Chael Sonnen and Shane Carwin Took Opposite Paths in Promoting Their UFC Title Challenges Against Anderson Silva and Brock Lesnar
by Kid Nate on Aug 17, 2010 12:39 PM EDT
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Yesterday's news that Chael Sonnen got $35,000 for his efforts at UFC 117 didn't surprise me, but Geno Mrosko made a good point at Cage Side Seats:
The total fighter salaries have been released for the participants of UFC 117 and the first thing that pops out at me is how much base salary Chael Sonnen made for his fight with Anderson Silva. For everything he did to sell this PPV and for how many buys it ended up doing he should have been paid more. I don't want to hear about locker room bonuses either because those may or may not exist depending on who you ask.
Sonnen's coach Matt Lindland addressed this on the Ring Psychology podcast and commented that he personally probably wouldn't have put so much effort into promoting a Pay Per View in which he had no financial participation but that, "Chael's just a company man."
He certainly is and I have to believe that Dana White and the UFC brass will amply reward Sonnen's performance at UFC 117 going forward.
Contrast this with UFC 116's heavyweight title challenger Shane Carwin. First he announced on twitter that he wouldn't be doing any media to promote the fight, then his management shopped a story to Bloody Elbow explaining that Carwin's stand had to do with his lack of a % of the PPV buys. They quickly back-tracked when Zuffa got pissed off and revised their no-media stand to "no media other than what the UFC requires". But even then, Carwin did a very unenthusiastic job of selling the fight. See his sullen and lethargic performance on ESPN SportsCenter.
Regardless of his motivations and the media politics of it all, the net effect was that Shane Carwin did the absolute bare minimum to sell his fight with Brock Lesnar at UFC 116. The contrast with Chael Sonnen couldn't be bigger.
Sonnen took the long view and was willing to risk being burned if his self-promotion back-fired. Now he stands to be in the UFC's good graces for the rest of his career. Carwin, not so much.
Sure Dana White is apparently being supportive of Carwin -- or so Carwin's manager tweets -- while the steroid lynch mob gathers outside his castle with torches and pitchforks, but I have to think in the long run that Dana White would rather push Chael Sonnen for a second UFC title shot than Shane Carwin.
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See his sullen and lethargic performance on ESPN SportsCenter.
Definitely an accurate description but this comment has the aroma of a subtle jab. Touché!
It's actually a hellacious haymaker...
…mixed with lots of lactic acidosis.
I think part of it comes down to personality
Shane Carwin just comes off as a wet towel. He’s that dude that has nothing of substance to offer. I’m basing this strictly on his tweets, his interviews, and his posts on the UG. Just lacks charisma and totally boring. His complete non sell of the his fight with Lesnar is a joke and complaining about the lack of ppv% is ridiculous when you can’t hype a fight.
Sonnen has personality and charisma you can’t teach. He’ll be a headliner for a while and my guess is that Zuffa wishes they put him in the TUF USA/UK because of his personality. I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets a TUF coaching job in the near future as a reward for his work.
Follow me on twitter @thisredengine
Also please check out SBnation's Red Bulls blog @ www.onceametro.com
Oh man
The back and forth between Chael and Bisping would have rivaled Rampage and Rashad. Good call!
I'm honestly hoping this happens
TUF 13 Chael vs. Bisping
You can sell it however you want. Bisping was a great coach and rallied the UK fighters and Chael is the man who took Anderson to the limit. Winner gets a title shot.
Follow me on twitter @thisredengine
Also please check out SBnation's Red Bulls blog @ www.onceametro.com
by Matthew Roth on Aug 17, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Both are also proud representatives of their respective countries.
The banter would be absolutely legendary and I think it would have a trickledown affect amongst the fighters, making the storyline of the battle between two countries even sweeter. Callin’ it now, if Bisping and Sonnen were to be coaches on the next season of TUF, it would be the most heralded season yet (as far as entertainment is concerned).
I agree that it would be the most heralded season yet
But Zuffa/Dana will always say this is the best season ever. But give them 6 months to talk shit on twitter before filming? You’d have people tuning in to see what’ll happen. Drama sells and unfortunately the UFC doesn’t have much else that I’m aware of they’ll be able to sell for TUF.
Follow me on twitter @thisredengine
Also please check out SBnation's Red Bulls blog @ www.onceametro.com
by Matthew Roth on Aug 17, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Bisping is not the can some make him out to be, but iIts not as if he has the slighest chance of beating Sonnen, other than via DQ or bizarre injury.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 17, 2010 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I wasn't a big Chael fan really...
But somewhere during the lead-up I became impressed with his funnyness (leave out the racism would be better though) and his enthusiasm for selling what would have otherwise been an expected ho-hum match-up. Single handed, super promotion. Hats off.
But then, he goes and hammers Anderson (who I was supporting) for 4.5 rounds before getting submitted. Kind of vindicated most of what he said (if you don’t READ what he said in detail… if you get my meaning).
I reckon a lot of fighters could learn from this. It doesn’t matter that he may not have a contracted PPV % or that his current deal only gave him a low base pay. This is EXACTLY the kind of behaviour that brings eyeballs, and ultimately, financial rewards (via locker room on-the-spot, headline spots in future, rematches or at least interesting match-ups, etc). Whether it brings the sport into disrepute and likens it to WWE is another story…
I may not agree with everything Chael said, but you can count me as overall impressed with his efforts and performance…
Chael Sonnen, over the course of his last four fights, made himself a hell of a thing.
I’ll bet you that if he’s not already on a recently renewed Tapout deal, they are not looking forward to renegotiating it.
Really, there’s not much a difference between Mike Pierce and Jake Ellenberger if somebody wants to slap a MusclePharm logo on their crotch. Fighters are, in a cold business sense, commodities. They are interchangeable as long as they are or are perceived to be of of similar quality.
Chael has made sure he will never be a commodity again. He is a unique being in MMA, and even if the UFC didn’t reward him behind the scenes for this fight, his value has skyrocketed. He can do paid club appearances now as Chael Sonnen, not “UFC Middleweight.” And y’all would be surprised what random clubs in Vegas will pay for a name fighter.
That’s what Shane Carwin doesn’t understand. Sure, he should have talked with the UFC about his pay and trying to get a bit more of the pie. But he also should have realized that by selling a fight well, you elevate yourself into new earning opportunities. But instead of becoming “Shane Carwin” he remained “Former UFC Interim Champion.” He is now at best interchangeable with Mir, Big Nog, and Sylvia. Silly decisions.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Aug 17, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Who would have thought?!
These guys can make some good money if they handle things right. Have your manager call a club and ask if they are interested in an appearance. A guy like Sonnen could probably make 15k to sit at a table and sip on orange juice (doesn’t seem like a drinker to me) for a few hours. 15k just because you have showed some personality and got people interested. For those who don’t conceptualize money well, he would earn a fucking jet ski in one night, doing nothing but putting up with bad music and some fans.
Carwin either doesn’t know or doesn’t care about that. Either way is silly, since he could double his engineering pay if he knew the game.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I think Carwins outlook is influenced by the fact he's got a great regular job.
So he’s not as motivated to push the publicity angle. Sonnen impresses me to be the hungrier of the two. Period. He’s more motivated by his own personality type. Look at his record. He’s got a few losses there but his attitude has had to be one of being hungrier to succeed regardless. I’m a fan of both but some times that undefeated thing can screw you as well.
That's the thing though, Carwin talks about being responsible and taking care of his family.
Sitting in a club for one night on a weekend would earn him 10-20k, easily, if he worked just the slightest bit for it. Or, rather, if his manager worked for it. He’s too busy with the SEC though.
Back on topic, Carwin made 40k for his last fight in UFC pay. Thats for months of training and preparation. Do you know what tuition for a good private college runs? About 20k per semester if you don’t have a scholarship. He has two kids. Say each of them wants to go to Reed and doesn’t qualify for a scholarship or financial aid. He’s gonna need to drop 320k out of pocket. So, assuming Shane banks all 40k of that fight money, he can get 1/8th of the way to paying for his kids college.
But if his manager showed up for him and had him do an appearance once a month at different clubs for 10k each, he’d earn 120k extra a year out of his narrow earning window of celebrity. He has probably two years to do this. 240k in just appearances. That’s a lot of money that you don’t need in student loans anymore. Add in two over two years at 40k per and he’s at 320k. His kids no longer need student loans and can pursue higher education with ease.
But no, Shane is a responsible family man. I’m sure it makes more sense for him to teach his kids a valuable lesson about being in debt for student loans than to capitalize on your narrow earning potential. Or he simply doesn’t know this is an option, which is his managers fault… who he publicly defends. So it’s still his fault.
I don’t know if Sonnen is going to go that route and capitalize on his fame that way. But he at least has the option, and can do it way effing better. That’s the real story of this article. If all things remain constant with relations to the UFC, Sonnen greatly helped himself financially. Carwin stood on a plateau and did nothing.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
The gist of this post
“Carwin doesn’t hang out in random clubs, therefore he doesn’t love his children.”
Seriously dude, I’m sure a lot of fighters don’t go that route really but it’s not like they should have to or we should criticize them for not doing it. If they want the money they’ll take it, if not no big whoop.
Matt Hughes has some serious "mentally challenged" strength applying a choke to Ricardo Almeida’s neck strong enough to squeeze a turd out of his other end.
Carwin complained about money.
Then he did the exact opposite of making himself money. He wasn’t proactive about increasing his income, he just said “You don’t wanna pay me more then I’m already contracted then fine, I won’t do anything more than I’m contracted to do.” That was a stupid decision. I’ll admit I was being a little obnoxious bringing up his kids and college funds, but if he wants to be a goodie two shoes hard workin’ blue collar family man then I think the funds necessary to raise a child are worth mentioning. I’m sure he loves his kids very much and is probably saving for their college tuition already. But he’s letting a quarter of a million dollars slip away. Money that could pay for them to go to school anywhere they want without financial aid or student loans. And that money is slipping away because the UFC wasn’t paying him to do promo work.
Guess what, Shane? You’re a brand too. Build your brand and capitalize on it. Use the platform you’ve been given to make your own money and don’t count on a raise that, while you might feel like you deserve, you haven’t earned within your contract.
That’s the difference between Shane and Chael. Either one of them has the talent to sit at a table, talk to friends, and have a free drink or two while making five figures. You don’t even need to speak English well to get these offers. But people do need to be interested in seeing you there, and that’s where Shane flopped. He’s not a good brand, he’s not a good marketer, and he’s not good at maximizing his earnings.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
"I’ll admit I was being a little obnoxious bringing up his kids and college funds"
Phew, it’s a good thing you did cause I thought I was being obnoxious in the way I brought up that you brought it up.
But yes, If he’s bitching about his earnings but not maximizing his potential then he should either get busy living or get busy shutting the hell up about it.
Matt Hughes has some serious "mentally challenged" strength applying a choke to Ricardo Almeida’s neck strong enough to squeeze a turd out of his other end.
I've heard a lot about his regular job netting him a good steady income.
Doing that will put some ankle biters through school. Not to mention if they do the wrestling gig like the old man, the scholarships will come. Dads making the bank anyway. Being a smart guy, he’ll maximize his kids chances of getting an education. Maybe touring around doesn’t fit into his work schedule. wtf.
I still think Carwins K.O. power will get him his props.
With or without the appearances, which I agree would help, his highlight reel of smashing people is his golden key. After his title fight, he’s going to be a name until he gets his ass kicked (bad) against somebody else. Like gasses again, or gets k.o.d himself. Or badly submitted.
Sonnen will need to keep holding press conferences to hype stuff because he doesn’t knock guys silly. He still beats their ass for a whole fight, just not the wonderful knock outs that Carwin can produce.
You don’t have to do clubs to get appearance fees. Hell Shance Carwin can do an appearance or two at grocery stores and earn money in a similar manner. Doing appearances is the issue not where the appearances are located at.
I really shouldn’t have advised him to not promote the fight if they didn’t pay him more. i go to eat crow on that advice,
And you should note that not every fighter can get $15 k for a club appearance. That only a select few have reached the level of celebrity to get that kind of appearance fee.
And that merely being a showman isn’t going to put you over. Hell, no one tries harder than Seth Petruzelli, Tom Lawler and Tim Credeur and very few care.
Good job on coming forward on that advise, shortsightedness happens to all of us.
I agree that not every fighter can get 15k on a club appearance, but based on dealings I’ve had with this exact thing, that’s a reasonable number for Carwin to pull. Maybe 10k is more likely but with a decent manager (cough cough) he could get some solid paydays. Minus the unseemly lactic acidosis and defense of cardio statements he made, he was still a hell of a draw immediately following the Brock loss. Good enough to draw five figures per appearance, easy. Might have been able to pull the same after the Mir win. After this steroid thing and all the flack he’s taken, it seems less and less likely that he can capitalize on that. People don’t hate him enough to get paid, they just don’t care anymore.
Chael is a character now. Go to a local printer and get a big vinyl I Believe in Chael Sonnen poster for $200, hang it behind a table he sits at, and you’ve got a serious crowd on your hands. Tao or XS wouldn’t want it (they care about real celebrities), but there are a billion other clubs that could take him in Vegas and can afford to. And that’s where it pays off, regardless of what the UFC says or does. The fact is that CHAEL SONNEN ( R) draws now, while Shane needs “Former UFC Interim Heavyweight Champion; Shane Carwin” to draw in an appearance. That’s five words before you even get to who it is, and shows the weakness of his personal brand.
The end point is that Carwin needs to UFC to be remembered or noticed now. Chael Sonnen gets a huge boost from it, but can get booked on ESPN again just because he’s such a curious character.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
That’s the thing, Chael has been doing this forever. He did this against Fihlo. He claimed the fight against Maia would be between the two best Middleweights in the world. But these were all on a much smaller stage. When he got the press attention, and a headlining role, he milked it for all he could. And now he is benefiting big time. Dude’s a star.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
In business terms Carwin wouldn’t do the extra work unless they gave him a raise and a promotion and Sonnen went out and worked his ass off to prove that he deserved a raise and a promotion. I’m sure both guys got “taken care of” but Sonnen has established himself as a real draw and an asset to the company where as Carwin is just another fighter. Sonnen showed he can sell a fight, Carwin didn’t even try.
I think Chael's hyperbole
Will eventually be his downfall. It is only a matter of time before Chael is only known for the Trash Talk itself, followed by his opponent getting their arm raised.
Phil Baroni is a great talker to, but, relevance is winning.
by Dr. Leo Marvin on Aug 17, 2010 12:30 PM EDT reply actions
Say what you will about Chael
but in the eyes of a boss (dana) hes a perfect employee.
He doesn’t complain about his pay check. He puts in extra work you didnt ask him to do and overall he makes you more money.
So what we should take from this article
is that Sonnen is awesome and Carwin sucks.
Message received.
...like young thieves in a glowing orchard, loosely jacketed against the cold and ten thousand worlds for the choosing.
- C. McCarthy
One point missing...
Is Chael had to go out to promote the hell out of this fight because of Anderson’s past fights and the fact that he is not a draw. No one was interested in this fight before Chael became the King of Trash Talk.
Carwin on the other hand had Brock who is going to draw huge numbers against anybody. Folks were already excited about Carwin/Lesnar fighting without all the extrae media blitz because of thier size and past performance in the cage.
Also, Brock is Dana’s golden goose, Anderson not so much, so of course he would be quicker to give Chael a rematch before giving Carwin a rematch
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
Perhaps you're right about the golden goose/rematch comment...
But there are at least three other factors:
1) There are more viable contenders waiting for a shot at Brock
2) Chael mauled Anderson for 4.5 rounds before getting submitted. On face value (I know Carwin dropped heavier bombs over 1 round) that’s a closer result and thus more deserving of a rematch
3) Chael/SIlva is being demanded by the fans, whereas Carwin/Brock we can mostly wait for, until after Cain and JDS get a shot. I think if Carwin had won 4.5 rounds then got submitted, however, the fans would be very keen for a quick rematch. Although even fan demand might not get him the match due to point (1).
Knowing the way Dana is, and knowing about other bonuses he has given like Shogun's at 104,
I’m gonna bet that Dana has compensated Chael generously for making UFC 117 what it was.
I’ve heard from Machida’s people about a crazy bonus for the Tito fight. Now Dana’s dislike for Tito probably added to the figure but if normal under the table bonuses are even half the number quoted then the guys who make Dana happy are doing really really really well.
" Real talk - A gorilla would shit kick Brock." – ElliotMatheny
Knowing the way Dana is?
So you know Dana personally? Or you mean you know the Dana that is presented to the media? We’ll know Chael got more money when he says he did, not because of these phantom locker room bonuses that no one can seem to confirm.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
CagesideSeats.com
by Geno Mrosko on Aug 17, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sonnen now has a strong position to renegotiate his deal
The buzz at the moment is for an immediate rematch, and how it could eclipse their first fight since Sonnen backed up 99% of his talk.
Belfort has been out of the UFC for too long, and his match with Franklin was eclipsed by the return of Mayweather that same weekend iirc. UFC shouldn’t be banking on their audience remembering who Belfort was as a means of promotion, especially when in 2010 Sonnen has proven to be by far the more bankable of the two.
sonnen vs belfort makes sense to me
andersons gonna be out and chael wants to come right back, vitors tailor made for sonnen to beat him either guy is a compelling fight for andersons return
its a win win
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
I really doubt Sonnen was playing salesman
Hindsight is always 20/20 and we can call his schtick kayfabe or whatever, but based on what he said in the leadup to the fight, his comments seemed more about wanting to prove a point by beating up a guy that “didn’t belong in his hood and danced in front of demons” rather than a sales pitch.
This wasn’t a sale, his talk seemed like something more sinister.
His tone doesn’t make me believe the whole pro-wrestling spin put on his antics.
What it comes down to is the differences in two individuals. One wanted attention, the other wanted little or none of it. The fact that people wanted to buy a fight because of one, is purely incidental. For Sonnen, salesmanship this wasn’t. It was something much darker.
^^^^ Kids, if you look at the exhibit on the right, you'll see what is referred to as a mark.
What were these “sinister” motives?
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
by Worldisart on Aug 17, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
First off, where did you see any reference or mention of “motives”?
I’m just saying that invoking racist thought and xenophobia isn’t required for promotion. There are other ways to do that. See Toney, James.
The fact that Sonnen resorted to those tactics points to something messed up that goes beyond trying to sell a fight.
He really has you hook, line and sinker. Take Nate’s advice, don’t be a mark.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
That's bullshit
That’s not being a mark to say Chael said some fucked up things. He had more than enough shit talking to disrespect Brazil, Brazilians and the language.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 17, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
What's being a mark
Is that Cyke believes Chael is being sincere.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
I agree
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 17, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
oh i don't doubt that some of the awful things Sonnen
said reflect his beliefs, but he was also clearly playing them up for dramatic effect. even the lying on the record and denying it when you’re caught red handed thing is an old ric flair bit. the guy trained with rowdy roddy piper. don’t be a mark.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I think there are quite a few marks
around here that seem to believe so much in Dana just handing out money in the back to fighters in the form of locker room bonuses. Apparently Dana likes a guy or what he does in the Octagon and just throws him money. All because he said so? As long as it isn’t confirmed then we shouldn’t believe it. The fact that so many are so quick to believe a promoter is beyond me.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
CagesideSeats.com
by Geno Mrosko on Aug 17, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm sure it happens,
And he is probably pretty extravagent about it at times, but I don’t think it happens nearly as often as people imagine – it is just a good motivating carrot and he probably does it just often and enough to keep it credible.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 17, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not sure how much of it was to hype the fight
And how much was trying to get in Anderson’s head with the purpose of getting him to engage right away and look for the KO instead of fighting his usual smart fight…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 17, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Promoting the Main Event Fight -a short essay rant by VEe is Animated (and a curmudgeon)
The fight game has definitely changed.
- Guys like Jack Johnson redefine promoting a fight. After all most prize fighters simply fought and kept their mouths shut.
- Enter guys like the Brown Bomber and Rocky Marciano. They kept their mouths shut and let the media and ACTUAL promoters promote the fight.
- Now see Muhammad Ali. Joe Louis felt he rocked the boat too much. Ali was hated by many but loved by the media but he more or less created the blueprint for selling a fight.
- Also note at this time a flamboyant and successful PROMOTER did a GREAT job at quess what . . . PROMOTING. Don King did a decent job of creating hype. – See Larry Holmes vs Gerry Cooney.
- Fast-forward past the train-wreck, dollar generating Mike Tyson to the year 2006. Watch “Pretty Boy” Floyd Mayweather Jr.’s jealously of Oscar De La Hoya transforms him into a WWE heel publicly known as “Money” Mayweather Jr.
- Mayweather Jr. talks, talks, talks and incites fans into believe his reality-star persona is the real him. He successfully goes on to sell De La Hoya vs. Mayweather Jr. although many pundits don’t appreciate his conservative DEFENSE-first style.
- Note, many boxers that criticizes Mayweather Jr. for his antics can not sell their own fights. The guys with big money behind their names are VERY fortunate. The climate in boxing NEEDS characters AND NEEDS promoters that CAN PROMOTE.
- Please name 1 Boxing promoter with a presence LIKE Dana White.
. . . I’ll get into the UFC-MMA later. But let’s be clear about ONE THING. The UFC is the organizing body, promoter and broadcaster. It is great that guys like Frank Mir, Chael Sonnen, Brock Lesnar, Rampage, Bisping understands the business of promoting a fight BUT I don’t expect the other guys to be able to do what Don King does. Does Randy really promotes his fights or just gives interviews and discuss how he’s exciting about the challenge?
Think about it.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
Just a side note: why is it that people are still surprised by fighter salaries when they are released? It’s not a hard concept. The fighters sign a contract for x amount for x fights. THEN they get good, start knocking people out in the first round (Carwin) or having awesome performances against Okami, then upsetting Marquardt, and hyping a fight like no one has ever seen against AS. Why do journalists still gawk at low salaries for fighters who just started getting good while performing within their contract. AFTER their contract they will see a significant hike in pay. This isn’t a hard concept.
For everything he did to sell this PPV and for how many buys it ended up doing he should have been paid more. I don’t want to hear about locker room bonuses either because those may or may not exist depending on who you ask.
First, why on earth would the UFC pay him more than they have to? Second, how were they supposed to know how well the extreme hype would work? The got the PPV numbers after the fight. Wanna go back and edit a contract for a fight that already happened?
Hard core MMA fan since UFC 99
by ChiCubs23 on Aug 17, 2010 1:10 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
On bonuses and bondage
Several years ago, I worked at a company that was in the practice of doling out very large annual bonuses, which could be as high as 15 percent of your annual salary. This company was also in the habit of giving very small annual raises — between 1.5 and 3 percent — regardless of performance. When employees pointed out how low their raises were, management would invariably say, “you’ll get a real nice bonus this year.”
This affects employees in several ways. First, and most importantly, it kept our base salaries artificially suppressed, so that if you worked there for several years, as I did, your career earning progress was substantially stunted. Second, it kept employees completely off balance, and completely skewed the power dynamic in favor of management.
When I hear about these phantom bonuses and about a top performer like Chael working not for a concrete reward, but rather for the promise of “being taken care of by the UFC,” it just reinforces my opinion that at some point, fighters — who make the UFC run — are going to have to do something to shift the balance a little more in their favor.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
Its definitely smart business on the part of the UFC, however, the bonuses the UFC gives are also a much higher % of a fighter’s salary.
" Real talk - A gorilla would shit kick Brock." – ElliotMatheny
Do you have numbers on the bonuses they pay, or how often they pay them?
You’ll be surprised. Snowden was working on a piece on this, if I recall correctly. It would do a lot of good to dispel these myths.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I wish I had more than anecdotal numbers for bonuses. I’m not under the impression that Dana is Santa Claus going from fighter to fighter after every event and throwing out checks. My understanding is that when a fight or fighter does well for the company (e.g. takes a fight that no one else will, steps in at the last minute, puts on an amazing show) and don’t qualify for a blank of the night bonus that they receive a check.
" Real talk - A gorilla would shit kick Brock." – ElliotMatheny
Yep, it’s wonderful that Zuffa gives out these locker room bonuses but they aren’t true income they are bonuses awarded completely on the whim of Dana White. There are no guarantees with these things but I’m sure they build a lot of loyalty with fighters who occasionally get them.
Of course they're true income...
In many companies discretionary bonuses are part of the total package. They are used to provide some incentive to perform. I would hardly call them “not true income” just because they are discretionary by Dana White!
There isn’t any real way to tell if you will get one or how much it would be. You can’t count on them, heck you can’t even count on the possiblity of them and if you don’t get one then you can’t even be overly upset about it because it’s not actually part of the job anyway. It’s the equivalent of your boss saying that occasionally he may walk by your office and toss in a handful of random bills if the mood strikes him. It’s great to get extra money but I wouldn’t count on having it to pay your home mortgage with or anything.
I don’t get why every cent that is earned outside of the commission reports is classified as solely based on Dana’s whims. We know Randy got a 500k signing bonus. And that was a few years back. Now he’s a big star, but is it impossible for anyone else to get signing bonuses? We all assumed Fedor had more money coming from affliction before the details of the consulting deal between m-1 and affliction came out.
The amount and frequency of these bonuses are probably overstated, but they do exist, and so do other forms of guaranteed compensation, that we have seen from all sorts of promotions, that are not fight purses.
Its all just a method for Dana White to encourage his cronyism. You do something for him and he’ll make it up to you. There was a bit in that Shogun story that was rather telling. Shogun was understandably rather despondent after his loss, and Dana wrote him that check. He stayed despondent, and instead of saying “I understand. We’ll talk business tomorrow”, Dana pulled the “Hey look who takes care of you” line. Its kind of mobbish actually, and exceptionally crude. But it has definitely worked well for the UFC. I just think a bigger base salary makes more sense.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
by Neil Manich on Aug 17, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
exactly
Again, as someone who’s been in that situation, I was always very grateful to get my giant bonus check (which was always assessed AFTER the review/raise process) and was extremely loyal to my direct managers, who had a say in the size of the bonus.
It’s actually a pretty effective strategy for getting what you want out of employees, but that doesn’t make it right, per se.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
It's not a matter of right or wrong, exactly...
Businesses are there to make money. For the most part, they do what is legal rather than illegal, rather than trying to do what is “right” over what is “wrong”. Hence they will pollute, or contribute to global warming, or have sexist employment policies, unless the law tells them they can’t do it.
Oh I agree,
which is why the fighters are probably going to have to take matters into their own hands if they want things like health plans, pensions and higher guaranteed paydays. The UFC will pay exactly as much as it has to in order to retain the best talent, which, under the current circumstances, means slightly more than their financially shaky competitors in the US market. If Strikeforce were ever to fold, the UFC position would become even more dominant, and the fighter position would become even more tenuous.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
There's no pension plan in MMA
so the next best thing would be to be a company man. Dana has shown loyalty to those who are loyal to him. I’m really thinking Chael will end up on TUF. The sheer volume of excriment that will come out of that man’s mouth would put all previous years of TUF to shame. Ratings gold right there. Though I don’t know if I can take week after week of Chael being… Chael.
people act as if Sonnen is making a sacrifice for the UFC
But he is smart enough to understand that bringing eyeballs to the UFC builds up his own brand as well. Zuffa may be stingy with the back end, but at this point Chael Sonnen can charge more $$ to sponsors than Shane Carwin.
..!..
See Shane Carwin came out swinging out against Bloody Elbow and scored some early blows, but has faded away under adversity and has failed to put BE away. Meanwhile, BE’s superior endurance and lasting power is exposing holes in his game, and will ultimately finish Carwin.
by TLow on Aug 17, 2010 2:18 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Good article, good observations.
Unfortunately Sonnen may suffer from a style difference. I got into a little debate with one of my sons friends and she claimed that my son didn’t miss much because the fight was too long and not that great. I was blown away. That’s the observation of a Hooters girl with a average to LOW I.Q. but there it is. Fans saw the best p4p get his ass kicked for almost 25 minutes. She saw a dull fight. sigh
Well to be fair
if she’s not really all that up on the significance of what she’s watching then you can’t really blame her for being clueless. As a probably less than casual fan instead of seeing one of the best p4p fighters being dominated, she just saw some black guy getting laid on and patty-punched for almost half an hour.
"I like hardcore crack, that's why my teeth are so bad" -wad of meat
by Fake Emcee on Aug 17, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Point taken
But she’s still a numb skull that didn’t pay and her demo will probably never pay for a fight. Me, I WILL pay for the next Sonnen, Silva fight(s). I’m just that guy. Sonnen did sit in the guard a lot but he threw while he was there. When I saw Silva go to his knees to Sonnen, and the respect Sonnen gave back, I was done. I was seriously choked up. It was that good for me.lol
The funny thing is that Carwin did a lot of hype for the Lesnar fight when it was first announced and everyone on this site complained about him being self-righteous or whatever. Haters gonna hate, I guess.
That’s actually a good point, albeit made in a bad way. When they first tried to put this fight on Carwin was doing a great sell job. After it came out that Lesnar was sick then Carwin got all respectful and stopped talking shit.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
CagesideSeats.com
While both Sonnen and Carwin took different approaches to hyping their fight in the end both got taken care of after the fact so there really isn’t a difference.
Carwin regardless of how BE wants to spin things, made clear why he wasn’t going out of his way to do extra interviews and it had nothing to do with money. He gave Brock a big scare and made himself a commodity in the HW division trust me Dana will have no second thoughts on giving him another shot after that performance.
Sonnen on the other hand put no a legendary hype job that no one in the history of the sport has ever been able to pull off and become a draw overnight.
Dana and company are very happy with both guys because even though both lost, they made names for themselves and will be in the UFC for a long time.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
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