Should the UFC Book Chael Sonnen vs Vitor Belfort While Anderson Silva Is Out With Injuries?
That's what Jake Rossen thinks:
(Chael Sonnen will) be ready to go in November. And, conveniently, so would Vitor Belfort.
Belfort, originally scheduled to fight Silva in April before injury took him out, hasn't fought since September 2009. He's just sitting there, packed in ice, waiting to be unfurled for when the UFC decides it would be convenient to use his shaky status as a top contender. Is he really going to sit out for upwards of 18 months? Why not lend some legitimacy to his status -- he's had not one middleweight fight in the UFC -- by matching him against Sonnen?
There's an argument against, obviously: with Silva having slaughtered most of that division, it makes more financial sense to keep both Belfort and Sonnen circling rather than guarantee one gets eliminated. I get it. But I also get that athletes have a very small window of opportunity to compete, and shelving them because of a champion's injury displays a fairly gross ignorance of that fact. Matching them up against anyone else is disingenuous: they're the No. 1 and No. 2 contenders in the promotion. Who else could Belfort fight that would possibly aid his standing more than Sonnen?
I'm more or less all for this except for one thing.
In the rock-paper-scissors game that is MMA, Sonnen has the exact style that Belfort -- a fighter who relies primarily on his boxing and has weak wrestling and not much of a guard game -- has struggled with throughout his career. Sonnen's Team Quest teammate Dan Henderson took Vitor down at will en route to a one-sided decision in PRIDE in 2006. Randy Couture mauled Vitor so bad in 2004 that some wags still refer to a vicious ground and pound beat down as "a Belfort-ing".
But on the other hand, Belfort made very short work indeed of Sonnen's coach and mentor Matt Lindland at Affliction: Day of Reckoning. So he'll definitely have a puncher's chance.
The alternates are fights for Sonnen that throw him to the wolves -- he just can't handle great submission fighters, something this division is fairly loaded with. I have a recurring vision of Sonnen taking on Rousimar "Tap? What Tap?" Palhares and limping away with no intact ligaments in his knee.
I guess this is a long-winded way of saying, give us Sonnen vs Belfort. May the best man win and go on to face Anderson Silva. There will be no doubt that the winner of Sonnen/Belfort would have earned the title shot.
Let's hear from Dave Meltzer why this makes zero financial sense for the UFC in the full entry.
Of course, that would risk a Sonnen-Silva rematch and as the numbers begin to come in, it's more and more clear that that was a box office bonanza. Dave Meltzer gives the credit to Sonnen in the latest Wrestling Observer (subscription only):
After this week, there's a new phrase in the fight business lexicon. "There's drawing money with promos. And then there's Chael Sonnen."
In the modern history of the fight game, there is nobody who has taken a fight with such little public interest and talked it into a PPV blockbuster the way Sonnen did. You can point to Floyd Mayweather Jr., but Mayweather's fight with Oscar de la Hoya was pegged to be the biggest non-heavyweight fight in history long before the hard promotion of the event took place. Yes, the 24/7 series creating a hero and villain made a big fight into the biggest money fight in history, but nobody single-handedly did it. You had a popular champion who was a huge draw, tremendous mainstream media hype and the creation of the 24/7 series.
Sonnen took a dead fight, with a gifted champion who had never proven to be a draw, with far more limited mainstream publicity and the only television vehicle being a single Countdown show, and the result was one of the ten biggest money fights in UFC history.
...
... (Sonnen) was put in the main event of a show that figured to be the weak draw in a show sandwiched between a show headlined by Brock Lesnar and a show Dana White had been gearing toward for years because it was the debut in his former home town of Boston, and featured the first high profile boxing potential Hall of Famer vs. MMA Hall of Famer in history.As far as weak business was concerned, the big question just before the show started that afternoon in Oakland was has there ever been anyone who has taken a fight that nobody cared about, and through interview after interview, built it into a major fight? By that point everyone knew the show was going to do above average business. There are guys in pro wrestling, MMA and boxing who have made big fights bigger. Some guys have made so-so fights somewhat interesting. But nobody was able to come up with another example of someone who had never headlined, had never been a draw, had a mediocre record, and was going into a match against another non-draw with a bad rep with PPV buyers and turned it into the kind of business that UFC 117 did?
Sonnen is pretty clear that he wants an immediate rematch for the title. His manager Mike Roberts spoke to MMA Fighting:
"We've had talks," Roberts said. "I just had a talk with [the UFC] [Monday] morning. You know, we don't tell them how to do their job. The only thing that we do is tell them what we want, and the simple question was asked, 'What does Chael want?' And Chael's answer was, 'I want to do this again. The party ain't over yet.'
For his part, Belfort is gunning for the title shot too, via MMA Fighting:
At almost exactly the same time, Belfort was taking to cyberspace, telling fans via Twitter, "Now guys I am waiting to hear from Lorenzo [Fertitta] and Dana when I will fight Anderson silva so let's wait and see."
The next day, perhaps sensing that the public narrative was moving away from him and towards a Sonnen-Silva rematch, Belfort was at it again. And this time, it seemed he wasn't as sure.
"Dana please give me the fight that every one want to see. This fight will be the fight of the century. Give me Anderson," he wrote.
There's no doubt that waiting for an immediate title shot (or rematch) is what's in Sonnen and Belfort's interest. Making sure they put on Silva-Sonnen 2 is probably in the UFC's interest. But I'm a fan and I'm interested in seeing Sonnen vs Belfort this November.
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have you watched either guy before? i completely disagree
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 12, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
As well as Randy is the qualifier.
Sonnen has good GnP but no power behind it. If he develops power in his hands he will be a destroyer of men.
I apologize for my never-ending assault on the English Language. I feel like Qui the promoter from Jade Empire...
i think people hate on chaels power alot
i really dont think its that weak, look at the guys hes beaten in the ufc and wec marquadt, okami, miller, filho, anderson silva (for 23 minutes) and bryan baker
now with the exception of baker who i personally have never seen fight all of those guys have cast iron chins i doubt anyone could ground and pound them out in 3 rounds
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
You have to question his power when he is that many dominant positions but can’t finish. Even on the feet he tagged Silva in round 1 with multiple combinations and merely staggered him. So, I think Sonnen has excellent control but lacks the kind of KO power seen in Silva, Marquardt and Belfort.
I’d personally like to see Wanderlei fight Belfort and give the winner a title shot. I also think that it’s time to bring Thiago Alves to MW since he misses 170 in nearly every fight. I wouldn’t mind seeing Belfort vs Alves either.
Sonnen is sort of like the MW version of Jon Fitch.
by Johnnynumber5 on Aug 12, 2010 3:35 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I dissagree
if anything his GnP is better.
"I ain't got time to breath."
Watch Tosh.O
Pain don't hurt...
by RolloTomasi on Aug 12, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
yes and no
He has better top control, but less damaging and Randy is one of the best and dirty boxing/wall and stalls
Jon Jones LHW Champion 2011
I don't think so, Anderson repeatedly let him land punch after punch when he could have easily maneuvered defensivley
He didn’t respect his horsepower. And just because his face is puffy doesn’t mean he was hit hard, you can swell up most faces with forearm and fist grinding. It happens all the time in the gym.
by SimplePsych on Aug 12, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I completely disagree.
Randy finishes people with his ground & pound.
Chael does not.
by Steve4192 on Aug 12, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
i’m down. unless Vitor could catch him quick, Chael would break him down
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Aug 12, 2010 10:10 AM EDT reply actions
In regards to the headline
Yes. Hell yes. Put that fight together in November, the winner makes a clear #1 contender. If Sonnen wins, those thinking an immediate rematch wasn’t necessarily called for because he lost decisively won’t have any complaints, and if Vitor wins he’s beaten a legitimate middleweight contender to earn his long talked about shot at Silva. I think it’s a no-brainer.
by Jamie Penick on Aug 12, 2010 10:10 AM EDT reply actions 8 recs
Make it happen, Dana!
█♣█
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who -- Jay-Z
by thetakeover on Aug 12, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not sure about Wands health or his next opponent, but a Wand vs. Vitor fight would be one I’d love to see.
Wand is out until the beginning of the year, as is Silva.
Belfort hasn’t fought in 11 months, lets just get chael in against Vitor for November – winner fights Anderson.
I say have Chael wait for Anderson
and have Belfort vs Okami for next challenger.
I don't want to see that fight.
If Okami wins, then what?
Semper Fi
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 12, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Belfort Leben?
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 12, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn't mind seeing that one.
I just think Okami should work his way through more contenders before a title shot.
Just my opinion though. Might be right or wrong.
Semper Fi
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 12, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
His loss to Sonnen is somewhat recent and he just lost to the champ so yeah it makes sense
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 12, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Exactly!
I just don’t see how that merits a shot at the title when the guy you lost to just fought for the championship.
Semper Fi
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 12, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
umm like Chael's loss to Demian Maia?
"Deserve's got nothing to do with it." -Will Munny, a known thief and murderer, a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition.
by PapaBumpants on Aug 12, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
To be fair, I wasn’t all in on the Chael fight when it was announced. Although I wasn’t opposed to it either.
He did beat Miller, Marquardt, and Okami after that loss.
Okami’s last fights against “contenders” have been losses. Wouldn’t you agree?
Semper Fi
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 12, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Okami beat who the UFC put in front of him
“Contender” is an ambiguous term.
Chael arguably wasn’t a contender until he beat Okami, so in that fight it was a lose-lose situation for Okami.
And if Okami’s loss to Franklin is held against him, so too should Sonnen’s loss to Filho, a fighter who couldn’t make it to the UFC.
"Deserve's got nothing to do with it." -Will Munny, a known thief and murderer, a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition.
by PapaBumpants on Aug 12, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Im not on board with Sonnen vs Belfort
Id like to see Sonnen vs Silva 2. Take advantage of the time off and cast both Sonnen and Andy as the next coaches of TUF. Film the episodes and by the time the show is over, ANdy will be healed.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
I brought this up a week ago.
This fight would be amazing. Vitor’s unstoppable power vs. Leben’s immovable chin. Gentleman, lets do science.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Sonnen vs Belfort does make sense but why not try this...
Leben vs Belfort —>title shot
Okami vs winner of palhares/marquardt —>maybe title shot?
Then by this time you can give sonnen a fight in november & maybe 1 more fight then if he wins both theres your rematch.
by destructivist on Aug 12, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
OOPS
Forgot about bisping, seems like they are still trying to force him into the title picture. So maybe the winner of that fight would fight leben or belfort instead?
by destructivist on Aug 12, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Then he gets a title shot?
That’s what a contenders fight is, isn’t it?
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
Nahhh...
Okami’s loss to Franklin and Sonnen.
I just don’t see that being fair in terms of rankings or fight history.
Semper Fi
by ChicagoMarine on Aug 12, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
But Vitor would be?
What’s his biggest win fighting at 185? Matt Lindland?
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
Then ranked #7 and odds on favorite Matt Lindland.
It was a good win for Vitor.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
It’s a decent win, but does he have a stronger argument for a title shot than Okami? I think a fight between the two of them is a perfectly legitimate number 1 contenders fight if you go with Chael getting and immediate rematch against Anderson.
"If the commission would sanction it and Dana would move, I’d fighter Anderson right now."
- Chael Sonnen at the post fight press conference following his loss to Anderson Silva.
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
Then we get to see if Silva’s takedown defense is actually bad, or if Sonnen is just a monster. Plus Silva can finally erase that ridiculous DQ loss.
...like young thieves in a glowing orchard, loosely jacketed against the cold and ten thousand worlds for the choosing.
- C. McCarthy
How is that loss ridiculous? He knocked him out with an up kick when okami’s knees were down. The ridiculous part was the ref having to hold Silva back after Okami was unconscious on the canvas. Was that fight at rumble on the rock?
by Johnnynumber5 on Aug 12, 2010 3:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You have 2 legit challengers right now. Sonnen and Belfort. Tarnishing one makes no sense. Book Belfort/Okami. If Belfort loses, Okami takes his place as a legit challenger. And Sonnen waits for his rematch.
http://www.instrength.com
Makes sense to me.
Plus there are plenty of keep busy fights available for Sonnen if the UFC wants to book him again.
Sonnen vs Wand If Wand wins, we get another interesting fight, even if it favors Andy.
Sonnen vs Leben I don’t see Leben winning, but Sonnen wins over a name.
Sonnen vs Akiyama / Bisping winner Sonnen should win, but if he is upset, either guy could be close to an internationally marketable title shot.
Just keep him away from Paul Harris should he upset Nate the great.
I agree.
I think they could make sonnen/leben very marketable. one liners about nail polish, dyed hair and tattoos, etc.,
by destructivist on Aug 12, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
But Okami couldn’t sell a fight if he had to, we all know who he is but most of his fights don’t even make the main card. If he beats Belfort then he doesn’t take his place they just both become weak contenders. Same with the fights for Sonnen, Wand is out injured, Leben is no where near a title shot and neither is Bisping. With these they risk both contenders without a legitimate replacement coming into play with Sonnen vs Belfort you not only raise the value of one of those two you also use that fight to directly build Anderson Silva’s next title defense into a even bigger fight.
In a perfect world Belfort knocks out Chonnen then Frankiling drops to 185 and sends Chonnen to Strikefoece to fight TBA for the title.
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
Sonnen? or Chonan?
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 12, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Chael Sonnen Chonnen son
"Holy Crap Lashley is one Bi black dude. He just looks so immensely thick in that picture."
-Pain
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 12, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Is Sail Shownan related to Handy?
by Johnnynumber5 on Aug 12, 2010 3:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
am i the only one whos not sick of his shit talk?
the only thing i hate is gonna be the copycats who try and do what he did
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
i’m not sick of his ability to manipulate the audience at large, or most of the overall content of his shit, but i am surely sick of his voice
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Aug 12, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
the voice i think tops it off
but i also dont find stephan bonnar or ron jawarski annoying so i guess annoying voices just dont irritate me
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
Anderson’s voice irritates me! Especially as it’s always followed by freakin’ Ed Soares.
I was pretty sick of Chael’s trash talking, I was going to watch the fight anyway and the talking didn’t really do much for me in terms of hyping it up. Obviously it worked on a grander scale though.. and I have to admit when I saw him deliver some of those lines at the pre- and post-fight press conferences, some of it was actually kind of funny.
by Horselover Fat on Aug 12, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Book two fights
Belfort vs Okami
Sonnen vs Wand or Leben or Bisping / Akiyama winner
This puts both Sonnen and Belfort in winnable fights and keeps them busy without sacrificing a potential opponent. The problem at MW is and has been the lack of contenders, why would they wanna get rid of one?
That would be an even better TUF season.
by Polyhedron on Aug 12, 2010 11:55 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Agreed
Okami arguably has a better case for getting the shot than Belfort, and Sonnen should beat the winner of Bisping/Akiyama. Whatever the result in those fights though, there’s an interesting fight for the title afterwards.
by CaptainArmbar on Aug 12, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Assuming all goes according to plan…
Sonnen vs. Leben
Belfort vs. Okami
Sonnen vs. Silva II
Belfort vs. Marquardt
Wnners fight for the title. Done and done.
Ehh I'm not too fond of that matchup...
I’d rather see Sonnen vs either Leben or the winner of Bisping vs Akiyama.
Put Belfort against Okami.
by Polyhedron on Aug 12, 2010 11:50 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
I just don't think Belfort vs Sonnen would be a good fight.
Mainly for the reasons outlined in the article.
by Polyhedron on Aug 12, 2010 11:53 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
NO are you folks crazy??
It is not a good match-up for Vitor, wrestling is his total weakness, so better let’s see him knock out Silva (which it is pretty sure he will), and then throw him against Chael and see what happens, but no, I don’t want Sonnen eliminating another contender.
u really think belfort is gonna ko silva???
a week ago silva was the most dominant fighter ever now one less than steller performance and vitors gonna ko him?
im not sold on that at all andersons standup is still absurd vitor doesnt make it to the 3rd round in that fight
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
If Chael rocked him a few times, and also knocked him once
Belfort sure kills him on the feet, take a note on that, and I never bought all that Anderson Silva’s hype.
Watch the fight again then, and see how even in the striker game Anderson is backing up for the whole fight
Just in the beggining of the 4th round he had a rush on Chael, but after he realized he wasn’t able to capitalize, was down again
Wait, you’re basing your argument on the round where Silva dropped Sonnen and completely dominated him for the 30 seconds they were standing?
And just because a striker is moving away, it does NOT mean he’s losing the standup game. Especially when that striker is anticipating a takedown.
...like young thieves in a glowing orchard, loosely jacketed against the cold and ten thousand worlds for the choosing.
- C. McCarthy
(see for example Chuck Liddell's entire career)
"Deserve's got nothing to do with it." -Will Munny, a known thief and murderer, a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition.
by PapaBumpants on Aug 12, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If Vitor fought the same Anderson that showed up last saturday I think Vitor would be able to win. Chances are whether it was injury or dedication to the fight I have a feeling Anderson wont come into a fight like that again
by Papercut Elbow on Aug 12, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
What happens to Sonnen if he fights Leben/Bisping?
Does he sit out for like a year while Belfort or Okami fights Silva? Or do they risk putting him against Maia again, to get rid of his only non-Anderson loss in recent memory?
...like young thieves in a glowing orchard, loosely jacketed against the cold and ten thousand worlds for the choosing.
- C. McCarthy
If you're a fan of eliminating contenders
Chael would murder Vitor. Or, really, any middleweight right now outside of Anderson or maybe Gerald Harris.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
i think maia and jacare dominate chael
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
by milk72 on Aug 12, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Completely disagree. Don’t think Maia could do what he did again, but yes, he’d have a chance to sub him. As would Jacare, but Sonnen’s grinding style would gas him in his current blown up state.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Aug 12, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I think Chael would keep it standing against Maia. He dominated Okami on the feet, and did pretty well against Silva. Better than anymore in recent memory, including Ace
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 12, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
That would probably be the smart thing to do, as he’s obviously still vulnerable to triangles! I think Sonnen would win the stand-up against Maia, that’s a fight he should avoid taking the ground if it happens again.
Jacare has the crazy submission game along with decent wrestling and pretty good striking these days, I think he could beat Sonnen too.
by Horselover Fat on Aug 12, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Jacare vs Sonnen would be a really interesting fight. I’d love to see it.
by Johnnynumber5 on Aug 12, 2010 3:55 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah Sonnen needs to learn how to call them playboys
and ask where their BJJ is.
by Polyhedron on Aug 12, 2010 11:57 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Jacare, maybe. I don’t know how good his MMA wrestling/jiujitsu is, but maybe.
Maia – probably not. If they fought 10 more times, I think Sonnen would win all 10 of them. Sonnen ran like an idiot into that crazy takedown Maia did. As long as he remembers to disengage every time Maia gets his hands on him, Sonnen should outstrike him by a wide margin.
...like young thieves in a glowing orchard, loosely jacketed against the cold and ten thousand worlds for the choosing.
- C. McCarthy
He’s adapted some decent wrestling, but people tend to give him too much credit for it. Against Chael, he’d get wrestled to death.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Aug 12, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Jacare that is.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Aug 12, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
if chael takes donw jacare i dont like his chances of avoiding subs for even 3 rds
he’d have to try and win an ultimate kickboxing fight against him
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
That's fine
We don’t have to agree, I just think people are too early on the Jacare hype wagon. You’re effectively ranking him second in the world.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Aug 12, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
He took Lindland down, didn’t he? All he needs to do is get Sonnen down once, and it’s done. Besides, Sonnen still has to deal with Jacare’s guard. I know he’s not known for it, but you can’t get to the highest level of BJJ without a good guard.
...like young thieves in a glowing orchard, loosely jacketed against the cold and ten thousand worlds for the choosing.
- C. McCarthy
Yes, Lindland is still the same fighter he was 5-10 years ago.
Jacare, who I absolutely love, could not take down Sonnen.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Aug 12, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Watch Jacare's fight with Villasenor.
A fucking BJJ ace shooting powerful double legs. Shit is scary.
by Polyhedron on Aug 12, 2010 12:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
It is pretty rad
But I wouldn’t expect any of that against Chael.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Aug 12, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Ugh, this is ignorant.
Demian had a clinch against then fence and Chael was keeping distance with his hips, which left him open to knees. He gets blasted with a knee to the body and closes distance to prevent taking further damage. As soon as he steps in, Demian uses that momentum for a sick throw (he’s also a judo black belt, for those who forget) and then does work. The only error Chael made was turning in to the triangle, but he was already down and Demian was gonna keep him in danger.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Aug 12, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
He just has to treat them like Gilbert did Aoki.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 12, 2010 12:57 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
or
Jake Shields or Paul Harris or Thales Leites or a sane Paulo Filho
If I remember correctly, the only top level BJJ black belt that hasn’t subbed Sonnen is Dan Miller.
by truck on Aug 12, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i think chael beats all them
none of those guys could take him down and i think chaels striking is better
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
Shields and Palhares both took Hendo down. I know his takedown defense is worse than Sonnen’s, but it’s something to consider.
...like young thieves in a glowing orchard, loosely jacketed against the cold and ten thousand worlds for the choosing.
- C. McCarthy
Henderson hasn’t given a shit about wrestling in years.
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Aug 12, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
he fell in love with his right hand
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
but in his defense i think we all did after he almost killed bisping
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
To be fair
a lot of us fell in love with his right hand
"Deserve's got nothing to do with it." -Will Munny, a known thief and murderer, a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition.
by PapaBumpants on Aug 12, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
i already said that one
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
sh!t
didn’t read your whole next comment
"Deserve's got nothing to do with it." -Will Munny, a known thief and murderer, a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition.
by PapaBumpants on Aug 12, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Which of these guys takes Sonnen down on paper?
Anderson Silva, Jeremy Horn x 2, Demian Maia, Paulo Filho, Renato Sobral, Forrest Griffin and Trevor Prangley
None, but he has managed to be submitted by all of them.
by truck on Aug 12, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
only Maia actually took him down. the rest of the subs were the result of Sonnen takedowns and his love of ball-smell before blacking out.
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Aug 12, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
of course its not
but i dont think in a fight agaisnt guys like jake shields, palharas, thales leites or a sane paulo filho (which will never happen the guys totally crazy) chael would bother to take them down and i dont think any of those guys have the capabilities to take chael down
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
That is the only fight that he knows
Even in the second Filho fight he couldn’t resist hitting the ground
He also hit the mat repeatedly against Dan Miller
there could be some truth in that
but all those guys u mentioned have lacking striking, i really think chael can lay off the double legs for a little and win an ultimate kickboxing fight agaisnt those guys
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
Shields is a good call that I missed
But folks need to lay off Chael a little bit. He went almost five full with a Nog black belt before soft tapping in an arm bar/triangle. I think he’s improving his sub defense, and he’s FAR more active than he was when he got subbed all those many times before.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Aug 12, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Shields is a good call that I missed
But folks need to lay off Chael a little bit. He went almost five full with a Nog black belt before soft tapping in an arm bar/triangle. I think he’s improving his sub defense, and he’s FAR more active than he was when he got subbed all those many times before.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Aug 12, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
UFC want sot go to Brazil.
There is no bigger UFC star in Brazil than Vitor Belfort. Their biggest Brazilian star fighting for a title is a no brainer. Vitor should be getting softballs until he gets Anderson.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
How do these guys compare brand-wise in Brazil?
Big Nog, Anderson Silva, Wanderlei, Lyoto and Shogun… surely one of these is a bigger star in Brazil than Vitor? (I don’t know the answer… I’m asking the question)
I won't rank that group amongst themselves
but I do know who is more famous than all of them. Joana Prado.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Vitor's wife eh?
That probably makes Vitor a bigger star/stud in Braz than all those other guys put together :)
Chael beats Vitor
and loses the rematch to Silva.
Chael has a cult following now because of his talk and his performance so I’m pretty sure that any fight he’s in, as long as he talks, will do well financially.
I apologize for my never-ending assault on the English Language. I feel like Qui the promoter from Jade Empire...
As mentioned before (because it makes sense title ladder wise)
Chael gets the winner of Okami vs Belfort.
Belfort needs an actual win at 185, Okami needs to get more wins to justify a title shot.
People do not like to think. If one thinks, one must reach conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant.
- Helen Keller
Sonnen - A.Silva on TUF
is actually a great idea. Filming now while Silva is injured is fine, since it means he should be recovered and ready to go when it airs. It’s nice because it actually doesn’t put a title on hold indefinitely, builds interest in Silva and the rematch, and keeps viewers’ eyes on Sonnen and Silva.
If not that, give Sonnen a decent fight that you expect him to win (eg. Leben).
Belfort really is not known among US fans, even if the hardcores remember him fondly. In the meantime, give him another fight or two. Wand-Belfort would be good since either one could step right into a title shot, and any combination of Anderson-Chael winner vs Wand-Vitor winner would be a huge fight. You can even have the losers fight for the next title shot.
We went through a long period where the MW division couldn’t come up with real challenges for Anderson, so I have no idea why everyone is in a rush to wreck one of the few credible challenges by putting Sonnen-Belfort together.
by mma_critic on Aug 12, 2010 12:26 PM EDT reply actions
Chael Sonnen has really worked some magic here. When’s the last time anyone gave a shit about title fights at 185, other than how quickly Anderson could get through them and move to 205?
...like young thieves in a glowing orchard, loosely jacketed against the cold and ten thousand worlds for the choosing.
- C. McCarthy
That's not as great of an idea as it sounds.
Sonnen vs. Silva II doesn’t need TUF to hype it, it’s pre built. There won’t be a significant value add from it.
However, UFC wants to do international expansion, international TUF, and made cryptic statements about Brazil recently. Vitor is the biggest star in Brazil, thanks largely to his wife’s fame. That can’t be replicated by the UFC’s marketing machine, it’s unique. They are going to want to leverage that and their greatest marketing tool besides Dana himself; the belt.
If Anderson does TUF, it will be not be opposite of Chael Sonnen. He will star against Vitor, and it will headline the first Zuffa era card in Brazil. I have no insider info to guarantee this, but I’d be willing to bank on it.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I’m assuming by previous comments you’ve made, you have spent extensive time in Brazil.
If so, aside from MMA-related guys, my only relationships with Brazilians have been in the business and federal law-enforcement arenas, but if they are representative of most people there, MMA is actually not very popular at all, perhaps from being too closely related to vale tudo?
Thoughts?
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 12, 2010 1:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Honestly, I have not spent extensive time there.
This is just what I know from working closely with MMA and being good at my job, if I do say so myself.
You are correct though, MMA is not huge in Brazil and largely due to the reasons you stated. There’s a reason that Jungle Fight struggles to gain significant traction despite putting on awesome fights, and Bitteti Combat has has to work incredibly hard to gain viewership within the country even with solid name fighters. But the UFC wants to be an international brand and they seem to feel that the Brazilian market can be expanded to a profit center, which I agree can be done over time. But they need to hit hard with a great night of fights (and possibly an expo) to get the ball rolling.
Vitor has the star power necessary, and it would be poor decision making to headline with a non-title fight or to not headline with him. Solution: Vitor title shot. You need a supporting fight with a high level Brazilian in a good but winnable fight. Thiago Silva vs. Rich Franklin would be solid. Alves vs. Swick beneath that would be great as well. The next two fights on the main card can be anything, and fill the prelims with up and coming Brazilian talent like Chiquerim or Charles Oliviera, while avoiding Brazil vs. Brazil fights. Have Shogun, Lyoto, Junior Dos Santos, Jose Aldo, and Noguieras signing autographs at the pre-fight press conference, and get Demian (he’s a fantastic public speaker with a journalism degree) back on Fastau to talk about how safe and sporting MMA is. Get a ton of viral marketing through Orkut before and after the fight. Then announce something major for a Brazilian fighter. Sign Ricardo Arona, induct Big Nog to the UFC Hall of Fame, something like that. After that, keep the advertising budget up so you don’t fade out of the public consciousness and press hard on cards similar to 119 featuring prominent and popular Brazilian fighters.
That’s how I’d do it at least. I’d love to see the UFC one up my plan and bring MMA to Brazil for good. It’s a huge market, and if the execute properly, they can really do good for themselves, the sport, and for local economies in Brazil.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
"I know from working closely with MMA and being good at my job"
You forgot modest.
The problem is your Brazil plan would interfere with my recommended plan on how to expand into Korea/Japan – the second most profitable mma territory in the world.
I'm more humble than any motherfucker here!
What’s your Korea/Japan plan? I think Brazil makes more sense since it’s an untapped market with an expanding economy and they don’t have to deal with scraps of PRIDE or competition from DREAM and K-1. It’s minuscule competition, but German Shepards are still happier when there isn’t a yipping Maltipoo biting at their ankles.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
It's more of a gambit than an actual plan
Taking from the navy the idea that it would have been smarter to go straight from Hawaii over the top to Korea and into Japan instead of island leapfrogging, here it is:
1) Book Okami and Gomi to very winnable but respectable fights. Maybe book Gomi against Joe Stevens and give Okami Leben or a healthy Belcher.
2) If they both win you’re ready for your first big show in Hawaii. If BJ gets the title back he’s the main event against Florian or Maynard with an undercard card with Gomi and Okami. If he doesn’t he’s pitted against Gomi as a co-main with a MW title match with Okami as the challenger.
This is the perfect card to heavily promote in Japan. You’ve got two local boys (Okami and Gomi) proving the Japanese can compete with the big boys, it’s in Hawaii, a part of the US the Japanese are very familiar with, and another Asian fighter, BJ Penn, on the card. It’s a great way to whet their appetite.
3) Next step, book a show in South Korea a few months later. The main event: yoshihiro akiyama vs wanderlei Silva. Co-main: a Big Nog-Cro Cop rematch. then book Dong Hyun Kim, Dong Yi Yang, resign Dennis Kang, and book the Korean Zombie to a special WEC co-pro preliminary card.
Korea is a much easier market for the UFC to enter than Japan. With that card they’ll be able to book a 10-12,000 arena, and get a lot of attention from the nearby Japanese fans.
4) Now you’ve done two cards which has hopefully garnered a lot of Japanese attention. Now here is where the Gambit pays off: If either Gomi or Okami are now the champs or number one contenders you can book a show in Japan. Sure you’ll have to put the title on ice for 6 months while you set up a stadium but you -absolute best case scenario – you an go into Japan with
- Okami vs Akiyama for the MW title and Gomi vs Bj Penn for the MW title. Worst case you book one of them to a title match, one to top contenders match and an Akiyama-Leben rematch (or steal Misaki away from FEG!). Load up with a few other old Pride or Korean fighters and you have an amazing show to kick which the Japanese are going to go nuts over.
Is the UFC going to kill off the Japanese promotions? No way in hell. The Japanese still have a big enough appetite that Zuffa won’t be able to meet the demand. But the UFC can finally label themselves as the mma promotion to the Japanese, which would be what? $20 or 30 million extra in their coffers every year? Maybe more. And even better for the UFC (and terrible for the fighters) they’ve taken that much more from Dream’s revenue so they have less competition for fighters, keeping wages even lower.
I like the plan, but it relies too much on Strikeforceish "This guy wins to set up this" matchmaking.
The glory of expanding into Brazil is that they have so many options for guys to promote it. Okami and Gomi are nice, but Gomi is past his prime at Okami is just one man. Akiyama is too much of a heel in Japan to be used effectively in expanding the market. Even if you add in Mizugaki, there’s a dearth of talent opportunities. I’ll admit that I am also ignorant about how well spoken each of those men are, so I can’t vouch for that.
What I do know is that Demian has killer mic skills in Portuguese. Shogun has an bright boyish charm to sell. Wanderlei is fantastic with one-on-one fan interaction. Lyoto appeals to the huge population of those with Japanese heritage in Brazil. Aldo is a great sportsman and has the Horatio Algers rags to riches (by WEC standards) story will sell as it always does. With each of them doing media in their home towns, that covers Sao Paulo, Belem, Curitiba, and Rio. And none of those guys are even fighting on the card I propose.
Vitor Belfort vs. Champion, doesn’t matter who it is at the time
Thiago Silva vs. Rich Franklin
Thiago Alves vs. Mike Swick
Paulo Thiago vs. Carlos Condit
Rafael Dos Anjos vs. Sam Stout
That is a fucking awesome PPV for the core and will probably sell around 500k. The ticket sales should do gangbusters by Brazil standards. A comparable card in Japan won’t even come close to the massive audiences that PRIDE drew, and the PPV will have to be tape delayed. This is lower risk and way easier to activate while establishing a new UFC fanbase and, to paraphrase our former president, makes the Brazilian MMA pie higher.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
The one great thing about your Brazil card is you still can broadcast in the US without delay so you don’t have to take a hit.
The other thing is there are so many big names from Brazil that you could easily try both plans,
The third thing is you are obviously hanging on those Brazilians nuts.
Hehehe, obviously.
Worst case scenario in my plan though, they spend too much on advertising and only have a small profit after doing mediocre PPV numbers. That’s unlikely though since they have all the Brazilian talent I mentioned ready to go out and do TV and radio for free.
Your Japan/Korea plan involves way more financial risk and works on the assumption that MMA can even come back in Japan now that the fad has passed. Brazil is establishing a new market, not picking through the rubble of a collapsed one. I think that beginning the slow progression into South America and locking down a country as talent rich as Brazil should be a priority.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Didn’t the UFC sell 117 as US vs Brazil there?

The pro’s are that it’s easy for them to find Brazillian stars to headline shows there, the con is that there just isn’t all that much money in the Brazillian market for them to tap. Still it wouldn’t be hard to establish a presence there being as so many fighters come from there already and they could always grow with the market. They would also have no real problems selling those PPVs in the US as plenty of Brazillian stars are US stars too.
Lots and lots of money in Japan/Far East but it’s a hard nut to crack, not so much money in Brazil/South America but they wouldn’t have to put out much effort to tap it. I guess they will decide to keep bashing their head into a wall in Germany instead though.
But MMA is not a fad in Japan
It’s just not as popular as it was. Dream still sells out 15-20,000 arenas 6 times a year. WVR draws 8 or 9,000 six times a year. When on primetime TV they still do a 10% + share, In country less than half our size 12 mil tuned in for their last big show. That would be 25 mil in the US! Gangbuster ratings.
The problem is the fans have cooled for mma because Pride is no longer around, the fans know that the Japanese promotions are second best – at best – and the business model of tv ratings doesn’t allow them to make enough to compete for the top talent.
Japanese fighters fighting for the UFC belt is going to get ratings and sell. Nationalist Pride and hope that a local boy can compete with the Americans has always been a bigger selling point to the Japanese.
Still, your top 3 or 4 Brazilian stars could be unavailable and you’d still be able to easily put on a great show. That’s how deep the talent is there for the UFC.
I’m not seeing how doing TUF to air spring next year would not be putting Silva on the shelf for unnecessarily long.. the finale for season 11 aired June 19th this year, so if we assume the same time frame for that season, well that’s just not any good IMO. Season 12 hasn’t even began airing yet!
by Horselover Fat on Aug 12, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not just you
But I’m tired of seeing the ideas of champions doing TUF for two reasons:
1.) TUF has run its course like American Idol.
2.) It’s blocks out several months for them coaching future gatekeepers when they could be fighting.
Nick Garcia is the Brian Russell of MLS but 10 times worse.
I agree entirely.
I also think the show has lost a fair bit of steam as a vehicle for promoting the coaches fights. If you did a cross-section of buys for GSP (the 2nd most popular champ) and the year end shows (which he will be on) how many more eyeballs could this next season possibly draw?
by destructivist on Aug 12, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
one thing missing here
is that sonnen is a star now. if it happened as soon as november, i think he could effectively headline or co-headline a pretty good pay-per-view. and if it’s with a semi-favorable matchup like belfort, and he mauls him, the heat could be enormous for the silva rematch.
by Trust Doesn't Rust on Aug 12, 2010 12:34 PM EDT reply actions
Sonnen/Silva 2 needs a Primetime.
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My biggest fear is that
Belfort beats Sonnen and has another long injury layoff, giving Andy another reason to put the belt on the shelf for 9 months while claiming there’s no legitimate challenger. We saw the legitimate challenger to Andy’s aura of invincibility, its Sonnen, run that back please.
by WarToney on Aug 12, 2010 12:39 PM EDT reply actions
It wouldn't look so bad
For the UFC to give Silva Sonnen even if he loses to Belfort. Compared to the corruption in boxing or the utter lack of challengers in other MMA leagues, people would get over it — and probably even laud the UFC for giving Sonnen the chance he earned in the first fight.
The fact that Soennen Belfort will eliminate a contender is an important fact, only because of the weight class. 185 is in a strange place because of Anderson’s run through the division, so I think if they can find a way to keep both active and stagger the fights so one can fight anderson in january/february and the other one will be ready to fight the winner, that would be great, but this seems like a logistical nightmare.
Thre are no safe fights in the UFC for these guys, trying to keep them active and safe is impossible and risk losing both of them as credible challengers. Them fighting each other builds the next title fight even more and guarantees that one of them will be around in February to fight Silva. They can risk them both or just risk one of them and build one of them up or sit both of them on the sidelines.
Overlooked aspect of the Silva/Sonnen figh
Yes, Sonnen held Silva down, but Silva landed some GOOD shots on the feet, and of course opened him up from the bottom. I swear Silva actually had Sonnen rocked a couple of times, but was being too reckless and was too exhausted to stuff Sonnen’s take downs. My point is that if Vitor can survive on the ground (likely), he stands a good chance of really catching Sonnen on the feet. I feel that in a rematch, Silva would likely be able to do this as well — if he fought just a bit less recklessly.
I would like to see Sonnen Silva 2. It would be nice to see how Anderson deals with Chael without the broken rib, and if Chael can learn how to defend a damn triangle choke.
Vitor can fight Okami sometime this fall.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
Truculence, Belligerence, & Pugnacity
I think people are putting too much of the credit for selling UFC 117 on Chael and ignoring how great UFC 116 was for the casual fans. It had a great mix of stand, bang, blood, comebacks, and technical skill to make new fans from people that had only heard of the sport.
It’s anecdotal evidence but I had many friends that brought up UFC 116 in conversation and that caused my head to snap around. When I invited them to see UFC 117 they jumped on the chance. I had to inform them of the level of shit talking Sonnen had achieved.
How about...
Vitor vs Okami for reasons outlined above (neither has a stronger claim than Chael at 185 for a title bout; Vitor needs some 185 matches; Okami needs to beat more contenders)
Put up an interim title belt. Chael fights the winner of Vitor/Okami for that belt. Chael will sell that fight like crazy. Partly coz he knows he’s on a roll and knows how to do it. Partly coz an interim title is a nice thing on the CV.
Silva and the interim title holder fight the unification bout when Silva is fit. I reckon he will be facing Chael which will be as huge then as if there wasn’t an interim title, or actually, probably BIGGER due to happenings in the meantime (i.e. Chael would have beaten someone for an interim belt).
If Chael is NOT the interim champ, it’ll probably be Belfort. Which will be a HUGE boost to Belfort, and Belfort as interim vs Silva as returning champ would be massive.
And all these fights would be very entertaining.
While on a "purist" level I don't like the use of interim belts...
I like the marketing opportunities and interest value for fans, both casual and hardcore.
Anderson Silva is only going to be out 6 months, he’s really just missing one fight. That’s not really justification for an interim title.
Yea... probably too short... but what do the guidelines (if any?)
… say about the length of time needed before an interim belt is used? I couldn’t find anything definitive
I want Chael to get a rematch and I figure Vitor would lose to Anderson anyway
So I have no problems with Chael fighting Vitor. Whether it’s an immediate rematch or having to go through Vitor, Chael will fight Anderson either way, cause Vitor will lose to Chael.
Sonnen vs Vitor makes sense. Gets Sonnen a big win and sends him onwards and upwards to a big money rematch with Silva. Vitor is just going to cause problems with all his injury woes. Better to just stick him in an interesting title eliminator with Sonnen and be done with him.
Belfort might be the only elite level fighter than Chael Sonnen can get a finish against. Then again, I wouldn’t be shocked if Belfort subbed him from the bottom – let’s not forget that he almost caught Randy Couture in an arm bar in that third fight. The only thing that saved Randy was that they were so covered in blood by that point, Randy was able to slide right out.
Whoever wins that fight would have a pretty good head of steam behind them going into a match with Anderson in the first quarter of 2011. I think it’s the fight to make, at this point.
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No, what the UFC needs to do is book Vitor vs. Okami because Belfort needs a legit win at MW to be a serious contender and Yushin gets him there.
Then you have Sonnen vs. Silva on TUF, that way both guys have something to do until Anderson gets healthy plus Chael will make TUF must see tv again.
Then the winner of Vitor/Okami faces the winner of Silva/Sonnen 2 and you have back to back big title matches at MW and the losers can probably face off too.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
by Nightwhistler on Aug 12, 2010 3:14 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Niether fighter should wait until next March to fight
Give them a Carwin/Mir style interim title fight. If you build it, they will come!
I feel bad for Okami again.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Aug 12, 2010 4:40 PM EDT reply actions

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