Why is DREAM getting a pass on not paying fighters?
by mattman73 on Aug 19, 2010 5:25 PM EDT
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PrintA few days ago a piece was posted about Bibiano Fernandes not getting paid by DREAM. The article struck me as odd and why I myself hadn't paid more attention to this pattern of behavior by DREAM. Here is a quote from that piece:
This is, unfortunately, not a shocking development when it comes to Dream. Last August, Nick Diaz' trainer and manager Cesar Gracie wrote that the promotion had yet to pay Diaz for a May bout against Katsuya Inoue. Gary Goodridge is still awaiting compensation for his New Year's Eve match with Gegard Mousasi, and Tatame adds that Ronaldo "Jacare" Souza wasn't paid for months following his 2009 fight with Jason Miller.
That can be found here: http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/8/17/1627143/bibiano-fernandes-says-dream-hasnt
The part that struck me is how the writer describes it as not a shocking development that something like that is happening when it comes to DREAM. That sentence hit me and I realized why am I still supporting a company that has show a pattern of this type of behavior. I sat there confused on why I myself had been overlooking how serious this is and giving DREAM a pass for that behavior. Not only giving them a pass but still supporting them even though they are repeatedly screwing fighters over.
I asked in the comments of the Bibiano Fernandes article about not doing anymore live event discussions for DREAM events because that is only supporting DREAM and their bullshit ways. My request was politely declined and I fully understand the position that was taken.
However I just can't seem to let this go because I'm seriously confused on why DREAM is getting a pass on this. Promotions that screw fighters out of money should not be supported. Hell they shouldn't be in the sport. I don't think that I'm the only one with that opinion either.
There's no place in the sport for promoters who don't live up to their contractual obligations to the fighters, regardless of how poorly their business venture fares. The promoters are the ones assuming the financial risk, the fighters are risking their lives and deserve to be paid.
That quote is from KID NATE here: http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/7/29/1594555/impact-fc-stiffs-fighters
At least I'm taking that quote to include all MMA promotions worldwide meaning DREAM doesn't get a pass.
KID NATE had it right on point in that quote. So I will no longer be supporting DREAM.
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no more like it's hardly worth bothering with knocking DREAM
we covered their lack of payment news and will continue to cover it if they make any announcements or more news breaks.
I’ve been an outspoken critic of DREAM since their formation but haven’t covered them much lately because frankly they’re not doing much. only so many hours in the day.
but we don’t editorialize via boycott. we cover the sport.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Are you standing by this statement?
There’s no place in the sport for promoters who don’t live up to their contractual obligations to the fighters, regardless of how poorly their business venture fares. The promoters are the ones assuming the financial risk, the fighters are risking their lives and deserve to be paid.
Are you giving DREAM a pass on that statement or does that statement also apply to DREAM?
Just BE.
he has stood by that statement. he has written about Dream not paying fighters and directed plenty of vitriol their way. he’s a blogger, he’s written blog articles about how Dream is fucking up; what else do you want him to do? what does he have to do to stand by that statement in you eyes?
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Aug 19, 2010 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Also I realize the asking to not do live discussions on BE was not reasonable. I fully understand the need for BE to cover the sport and if that includes BE doing live discussion on DREAM events so be it.
However at the same time I won’t be supporting those discussions as a fan because I see it as still supporting DREAM’s nefarious business practices of not paying fighters. Because like you said those types of promoters shouldn’t be in the sport.
Just BE.
Join the European Night Crew nothing but UFC and Strikeforce.
by MattParker117 on Aug 19, 2010 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
FEGs problem – and thus Dream’s – is that their revenue has plummeted. The reason why from NOB:
* Due to the K-1 tax evasion in the past (which caused K-1 godfather Ishii to go to jail) additional tax has to be paid.
- The PRIDE Yakuza/Fuji TV scandal and the Akiyama greasing event lost them sponsors.
- Fight purses increasing.
- Decreased money from TV channels (last year it was down 30-50%).
etc.
Dave Walsh has a some write ups at HKL as well.
Still it is unforgivable not to pay your employees. Especially those that risk their health for you. I hope that Puji money comes in and helps turn things around, but if not then while I will mourn the loss of top Japanese MMA I won’t miss these shenanigans.
I don’t know what the hang up is with the PUJI money.
I got mine almost immediately.
by Steve4192 on Aug 20, 2010 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
Bueno.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 20, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Japanese MMA is shady and screws over non-Japanese fighters?
No way.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Aug 19, 2010 8:17 PM EDT reply actions
Because their event posters are pretty damn cool looking.
a kitten dies every time you compare an individual sport to a team sport.
by Marvin Malehooves on Aug 20, 2010 7:06 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What do you even mean by “getting passes”? Just about everyone agrees it’s pretty damn shitty what Dream is doing (except Jonathan Snowden for some reason trying to play Devil’s Advocate but that’s par for the course for him). If you mean why are we still discussing their live events and giving them other coverage that isn’t necessarily negative without constantly bemoaning their lack of payments? Because they do other things that are newsworthy too.
Anyway I’m actually kind of curious whether or not their lack of payments to Bibiano Fernandes invalidates his contract, allowing him to go anywhere. It’s almost unbelievable that they wouldn’t pay their FW champion. Maybe they wanted him gone? Maybe they really are that disorganized? Maybe they really are that stupid?
They reportedly still haven’t paid Giorgio Petrosyan either for winning the K-1 MAX WGP title last year, which is arguably an even higher achievement than the DREAM FW champ. K-1 is their money maker, and the top-level fighters are of course very important for their big year end WGP finals. There’s a big possibility Petrosyan won’t participate this year because of that.. sad stuff.
by Horselover Fat on Aug 21, 2010 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions
NOB is reporting that they are screwing over Japanese fighters now as well.
DREAM is going to go belly up within a year. The only time FEG makes any money off MMA is on their NYE Dynamite shows. I would not be at all surprised to see FEG scrap DREAM in order to concentrate on their core kickboxing business and just run one annual NYE MMA card under the Dynamite brand.
It's accepted that Japanese MMA is shady
It’s been that way for many years now. It’s the same reason they get a pass for not testing fighters for drugs, for not honoring athletic suspensions, etc. It’s just the way JMMA is.
If we were talking about an American promotion, people would be up in arms but the Japanese are just shady.
When are people going to stop accepting it and stop supporting it? It’s not going to change if people keep supporting it the way it is.
Just BE.
Stop supporting it in what way?
Unless BE has a much larger Japanese audience than I’m aware of, there is little any of us can do to influence the actions of Dream. They care about the opinions of the Japanese audience and the Japanese media.
This isn’t about just the BE audience. It’s about all MMA fans that care about the fighters. Why are MMA fans supporting an organization that has shown a pattern of shady behavior including not paying fighters?
So what if all DREAM cares about is the opinions of the Japanese audience and the Japanese media? Does that somehow make it ok to give them a pass and still support their bullshit ways if you aren’t in Japan then? I don’t get that.
I think DREAM does care about outside opinion but even if they don’t that isn’t a reason to do nothing. It’s definitely not a reason to ignore their shady bullshit and to keep watching and supporting their product.
Just BE.
It doesn’t matter if Americans stop watching DREAM as far as their future is concerned. So what alternative “support” is there that people are giving? All those crazy huge sales of DREAM merch on our shores?
by VirtualBalboa on Aug 19, 2010 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Again, in what way are we supporting?
I don’t think they live and die by the HDNet ratings or the number of views they get on youtube the next day. I assume you live in the US, as I do. Whether we watch Dream or not, does not matter. It does not influence them or the way they do business, nor do blog posts on american websites.
The reason I bring up the Japanese audience is because it is their viewing habits that determine the success of Dream and it is their opinions (and the opinions of the Japanese media) that influence Dream’s business practices. That’s why the Japanese fighters get paid immediately. If the Japanese stop watching, Dream dies but as long as they are happy with the product(not that they are, but that has nothing to do with this), Dream will be fine.
I totally agree with you that it’s not right that they don’t pay their fighters but unless you intend on rallying the people of Japan into in boycott, there’s not much you can do about it.
I wish I knew how to rallying the people of Japan to do something about this. Unfortunately I don’t know how. Apparently I don’t even know how to rallying the people around here.
Believe me I get where you are coming from. I felt the same way till a couple days ago. Then like I said above reading that piece on Bibiano Fernandes not getting paid and the writer describes it as not a shocking development that something like that is happening when it comes to DREAM. It hit me and struck a nerve. Why the hell have I still been watching their shows and supporting them? It didn’t make any sense to me. I sat there thinking about it in my head running through things. At first I was like I’m supporting the other fighters that fight there. But I came to the conclusion that was flawed thinking because that was giving them a pass on not paying the fighters that they aren’t paying. If this was an American MMA promotion and only paying half the fighters on any given card there is no way I would support them. Hell I don’t think a promotion could get by with that here. They may get a second chance if they come up with a good reason and eventually make good but after that there is no way it becomes accepted and becomes a pattern like with DREAM.
Like you said with DREAM that it’s become accepted with them. Why though? I wouldn’t accept it here and I’m guessing you wouldn’t accept it here. So at what point do we stop accepting it from DREAM?
So no offense because I was giving them a pass on this up until a few days ago but I see your response as still giving them a pass. It doesn’t matter how little watching DREAM on HD Net effects the situation. By watching it your still accepting their shady business practice and supporting them. You are accepting it giving them a pass and still supporting them by watching their shows on HD Net.
So let me ask you at what point do you stop supporting them? Will it take them putting on a card where nobody gets paid? Will it take two cards in a row where nobody gets paid? At what point will you stop giving them a pass and stop supporting and stop watching their product?
The point for me was just how I described above.
Just BE.
You stop watching and see how long it takes for them to start paying fighters
I agree with you in principle, I just don’t see what me not watching the shows on HDNet(I actually don’t get HDNet, but for the sake of the argument) will accomplish. It might make me feel a little better about myself for not supporting them but it won’t solve the problem.
I’d be very interested in knowing how much the amount of HDNet viewers matters to Dream. If HDNet were to decide to stop airing Dream events, how would that effect Dream? Anyone know?
If we stop watching, they'll die.
Or, barring that, we won’t be supporting/funding assholes that don’t pay fighters. The degree to which that makes you feel better about yourself, I suppose, is subjective.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 21, 2010 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions
If we watch, they’re probably gonna die anyways. Their advertisers are not looking to the American market to sell goods because they are not here. You might as well be petitioning people to cease buying Cuban produce or something.
by VirtualBalboa on Aug 21, 2010 2:28 AM EDT up reply actions
So glad you brought that up!
See, there’s an embargo against most products exported by tyrannical regimes – so that, even if they could squeeze a few more bucks out of negligent/selfish/ignorant Americans, they can’t! And in the absence of an embargo, encouraging a boycott seems to make sense, ja?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 21, 2010 3:57 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s not the point. The fact that there is an embargo makes such a boycott without purpose.
You’re equating viewing with support. Not that I’m surprised you feel that way, but its silly.
by VirtualBalboa on Aug 21, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
But not the biggest...almost every cheap, plastic anything comes from China
See, there’s an embargo against most products exported by tyrannical regimes – so that, even if they could squeeze a few more bucks out of negligent/selfish/ignorant Americans, they can’t! And in the absence of an embargo, encouraging a boycott seems to make sense, ja?
It’s nearly impossible to boycott everything made in china, and they are way worse than Cuba.
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
It depends on how much the HDNet deal matters to them
And supporting assholes through my viewing habits doesn’t weigh too heavy on my conscious, I’ve watched boxing for years. Don King has some of my money in his bank account, I can’t sink any lower.
Um
Their HDNet deal is probably a pittance compared to what they get from the Tokyo Broadcasting System. So no, English-language viewers aren’t going to significantly affect their bottom line.
It probably is
That’s what I’ve been arguing, I just don’t know enough about the situation to say that for certain.
This talk about taking a moral stand is nice, but it is meaningless. That is clear and obvious. The remark about reaching out to the Japanese people to stop watching is hilarious to me – the reason DREAM doesn’t pay fighters is because they have no money. They have no money because no one in Japan watches them or follows Japanese MMA.
This whole charade looks like you’re looking to take a moral high ground for the purpose of telling people on the internet that they are bad and in some way co-conspirators in some lousy, near collapse promotion’s poor practices. It sounds ridiculous.
by VirtualBalboa on Aug 20, 2010 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions
When writing the FanPost I felt like I was pulling some Shane Carwin high ground hogwash but I felt strongly about this topic. Hell I was way over the top with my first comments about this in the Bibiano piece. I originally asked about stopping the DREAM live event discussions. Now that was out there but like I described above when it hit me it struck a nerve.
But if it made anyone take a closer look at supporting any organization or sponsor that has shown the type of behavior that DREAM has in not paying fighters then I’m way more than willing to accept that criticism and have this all be called ridiculous.
Just BE.
Well, it strikes a nerve because you are basically telling people who watch DREAM that they are bad people for “supporting” DREAM. Ultimately whatever support you deem exists for watching HDNet is meaningless in the greater sense of what it means to DREAM’s future. Casting aspersions on people for engaging in a meaningless act is the sort of thing either idiocy or trolling on the internet is made of. Which one this is, I’m not sure.
by VirtualBalboa on Aug 21, 2010 2:27 AM EDT up reply actions
This is neither
It’s a genuine attempt to question how MMA fans, always so vocal about how the fighters get screwed all the time, can in good conscience keep patronizing (and by watching that’s what you’re doing) shady piece of shit organizations that screw fighters.
Your inability to distinguish it as such (which I’m guessing is just a “hey fuck you, I’m going to keep watching DREAM and I’m not a hypocrite” kind of thing) doesn’t mean it’s stupid or trolling.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 21, 2010 3:59 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Viewing is not patronizing. Even if so, the support lent is minuscule and meaningless. Taking a moral stance over something meaningless is stupid. End.
by VirtualBalboa on Aug 21, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Viewing is not patronizing.
That’s just idiotic. Also, Lent was earlier this year.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 21, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
There is no personal financial support being given. In the case of DREAM, they aren’t on HDNet because of overwhelming demand from the American public. The live broadcast tomorrow of Sengoku isn’t the result of the market. These things exist in spite of the market. Whether or not anyone views, DREAM is in the same financial trouble and just as likely to screw over fighters. There is no connection there.
by VirtualBalboa on Aug 21, 2010 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions
OR................
Maybe the fighters should, from here forward, handle their business by demanding payment up front or not fighting for them at all. That way we can use our Keyboard Rage for more productive things like harassing Shane carwin.
OR we can wait for smoogy to let us know why JMMA is still the bestest
by RoB_ex on Aug 20, 2010 12:27 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Some of you think I'm exaggerating
But this is a perfect example of how little even the hardcore North American (mostly) MMA fan is invested in what’s going on in Japan. Perhaps I’m viewing it selectively, but the numbers on this site, my show and wherever else I can gauge it’s presence all seem awfully low. Interest in select Japanese events or fighters or what have you can still get high. But that’s occasional and increasingly rare. DREAM “declared war on the UFC” and it got a measly two days of headlines. That’s it. And no one’s given a shit since. When Mirko debuted in DREAM 1, do you honestly believe open declaration of war wouldn’t have meant at least a little bit more? I think so. I think this is just another reminder of low Japan’s MMA stock currently is. You have every right to be outraged, but people can barely muster the energy. That says quite a bit.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
by Luke Thomas on Aug 20, 2010 1:01 AM EDT reply actions 5 recs
I feel you.
Trust me on that.
Head Kick Legend
Twitter @HeadKickLegend
I'll also add from something I'm seeing as a common retort in the comments
I don’t think it’s getting much, if any actual support from US fans. Very few people watch it overall on HDnet, and hardly anyone buys any merch, etc. Hardcore fans like us saying we’ll watch it isn’t exactly the same as helping to keep it afloat.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Aug 20, 2010 2:03 AM EDT reply actions
I'm sure SF, WEC/UFC would love to grab some of their unhappy fighters
If I were one of the figthers who got stiffed on a payment, I’d file suit for breach of contract and try to get out of Japan and into a US promotion. If a US promotion gets Aoki/Kawajiri/Sakjurai/Sakuraba/Gono they could probably expect a bump in PPVs from Japanese fans, right?
I watch Dream, because the fights are good, and it’s free on HDNet. It is my understanding that Japanese fans get most of their MMA free on TV, or the just see it live at the event. The little I know about the Japanese mma scene outside the ring/cage comes from Snowden’s book. If they are too shady to pay fighters up front, via escrow account, the fighters should boycott. With the larger venues and bigger live gates, there is no reason the promoters can’t afford to do this
It’s easier said than done, but if the only thing keeping many them in Japan was the better payday, it would appear that motivation is going to be gone fairly soon.
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
Japanese fans don’t do PPVs. The UFC is mostly aired on a somewhat obscure satellite channel their, although the UFC lately has been clustering their Japanese fighters together on the same cards so they can get coverage on the Tokyo Broadcasting Network in a one-hour shortened version of their Versus shows in primetime there.
If they added five top Japanese fighters like that, they could get more mainstream coverage in Japan meaning they could either run a live event there or they could get more regular TBS specials there, and maybe a regular network deal there.
Japan is kind of destined to be a secondary source of income for the UFC though because of the way the PPV model just doesn’t work there.
speaking of japanese fighters...
i would love to see sakuraba sign a contract with the ufc for a fight or two, just so that they can induct him into the UFC hall of fame…the guy is an MMA legend and i see the UFC hall of fame as the rock n roll hall of fame for MMA. i know he only fought once for the UFC in the past but i feel that if he signed for a fight or two and then announced his retirement zuffa would honnor what he has done for the sport….
Gracie Hunter for 2011 HOF!!!!
freedomwatchonfox.com lp.org
Sakuraba was already in the UFC and won a tournament.
If the UFC wants to induct him, I’m sure they will.
well i think we all know the UFC only inducts fighters that they want to..so as long as sakuraba is competing and for a rival company it wont happen….
hence the, he should sign with the ufc for a fight or two and then retire in the octagon :)
freedomwatchonfox.com lp.org
I would not be at all surprised if Zuffa inducts him after he retires. Dana & the Fajitas were closet Pride fanboys back in the day. I’m sure they all have a ton of respect for Sakuraba.
That would be awesome and I’ll probably give them shit if they don’t upon Sakuraba’s retirement in 2028.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 21, 2010 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions
What the first guy said.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 20, 2010 5:03 PM EDT reply actions
By the way....
I’m gonna guess that the “$200 million” cash infusion or whatever was a gross exaggeration. Japanese entertainment moguls tend to make a lot of blusterous exaggerations and claims that veer into the ridiculous even by Hollywood standards, but when someone puts a concrete cash figure in there you tend to take it at face value. Maybe the deal was up to some $200 million in earnings potential or something and that’s where the misleading claim came from but it certainly wasn’t a liquid infusion of $200 million or anywhere close to that if they can’t (or won’t) pay fighters who were making $20,000 or less.
The $200 million was PUJI’s estimate of how much investment capital they would be able to raise. PUJI is not in the business of investing their own money. They are in the business of matching venture capitalists up with companies in need of a cash infusion. The jury is still out on whether PUJI will have any luck finding investors for FEG, but their window for finding them is rapidly closing.
Really...
how many Americans pay to watch Dream? Order their merchandise? Hell even watch on HDNet?
I’m not saying that I would ever illegally watch a fight (nono f course not) but Japanese MMa has ZERO protection of its copyrights in America. You can stream the fights live anywhere, and if you wait about 30 minutes the video feed is on Google Videos, and if you wait 6 hours the videos of the fights are on every major MMA site!
The money that comes into Dream from the US is miniscule at best. Theres really nothing we CAN do besdies not watch HDNet’s broadcasts
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