Early Fallout of Shane Carwin Steroid Scandal
by Nate Wilcox on Aug 16, 2010 1:30 PM EDT
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There hasn't been a great deal of editorial commentary since the news came out that Shane Carwin was named by a U.S. prosecutor as one of 22 athletes receiving steroids from a criminal drug ring in Alabama. But a few brave souls have ventured to opine.
Here's Jamie Penick of MMA Torch:
This is unfortunately the unseen underbelly of many sports, and despite the fact that Carwin will deny tooth and nail that any of this is true and point to the fact that he hasn't failed any tests, he's named as receiving steroid shipments from this pharmacy and isn't going to help his case. This seems to be a continued cycle in every sport, where it's being done, people know it's being done, but these athletes will continue to deny, deny, deny. But we're to the point now where the continued denials have lost all credence. Of course, Carwin shouldn't be totally crucified in the public light, because he's simply named here, hasn't been caught with anything technically and hasn't failed a test, but this certainly isn't good for him. People will look at him differently from here on out, however.
Oliver Saenz of Fighters.com:
If it proves true, I think this could be damning for both Shane Carwin and the sport of Mixed Martial Arts as a whole. This would prove that one of the UFC's biggest potential stars is chemically enhanced. It sends a message to the public that the UFC may not be as squeaky-clean as it touts itself to be, and it sends a message to prospective fighters that one of the quickest ways to the top is through the juice, considering how quickly Carwin skyrocketed to the top of the pecking order and found himself challenging for a championship. It casts a black mark on Carwin's entire career, which up until now has had near-unstoppable potential even with his recent loss to Brock Lesnar. Carwin was destined for great things, but now that his name may forever be tied to this conspiracy, he may be branded with a Scarlet Letter and even released from the UFC.
Some may balk at that, saying that the UFC has given second chances to fighters who have tested positive for steroids. But that's the thing- Carwin never tested positive and was still on the roids. This is the type of story that the media can really stick their teeth in to: not only is a huge UFC star right in the middle of a big nationwide conspiracy, he never once got caught. It says more about the state of popular media than it does the state of steroid testing in MMA, but I think there's a very real possibility that the media will take this, spin it, blow it out of proportion, and get so many people riled up that the UFC has no choice but to give Carwin the axe. In the realm of exploitative journalism, Shane Carwin may end up being someone's wet dream come true.
More in the full entry including Jake Rossen, Subo and the New England Sports Network:
Nick Coman of the New England Sports Network:
The UFC competitors are tested for steroid use, but it is hard to believe that the practice still isn't wide spread or that the testing is remotely stringent.
The organization has made a concerted -- and successful -- effort to differentiate itself from the WWE and become a real sport. President Dana White even wants to see it become a college sport, and that seems less and less out of the question as it catches on.
Still, in order for it to truly establish legitimacy, it needs to take juicing out of the game entirely.
It's just too hard to not lump the UFC in with the WWE when Carwin and (Kurt) Angle are listed in the same police report.
And Jake Rossen of ESPN/Sherdog really turns up the heat:
The charges also put a new spin on Carwin's fight with Brock Lesnar in July. Had Carwin managed -- as he seemed to be within seconds of doing -- to stop Lesnar, the UFC would now be attempting to shovel over the past indiscretions of their heavyweight champion. Carwin would have become the first current champion to have a U.S. attorney labeling him a cheat. Bullet dodged.
Does this really mean anything? Is anyone surprised by the news that a man who has to cut weight to make the 265-pound heavyweight ceiling might have ballooned with the help of lab science? I doubt it; audiences are too jaded at this point. While it may have been a shock to hear about the heroes of baseball -- essentially competing in one giant Norman Rockwell painting -- with needles sticking out of their rears, it's far easier to imagine licensed fighters doing anything to produce a more effective beating.
Combat sports have special problems because the risk of steroid use isn't limited to the fighters' organs or endocrine systems -- it also includes the potential to injure an opponent who may be choosing not to take the same path. Carwin is a wrecking ball of a fighter who barely needs to touch chins before they crack. Is it because he's gifted, or because he married already-promising genetics with the latest in test-tube athletics? And if it's the latter, it is that much better than showing up with a loaded glove?
And Subo at Fightlinker pulls no punches:
I hate steroids, I hate the idea that they don't matter/should be legal, and I hate them more in MMA than any other sport. You can make the argument in baseball that it's more individual, but not in mixed martial arts - when you take steroids, you're not just endangering yourself, you're jeopardizing the heath of your opponent, whom agreed to let him hit you contingent upon the fact that neither of you used banned supplements. If there is ever a death in the Octagon, and the winner (survivor) of the fight tests positive for steroids, you could have a potentially horrific situation.
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I'm kinda surprised
that Carwin hasn’t said anything since the accusations started. Hmm….
If he did make a statement without thinking it through first he would probably bury himself into a deeper hole
He’s out of town with his phone turned off, according to his blog.
Not that I condone facism or any ism for that matter. Isms are in my opinion, not good. A person shouldn't believe in an ism, he should believe in himself.
I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me". Good point there, after all he was the walrus. I could be the walrus. Wouldn't change the fact I have to bum rides off of people.
How convenient....
But no one on his twitter/website has posted anything about this? Or have people and they’re just cleaning it up?
Yeah, well he's been on Twitter a bit.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Carwin had a press conference
I’ll have it up on WKR later on in the day.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
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by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 17, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
In the end
Whatever happens to Carwin doesn’t matter much, and I don’t think will bring any detrimental effects to MMA. I only hope this opens the eyes of the Athletic Commissions, so that they will finally start using more effective drug testing.
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe."
- Frank Zappa
I should clarify
that I’m not holding my breath…
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe."
- Frank Zappa
by grizzlyatoms on Aug 16, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Olympic Method pre-fight testing along w/random drug tests
throughout the year is the only way to go.
Agreed
But who is responisible for random tests? I’m guessing each state AC would be responsible for randomly testing all licensed fighters that are listed as fighting out of that state. But what about foreign fighters licensed to fight in the US?
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe."
- Frank Zappa
by grizzlyatoms on Aug 16, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Good point.
You’d pretty much have to require an international governing body to administer the testing around the year and around the globe.
Anyone have any more input on how that all works on the WADA/IOC level? Do they go into certified blood clinics or do they have someone travelling around doing the testing. And what if you’re not fighting or not with a promotion. Do you avoid testing?
Play Hard, Train Harder
And on the same token
What about fighters fighting out of a state with no AC? Seems to me the best thing would be for everyone to be required a license to fight in NV and let them handle it – at least until some sort of national/international agency could be set up.
And to answer your question – I would guess it would only be to active fighters. Maybe they’ve had to have a fight in the last 12 months, or be scheduled to fight.
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe."
- Frank Zappa
by grizzlyatoms on Aug 16, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
people should stop acting like that will be a definite solution. I’m all for more testing, but WADA and the IOC have let dozens of athletes slip through the cracks.
Noone says that it will be the be-all end-all solution, but the methods being used now are fucking stupid. There’s no arguing that…
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe."
- Frank Zappa
by grizzlyatoms on Aug 16, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
you'll never have a fool proof system
b/c they’ll always be a scientist trying to find the next big thing and a fighter who’s willing to take it. however, i’d trade in the “dozens” that may fall through the cracks to what they have in place today, which happens to be a friggin joke
I like your way of putting it much better.
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe."
- Frank Zappa
by grizzlyatoms on Aug 16, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Whut whut?
think this could be damning for both Shane Carwin and the sport of Mixed Martial Arts as a whole
Josh Barnett, Tim Sylvia (at the time), Sean Sherk, Stephan Bonnar? I would say all of them had more to do with the damning of MMA at the time of their suspension. People prior to the Lesnar fight still qualified him as a “who?” Or the next guy to fight Brock. After still, I think he’s the guy who “Had an awesome fight but doesn’t train cardio”
Regardless, at the time of the steroid shipment, he was fighting for Extreme Wars & UTS. Whoever they are. Hardly damning that it happened 4 years ago around the time of his 3rd MMA fight.
Play Hard, Train Harder
This is true
Everybody talks about how MMA dodged a bullet that Shane lost to Brock and wasn’t champion for this. Sean Sherk failed a steroid test as a champion. You can get into the whole, “sample of water tested positive for steroids thing” but the fact remains that he was a champion that tested positive. Was stripped of his title and suspended. MMA has been through this, and gotten bigger. This isn’t on the UFC, this is on Shane. He fucked himself.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
i think it would be a good idea first to listen to what shane has to say regarding the
steroid deliveries before we all say, HE FCKED HIMSELF
I’d love to hear him talk his way out of this. They delivered illegal steroids to his door with his name on them.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
same here
i’m no doctor, but i think steroids have legitimate uses under certain controlled conditions, ie, injuries and as part of a medical treatment
2 guesses 1 work related 2 "I wanted a training partner as big as I am"
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 16, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Steroid have many medical uses
ANABOLIC steroids coming from an illegal drug ring tend to have a very defined and nonmedical purpose.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
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by Worldisart on Aug 16, 2010 2:04 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Illegal?
The guy got busted for working for a Pharmacy/Anti-Aging Clinic.
Hardly an illegal drug ring.
Illegal drug rings are smart enough to keep no paperwork trail. :)
Play Hard, Train Harder
Wait, you don’t have to fill out a form when you buy crack?
...like young thieves in a glowing orchard, loosely jacketed against the cold and ten thousand worlds for the choosing.
- C. McCarthy
depends ???
do you have a HMO or PPO?
by Gi_choke on Aug 16, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Injuries are why anabolic steroids where invented.
An east German doctor was looking for a way for Olympians to recover from injuries more quickly. He found that anabolic steroids didn’t help with injuries much, but that they boosted performance beyond a persons natural limits.
Years later, the Olympic athletes who received these doctor administered steroids where leading debilitated lives as a result. Even when administered by a professional doctor, the amount of anabolic steroids needed to achieve athletic benefit have serious negative side effects.
IMO, if you are a regular dude, you should be able to take all the Roids you want. But, if you are a professional athlete, you are committing yourself to competing fairly against other professional athletes.
It would be in the UFC’s best interest to do whatever it takes to make sure their fighters are clean. With the level of exposure they’ve achieved, having a champ/popular fighter get pop’ed could cause them some serious trouble.
Many incorrect statements in here
Those concerning the history are not relevant so I won’t go into them, but:
“Even when administered by a professional doctor, the amount of anabolic steroids needed to achieve athletic benefit have serious negative side effects.”
Is completely and factually incorrect. The ethics of their use is a separate issue, but when the correct drugs (and adjunct medicines) are correctly prescribed and monitored they are relatively safe with minimal side effects.
The problem is too much misinformation combined with too much tainted/counterfeit products due to their nebulous (at best) legal status for performance enhancement.
That and too much “if 25mg works great imagine what 500mg will do for me” thinking.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 16, 2010 7:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I think this needs qualification.
Some steroids can be used by some people under some circumstances safely.
The steroids that are actually used by many people are often used in unsafe ways, even under the care of the kind of doctor that is willing to go along with this kind of thing.
I mean, the story we’re talking about includes horse hormones – let’s not pretend that that stuff could be safe if only it were legalized.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
by jemaleddin on Aug 16, 2010 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Of course, that's what I meant when I said
when the correct drugs (and adjunct medicines) are correctly prescribed and monitored they are relatively safe with minimal side effects.
It is only when FDA-approved (or similar in other countries) medications are used under proper supervision (including monitoring and testing) that they are safe (relatively).
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 16, 2010 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
And I'm saying that that isn't reality and it won't ever be.
You can get morphine with a doctor’s prescription, but there are a lot of people on heroin. Steroids are clearly drugs of abuse, and making them easier to get legally won’t make them safer overall.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
You make my point for me
Morphine is a Sch II (triplicate) drug, and for most people, it is far easier to get heroin than it is to get legitimate morphine.
Having said that, there are not many people who would opt for heroin if it were suddenly legal and regulated than already opt for it. When it is widely available (and it is), legal status alone deters very, very few people.
Steroids are already legally available, but not for athletic performance-enhancement purposes, and doctors are very, very wary of prescribing them due to the problems it creates with FDA and DEA on their end justifying why they prescribed them.
Nevertheless, allowing doctors to prescribe and monitor steroid usage would make them far, far safer, not to mention it would get most of the tainted product off the black market.
As it is now, it is almost impossible to get real, medical grade, GMP complient injectible anabolic steroids (and nearly as bad for oral steroids) in the US without a prescription.
The problem, and the completely predictible net result of this of course is that now you have so many people have no real idea what they are putting in their bodies.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 17, 2010 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Carwin's Excuse.
It was 2006, I was new to the fight game, I didn’t know any better. I was coming off an injury. At the current time, it wasn’t illegal through any of the Athletic Commissions I was fighting for…. I’ll take this as a sincere point to look internally at what I did in the past and come back as a better fighter for my friends, fans & the UFC.
I’m pretty sure that due to it being 4 years ago and being in a small potatoes promotion, he’ll be able to come pretty clean.
Play Hard, Train Harder
by dj_krisko on Aug 16, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
that sounds pretty good
done this before?
Use more judges.
Does he have some animals? Maybe he wanted more T-Bone steaks from one cow, so he roided it up and voila.
"...ride life straight to perfect laughter,
it's the only good fight there is."
by dancingChicken on Aug 16, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
H/t: Belushi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TuLBa-rgBk
"You stick a microphone in a guy's face and he calls out anybody but the champion, and Joe Silva should fax him a pink slip right then." -- Chael Sonnen.
MMA wasn't 1/4 as big then as it was now
Nor was Sherk 1/10 as big as Carwin is
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 16, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Ummmm
“Carwin was destined for great things, but now that his name may forever be tied to this conspiracy, he may be branded with a Scarlet Letter and even released from the UFC.”
Like other steroid users who could never get a fight again like Nate Marquardt and Chris Leben. (And those listed above.)
Ahem.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
by jemaleddin on Aug 16, 2010 1:40 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Sean Sherk was champion when he got caught.
MMA journalists are terrible. Are all sports journalists like this, or is it just a fledgling-sport thing?
...like young thieves in a glowing orchard, loosely jacketed against the cold and ten thousand worlds for the choosing.
- C. McCarthy
the newness of mma doesn't help
the writers who do MMA full-time or as a big part of their job tend to love the sport so that’s a plus. But the practice of journalism in the US is in dark days in all fields, not just sports.
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too much money on the line for being first, not enough consequences for being wrong
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Aug 16, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Heh
Was just about to say the same thing. Leben is on top of the world right now and he tested positive. Shane hasn’t even popped yet. Calm down…
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
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by xFenixKnightx on Aug 16, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that its because he's a heavyweight
where size matters a bit more than other weight classes because of the weight limit. People hear that he’s on roids they assume that the only reason why he’s so successful is because he was on roids. The fact that Carwin is probably the largest in shape competitor besides Brock doesn’t help his case.
what surprises me is the length of time that it is taking shane to
come out with a statement concerning the steroid report; for a figher known to post regularly on mma forums, his silence concerning the steroid deliveries is outright disturbing
by theblade on Aug 16, 2010 1:42 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
He might not want to publicly talk about a federal case that he is involved in that is still in the courts.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Shane’s painted himself in a corner of a person that out of his own mouth has always taken the moral high ground
Dana does not like this kind of attention drawn on him or the sport as a whole. Especially for someone that’s taken many a shot at fighters like Josh Barnett, and their own failed drug tests.
I cant see Carwin getting out of this one unscratched. Him or the UFC
If there is ever a death in the Octagon, and the winner (survivor) of the fight tests positive for steroids, you could have a potentially horrific situation.
This is complete hyperbole and totally overselling the point. While I agree with the premise, “what if’s”, especially one as far-fetched as that, are NOT the way to solidify your argument.
http://www.instrength.com
It's not that much more far fetched than the whole...
loaded wraps garbage that happened in boxing a few times.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com - Artist formerly known as Sklz711
by Jacob Hayes on Aug 16, 2010 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
These are the things that terrify me – the intersection of controversy and legality. Expanding on my hypothetical, but all-too-possible, situation: what’s to stop the deceased fighter’s representation from saying “coming in positive for steroids invalidates the fight contract as it nullifies the agreement, so we believe this is manslaughter”? Let’s just fucking SKIP IT and drop all of this dangerous, immature talk of just legalizing every PED for MMA competitors.
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by Derek Suboticki on Aug 17, 2010 3:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m in favor of legalizing the currently-legal-for-other-purposes PEDs to the point that physicians have discretion in prescribing them as PEDs, but this is not the same as advocating legalizing them in sports in general, or MMA in particular.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 17, 2010 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions
The problem with stories like this (and it applies to all sports) is that they just throw mud, get people fired up, and do nothing to solve the problem.
Athlete X did steroids y years ago when people didn’t care/didn’t know/didn’t test. Let’s burn them at the stake. Then Athlete X denies, says nothing, or admits/apologizes for doing something wrong, but can’t do enough to make a difference because of pending sporting and legal consequences.
What needs to be done (and quickly, because soon the “athlete did steroids years ago” story will be moving into the time period where it’s abundantly clear that steroids are cheating/illegal) they need to do something like announce, ok, you have 6 months to tell us everything you know about steroids/PED’s whatever. You will not be suspended, you will not be put in jail, you can still get into whatever hall of fame you want to, but come clean so we can understand what happened in the past, and learn how to fix it in the future. The “steroid problem” can’t be fixed, because the people that have the best grasp on it aren’t talking. In my scenario, you make it clear, anything said in this grace period will not be held against you, but if the smoking gun comes out and you lied or stayed quiet after the investigation, you are banned forever.
People using steroids now are dumb and should be punished. Punishing the small percentage of people that used in the past that get caught because they are famous or because people rat them out doesn’t really do anything (like the 7 out of 104 names on baseball’s list that have leaked).
by Phildo on Aug 16, 2010 1:46 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
This is a great idea...
Too bad the Seligs of the sports world would rather stick their heads in the sand. * sighs*
"Nothing's ever what it seems. And even if it is, ends justify means." -Matt Good
Carwin lashout at Bloody Elbow, and Alistair.
Maybe Carwin’s Bloody Elbow tweet war was a result of roid rage. At least Alistair wasn’t on that list.
it is easier to get horse meat
in other places apparently
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by Cory Braiterman on Aug 16, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Not a fan of this article
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 16, 2010 1:48 PM EDT reply actions
Why?
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 16, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Because it's speculation on other's speculation
There is no fallout right now as a) this has gone largely ignored, b) The UFC nor Carwin has spoken on it, and c) there’s no legality pending. The only people covering it are the highly incestuous MMA media.
There’s not really much to talk about at this point. Doomsday scenarioing is futile.
Just make jokes. That shit is fun.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 16, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
it's not speculation
it’s a round up of commentary. I added zero speculation.
also you should flag your (genius) post as Satire on WKR.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
It's clearly labeled satire
And shhhh, I’m just trying to quell the nonsense cries of bias.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 16, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
"If there is ever a death in the Octagon, and the winner (survivor) of the fight tests positive for steroids, you could have a potentially horrific situation."
Why? if they were the same weight when they fought then how would steroid muscle be stronger than natural muscle? its been my experience ( albeit limited) that it’s actually the other way around. Natural muscle seems to be stronger. where steroids make you stronger but kinda make you a “blow up”, with less dense muscle. So a natural guy at the same weight could very likely be the stronger man. Am I wrong on this ??
The argument is that they weren’t supposed to be that strong in the first place (for heavyweights). I’m not sure why the hell steroids matter at all for any other weight. All this self-righteousness about steroids kind of bothers me, but I guess it’s not good for MMA fighters to be caught using them.
...like young thieves in a glowing orchard, loosely jacketed against the cold and ten thousand worlds for the choosing.
- C. McCarthy
um yeah but the champ is at the hw limit soooo
they should be the same relative size, or at least Carwin was not the larger man while fighting for the belt.
um yeah but the champ is at the hw limit soooo
they should be the same relative size, or at least Carwin was not the larger man while fighting for the belt.
Because of perception IMO
People perceive steroids as giving you extra power
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 16, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Would weight cutting supplements be worse
a la Alves and the diuretics? Those actually allow a fighter to circumvent the size limit to an extent.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
excellent point!!
or SPEED!! amphetamines help focus and have you ever tried to KO a Meth-head??? not as easy as it sounds i assure you.
increased to the same mass/relative size as the person you are fighting ??
bj and frankie are the only guys that spring to mind when i think of people that fight under the weight limit with any frequency.
Shogun doesn't even weigh 210.
Lyoto isn’t much bigger, and Rashad is also a very small LHW. Houston Alexander didn’t cut significant weight, but he’s clearly not as prolific as the aforementioned.
Demian Maia doesn’t get above 200 lbs, making him smaller than or comparable to a lot of welterweights.
Tyson Griffin is a tiny LW, and Clay Guida rarely breaks 165lbs.
Miguel Torres walks at about 150 between camps.
Urijah Faber, when he was out of shape and recovering from injury, was shocked that he ballooned up to a massive (by his standards) 160 lbs, and is normally 150-153 if I recall correctly. Joseph Benavidez also cuts marginal amounts of weight, but he doesn’t have much of a choice.
That’s off the top of my head. Not trying to call you out, just shooting off some examples.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I'm going based on a passing conversation from about a year ago
but if you have a link to him saying otherwise recently, I’ll graciously concede the point.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I said under not right at or slightly over. I am sure there are lots more.. for sure HW's
and feel free to correct me anytime bro. I appreciate it. I don’t wanna keep being wrong on the internet. lol
Haha, nice jab at the sig, I can take it.
But BJ doesn’t fight at or below 155, he walks around 170ish, diets to 160-165, then cuts the remainder. Unless you’re talking about him at welterweight which is a whole different story, but I wouldn’t say he does that with any frequency anymore.
I don’t have any specific numbers on Frankie, but I’d bet (read: speculate) that he cuts about 5-10 lbs to make weight. Kinda like Akiyama does for 185. Don’t have a meal that day, go for a jog, don’t rehydrate, you’re set. Hardly even a weight cut at all.
Really, the point is that a lot of smaller guys will continue to beat bigger guys even without the advantage that ‘roids can bring since they don’t make you superhuman. Just let you recover faster and work harder. Roid muscle is still human muscle and still bound to the same laws as everything else.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
with bj i meant all the other weights he has fought at.
and as far as roids. we have the exact same view it looks like.
BJ eats too much spam.
He had extra spam before the Machida fight. Its a well know fact.
Wrong - it was burritos
“I love burritos. Burritos are my life. They’re the perfect food.” – BJ Penn
Sometimes I have no idea if BJ is being funny on purpose or if he just has no brain-mouth filter.
...like young thieves in a glowing orchard, loosely jacketed against the cold and ten thousand worlds for the choosing.
- C. McCarthy
Talent doesn't equal brains.
See:
The Bengals
Terry Bradshaw
James Toney
Nick Diaz
Every Miami Football team to ever play
I could go on forever.
This is why it would be bad. One guy cheated to gain an advantage that unfortunately led to somebody’s death. That’s why its horrific. And that’s why there would most likely be manslaughter charges.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
No you are not, at least not anecdotely...
I am not aware of any studies comparing them, but my experience training guys is exactly that for the most part – people who have used most types of anabolic steroids look stronger / more powerful than they are when compared to guys who are “natural.”
I have helped guys design regimines when they are using, but it is difficult to compare one man to another in that way. I suspect that at least part of it is a result of increased fluid retention, but the types of ultra high calory diet that most guys are on when the cycle combines with the steroids to increase intra-muscular fat as well…this is part of the reason why steroids are outstanding for bodybuilding.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 17, 2010 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions
It's almost like you're saying that steroids work.
Bizarre.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Not sure if this is your attempt at sarcasm, but...
That is because they do work, at least when used properly, and for specific purposes. They are certainly not the athletic performance enhancing panacea that many imagine them to be, even when used correctly, but they absolutely have relatively safe (in as much as rx drugs are), predictable benefits when used correctly.
Having said that, and again this is anecdotal, when everything else is equal (and it never truly is), the highly trained guy who weighs 195 (with a lean mass of say 180) who has gotten that way naturally is going to be a stronger, better, and far less injury-prone athlete than the same guy who is 195/180 having used anabolic steroids correctly for the last 2 years. I’m not certain why this is, but anecdotal evidence has shown this to be true. The injury part of this is likely because the various connective tissues do not respond in the same way (proportionally), but I am not aware of any thorough studies looking at this (or the strength issue).
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 17, 2010 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
My point is that...
…eventually these steroid discussions devolve into people claiming that steroids either:
a) don’t give much benefit over plain old weight training, or
b) don’t provide any benefit given that sports are more than just strength.
So I’m agreeing with you.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Their primary advantage in athletic competition is that they are a shortcut, allowing far more rapid (if not quite as effective) gains than would otherwise be possible.
If you take a guy who already trains heavily for strength/size (GSP for example), they can still add lean muscle mass without PEDs, but only with a specifically designed program (including diet and suppliments), and only at a rate of 1/4# – 1/2# per week (varies over time and training). For someone his size, a gain of as much as 20# – 25# in a year is possible, but given what he trains for and the type of training he does, something in the neighborhood of 15# is probably more realistic.
Now, depending on how they train (and have previously trained), an already very athletic guy, especially one who hasn’t done extensive science-based weight training with proper diet and supplimentation, will experience far quicker gains by properly using anabolics (and various PEDs) and a program designed to take advantage of their use than they would without. This is particularly true for the very first time someone does a cycle.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 17, 2010 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
I generally agree. I don’t give a shit what these guys want to do to their bodies while in training camp.
As long as they don’t have anything in their system the week/night of the fight, have at it.
Don’t forget that there are also people who don’t want to use steroids and who may not be able to become a top competitor because of it. You’re not just cheating your way to the top, you’re cheating others to the bottom.
by MyrkN on Aug 16, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If we let them use enhancing drugs freely this will happen sooner or later
Or not.
I'm a lover not a fighter
by spectaa on Aug 16, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Fuck you dude, I was going to have pasta for lunch and everything.
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 16, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
this gif addresses the more important issue of WHEN ARE THEY GONNA MAKE "THE DIMAK " ILLEGAL IN MMA.
ITS ALL FUN AND GAMES UNTIL SOMEONE GETS THEIR STILL BEATING HEART REMOVED!!
Over-Simplification
Dude, even if you allow everyone to use it, there will be some who don’t want to put that shit in their bodies. Is it fair for them to lose a competitive edge because they don’t want to put foreign substances in their bodies?
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe."
- Frank Zappa
by grizzlyatoms on Aug 16, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
that same arguement
could be used regarding a lot of training techniques, suppliments, etc
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 17, 2010 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Nick Coman of NESN's take is laughable
“Still, in order for it to truly establish legitimacy, it needs to take juicing out of the game entirely.” Yeah, like MLB and the NFL! This from a man working for a company who regularly fellate guys like David Ortiz and, formerly, Manny Ramirez.
I LOL’d at that line too. Steroids are ridiculously common in college athletics, football especially.
Ricky Hatton came closer to beating Manny Pacquiao than Marquez did to beating Floyd.
-SC
by The Lethal Haze on Aug 16, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
and what about giantism????
which is caused by massive amounts of growth being produced in the body. which greatly increases size and strength ( see Silva,Big FOOT). should we disqualify anyone affected with this disorder from pro sports? if not then why should it be illegal for some one to put equal amounts for GH into their body that said giant has in theirs??
one is natural, the other not so much
plus, gigantism is a disorder, you don’t want it.
Whaaassssuppp?
well you might want it, just not everywhere
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 16, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Awesome
Mickey Avalon. Should not be surprised I’m on BE after all
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 16, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
No, trust me, you don't
I’ve found my Pringles Can size manhood to be a burden.
"You stick a microphone in a guy's face and he calls out anybody but the champion, and Joe Silva should fax him a pink slip right then." -- Chael Sonnen.
There are certain logistical problems that accompany such things.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 16, 2010 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions
true i dont want it.....
but they are crazy strong because of this disorder and their body chemistry. So if you are going to discount one person for body chemistry why not the other? So its not the ends….. but just the means by which the person became stronger. Seems kinda silly. If you are truly worried about the strength gap and the other fighters safety then why should it matter how their body chemistry came to be that way that it is?
you might think they are crazy strong but something tells me Andre the Giant wouldn’t do very well in MMA, despite being in the Princess Bride.
Whaaassssuppp?
i dont think he would do bad. At 7'4" and 500 pounds i would love to see him try his hand at it in his prime.
Hulk said he was the strongest human he had ever met. Andre never lost a match he didn’t want to even if the boss told him otherwise. not to sound like a mark but .. i am sure i do anyway.
Andre was actually only about 6’11. And in his prime he was about 385 or so.
http://www.instrength.com
Stats aside ..tell me yosu wouldnt tune into see Brock or Carwin vs. Andre in an open weight class UFC match.
that shit would have been EPIC!!!!
The myth that Andre the Giant would have been some sort of monster in MMA if he were in his prime today has been addressed before. Paul Cesar Silva, better known as The Giant Silva, is taller than Andre and actually a tiny bit larger than Andre was at his athletic peak in the ‘70s before he got a massive belly, and is also a better athlete, and went 1-6 in MMA. As for strength, Mariusz Pudzianowski showed that torque strength doesn’t really guarantee very much by itself, or even with some serious training (this is on top of Hogan being one of the most prolific exaggerators in all of wrestling, which is saying something).
It’s not an answer that many wrestling fans want to hear but Andre the Giant would not do very well against a competent heavyweight.
Giant Silva and Prime Andre were built TOTALLY different
and carried themselves different. Andre in the 70s was agile and strong. Silva has always been a klutz.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 16, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I forget their names
But you ever see that Pride fight where the little Japanese dude runs circles around a 600-pound guy for like 10 minutes while the commentators make jokes about how the fat guy is gonna cause an earthquake if he falls?
...like young thieves in a glowing orchard, loosely jacketed against the cold and ten thousand worlds for the choosing.
- C. McCarthy
Let's not talk about wether or not anyone is/has been using steroids...
…but about the fact that the athletic commissions refuse to get bloodtesting done.
That’s right, I’m pointing the finger at the athletic commissions.
There hasn’t been a great deal of editorial commentary since the news came out that Shane Carwin was named by a U.S. prosecutor as one of 22 athletes receiving steroids from a criminal drug ring in Alabama. But a few brave souls have ventured to opine.
I was very disappointed to see Kid Nate not being one of the brave souls.
I didn't want to jump the gun
I wanted to give Carwin and chance to respond before I pounced.
Looks like that’s not happening so…..tomorrow.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 16, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll be looking forward to reading it.
Carwin’s response is in the process of being proof read by the Vatican, James Carville, and the resurrected bones of Mother Teresa.
ah
I don’t even think most steroids should be illegal. The testing regime is a joke — no blood tests means all the Human Growth Hormone you can ingest is allowed. So I don’t really have anything to say that won’t get me lynched by an angry mob of naive sports fans.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Hey it could be worse it could be a mob of Naive, angry ROIDED UP Sports fans lookin for a lynching :P
How do you Know where Im at? If you dont Know where Ive been...Understand where Im coming from??
We all know that the Diaz brothers smoke trash bags worth of pot
but other than Nick’s post Gomi fail in Pride of all places, they never get popped. That should be a major alarm going off that drug testing is easily beatable.
You are all UFC plants.
Hell Nick is the 1st to come out an say how easy it is!! Shit just drink a few hundred gallons of water an its flushed, or something to that effect :P As for roids or HGH an the like, a little harder to get around unfort. Im at the point now where it doesnt surprise me when it comes to Pro wrasslers an Pro fighters that their using certain things to help, especially considering how often they get hurt an how bad. They all know the longer they’re of the loop, the less they make an the harder it is to get back to top billing. Theres no denying how well roids help with getting back to 100% which I really do believe where it starts for most. Either way, were never going to be rid of Roids/PEDS but there has to be a way or better way to regulate it, which is rather difficult no doubt.
How do you Know where Im at? If you dont Know where Ive been...Understand where Im coming from??
This has nothing to do with Carwin, but I find it hilarous that Diaz brags about being able to smoke like a week before his fight and still beats the drug test. The guy really loves his weed.
Interestingly, Diaz and BJ are the only fighters I’ve heard get super vocal about not using steroids. Diaz looks skinny as hell compared to most fighters, and BJ’s always been a bit pudgy. Hmm.
...like young thieves in a glowing orchard, loosely jacketed against the cold and ten thousand worlds for the choosing.
- C. McCarthy
Weren’t these reported deliveries for steroids dated back before Carwin was in the UFC? I know when you cycle off of roids you lose a little size but can’t you still retain a majority of the gains even if you never took it again?
So he took roids at one point early in his career it doesn’t indicate that he’s outsmarting the system as we speak. I am not defending him, I just find it silly that thse kind of assumptions are being made based on his name being tied to a roid bust where the time of delivery was years ago.
He did not attempt to outsmart the system he took a year off before fighting again.
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 16, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
hmm...
So what if the steroids were delivered to Carwin, but Carwin just passed them on to other fighters or people training in some other sport. The thinking would be since Carwin never took them, he’d never test positive, and if something ever came up of a shipment to Carwin, it could be somewhat discredited by his constant negative tests, and that throws prosecutors off the trail of who sent what where and for why.
I’m just sayin…
Yeah, cuz that’s a believable story.
by ufc4 on Aug 16, 2010 2:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well, then he’d be guilty of intent to distribute, so that doesn’t exonerate him much at all.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
“My steriods are holier than thou’s steriods”- Shane Carwin
"If I woke up looking like that, I would run towards the nearest living thing and kill it." -Master Shake
We have to take the amulet to the banana king!
Just watch an see it will come back that it wasnt roids it was in fact, a type of growth hormone aka vitamins, that are all legal an natural. Wait that sounds kinda familar..
“Brock Lesnar, the World Wrestling Entertainment champion, was once arrested for illegally possessing steroids, though the felony charge against the 26-year-old athlete was dismissed four months after his January 2001 arrest. Lesnar, pictured in the below mug shot, was popped by Louisville Division of Police detectives after receiving and opening a parcel that cops said contained a “large amount of steroids.” Lesnar, a 295-pound former college wrestling champ, was in Kentucky training at a WWE facility. Hit with a trafficking in controlled substances charge, Lesnar was exonerated when tests showed that the seized pills were not, in fact, steroids. While a Louisville detective told TSG that the material was some kind of growth hormone, Lesnar’s defense attorney, Scott Cox, characterized the confiscated pills as a “vitamin type of thing.” According to Cox, officers seemed “very apologetic” when lab results cleared Lesnar. It is unclear how investigators concluded that the parcel sent to Lesnar may have contained illicit substances."
Now they have never comeout and said exactly what infact they were, but at the time he was in Vinces WWE, which has had many a problem of Steroids amongst the wrestlers and when their case came about, they were some how suddenly dropped. Closest thing to actually getting busted for them was when Hogan Testified with Vince an Vinces lackey ended up in the Bucket. Same shit is gonna happen now with the UFC, hate to say it, But I thinks its Inevitable thats the way the UFC is looking right about now.
“Hey yes our guys do some things they shouldnt, were trying our best, Now please look the other way and enjoy our shows!!!”
How do you Know where Im at? If you dont Know where Ive been...Understand where Im coming from??
You’re comparing cops mistaking vitamin supplements for steroids when Brock was searched after getting pulled over speeding, to a pharmacists’ signed and databased prescription transactions? Are you fucking kidding me?
(Yes, chances are that Brock ‘roided in the WWE, where he was decidedly more cut than in the UFC or college, but the incidents you’re comparing are hardly similar).
Actually Im pretty damn sure those were infact two seperate incidents. The one Im refering to he apparently had recieved thru the mail, and at the time he wasnt the only one being popped with them as it was a pretty big deal in 2000-02 as the WWE was under alot of flak.
“Brock Lesnar, the World Wrestling Entertainment champion, was once arrested for illegally possessing steroids, though the felony charge against the 26-year-old athlete was dismissed four months after his January 2001 arrest. Lesnar, pictured in the below mug shot, was popped by Louisville Division of Police detectives after receiving and opening a parcel that cops said contained a “large amount of steroids.” Lesnar, a 295-pound former college wrestling champ, was in Kentucky training at a WWE facility. Hit with a trafficking in controlled substances charge, Lesnar was exonerated when tests showed that the seized pills were not, in fact, steroids. While a Louisville detective told TSG that the material was some kind of growth hormone, Lesnar’s defense attorney, Scott Cox, characterized the confiscated pills as a “vitamin type of thing.” According to Cox, officers seemed “very apologetic” when lab results cleared Lesnar. It is unclear how investigators concluded that the parcel sent to Lesnar may have contained illicit substances."
And yes I am kinda comparing them as it obviously is a helluva bigger and goes deeper then most realize with it almost always coming down to a Dirty Doctor willing to make an xtra few bucks on the side from Pro Athletes. Im just saying dont be surprised if Carwin Pulls the “I had a valid Script for them due to an injury, blah blah blah” Which Infact, I do think they have a legit use for(Injuries./healing" Also it was more of a failed attempt at humour :P In all seriousness though, after seeing what Happened with Chris Benoit going Off, that Doctor being busted, this doctor and actual WHOLE PHARAMCY RING being brought down in the last few years ALL Pertaining to High End SPorts, it just doesnt really surprise me at all as to what 99% of Pro Athletes will do and are Subjected too to entertain the fans, but as soon as someone is ousted, the shit hits the fan, an then every one becomes a fuckin Saint an only focusing on the smallest of Aspects when really we should be asking " Where the fuck does it really stop? And where the fuck does it Really Begin" Anyways, small ‘rant’ but yeah :P
How do you Know where Im at? If you dont Know where Ive been...Understand where Im coming from??
Brock received a prohormone NOT steroids NOT HGH
A prohormone is available over the counter.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 17, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
the fact remains that you’re comparing an incident where Brock was cleared of criminal charges because labs results showed that the pills Brock received were NOT steroids and in fact were a totally legal supplement, to signed and databased shipments of what are clearly illegal anabolic steroids being sent to Shane Carwin. In one case Brock was proven completely innocent. In the other it seems almost implausible that Carwin could be innocent. I don’t get why you used an incident where a guy was completely exonerated to illustrate your point. The only thing Lesnar demonstrably has in common with Carwin is that they recently fought each other. This is almost as stupid as the Cage Potato listing of the Ten Worst Guys In MMA where they use that story and then leave out the part where he was proven innocent.
There are much better incidents to compare such as Chris Benoit’s supplier (who also supplied a number of other wrestlers) that you just brought up. Doping is a very serious and pervasive problem in professional wrestling and it is also a problem in MMA.
Also, besides the point, but, Benoit killing his wife and kid being a byproduct of ’roid rage is a media myth that has already been addressed numerous times. There are much better indicators for why he became homicidally violent, such as having accumulated brain damage as was shown in his autopsy. The amount of brain trauma suffered in pro-wrestling is a separate problem from the widespread ’roiding, and both are downright tragic.
Mmmkay, after thinking it out abit better, your right I probably should have used and went with a different incident other then Brock, although My point still stands that its almost a guarantee that Carwin is going to say that he had a legit script coming from a legit doctor. Its not the only time Brock has been implicated or connected to PED’s, Although it was always at his time in WWE/F and each time he was brought up or questioned about it, the charges somehow mysteriously were dropped ect. ect.(What I see Happening with Carwing much like has happened with Kurt Angle as well)
Brock was also named thru is inititals(IIRC) as part of the case against Benoits doctor(who was a sick sumabitch in his own right.) That Doc was apart of a huge ring as well comprising of roids, painmeds an a bunch of other shit. And your right it wasnt just roids that fuckedup Benoit(who was Prescribed INSANE amounts), it was years and years of trauma to the brain from too many blows, much like a MMA fighter recieves, as well as the Roids an Pain Meds. Chris Nowinski has a some great insight, articles/Book correalating Steroids, Brain Trauma and excessive abuse of Narcotics which actually pertains to MMA a fuck of alot more then is being made out or said that perhaps the MMA Community needs to take a Good look at?
I dunno, Im halfasleep an Im getting off course of my point an rambling again now lol doh. Anyways We moreorless seem to be agreeing that the Problem goes a fuck of a lot deeper then just Roids in Sports, and has many aspects that are so deeply rooted,that its going to be neer impossible to rid the Sports worlds of them, but surely to god, there has to be SOMETHING they can do, even if it does infact meaning Regulating them somehow. I dunno, It just seems to be so widespread now, with some many implications other then, and worse than, Cheating that something really does need to be done, before MMA has its own Benoit Story.
How do you Know where Im at? If you dont Know where Ive been...Understand where Im coming from??
ok
for the sake of argument, lets assume that Carwin did receive the drugs years ago. Let us go as far to assume that he may have actually used it then. What difference does it make now, especially after testing clean for all these years? None. The man hasn’t been caught doing it, so we have to assume he’s innocent no? what are the chances that there is another Shane Carwin out there, you know, his evil twin, or maybe long lost brother.
I’ve never heard of this Oliver Saenz guy before, but he’s an idiot.
by ufc4 on Aug 16, 2010 2:36 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
here's your soapbox, mr. subo
A legitimate question- did anyone think shane DIDNT use to begin with? Mma writers and bloggers are beginning to get way too preachy. Fans are quick to propogate their idols, but sully the reputation of the fallen. I’m willing to believe the 50 percent statistic because training is grueling and injurious. Frankly, as long as someone is cycling properly, and he isn’t shooting deca the night before, or smoking crystal meth while preparing, i refuse to believe it will alter a contest that much. The skycamefalling attitude of subo is what plagues our community currently- no middle ground, ever, on anything in the mma community.
Nate was guilty, is still a fan fav. Sherk’s’entire career was ruined. Leben’s been given a second chance and is nearing the top, when mere months ago people demanded he be given his papers. How will people stand on the carwin issue in two months? And what if gsp/ as/ aldo/ penn is accused, what will be the reaction? We cannot continue to be so childish and not believe this issue is incredibly prevalent. Should a positive result matter? Yes, an illegal action should warrant suspension. Should we try to get stricter guidelines for testing, especially in major promotions? Yes, but good luck.
The bottom line- athletes in every sport, across the board, look for the “slight” edges that will propel their abilities. Unless someone fails repeatedly (barnett), i dont believe they should be admonished. Its holier than thou, and it is ridiculous. Especially any of subo’s’point. Talk about overreaction.
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 16, 2010 2:38 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
wan't GSP
accused of this before his last fight? nothing happened there. And that there in lies the problem, especially with the interwebz, anyone can be a keyboard cowboy and shout off at the mouth with now proof or consequence.
I prefer Internet Samurai
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 16, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah!
When people cheat and break the law, we shouldn’t get upset. FREE THAT PHARMACIST!
This guy for president!
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
That's a funny point...
…but do you think that pharmacists selling horse steroids to people – obviously without a prescription – is something that should be decriminalized?
And further, is cheating something we shouldn’t worry about? I don’t care about the morality of steroids in particular – is something as unethical as intentionally trying to rig the game to give yourself a competitive advantage in clear violation of the rules just something we should accept and laugh off?
I mean, if Shane were loading his gloves or putting something in his opponent’s drinks, would we laugh that off?
(Also, can you delete/hide my dupe below? I see a lot of those happening today – there appears to be something wrong on the site.)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
YOU REALLY THINK LOADING GLOVES AND USING SUPPLEMENTS THAT ACTUALLY WORK (ROIDS)ARE THE SAME THING????
that’s just silly. muscle is always gonna be muscle no matter how it is acquired. hitting someone with a foreign object is hardly with in reason for unarmed combat…… its not even in the same solar system.
I honestly can't even tell what you're saying.
What’s your point, exactly?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
sorry didnt proof read. i am at work
I am just amazed you think roids and loaded gloves are even remotely comparable.
I think they're both cheating
The difference is that you don’t break any laws when you buy some washers to put in your wraps. :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
wow thats craziness..... If you trained BJJ I could believe what you are saying is true.
but you don’t …….so I can’t……
Curses! How do people keep finding that out?!?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
If people want to use horse steroids, that’s their business, not mine.
As for cheating in sports, no it shouldn’t go unnoticed. There’s varying levels of cheating though. Take performance enhancing drugs? Meh. People want to hypothesize about the day someone dies because their opponent was on something, but…guess what? It hasn’t happened, and it probably won’t happen.
Loaded gloves have killed men in combat sports though, which is why it is and should be stigmatized to a higher degree.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
You know, there's a real difference from your breed of fandom and mine.
I want the fighters I like to win, same as you. But I’d also prefer if they avoided the kind of serious health problems associated with that kind of steroid abuse. Silly me.
I don’t think you’ll ever find a case of me arguing that somebody is going to get so roided up that they turn into the fist of the north star and just start knocking people’s heads off. I’ve never raised the “death in the ring” argument. That’s not my concern. My concern is that fighters that want to fight clean should have a right to fair competition.
And this laissez-faire attitude of yours certainly doesn’t promote the health of the fighters or the long-term health of the sport.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
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by jemaleddin on Aug 16, 2010 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed.
I don’t want the floodgates opened, and I hate it when people on the Internet that have ever been in a professional fight paint every fighter as a steroid user. Say it to their faces, says I.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Aug 16, 2010 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah!
When people cheat and break the law, we shouldn’t get upset. FREE THAT PHARMACIST!
This guy for president!
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
This is kind of beside the point, but I feel really bad for Sean Sherk. He keeps hurting himself because he works so hard, and his body can’t keep up without steroids. I think the sooner they legalize and regulate all this shit, the better.
...like young thieves in a glowing orchard, loosely jacketed against the cold and ten thousand worlds for the choosing.
- C. McCarthy
My problem is that I can't feel too much sympathy for Sherk because I don't care for his fighting style.
I don’t have anything against the guy personally (except the steroids), but it’s hard for me to want to jump to his defense when I don’t have any desire to watch him fight.
Unless he’s going to fight BJ again – that was awesome. :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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Come on, you didn’t like the Tyson fight?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 16, 2010 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions
That wasn't bad - not as good as BJ though.
That look when he’s on the floor and BJ tells the ref that he’s done and you can see him thinking, “yeah, that’s about right” is beautiful.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Well Stated. Like I say with the way Growth Hormones are/are not detected, its basically at the point of No Return in ridding the sports community(s) if them fully. Too many people will always be trying to get an edge up, Heal an injury, want to be better ect. ect. Testing is NOT where or even close as to where it should be and frankly, too many people overreact on things that really have no bearing on them directly or even indirectly, but it gives people something to talk about, so here we are, debating a topic that will probably go on until they either legalize or somehow condone steroids/HGH/And The like or somehow find away to fully test and rid of ALL synth’s, designers and full-on hormones cuz until either happens, its(steroids) here to stay sadly(for some)
For me its kind Meh, I dont condone it, nor do I think its really that detrimental to the outcome of a fight tbh, I do however like to read an partake in a debate that can an does get so many peeps irate to a point but yet ellicit some really good points.
How do you Know where Im at? If you dont Know where Ive been...Understand where Im coming from??
and you bring up another point
Leben, Sherk, Franca- THEY ALL LOST DESPITE STEROIDS
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 16, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait, Sherk and Franca were in the same fight.
They can’t BOTH lose the same fight. And unless you think that Sherk had never used steroids before that, he probably won a lot on steroids.
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As well as Kimo, Bonnar, Vitor,
Kit Cope, Baroni, Warpath, Alexandre Noguiera, Sidelnikov, and Randleman. All losses when they got caught.
Steroids are not a sure-fire way to win. Although Sherk actually won when he got popped, so you might wanna correct that.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
The problem is that because so many people get away with it...
…we don’t know how many of those guys won how many fights on steroids.
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and i don’t think it should matter.
its like saying bobby abreu on the same substances as Barry Bonds would have had the same results. It is still the individual. Steroids don’t make you go from a c or b level fighter to GSP. they’re a small factor, much smaller than most are willing to admit.
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 16, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it depends on the nature of your game.
Strength is always a useful thing, but wrestlers that like to maintain top control may have more need of it than BJJ guys that work best from their guard. No?
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there you go again......
steroids don’t make you stronger then the someone that is not taking steroids with out making you heavier. so if people are at the same relative weights there shouldn’t be a huge strength gap.
Lots of people use steroids to cut weight...
…by burning fat. So they’ll be stronger than someone at the same weight (generally speaking).
In fact, Nandralone – the stuff Sherk was caught using – is generally used that way. Considering how similar he looked size-wise at 170 and 155…
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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Nandralone-The muscle building effect of this drug is quite noticeable, but not dramatic.
The classic Deca and Dianabol cycle has been a basic for decades, and always seems to provide excellent muscle growth.
well thats what “the google box just told me”
Sometimes you have to...
…go deeper.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
yeah, i forgot that it was during the tainted title fight.
however, i believe sean when he says he wasn’t using. OTC supps back in those days were unbelievably unregulated, such as the Andro that McGuire used.
the point i was trying to make i feel still stands though.
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 16, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
What I think is going to happen
Is Carwin waits a little bit and comes out with a huge “I was a weak minded athlete just trying to make it to the big league stories.” It’ll be a huge ordeal of yes I did it but I am clean now, just look at my spotless record. He’ll apologize to the fans and the UFC and his family and friends and attempt to make the best out of this, while covering his own ass best he can.
"If I woke up looking like that, I would run towards the nearest living thing and kill it." -Master Shake
We have to take the amulet to the banana king!
It sends a message to the public that the UFC may not be as squeaky-clean as it touts itself to be, and it sends a message to prospective fighters that one of the quickest ways to the top is through the juice, considering how quickly Carwin skyrocketed to the top of the pecking order and found himself challenging for a championship.
Honestly, is there ANYONE who believes that Brock Lesnar was not, at some point in the past 10 years, on steroids?
Anyone?
No? Then why would this have the slightest effect on MMA? Shane Carwin getting some roids delivered 5 years ago, before he was even in the UFC will not change anyone’s opinion of the sport. And when the casuals love Brock Lesnar, mere allegations are going to do squat. Hell, most fans would just consider it evening the playing field. Until somebody gets caught pissing hot, nobody will really care. The fans seem to have a “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” policy when it comes to steroids. They don’t really want heavy investigation, and they don’t want to know. They just want people to keep it on the DL. The real sin is getting sloppy enough to get exposed.
"an excellent example of why most MMA "journalism" is a joke. Pseudonyms like "toxic" and shitty writing like that dopey article"--- Joe Rogan.
There are plenty of people who will tell you that while they won't argue that Brock wasn't...
…they’ll curse you and call you a hater for implying that he was. I don’t really understand the logic.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
The only reason people suspect Lesnar is because he was in the WWE
There has never been any implication in a steroid trial, anyone coming out saying he juiced. Nothing. No failed tests. Nothing.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 16, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
ha
there has been implication back to college. and if you think the wwe would actually make public real tests, or if they actually conduct real tests, you’re reaching.
The reason i suspect him is because he suplexes great whites easily.
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 16, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Well
Seeing as how you’re a doctor and all..
Wait, you don’t have any medical background and you’re diagnosing people you’ve never met? Ok.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 16, 2010 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions
SS
Yeah. Nothing.
"an excellent example of why most MMA "journalism" is a joke. Pseudonyms like "toxic" and shitty writing like that dopey article"--- Joe Rogan.
"an excellent example of why most MMA "journalism" is a joke. Pseudonyms like "toxic" and shitty writing like that dopey article"--- Joe Rogan.
See, big muscles, little pecker
and a pose worthy of an Affliktion shirt. He is on roids.
Hehe If so, it didnt help with this 
How do you Know where Im at? If you dont Know where Ive been...Understand where Im coming from??
How can you njot be injured after such jump? Crazy…
"...ride life straight to perfect laughter,
it's the only good fight there is."
by dancingChicken on Aug 17, 2010 5:18 AM EDT up reply actions
And how the fuck a 300 lbs man can perform a jump like that?
"...ride life straight to perfect laughter,
it's the only good fight there is."
by dancingChicken on Aug 17, 2010 5:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Spinach.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Do you think that it’ll hinder my performance if I’ll add garlic to the spinach?
"...ride life straight to perfect laughter,
it's the only good fight there is."
by dancingChicken on Aug 17, 2010 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Dunno
What are you performing? Swan lake?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
I want to do something like this, only with a 360° rotation
"...ride life straight to perfect laughter,
it's the only good fight there is."
by dancingChicken on Aug 17, 2010 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Shit, garlic is your friend, man.
If that guy had garlic, he’d have looked like Chael doing the monkey roll!
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Ah yes Brock when he was lifting weights to build muscle for show
and not for function. And didn’t have to worry about making 265. He MUST be juicing.
And the photo is not shopped and he is not tanned to show off definition
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 16, 2010 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions
“If I can’t look like than, then no one can without cheating”
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 16, 2010 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions
He is noticeably more defined in some pictures.
And in some he’s making his “O” face. :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
i’m not saying he wasn’t using, but the pictures don’t prove anything. Then his job was to look like that, now his job is to beat people up.
See Phildo, this is what I’m talking about. Brock was in the pro wrestling world—- using steroids isn’t even cheating when its not a sport. Steroid use is rampant in pro wrestling, not only because they need to look great, they also need to stay healthy because they are on tour doing shows for most of the year.
This is exactly the don’t ask don’t tell fan attitude I’m talking about. It’s pretty obvious that a huge musclebound guy working in an organization with rampant steroid use (and where it isn’t even cheating since its scripted), who has to stay healthy and bulked up despite a brutal travel schedule, more likely than not used steroids. I mean, its just common sense. He’d nearly HAVE too, just to keep up.
I don’t KNOW that he used steroids, but c’mon. Just c’mon.
"an excellent example of why most MMA "journalism" is a joke. Pseudonyms like "toxic" and shitty writing like that dopey article"--- Joe Rogan.
by toxic on Aug 17, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He honestly looks the same as he does now
Just he’s flabbier now. Maybe 10-15 lbs less muscle. This is in Japan. He had already started lightly trainin MMA. And he’s flexing.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 16, 2010 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
It's the flabbier that tells me that he's not doing now what he was doing then.
What either of those things are is anyone’s guess.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Or his muscles aren't for "show"
Who needs big bulky muscles in an actual sport? In wrestling, it’s all cosmetic. You don’t need muscles. I mean look at Yokozuna.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 17, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Oliver Saenz and Nick Coman really make themselves out to be jackasses here.
Saenz:
“It sends a message to the public that the UFC may not be as squeaky-clean as it touts itself to be.”
Anyone who thinks any professional sport, let alone MMA, is not rife with some sort of cheating or rule-bending really needs to have their head examined.
“I think there’s a very real possibility that the media will take this, spin it, blow it out of proportion, and get so many people riled up that the UFC has no choice but to give Carwin the axe.”
Really? Because Sean Sherk and Chris Leben both TESTED POSITIVE for steroids while under contract and maintained said contracts.
Coman:
“It’s just too hard to not lump the UFC in with the WWE when Carwin and (Kurt) Angle are listed in the same police report.”
You fucking twat. It’s not hard to lump the UFC with Major League Baseball and the National Football League either, since, you know, they’ve had plenty of cases of this very same thing.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
by Mike Fagan on Aug 16, 2010 3:05 PM EDT reply actions 8 recs
Thats because for some unknown reason MLB an NFL have already had their fair share of the headlines an it no longer draws or piques the average joes interest, but you Mention especially MMA and Wrestling that has been ingrained into the youths of yesteryear, and there hasnt been as much Fallout, even though the deathrates of Pro wrestlers is astronomical and some serious crazy shit went down when Chris Benoit Did his dirty deed an the Doctors/Pharmacists were caught in another HUGE scandal, there is rarely any Real Headline, mainstream news on MMA or Wrestling these days so shit like this tends to get the interest that Media loves and wants so bad. Even if it is utter bullshit an Propaganda at times…
How do you Know where Im at? If you dont Know where Ive been...Understand where Im coming from??
greening this
for awesome, apt use of the phrase “you fcking twat”
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 16, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Mike Fagan smash
...like young thieves in a glowing orchard, loosely jacketed against the cold and ten thousand worlds for the choosing.
- C. McCarthy
Thanks for not shitting on me
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 16, 2010 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Admit it: you feel left out.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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As a big Miguel Cotto fan
I wouldn’t exactly equate roids to plaster.
I throw raps that attack like the Japs on Pearl Harbor/MC's be out like bank robbers/Fleeing the scene, to be a sole survivor/DJ the getaway driver/Tried to dip but he dive, I socialize on vocal vibes/On tracks stabbed up with razor sharp knives
by Anthony Pace on Aug 16, 2010 3:27 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Now that Shane is in the limelight
Can we make fun of his baby bicep? I know its from a tear, but in that picture it looks so funny.
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
Nothing is going to happen to Shane
He’s not going to get cut (the UFC gifting a top three HW to another org? No.) .
He’s not indicted and from the reports, he won’t, so there is no criminal action to punish (unless “innocent til proven guilty” has left the building), and this mess timelines before Shane was in the UFC.
Did he juice? Yeah, I think he did. But my opinion, and yours, and even Dana’s isn’t going to circumvent the facts above.
He hasnt been on roids since he Joined the UFC
Look on youtube at his fights prior to the UFC he was Super Pro wrestler yolked…….Even thougn he is still a big guy now you can see the difference.I bet he was definitely using the roids back in 06 .But I do not think that is what propelled him to the top since 08 it was pure punching power Period!
...or he had to start getting more careful and his larger purses meant more high tech/expensive stuff.
You know, for the sake of argument.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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Except he was much larger back then, reportedly close to 300 pounds
And he was mid-to-low 250s in his UFC debut. Not proof, but certainly what would be expected of someone going from being a user to no longer being a user…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 17, 2010 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually, that totally fits the scenario
He joins the UFC, realizes he’s facing greater scrutiny, goes clean for a while, then his increased purses and sponsorship money allow him to move up to drugs he’s less likely to get busted for.
No?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
That is completely possible
Without accusing him (then or now), I commented about that when I read where he said he was at 285+ (I believe it was) while preparing for Lesnar.
It is very possible that he uses either so-called “designer drugs” which are often just analogs of existing drugs or that he used more conventional drugs and cycled off in time. There are a few oil-based steroids that stay in your system for a long time (as much as 2 years for some), but others, especially the oral varieties, that leave your system fairly quickly.
In addition to the various hormones and prohormones, there are other PEDs which are used for their anabolic (or anabolic-like) properties such as hGH and insulin as well as various “natural” products with anabolic benefits such as ecdysterone, methoxyisoflavone and ipriflavone which are pretty widely used by those subject to drug testing.
There are others, rx and otherwise that I won’t mention by name, some due to their use being on the down-low, but most because they are too dangerous and I don’t want to feel responsible for that in a public forum (same reason I won’t better explain dehydration/rehydration weight cutting techniques in detail).
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 17, 2010 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm really glad that this argument has gone on long enough...
That we’ve gotten people expressing both the:
- “Everybody’s doing it!”
…and the:
- “It doesn’t really help!”
…arguments. I guess these folks think that everybody in MMA is an idiot.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
we still haven't heard you list the
actual negative health impacts of steroids.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
You can hit 60+ homeruns
and get $75 million contracts.
Cue someone listing a bunch of dead pro wrestlers with Ken Caminiti in 3…2…1…
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 16, 2010 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
most of those guys
had massive head injuries and pain killer addictions.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
"Most" is a neat word.
Not much of a contradiction word though for these purposes.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Do you want me to?
Should I mention the male pattern baldness and Shane’s hairline? The liver cysts? The heart problems?
Because if we go down that road, we’re inevitably going to have to talk about Shane’s junk. And that’s not a world I want to live in.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
The problems are still multi-faceted
The ignorance among most users, the lack of medical oversight and, probably most importantly, the fact that when you buy black market shit you have NO idea what it really is, what is in it, when it expires, if it has been stored correctly, etc, etc, etc.
While not harmless, there would be far, far fewer problems resulting from their use if they were able to be correctly prescribed, used and monitored. Yes, you would still have guys taking 10x the amount they should, for perhaps an additional 10-15% gain, but the majority of the issues would go away.
Then again, the same arguement can be made for legalization of most illegal drugs…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 17, 2010 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions
This is different
You can be for categorical legalization of all drugs and still want them banned for MMA competitors. I can want pot legalized and still prefer airline pilots not to toke up before taking off.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 17, 2010 3:04 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree
I am in favor of their legalization, but just because they’re legal doesn’t mean they would (or should) be allowed in competitive sports.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 17, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Good to see that i’m not the only one here that is shaking his head at the ridiculous reaching that these writers are doing in this piece. Talk about the sky is falling bs, the world wouldn’t have ended if Carwin won the belt and this came out considering it was years ago. And nobody is trying to make mma some sort of ultra clean sport, seriously take a step back and bring the hyperbole down a few notches it makes you sound insane.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
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