Memo to James Toney: Junior Dos Santos and Todd Duffee Have Shown That Boxing Alone Isn't Enough in the UFC
by Kid Nate on Aug 11, 2010 10:35 AM EDT
in MMA Technique
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Junior Dos Santos accomplished several things at UFC 117:
- he showed that he can utterly dominate a top 20 heavyweight with his boxing and take down defense;
- he showed the grit and focus required to get a win over a guy who survived his early blitz; and
- he showed that boxing alone isn't always enough to get the KO or TKO finish in high level MMA.
FightMetric analyzed the fight and tallied up 130 "significant" strikes landed for Dos Santos vs 40 for Roy Nelson. 102 of Dos Santos strikes were to the head and ALL of them were punches. While it was an utterly dominant performance for Dos Santos, I came away thinking that the guy really needs to have a backup plan to succeed at the very highest levels of the sport.
We saw a similar tale, but with a very different ending, when Todd Duffee faced Mike Russow at UFC 114. CompuStrike counted 58 strikes landed for Duffee, all but 2 of them punches. All 56 of those punches were "power" punches. Sadly for Duffee, one of the only 11 strikes that Russow landed in the fight dropped him in the third round.
Obviously effective striking is a key part of any MMA fighter's arsenal and boxing is one of the most proven effective striking arts, but I contend that these two fights show the limitations of boxing in high level MMA.
Obviously Dos Santos and Duffee are not the world's leading exponents of boxing technique, but the two punch as hard as anyone in MMA and Dos Santos in particular has some real technical acumen with his punching. He's got good hand speed, excellent counter punching and fundamentally sound footwork. He also showed a strong chin on Saturday against Nelson.
Duffee has more flaws in his game, but nonetheless, his punches are very dangerous threats to finish fights. As I wrote after his loss to Russow:
He really needs to expand his offensive palette. He threw the jab/uppercut combination over and over and over again. Other than the handful of head kicks that he threw, Duffee acted like he was in a boxing match. And even in boxing they throw to the body. Russow's saggy gut was virtually begging to be punched and Duffee ignored it, drawn in by visions of a quick KO.
Adding kicks and knees to their stand up arsenal would dramatically increase Dos Santos' and Duffee's chances of finishing opponents at the highest levels. Being willing to take a fight to the ground and work for a submission or a ground and pound finish would also be immensely useful.
Just like jiu jitsu, boxing is a supremely effective discipline in MMA, but it's not so effective that it can be the only weapon in a fighter's arsenal, not at the very top levels of MMA anyway. Boxing has the big advantage over jiu jitsu of allowing a fighter to clearly dominate the action and rack up decision wins even without a clean finish, but as Todd Duffee learned, in MMA anything can happen and if you don't finish your man, you just might lose suddenly at the end of a fight you had "locked up".
James Toney thinks he will stroll into UFC 118 and knock out Randy Couture with his superior boxing skills. He has a chance, but not as good a chance as he thinks. Reportedly Toney is working to add defensive wrestling and jiu jitsu to his arsenal, but that is predicated on the assumption that his boxing alone is enough offense to win the fight.
And yes, Toney, as a pure boxer is literally light years ahead of even Dos Santos in terms of boxing technique. Unfortunately for Toney, the adjustments he needs to make to his boxing stance and the loss of numerous techniques like the shoulder roll and the bob-and-weave to avoid giving up easy take downs and eating knees to the face will distort his pristine boxing technique significantly.
This ain't boxing James, it's MMA. You might want to talk to Mike Tyson about that. He's got some understanding he'd like to share with you since he's a fan of MMA and you're not.
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Counterargument
It was Duffee’s bad boxing technique that opened him up for the fluke knockout.
█♣█
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who -- Jay-Z
of course
but Russow shouldn’t have been in position to win that fight in the third round. anytime you can utterly dominate someone, it’s incumbent to finish ASAP and the Duffee/Russow fight shows why. Even with better boxing it’s clear that Russow is not dropping from punches.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
can't the same argument be made for wrestlers
who can’t finish fights though? such as Chael Sonnen?
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
I think that argument has been made
When some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head up against the barroom wall, and he looks you crooked in the eye and he asks you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail." - Jack Burton
by donkeypunch on Aug 11, 2010 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
It sure can.
In this day and age. all fighters must diversify their skill sets if they want to get / stay on top.
yeah
I just don’t see the point of singling out one style, when that style is working for a fighter such as JDS. Duffey lost, JDS may end up losing because of his style, but I think he’s doing fine with it, he finishes more people than not (one decision in his whole career isn’t bad). I just don’t see the point in bringing examples such as JDS and Todd into the argument, they may rely on their boxing but they also have extensive knowledge in the ground game as well. Kid Nate could have created an argument for how Toney will do bad just by explaining that his only style is boxing, and nothing else.
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
I agree, and I think the premise of this article is contrived
Because JDS DID use primarily boxing and takedown defense on this fight and it was about as dominating a decision in a HW fight as I have seen in recent times. The only thing that Nelson showed was a hard head. I am not sure I understand the current trend of obsessing over the finishing of fights. Sometimes a decision means that the bout is competitive doesn’t it?.
I think under all the circumstances that JDS showed far better skills and mental toughness than just about any up and coming heavyweight could show at this point. Just a few weeks ago there were 100’s of posts here lamenting Nelson as a dangerous threat to any HW.
If I were his coach I would add more leg kicks and body punches to his training, if this would have been employed there is no doubt nelson would not have made it out of the 3rd round.
by SimplePsych on Aug 11, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I came away thinking that the guy really needs to have a backup plan to succeed at the very highest levels of the sport.
I came away thinking that the guy really needs to have a backup plan to succeed at the very highest levels of the sport.
Why does Dos Santo need a back up plan? It looked like he dominated the fight from start to finish. Not every fight will be end with a KO or TKO. I think its fine to be a brawl and sprawler.
by Darren Watkins on Aug 11, 2010 10:19 AM EDT reply actions
I mostly agree but...
What happens if he faces someone who is besting him on the feet or able to take him down. He will need more.
yeah but in 5 rounds
especially against someone with a submission game like Brock Lesnar, you can dominate 4 and 3/4 of the rounds and still lose.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Agreed
I almost always feel more comfortable picking the guy who has more possible ways to finish the fight.
question
did anyone hear Roy’s post fight conference? i’m wondering if Dos Sant’os’ punches started to lose some steam as the fight went on. Obviously he utterly dominated the fight but I’m curious if he started to lose some of his power (ala Carwin). Did Roy comment on that at all?
I can’t imagine him not losing power over 3 rounds. Shit, I was tired after watching him for 1.
"The common denominator of the Universe is not harmony, but chaos, hostility, and murder."
"Opinionated weather forecasters telling me it's going to be a miserable day. Miserable to who? I quite like a bit of drizzle, so stick to the facts!"
"Shoot him again... his soul is still dancing!"
by Ephemeral Artery on Aug 11, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
He is a Brown belt under the nogueira brothers
Also nelson I think has a black belt in bjj. I think both guys have a plan B.
by Darren Watkins on Aug 11, 2010 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
They said purple belt on saturday
by SilverNBlackZach! on Aug 11, 2010 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
especially against someone with a submission game like Brock Lesnar
Never thought I’d see this. Times, they are a changin
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Aug 11, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s crazy, right?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 11, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
wow
I mean, JDS has been doing BJJ longer than he’s been trainning boxing, what makes you think Brock’s submission game is better than his? Just because he submitted one guy out of 6 people gets him a better ground game than JDS?
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
naw
but if he were to knock out his next foe that wouldn’t mean he has a better KO ratio than, say, Alves :p
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
lol, a submission game like Brock Lesnar? Are you joking or something? He chokes out a lifeless corpse and now he’s a sub specialist?
by Toolshed1 on Aug 11, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Couple Points
1. Great fleshing out of the obvious point that fighters like Duffee and Dos Santos need to diversify their arsenal of strikes. Whey your boxing is that effective, it opens up opportunities for knees and kicks that can cripple your opponent, take away his will to fight, drop his hands and lose his base for any come back offensive opportunity.
2. Defense is still really important. Both Dos Santos and Duffee had defensive holes, boxing to decision would be fine, but they can’t have holes.
3. Both guys headhunted- A good way to work the body is with Kicks, but even punches to the body could work.
yes
body punching is a much underutilized art in MMA. That’s why otherwise non-notable fighters like Forrest Petz and Kyle Baker have made fans of me.
If you haven’t seen Rick Story destroy Dustin Hazelett yet, you’ll see some excellent body shots thrown by Story.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
This
Defense is still really important. Both Dos Santos and Duffee had defensive holes, boxing to decision would be fine, but they can’t have holes.
James “Shell Game” Toney is an excellent defensive boxer, so this shouldn’t be his problem.
That said, he’ll get GnP’ed by Randy in under two minutes.
█♣█
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who -- Jay-Z
by thetakeover on Aug 11, 2010 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
a lot of his defensive techniques in boxing won't work in mma
shoulder rolls, bobbing and weaving etc
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Well, this has become a catch phrase sentence on BE and is an interesting theory
But there has not, as of yet been anyone with the skill level of Toney that has truly attempted them in MMA.
by SimplePsych on Aug 11, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
This has very little to do with Toney
It seems like a headline grab to me. There is no analysis of why this causes problems for Toney, nor do I think anyone is under any illusions that Toney will make a long and consistent run in MMA that would require a skill set. If Toney needs to work on anything it isn’t offensive kicks on the feet. Its Jits, Wrestling, take down defense.
well boxing is presumably
Toney’s only offensive weapon. He’ll be busy adding defense to his arsenal but his assumption is that his primary art is so deadly he won’t need other offense.
And August is James Toney month so get used to it.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
added a couple more graphs
thanks for the feedback. sometimes i think about a point so much i don’t bother to make it.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Better example
would be pure strikers who got clowned by wrestlers, since that’s what’s going to happen to Toney.
█♣█
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who -- Jay-Z
by thetakeover on Aug 11, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Welcome
And thanks for adding that in. I see the point that Toney’s offense might not be enough. I guess one counter point would be that Randy’s Jaw is a little suspect at age 46 so he probably can’t take near the punishment that Rusow and Nelson can.
Toney is 100x the boxer that either of these guys are, and defends himself 1000x better. He’s much more likely to get the KO than either of those guys. I completely agree that everyone who gets into the cage needs a diverse game, but I don’t see the correlation between 2 good MMA boxers and a world champion boxer and all-time great.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Aug 11, 2010 10:32 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Gotta agree with the Beer Monster. Roy showed a heart bigger than his gut against Dos Santos, but he’d have been stretched if he fought like that against Toney. I still vividly remember Toney almost folding Evander Holyfield in half with a single body shot, and bodypunching and accuracy seemed a bit lacking fom Junior against Roy. Of course it’s irrelevant if Toney gets taken down in 20 seconds. Can’t wait for this fight!
So You're Saying Todd Duffee's Boxing Is As Good As Toney's
You can’t seriously be trying to compare the boxing of Todd Duffee (0-0-0, Boxing) and James Toney (72-6-3, Boxing)… because that would just be absurd.
No doubt Couture will squeeze that fatass until he pops, but let’s not count boxing out as winning tool on the backs of two guys who have never boxed professionally as the measuring stick…
"Every day gets better for me, you know what I'm saying? If anyone has a chance to beat me, it was yesterday..." - Kevin Ferguson
by bloodsportmmadotcom on Aug 11, 2010 10:34 AM EDT reply actions
don't put words in my mouth
obviously i’m not comparing Duffee’s minimal technique to Toney’s. that would be absurd. But we’ve seen that the best amateur wrestlers don’t always have the best MMA wrestling and the best competitive jiu jitsu guys don’t have the best jiu jitsu for mma, hell the best ever user of judo in mma (karo parisyan) is far from an olympic judoka.
MMA is not a purist’s sport. It’s like the decathalon, specialists generally lose to generalists.
I really doubt that Toney will ever get himself into position to use any of his boxing in the UFC. I expect we’ll see him lose the wrestling and grappling phases of the bout in short order. But Randy isn’t much of a finisher himself so who knows.
Personally I can’t wait.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Aug 11, 2010 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
great points nate
But then i remember how great an inside fighter Toney was, and then picture a short uppercut landing on Randys chin… ya never know!
Rec'd.
MMA is not a purist’s sport. It’s like the decathalon, specialists generally lose to generalists.
This is the best description of how a specialist’s skill sets play out in MMA. I’m gonna steal it if you don’t mind. Heck, I’m gonna steal it anyway :D
I was actually more concerned with JDS’s cardio – or more specifically, his pace. He blows a lot of his gas tank when he goes for the KO, and then slows down dramatically (same problem with Duffee). If he fixes that, I don’t see any problem with him sticking to his boxing. He does throw leg kicks and knees, too.
I think in today’s heavyweight scene, he’ll do fine with an updated Chuck Liddell style. I fully expect him to KO Lesnar if they fight.
...like young thieves in a glowing orchard, loosely jacketed against the cold and ten thousand worlds for the choosing.
- C. McCarthy
yeah, which is probably why I remember it. I was surprised to see his foot that high off the ground. Not going to knock anybody out, but I’d consider it a “significant” strike.
Hey Pete
R.I.P.
i’d def call it a significant strike, it popped Roy right on the chin. I think he through one leg kick in the 1st round too, only remember that b/c Rogan said something like JDS should use his kicks more often…..but I don’t think he through another one, other than the shot to Roys face.
We all know JDS has solid stand-up and great TD defense but I really can’t wait to see him fight Brock/Cain for 5 full rounds. I’d bet he has some holes in his game that can, and will, be exposed.
He threw a solid knee or two also
When some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head up against the barroom wall, and he looks you crooked in the eye and he asks you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail." - Jack Burton
by donkeypunch on Aug 11, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
JGS fought smart
Sure, he boxed, but he also landed some nice knees and kicks. Plus, he was facing an opponent he knew to be dangerous on the ground. I don’t think JDS is one-dimensional, I think he knew his best shot for winning was on the feet, just like GSP taking Hardy off his feet for the same reason. We don’t talk about how ineffective and insufficient simple take-downs were in the GSP fight, without being able to finish Hardy, because it was the route to victory.
Duffee is another matter. Like an earlier poster stated, he got sloppy in his attack, and it was a failure of form, not art.
Toney is going to find out that, like every other martial art, boxing has to be adapted in form for MMA. It’s true for every art. Wrestlers have to learn how to finish and fight off submissions, BJJ practitioners have to learn TDD and boxing, etc…
But JDS is not solely a boxer, but exigency deems that one art form is going to be prevalent in exploiting an opponents weakness, or to avoid their strength.
in mild fairness
Dos Santos’ uppercut that wobbled Roy probably would have knocked out Randy, and I suspect a couple of Duffee’s blows could have knocked out Randy as well. On the other hand, Randy has much better boxing than Roy or Russow, and of course has far superior wrestling.
And Dos Santos did go for the takedown a couple of times, though I can’t imagine he would have submitted Roy.
by Trust Doesn't Rust on Aug 11, 2010 10:57 AM EDT reply actions
Boxing has the big advantage over jiu jitsu of allowing a fighter to clearly dominate the action and rack up decision wins even without a clean finish
I somewhat disagree with this. I assume you mean jiu-jitsu in terms of guard play here; but the dominant position game of people like Jake Shields or Ricardo Arona is jiu-jitsu too, and can definitely lead to decision wins – “position before submission” and all that. Another example would be Beebe-Easton: had that fight not been scored by blind people it would have been a fine example of BJJ positional dominance.
You're absolutely right
But in the world of converted boxing judges making the decisions, half a fight of clean boxing technique vs half a fight of clean BJJ top control may favor the boxer over the grappler.
"Deserve's got nothing to do with it." -Will Munny, a known thief and murderer, a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition.
by PapaBumpants on Aug 11, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Of course your point stands as regards fighting from bottom/pulling guard (excepting Nogueira-Rodriguez of course). If you are on bottom in MMA you are losing in the eyes of the judges, there really is no way around that.
"With gold thou boughtest Gýmir's daughter,
and so gavest away thy sword:
but when Muspell's sons through the dark forest ride,
thou, unhappy, wilt not have wherewith to fight."
~ Lokasenna
a few things about Cigano
-JDS looked amazing in the Nelson fight, and I think him not finishing was more of an exception than a rule. He’s knocked out some tough dudes with those hands, most in the first round.
His TDD was tight, and he attempted takedowns on Nelson just to show that he had alternate routes to victory. Unfortunately for him, those TD attempts were sloppy as hell whether from being late in the fight or not, I can’t say.
-JDS showed combos in the fight that Duffee could only dream of.
-I was very impressed with Cigano’s pacing after he realized that he wasn’t going to finish Nelson quickly. He took a step back and became more fluid, and decided to pick his shots. Carwin could take a lesson.
-The one main thing that I CAN worry about in regards to Dos Santos is his lackadaisical attitude towards getting hit in the face. He didn’t really appear to be in any danger from Roy’s overhands, but against a better striker (coughVelasquezcough), it could become a real liability.
"The common denominator of the Universe is not harmony, but chaos, hostility, and murder."
"Opinionated weather forecasters telling me it's going to be a miserable day. Miserable to who? I quite like a bit of drizzle, so stick to the facts!"
"Shoot him again... his soul is still dancing!"
by Ephemeral Artery on Aug 11, 2010 11:19 AM EDT reply actions
That shouldn’t be crossed out. (I don’t know what I did.)
"The common denominator of the Universe is not harmony, but chaos, hostility, and murder."
"Opinionated weather forecasters telling me it's going to be a miserable day. Miserable to who? I quite like a bit of drizzle, so stick to the facts!"
"Shoot him again... his soul is still dancing!"
by Ephemeral Artery on Aug 11, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
I think you surrounded it too closely with hyphens fucked up.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 11, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ahh, of course. I will be more careful with my hyphens next time.
"The common denominator of the Universe is not harmony, but chaos, hostility, and murder."
"Opinionated weather forecasters telling me it's going to be a miserable day. Miserable to who? I quite like a bit of drizzle, so stick to the facts!"
"Shoot him again... his soul is still dancing!"
by Ephemeral Artery on Aug 11, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wait a minute, since when is valasquez a phenomenal striker.
by kanodogg on Aug 11, 2010 11:52 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I didn’t say he was a “phenomenal striker”, I said he was a “better striker”. He has a far better and more varied approach than Nelson, who’s main offense is winging overhands; Cain integrates a lot of kicks and knees, and, in the Big Nog fight, has shown a precision that Nelson can not come up with.
You could make a case for some of JDS’s other opponents, esp. Cro Cop, but they were mostly happy to keep it in Cigano’s domain.
As I finish typing this, I realize that maybe I was a little lazy in my original post; you might have intuited that I meant Velasquez was a better striker than JDS, but I meant he was a better striker than Nelson.
"The common denominator of the Universe is not harmony, but chaos, hostility, and murder."
"Opinionated weather forecasters telling me it's going to be a miserable day. Miserable to who? I quite like a bit of drizzle, so stick to the facts!"
"Shoot him again... his soul is still dancing!"
by Ephemeral Artery on Aug 11, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
cain is a better striker than jds
cain mixes up shots on the stand up well. that in genral makes u a better striker…how can any1 say jds is a better striker? he doesnt mix anything up..its all punches, that is 1 type of striking. doesnt make sense for any1 to say cain isnt a better striker than jds.
I think you are silly.
You know that punches are part of striking, but discredit punches as reflecting on ones striking ability? I don’t get it.
lol maybe ur to slow to understand
keep up, yes punches r part of striking BUT when all u do is throw punches ur arsenal isnt that great. now when u mix kicks in like cain does well u have a better stand up game. Do u understand now or does somebody need to slow it down more?
I agree that only having one skill set over multiple skill sets is a detriment to a fighter. What you failed to do in your analysis was to examine both JDS and Duffees total lack of using Body Punches which has always been a Key Tenent of how to finish in boxing. Toney undoubtedly will go for the body on Couture if he has a chance, if he does he is very much capable of KO Couture. Body punches are key in boxing, if they are being ignored by mma practioners, then they are not true representations of the capabiliites of boxing.
by pRoXiMo on Aug 11, 2010 2:40 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Except that the amount of body shots JDS threw and landed are comparable to the amount of head shots Roy landed. Not that he couldn’t have thrown more, but it wasn’t a “total lack of” using body blows.
Hey Pete
R.I.P.
I agree
I don’t think lack of body shots was a problem. I do think dos Santos could have done more damage in the clinch than he did; I can only surmise that he was wary of the takedown because he seemed to be able to consistently land nasty-looking knees.
"With gold thou boughtest Gýmir's daughter,
and so gavest away thy sword:
but when Muspell's sons through the dark forest ride,
thou, unhappy, wilt not have wherewith to fight."
~ Lokasenna
jds used body punches on roy nelson
he may not have hit the body as much as a pro boxer would or will but he did hit roy with very good body shots
This Guy
This guy seems to think dos santos hits like toney… come on man. second , He seems to think Toney cares about what another guy does, dos santos is not the striker James is. It doesn’t matter what some other guy does. He doesn’t hit the same angles or throw the same punches. I think this is a useless comparison. James is doing his own thing, he has a different build the junior and is jus a completely different animal. I can’t wait to see this fight, Keep beeting for couture and keep hating on Toney! Lights out Baby.
it doesnt matter how well toney hits
he will lose in mma period…go find another boxer to nut hug
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