only legitimate way to defend against the Sharpshooter or the Boston Crab.

by B Money on Aug 22, 2010 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

BE is ridiculous

You run this shit story without any proof that those cans are illegal.

Just for the clicks right?

by KOQ24 on Aug 22, 2010 7:50 PM EDT reply actions  

And name the last time you saw them in a televised card

And are they on the list of sanctioned items a corner man can carry?

"I got a good Christian raising and a 8th grade education / Ain't no need in y'all in treating me this way." - Billy Joe Shaver

by duck on Aug 22, 2010 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

If it’s not on the illegal substances list of the commission it’s fair game.

by KOQ24 on Aug 22, 2010 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's insane

Please stop trying to derail my college career with your terrible, terrible logic.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let's try this again

(1) Approved supplies are …

(3) The use of an unapproved substance may result in disciplinary action.

"I got a good Christian raising and a 8th grade education / Ain't no need in y'all in treating me this way." - Billy Joe Shaver

by duck on Aug 22, 2010 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

The use of an unapproved substance may result in disciplinary action.
Approved supplies are ice, which must be in an ice bag or Department approved container, water, cotton swabs, gauze pads, clean towels, Adrenalin 1:10,000, Avitene, Thromblin, petroleum jelly or other surgical lubricant, medical diachylon tape, Enswel, and electrolytes.

If you can read those two things and say it’s fair game…um…

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Brent, you are assuming that people can read. That apparantly is a bridge too far.

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by Brian Mayes on Aug 22, 2010 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

There isn’t a list of illegal substances, only a list of substances/supplies that are approved – with a clause that flat-out makes everything else illegal.

You don't like wrestling in MMA? Go watch K-1.

by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Aug 23, 2010 2:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Since the substance in question is oxygen, it kinda has to be on the approved list—- since all the fighters would be dead in the first round without it. And that’s probably what some commissioner thought when he approved it.

"an excellent example of why most MMA "journalism" is a joke. Pseudonyms like "toxic" and shitty writing like that dopey article"--- Joe Rogan.

by toxic on Aug 23, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Breathable air and pure oxygen are two very different things. The FDA actually does classify pure oxygen as a drug.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

The argument I would make is that the approved supply list doesn’t say “and anything not on the approved list is unapproved”, and that being on the list only guarantees approval. If its not on that list, and its not on the unapproved list, you need to ask the commission.

Here’s what I think—- I think somehow or another some of the fighters figured out the Commission didn’t realized oxygen cans are generally considered cheating, and the commission didn’t have a problem with them being used if the fighters asked to use one. They proceeded to take advantage of the commissions ignorance.

So, in a technical sense, I don’t think they cheated (it would be very very stupid to cheat so obviously on live TV in front of X thousand people). I think they exploited an incompetent commission.

"an excellent example of why most MMA "journalism" is a joke. Pseudonyms like "toxic" and shitty writing like that dopey article"--- Joe Rogan.

by toxic on Aug 23, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well...

You clicked on it… Just sayin’

by Henrique on Aug 22, 2010 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade

by Damon O. on Aug 22, 2010 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can a brother get a SUBJECT LINE?

"I got a good Christian raising and a 8th grade education / Ain't no need in y'all in treating me this way." - Billy Joe Shaver

by duck on Aug 22, 2010 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

YOU SUBJECT LINE!

My avatar has Bas Rutten and Terry Funk in it...therefore it's the manliest avatar on SB Nation.

by RobertGBP on Aug 22, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

The fact that people in the comments section don’t have reading and comprehension skills suprises you?

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by Brian Mayes on Aug 22, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

This place used to be different.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

People have always been stupid. You’re just starting to notice it more.

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by Brian Mayes on Aug 22, 2010 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Popularity is a bitch.

by Rufford on Aug 23, 2010 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, but then we let that subo guy back in.

Bolts from the Blue // "Sometimes you would get the sense that people felt bigger than the team," Gates said. "Not to say it was an issue, but we know it’s not an issue for sure now."
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by Richard Wade on Aug 23, 2010 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

My exile allowed a… festering of sorts. I’m only one man. I can’t exterminate it myself.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 23, 2010 2:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Great argument. I’m convinced.

by jhf884 on Aug 22, 2010 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes it is.

And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
Twitter me and what not.

by James Brady on Aug 23, 2010 3:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

There is nothing in that regulation that says everything not on the list of approved substances is illegal. You have to read laws for what they say, not what you want them to say or what logical leaps you can make based on what you’ve read.

by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 23, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

No, not legal and illegal are two different things?

Shakespeare was right, man…

"I got a good Christian raising and a 8th grade education / Ain't no need in y'all in treating me this way." - Billy Joe Shaver

by duck on Aug 23, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Do you know how to read?

honestly?

"To resist is to piss in the wind......"

by Hell_Bent on Aug 23, 2010 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

is was directed toward

the idiot who said BE is running this story without any proof that the cans are illegal

"To resist is to piss in the wind......"

by Hell_Bent on Aug 23, 2010 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

The commission could theoretically take action. The question is whether or not use of oxygen before the fight starts within the technical zone can be ruled as a loophole. It may have specifically come up in the fighter meetings prior to the event – Strikeforce’s people should probably know the answer to that, though they could just as easily say “ask the commission”.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 7:57 PM EDT reply actions  

It has to be mentioned that there is conflicting research as to the effectiveness of oxygen supplementation. A lot research shows that it may just have a placebo effect. The NFL has allowed the usage of pure oxygen tanks on NFL sidelines for years, which points to it not having a performance boosting effect.

by KAN0 on Aug 22, 2010 8:16 PM EDT reply actions  

Getting a BJ on the sidelines may or may not help your performance as well. But if it’s against the rules, it’s against the rules. Oxygen is not allowed by the commision, and as such has no place being in that cage. If they let oxygen be there when it was against the rules, what else would they allow?

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by Brian Mayes on Aug 22, 2010 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Like I said – we haven’t heard yet from the athletic commission. Did the director on site decide to make the call that compressed oxygen was OK in the ring so long as they were dispensed prior to the opening bell? We aren’t sure because this is up a day before anyone is going to get a response.

I have little faith in the TX commission, but this seems a bit blatant to miss, and they’d have a hard time disregarding it if a fighter made a complaint.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree, if it is illegal it is illegal and rule breaking should not be tolerated. I am just stating that KJ and Mo more than likely did not gain an advantage through their rule breaking.

by KAN0 on Aug 22, 2010 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Having a bowie knife strapped on their sides during their fight wouldn’t have given them an advantage either. It nonetheless would have been illegal and shouldn’t have been allowed.

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by Brian Mayes on Aug 22, 2010 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

The funny part, to me...

is that Oxygen is a problem because of the endurance gains it give, yet MO seemed pretty gassed by the third round.

I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.

by Razreshat on Aug 22, 2010 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, having his wrestling game completley shut down and getting punched and kneeed in the face multiple times certainly didn’t help matters.

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by Brian Mayes on Aug 22, 2010 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not to mention constantly going for HUGE takedowns over more economical double legs.

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MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

He practically power-bombed Feijao in the 1st and that is a lot of mass to be picking up that powerfully.

by KAN0 on Aug 22, 2010 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

I think the issue with Mo in the 3rd was that he got hurt not gassed.

by KAN0 on Aug 22, 2010 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

that Oxygen is a problem because of the endurance gains it gives

disagree esp if it’s b/f the fight

by fuzzy wuzzy on Aug 23, 2010 2:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

And based on long term effects...

of how the NFL takes care of its players, I’d say it isn’t a standard that should be emulated.

I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.

by Razreshat on Aug 22, 2010 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

My point was to simply illustrate that there is more than likely no boost in performance gained by using oxygen supplementation; painkillers are a different story. I wasn’t trying to make a tick-for-tack comparison between the NFL and MMA, just illustrating a point on the ineffectiveness of oxygen supplementation.

by KAN0 on Aug 23, 2010 7:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

use in the nfl does not prove that point.

by Phildo on Aug 23, 2010 7:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

So you think the NFL is okay with erogenic aids that have clear performance boosting effects? Keep in my that the ‘painkiller argument’ is a totally different argument being that they don’t make you run faster, jump higher, or give you more endurance.

by KAN0 on Aug 23, 2010 8:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t know enough about the thing, but cross sport comparisons are useless because different sports with different sanctioning bodies have different rules.

For another NFL/combat sports example, the NFL has had gatorade on the bench for years, gatorade was not allowed inside a ring or cage until very recently, if it isn’t still banned in some places.

Are they all the same level of performance enhancement? no, but the nfl has different banned substance rules than combat sports. Some of the things on that list are performance enhancing, and some of them aren’t.

Also, I’m not really sure how you can argue that pain killers don’t help you run faster, jump higher, or give you more endurance.

by Phildo on Aug 23, 2010 8:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Are painkillers effective at masking pain? Of course, but they are not going to increase your 40 time, that was my point.

I understand that different sports have different rules and premises but all high-level sports that I am aware of strictly prohibit the usage of aids that are going to give a competitor an edge over another competitor. By me using the argument that the NFL allows the use of oxygen supplementation, I am simply trying to convey that the NFL has deemed it ineffective in a performance boosting sense. It doesn’t really matter what two sports I am comparing. Unless you have an oxygen tank strapped to your back, there is no performance edge gained by the usage of supplemental oxygen.

by KAN0 on Aug 23, 2010 8:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

The NFL has not deemed it ineffective in performance enhancing, they just allow it.

Everyone knows that steroids and amphetamines effect performance, yet MLB ignored them until very recently. The NFL allows people to wear casts, that effects their ability to perform.

by Phildo on Aug 23, 2010 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

The NFL hasn’t deemed it anything they just don’t care. Do you actually have a medical study done by the NFL that says this has no effect on athletes or are you just assuming they think that because it’s out there? Do you have a medical study that says this has no effect in combat sports?

Look it’s different sports with different goals and focuses, what is allowed or disallowed in ball sports is meaningless when talking about combat sports. The NFL allows players to go on the field in a state that wouldn’t even allow them to be licensed as a professional fighter more/less actually fight, what they allow is specific to the sport they are playing not sports in general.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 8:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hmmmm, so what you are saying is that the NFL is unconcerned with practices that may give players a performance advantage? Wow, that’s interesting; I bet people placing money on NFL games would be interested in knowing that the NFL doesn’t care about players using performance enhancers. Don’t you think the fact that certain players are receiving performance boosters will effect the outcome of the game, thus effecting the “swing” of millions of dollars?

Do you really want me to dig up the evidence as to the ineffectiveness of supplemental oxygen? I’ll do it, it’s out there. Man, your parents must have had a hell of a time trying to convince you that Santa Claus isn’t real.

by KAN0 on Aug 23, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

do you realize how heavy a typical O2 tank is?
Unless you have an oxygen tank strapped to your back, there is no performance edge gained by the usage of supplemental oxygen.

by fuzzy wuzzy on Aug 23, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly, so what’s the point

by KAN0 on Aug 23, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

“The NFL has allowed the usage of pure oxygen tanks on NFL sidelines for years, which points to it not having a performance boosting effect.”

Do hospitals use O2 as a placebo?

by Dropkick434 on Aug 22, 2010 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have once...

at the gym. It felt like I recovered quicker and had some more cardio than normal. But it’s hard to say if I was just having a good day or if it actually helped. That single use doesn’t really give me enough insight to determine the effectiveness personally.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Being a profession diver, i have used pure oxygen plenty, its amazing and great for hangovers.

It can also leed to oxygen poisioning…

by Beren on Aug 22, 2010 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Being a profession diver…

i’ll take your word for it but it is a different scenario than somebody breathing it and going to fight 5min later

by fuzzy wuzzy on Aug 23, 2010 2:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

To Brett, subo and co.

When something goes wrong with Strikeforce; lots of the time people say; its not their fualt; its the AC. At which point does Strikeforce need to take responsibility for their product and to ensure that a) the people doing their undercards are doing the right thing. B) the AC in what ever place they are doing a show is correctly handling drug testing, paper work and reffing. C) the fighters and hangers on are not going to start a brawl…?

I can not for one second beliave that the UFC would allow anyone to mark their name like strikeforce have on a consistant basis. They would be working with everyone to make sure things that happen to strikeforce didnt happen to them.

by Beren on Aug 22, 2010 8:28 PM EDT reply actions  

Did Strikeforce do ANYTHING right last night?

I’m going to lean towards no.

by DirtyML on Aug 22, 2010 8:30 PM EDT reply actions  

I'd say they matchmade quite well...

on paper things looked pretty damn good.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I bet they wish they could take back the Griggs booking.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

In a cruel twist of irony that was the one fight I kept saying was shitty matchmaking on their part. And it turned out to be…just for the wrong reason.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Awesome liveblog, by the way – TKO (Retirement) will live on

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

They actually two undercard fights viewable

Albeit on the internet, but at the stream worked (for me at least)

by capital L on Aug 22, 2010 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

^MADE two

I am apparently unable to type anymore.

by capital L on Aug 22, 2010 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

The intro video was pretty good. There were a few points where shamrock and mauro were actually useful, which is a big improvement from the past. The fights were good when the refs and commissions weren’t screwing up.

by Phildo on Aug 22, 2010 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

My question is this – do Noons and Mo share cornermen or train with the same team or anything? I find it really odd that we’ve never seen these things ONCE before, but 2 fighters are using them on the same card? Like Brent says, I’d be interested in hearing from the commission before I start vilifying anyone in regards to this.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Aug 22, 2010 8:31 PM EDT reply actions  

I agree...

how on earth do these things pop up simultaneously if they’re banned?

Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin

by Snatchl on Aug 22, 2010 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

is that illegal in Houston? I ask this because they weren’t even hiding it and there was more than one person doing it. If they wanted to hide it don’t you think they would do it before coming out? I wouldn’t be surprised if the rules in Houston were completely different

"You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity."

by fr8nk the tank on Aug 22, 2010 9:28 PM EDT reply actions  

To say a few things.

1) Calling this a Strikeforce “scandal” is idiocy. They put on an event where people cheated, but no one calls Antonio Margarito’s far, far more serious infraction an HBO (or whoever put that fight on) scandal.

2)Realistically, I’m not really willing to throw anybody under the bus on this one. We’re assuming that this was a malicious act. For all we know, these rules may only be selectively enforced across multiple athletic commissions, and especially when dealing with a paper tiger athletic commision like the TSAC may have allowed some camps into thinking it wasn’t that big a deal. A rule can be written down the same way in multiple places and be treated different ways in different places. I sure as hell don’t stop at crosswalks in Montreal (nobody does), but that doesn’t make it legal.

3) If two people are doing it, the odds are more people are as well.

4) Lastly, and this is a little contradictory, but knowing all this, if they broke the rules then they can justly be punished for it. They were taking a risk, and seem to have gotten caught. All I;m saying is that it might have been a very understandable decision, and there’s no sense in getting moralistic about it before you know the context or facts. Getting pissed off prematurely isn’t a good thing…

by TLow on Aug 22, 2010 9:33 PM EDT reply actions  

Antonio Margarito’s far, far more serious infraction an HBO (or whoever put that fight on) scandal.

Are you kidding me? THat was a HUGE scandal in the sport of boxing.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, kind of why California just told him to fuck off.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

He’s not denying that it’s a scandal. He’s saying that the promoter (HBO or whomever) isn’t taking the heat for it because it doesn’t make sense to blame the promoter. Just like it doesn’t make sense to blame Strikeforce here.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Aug 22, 2010 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ah...

I didn’t read it that way. But okay, that makes sense. A lot of that comes to HBO immediately shitting all over Margarito and his people when it was happening while Strikeforce takes a while in every situation to craft a response. Now. I’m not blaming Strikeforce, I’m just saying that may play into things.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 22, 2010 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

So, has anyone read the full text of the Combat Sports Administrative Rules? Beyond just the imagined applicable rule? There’s a clause in there that’s kinda important.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 9:47 PM EDT reply actions  

Share?

Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

by FRANKIE on Aug 22, 2010 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not giving away my lazy footwork that easily. Mind you, it took 5 minutes for it to find and it was in an incredibly obvious section to check on if you wanted to see if there were clauses in their administrative rules to allow exceptions to be made, but I won’t say more than that. I’ll let someone else dredge it up for me.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can everyone...

Who is basically name-calling, and acting like a jerk in regards to pointing out that the TSAC rules don’t specifically say they everything not on the approved list is automatically unapproved please take a step back and understand that you’re not reading a wikipedia entry, but what amounts to a legal document.

I think everyone understands that there is a list of approved supplies in the TSAC rules, and it also says that unapproved items can be met with penalty, but no where does it say that anything not found on the approved list is automatically on the unapproved list.

I’m not trying to stir up a hornets nest here, but legal logic and everyday logic are often two completely different things. Just because people are pointing that out doesn’t make them ignorant any more than someone thinking it’s fairly straightforward despite it being a legal document makes them ignorant.

Just to give a quick example. The TSAC could have easily said before the fight that it was approved which would make it completely acceptable by the regulations, even if it wasn’t on the approved list found in the TSAC rules. There is also the possible argument that oxygen is an approved substance by virtue of its necessity in continuing to live via inhalation, and since it’s pure oxygen it’s not contaminated by a foreign substance, as well as being in a properly labeled manufacture container.

It’s just not as open and shut as some of you are making it out to be, at least not at this point in time.

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by Jacob Hayes on Aug 22, 2010 9:58 PM EDT reply actions  

Disagree. There’s no “basket clause” in the statute allowing TSAC to approve items on a whim before a fight, as mentioned by Brookhouse above.

Approved items are defined, and, as far as the statute that has been quoted, there is no leeway apparent for TSAC to say “oh, and these are okay as well.” Maybe they said that, but there’s no statutory basis for it, from what has come to light so far.

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

There isn’t one? You better actually look at the regulations instead of taking people’s word regarding them.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Look below – even if the AC has the authority to add to the allowed supplies list, all of my questions remained unanswered. This is a story.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

There is no story. Dudes sucking in oxygen is not a story. The rest of your questions won’t be answered until tomorrow, at which point there may be a story. Until then, there’s only empty speculation and the terms of the TSAC’s administrative rules.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

“from what has come to light so far.”

I’m not sure of the entirety of the TSAC regulations. As I said, I’m going off of the section that has been quoted. BASED ON THAT SECTION, there is no reason to think that TSAC has the statutory authority to authorize other supplies ringside on a whim.

If I really feel motivated, maybe I’ll read the whole gawdamn TSAC charter tomorrow. But from what we know so far, they don’t have any legal statutory basis for allowing the inhalors.

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

All anyone has done is go to their website, pull up the regulations (which are publically available to anyone) and look up one subsection specific to the items a second can bring in the ring. Which is fine, mind you. But it doesn’t require hours of hard research to do – just Google and Ctrl-F. The same goes with the other specific clauses about how rules and regs are administered at events, which apparently no one has decided to look at.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great. Isn’t that what has been done already? On middleeasy, and here? Have you SEEN what Suboticki has posted here? Just checking…

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have. None of them, I repeat, NONE OF THEM bothered to look where they should have. In any case, you’ll get deflection that it doesn’t matter – you already have.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

So far, they have the evidence. You don’t. I generally don’t read statutes unless I’m getting paid for it. Feel free to find something in there that contradicts the analysis so far though. I’ll give you fair kudos if you do.

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, since they apparently can’t be bothered, here you go. 61.30, entitled “Responsibility and Authority of the Executive Director” -

(a) The Executive Director, or his designee, has complete authority over all phases of an event, including, but not limited to the weigh-in, matching of contestants, entrance to the forum, passes to the technical zone, audit of ticket sales, and payment of purses.

(b) For all professional contests, the Executive Director will assign the timekeepers, referees, ringside physicians and judges.

…cutting to the chase….

(k) The Executive Director may waive the application of a rule to an event if he determines that such waiver will not negatively affect the safety of any contestant and that the spirit of the Code and these rules is served by such waiver. The waiver must be in writing or later confirmed in writing.

Long and the short of it is that he can choose to waive the application of any rule (i.e. application of rules regarding unapproved items such as oxygen brought in by a second into the technical zone) so long as he offers at the very least confirmation in writing after the event.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then the confirmation would be a story

As would his reasoning behind it.

There literally isn’t a scenario that doesn’t make “this isn’t a story” wrong.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is it a story with legs? Maybe. But doing something like I suggested would look a bit more professional. Who here can really say that they know with absolute certainty how rules are applied in club shows at Indian casinos that fall under the ABC or in states with notoriously weak commissions like those in the midwest? Man, they allow shoes in Missouri for pro MMA bouts and its 2010.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is your big deal that you have been going on about? Seriously? For an executive director to waive a rule like that he would have to insure that it didn’t negatively affect the safety of a contestant and was still in the spirit of the rules, for this I would assume that would at least mean that it would have to be run through the medical advisory committee and that would of been a significant process. Man the way you were going on I thought you actually had something that actually meant something.

by who me on Aug 22, 2010 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

The ED didn’t have to do any of that. He or his representative has sole authority in those cases based on the power vested in him by the state. If he/she decided that use of supplementary canned oxygen prior to the beginning of the fight was OK right up until ring introductions, its done. Period. End of story.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Beginning of story

Because then you get into why they did it, why only two fighters took advantage of it, whether they should have and whether other states should/will, whether it’s permanent or temporary… story story story.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you want to make something legible out of this, yes, you would actually go on to write an actual article detailing the decision behind approving it or how it slipped by. In either case, you could then further go onto discuss whether or not its ever been approved elsewhere or discussed by other commissions or even at an ABC joint session. You could ask fighters if it was made clear that it was permissible and that those on the card without bottles were unable to acquire them in the short window of time prior to them competing.

Those are all things that would be good to do. This is none of them.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think coming to Bloody Elbow and arguing that speculation is stupid is a non-starter. There are a lot of “what-ifs” to unpack here.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

The fact that many of them are unpacked without anyone bothering to look at the actual regulations is sorta mindblowing. It took hours to get to the point where anyone opened the website and looked to see what powers the EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR has over an event.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

and green

also if somebody made an executive decision to allow pure O2, they probably should have let people (or at least the fighters) know

by fuzzy wuzzy on Aug 23, 2010 2:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wait are you upset about the article or the comments section? Because if you are getting worked up about the comments section you need to just log off and go get a beer and chill out. Its the fucking comments section.

by who me on Aug 22, 2010 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Am I upset? No. Amused? Yes.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

You are entertaining me tonight :D

by who me on Aug 22, 2010 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

will not negatively affect the safety of any contestant

They have to show it won’t harm any contestant in any way. That means they would have to know exactly what was in the cans and exactly what research showed the effects would be, most likely they would need that as a medical opinion from the medical advisory board.

the spirit of the Code and these rules is served by such waiver

They have to show that it follows the spirit of the code and allowing a potentially unfair advantage to be had by certain fighters most definitely doesn’t follow the spirit of the code. To show that it didn’t give any kind of advantage they would most likely need a medical opinion from the medical advisory board.

They don’t just have “sole authority” to just change things. Those are some pretty big hurdles that are written in for them to jump over before they can waive a regulation. They aren’t just out there willy nilly changing the rules as they go, at least they shouldn’t be.

by who me on Aug 22, 2010 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I’m not a lawyer but I do work for the government interpreting legal code on a daily basis. This just isn’t as cut and dried as it is being presented, of course this is Texas too……

by who me on Aug 22, 2010 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wait a minute...

the government has people who are not lawyers (whose job is to know the law), interpreting the law?

That’s like letting people like Subo and Black Lesnar write actual articles.

(it’s jokes, people)

BOOSH

by Farthammer on Aug 23, 2010 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Lawyers are over-rated :D

The people you want interpreting regulations are people who are experts in that field not people who are experts at law. I am an expert in occupational safety and industrial hygiene. The lawyers at work have the job of making sure a case stands up in court legally but they don’t decide who to cite for a violation of the regulations or why.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

It might be...

Do you work with chicken eggs?

I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.

by Razreshat on Aug 23, 2010 3:57 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Depends on where you work and what you do. Of course Industrial Hygiene is very different than your lack of personal hygiene unless you have a smokestack or industrial ventilation in your body. Do you have a industrial smokestack on your back?

;D

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

omg i love you... can't stop laughing
Do you have a industrial smokestack on your back?

by fuzzy wuzzy on Aug 23, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

He’s my arch-nemesis (according to him). I can’t help but post funny replies and most of the time neither can he.

:D

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

He’s my arch-nemesis (according to him)

My arch-nemesis would be vain.

by John Nash on Aug 23, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

The executive director absolutely has final and total authority. Its right there in black and white. It is based on his/her determinations, not that of a panel who answers to him. See also, subsection A.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

He has to make his determinations based on the criteria laid out in the regulation (which is also right there in black and white). He doesn’t just get to make rules as he sees fit, he has to justify his decisions based on the written criteria. Medical safety and spirit of the rules are significant hurdles placed in there for him to cross before he makes a decision like that. Yes he has final authority but that doesn’t mean he can ignore the written criteria in the regulation in making his decision.

by who me on Aug 22, 2010 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Determinations based on the spirit of the rules as interpreted by a figure with absolute authority is a wide enough hole a truck can be driven through. He doesn’t have to provide any proof whatsoever that he conversed with a single medical professional prior to making the decision.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, but he does have to provide something in writing (the release of which will provide something of a story)

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which is fine, BTW. But he could write anything. He doesn’t even have to justify it – he’s the final authority!

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

He’s not the “final authority”, he has his bosses too and his decisions can be challenged.

by who me on Aug 22, 2010 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

The boss of the executive director is the Governor of Texas, who has no power to overturn decisions made during a fight event.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

But can fire him from his job if he does something that becomes an issue. Which do you think is more important to the executive director?

by who me on Aug 22, 2010 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Its the executive director’s discretion then to do things he imagines won’t get him canned. Allowing brass knuckle fights probably would. Allowing oxygen prior to a bout? Probably not as likely to fire him as the decision to OK Margarito or Edwin Valero to box in his state.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

You are reading a heck of a lot into this that just isn’t there and are crossing between two(or more) different regulations here.

He only has complete authority over the phases of an event not the rules of a event given in (a). He also was only given the power in (k) to waive a rule for an event not to make his own regulations or change the regulations in any way.

by who me on Aug 22, 2010 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Basically, your sole option is to file a request for review with the district court. Chances of success there are pretty much nil. If you want to argue that its a theoretical angle one could take even if it has little or no odds of success, feel free to do so.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

How do you know what the chances of success would be? If the ED didn’t back up his decision with actual medical information then chances are his decision is the one that would get bounced. He has to meet the requirements of the regulation or his decision won’t stand and he has to prove he met those requirements if anyone questions them.

by who me on Aug 22, 2010 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

The regulation is set by himself and up to his discretion. The chances that a district court is going to rule against him/her is extremely small, particularly given the legal wording of the law. These appeals never get very far even in major commission states.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

The regulations are set by the state legslative branch, his judgement is to wave a regulation not to change one or write a new one. He doesn’t have the power to make or change rules all that is written there is that he has the power to wave the application of a specific rule at a specific event provided he meets the given criteria. If he waves a rule and can’t meet the criteria then he would be toast in court because the regulation is still in place, he has to justify why he didn’t enforce it at that time. The burden of proof in this case is on him.

by who me on Aug 22, 2010 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

As the figure of authority appointed by the state, what odds do you really think that a court who does not specialize in the function of determining rules for combative sports is going to reject the ruling from the official governing state licensing? I give odds of maybe 2%. And that is why it won’t ever go to court, even if the media deems the explanation to be unsatisfactory.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 23, 2010 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

He isn’t determining a rule, he doesn’t have that power, the ED’s power as written is to waive a rule for a specific event. A court may not be an expert on combative sports but they will know to call one in for something like this and it would be on the ED to explain why he waived a regulation.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

The court doesn’t have to call any such person. Its purely optional. The odds of that happening are slim and none. I mean, hell, what are you going to argue if you’re demanding review? Are you going to argue against the health benefits of oxygen?

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 23, 2010 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

If it’s use by one fighter gives him an advantage in any way over another fighter who doesn’t use it then it’s a slam dunk case or it not meeting the spirit of the rules and also could be pointed out that an unfair advantage by one fighter could create undue medical harm to the other through that unfair advantage. It wouldn’t be hard to shoot holes in a ED’s decision unless he actually backed it up with medical information.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

What medical information is there that would establish that a fighter received an advantage by using a limited supply of oxygen just prior to a fight? Its a heckuva uphill battle if Gurgel went after it given the fact that 50% of the guys taped using it lost that night.

There’s no way this goes anywhere.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 23, 2010 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ho-lee shit

I advocate everyone stop responding at this point.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 23, 2010 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

How much as it used and at what times? Do we know that it was only given prior to the fight? Do we know what the medical information on the product says? Do we even know who else did or didn’t use it? Do we even know if the athletic commission was even aware of it?(they do seem to be a mess in Texas) You are assuming a heck of a lot very early into this situation.

As far as how it would work in court that is always tricky but as the regulations are written burden of proof appears to fall on the ED who waved the rule not someone who disagreed with him waving it. The rule was in place for a reason, the ED is the one who decided to allow it to be broken for the event.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is all with the assumption that the commission was aware – if they were not, then obviously none of this applies. The odds that it was repeatedly used in the open by fighters in the technical zone means to me that the odds are very low that they were unaware it was going to happen. The very fact that we don’t even know exactly how many people used it is one of the primary problems here. Do you know for certain Jorge Gurgel didn’t have a bottle of his own that he used when the camera wasn’t focused on him?

The regulations show that an appeal or review process goes to the district court, at which point what level of review that needs to be furnished will be determined. The ED is the state expert in this case and it is thus very unlikely that a judge would determine that he/she himself is better capable of determining the spirit of the rules than the commission itself.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 23, 2010 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

It’s all assumption and it’s all personal entertainment in the comments section at this point. Who knows if they were aware or not, just because it was there doesn’t mean that a dumb ass wasn’t in charge that night or someone just missed it or didn’t know what it was. We are still at the point of 100% speculation about pretty much every aspect of this issue.

The regulations show an appeal of a ED decision going to the district court but that isn’t the only thing in play when it comes to AC’s it’s just the written legal right to take them to court. There is no actual “athletic commission”, it all falls under the department of licensing and regulation and they have a lot more regulations that control how they function overall that could come into play (and who knows who they sent to this event).

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

The assumption we were both wrong about was that the ED actually could do anything about it even if he wanted to. After further review there is no banned substance list or drug testing in Texas currently, everything except being drunk or stoned during a fight is legal in Texas. That is one “authority” the ED doesn’t have yet. Texas really is a mess.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

He has to justify his decision in writing and if something does come up from this (such as the media getting ahold of it and asking questions) he has to provide his reasoning. If he allowed a substance to be used without showing that he officially determined it was medically safe and provided no advantage to one fighter over another then his ass would be on the line. Most government officials understand that. The fact that the “spirit of the rules” quote allows such levity is also a hinderance because it allows for people to bring all sorts of stuff against him if they dissagree.

Here let me give you and example I work with on a regular basis. In OSHA there is a general duty clause which is basically a clause that allows an OSHA inspector to site anything they see as a hazard even if it’s not listed in the regulations. It’s a catch all with such a wide stance that darn near everything could be a potential violation, the catch is that it is almost impossible to actually site unless you document the heck out of every little detail, the burden of proof is actually much much higher. Vague statements in regulations are actually a pain in the ass.

by who me on Aug 22, 2010 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

You keep saying that he needs to justify it. He doesn’t. He just needs to fill out paperwork stating that he personally feels that the use of oxygen did not endanger fighters and was within the spirit of the regulations when he decided not to prevent its use prior to fights. No one can do anything from that point on because the decision is made. There’s not even a time frame in which its specifically stated how long he has before he needs to produce it other than “later”.

In essence, whatever the athletic commission executive director or their assigned agent decides is law. The only recourse is to go to the governor’s office and request they punt them from their position and install a new commissioner. Even then, nothing can be done retroactively. This is all with the assumption that the use was approved prior to the fights, which judging from the evidence that we’ve seen (plus the obvious possibility that others used oxygen and were simply not seen on camera with it) would point to the likelihood given the blatant nature of it that the commissioner and the various officials at ringside were likely aware and OKed it prior to the contest. Speculation? Perhaps. But more rational than what most of what’s been presented here has been.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Legally, maybe.

In the court of public (or even, enthusiast) opinion, let’s not kid ourselves here.

If enough pressure is put on the ED, if he did, in fact, do some wrondgoing, well….

Let it be a test for the MMA media’s influence and motivation.

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess I just think there is clearly grounds for investigating this, and am completely dumbfounded by the pushback against it that there seems to be.

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not pushing back against investigating it. I would like to actually SEE investigation first.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, we certainly have “reasonable grounds to believe”.

Clearly, we’re all anxious to see how this plays out.

Personally, I’d be jumping all over this, just to get a Clay Davis-esque “Sheeeeeeeiiiiiiiiiiiittttttt” when I served some papers. But that’s just me.

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry no you are just wrong. His word isn’t law and his decisions are not final and and they can be challenged. Heck that is written in the regulations.

Sec. 2052.304. Petition For Review.

(a) A person may seek review of a decision or an order of the executive director or the commission under this chapter by filing a petition for review in a district court in Travis County.

(b) Chapter 2001, Government Code, governs any proceeding under this section.

Sec. 2052.308. Appeal.

(a) The petitioner or executive director may appeal a final judgment of a court conducting a review under this subchapter in the same manner as a civil action.

(b) The executive director is not required to file an appeal bond

.

by who me on Aug 22, 2010 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Interesting that people are willing to look at the rules and regs now! LOL.

Like I said before, you can file for an appeal, which the director doesn’t even have to put any money up for. You’re doing so in a court that’s likely to favor the government body in a process that could take years. So while you theoretically could challenge it, it would only be after the fact, and any decision made would be well after the bout.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

“Interesting that people are willing to look at the rules and regs now! LOL.”

Oh, come on, friend. This doesn’t all happen instantaneously. Facts are moving pretty well for the twitter generation, I think.

As (almost) expected, there are the potential for loopholes on the issue. But we’ve clearly got enough rope to hang someone, if we all try hard enough. ;)

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I saw that when I was trying to figure out what you were looking at earlier. Hell I look at government regulations every damn day forgive me for not being all gung ho to dig thought them now for my own personal entertainment (and that is all any of the stuff in any of the comments sections are). I did read the dang things three times (Texas regulations tend to be pretty crappy anyway).

Heck I have a link to the Nevada regulations on my computer and regularly look up stuff on them, gee maybe I am the type that would read regulations for my own personal entertainment……..

by who me on Aug 22, 2010 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

In essence, whatever the athletic commission executive director or their assigned agent decides is law

you need to go back and re-read the regulation that you posted again and actually pay attention to what it says.

by who me on Aug 22, 2010 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

It is. There’s not even the mechanism for an injunction to prevent such a ruling from being used.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 23, 2010 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

You are reading it wrong. The ED is given authority over the phases of an event in (a), he isn’t given authority to make regulations or change them. Absolutely no “law making” ability is allowed or even implied in that regulation.

In (k) he is granted the power to waive a rule at a specific event if he meets the criteria provided. There is absolutely no “law making” ability in place in that regulation either. His decisions are not some kind of unassailable law of MMA he isn’t in any way granted power on that level by the regulatins quoted. He was granted to power to oversee the phases of an event and to waive a regulation for a specific event under certain set conditions and that is it. You are way overreading into what is in those regulations.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

He is allowed to waive any rule he chooses based on an extremely loose set of criteria specifically created to give him overwhelming power. They cannot be challenged until afterwards, at which point they’d be excessively difficult to defeat in a court of law, which of course is intended by the way the law is written.

You seem dead set on trying to prove that there is this easy path to beating the commission back on this if they had allowed it. There isn’t.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 23, 2010 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

You seem dead set into reading something that isn’t there into this regulation and giving an ED some kind of powers that just isn’t written into this. Those regulations while not that well written do specifically define what is and isn’t allowed and the criteria given while loose is criteria that presents a serious hurdle for an ED to clear in making those decisions. It wasn’t written the way you think it was written and it doesn’t say the things you seem to think it says.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

You've done well as always

But methinks you’re battling a lost cause here.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 23, 2010 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

The regulations are “not well written” because they do not say what you want them to. They are loose and seem to give the ED exceptional powers because they in fact do. Historically, how many occasions athletic commissions anywhere been challenged successfully in a court of law? I can’t think of one, and there is good reason for it.

There are no serious hurdles then for the director to clear. Any review at the level of the district court operates solely at the discretion of the judge, and the odds are very unlikely unless exceptional evidence is presented that he will overturn the ruling of a commissioner.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 23, 2010 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t want them to say anything, as I pointed out I interpret and enforce regulations for a living (I have two reports on my desk to write tomorrow). These are quite easy to follow and with the exception of “spirit of the code” they aren’t really that vague at all.

As far as it being challenged, who knows, we are just speculating for personal entertainment at this point. Hell we don’t even know if the ED was aware that they were being used. I can tell you that what you don’t see as a serious hurdle is actually a serious hurdle, it is written exactly what he has to show for his decision and the leeway given for challenging that if something bad ever did happen is scary bad for the ED who didn’t back his decisions up with lots and lots of real information.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

You can’t just tap dance around “spirit of the code” and pretend all the other words matter more. It is the determination of the spirit of the code by a person with absolute power over all phases (that means pre and post too) of an event. When you ask a court to review such a determination, you have to explain to them how it is that it doesn’t meet that standard, which is a very tough thing to prove.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 23, 2010 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Absolute power (complete authority and absolute powere aren’t the same thing) over phases has nothing to do with changing the regulations, I don’t know why you keep bringing that up or why you think it means anything at all to this? Just because the ED is the authority in charge of the phases doesn’t mean he has absolute power over the sport. You are reading a hell of a lot into that which just isn’t there and means very little to a discussion of regulation (k).

As far as tap dancing around “spirit of the code” hell that you can’t do that was my entire point. No one can just tap dance around that including the ED. I don’t understand why you think he can?

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

I got carried away having fun, unfortuantly I will now only have 4 hours sleep before work tomorrow.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 2:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

I love that you consider the troll the one guy who read the regulation and put more than 15 seconds of thought into his response.

by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 23, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Who me or the other guy? I’m the one who read the regulations a good dozen times last night (including the proposed amendments to it).

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

As I said below, thank you, and good catch. Nonetheless, given this basket clause, there’s a lot that would have to be proven by the exec director:

“if he determines that such waiver will not negatively affect the safety of any contestant and that the spirit of the Code and these rules is served by such waiver. The waiver must be in writing or later confirmed in writing.”

That’s a pretty hard and fast limitation to his authority. Hopefully, the media can pressure him to provide that reasoning and paper. And, as said, Subo’s further questions still very much apply.

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Will you just post what you are talking about instead of being so wishy washy about it? I have went through the texas regs twice and don’t see this smoking guy you seem to be all worked up over but refuse to present.

by who me on Aug 22, 2010 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm willing to bet

That just about every AC has a clause where they can change the rules before an event. That doesn’t answer
1) If they did
2) When they did it
3) Why they did it
4) Why they didn’t announce the change before the card
5) Whether every fighter was aware of the rule change

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 22, 2010 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not saying it isn't a story...

I’m saying you and others shouldn’t be basically calling people stupid for saying it may not be anything more than another example of why the TSAC is terrible. That’s not anywhere near the story that two of the name fighters from Strikeforce were both basically doping in plain sight.

Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com - Artist formerly known as Sklz711

by Jacob Hayes on Aug 22, 2010 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

The name calling and acting like a jerk is getting annoying, particularly people acting like this isn’t a real story. We may not know what TSAC says for a day or two but we do know that this is a real story that should be followed up on. Good grief even if TSAC ok’d it this is still a real story as it’s not something that other states have allowed to be used in combat sports.

by who me on Aug 22, 2010 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

There’s nothing wrong in questioning it. I’d suggest the following though -

A) waiting for a statement from the athletic commission

B) contacting other athletic commission (including nonmajor states, IE Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, Wisconsin, etc) to see what their stance is

C) contacting fighters from the card to see what was said in fighter meetings with the athletic commission

Instead, its a clusterfuck of people making proclamations in a billion different directions, all absolutely certain that they know what happened.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m looking at the texas regs and I don’t see what you are talking about but I will keep looking. Of course being as MMA uses unified rules all that is really needed is what the Unified rules state and whether Texas is deviating from that (which makes for another real issue here). Nevada or California or New Jersey are the big commissions in MMA and I would imagine that they would get back to a reporters question on how this would work under the unified rules. I have emailed Ohio with a question before and Bernie Profato emailed me back personally but it was a question about a Ohio event(seemed like a nice guy).

Any way you go this is something new in the sport and will be a real story that needs to be followed.

by who me on Aug 22, 2010 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

“here’s nothing wrong in questioning it. I’d suggest the following though -

A) waiting for a statement from the athletic commission"

That’s fine. But if you don’t create an unholy ruckus, the commission has no impetus to make a statement. Soooo, that’s what we’re doing now. ;)

“Instead, its a clusterfuck of people making proclamations in a billion different directions, all absolutely certain that they know what happened.”

Ehh, your above points are valid for journalists to do follow up on. It doesn’t really matter on the legal point though. If there’s nothing allowing TSAC to permit the devices ringside in their statute, they’re in shit no matter what happens in A) B) and C)

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 10:20 PM EDT reply actions  

Commissions reply to questions all the time, particularly from media. In the case they don’t answer? Well, say you contacted them multiple times and recieved no response regarding the matter.

As for the item about statutes -

http://www.license.state.tx.us/sports/sportsrules.htm

There’s the rules. Its black and white exactly where you would expect it to be.

by VirtualBalboa on Aug 22, 2010 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thank you.

Now, I’m five drinks deep, and just skimmed through the apparently irrelevant sections, but…..

what was your point again?

Because I saw NOTHING to contradict the prevailing analysis so far.

Since you seem so committed to being a contrarian, please tell me what you’ve found in that link which exonerates the corners of Noons and Lawal.

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

edit: saw your post further above re: the authority of the executive director. That is indeed compelling, and will require further investigation on the part of the MMA media. The interesting point of that part, I found, is:

" The waiver must be in writing or later confirmed in writing."

There you go. Either such a waiver exists, or it does not. Let’s see if we can get the Executive Director to produce it.

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

but, obviously, Subo’s follow up questions still apply.

by CstBoog on Aug 22, 2010 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Honestly

I think we all should be more concerned about the fact that this event had no drug testing to speak of. We all know that the guidelines and urinalysis that they do is pretty weak but for a professional level MMA event to go on with no testing is a damn shame.

As for the oxygen cans, I don’t care if they are approved or not. Our air has something like 65% less oxygen than 150 years ago, pro sports athletes using them makes sense and as long as they dont have corticosteroids (as some inhalers do) or other illicit substances, I say fuck it. Use em.

by destructivist on Aug 22, 2010 10:38 PM EDT reply actions  

The fact that there was no testing at all by either Strikeforce or Texas the fighters obviously knew before hand on both accounts of A) No Testing and B)The Oxygen being Illegal and both decided to just say FUCKIT and go with it as there be no repurcussions which just once again, shows at what length some Athletes will goto to get the upper hand/advantage…

How do you Know where Im at? If you dont Know where Ive been...Understand where Im coming from??

by Chiggs on Aug 23, 2010 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

sigh, you guys....
Our air has something like 65% less oxygen than 150 years ago

that would be some scary shit

as long as they dont have corticosteroids…I say fuck it. Use em.

really? so pray tell, are you worried more about the the buffallo hump or the moon faces b/c those are some of the side effects corticosteriods (systemic & not inhaled)

by fuzzy wuzzy on Aug 23, 2010 2:37 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Cushings

My mother has that.

"You got to be a man to grow a moustache. Anybody can pay a couple of hundred bucks to get a tattoo. That don't mean nothing. I've had my moustache since I was two months old." ~ Don Frye

by asa on Aug 23, 2010 3:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Definetly more attention needs to be put on this as obviously their not the only two people to have done or be doing it. How Many are suckin it in just before walkout, an as Ive said before about the old asthma pill trick, why isnt it being checked for? No one really thought anyone in MMA would be doing it, but obviously are, but to what extent. Glad to see Bauzen’s article opening some eyes to this shit.

How do you Know where Im at? If you dont Know where Ive been...Understand where Im coming from??

by Chiggs on Aug 23, 2010 12:20 AM EDT reply actions  

LOL

After skimming the rules before I crash, I also happened upon a couple of fun things.

The rules being quoted to disallow the use of unapproved substances is in regards to the second AKA the cornermen. It has no bearing on the use by the fighters of any substance as long as the cornerman isn’t responsible for it. The only real rules I found in regards to what the fighters used was in relation to illegal substances, and the use of drugs or alcohol 24 hours prior to the event, both of which are allowed with permission of the Director and with a doctors script…

Also, since i think someone else mentioned it. Hepatitis testing is part of their medical testing, and a postive test is a disqualification from fighting so baby Fedor still can’t mess with Texas.

Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com - Artist formerly known as Sklz711

by Jacob Hayes on Aug 23, 2010 12:23 AM EDT reply actions  

Kirilenkov has a blood disease?

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 23, 2010 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Those are just the “administrative rules” for combat sports in Texas, I have to wonder if for the actual MMA rules if they just adopted the unified rules and I also wonder where their actual banned substance list is and what is on it?

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

having the twin passions of mma and climbing...

Specifically at altitude, I feel I can add to this discussion. I rolled 3 days after performing a rescue at 18i000 feet on pico de orizaba. It was like playing doom after IDDQD. I have been above 13000 feet six times this summer and while I stil have noodle arms I can go forever (lol extenz). There is a reason athletes train high, and if a bottle gives you that edge it is a huge advantage. Everest was climbed with O’s in 1953 by very ordinary fellows. Not until 78 did the best climbers who ever lived got up without.

THREE MUSKATEERS BAR P4P BEST HALLOWEEN CANDY

by BloodbathAndBeyond on Aug 23, 2010 12:41 AM EDT reply actions  

KInda offtopic, but doesnt Lashely Train at High Altitude and mention it as part of his training/training regimn? Mention it cuz of how he seemed to gas hard. And Yeah I know that Tito an quite afew others mention training at High A. as helping Cardio. Guess Bobby shoulda had a canister or three during his fight :P Seriously though, thanks for the 1st hand insight/exp. BBAB, good to know

How do you Know where Im at? If you dont Know where Ive been...Understand where Im coming from??

by Chiggs on Aug 23, 2010 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Shane Carwin trains at over a mile above sea level every damn day – just living in Colorado doesn’t make it automatic.

That said, I totally feel Bloodbath on IDDQD – I live in Colorado Springs (6,000 ft + above sea level), go to San Diego for a few days and feel like I can swim until I can’t see land. Then I get back to Denver, smoke a cigarette and get woozy.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 23, 2010 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

goddamn bloodbathandbeyond.... impressive
and if a bottle gives you that edge

it doesn’t

by fuzzy wuzzy on Aug 23, 2010 2:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well after looking at Texas’s proposed rules (I was wondering where the banned substance list was) I found that actually testing fighters and controlling substances used is something they haven’t got around to yet.

Current regulation

(o) The administration or use of any drugs or alcohol during, or up to 24 hours before a contest is prohibited unless a drug is prescribed, administered or authorized by a licensed physician and the Executive Director authorizes the contestant to use the drug. If a contestant is taking prescribed or over the counter medication, he/she must inform the Executive Director of such usage at least 24 hours prior to the contest.
(p) As a condition of licensure, contestants waive right of confidentiality of medical records relating to treatment or diagnosis of any condition that relates to the contestant’s ability to participate in a contest. All medical records submitted to the Department are confidential, and shall be used only by the Executive Director or his/her representative for the purpose of ascertaining the contestant’s ability to be licensed or participate in a contest.
(q) Medical disqualification of a contestant is for his own safety and may be made at the recommendation of the examining physician or the Department. If a contestant disagrees with a medical disqualification, medical suspension or rest period set at the discretion of a ringside physician or a disqualification set by the Department, he may request a hearing to show proof of fitness. The hearing shall be provided at the earliest opportunity after the Department receives a written request from the contestant or his manager.

Proposed amendment

The Department proposed amendment to §61.47(o) and new subsections (p) – (q) prohibits the use of any drugs, alcohol, stimulants or injections before or during a bout, to require an applicant or licensee to provide a urine sample at the executive director’s direction and to codify a list of prohibited substances that would be conclusive evidence of a violation. The drugs proposed for inclusion in §61.47(q) are those covered by the World Anti-Doping Agency 2010 Prohibited List.

So the answer as to why they could get away with this? Texas doesn’t currently ban anything beyond drugs and alcohol and not letting the ED know about your perscriptions. They also have no testing or banned substance list to test for. As long as you aren’t drunk or stoned during the fight you are good to go in Texas.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 2:02 AM EDT reply actions  

Christ, you’re thorough. I’m still focusing on what the corners are or aren’t allowed to bring to the cage with them – seems to me it’s the AC’s intent to say “these are the items you can bring” as opposed to “you can bring this stuff and whatever the hell else you want”

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 23, 2010 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

I got sidetracked arguing silly irrelevant stuff with VB because his stuff amused me, it took me a while to actually try and figure out where the banned substance list was (or apparantly wasn’t). For a state the size of Texas with the combat sports history they have I never would of guessed that they didn’t actually have a prohibited substance list or a way to even test for anything at all. So there is the actual story there, I guess someone should ask some of the other AC’s what their stance is because in Texas if you aren’t currently drunk or infected with Hep C you are good to get in the cage. Heck they don’t even have a regulated test to see if you are drunk before a fight.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 2:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

In you thoroughness did you get this

http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/World_Anti-Doping_Program/WADP-Prohibited-list/WADA_Prohibited_List_2010_EN.pdf

apparently the world anti-doping agency took oxygen suppliments off their list of banned substences earlier this year. I am sure we will hear that numerous mma stars, including UFC fighters, have used legally used it.

by John Nash on Aug 23, 2010 4:06 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I don't doubt it

Hell, Wilks is a spokesman for the canisters you see Mo and Noons use. During training, you could use the shit out of oxygen. The point (I swear to you) is that his corner brought something out of the locker room to the cage that wasn’t supposed to be in their possession at the time, according to the rules as written.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 23, 2010 4:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

No it was 2 in the morning and I went to bed, I mean to check the WADP 2010 list this morning but they actually expect me to do work at work for some reason. They are silly like that. Thanks for checking that, not that it actually matters, Texas doesn’t have a prohibited list or any testing methods anyway, they can’t even regulate for over the counter medication unless the fighter actually tells them he is taking it and ask for their ok. Mo could of been downing caffine pills and diet pills and had a Frappuccino inbetween rounds for all Texas could do about it.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 8:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Thought this was funny
LAKE FOREST, CA, March 05, 2009 /24-7PressRelease/ — According to a statement from the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), bottled or canned oxygen is banned under Prohibited Methods, Section M1: Enhancement of oxygen transfer: “Artificially enhancing the uptake, transport or delivery of oxygen is prohibited.”

By citing this Section M1 ruling, WADA, is categorizing bottled or canned oxygen along with potentially dangerous oxygen delivering methods like blood doping, perfluorocarbons, efaproxiral and modified haemoglobin products. From a risk assessment standpoint, this comparison is VERY unreasonable. Oxygen has been safely used in medicine for decades, whereas the other methods specifically cited by this rule are known to have potentially serious side effects.

Since bottled medical oxygen is considered a drug by the FDA, it is understandable that its use is banned. However, considering the nature of recreational canned oxygen, it seems very surprising that WADA would ban it:

1. It is completely safe and not considered a drug by FDA guidelines.

2. It has never been scientifically proven to enhance athletic performance.

3. It is publicly available and affordable, therefore it would not jeopardize the true “spirit of sport.”

4. There is no way to test for it, so athletes who continue to train with oxygen and defy the rules would never get caught.

Most people find this ruling VERY difficult to accept, especially since the National Football League, one of the most respected sports organizations in the world, allows its players to PUBLICLY use oxygen on the sidelines during games. This was clearly demonstrated in this year’s Super Bowl.

Something is definitely amiss with WADA’s decision making process here. Either that, or they have grown in scale to the point where they do not feel they need to justify their actions to the athletes they are supposed to be protecting and governing.

For a more detailed version of this press release, go to:
www.oxygen4energy.com/wada-bans-oxygen.html

For more information on recreational canned oxygen, go to: www.oxygen4energy.com

Train Harder. Recover Faster. It’s All About OXYGEN!

http://www.24-7pressrelease.com/press-release/oxygen4energy-international-sports-news-world-antidoping-agency-wada-bans-oxygen-use-90267.php

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 8:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Holy Butchering of the English Language

That’s what you get for posting late after a bunch of cocktails. Shit.

by John Nash on Aug 23, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

for all you nerds that just want to know..

i agree that the problem is with the tx commission. if they are missing this, what else are they missing?

that said, breathing 100% O2 5min b/f a fight isn’t gonna do shit and here’s why:

O2 content of blood = (Hgb x 1.36 x SaO2) + (0.0031 x PaO2)
                                   = how much O2 is carried by RBCs + how much is dissolved in blood

-Hgb=hemoglobin aka red blood cell count (giving more RBCs than normal doesn’t help fyi)
-SaO2 is the percent of hemoglobin that is saturated w/ O2. You know, when they put the pulse oxymeter on your finger in the hospital. 90-100% is ok. Most healthy individuals (nonsmokers) have a 97%+ SaO2 on room air (sea level).
-PaO2 is the partial pressure of O2 (the percent you are breathing).

So increasing the inhaled Oxygen percent doesn’t doesn’t change the first part of the equation (again most healthy people have close to 100% hemoglobin saturation and you can’t go about 100) but it does change the 2nd part (the amount dissolved in your blood).

But the fact is that O2 dissolves very poorly in blood (the cooficient being 0.0031) so breathing pure O2 doesn’t increase the O2 content in your blood to any significant measure. Not to mention that you’ll breath it all out in a few minutes.

I think that’s enough medical stuff for one day.

by fuzzy wuzzy on Aug 23, 2010 2:58 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Well put

Brent is being really disingenuous when talking about doubling dive time.

That’s because free divers only one breath. MMA fighters do not fight while holding their breath! They take hundreds of breaths per round. Mo and Noons breathed in the oxygen rich air, absorbed a few extra oxygen atoms in their blood, then breath it back out. The effect is completely negligible.

It’s all psychological. Maybe a fighter feels something for a few seconds, but it will have zero affect on their performance. I can’t believe how many people are talking about OXYGEN being a banned substance!

by Mint on Aug 24, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bloody Elbow Deserves Congrats!

This is an article that is exactly what MMA needs. Good job BE!

by Dean Head on Aug 23, 2010 3:05 AM EDT reply actions  

I am not sure if any one has stated this, but it is a known fact that King Mo has ASTHMA, therfore the need for an oxygen spray. Seems cut and dry, that this was not an illegal act. Unless there has been a recent change to the guidelines that says those athlethes that suffer from asthma are unable to be use asthma sprays, as it gives them an unfair advantage over those that do not suffer from asthma, then this is NOT ILLEGAL.

by pRoXiMo on Aug 23, 2010 3:47 AM EDT reply actions  

I’ll be sure to let my probation officer know that my medical marijuana card renders him powerless.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 23, 2010 4:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

King Mo has ASTHMA, therfore the need for an oxygen spray.

No no no!!! just stop it you guys!!!! O2 is not a treatment for asthma. If your asthma exacerbation is so bad that you’re desaturating then you need to get your ass to the ER stat (and then O2 is ok, so you know, don’t die)

But I did go through the 2010 world antidoping code, and albuterol (asthma rescue inhaler) is ok:


All beta-2 agonists (including both optical isomers where relevant) are prohibited
except salbutamol (maximum 1600 micrograms over 24 hours) and salmeterol by
inhalation which require a declaration of Use in accordance with the International
Standard for Therapeutic Use Exemptions.

by fuzzy wuzzy on Aug 23, 2010 5:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

that doesn’t matter. Fighters with ADHD have had to pull out of fights because they didn’t stop taking their meds, why would asthma be different?

If it’s against the rules, it’s against the rules.

by Phildo on Aug 23, 2010 7:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

because for ADD you INGEST amphetamines and for asthma you inhale corticosteriods regularly, and albuterol as rescue, neither of which has significant systemic absorption nor performance enhancing.

by fuzzy wuzzy on Aug 23, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

1. Legal or illegal has nothing at all to do with the prohibited substances list. The majority of substances on the list are 100% legal for regular use. Heck you can get a doctor to legally perscribe plenty of different steroids to you but that doesn’t mean you can use them in professional sports.

2. What the hell does Asthma have to do with pure Oxygen sprays?

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

the majority of substances on that list you need a prescription for.
and an MD can’t legally/ethically prescribe these w/o an indication.

by fuzzy wuzzy on Aug 23, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Having a MD prescription also has no bearing on the banned substance list. They make guys stop taking prescription drugs all the time before fights so they will have a clean system. I think there are a lot of misperceptions about banned substance lists and how/why they are enforced.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

:D
Waiver

Recreational oxygen is NOT FOR MEDICAL USE and is not intended to treat, cure or prevent any diseases. It should not be used if you have: asthma, lung or heart ailments without approval from your medical doctor. Always consult your physician before taking any supplement products. The statements and representations on this website have not been evaluated or approved by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).

http://www.oxygen4energy.com/

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Can Recreational Oxygen be used medically?

Absolutely not. Recreational oxygen is NOT FOR MEDICAL USE and is not intended to treat, cure or prevent any diseases. Always consult your physician before taking any supplement products. PLEASE NOTE: Recreational oxygen should not be used if you have: asthma, lung or heart ailments without approval from your medical doctor.

http://www.oxygen4energy.com/oxygen-faq.html

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Their whole site is like that, they make wild claims of all sorts of amazing effects and then put in notes that it’s for recreational use only, the FDA hasn’t approved it and they don’t have the research to back up any claims. It’s snake oil 101

:D

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Could someone just call the Texas State Athletic Commission on Monday to ask about this?

Also asking about the lack of drug testing would be nice too, since that’s a hundred times more significant in my opinion.

by Chromium on Aug 23, 2010 3:59 AM EDT reply actions  

You do know that was taken care of in the actual article right?

I’ll be reaching out to the athletic commission to see if I can get a statement from them on this situation.

This is the comments section it’s just a bunch of people having fun talking to each other. Never have understood why people get worked up over the comments section on a sports blog?

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 8:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

You know, I rarely get involved in these sorts of web arguments anymore, but then again real people in the industry tend to read this site, and everyone here seems to be in an uproar due to the misleading use in the article title of the word “illegal” (this has not been established), and the fact that the fighters in question were the unquestionable asshat KJ Noons and the polarizing King Mo. If there was a similar situation a year ago and the article title was “Did Randy Couture Break The Rules By Using An Oxygen Can?” I guarantee you the majority of posts would be defending Randy.

by Chromium on Aug 23, 2010 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Screw the oxygen drama. I just cant believe that fighters are specifically banned from mixing honey or sugar with their drinks?!?!? wft?!?! What if they wanted to chew some jelly beans for energy?? Banned?? Is there a any simple explanation for banning sugar?!?!

by GeeDub on Aug 23, 2010 9:05 AM EDT reply actions  

I think the original intent is that by allowing only water inside the ring/cage, you are covered in case someone tries to put anything that will actually make a difference into a drink.

by Phildo on Aug 23, 2010 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sugar will make an actual difference. I would guess that water and electrolytes are only allowed because dehydration makes one more susceptible to brain trauma. That being said, popping a few jelly beans just before you enter the cage, and not between rounds, is considered fine.

by Chromium on Aug 23, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

In Texas they have no banned substance list but they specifically say no honey in the water. They also have a regulation about appearance but for some reason they didn’t site Noon’s hair.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Doesn’t it say they use the world doping agency banned substance list?

by Dropkick434 on Aug 23, 2010 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

No it says they are proposing to use it, there is currently no prohibitted substance list or testing proceedures in place in Texas.

Current regulation

(o) The administration or use of any drugs or alcohol during, or up to 24 hours before a contest is prohibited unless a drug is prescribed, administered or authorized by a licensed physician and the Executive Director authorizes the contestant to use the drug. If a contestant is taking prescribed or over the counter medication, he/she must inform the Executive Director of such usage at least 24 hours prior to the contest.
(p) As a condition of licensure, contestants waive right of confidentiality of medical records relating to treatment or diagnosis of any condition that relates to the contestant’s ability to participate in a contest. All medical records submitted to the Department are confidential, and shall be used only by the Executive Director or his/her representative for the purpose of ascertaining the contestant’s ability to be licensed or participate in a contest.
(q) Medical disqualification of a contestant is for his own safety and may be made at the recommendation of the examining physician or the Department. If a contestant disagrees with a medical disqualification, medical suspension or rest period set at the discretion of a ringside physician or a disqualification set by the Department, he may request a hearing to show proof of fitness. The hearing shall be provided at the earliest opportunity after the Department receives a written request from the contestant or his manager.

Proposed amendment

The Department proposed amendment to §61.47(o) and new subsections (p) – (q) prohibits the use of any drugs, alcohol, stimulants or injections before or during a bout, to require an applicant or licensee to provide a urine sample at the executive director’s direction and to codify a list of prohibited substances that would be conclusive evidence of a violation. The drugs proposed for inclusion in §61.47(q) are those covered by the World Anti-Doping Agency 2010 Prohibited List.

by who me on Aug 23, 2010 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

They could claim it provides a performance boost during the fight.

by Dropkick434 on Aug 23, 2010 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

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