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Is the UFC Playing Russian Roulette With Randy Couture vs James Toney at UFC 118?

That's what Sherdog's Jake Rossen says:

Toney only has a marginal chance, but it's a chance. And if Couture stands still for a second too long -- if that brain that just wants to hang out on a porch somewhere sabotages him -- it's really not such a good thing for the UFC.

...

A win would also delight Bob Arum and boxing's other pallbearers, who can count only on biannual fights that briefly ignite interest in that sport before they find new ways to extinguish it. Boxing as an institution relies on the idea that it's a cleaner, more mature activity. Having a past-prime Toney clock Couture -- one of the names most commonly circulated in mass media -- would be a gift. And unlike the Tim Sylvia/Ray Mercer debacle, it'll be taking place on a show people are actually watching.

The UFC's appeal in part is that it represents advancement in combat sports. You would not expect a Selectric to outperform a Mac. If it does, the cache that goes along with following the hot product dwindles. Brock Lesnar, by virtue of being the UFC's heavyweight champion, has been labeled the "baddest man on the planet." If Toney wins, will some people now expect that title is invalid until he fights one of the Klitschkos?

Couture's age means the UFC is playing a dangerous game of Russian roulette with their own reputation. His name sells, but there's more security in having a younger, faster takedown artist deal with Toney. If the number one rule of fighting is not to take unnecessary chances, they've scheduled a pretty reckless round.

I've been enjoying a pretty spirited round of MMA vs boxing debate with an older friend who just started paying attention to MMA. He's been devouring fight videos online and while he's somewhat open to MMA -- or at least to debating it with me -- the part of his brain that has learned what constitutes solid boxing technique just can't reconcile with the seemingly sloppy stand up involved in MMA. 

I sent him this old piece that has former pro boxer Marcus Davis talking about how he had to change his game for MMA, read it and more commentary on Couture vs Toney in the full entry:

Ufc_118_button_medium

Star-divide

"One is the way you stand," Davis said. "The way everyone stands so upright and staggered. You need to square your hips to defend a takedown. Also, to check a kick, you can't do that from a staggered stance. You have to center up a little bit, hips pointed forward, in order to check a kick correctly.

"That right there takes away a lot of your boxing stuff," he said. "And then the way you throw punches, the way you move your head. The defense is different. In boxing you lean back and do, like, the fading out of a punch. You can't do that in MMA. If you lean back, you leave your legs forward. That leg will either be kicked or it leaves the leg open for a takedown."

Davis said one cannot bob and weave because of the danger of being kneed, or of the chance of being caught in a Muay Thai clinch that leaves one vulnerable to knees and elbows.

But despite these explanations, my bud is going to be rooting for Toney come August 28 and if Couture blows it, I'm not looking forward to eating crow, and even worse, losing a potential MMA convert.

For his part, James Toney isn't shy at all about framing the fight in terms of MMA vs boxing and Randy Couture is answering in kind, per Franklin McNeil:

"I look at this [fight] as a way to show everybody that boxing ranks supreme," Toney told ESPN.com recently while in Las Vegas to observe UFC 116. "It's still the No. 1 sport; it's still the best sport. I like MMA; I'm not a hater. I watch it all the time.

"But when somebody like [UFC president] Dana White, who started in the boxing game, says that MMA is better than boxing -- then hold on. You're wrong there."It's this attitude that motivated Couture to ask White for the chance to fight Toney. Couture loves boxing, but not the disrespect he believes many boxers show toward mixed martial arts.

"The mixed martial artists I know have a ton of respect for boxers and what boxers do," Couture told ESPN.com. "Most of us train in boxing as part of our mixed martial arts training.

"You don't hear too many mixed martial artists going around, running their mouths about how boring boxing is, which is what we could easily be saying about boxing. On the other side of the coin, you continuously hear boxers running their mouths about how terrible mixed martial artists are with striking and how they'd knock everybody out."

Boxer vs wrestler match were a not uncommon occurrence back in the old proto-MMA days of catch wrestling and despite dozens of bouts under a wide variety of rule sets, no clear answer was ever arrived at. Ultimately, it's impossible to determine anything beyond who is the superior athlete on any given day under a particular rule set. But it sure is fun to watch them try.

We'll likely have to wait another decade or so to see a top flight boxing talent in his peak make a serious run at MMA, but in the meantime, this will be fun to talk about, even if it ends up being your typical senior league bout between two fast-fading past their prime athletes.

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If this is Russian Roulette, then they're playing it with a revolver with 100 chambers and 1 bullet.

Sure, Toney could beat the odds and knock Randy out. But:

a) Randy isn’t dumb enough to even joke about standing with him.
b) Randy has GREAT takedowns and Toney has NO takedown defense.
c) Even if Randy loses, he loses a fight between Moses and Methuselah. BIG DEAL.

I’d play Russian Roulette with those odds.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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by jemaleddin on Jul 8, 2010 11:38 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I'd say Toney's odds are even worse than that.

I think that a lot of people are short selling Couture here. Randy is still really really good, any he only has to defend against one weapon. Do people honestly believe that Couture can’t initiate a clinch without getting hit on the button? Because even staggered he takes down Toney 100 out of 100 times. The absolute only way Toney wins this is on a one punch KO that puts Randy to sleep, and I don’t see that happening in a million years.

by Manzanillos Cup on Jul 8, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ray Mercer = Some of the heaviest hands the heavyweight division has seen, James Toney = Not a power puncher

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by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 8, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's the one thing most seem to forget.

Toney was more of a wear you out type of boxer and win things in the later rounds.

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by ChillMike on Jul 8, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes but this is all apples and oranges

Mercer was and is a better power puncher(I would not say some of the “heaviest hands the division has seen” like hyper Brent there). But he had little in terms of real speed, technique, footwork and timing like Toney has. He was also 8 years older(some say his real age is 55).

Also, Tim has a much better Chin than Randy, having only been dropped out cold this one time. Randy on the other hand has been flopped funky by some rather strange and awkward punches. I think if you add up these differences you can very well come to a similar result, probably at the same odds as Mercer beating Sylvia.

by SimplePsych on Jul 8, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

we're talking about

a ~230 lbs man who’s going to punch randy couture (a fighter not known for his chin) as hard as he can. Make no mistake, if James Toney lands that type of punch, or even a lesser one like that, couture is going unconcious.

by chadington on Jul 8, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let's be honest here...

IF Toney were to KO Couture, it would be short-term gains and losses for all parties at worst.

Maybe boxing boasts a bit, maybe Dana has to find a new spin (like the obvious- Randy’s age), maybe Couture takes a further step away from that final chance at a title shot, BUT…

Toney would never win 2 fights because his next opponent would be based less on star power and more on toughness. Wouldn’t a loss to a lesser-known Mike Russow take back any post-Couture glory? And let’s face it: I would give Russow a much better chance than Couture simply because the man can take loads of haymakers!

by flassasin24 on Jul 8, 2010 3:57 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I never said anything about that. Frankly I don’t give a damn.

But to not give a fighter, any fighter, much less a boxing champion in a heavier weight class even a punchers chance? (which is around 10% chance) is ignorant and shows a lack or knowledge about mma, or common sense in general.

by chadington on Jul 8, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

What can i say...the guy's a stud.

He hits hahd. I’ve nevah been hit dat hahd before.

by xfreekx on Jul 8, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

^haha

nice

"A man that does not fall, does not stand up."

by CROOKS on Jul 8, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lets get a gif of the Mercer/Kimbo fight

Kimbo “no ground game” Slice managed to take Mercer down and sub him in a minute. I think that fight says more about Boxing vs MMA than Timm-ah trying to stand with a former World Champion.

by colonial.red on Jul 8, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Did someone shit in your cereal?

You must feel pretty good about your knowledge of obscure fights that appeared fake.

by B.H. Farnsworth on Jul 8, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the double comments says it all...

…about how much time you’re spending while collecting your thoughts.

Try to give each comment a minute or two of quiet reflection before you hit post next time.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
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by jemaleddin on Jul 8, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

My bad.

I should have thought this out better so I could be BE popular.

by B.H. Farnsworth on Jul 8, 2010 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not about being popular.

It’s about adequately expressing yourself in a way that both gets your point across most effectively and encourages people to read what you’ve written in the future.

Or, failing that, posting pictures of Brock Lesnar and wild animals – people love that shit.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Jul 9, 2010 6:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Attaboy, Rod

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Jul 8, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed, but ...

9 seconds. Former heavyweight champion. Fought for the interim UFC belt, what, a year before? And had been doing pretty well before Big Nog submitted him.

It’s all well and good to call him “Timm-ah” and to point to Kimbo’s win (which, I add, was totally dominant).

But the article doesn’t say that Toney is likely to win … just that he COULD … and I think Mercer’s win against Sylvia does show that it’s possible.

by Clifford J on Jul 8, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

sure, if you stand stock still in front of a former heavyweight boxer

with your left held low and loose, you will get KTFO’d

http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/

by Cory Braiterman on Jul 8, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Toney could win too

I just don’t think its likely.

I make fun but Timm-ah is seriously underrated at this point. His fight with Mercer showed that if you fight stupid against a pro boxer (even a retired and out of shape one) you can get hurt bad. The lesson to learn here is that Randy needs to take this fight seriously.

In contrast Kimbo fought a smart fight with a limited skillset. He didn’t need to be a world champion calibre fighter like Sylvia to dismantle Mercer. He just needed to not fight like an idiot. I think thats all its going to take for Randy to win and Couture isn’t known for fighting dumb.

by colonial.red on Jul 8, 2010 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just noticed something in that Gif

It looks as though Mercer must have been working on his take downs because after he lands the punch he appears to be ducking and going for Tims legs. It is funny that people are so surprised by the one punch KO that they miss these little details..

by SimplePsych on Jul 8, 2010 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

He talked about that

He said he only followed Sylvia down because that’s what he felt he was supposed to do and that he wouldn’t have known what to do once he got there.

by HarmlessNinja on Jul 9, 2010 4:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's possible

Toney clearly trains UFC! you can tell by his shirt!

by truck on Jul 8, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

random Gif. ... she's a keeper

<img src=“[URL=”http://www.creepygif.com/image.php?i=975"][IMG]http://www.creepygif.com/images/thumb/975.jpg[/IMG][/URL]"/>

by Gi_choke on Jul 8, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

<img src=“http://[URL=”http://www.creepygif.com/image.php?i=975"][IMG]http://www.creepygif.com/images/thumb/975.jpg[/IMG][/URL]"/>

by Gi_choke on Jul 8, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

One Shot, One Kill.

I throw raps that attack like the Japs on Pearl Harbor/MC's be out like bank robbers/Fleeing the scene, to be a sole survivor/DJ the getaway driver/Tried to dip but he dive, I socialize on vocal vibes/On tracks stabbed up with razor sharp knives

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Jul 8, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

The night I watched that film, my dog died. I was depressed for a week.

If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 8, 2010 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree with this part from Rossen:

Couture’s age means the UFC is playing a dangerous game of Russian roulette with their own reputation. His name sells, but there’s more security in having a younger, faster takedown artist deal with Toney. If the number one rule of fighting is not to take unnecessary chances, they’ve scheduled a pretty reckless round.

Couture’s age is Zuffa hedging their bets. If he wins, he beat a younger boxer. If he loses, he’s already in the twilight of his career and is far past his prime. Putting a younger MMA fighter in there runs the same risks – Toney via puncher’s chance – but makes it much harder to defend MMA in the MMA-vs-boxing debate (for those who actually care about the debate) if an MMA fighter in his prime loses to an over-the-hill ex-boxing champ.

by mma_critic on Jul 8, 2010 11:40 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Boxing people will ignore the facts

Regardless. If Couture wins, they will pretend they never tuned in, “toney’s over the hill”, etc. If Toney beats Couture, the whole MMA vs. Boxing debate has been won (and for sometime now) in their heads.

by Dr. Leo Marvin on Jul 8, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not just that, but who else could Dana fight that is realiable and willing to fight Toney?

They aren’t gonna put Jon Jones in there, they aren’t gonna put Bader in there, not worth the risk. Vera isn’t reliable enough. Tito? Does he have anything left? Who else was an option?

Randy was ready an willing and he has a very very good chance of winning.

by truck on Jul 8, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Isn't this at heavyweight?

BROCKLESNARRRR?? BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!

by zakkree on Jul 9, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

There's absolutely no risk in this fight.

If Couture wins, boxing eats it.

If Toney wins, boxing says “we rule” and every boxer in the world who isn’t in the upper 1% on the payscale and is thus fighting for $5k a time and getting humped by managers/agents/promoters at every turn, says to themselves “maybe I should try this MMA thing…”

When Lesnar took the heavyweight title, nobody said “pro wrestling wins!” – they just watched as a steady stream of wrestlers started taking the sport seriously.

Koscheck eats it.

by Ozzz on Jul 8, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Considering the fight Starts Standing

I would disagree with 100 chambers and 1 bullet. Its not like Randy is going to sprint across the cage and hit a lesnar double leg. The way Randy has been taken shots lately, I’d say its about 25 chambers and 2 bullets.

by Dr. Leo Marvin on Jul 8, 2010 11:40 AM EDT reply actions  

Why wouldn't he?

Why would Randy do anything but put his head/chin down and sprint at him to get a clinch? At that point the fight is over, a wrestler is going to take down a boxer and that’s that.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jul 8, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

1 chamber 1 bullet

I want Kim Winslow or Tan Dan to ref Tito Ortiz' next loss.

by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Jul 8, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

So 8% versus 1%? I’m pretty sure I’d never agree to anything that only had a 8% chance of working out. Might as well go put my life savings on Red at an actual Roulette table.

BROCKLESNARRRR?? BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!

by zakkree on Jul 9, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

People say you can’t do this or that from boxing in MMA just like you can’t do this or that BJJ move in MMA, but no one trys. I myself though bobiing and weaving won’t work in MMA, then I saw Anderson Silva, people say Karate won’t work and then Lyoto came along. Then was a Judo Chop about half guard sweeps and the Tozi guard pass, one of the guys explaining it said he though it would not work in MMA, but it did, no one ever tried or if they did they did not try hard enough.

by Kefka on Jul 8, 2010 11:51 AM EDT reply actions  

Silva bobbed and weaved against someone that wasn’t trying to take him down. He’s also anderson fkn silva.

Machida broke a bit from his reactive karate style to be the aggressor in the 2nd fight with shogun due partly to the perceptions from the first fight. He also doesn’t just use karate, he incorporates it into a very well rounded game that includes BJJ, Sumo, Judo and other martial arts.

http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/

by Cory Braiterman on Jul 8, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

If you think straight boxing will work in MMA, watch Kos/Daley.

If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 8, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Of course straight boxing isn't going to work.

All boxers know that MMA is gay.

(I’ll be here all week.)

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Jul 8, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I feel like boxing is starting to come around to MMA as they realise it doesn’t have to mean the death of boxing. I would love it if there was the same kinship between boxing and MMA as there is between wrestling and MMA, it would only benefit both sports. The nice thing is with some prominate boxers coming out supporting MMA and it’s fighters and with some of the best coaches opening their doors to MMA guys I think this old argument may finally go away.

Does anyone ask what’s better, wrestling or MMA?

by rask4p on Jul 8, 2010 11:57 AM EDT reply actions  

professional wrestling as a competitive sport

has not been a draw since 1908 so there’s not a lot of competition for business like there is with boxing and MMA.

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by Nate Wilcox on Jul 8, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree, which is why the college wrestling community didn’t have the same hang ups that boxing did when MMA became popular. Still, it seems that despite the business aspects the fighters are starting to be a more level headed. The promoters is another story, but they’re all so biased it’s never worth listening to them anyway.

by rask4p on Jul 8, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

The realist in me

knows Couture comes out, takes Toney down, pounds him out, and win or lose, this means nothing for the long term future of MMA. The internet fanboy in me, however, that is frequently prone to exhaggeration and panic, is freaking out that Couture is going to get KO’d. It’s like an epic battle between the plain wheat side, and the forsted wheat side of me. Oh, the drama.

by pud333 on Jul 8, 2010 11:58 AM EDT reply actions  

No, not roulette

Like others have mentioned, randy is old enough to give the UFC an out if he does lose. They will simply throw Toney in there with Velasquez or Anderson SIlva, and that will be that.

certified warlord

by kenpoboy67 on Jul 8, 2010 12:07 PM EDT reply actions  

Randy has to be careful but the crystal ball says.....

ROUND 1

Randy is cautious, Toney can’t get close enough to throw
Randy gets inside and presses Toney against the cage
Randy drags Toney down to the ground
Randy takes Toney’s back and wins by RNC at 4:19 rd 1

by Daveyboy on Jul 8, 2010 12:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Mine says…

Randy circles Toney, Toney tries to throw from a marginal range, Randy ducks under, gets a double-leg, drives Toney into the cage, takes half-guard and gnp’s Toney until the ref stops it. Couture by TKO (punches) at 2:55 R1.

You don't like wrestling in MMA? Go watch K-1.

by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Jul 9, 2010 6:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

2:55?

Somebody isn’t giving Randy enough credit.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Jul 9, 2010 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

I assume James Toney has more than one fight on his contract.

If he somehow beats Randy Couture, give him Frank Mir or something. If he beats Frank Mir too, assume he’s the real deal and throw a bunch of money at him to keep fighting. Even if the near-unthinkable happens and James Toney starts knocking out elite Heavyweight Mixed Martial Artists, James Toney is not doing this for boxing, he’s doing this for himself. It might get expensive, but just keep him around until someone whoops his ass.

It will suck for the UFC if Randy Couture manages to lose here, but it is not like MMA will have its legs cut out from under them.

by Chromium on Jul 8, 2010 12:11 PM EDT reply actions  

UFC is lucky to have Randy

1) He’s skilled and should win
2) ’He’s old and shouldn’t win’

by Daveyboy on Jul 8, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

James Toney is doing this because he can't get fights in boxing

and a win against Randy could make him a big enough draw to get a money[ish] fight in boxing. I doubt we will see Toney in MMA ever again, win or lose, after this fight. Assuming he even shows up and doesn’t get popped again.

"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe

by pdl on Jul 8, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Simple...

If Toney wins.. Give him Pat Barry next and watch him go down like a sack of bricks by leg kick #2..

8-29-09

Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..

7-3-10

BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!

by MMAuthority on Jul 8, 2010 12:12 PM EDT reply actions  

I kinda think that Dana should have gone this direction anyway.

Couture most likely wins on the ground, and we get Anthony Njokuani-esque comments from Toney.

by Manzanillos Cup on Jul 8, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Toney was half the fighter Njokuani is,

I would almost care what he had to say about his ass-whipping.

by B.H. Farnsworth on Jul 8, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Randy takes this also.

One thing a lot of people have forgotten is that Toney and Randy are very close in age.

If Randy was to lose, would his age really be much of an excuse for the loss?

by devious1 on Jul 8, 2010 12:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

All i wanna see is a damn german suplex

since Jon Jones has now switched into play-to-my-strengths-and-cut-the-risky-stuff, i feel like this fight is the best chance for me to see a duck-under-to-German in a pro MMA match.

It used to be one of my favorite moves in HS wrestling when going against a weaksauce opponent, and i’d love to see it hit at the highest level.

belly-to-back, baby

a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon

by eastcoastatlas on Jul 8, 2010 12:15 PM EDT reply actions  

Toney has a chance to catch that one good punch sure, but I don’t think it’s the end of the world if he does.

Dana, despite saying it’s a freak fight; has spoken about the fact that Toney at least is highly trained in one fighting form already: boxing.

It just becomes an issue with the whole boxing vs. mma debate. Take that away and Toney is no more than any other guy like Lesnar coming into this sport with one dominant art form. Though I do think wrestling is a better base than boxing to start with.

I think Randy’s age gives them an out for Toney’s age. If Randy beats Toney, then they can’t say, “so what? one of your prime fighters beat our over the hill heavy weight”, no they are both a bit past their prime.

Plus, Toney will keep running his mouth and Dana can just feed him to Shane Carwin or Brock or Cain to shut him up if he wins.

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by JeremyShane on Jul 8, 2010 12:15 PM EDT reply actions  

My prediction is

Nothing will change. The one skill that we fans have is the ability to minimize any losses and avoid the truth. The only difference is that on both sides of this debate we are already finding excuses before the fight actually takes place. We just need to wait for the results before we rationalize the loss, like usual.

How would we have known prior to Lesner’s loss that we would be able to blame Mazzagatti? How would we know prior to Matt Serra’s KO that we could point to GSP taking the fight too lightly?

So, on both sides, let’s wait for the fight to be over before we start talking about how old each fighter is, and how it doesn’t mean anything/means everything in the MMA vs. Boxing debate. Let’s root for the accidental eyepoke to decide the fight, so none of us have to think too hard to find the excuse.

"Deserve's got nothing to do with it." -Will Munny, a known thief and murderer, a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition.

by PapaBumpants on Jul 8, 2010 12:16 PM EDT reply actions  

I am the minority fir certain

As I really hope Toney KTFO Couture. Cause that would be too sweet. But in all likelihood couture is going to clinch and push Toney into the cage b4 working for the double and gn’p Toney. But it might be a lot more competive than people think. I just wish more mma fans gave the sweet science the respect it deserves. So many mma fans moan about lack of respect from boxing but respect is a Two Way Street.

by pRoXiMo on Jul 8, 2010 12:17 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Boxing deserves respect just like

Free throw shooting deserves respect in basketball.

Boxing is one discipline in ‘fighting’. The probelm with boxers is that they think ‘boxing’ encompasses all of ‘fighting’.

by Daveyboy on Jul 8, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Not quite... or really not at all.

Boxing requires insane amounts of conditioning, technical training, athleticism, dedication, and mental fortitude. To compare it to shooting free-throws is shockingly disrespectful in the context of this conversation.

Boxing is different than MMA. Rugby is different than football. Darts is different than horseshoes.

"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe

by pdl on Jul 8, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Excatly what pdl said. Boxing is completely different it is called the sweet science for a reason it’s so much deeper and more refined than when watching at first glance. Just like we don’t shit on BJJ we shouldn’t shit on boxing.

by pRoXiMo on Jul 8, 2010 12:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Sorry guys, tough example...

I was trying to say that ‘free throws’ are a very important part to the game of basketball but they can’t win a game by themsleves. Boxing is a very important part of ‘fighting’ but in the realm of MMA competition, it represents only a portion of the game.

I am a boxing fan as well. I just feel that people who think that boxers are better ‘fighters’ than MMA ‘fighters’ are wildly misguided becasue the comparison is irrelevant.

by Daveyboy on Jul 8, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I got the analogy, and I think pdl is disrespecting the importance of free throws. Yea, I said it.

If you don't like the effect, don't produce the cause.

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by Kneeeeee on Jul 8, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ha!

Ya that’s what I was thinking man. Free throws were pretty damn important the last time I watched an MBA game.

by Daveyboy on Jul 8, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oops..NBA

All the MM’s are fucking me up…..

by Daveyboy on Jul 8, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Still a bad analogy.

Free throws are the only part of the game where there is no d and everyone sits still waiting. It is a test of consistency and nerves, an important part of the game, but you can’t tip off then have a free shooting contest and claim it was a game(unless you’re Dwayne Wade). You can literally punch anyone and knock them out. At any given time. You don’t have to blow a whistle, wait for your opponent to stand still and let you line up and hit them.

by B.H. Farnsworth on Jul 8, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jeepers. Get off it.

Boxing is but a part of ‘fighting’.

MMA is that and more parts.

A homerun derby takes insane amounts of talent, training and conditioning to win. But it’s not ‘the sweet science’ compared to full baseball.

Get it? Got it? Good.

Koscheck eats it.

by Ozzz on Jul 8, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s a part to whole comparison, not really a qualitative comparison.

If you don't like the effect, don't produce the cause.

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by Kneeeeee on Jul 8, 2010 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wanted Pat Barry versus Toney.

There is nothing more fun that watching a kickboxer chop down a boxer with leg kicks.

by Steve4192 on Jul 8, 2010 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let me just say what you all are thinking:

I’m going to cry if James Toney knocks out Randy Couture.

by jammushi on Jul 8, 2010 12:24 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

My prediction = This fight never actually happens.

Toney is going to get “hurt” before he steps in the cage.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 8, 2010 12:39 PM EDT reply actions  

Yes

Talking with folks in the know: there is a reason this isn’t the main event….

by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 8, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wasn't aware you had to talk to anybody in the know,

since people with a vague knowledge of history and the situation should figure this out. Anybody getting pumped for this fight is setting themselves up to be disappointed. I’ll be much more surprised if Toney fights than if he doesn’t. It’s pretty clear why the card has a ready made co-headliner in Kenny vs. Maynard.

"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe

by pdl on Jul 8, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

what do you mean?

by drano on Jul 8, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't be surprised either...

I wonder if those goes as far as Thomas / Mayorga

I also wonder id Dana covered hiself up in the contract. Could there be a lawsuit if Toney bails and takes a boxing match shortly after.

by truck on Jul 8, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

thought he was offered a rematch with jirov I mean technically he still has a title for what that’s worth in boxing

by drano on Jul 8, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

technically he still has a title for what that’s worth in boxing

James Toney Title? thats just sad.

I cringe ever time I hear the MMA media interview Toney and the weird thing is they are eating up his shtick and played out smack talk. Not sure when punch drunk became so interesting to people?

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by ultmma on Jul 8, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah he’s still got the IBF title I used to be a fan of his until the whole steroid thing surprised there hasn’t been more talk about that

by drano on Jul 8, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good point

that fact has been completely overlooked

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by ultmma on Jul 8, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah Josh Barnett is like a leper to the UFC but they don’t mind signing someone who has popped twice and has served a year and a half suspended from the sport

by drano on Jul 8, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Barnett tested positive for a title fight and then absconded to PRIDE. Different story.

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by Derek Suboticki on Jul 8, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

so Toney didn’t pop on a title fight?

by drano on Jul 8, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mayorga had the same issue didn't he?

I wonder if the whole last minute law suit was little more than a publicity stunt.

by truck on Jul 8, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

no way didn’t they stop an entire event over that???

by drano on Jul 8, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

They did.

Obviously Shine Fights wasn’t in on it, butI wonder if Mayorga had maybe talked to King before hand. The whole thing was a bit of a mess. All the way down to the Karate chop.

by truck on Jul 8, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

hmm I just don’t see who comes out on top of this whole thing

by drano on Jul 8, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah but how’s he making money off it what MMA promotion is gonna touch him after that seems like there’s more of an upside to actually fighting

by drano on Jul 8, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Only if you win...

The Shine mess got his name back in circulation and supposedly got him a fight (boxing). What more would he need?

by truck on Jul 8, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

really who’s he fighting?

by drano on Jul 8, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

dont know I kinda took that as King wanting to keep Mayorga interested

by drano on Jul 8, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

It certainly looked that way to the casual observer but follow-up reports suggested it had more to do with the fact that Shine didn’t have a ringside doctor and had not placed the requisite purse money in an escrow account.

Whether or not those issues would have stopped the event without the Mayorga disaster no one will ever know.

by CB_MMA on Jul 8, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep, i love Toney, but a lot of his interviews over the last 6 weeks or so have been centered around him calling out boxers.

by sheikybaby on Jul 8, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

That being the case

is there someone in the wings for Randy?

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by woomikee on Jul 8, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is the UFC Playing Russian Roulette With Randy Couture vs James Toney at UFC 118?

Yeah, they probably are. And I agree, Arum and co. would LOVE to use this to denigrate MMA if Toney pulls it off.

As noted though, Toney was never a power puncher, but the possibility for a Toney KO victory is there. But unlike Tim Sylvia/Ray Mercer fight, I don’t expect Randy to just plod in there practically toe to toe. I think all the technical deficiencies of a pure boxer in a MMA cage as noted by Marcus Davis works particularly against Toney as he’s up against a fighter who should have the ability to take him down rather effortlessly.

by Hardcase on Jul 8, 2010 1:42 PM EDT reply actions  

Here’s another question, if Toney wins, do we see a flood of boxers moving to the UFC looking for bigger audiences and paydays, and bringing new fans with them.

The UFC could end up ahead of the game either way.

by Atgreat on Jul 8, 2010 1:55 PM EDT reply actions  

Where does it go from here

As Marcus Davis puts: all the elements of boxing allow fighters to stagger, bob and weave, strike more crisp and dodge in a prettier way. Simply put, you get a driver that races F1 and tell him he has to win the race, but instead of the smooth round asphalt and a spheric circular track, he’s gotta win the race implementing his skills on a rally track with multiple surfaces, possible rain, dodging trees, dodging animals and pedestrians, and most importantly double leg take downs, elbows, knees, and kicks to the face. Ferraris, lambos, and porches may be king on the novelty and one dimensional formula one tracks, but they can’t hang with the rugged WRXs and EVOs on the rally.

However,

Couture and the UFC both took a huge risk with this fight and for unknown reason or reward at that. While I expect couture to wisely grind out Toney (possibly with even a classic tap on the ass when he has Toney upside down on his neck, folded in half), Couture still likes to get KTFO with a good clean hit to the chin. In addition, with all that’s been said between DW and Toney I feel like they’ve left themselves no outs with w/e outcome. If DW really wanted to make an example of Toney, then he should’ve put him against Roy Nelson, Gonzaga, or even Hardonk. If Couture gets clipped and loses the UFC will still go on, but MMAs credibility will ultimately be damaged and we as fans wont here the end of it form the likes of Arum, Mayweather, and whoever wants to hop on the cool bandwagon.

So the question is, where does it go from that point.

by blackbiird on Jul 8, 2010 1:59 PM EDT reply actions  

I too see little upside, unless there is an iron-clad 2nd fight clause in there...

Randy’s chin may not be Chucks yet, but its not the strongest, and if he even gets rocked, its all but over.

Too risky for me…

Then again, I’ve seen Davis get out-struck, so…

by BigDNotDallas on Jul 8, 2010 2:41 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Is it just me

or is this a fake issue.

So what if Toney wins? What is going to happen? We’re all going to stop watching MMA?

All that will happen is that we will get trolled by boxing fans … which happens all the time anyway.

So the big threat to the UFC is …. people complaining on the Internet.

Personally, maybe it’s because I live in Canada and know 100x more MMA fans than boxing ones, I sort of hope Toney does win, so all those morons that train “UFC” will learn to respect the sweet science a little bit. That might be different if I lived somewhere where everyone loved boxing and hated MMA.

by Clifford J on Jul 8, 2010 3:18 PM EDT reply actions  

Doesn't destroy, but it damages

Toney coming in and possibly beating Couture whilist using words like “side check kick” “karate chop” damage the that credibility and reputation of one of the most legitimate sports around – especially since many people regard Randy as a legend. Not only that, but it sets us back as well. Toney wins, Arum and Mayweather both go off and they still reach a ton of people that need to be converted to MMA fans. Why more fans needed? More fans means more money and more money means more quality and better shows, talent, etc. Just think soccer – less fans = less money and why the US sucks.

Arum will burn Toney even if he wins. It’ll be a “washed up champ can knock their legend out. That guy is basically retarded and he still won”. Doesn’t really make the sport look good since it’s gonna get ESPN coverage regardless.

by blackbiird on Jul 8, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Okay.

I agree that we will all be annoyed by boxing fans if Couture loses, but I’m not sure I believe that people won’t become fans of MMA. I think anything that brings attention to the sport will help it grow because it’s a great sport and people will want to watch it more if they give it a chance.

A lot of people are concerned about “legitimacy” I think – which I’m not really worried about. I don’t think we need approval from boxing fans that our guys can “fight” as good as their guys. I think we need approval from people who are concerned about MMA athletes getting hurt, so the sport will get sanctioned in NYC and Ontario and places like that.

by Clifford J on Jul 8, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Aren’t most people fans of combat sports, be it MMA, boxing or K-1? I don’t get the whole one or the other thing.

by sheikybaby on Jul 8, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Toney doesn't have a chance

He’s a slick counter-puncher with a great shoulder tuck. He doesn’t have dynamite in his hands, he’s slowed quite a bit, and I don’t think he’s taking this fight as seriously as he should.
He gets taken down, and pounded out, period.

by Dootch on Jul 8, 2010 4:20 PM EDT reply actions  

People told him it would be hard to grapple with boxing gloves on. He compromised. :)

by HarmlessNinja on Jul 9, 2010 4:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Gracie in his mind during this fight

“Circle to the left, circle to the left and one and two and three and four and circle to the left……”

by GetItOn on Jul 9, 2010 5:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

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