UFC 118 Preview: James Toney Not The First Boxer to Try His Hand at MMA-It All Started With Muhammad Ali
While Zuffa is heavily hyping the battle between James Toney and Randy Couture at UFC 118 as the first high profile clash between a boxer and a martial artist in MMA history, there have actually been a handful of seminal contests between the sweet science and cage fighting's best. The first, and most influential, happened all the way back in 1976 and starred the best heavyweight boxer of all time, Muhammad Ali, and Japan's most famous pro wrestler, Antonio Inoki. Fighter's Only breaks it down:
In 1976 "The Greatest" was in his second reign as world heavyweight champion. In the previous two years he had defeated the likes of George Foreman and Joe Frazier. On June 26 he engaged in a battle with a Japanese professional wrestler called Antonio Inoki at the Budokan Arena, Tokyo. For all the wrong reasons their encounter would become almost as famous as ‘The Rumble in the Jungle' and in ‘The Thriller in Manila'.
The fight was actually supposed to be a professional wrestling match. While many in the boxing media questioned Ali's decision to take the match, feeling professional wrestling would sully his reputation, there were six million reasons for him to do so. Before this fight, Ali's biggest boxing pay day had been just $5 million. A fake pro wrestling match with Inoki would bring in more than that-without the risk of being punched in the head repeatedly.The plan was simple. Ali would dominate Inoki and make him bleed with punches. Concerned for his downed opponent, Ali would ask the referee to stop the fight. While his back was turned, Inoki would strike-kicking him in the back of the head with his famous enzuigiri kick. Ali would look strong and be the hero, despite losing. Inoki would carve out a niche as a foreign villian on a planned tour of America's wrestling hotbeds.
It seemed to Ali like a lot of fun. He went on the road to promote the bout and had plenty of yukks at the expense of Inoki and his unusual look, especially his trademark Jay Leno-esque chin. Then something changed. Ali had second thoughts, started thinking about his legacy and his reputation. Things went from simple to simply weird overnight, as Dave Meltzer explained:
The match was supposed to be scripted, with Ali losing. At the last minute, Ali got cold feet and the match almost fell apart. To save the event, Inoki agreed to fight for real, with a rule set that was akin to fighting in a straitjacket. Inoki couldn’t punch because he wasn’t wearing gloves. He couldn’t kick while standing. He couldn’t use throws, nor use any submissions. So he spent 15 rounds laying on his back throwing kicks to Ali’s legs. The match, officially called a draw, was a farce, but in Japan it is considered one of the most famous pro wrestling matches ever, as well as the birth of mixed martial arts.
At the time, the show was considered a disaster. It bombed at the box office and Inoki's reputation was in shambles in his home country of Japan. Eventually he would rehabilitate his image, adding other legitimate combat sports athletes to his list of victims in worked fights, and go down in history as one of the fathers of MMA. But that would be in time.
Ali never collected his six million. He had to settle for $2.1 million and was lucky to get even that considering the financial losses. Worse, physically he was never the same. Inoki's 65 leg kicks took their toll. Ali was hosipitilzed after the fight and was never the same boxer again. His legs were gone-his mental faculties would soon follow.
See a great highlight of the Inoki-Ali fiasco after the break. Jonathan Snowden is the author of Total MMA: Inside Ultimate Fighting and the upcoming MMA Encyclopedia.
Muhammad Ali vs Inoki Before and After (via thierrykhanry)
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I think I remember reading that Snowden is pretty positive that Lebell vs Savage was a work.
"Caol Uno was like Mutoh. He developed into a star overseas and then returned to his home country a much bigger deal. Dokonjonosuke Mishima is like Kobashi because they both do moonsaults. Don Frye is like Stan Hansen because they are both fat dumb rednecks with mustaches." - Jonathan Snowden
by RagingNoodles on Aug 16, 2010 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I can't recall the specifities
but if it wasn’t fully worked, it was highly dubious
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
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by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 16, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
The Fight Nerd does a great job of profiling the fight between LeBell and Savage, which can be seen here (he includes footage of the fight in his synopsis):
http://www.thefightnerd.com/mma-history-gene-lebell-vs-milo-savage-1963/
The Fight Nerd mentions nothing of the fight being a "work", and if you want my personal opinion, the fight looked pretty legitimate to me. If anything, the fight between Ali and Inoki sounds like more of a "work", being that the rules made it virtually impossible for Inoki to win.
I've covered that fight as well
LeBell claims that not only was it not a work, but Savage loaded his gloves.
Here’s my piece: Happy Belated Birthday Gene LeBell
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Ali has gotta be one of the dumbest people to ever single-handedly shape mankind so much. He made so many bad decisions that later became cultural snapshots.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 16, 2010 12:53 PM EDT reply actions
Dumb is the wrong word.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
What word? Naive? Impulsive? Stubborn?
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 16, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously. I’m curious.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 16, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know
Making terrible decisions isn’t the same thing as dumb. People make bad decisions for a million reasons – being dumb is only one of them.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
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True
I think Ali had gotten to big for his britches and let his mouth put him in some terrible situations that really had no good way of escaping.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 16, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Well that's for damn sure.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Ali is borderline retarded.
He had an IQ of 78 and originally failed to meet the military IQ standard.
Dumb is the correct, even nice word.
If you think that IQ tests only measure intelligence,
…then I know somebody we can add to the list of dumb people. :-)
Let’s not get into a whole IQ thing – just believe me when I say that my son took two common, reliable IQ tests and got an 83 and a 119. Neither of these scores adequately reflects his actual intelligence in any way. And if they both did, would you put him in a gifted and talented special ed class?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
by jemaleddin on Aug 16, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Just had this conversation last night.
IQ is a joke.
Intelligence is extremely hard to define and exponentially harder to quantify.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 16, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
See, this is why I don't like dumb.
I mean here’s the thing: when it comes to IQ, I’m smarter than Anderson Silva. I don’t have any doubt about that – my parents spent my entire childhood moving around from state to state which meant that every school wanted me to take another IQ test. And I’m VERY good at taking tests.
But Anderson (barring rib injuries :-) ) is MUCH smarter than me in any number of ways.The way that he analyzes and reacts to strikes requires a special kind of mind – a special kind of thinking. And while it’d be nice to pretend that those are learned skills and we could all pick them up, that’s just not the case. Some people have minds that are suited to this kind of thing. Calling these things physical gifts is just plain silly.
Athletic achievement is ABSOLUTELY a kind of intelligence, and calling Ali “dumb” is inaccurate. Could I kick his ass at a spelling bee? Sure. But I could never be the kind of fighter he is.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Ali would probably be smarter than you in other ways
Including social and interpersonal skills.
BTW, not singling you out, he would be better than a lot of people, including myself.
Oh for sure.
Have you seeeeen how many people hate me around here? :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
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I
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
I was going to say smart...
…but my butter fingers prove that I’m dumb.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Yeah, poor choice of words.
In no way could Ali be dumb, in the general connotative sense of being unable to speak or lacking general intelligence. Clearly, there are many many different types of intelligence. Not only that, our understanding of intelligence changes by the day. That’s not the debate here.
Some of his decision making was definitely dumb. No matter how you look at it, losing $4M and destroying you’re legs in a pro wrestling snafu is dumb. Not brave, not genius.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 16, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
I don’t want to flat out call him stupid, but its pretty obvious that he was in way over his head so many times, with all kind of dangerous people.
Somehow, Ali made it out alive and with something to call his own. That’s why he’s a hero. Just crazy that a country boy with intelligence and resources was able to become one of the influential people of all time.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 16, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Being over your head as a black man in the 1960's
was probably not too hard to achieve(assuming you’re also alluding to his draft refusal as one of his “bad” decisions). I would use the words arrogant, and also courageous to describe him, ie. he got himself into situations because of both, but then stuck it out in each case, and suffered the consequences.
If you watch some of the interviews that he had ( a brief one is in the movie “when we were kings”) he is actually extremeley articulate for anyone, let alone your avaerage boxer.
Being over your head as a black man in the 1960's
was probably not too hard to achieve(assuming you’re also alluding to his draft refusal as one of his “bad” decisions). I would use the words arrogant, and also courageous to describe him, ie. he got himself into situations because of both, but then stuck it out in each case, and suffered the consequences.
If you watch some of the interviews that he had ( a brief one is in the movie “when we were kings”) he is actually extremeley articulate for anyone, let alone your avaerage boxer.
He got in over his head with the Black Muslims
and the Nation of Islam.
Ali’s mouth was his biggest asset and a liability. He had the ability to talk his way into anything. He couldn’t talk his way out, though.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 16, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Why would you say he got in over his head?
Not condoning nation of Islam, but in the long run, that did not have much of an impact on his career as his draft refusal and subsequent ban did. You could argue he was very courageous, a lot of people do.
He did walk into a lot, but the guy backed it up too. Going 15 rounds with a broken jaw with Ken Norton isn’t for every one.
Why would you say he got in over his head?
Not condoning nation of Islam, but in the long run, that did not have much of an impact on his career as his draft refusal and subsequent ban did. You could argue he was very courageous, a lot of people do.
He did walk into a lot, but the guy backed it up too. Going 15 rounds with a broken jaw with Ken Norton isn’t for every one.
That's the problem.
He was courageous, but his mind and body have paid the price.
There’s talk that Ali was on eggshells with The Nation, if he said or did the wrong thing they were waiting to pounce on him.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 16, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
The NOI was run by a con man
who tapped into centuries of repression and rage that existed in the black community, IMO.
Ali did not always see eye to eye with them. But they needed him, as he was their biggest celebrity convert of the day by far, kind of like the Tom Cruise of his day!
He did pay the price, but I wouldn’t call that dumb, unless he didn’t realize the consequences, and we have no proof of that.
Dumb is a badword to describe Ali.
Naive and arrogant is probably better.
Name an organization not ran by a con man. :)
When you’re good, no one ever knows they’ve been conned.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 16, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
No argument here
On those points, without getting into the whole religion argument :)
Also, agree on arrogant, and naive, I think he almost had a child like quality to him, call it innocent, naive, or just immature….
Exactly
Ali had that childish joy in him. He didn’t see limitations like adults do, just went out there and said whatever he wanted to. A lot of the time, he didn’t even really know what he was saying. He just felt like saying it.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 16, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah man...
Agree that he said what came to his mind…. at the same time, I would argue that a lot of the time, he did know what he was saying. Maybe not the full consequences, but he probably had an idea that he was getting himself into some kind of shitty predicament. However, he was arrogant enough to think he could survive/beat anything, which is likely one of the keys to his greatness as a boxer.
Yeah
You gotta be pretty to dumb to be good boxer :)
That’s what I mean, he didn’t know the full extent of what he said. Just like a kid trying to ruffle some feathers, not realizing the trouble he was getting into.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 16, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I think we generally agree
You could say you would have to be pretty dumb to be a good linebacker, running back, aerial skier, bobsledder, etc…
That’s how a lot of the self-help gurus make their big bucks, trying to sell people on the child-like “can-do” naivete as opposed to the more adult, “Hell no! I can’t do that”. :)
Its the only reason I wake up.
If I allowed myself to become a prisoner of limitations you’ve placed on me, than I’m only a slave. If I allow myself to become prisoner of limitations I have imposed on me, then I am a slave and a fool as well.- Farnsworth
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 16, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Indeed :)
I should add. I have no children. They seem like a good motivator, better than money.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 16, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
If it's up do debate who the greatest boxer is,
there’s absolutely no debate who the greatest fight-seller was.
I can only imagine the PPV buys Ali would generate with his epic trash talking. Those would be some insane numbers.
by KenCanFightBear on Aug 16, 2010 12:53 PM EDT reply actions
Not even close
Ali was without a doubt the best fighter seller in history, he gathered more of the general public and everyone involved made far more money that Sonnen could ever dream about.
True, but the article only says Ali was the best Heavyweight boxer
Which, while still debateable, would have Ali ranked #1 on a lot more lists than if it had said p4p.
by WarToney on Aug 16, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
He was the greatest heavyweight of all time, that is fairly well documented among the historians
But not the greatest P4P, that distinction goes to Sugar Ray Robinson.
Hard to argue against him.
Its a shame Marciano had to beat an American hero into retirement.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 16, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes,
and even worse that Joe had to scrape by as a casino greeter to survive.One of the great stories in boxing is the friendship between Max Schmeling and Joe, and how Max always helped Joe out when asked, especially amazing in light of Joe revenging his shocking defeat to Max via a brutal beating. Max went on to become a multi-millionaire, Joe died penniless.
Have you seen the filmed “fantasy fight” with Ali and Marciano?
Sad as a hell.
Hard to believe we let our heroes go out that way.
Haven’t seen the film. Sounds like something I should watch.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 16, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 16, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Why have I never heard of this before?
Did that fight not count?
It seemed like Ali was outclassing him easily when he decided to avoid the punches. Weird fight. Marciano kicked his ass. Still can’t believe it.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 16, 2010 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL
I knew it was fake…… :P
It really did seem like the twilight zone. I thought it was an exhibition and Ali threw it. Now I see why the sound was so good. lol
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 16, 2010 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes
it was a simulation for a “Who was the Greatest” promo. They filmed different endings for suspense. It still is a mind-blower to see real-life Rocky and Ali sharing a ring, though, Rocky died that year in a plane crash.
I'm pretty stoned
so yeah, it was bad ass.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 16, 2010 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Joe Louis?
That’s defensible as a statement, but not really when based on standard of competion. Consider that Ali fought in what was absolutely the deepest era of the Heavyweight division, and dominated it.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Aug 16, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Even the "Bum of the Month"
club were mainly top ten fighters; Joe made them look like bums.He thoroughly dominated his competition. Ali had a tough time with sluggers. He beat, but got some rough moments from Frazier, Shavers, Chuvalo, Ellis, Bugner, and he didn’t exactly face a “murderers row” of competition in any era. And unlike Louis, who was a vicious puncher and finisher, Ali went the distance, or far too long, with a lot of mediocre fighters.
Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Shavers and Norton
is the definition of a murderer’s row. 3 of those guys are among the top 10 heavyweights of all time.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Yup
Not too mention a tonne of very, very good, but not great, competition from the likes of Cooper and Chuvalo.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Aug 16, 2010 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
Ali did have a higher caliber of opponents, I just don’t think he dominated like Louis did and would have with the same fighters.
Ali was my childhood hero; I followed him ardently. He is the #2 to me in Boxing’s HW ranking, but #1 as a personal favorite.
And Frazier, Shavers and Norton
all beat the hell out of him. Norton broke his jaw, Frazier beat him once and put him in the hospital another time, and Ali said Shavers hit him harder than anyone he ever fought. Foreman was Liston redux; heavy handed, fearsome, but slower than Ali and tailor made for his quickness and endurance.
I think Joe would have beat all them faster, except Foreman. Joe was a vicious puncher, the advantage that Foreman had that destroyed Frazier and Norton and would have done in “The Acorn” Shavers if they had fought, and Joe was also great defensively, the slipperyest fighter at his weight ever,
I don't know which Joe Louis fights you were watching
But his Defense was deplorable. Did you see the 1st Schmeling fight?. Schmeling could not miss with his right hand. And have you ever heard of Tony “Two ton” Galento?. Well, he rattled Louis and knocked him down before finally tiring out his 5’9, 235lb body.
The reason that most of the worlds top historians favor Ali/Clay was because they all believe when in his prime(which would have been around the time he beat Liston for the 2nd time, And Patterson, Chuvalo and Cooper in 66). That he would have been most likely to beat every other heavyweight in their prime.
Indeed
Tony Galento was an alcoholic who worked a full time job, and fitted in his “training” around that. He ate hugely, and never took boxing seriously. He once turned up to a fight drunk, after stopping off for a meal on the way to a fight.
If you’ve watched Galento fight, you’ll see why Louis getting dropped by him is worse than Ali taking a few knocks from damn good fighters.
Louis would have been murdered by Frazier, and I doubt the could have stood up to much from Foreman!
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Aug 17, 2010 7:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Frazier
was 205 pounds in his first Ali fight. He should have been a light heavy. He was skilled, but against a heavy-handed puncher he got destroyed. Foreman lit him up in a couple of rounds, and I thought Frazier could have died in either fight.
Abe Simon was the size and power of Foreman, but like Foreman, not fast enough for Joe Louis.
Frazier was undersized
But his only losses were to Foreman and Ali, not bad for a blown up middleweight huh?
And Joe
destroyed Schmeling in a round in the rematch. Sometimes you have an off-fight, or off-match-up. It took 65 power punches from Max to take Joe down in that first fight.
Ever hear of Buddy Baer? Max Baer? Both these guys were huge, Buddy the size of Lennox Lewis with a 50-5 record, and Louis crushed him twice. Max was the size of Ali in his prime and had never been off his feet, and again Louis destroyed him.
Let’s not compare bad matches with a fighter who was dragged into the late rounds by Chuck Wepner and Tex Cobb.
Those matches hardly count
Considering how faded Ali was. When we start saying that frazier isn’t a more credible win than anyone Louis faced, I’m out.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Aug 17, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Check your history again Dootch
Ali never fought Tex Cobb. Not that he did’nt fight his share of bums. But at least he mixed in real ranked fighters in between and never had a “Bum of the month” tour!
Anyone watched the whole fight?
"...ride life straight to perfect laughter,
it's the only good fight there is."
by dancingChicken on Aug 16, 2010 12:55 PM EDT reply actions
THE FIGHT WAS A WORK
They had it end in a draw to make it palatable to both fighters and the japanese crowd, who love draws. To say this was boxings first foray into MMA is a joke. It was more of a pro wrestling gimmick.
This fight is not a work. The idea is laughable.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 16, 2010 1:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
nope
this is probably the only one of Inoki’s bouts with stars of other combat sports that is NOT a work. Who would write such a boring shitty, stupid looking work? And one that did serious injury to Ali?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
“OK, Muhammed. I’m gonna flop on the deck and kick the fuck out of you’re legs. You’re gonna run around all panicked. That’ll be good for the cameras.”.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 16, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
All the literature i've seen to this point points to it being worked
The Ali fiasco was carefully staged. The main concern was to not injure Ali, causing Inoki to complain that by the rules and this concern there was damn little that he could do to make it look good.
From: http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsdraeger_alivsinoki.htm
Some said it was a work as it was the only way Ali would agree to the fight. Ali’s corner insisted that multiple new rules be implemented just shortly before the fight. Inoki could not grapple with Ali and kicks could only be thrown when Inoki was on the ground.
From: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/97879-long-before-the-ufc-the-wwe-started-mma
Look, the fight isn’t worked. I’ve talked to people from both camps who were there. No one with any credibility says it was worked and neither quote you’ve provided suggests otherwise.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 16, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I have no reason to doubt what you. I’m just saying that I have encountered a lot of literature that says otherwise.
But the things you’ve posted don’t indicate that at all. I’ve read Draeger’s correspondence and he wasn’t speculating it was a work. He was talking about how unfair the rules for the actual fight made things for Inoki.
The other article you cite is from the Bleacher Report crediting Vince McMahon Jr. with starting the MMA movement. I don’t think I’d hang my hat on that…
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 16, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I read somewhere that Ali and his manager were about to walk away from the fight because the rules were too crazy. Then someone from the other side came back and offered an amazing money offer so they accepted the fight. This is why it looks silly.
Whaaassssuppp?
For more info
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%A2%E3%83%B3%E3%83%88%E3%83%8B%E3%82%AA%E7%8C%AA%E6%9C%A8%E5%AF%BE%E3%83%A2%E3%83%8F%E3%83%A1%E3%83%89%E3%83%BB%E3%82%A2%E3%83%AA
Japanese Wikipedia page for the fight
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/nov/11/the-forgotten-story-of-ali-inoki
Article on the fight.
Well, this makes my story on it look small-time.
My avatar has Bas Rutten and Terry Funk in it...therefore it's the manliest avatar on SB Nation.
“While Zuffa is heavily hyping the battle between James Toney and Randy Couture at UFC 118 as the first high profile clash between a boxer and a martial artist in MMA history, there have actually been a handful of seminal contests between the sweet science and cage fighting’s best.”
Well ok….then the battle between James Toney and Randy Couture is the first high profile clash between a boxer and a mixed martial artist in “recent” MMA history. Whatever the hell that was back then bears little resemblance to today.
Even better, the battle between James Toney and Randy Couture is yet another freakshow between an MMA fighter and a boxer. Nothing new, nothing really special, no question will be answered this night, the issue of this bout will be irrelevant to both boxing and MMA, enjoy the show.
I'm a lover not a fighter
This series isn’t done. Hang in there.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 16, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Tarnish Ali's reputation.
As far as being an elite fighter, most likely. As far as his personal reputation I don’t think a staged wrestling match could have hurt his already shoddy reputation. He was a very polarizing figure. These days he’d be hard pressed to explain away his racial issues.
That's the whole point dude...
1960’s was not “these days”, completely different times.
I'm sure you've seen the press conference where he is telling off his investors.
The evil white guys that helped him get to his goal of the championship. Yes, they did it for personal gain, but without them, who knows. A lot of talented guys never get positioned because of politics. He was a cock for that and the war thing. Just MHO. And yeah, justice just pours from drinking fountains now. Like all the white fire fighters and state cops that screwed out of promotions for affirmative actions.
I’ve read Sting like a Bee, watched his movie, and a few others I can’t remember off hand. I also read Fraziers bio and REALLY thought Ali was a cock after that. Fraziers kids were beaten up and cheap shotted on the football field because of Alis b.s. self promo. Fraziers whole family had to deal with threats from his own peeps due to Alis antics.
yeah
it was a lot harder to complain about “reverse racism” in the 1960s when Bull Conner was still siccing attack dogs on little old ladies who wanted to eat at the same restaurants as white people.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I hate when people say
“Like we did in the 50’s” etc..
Like the world was perfect and justice poured from drinking fountains. Maybe it did, just whites only fountains. :)
I just want to scream: PICK UP A BOOK!!!!!!
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 16, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
It's just very short sighted
to think of historic figures in the context of current societal norms, as opposed to their time period in history. And make no mistake, Ali was more than just a boxer, like him or not, the guy was a historical figure.
Jefferson could have never got elected today.
His wig is too gaudy.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 16, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Today's Tabloids would have a huge field day
with his extra-curricular activities! Front page Enquirer, move over John Edwards :P
Does the President have 12 Negro Children?
page 3
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 16, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn’t know where to begin with taz’s comment. Strange, strange words.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 16, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
My words are strange?lol Yours are ban worthy if ever I saw.
Not that I favor censoring anyone. I respect your right to your view, no matter.
What’s strange about thinking a race baiting war dodging, NOI follower is not a person to be worried about reputation. Not to mention the womanizing his muslim beliefs were obviously not worried about. People were finding out back then, they just loved him or hatd him. Like Obama or Clinton, or W. Jesse Jackson is doing his best to be a scumbag but his peeps still just say, “That’s our Jesse”. I’m sick of the whole race hustle. Ali was a founding father of that crap. I loved it when Big George waved his flag while the other guys were fisted up. Always loved him after that no matter.
Eh?
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Aug 17, 2010 7:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Inoki’s 65 leg kicks took their toll. Ali was hosipitilzed after the fight and was never the same boxer again. His legs were gone-his mental faculties would soon follow bq.Blockquoted paragraph
This is factually inaccurate. Ali did not lose his mental faculties. He developed Parkinson’s. Only in late stages (generally years to decades), do Parkinson patients develop cognitive problems.

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