Will B.J. Penn Move to Welterweight With a Win Over Frankie Edgar and a Kenny Florian Win at UFC 118?
by Nate Wilcox on Aug 20, 2010 1:58 PM EDT
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That's what UFC UK President Marshall Zelaznik told ESPN:
"Penn and Florian only recently happened, and it was a pretty overpowering performance from BJ," he told ESPN.co.uk.
"Depending on the BJ v Frankie fight, if BJ takes a narrow victory there is the potential for a trilogy between them.
"If Frankie were to win, it's very easy to say the winner of Florian v Maynard fights for the championship.
"But if BJ wins and Florian wins, then it puts pressure on the match-making. That then puts the possibility of BJ stepping up a weight class back on the table."
I have to wonder if Zelaznik isn't speaking out of turn here. Contrast with the UFC's "solution" to Anderson Silva beating Rich Franklin twice was to push Franklin up and out of the division. They have also shown no inclination to push GSP up and out of the welterweight division, despite him having done everything but lap the division.
And yet, if Zelaznik is to be believed, B.J. Penn and Kenny Florian cleaning out the 155lb class means it's time for Penn to move onward and upward. Interesting.
Is the prospect of a Penn vs Florian rematch so dreadful that they feel the need to reshuffle the division already? If Florian continues to improve as he has been, it's not impossible to imagine a scenario where he beats Penn. Difficult perhaps, but not impossible.
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don’t do it bj…….stay at lw
there are some good fights for him at ww
but he’s just not big enough to deal with some of those weight cutting freaks
The sea refuses no river. The idea is to remain in a state of constant departure while always arriving. It saves on introductions and goodbyes. The ride does not require explanation - just occupance.
by Johnathan Willis on Aug 20, 2010 1:10 PM EDT reply actions
But for how long?
The only clear contenders left for LW that he hasn’t beaten I can think of is Gray Maynard and Sotiroupolous. Pretty sure I just butchered his name, he’s a fighter that needs a nickname.
What do you think the chances of this happening are Nate?
"If I woke up looking like that, I would run towards the nearest living thing and kill it." -Master Shake
We have to take the amulet to the banana king!
they're fairly good
based on the odds for Penn/Edgar & Florian/Maynard. but it’s MMA.
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I don't see Florian bringing anything to Penn if they go again
"If I woke up looking like that, I would run towards the nearest living thing and kill it." -Master Shake
We have to take the amulet to the banana king!
I thought Ken Flo showed some improvement in the last two fights and will be interested to see what he does against Maynard. His takedowns seemed improved as well.
Where do you see him needing improvement to matchup with BJ?
Semper Fi
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by ChicagoMarine on Aug 20, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Everywhere
BJ does everything better than Florian… but Florian isn’t a head case so idk
"If I woke up looking like that, I would run towards the nearest living thing and kill it." -Master Shake
We have to take the amulet to the banana king!
What do you think about Guillard vs Penn?
He’s improving in his ground defense and can go toe-to-toe with BJ in standup.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 20, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Jackson's has helped Guillard a lot
Guillard makes a lot of stupid mistakes agaisnt BJJ guys, althought his recent improvement in both his life and fights does show promise. He’s quick, and has a ton of power so you never know.
"If I woke up looking like that, I would run towards the nearest living thing and kill it." -Master Shake
We have to take the amulet to the banana king!
Agreed!
I like this fight a lot! In fact, this is what I would like to see IF IN FACT Guillard wins his upcoming fight. Either Edgar or Penn would be dynamite and a good stepping stone for Guillard.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 20, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
DAMNIT STOP BRINGING THAT GUILLARD SHIT EVERYWHERE!!!
"You hear people say, 'You're the greatest,' and all this stuff. It's BS. It's fake, it's all fake. You've just got to keep training as hard as you can. The only thing real is the fight, everything else is fake." - BJ Penn
You know you want to see it! ;-)
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 20, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s improving.
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by Derek Suboticki on Aug 20, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
It'd be a fun fight for sure
I’d buy that for a dollar.
"You got to be a man to grow a moustache. Anybody can pay a couple of hundred bucks to get a tattoo. That don't mean nothing. I've had my moustache since I was two months old." ~ Don Frye
His TD defence will not be as strong with the larger rasslers in that division either.
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by Thats It For you! on Aug 20, 2010 1:13 PM EDT reply actions
Not a fan of weight jumping.
I like dominant champs. There is always someone out there that is better than you. Eventually you’ll run into that person.
Losing to GSP
Doesn’t mean he’s too small for welterweight. It means he lost to GSP. GSP beats everybody at welterweight.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
It means 170 is a dead end
At least if the move would be made with title aspirations.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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"With title aspirations"
Bj always seems like he fights just for pride anyways. “The belt is just an accessory” and all that. Fighting Fitch makes sense, fighting Alves makes sense.
If the only reason for fighting in the weight class was because you had an ultimate chance at the champ, the only people fighting at welter would be GSP and maybe Kos. Fitch would retire, and Hughes would have committed seppuku.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
He fights to be known as the best
He’s been quoted as saying that on numerous occasions. If you don’t think a move up to 170 wouldn’t be motivated by a desire to fight GSP a third time and win the title, then you’re fooling yourself.
BJ Penn’s motivations are no secret.
As for those other fighters, my comments aren’t blanket statements about all fighters, and not all fighters have the same options as Penn.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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I think ultimately he would want to fight Georges
And you’re saying that beating a couple welterweight contenders convincingly wouldn’t make you curious to see the third fight? Or is GSP the only fighter in the world who gets better?
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
GSP’s wrestling and takedown is better than Penns, which has shown to be the difference between the two.
Do you feel that Penn can outwrestle GSP? Make GSP keep it on the feet?
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 20, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Right now
No. The fight would go the same way. But if he proved to me he could dominate Fitch and keep the fight standing…
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Fitch vs Penn?
That’s a tough fight as well.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 20, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure, if he wins those fights
But with two losses already to Georges, he would have to be pretty convincing in those victories. I mean if he moves up and beats Kos, Alves and Fitch in consecutive fights, then yeah, hard to deny him, I just think the UFC would have a hard time getting the fan base worked up for a third BJ/GSP fight if BJ comes up and beats someone like Paulo Thiago and then Hughes in a rubber match.
While the fight is not beyond the realm of possibility, I think the odds of it coming to pass are pretty long.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
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That's the thing
If Bj fought at welter, I don’t want him dicking around. I’d like to see him fight Hughes for old time sake, but after that I don’t want him messing around with the Paulo Thiago’s of the division. I want him fighting Sheilds and Fitch and Kos.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
If he were to make a move
I think the best way to book him would be a rubber match with Hughes, presuming he wins that fight than go straight to Jon Fitch and the presuming he can both beat AND finish Fitch, then and only then do you do a third fight with GSP.
I’m not normally the type of guy to weigh a finish heavier than a decision but in this case, in order to create a compelling narrative for a third fight with Georges you need to have multiple story lines. You already have the grease thing, the steroid accusation and just the general dislike the two fighters have for each other. If you can add to that that BJ Penn finished the number 2 WW, a feat Georges couldn’t accomplishment, then you might be able to sell people that the result of a third fight might be different.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
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True, but...
… He’s not going to be able to outwrestle a GSP who fights comfortably at 170.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 20, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
This.
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by Derek Suboticki on Aug 20, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think the UFC has as much confidence in BJ as in GSP and Silva. They don’t expect him to hold onto a long streak at 155 (and he didn’t), so they’re trying to get as much out of him as they can. It makes sense to protect GSP from the 185 division, but if they figure BJ’s going to falter in his own weight class, they might as well throw him to the sharks.
"You hear people say, 'You're the greatest,' and all this stuff. It's BS. It's fake, it's all fake. You've just got to keep training as hard as you can. The only thing real is the fight, everything else is fake." - BJ Penn
Seriously?
BJ dominated the lightweight division and he got robbed in the first fight against Edgar. I think if he can get passed Maynard (which I think he will) and maybe Sottiroupouls he should move up in weight.
I’m just pointing out it makes sense for the UFC to have less faith in him than GSP or Silva. BJ’s known to be inconsistent. The UFC probably doesn’t believe he can go on a long streak without fucking it up, so it’s not a bad idea on their part to get some big matches out of him while he’s still semi-invincible.
"You hear people say, 'You're the greatest,' and all this stuff. It's BS. It's fake, it's all fake. You've just got to keep training as hard as you can. The only thing real is the fight, everything else is fake." - BJ Penn
Maynard can't do anything Prime Hughes couldn't
and for my money, can’t even do as much as prime Hughes. Seriously, the guy went life and death with Nate Diaz, got beat up standing, and didn’t want to even attempt to deal with his BJJ (again). What would he do against Penn, who does everything Nate Diaz does but better (albeit with slightly less reach)?
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
A little melodramatic,
but I get your point.
What Maynard would do is take Penn down, just as he can any other UFC LW. He would punish BJ from top and simply wear him out.
He did not get robbed
That term is overused.
The fight was close and there’s an argument for both sides to be made.
Please, let’s not resort to hyperbole.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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by Worldisart on Aug 20, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
This ^
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 20, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
This.
Although you couldn’t make an argument for 50-45.
Nick Garcia is the Brian Russell of MLS but 10 times worse.
Sure
But BJ Penn wasn’t robbed of the LW title.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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by Worldisart on Aug 20, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
ANNNNNNND-- This ^
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PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 20, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
its not lack of confindence
its reality…these are dominate pros. you will eventually lose the belt. Thats why the LHW belt switches fighters waist so much.
Why is it completely necessary for the #2 ranked fighter to get the next shot. We all know that styles make fights, maybe there is someone else you can put in there that stylisticly has a better shot.
Someone like… TAKANORI GOMI?
Ha, I kid.
"You hear people say, 'You're the greatest,' and all this stuff. It's BS. It's fake, it's all fake. You've just got to keep training as hard as you can. The only thing real is the fight, everything else is fake." - BJ Penn
Seriously though,
Give him a couple more tough fights, and see how he fares – it might not be out of the question…
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe."
- Frank Zappa
by grizzlyatoms on Aug 20, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
It has to be a good win
Like, Sotiro or loser of BJ/Frankie good.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Aug 20, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Jesus if that fight happens I will not be able to watch it in public. I’d just make a fool of myself.
"You hear people say, 'You're the greatest,' and all this stuff. It's BS. It's fake, it's all fake. You've just got to keep training as hard as you can. The only thing real is the fight, everything else is fake." - BJ Penn
Because it’s the entire essence of sport?
Can you imagine if other sports did that?
by BVandDietPepsi on Aug 20, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
No its not actually the No 1 teams play lower level teams in every other sport. They also lose to lower level teams.
Yea actually for the title in every tennis tournament MLB baseball anytime there is a track and field race, swimming, the list goes on and on.
Exactly.
Ugh.
No, no, no.
Have you ever watched sports?
A team like Alabama facing an option team like Navy would be fun to watch, but an Alabama team at 12-0 would never face a 6-6 Navy team. If an underdog faces a favorite, it’s because they’ve earned the right to face them, not because the “styles” would make it attractive.
by BVandDietPepsi on Aug 21, 2010 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions
If Strikeforce ran MLB
the Pirates would be in the World Series every year.
by Riney on Aug 20, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
it isnt necessary and hasnt been the case
Otherwise we wouldve had the oh so epic trilogies of GSP/Fitch and Silva/Hendo
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by Anthony Pace on Aug 20, 2010 3:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yah
He’s totally speaking out of turn. Even Dana says he’ll never tell a guy what weight class to fight in, and correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think he ever has. Zelasnik has no say in what class BJ or anyone else should fight in, nor should he. That is a decision for the fighters.
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe."
- Frank Zappa
He said Alves only has one more chance at welterweight recently.
So he does sometimes tell fighters when it’s reasonable.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
With Alves it’s way different, though. He only does it when fighters are just being retarded about their weight, like James Irvin.
"You hear people say, 'You're the greatest,' and all this stuff. It's BS. It's fake, it's all fake. You've just got to keep training as hard as you can. The only thing real is the fight, everything else is fake." - BJ Penn
exactly. Alves made weight for his title shot, and was only a half pound over. wasn’t ridiculous. plus he made the conscious decision to NOT cut after a year layoff.
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 20, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Alves is working with Dolce now
He should no longer have issues with his weight cutting.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 20, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
And my understanding of the Franklin thing was such that the UFC didn’t make him move up. They suggested it and he followed through so as to be accommodating.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Yeah
But I don’t think there was any party involved that didn’t agree with that.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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Not to mention
He’s got to protect his brand. If a fighter were to get fucked up after cutting such a ridiculous ammount of weight, the UFC could be seriously damaged by showing negligence in allowing the guy to fight.
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe."
- Frank Zappa
by grizzlyatoms on Aug 20, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd really like to see the KenFlo/BJ rematch
I feel like Florian abandoned his striking way to fast. He should have worked his Muay Thai a little, softened BJ’s core, and then look for the takedown at maybe the third or fourth round. That clinch against the cage stuff just proved he was ready for the title. I mean the mere fact that he called the fight “pop pop” proved he wasn’t ready.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Definitely a rematch worth seeing
KenFlo continues to show improvement in his game in every direction. And no matter what it’ll be a good fight with those two.
"You got to be a man to grow a moustache. Anybody can pay a couple of hundred bucks to get a tattoo. That don't mean nothing. I've had my moustache since I was two months old." ~ Don Frye
I thought Florian employed the wrong strategy
as well… by holding him on the cage and trying to ware BJ out.
He tried this when BJ’s cardio was in serious question.
Florian has proven that he is the best at lw to not hold the title currently in the ufc. (Providing he beats Maynard)
I don't understand what people think Kenny has demonstrated in the interim
Other than being a human yardstick for the skill gap between BJ and the rest of the people Kenny can fight at 155.
I’ve rewatched that fight a number of times, and Kenny is basically trying to win on theatrics: illusory “cage control,” trying to land rangy shots from the outside and run, trying really hard to get takedowns for points. If you think he gave up on his Muay Thai, it’s because his Muay Thai was gonna get him beat up.
(For crying out loud, Keith uses the code word “monkeywrench” specifically to instruct Kenny to attempt superman punches at the end of one round. Because they look cool and might influence the judges. Kenny tries like two of them in a row and nearly gets his block knocked off for his trouble. These are desperation tactics.)
I don’t believe there’s ANY indication that Kenny Florian has developed in such a way he’ll be a threat this time around.
You are using the fight against BJ to judge whether he has improved since the fight against BJ?
by brad23 on Aug 20, 2010 4:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
No, just to point out how massively outmatched he was the first time
What do you think murking Clay Guida and Takanori Gomi proves, exactly? I would have expected the same of Kenny before the BJ fight.
by LBo on Aug 20, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
BJ Penn vs.
Guillard
Soti (who i’d like to nickname Shorty Wop)
rematch with Florian
at WW… vs Alves. same height, and it would be an awesome striking matchup.
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
if aldo came to the ufc
the lightweight division would be crushed. aldo is a incredible fighter. he could easily hold the LW belt for a while
If they merged WEC and UFC...
I could see Aldo succeeding in being the first to hold two titles at once.
Also, it would give Penn another option for weight class to try out.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
BJ should stay put
Until he’s cleaned out the division. I mean c’mon – he’s not even the champion anymore, yet he’s 1 fight away from moving up in weight? This seems pretty fantastical to me. Florian, no matter what everyone says, would be tougher for BJ the second time around. I like his chances if he tries to make it a technical striking match, sticking and moving a’la Frankie and not try to be GSP-lite with the constant takedowns.
I also see Sotoropolis, Guillard and possible even Gomi giving Penn interesting fights. All that being said, I really want a Hughes vs. BJ 3, so if he moves up to WW for that reason I’m all for it.
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by hobbie on Aug 20, 2010 3:50 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
If Kenny beat Maynard, he would have victories over Guida, Gomi and Gray that’s about as impressive a 3 LW’s as anyone has fougth not alone beaten.
Kenny simply used the worst gameplan ever in that fight, if he were to fight like he has in all his other fights. Using his varied strikes and mixing things up he can beat BJ there is no question about it in my mind. The only question is he’s come up short on both his title fight, he can’t afford another loss in a title match or he’ll be done will that get to him or not.
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Guida and Gomi? LOL
Florian has yet to beat an elite LW. He is facing one in Boston. He has a chance to establish himself as something other than a spoon fed debutante. Lets see if he can break the pattern.
What?
If Gomi isn’t an “elite” (read: among the best in the world at) LW, the term has no meaning.
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by Derek Suboticki on Aug 20, 2010 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s one of the dumbest comments I can recall reading here.
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by Richard Wade on Aug 20, 2010 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions
The thing that makes this one of the dumbest comments of the year...
is that by way of mutual competition it pretty much discounts the competition that has been faced by any other top LW…like BJ Penn, for example.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
If there is a God, then yes
Win or lose, BJ has more than shown his superiority to the LW division. If he goes up to 170 for keeps, he would bring a ton of sizzle to that division to any card not featuring the champ.
BJ vs. Fitch? Yes please
BJ vs. Hughes? Yes please.
BJ vs. anyone? I’d buy that for a PPV
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by Snatchl on Aug 20, 2010 5:55 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
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