Do Muhammed "King Mo" Lawal and Daniel Cormier Make a Case That Wrestling Is the Best Martial Art for MMA?
by Kid Nate on Aug 20, 2010 6:20 PM EDT
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Dave Meltzer talks to Muhammed "King Mo" Lawal. After covering his life-long enthusiasm for pro wrestling and long standing habit of obsessively watching tape on competitors they get to Lawal's transition from amateur wrestling to MMA:
He didn't quite get that gold, but he did win national titles in 2005 and 2008, as well as gold at the 2007 Pan American Games. Considered having medal potential in 2008, Lawal was matched against fellow American Andy Hrovat in a best-of-three series to determine who would make the Olympic team. Hrovat, who Lawal beat for the '08 national title, won the third match by scoring with seven seconds left.
"I already knew that was my last year in amateur wrestling," he said. And as soon as he lost at the trials, he knew he was MMA-bound.
Daniel Cormier talks to Ben Fowlkes and credits Lawal with leading him into the MMA world:
"Really, it was Mo, man. Mo was just on me all the time, saying, 'You got to try this. You could be good at it.' And once I started doing it I was like, I really like this. It's fun. But honestly, I think Mo played the biggest part in it. He was always on me telling me how good it was."
At first Cormier was reluctant to give up his dreams of an Olympic medal. You spend the bulk of your life wrestling, hearing stories of the heroes in singlets who came before you, it can be a little difficult to give up the dream just to get punched in the face for a living.
But after being forced out of the 2008 Olympics due to kidney failure, Cormier began to reconsider trying out MMA. A trip to the American Kickboxing Academy helped cement the decision, but then Cormier faced a new issue. After being one of the top dogs in wrestling, now he was nothing more than a rookie in MMA.
Our own Leland Roling detailed just how impressive Cormier's amateur wrestling credentials are:
Cormier, of course, was a high school All-American, two-time JuCo national champion, NCAA runner-up, 2004 and 2008 Olympic wrestler, and 2007 World Championships bronze medalist. There aren't too many other wrestlers in the sport with Cormier's credentials on a world level, and he's actually added a powerful punch to his arsenal to make him quite threatening.
So far Lawal is a few steps ahead of Cormier in his evolution in the sport, but both men are progressing nicely. The thing that continues to impress me about wrestling as a martial art and amateur wrestling as a pool of athletic talent.
More in the full entry:
While both Lawal and Cormier are training MMA at a top camp and showing marked progress at adding new elements to their game -- particularly Lawal -- they are both essentially relying on their wrestling advantage to win in MMA.
Of the three phases of MMA -- striking at a distance, the clinch and the ground game -- freestyle wrestling prepares an athlete to contend in all three. At a distance the freestyler can shoot in for a double leg, in the clinch he's got a plethora of trips, throws and take downs and on the ground he's immediately prepared to control position and ride out a scramble.
Wrestlers like Lawal and Cormier who also bring the natural athleticism to their MMA training that allows them to hit hard and accurately have another quick step up. Not every wrestler who comes to MMA is a gifted ground and pounder or dirty boxer, but those who can naturally hit hard have a very easy time adapting to MMA.
Add to that the fact that of the major combat sports, wrestling probably takes the longest time to master. Some will argue that the striking arts take longer to learn and they may be right, but the reality of MMA is that a pure wrestler will tend to beat a pure striker. Add to that my impression that MMA wrestling is harder to master than MMA jiu jitsu and we might be looking at an insurmountable advantage.
I'm basing that on the fact that we've seen numerous wrestling-based fighters add slick submission games to their arsenal -- Matt Hughes, Jake Shields, Phil Davis, etc etc -- but we've seen very few BJJ fighters come in and add a dominating take down and top control game to their repertoire.
Is wrestling the best base art to bring to MMA? I have to say, yes.
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Wrestling is without question the best base for MMA.
As far as effectiveness goes today, where everyone trains everything, my opinion is Wrestling, Striking, JJ.
I'm Not Afraid of Dying, I'm a Little Bit Scared of What Comes After...
by SouthCaliStunNa on Aug 20, 2010 5:37 PM EDT reply actions
No doubt.
When GSP takes his atheletic gifts from Karate and BJJ into the Wreslting realm that late in his career, you know it’s because it is effective. Wrestling is the best base, and even late to the party fighter are learning this…
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
It's been said before
Cardio is the best base for being a mixed martial artist. I know that’s a joke, but there’s a twist on it that is quite true. We’re at a stage where the best athletes are the best mixed martial artists, or at least have the most potential. GSP had no wrestling base, but his athleticism allowed him to become superior at all facets of MMA. His “MMA wrestling” is much vaunted, but if he actually went to the Olympics for wrestling he’d probably be murdered. In tandem with his jiu-jitsu, which enhances his work in the guard and keeps him from being subbed left and right, and his striking which keeps opponents off-balance, his wrestling is allowed to shine. GSP is not the best pure wrestler, is not a BJJ maestro, and would get KO’d by Giorgio Petrosyan in 5 seconds, but his athleticism allows him to blend all three into a highly potent mixture.
I throw raps that attack like the Japs on Pearl Harbor/MC's be out like bank robbers/Fleeing the scene, to be a sole survivor/DJ the getaway driver/Tried to dip but he dive, I socialize on vocal vibes/On tracks stabbed up with razor sharp knives
Yes. Without a doubt.
- The ability to control your oponent, no matter where the fight takes place.
- The conditioning that comes with top notch wrestling.
- The discipline wrestlers learn while performing at the highest levels of amateur wrestling. (This includes perfecting weight cutting)
- The ability to take advantage of range and clinch situations.
A great wrestler with funtional MMA wrestling and some learned submission defense can go a long way.
Jacare is one BJJ practicioner who has developed explosive takedowns. Generally, I agree, though.
BTW saying wrestling is the best base for mma is groundbreaking news…
ten years ago.
Goldberg on Leben: One thing's for sure--he really did break that door on the Ultimate Fighter.
Rogan: uh...yeah.
Even so
He seems to have done an excellent job of integrating wrestling into his BJJ…
The only “name” BJJ guy I can recall that blew me away with his wrestling-style double-leg takedowns, and I have no idea where he acquired the skill, was Ryan Gracie.
I am surprised that the evolution to incorporate more freestyle wrestling takedowns and TDD into BJJ for MMA has been so slow to really catch on. The true MMA Wrestler (a hybrid blend of various forms of wrestling with BJJ, especially BJJ that focuses on sub defense and using sub attempts more as a positional tool than anything else) is undoubtedly the future of MMA.
The old-school Mark Coleman-type guys are as antiquated at the highest levels as the pure BJJ guys or the MT guys are becoming. Matt Hughes was probably the first to really effectively combine BJJ into his wrestling to win dominantly in MMA, and GSP has taken it to the next level.
The New School guys who are going to rule the game for many years are taking it further still by starting with a much higher level wrestling base and incorporating BJJ (and some Judo and Sambo) at a much younger age.
The future is guys like Jones, Askren, Davis, Lawal, Cormier, Hendricks and the like…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 20, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Wrestling is the best martial art and it will stay that way
Takedown defense (like Chuck Liddell) is absolutely critical especially if you can’t submit someone off of your back.
It’s not far-fetched to see the UFC champions at the end of 2011 be Gray Maynard, Jon Fitch, Chael Sonnen, Jon Jones, and Cain Velasquez.
Looking for signature ideas.
But completely possible
"I got a good Christian raising and a 8th grade education / Ain't no need in y'all in treating me this way." - Billy Joe Shaver
It could also be
Jose Aldo (move up in weight), Thiago Alves (younger than Fitch and should outlast), Nate Marquardt, Shogun (reign!), and Junior Dos Santos.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Hmmm....a Brazilian sweep sans Marquardt
Replace Marquardt with Belfort?
Looking for signature ideas.
Vitor is getting up there in years
and does not handle wrestlers well. I think that if Anderson and Chael get out of the way then the middleweight division will be all about if Nate could stop Okami’s takedowns and top control. This has a lot to do with them being younger than Andy/Chael but also having loads of experience over the rest of the division.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I think other than Marquardt
The middleweight division will be dominated by wrestlers and wrestlers only. Once Anderson loses his belt (via loss or retirement or whatever) I can see the window of opportunity for Okami, Sonnen, hell if Shields wants to he can give 185 a crack.
Looking for signature ideas.
The problem is, there aren't many guys that Demian can't submit.
It kinda sucks to be a wrestler when there’s a guy so good off his back that you can’t use your best skillset. Only a wrestler with good striking, quick footwork, and amazingly good sprawl/scramble can beat him. I think Okami is the only guy in the division who fits that mold. Nate is also a nightmare matchup, but I think Demian can drag anybody else to the ground and do work.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Middleweight is ripe for the taking by a true MMA wrestler
Which Sonnen is not. Whether it is a GSP, Shields or Fitch moving up, or a Rashad or Lawal moving down, MW doesn’t have any elite MMA Wreslters (although Sonnen is an elite wrestler, he is far more Mark Coleman than GSP when it come to MMA Wrestling).
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 20, 2010 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Can’t you just put GSP in for Fitch? He exemplifies a wrestler just as well.
"You hear people say, 'You're the greatest,' and all this stuff. It's BS. It's fake, it's all fake. You've just got to keep training as hard as you can. The only thing real is the fight, everything else is fake." - BJ Penn
He doesn't really work though
He’s MUCH more then just a wrestler. Maybe the best striker at 170, amazing athlete, legit JJ black belt, amazing transitional skills, etc, etc. Fitch works better in this example.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein"
- Goonisis
Uh, you mean
Penn, GSP, Silva, Evans, Lesnar
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
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by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 20, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha! Unless they are protected by injury or matchmaking,
there is very little liklihood that Anderson or especially Rashad are champs at the end of 2011, and BJ with his failure to evolve further is no lock either. If Lesnar survives Cain, he probably remains champ for now.
Rashad could however be a champ at the end of 2011 if he moves down to his more natural class of 185, assuming GSP doesn’t move up.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 20, 2010 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions
“BJ with his failure to evolve further is no lock either” That’s something you just said. How is BJ not a modern fighter. How is BJ not well rounded?
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
by Neil Manich on Aug 20, 2010 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He is well rounded to be sure, but he, much like Fedor, evolved before the current generation of top fighters but seem to have plateaued for the last several years.
Look at the difference between BJ-GSP 1 and BJ-GSP 2 to see the example. In the first fight they were largely very evenly matched, but GSP continued to evolve, both with MMA techniques and training techniques, and he is now on a whole other level than BJ.
Its much like looking at the dominant champs of 3-10 years ago – those guys are not even close to the level of the current elite fighters. They were the best in their day, and some are still quite effective but no longer elite (Rampage for example), whereas a few others managed to evolve and remain elite (Shogun for example).
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 20, 2010 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions
That's right
You’re the “Rampage is a journey man” guy. You are crazy on that one, and crazy on this one. GSP was 25 when he first fought BJ, and pretty green. Improvement is not the same thing as evolution. Shogun isn’t more “evolved” than Rampage, he’s just a better fighter than Rampage period. He was four years ago, and he is now.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Rampage is simply an old-school, one-dimensional fighter who happens to have a big fanboy following, although I have never referred to him as a “journey man.” Perhaps my point with him will be more evident after a very one-sided fight with Machida – he is simply on a slow slide to glorified gatekeeper (and fringe top-10) status.
Shogun has certainly evolved, although perhaps not in the conventional sense, but he is nothing like the berserker style fighter he often was years ago, now he is clearly a guy who studies tape and game plans as well as anyone.
As for GSP, that was his 7th or 8th fight in the UFC, and 12th or more overall, hardly “green” but evolution vs improvement IS GSP vs Bj – one has continually added elements large and small to his game throughout his career, and the other is simply better now at the same things he was doing 5 years ago, possibly excepting his BJJ which I would argue is worse now then then…of course, “worse” is relative when starting from the levels BJ was out…its just not a point of emphasis for him any more…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 20, 2010 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions
If there were a young, powerful, evolved, dynamic weight-cutting MMA Wrestler at LW, BJ’s reign would likely already be over, but there is not one. Maynard, for all of his coniderable wrestling skill is, like Sonnen, too much Mark Coleman and not enough GSP…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 20, 2010 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
This is true. LW has surprisingly few well credentialed wrestlers. Maynard’s wrestling isn’t bad but guida is thought to be one of the better wrestlers in the LW division and his wrestling seems mediocre. Shamolrous (SP?) in the WEC seems very effective and has international experience although he thinks he’s a striker and his gnp and top game are nothing to get excited about. I’ve heard that Metcalf likes MMA. I think someone like him would really tear through the LW division. Maybe we’ll find out sometime after 2012.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Aug 21, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Ben Askren says herro
I throw raps that attack like the Japs on Pearl Harbor/MC's be out like bank robbers/Fleeing the scene, to be a sole survivor/DJ the getaway driver/Tried to dip but he dive, I socialize on vocal vibes/On tracks stabbed up with razor sharp knives
by Anthony Pace on Aug 20, 2010 8:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Only BJJ guys I can think of that added wrestling are
Macaco
Arona
Filho
Jacare
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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 20, 2010 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Was unaware he was a BJJ guy
Thought he was a submission wrestler.
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 20, 2010 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions
BJ Penn added wrestling and striking to his repertoire.
http://www.InStrength.com - the best MMA community anywhere.
Good point. BJ’s offensive wrestling is surprisingly good (when he uses it).
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Aug 21, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
wrestling a martial art????
you mean its the best sport right? since the foundation of a martial art is combat and wrestling has no weapons training, no multiple attackers training, no “non gym” combat at all it can hardly be called a martial art…same goes for bjj. its really great when facing just one opponent in the ring or any other controlled enviroment but try that shit on the street and you stand a large chance of biting off way more than you can chew…imao
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction....in other words Karma is a M______F_____
and the guys who really dominate
are all martial artists gsp, silva, and to a lesser degree machita. these guys utilize traditional styles and then incorporate modern "ring fighting techniques. to form formidable defences and explosive offences
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction....in other words Karma is a M______F_____
by Crunk4Cheifs on Aug 20, 2010 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions
i don't buy that distinction
in my world, combat sport = martial art
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Aug 20, 2010 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
MMA is nothing like real life or death combat
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 20, 2010 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Cause if you're trying to kill me
I’m totally gonna kick you in the nuts and stick my thumb in your eye while trying to break your thumbs.
Yeah, let’s not take this analogy too far. MMA ain’t life or death combat.
"I got a good Christian raising and a 8th grade education / Ain't no need in y'all in treating me this way." - Billy Joe Shaver
The best base for MMA?
Cardio, baby.
Once the pack catches up and further embraces and incorporates TDD and defensive wrestling into their game things will even out.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein"
- Goonisis
That's the rub - it is far easier said than done
Even otherwise elite wrestlers can’t stop the takedowns of the best MMA Wrestlers.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 20, 2010 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think so. I think most people coming from any discipling other than wrestling lacks some things. First, and most obviously, the skillset (top control, ability to control where the fights takes place, and all the other things already talked about here), but also a work ethic unlike anywhere else. It’s cliched maybe, but it’s true. Especially American wrestlers. They’re just crazy in the training room.
It’s because of this that a fit wrestler brings in cardio. All other MMA guys, once they “catch up” to this, that still leaves them short of everything else.
wrasslin is great
be great at what you do and you should do well in MMA as long as you add few other styles to your arsenal. It’s all about the athlete and not as much about the one style he possesses anymore, there are plenty of athletes who do not rely on wrestling nor have much knowledge of wrestling and do great in MMA. Brock didn’t use his wrestling to win his last match, Anderson beat a great wrestler not using wrestling (though that’s because he doesn’t have a good wrestling pedigree).
I don’t think there is any one style that is above any other anymore, this question was answered a long time ago and BJJ won hands down (watch the haters call foul on this), wrestlers needed to add sub defense (by learning BJJ) to stay relevant. nowadays it’s all about the athlete and I don’t really understand why we would need a debate to symbolize one style above another, it’s all a matter of having a great base style and adding a few others to stay on top.
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
by Orcus on Aug 20, 2010 6:39 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
"Add to that my impression that MMA wrestling is harder to master than MMA jiu jitsu"
Did you mean to write this? As has been pointed out, there are more fighters who have mastered MMA wrestling than MMA Jiu Jitsu. Also, wouldn’t ease of learning make one base better than another? Which is to say, I agree with the premise that wrestling is probably the best base to bring to MMA, but because (among other reasons) it’s an easier skill to master in an MMA setting than JJ.
most of the wrestlers we see in MMA
started training wrestling before they were in their teens.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Speaking of which
I’d love to know if school wrestling programs are gaining more popularity now as a result of successful wrestlers in the UFC…
Wrestling is growing
but not sure if MMA is a cause of that
"I got a good Christian raising and a 8th grade education / Ain't no need in y'all in treating me this way." - Billy Joe Shaver
By most accounts it is
From what I’ve heard, High School Wrestling programs are getting a huge influx of kids, and a lot of credit goes to kids watching the UFC and understanding how valuable wrestling is.
by Patrick John McGreevy on Aug 21, 2010 4:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Really?
So guys like Hughes, Askren, Lawal, Velasquez, etc. were training wrestling before high school? Although I know of the existence of wrestling clubs for younger kids, I always assumed the vast majority started in high school. Similarly, don’t a lot of Brazilians start training BJJ around the same age? I confess that this is something I don’t know for sure, just had a general impression that it was the case.
by Pantherhare on Aug 21, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
My son and his
friends started wrestling at the age of 7. Traveling teams and everything in this hick town of 40k.
i agree that Wrestlers are the best for MMA, but not wrestling
and what i mean, is that because of the physical attributes and toughness it takes to be a wrestling champion, they do great when crossing over to MMA.
so wrestling naturally selects athletes so only the top make it. This is not always the case in BJJ. You have guys like Felipe Costa, Roger Gracie, demian maia etc winning the world championships at BLack belt, and not being that explosive or athletically gifted.
So i guess what im trying to say is, its not wrestling thats better, its the WRESTLERS themselves that are better athelets. If King Mo or Brock lesnar had world caliber Black belts in BJJ can you imagine how scary that would be?!
what about
Royce Alger or Rulon Gardner? they were both very successful wrestlers who went bust in MMA, largely because of limited athletic ability.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
There are lots of elite wrestlers unable to transition it effectively into MMA
Rosholt is probably the most glaring example when credentials are considered…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 20, 2010 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions
not really. Rosholt has been pretty damn succesful, he even subbed Leben who everyone is obsessed with, these days. He’s def UFC quality just had a couple of bad losses. You’re just trying to convince yourself that wrestling alone won’t make u succesful in MMA, which it pretty much will as long as u learn some basic skills to compliment it.
Goldberg on Leben: One thing's for sure--he really did break that door on the Ultimate Fighter.
Rogan: uh...yeah.
Wrestling is the best
but you just can’t be a wrestler.
boxing is the best base
havent seen any fighters use it at a high level…maybe fedor and bj
there are many top wrestlers in mma…no good boxers, so there isnt enough data to compare
Sure worked for Noons against Diaz...
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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 20, 2010 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions
interesting
would be a good case for this if more people had an effective jab
I throw raps that attack like the Japs on Pearl Harbor/MC's be out like bank robbers/Fleeing the scene, to be a sole survivor/DJ the getaway driver/Tried to dip but he dive, I socialize on vocal vibes/On tracks stabbed up with razor sharp knives
by Anthony Pace on Aug 20, 2010 8:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
A nice jab
is good way to avoid a TD.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 20, 2010 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Tell that to Toney
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
That's gonna be interesting to see.
If Toney can snap his jab out strong and sharp as Randy moves in, he may have a chance of staying on his feet.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 20, 2010 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions
What good does boxing do you on the ground?
Wrestling encompasses standing and ground.
"I got a good Christian raising and a 8th grade education / Ain't no need in y'all in treating me this way." - Billy Joe Shaver
James Toney is going to prove that boxing is the best base
Actually, no he’s not.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Aug 21, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Boxing from leg is left
open to attacks in MMA. Planting that lead foot gets you kicked then taken down. Not the best start for a boxer. Boxing doesn’t teach situational control of someone else body or how to get off the ground when you are put down. Stuff every MMA fighter has to deal with.
How much trouble would Cormier give Lesnar?
I’m not saying he’d beat him, not am I saying he’s the better fighter. But he’s better at what Brock does best (don’t try to argue that point, you’d be disgustingly wrong). It’s just an interesting question, that’s all.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 20, 2010 7:50 PM EDT reply actions
I've thought about that before too.
I predict an ugly, ugly brawl. Lesnar might have slightly faster hands, but Cormier has power to knock a man clean out. It’s an interesting proposition.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I think what sets them apart
Is that Lesnar is a once in a generation athletic freak. Men the size and strength of Lesnar shouldn’t have that kind of speed and agility and those that do should be ruling small nations, deflowering women with their icy gaze and eating small children for breakfast.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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by Worldisart on Aug 20, 2010 8:09 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Lesnar's not that athletic
compared to other high level athlete his size.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 20, 2010 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions
He definitely is
Compared to high level athletes in MMA. He’s not Lebron James, but he’s a stud.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Yeah
but he said Brock was a “once in a generation freak athlete.”
Not even close in those terms. Even in MMA, I’m not sure he’s that much more athletic than everyone else.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 20, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I also said
He can pop a girls cherry with his eyes and that he eats babies. You wanna argue about that?
In the context of this discussion as it concerns MMA HWs, he truly is one of a kind.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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by Worldisart on Aug 20, 2010 8:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That part is undisputable. :)
I didn’t know you meant only in MMA.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 20, 2010 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Context my friend
:)
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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by Worldisart on Aug 20, 2010 8:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
One thing I would say:
I think Overeem is a pretty good comparison. Brock’s a little quicker, but I think Overeem is much stronger. Just judging by Brock’s bench numbers (475lbs). Alistair also seems to be much more coordinated, IMO.
I’m not saying he’s a better fighter, I just think they are very comparable.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 20, 2010 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Brock is still significantly bigger than Overeem. The closest to comparison to Brock is Carwin, and the differences there seem obvious.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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Well sure Brock has about 30 pounds on him
But Overeem is really no joke in the athleticism department. I think the comparison is fair.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
I think a ripped, post WWE Brock
would be about 255lbs.
Look at Lashley, he’s at least 30lbs smaller than he was in WWE, but still ripped.
For AO to throw huge men around like that he must be super powerful. I mean on an elite level in any sport. He trains like an Olympic power lifter or a Strongman.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 20, 2010 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions
WWE Brock was 300+ pounds reportedly. UFC Brock walks about at a meager 285 pounds. Brock would weight 255 pounds if he cut off one of those oversized arms, maybe. I’ve never seen AO throw Brock around, or anyone near as big as Brock. Don’t say Brett Rogers because he is fatter, and smaller than Brock.
by Patrick John McGreevy on Aug 21, 2010 4:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Do some research. It's not hard.
265lbs is 265lbs. Doesn’t matter if it’s 265lbs of feathers.
Unless you know some special secret math, Brett is probably bigger and heavier than Brock.
But don’t let facts stop you from making baseless claims.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 21, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/UFC-116-Return-Represents-Lesnars-Second-Wind-25246
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 21, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
265 lbs is not 265 lbs
Weight is not weight. Muscle is muscle and fat is fat. There is a big difference between 265 pounds of muscle and 265 pounds of fat, anyone with any knowledge of strength training and fitness would tell you that.
But don’t let facts stop you from making baseless claims.
by Patrick John McGreevy on Aug 22, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
You have a very limtied understanding.
Your statement reeks of misunderstanding and ignorance. You already proved it true when you spewed some garbage about Brock being 285lbs. Maybe you know better than he does?
Do you realize how dumb you sound? On a scale, 265lbs is 265lbs no matter what. Is that better?
I guess as I certified trainer, I just wouldn’t understand anything about strength training or fitness.
I’d like to see how much knowledge of strength training and fitness you have. Did you ever go to college to study HPE or fitness technology? Why don’t you just post some pics of your enlightened physique? How’s your body composition since you’re an expert?
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 22, 2010 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Just to clarify for your simple ass:
I never once said Brett was stronger, leaner or more muscular than Brock. Only that he weighs more.
How is that even disputable if Brock himself says that he weighs 265lbs with no cut?
Learn to read what’s written instead of what’s not.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 22, 2010 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions
While the weight may be the same, not all weight is created equal.
A guy who is 265 pounds of mostly muscle will be able to put up much more of a resistance to any sorts of throwing/moving than 265 on the tubby side.
These are people, not gigantic bags of sand, tool
by Patrick John McGreevy on Aug 23, 2010 5:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Hopeless
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 23, 2010 6:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Also
Lol.
I WENT TO COLLEGE FOR THIS SHIT I BET YOU’RE NOT AS RIPPED AS ME I MUST BE RIGHT.
Awesome, it’s turned to that.
by Patrick John McGreevy on Aug 23, 2010 6:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Brock said he's only about 265 now.
Overeem is somehow smaller than he used to be IMO, but still weighs 255lbs.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 20, 2010 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Brock is just incredibly quick and fast – invariably people who have trained with him or fought him underestimated his speed – they just can’t believe someone that big can move that fast…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 20, 2010 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions
We're talking about MMA...offensive linemen/defensive linemen are better athletes
Unfortunately the only people we can really look at are Branden Schaub and Matt Mitrione and Brock when it comes to men who were football players that size. You will see more undrafted players enter MMA in the future though.
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by Matthew Roth on Aug 20, 2010 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions
In the realm of MMA HWs
Who are the comparable 265+ lbs big men, athletically speaking?
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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by Worldisart on Aug 20, 2010 8:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
LeBron James is probably the finest athlete in the world right now and he’s larger than Lesnar (weighing slightly less due to the nature of the sport he plays). There’s also several defensive ends who are that large and more athletic. Julius Peppers and Mario Williams come to mind.
The only giant rugby dude I know of is Jonah Lomu, but I don’t know rugby. There might be someone else out there that has similar abilities and gifts.
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Lesnar is no freak athlete..
maybe in MMA , but when compared to a Mario Williams or a Lebron James? Not even close…There are so many better athletes in the NFL and in the NBA.
Hmmm
You think on an MMA site, responding to a question about a potential future MMA fight, that the comment might exist in the context of MMA?
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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thought you were implying that he was one of the best in the world. Probably had to do with the way you wrote it.“once in a generation athletic freak”. “Men the size and strength of Lesnar shouldn’t have that kind of speed and agility”. I see athletes like him all the time in football and basketball.
And the same applies to them. You also notice the hyperbole with the the whole virgins and babies thing?
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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Brock’s wrestling is definitely a little overrated.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
What are you basing this on? Because Carwin was able to stuff one of his takedowns?
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Aug 21, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
In fairness:
In the first round Carwin effectively shut Brock’s wrestling down. He didn’t even get close to a TD.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 21, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Isn’t that because he was turtled against the fence the whole time? Had to get that doubleleg from there.
ha. This just shows how little you know about wrestling and in general. A good wrestler would have secured the double from that position.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Aug 21, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm being sarcastic (to be clear)
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Aug 21, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Brock had 3 failed TD attempts before he got dropped.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 21, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
OK, that doesn’t mean that his wrestling isn’t good. Why would anyone’s being sfuffed on one takedown mean that his wrestling isn’t good? First it’s a preposterously small sample size. Second, Carwin is an extremely athletic former DII champ. Being a DII HW champ isn’t insignificant; the top two freestyle wrestlers in the US are currently former DII wrestlers.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Aug 21, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree. I always tell people not to sleep on DII athletes.
I was just pointing out that during the first round Carwin didn’t allow Brock to wrestle at all. He had 3 TD attempts in the first and couldn’t come close on any of them.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 21, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Cormier is p4p the better wrestler and if couture could take BL down Cormier could. But cormier didn’t wrestle heavy weight and Lesnar has 50 pounds of muscle and is a much better athlete. I would be stunned if Cormier had his way with lesnar (although not shocked if he landed a take down or two). Cormier also doesn’t appear to have good MMA cardio. Nevertheless he should be able to beat most at HW; I doubt he’d give Lesnar too many problems.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Aug 21, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
hey...
that dude in the picture with MO… isn’t that the guy that BEAT HIM 2 out of 3 times???? I think it is… anyone know what happened to that guy… i think he stopped his olympic dreams?!?!?!?! Not sure…
ok...
i’m an idiot… i just read the article and it answered my question… feeling kinda stupid…
haha...
it happens to the best of us.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 20, 2010 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions
With the rules as they stand today?
Where takedowns with little damage seem to be scored wayyyyy more effective than sweeps or stuffed takedowns?
Where having a knee on the ground means a guy can’t knee you? Where knee strikes to the dome-piece are not allowed on the ground?
Yes. Wrestling is the best.
Please change the rules.
BOOSH
Yes
Let’s give BROCKMONSTER knees to the head while grounded. He’ll begin transitioning to North-South and then proceeding to murder his hapless opponent. I’d buy that PPV
by Patrick John McGreevy on Aug 21, 2010 4:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Just So I'm Clear
Just taking a small sample:
UFC Lightweight Champ: Frankie Edgar (wrestler). Former champ, BJ Penn (BJJ)
UFC Welterweight Champ: GSP (karate). Former champ, Matt Hughes (wrestler)
UFC Middleweight Champ: Anderson Silva (muay thai). Former champ, Rich Franklin (MMA, maybe BJJ/Muay Thai)
UFC Light Heavyweight Champ: Shogun (muay thai). Former champ: Lyoto Machida (karate)
UFC Heavyweight Champ: Lesnar (wrestling). Former champ: Randy Couture (wrestling).
My crappy math puts that at 40%. While the majority, I don’t think the stats hold up as well. Do you need wrestling (either offensive or defensive)? Yes, undoubtedly. But do you need to start with it? Debatable.
lets name the top 3 in each division
Edgar, Penn, Kenflo/Maynard = 1 possibly 2 out of 3
GSP, KOS, Fitch = 3 wrestlers (GSP is wins via wrestling not karate)
Ando, Sonnen, Marquardt = 1 wrestler
ShoGun, Evans, Machida = 1 wreslter
Brock, Carwin, Cain = 3 wrestlers
9/15 of the current TOP guys in the UFC are wrestlers.
I'm Not Afraid of Dying, I'm a Little Bit Scared of What Comes After...
by SouthCaliStunNa on Aug 20, 2010 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
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