Dana White and the Impossible Prerequisites for Anderson Silva vs. Georges St-Pierre
by Mike Fagan on Aug 11, 2010 10:12 AM EDT
in MMA News
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"Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can’t stop them from doing." - Old woman from Joseph Heller's Catch-22
"Winston sank his arms to his sides and slowly refilled his lungs with air. His mind slid away into the labyrinthine world of doublethink. To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them." - From 1984 by George Orwell
Another day, another reason for Dana White to deflect the idea of a superfight between Georges St-Pierre and Anderson Silva. MMA Weekly brings us the latest word:
"I think eventually it could happen, but there's still a long road," White said. "Georges St-Pierre has to beat (Josh) Koscheck, then beat (Jake) Shields, and a couple of these other (guys). He's still got a ways to go to clean out his division."
Georges St-Pierre has a "long road" to cleaning out his division. The same Georges St-Pierre who's beaten (decisively) the number two, three, four, six, nine, and thirteen fighters in the division. The same Georges St-Pierre who is 14-2 in the UFC welterweight division and currently owns a seven fight win streak. The same Georges St-Pierre who hasn't lost a round since Matt Serra had him doing the Glass Joe dance in the spring of '07.
You haven't cleared out your division until you've beaten everybody, and we'll let you know when you've beaten everyone.
"I'm not crazy about the fight because Georges St-Pierre is a real 170-pounder. Anderson Silva is a freak who, he makes 85, but this guy could compete and I think do well at 205, so it's just a tough fight for me," White admitted.
Anderson Silva shouldn't fight GSP because he's done well at 205. Wait, who put him in one-off fights at light heavyweight because of the dearth of contenders at 185 pounds? And since when exactly does Dana White care about matters of weight? It didn't seem to be a problem when 220-pound Randy Couture fought a near 300-pound behemoth at UFC 91. It didn't seem to be a problem when B.J. Penn weighed in at 168 pounds to fight a GSP who weighed somewhere in the neighborhood of 180 pounds on fight night. It wasn't a problem for Jake Shields in Strikeforce when he fought the "successful at 205" Dan Henderson.
"If they keep knocking guys off, and enough people want to see it, then maybe we'll do it," White commented about the potential match-up.
Ah, here's the lovely doublespeak. "If enough people want to see it, I guess we'll have to do it." Yeah, right. I have a feeling we'll see this fight in two years, when Anderson is 37 and his skills eroding. The UFC will push this as the "superfight we've all been waiting for." Georges St-Pierre will open as a prohibitive betting favorite, with the sharps if not the books. It will take place in Toronto's Rogers Centre. Anderson Silva will be set up for failure.
Or one of them will lose in the meantime. The UFC will miss out on a huge moneymaker and fans will miss out on the two greatest fighters of this generation competing against each other.
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"He's still got a ways to go to clean out his division."
kinda hard to clear out a divison especially if you give people who got smoked for 5 rounds rematches….tiago vs fitch for #1 contendership????
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It wasn’t a problem for Jake Shields in Strikeforce when he fought the “successful at 205” Dan Henderson.
Most people looked at that as a set up of sorts to send Jake packing with a loss.
I think the point is that Jake won.
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by Ephemeral Artery on Aug 11, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
If a lot of people looked at that as though Jake was being put out to slaughter
it is reasonable to expect the same from a Silva / GSP match up. That is all I’m saying.
So I guess Dana is already giving Shields the victory over Kampmann?
by ufc4 on Aug 11, 2010 9:09 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 3 recs
He's not going to let GSP go anywhere without fighting Shields.
DW is going to make Jake Shields the face of the WW division by hook or by crook.
GSP is the current face, but he’s not getting any younger. He’s still kick ass great, but Dana has to have a back up face in a division full of heels
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
Yeah I’m not sure what he was getting at there, Jake is no spring chicken.
by ufc4 on Aug 11, 2010 10:48 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
people love GSP
why would DW want him to fade away? doens’t make sense.
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
Maybe Dana's tired of sharing the spotlight.
With GSP out of the way, Dana will be the best looking man in the UFC with a funny name.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 11, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
“DW is going to make Jake Shields the face of the WW division by hook or by crook.”
you can’t seriously think this?
by nastyem on Aug 11, 2010 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I know it sounds a little counter intuitive, but I think this fight would probably cost them money overall.
GSP doesn’t need a superfight to be marketable. He fought Dan Hardy and had big PPV numbers. He’s the most popular fighter not named Brock Lesnar in the sport. Plus, there is a new wave of welterweights coming up that could make for some interesting challengers.
Silva NEEDED this fight to be a huge star…until his last fight. Sonnen did a great job hyping it up, and then they both did a great job in the cage. That being said, we’re one weird/bad/confusing performance away from everyone and their dog hating him again. Also, a rematch with Sonnen would do HUGE numbers, and every other middleweight matchup is intriguing now because he looked vulnerable.
Say they do the superfight, and Silva KO’s GSP in the first round (which is a distinct possibility). GSP might recover at the box office, he might not. Even if the fight did an astronomical 2 million buys, you may very well have negated 4 or 5 PPV’s headlined by GSP that might have done about a million each. So, I can see where they might be hesitant to put their best and most marketable champion in a tough fight against their most recalcitrant champion.
Now, all that being said, I hope they make the fight, because I’d love to see it.
by McEwen on Aug 11, 2010 9:16 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Silva vs. Sonnen 2 needs to happen...it's probably the biggest draw Silva could be part of.
Also, Anderson Silva should be thanking Sonnen for building some sizzle for his card.
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
Sorry but all this talk about star power, PPV’s and posturing for maximum effect sounds a little like boxing. Sad.
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by VeeisAnimated on Aug 11, 2010 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions
If the fight is at 185, there's no issue for GSP, even in the unlikely event he loses
Much as there was no issue for BJ trying to move up and losing to GSP.
Now if GSP-Anderson was at WW at GSP lost, that’s a different issue.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 11, 2010 9:27 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
GSP got knocked out by MATT SERRA and that didn’t seem to affect his long term buying power.
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I like the fact that Randy COuture is considered a legend with a 18-10 record. That’s cool. It shows that fans really appreciate his effort and performance in the cage. They’re not hung up on how many times he loss, etc. Oh is this going to affect his star power, PPV buyrate and all the stuff that people who actually work for the UFC mulls over.
Not for nothing this sounds and smells like Floyd Mayweather Jr., a freaking great boxer, trying to convince us of how great he is because of his PPV numbers. Yes it doesn’t matter to a certain extent but I’m interested in how your style matches up against Pacquiao’s not what will happen if you lose to Pacman. 1 mark on his loss column doesn’t erase his legacy.
That’s why I love MMA because despite Fedor’s recent loss, he is still that dude.
Despite being TKO’ed by Matt Serra, GSP is still great.
Despite being a not-so popular champion, despite being beaten for 4 rounds . . . he’s still freaking Anderson Silva. All of this does not really affect their long term popularity or buying power . . . see Chuck Liddell after being KO’ed by Rampage and Rashad Evans. He was still CHUCK LIDDELL!!
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by VeeisAnimated on Aug 11, 2010 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
I could not rec this enough
The whole “a loss will hurt his image” thing is an awful way to look at fights. We want the best to fight the best. Obviously one will lose. But that doesn’t mean the loser of the fight is not who we thought he was. He is still the same great fighter he was when he stepped into the cage/ring.
Its the problem with marketing fighters as unbeatable. Eventually they will lose, and where do you go from there?
As a BJ nuthugger, I want to throw him into the mix as well. The reason why he has a group of devoted fans is because he is willing to step in there with anyone, challenge himself instead of taking it easy, and he does some incredible things in his fights. His record is a small part of why people love him.
"Deserve's got nothing to do with it." -Will Munny, a known thief and murderer, a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition.
by PapaBumpants on Aug 11, 2010 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions
I get the whole (but unpopular) simultaneous “tracking” of up-and-coming guys where they don’t meet until a title fight unless one or both takes a legit loss (Cain – JDS + Carwin to a degree; Bader – Jones etc), but you can’t try to protect guys who are there already.
Neither guy would be hurt by a loss to the other in any significant (read: lost profits) way, as long as its not a title fight.
This is why I’ve long maintained that the best fight for these guys is a catchweight fight, even if at 184.
It could still be a 5-rounder, although I think a 3-rounder makes more business sense.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 11, 2010 11:01 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It could be Dana wants to hold onto these guys long enough to make them both big draws and then try to break a UFC record. If there was a probable chance of GSP v Silva fight doing 2 million PPV buys. I think all this weight / size advantage and excuse making by Dana would disappear and he’d be telling us how he heard the fans and this fight would happen because unlike boxing UFC gives the fans the fights they want to see
by Papercut Elbow on Aug 11, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
This is true
If its ever going to happen, I think it will be after GSP beats Kos and Shields, and Anderson beats Belfort and Sonnen again.
Assuming it plays out like that, that is the only time I can realistically see it happening while Anderson is still prime.
This is much like Overeem-Fedor, which I don’t think we’ll ever see because of M-1/Fedor instead of because of the promoter.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 11, 2010 11:30 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't think its up to the UFC whether its 3 rounds or 5 rounds
Outside of making it an exhibition fight, I think you can only have 5 rounds when there is a championship fight, according to the Unified Rules. All else is 3 rounds.
Of course, maybe the UFC can just make up a new championship belt, call it the catchweight championship, and do it that way?
"Deserve's got nothing to do with it." -Will Munny, a known thief and murderer, a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition.
by PapaBumpants on Aug 11, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
I think Nevada
Recently changed the rules to allow 5 round non title fights.
We are both right
For Nevada, the 3 round non-championship/5 round championship rule can be waived by the Commission.
http://leg.state.nv.us/NAC/NAC-467.html#NAC467Sec7954
Of course, that’s just Nevada. Other states may have stricter or more lenient rules.
"Deserve's got nothing to do with it." -Will Munny, a known thief and murderer, a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition.
by PapaBumpants on Aug 11, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Definitely agree about them meeting in a catchweight fight...
Wouldn’t be a five rounder due to no title being on the line then, but three rounds would be enough IMO. Plus no worry about a title being held up due to someone becoming a double champion.
This is true, and there’s a good chance that losing to Sliva would barely hurt GSP at all. But, the circumstances would be different. Serra’s win was seen as a fluke. Getting destroyed by Silva would come across as “GSP wasn’t good enough.”
I’m playing devil’s advocate more than anything here…just saying that I can see business wise why they might be hesitant. And sport wise, I actually don’t think it’s all that important of a fight. I’ve never been a big fan of inter-weight class fights when they involve champions or top contenders.
I should point out that I don’t think it’s an important fight “sport wise”, I think it is an important fight fan wise, and I would be dropping the $50 or $60 on the PPV no questions asked.
There is nothing about the GSP/Serra fight that was a fluke
GSP was exposed in that fight by someone who had better striking than him.
Though, if you are making the point that it “was seen as a fluke”, then you are correct. Somehow, a lot of people don’t read too much into that fight. I (and I believe GSP himself) tend to put a lot of emphasis on it.
"Deserve's got nothing to do with it." -Will Munny, a known thief and murderer, a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition.
by PapaBumpants on Aug 11, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s cool if they don’t fight.
It’s cool if they do fight.
If they both really wanted it, it woukd happen.
- Silva offered to drop to 170 but then Abu Dhabi happened and Dana said heck no. GSP was VERY game for Silva dropping weight.
- GSP moving up in weight??? He has to do it properly and very scientifically because he wants to put on the correct amoun of muscle mass.
- Meanwhile Jake Shields – a VEGETARIAN just put it on and faced a very dangerous Dan Henderson. Not to mention the other guys who just put on the weight and handled their business like BJ Penn, Nick and Nate Diaz, Randy Couture and Anderson Silva. All fighters who added weight and found success.
- Most guys just simply drop weight to get a better advantage in a smaller weight division.
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by VeeisAnimated on Aug 11, 2010 9:18 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Most of those guys you mentioned didn’t ADD weight to go up a class, they just didn’t CUT weight to go down a class.
Did they fight in a heavier weight class, I guess with the exception of Randy Couture? Yes.
Were they previously known for fighting in those smaller weight classes and found success . . . yes.
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by VeeisAnimated on Aug 11, 2010 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough. Replace “put on the weight” with “moved up in a higher weight class”
I think the point still speaks volumes.
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by VeeisAnimated on Aug 11, 2010 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
If they fought at 185, GSP would be the bigger (heavier) fighter in the cage
GSP enters the cage for his fights at 170 now at 192ish.
This would put him about 13-18 pounds lighter than Sonnen was, and a few pounds heavier than Anderson was.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 11, 2010 9:31 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Honestly I don’t recall all this bickering of weight back when Royce fought. I don’t recall it when BJ Penn fought Matt Hughes or GSP twice. I don’t remember it when Gegard Mousasi recently fought in Japan and face bigger fighters. Pat Barry, Couture, Fedor give up pounds on top of pounds.
I don’t really care about the weight this or that. BJ Penn didn’t really care that Lyoto Machida outweighed him by 200lbs or 400lbs. but he went in there and put on a hell of a performance against a counter striker who knew how to use his weight.
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by VeeisAnimated on Aug 11, 2010 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Exactly, Dana is just throwing shit out there, hoping some sticks
By his logic Fedor couldn’t have fought Carwin or Lesnar since the weight difference would be too much, unless he imagines its somehow different once a fighter competes at 206+
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 11, 2010 9:38 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Jake Shields being a vegetarian has nothing to do with anything. The simple fact he has managed to build the strength to be a pro-fighter means that he knows how to properly get plenty of protein as a vegetarian
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Aug 11, 2010 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I know, I just like throwing in extraneous tidbits for fun.
I occasionally eat a whole lot of veggies and beans. My friends and family ridicule me from time to time so I celebrate the Freakin Vegans!
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 11, 2010 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
too risky to do it right now
say what you want about Andy’s performance Saturday, but he has a good chance of just clowning GSP if they were to fight right now (and by right now I mean February 2011). GSP is a huge star, Anderson isn’t, I agree that they’ll wait until Anderson is older and have him set up to lose.
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
Pretty much...
I had next to no interest in GSP / Silva after watching Silva clown Griffin.
I think Silva beats Sonnen in a rematch and blows up GSP if they fight now.
As you said, why risk sacrificing a star to someone who isn’t?
At this point though, I am tired of hearing so many people saying what Sonnen did to Silva proves that GSP can beat him. I would be glad to see him try. It isn’t gonna happen though.
I don’t think there’s much risk of Silva “clowning” GSP.
He could certainly get a flash KO, even in the opening minute, but otherwise GSP will consistently take him down, more effectively than Sonnen did.
More importantly, especially if the fight happened at 185, even if Anderson did KHTFO, its not such a big deal since GSP would have been fighting above his weight class.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 11, 2010 11:37 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The UFC will miss out on a huge moneymaker and fans will miss out on the two greatest fighters of this generation competing against each other.
Is the money part true? If it was, I think we would have seen it already.
There is potential for short term gain, no doubt, but does the benefit last beyond one night?
Think about what would happen:
- One champion would lose some luster (potential long term loss)
- The UFC would have to sacrifice one more card that could have a title fight headliner
GSP’s last fight: Buyrate 850,000
Silva’s last fight: Buyrate 950,000?
Together on a card: I don’t think they do 1.8 million
by truck on Aug 11, 2010 9:23 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
If Silva embarrassed GSP the way he is capable of doing
it is hard to imagine him not taking at least a little bit of a hit.
I know what you mean but the chances of Silva embarrassing GSP are really low methinks.
Silva’s weakness is wrestling and it’ll be takedown city all night for GSP.
Silva's weakness is wrestling, but he does usually stop about half of all TD attempts
…even against Sonnen. Sonnen also has slightly better top control and more size / weight. Remember, Hardy and Alves were able to get up from under GSP, I am sure Silva could when healthy.
I'm all for having them fight each other
but I just don’t see why the UFC would want them to
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
GSP is a far superior MMA Wrestler to Sonnen
And his takedowns are far more explosive and better set up than Sonnen’s.
I think this would be a very one-sided fight, with GSP passing with ease and and in no real danger of being submitted by the likes of Silva.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 11, 2010 11:08 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
"GSP is a far superior MMA Wrestler to Sonnen"
You lost me there. GSP being better is debatable at best. He does have better set ups though.
Almost anything is technically debatable
I define a top MMA wrestler as one with outstanding takedowns, takedown defense, top control, positional control, ability to pass, submission defense, and effective striking from on top. Good submission ability is a plus, but not necessarily a requirement, aside from the basics.
Having said all of that, Sonnen has huge holes in his game. He might well rival or even best GSP in folkstyle or especially in Greco wrestling, but in submission grappling or MMA, GSP would tool him.
Sonnen has very good, but not GSP-esq takedowns, and very good top control plus decent GnP, but that’s about it (his TDD is TBD with no serious wrestlers faced). The one thing Sonnen has shown the GSP hasn’t is a granite chin.
At the end of the day, I think GSP has a far easier time with Silva than Sonnen did.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 11, 2010 2:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
At the end of the day, I think GSP has a far easier time with Silva than Sonnen did.
Yep. People think Anderson is invincible because he looks great striking against BJJ guys, but a wrestler on the level of GSP would dominate him and NOT get caught in a sub like Sonnen sadly has a tendency to do. Sonnen put out the blueprint…a strong wrestler without a huge submission defense problem is prime to beat Anderson.
Not sure I agree
I think it’s a bit of an article of faith at this point to think that Silva is capable of “embarrassing” GSP. While I suppose not impossible, the odds are much better that a motivated, wrestle first Kos will decision GSP, which would be a far bigger blow to the UFC than GSP’s getting beat up by Silva.
In any event, the odds of Silva’s dominating GSP are, I’m willing to wager, extremely low. GSP is a better MMA wrestler than Chael and a better striker, has a better top game and is one of the smartest fighters around. Chael was able to pass silva’s guard two or three times during the fight. Given the guard Silva showed against Sonnen (and even prior to that fight), I have to imagine that GSP would more than likely pass Silva’s guard and mount him soon after getting the first takedown. If he couldn’t finish Silva, some variant of this theme would occur in each subsequent round. If they fought today (and both were healthy), I wouldn’t give Silva that good of a chance of beating GSP, although he’s still a dangerous striker and has a big heart, so I would never count him out.
Also I suspect that a lot of Silva’s luster has already been lost among casual fans, who believed he was the p4p best fighter but just witnessed what would seem to be a one sided beating punctuated by an “improbable” submission. Assuming he would be dismantled by GSP, his losing some luster would just clear the way for a Belfort to step up. Also even if Silva was beaten by GSP, if he came back in his next fight and knock out Belfort, for instance, and he’ll have reestablished himself yet again. People have very short memories in MMA.
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by The Darkness on Aug 11, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
While I debate how much Anderson will draw on his own, the idea that putting these two together == PROFIT is not sound.
I would bet money that they could have GSP fight Penn again and bring in more eyeballs than having him fight Silva.
the weight thing is big
A natural 205 vs. a natural 170 is a lot bigger difference than any of the comparisons you used. At heavyweight, 30 pounds isn’t nearly as big a difference.
█♣█
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who -- Jay-Z
Right. If Anderson is a natural LHW, then B.J. Penn is a natural welterweight.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
In their most recent fights (Maia for Anderson)
GSP, fighting at WW was 192ish in the cage, Anderson, at MW, was 185-187.
Anderson, like the other elite Brazilian-trained fighters, does not cut significant (more than 5 pounds) weight in the correct use of the term, and why would he – his game is predicated on speed.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 11, 2010 9:35 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
good point
Still, I have a hard time believing GSP would be the bigger fighter coming into the cage against Anderson Silva.
Maybe GSP should fight a couple times at 205 to prove that the weight difference isn’t important. But I don’t think he wants to do that.
█♣█
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who -- Jay-Z
by thetakeover on Aug 11, 2010 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
And why would he?
My point is simply that if two fighters fight at about the same weight, it really doesn’t matter if they fight in different classes, there is no “size difference” aside from length or height.
I’m not saying size doesn’t matter – ask your wife or gf if you disagree, just that its not relevant to this discussion.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 11, 2010 11:20 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Anderson, like the other elite Brazilian-trained fighters not from American Top Team (which is run by Brazilians), does not cut significant (more than 5 pounds) weight in the correct use of the term
fixed. emphasis mine
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Aug 11, 2010 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
true
I should have made it more clear that I was speaking of elite Brazilian-based and trained fighters.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 11, 2010 11:15 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
What about the possibility that Kos beats GSP?
Would that make the fight more likely to happen? I know it then wouldn’t be the same superfight between the best in their respective divisions, but I still would want to see that fight.
GSP would no longer have to worry about cleaning out the division or fighting whoever is next in line. And for me, beating Anderson Silva would entitle him to an immediate title fight at WW again, should he want to drop back down, rather than him having to beat two or three WW contenders to get another title shot.
"Deserve's got nothing to do with it." -Will Munny, a known thief and murderer, a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition.
Amen Brother.
When fighters are closer in weight skill trumps size. These 2 guys are close enough in to have a good fight. GSP spars with Middleweights and LHW all the time anyway.
Exactly.
You want to fight? You want to be a f*cking fighter? You want to put on the best possible fights? The best against the best? You want to see who has the better combination of style and skill . . . go in there and mixed it up.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 11, 2010 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Spot fucking on
High drama requires serious risk of failure. The UFC just had the clearest possible illustration of this fact in Chael – Anderson. It’s time for them to risk the failure of their hypercontrolled GSP narrative and put on a fight for the ages.
Everyone should keep twittering Dana for this fight.
by dribblebib on Aug 11, 2010 9:57 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Am I the only one who
has ZERO intrest in this match up. I believe both fighters are great, the best in thier weight class. But Anderson is just too big for GSP. St. Pierre’s wrestling would suffer drastically due to the size differential. It’d be like saying you’d love to see LeBron James and Chris Paul go at it one on one.
"Wait why didn't I kill that motherfvker"
But doesn’t part of you want to test that theory that the size difference will make too much of a difference? You can say GSP is too small, but up until they fight, you’ll never know for sure. And wouldn’t it be awesome for you to watch him overcome that disadvantage to win the fight?
"Deserve's got nothing to do with it." -Will Munny, a known thief and murderer, a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition.
by PapaBumpants on Aug 11, 2010 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
World Class Wrestling
coupled with World Class top control is the great equilizer. Silva’s size advantage is negated off his back. Silva’s limbs are just as long however. The only way to know is to see it.
At risk of sounding like a GSP
hater (which couldn’t be farther from the truth) GSP has world class MMA wrestling there’s a huge difference. Only Opponents that have been able to put Anderson on his back have been MW’s I just can’t see how a WW would keep the Spider down. What Chael did he did because he had size and skill. I don’t know if skill alone will keep Anderson down.
Poppa Bump. If the match indeed came to fruition I’d be lying if I said I wouldn’t be intrigued, But will lose no sleep if the fight never materializes.
"Wait why didn't I kill that motherfvker"
dadinho o caralho
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
Dont sound like a hater to me.
But,I would say that MMA wrestling is greater than true wrestling in an MMA fight. Look at Sonnen vrs Okami and Munoz vrs Okami. Sonnen and Munoz are both highly decorated D1 wrestlers, both guys own Okami in a pure wrestling match. In mma Sonnen dominates Okami with his wrestling but Munoz was stuffed at every turn.
Cool disscusion.
I wouldn’t say I have ‘zero’ interest in this match, but it isn’t enough interest to disregard fights that both men already have at their current weights. GSP vs Shields/Kappman and even Kos interest me more. Silva vs Sonnen/Belfort/Okami interests me more.
My problem here isn’t the weight difference, it is that this is a fight for the hardcore fans and that’s really about it. It’s not the ‘super fight’ that people think it is outside of hardcore fan. That isn’t to say the UFC couldn’t and wouldn’t be able to sell it as such, I just don’t see it doing anything new to either person’s PPV numbers. It’s not a fight that the average bar dweller watching the random UFC event with friends is clamoring for.
And I think GSP would take it regardless of size difference for what that matters.
Of Course I want to see it
But a Silva loss due to age or a GSP loss due to size differential just doesn’t seem fair.
"You stick a microphone in a guy's face and he calls out anybody but the champion, and Joe Silva should fax him a pink slip right then." -- Chael Sonnen.
I was thinking of setting up a website solely for the purpose of hosting a petition. Promote the hell out of it on the popular MMA blogs/websites, try and get as many people to sign it as possible, then twitterf*ck Dana with the url.
Seriously, Dana’s line on this fight has been “I guess if enough people want to see it, I’ll have to do it.” for like 3 years now. Stop with the BS, enough people want to see it!!
Nice series of articles
Thank you for writing:
And since when exactly does Dana White care about matters of weight? It didn’t seem to be a problem when 220-pound Randy Couture fought a near 300-pound behemoth at UFC 91. It didn’t seem to be a problem when B.J. Penn weighed in at 168 pounds to fight a GSP who weighed somewhere in the neighborhood of 180 pounds on fight night. It wasn’t a problem for Jake Shields in Strikeforce when he fought the “successful at 205” Dan Henderson.
I’m tired of hearing (not just from Dana) about how the supposed size discrepancy between the two is so large that this match shouldn’t happen. The unstated premise here seems to be that this fight wouldn’t be competitive because an itsy, bitsy WW with arms so short they are barely prehensile would clearly be crushed by the tallest, strongest, longest limbed man who ever walked the planet. I’m exaggerating but some version of this preposterous misconception is frequently repeated by posters and MMA commenters here and elsewhere. This is wrong for a variety of reasons including the fact Silva likely doesn’t weigh a tremendous amount more than 185 come fight time and even if he’s 200 on fight night (which I don’t believe is the case) GSP is currently walking around at about 195. This means that, even if GSP put on no muscle or even water weight and Silva truly is cutting a bunch of water weight before each of his fights, there’d be less than a 5 lb difference between them. Moreover GSP has a longer reach than Chael Sonnen does (76" to 74") and Sonnen struck and wrestled effectively with Andy (reach 77.5") despite having, what some would lead to believe, stubs for arms, at least as compared to Silva’s.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
What about
Leg Reach? Did you factor in? Silva will be able to kick GSP from another zip code. Give me a break. There is a huge issue here with size.
"You stick a microphone in a guy's face and he calls out anybody but the champion, and Joe Silva should fax him a pink slip right then." -- Chael Sonnen.
No there is no huge issue.
I don’t think I can recall any fighter going on and on about the slight weight difference (see: Frankie Edgar), reach difference, or huge size difference . . . just the fans, media and bloggers.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 11, 2010 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Silva’s reach can help keep the needed distance to strike and avoid the take down. (Presumably) That’s where size comes into play. Edgar wasn’t going to try many takedowns against BJ. He beat BJ standing. If GSP can, who isn’t a bad striker, had the advantage on the feet then size wouldn’t play much of a roll. The weight difference isn’t as significant.
I get more rec's than a Toyota!
I’m not sure whether you think it will be much of an issue, but obviously Silva wasn’t successful in keeping Sonnen at bay and Sonnen has a shorter reach than GSP as I note above. The meager reach advantage that Silva enjoys is not going to play much of a role. GSP can either push the pace and wait for Silva to respond and then take him down, or if Silva’s is aggressive, he can take him down right away. GSP is the best in MMA at timing takedowns and no one has come close to choking him out or hitting him as he’s shooting in. GSP is a nightmare match up for Silva.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Aug 11, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think it’ll be much of an issue. Just trying to give a better example of why Silva’s reach could be an issue. The size advantage argument depends greatly on the situation. If you have size\length and you have skill it can be a great asset like Bones Jones.
I get more rec's than a Toyota!
Fair enough point.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Aug 11, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I fully agree with this. The Silva reach / size advantage is one of the oddest lines of arguments around, because, in all cases I’m aware of, no one ever discusses or even acknowledges the numerous successful fighters who have, at higher weight classes, shorter or the same reach as GSP, fighters such as Shogun (76), Silva (73), Quinton Jackson (73), Rashad Evans (74.5), etc. If these fighters somehow can do it and be successful, I’m pretty sure GSP won’t be squashed if he decides to fight at MW.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Aug 11, 2010 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think a two or three inch (at most) leg length advantage is going to make any difference. As Silva-Sonnen (and GSP-Kos, GSP-Alves, GSP-Fitch, etc.) showed, it’s not a good idea to be throwing leg kicks against a good MMA wrestler with quick reflexes. Kicks will only cause Silva to get taken down. The consequences of a takedown against GSP will be far worse for Silva because GSP is going to be looking to improve his position and finish Silva. Not beat on him from his guard.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Aug 11, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
also, show me these leg length stats
because gsp is all arms, shoulders, back, and legs. he has no pecs to speak of and a tiny torso for such a massive frame. If his arm reach is only an inch less, it’s possible his legs aren’t far behind as well.
also, this is STUPID argument for the fight not to happen. If these guys are so good, the size discrepancy shouldn’t be a big deal.
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Aug 11, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
(You realize I’m arguing that size shouldn’t be much of a factor. I think you realize that but your post seemed like it was directed at the person i was responding to.) I fully agree with you. GSP is extremely long limbed and I was actually being charitable by assuming Silva’s legs are 2 or 3 inches longer than GSP’s. They may be only around an inch longer. Silva’s legs also look reasonably long though and he has 3" on GSP so they probably are a little longer. Nevertheless, for reasons I note above, leg and body kicks are not going to be a factor in this fight.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Aug 11, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
In addition, Silva’s best, and most damaging kicks are where he strikes with his shin.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Aug 11, 2010 11:50 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
"A loss in this sport is bad."
Tell that to Chael Sonnen.
If I wake up tomorrow and see that the world has ended, then that means God has finally granted my prayers.
GO Armageddon!!!
+1
That makes MMA pretty cool.
HOw you win or lose can be significant, after all we don’t want to see Chuck Liddell put to sleep again and again. What a horribly sad cliche trend “Liddell loses via (T)KO again.”
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 11, 2010 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
The other Dana BS aside
There is something to his point about the size difference. Anderson will have a large height/reach advantage and a significant weight advantage. And if he cuts a lot to make a catch weight, he might perform at a much lower level. This fight does need to happen ASAP if it’s to happen at all, like you said.
"You stick a microphone in a guy's face and he calls out anybody but the champion, and Joe Silva should fax him a pink slip right then." -- Chael Sonnen.
This can’t be overstated enough. We can not fault a fighter for having a height or reach advantage. That’s simply who they are.
Brock Lesnar has a huge advantage over Randy Couture. No complaints from Couture, just fans. Jon Jones sports the longest reach in the UFC and he’s really tall. So what, you play with what you have. Stefan Struve is long and has a great reach advantage. Roy Nelson simply over came that visible advantage.
It doesn’t matter.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 11, 2010 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Make it happen
As long as it remains competitive a loss for either one would just set up a trilogy and make it very profitable for the UFC. I think what Dana is worried about is it being very one sided by either one of the fighters. The fight should happen soon before they are no longer in their primes. Its funny how Dana blames other promotions for not being able to put on the fights that people want to see when he has full control of both of these fighters futures and he cant make the fight happen.
by Papercut Elbow on Aug 11, 2010 10:58 AM EDT reply actions
It's pretty disingenuous
To use people in the same weight class and post-cut figures when arguing about weight.
Was BJ above 155? Yes. Was GSP at 170 for the weigh-in? Yes. BJ’s never had trouble changing weight classes, either – dude fought Machida before and had significant prior experience at 170.
Was Couture above 205? Yes. Was Brock at 265 at the weigh-in? Yes. It’s not Dana’s fault that HW is a 60 lb. spread, and Couture beat a lot of other big heavyweights and again had experience in that division.
Also, think about the long-term effects on GSP of moving up for one fight – it’d tie up the title for the time it takes GSP to bulk up, train, fight, and come back down, GSP might have trouble coming back down, as well, since he doesn’t subscribe to the BJ Penn school of moving up (cheeseburgers).
Anderson Silva will be set up for failure.
This is what I think too. I’m not a Silva fan, but it’s clear Dana probably wasn’t impressed to say the least, with Silva’s performances recently, and he’s trying to protect GSP. I don’t see what the problem is. GSP getting beaten by Silva won’t diminish his drawing strenght. People like GSP because he’s GSP. The Serra KO did nothing to diminish GSP in the long run, and neither will a Silva KO. Chuck Liddell gets his clock cleaned regularly and people still love him. If Dana is so worried, he should do a catch-weight bout. But make it five rounds. A three round catchweight bout between Silva and GSP wouldn’t be fair to fans.
by pud333 on Aug 11, 2010 12:35 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
This is Chuck v Wandy all over again ugh
Check out my pic a day for a year project-
Life Through My Lens
I disagree with damned near everything here
I don’t have much interest in this, or any other cross division fight. I hate the way they tie up the belts for extended periods of time while guys are off fucking around in other divisions. This is especially funny because people seem to bitch at the lack of title fights UFC puts on, but are now proposing taking one of those titles off the table for a while
The size issue is a non issue. Anderson spent most of his career pre-UFC fighting at 170, and doesn’t have a big frame. He’d have an easier time making 170 than a lot of the guys fighting at 170. If GSP wanted to move up, he could, although as has been said, he’d do it right and probably leave 170 when he did.
This fight is not a path to some huge money maker for UFC. If they were looking for the Strikeforce-esque one time cash in, there are other fights they could make. GSP-Penn 3, for example. Anderson won’t bring that many more eyes to the table that wouldn’t be already watching the GSP fight.
The Contender Pool is getting deeper Part of why people are grumbling about this fight is that both divisions have looked relatively bare lately. But there have been some interesting moves lately. Vitor, Wanderlei and Leben could all possibly make a case for themselves at 185, and all have more star power than a lot of the current guys in the division. Sonnen has a great case for a rematch, and Okami is a win away from finally getting his title shot. Sonnen and Okami have strong chances of beating Silva, and I’d be really curious to see him vs Vitor or Wanderlei. Welterweight…well, we’ve still got the AKA logjam, but I’m very interested to see how the Kampmann-Shields fight goes. I’d also love to see that winner take on GSP.
Basically, if this fight happens, one guy needs to leave the division they’re in and make a run in the other division. There’s no reason for GSP to do that, because 185 is the land that time forgot when it comes to popular fights. If Anderson came down, my opinion is that not only would GSP roll over him, but so would Koscheck, Fitch and a lot of the other contenders. But I’m one of the few people that doesn’t believe that beating Thales Leites and Travis Lutter makes Anderson a fucking invincible superhero.
by Jason H. on Aug 11, 2010 2:29 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Very well put
The only places we differ are on point one (because I want to see the fight) and on point three — I think the UFC could do in the range of 1.2 million buys with GSP – Silva, but you’re right to question how many more fans Silva would add since the people who pay to watch Silva (or to watch a fight card that he’s on) are probably by and large the same group that would buy a GSP fight. I think the wildcard would be how much interest the fight would generate. After Silva’s taking a beating from Chael, it’s probably less than if he smoked Chael, but I predict that Silva and GSP will still be #1 and #2 on the consensus p4p poll when it comes out. As a result, the fight should be pretty easy to sell.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Aug 11, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
well said again, good to know that there are other people here who know what they are talking about.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
by Nightwhistler on Aug 11, 2010 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
the ufc wants to be a main stream sport like nfl or nba or some such but they keep pulling back water promotor shinanagins. Imagine if the nfl decided not to let 2 teams play each other in the superbowl because if the colts lost it might effect the dollar value of them as a promotional tool. Fuck you dana.
this isn't an apt comparison.
"In this fight, Anderson showed he was human," Nogueira said. "He showed he could be weak. But he showed he is a fighter and he brings something from his heart. It was beautiful."
by Broke Lesnar on Aug 12, 2010 4:49 AM EDT up reply actions
I think that whenever you have an opportunity to make a superfight, you make the damn superfight. Throwing out ridiculous stipulations (“well if gsp beats koscheck and fitch twice a piece and if silva beats sonnen twice and belfort blah blah blah”) is just Dana’s way of saying that he doesn’t want to do this fight for whatever political reason. The more we hear them give out excuse after excuse as to why this fight shouldn’t happen, the more this sport begins to resemble boxing, and that’s not a good thing.
except for the fact that this fight doesn’t have to happen, Silva vs. GSP is no where the dream fight some on here are dead set on claiming it is. There are plenty other fights for both guys that people want to see before this fight ever happens. Dana doesn’t need politics to not make a fight that doesn’t make sense in the big picture and if this was boxing then it probably would be made regardless of if it was a good idea or not thank god for the UFC in this case.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
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