Looking Back at the Rise of Shinya Aoki and Tatsuya Kawajiri
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 7, 2010 11:00 AM EDT
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Head Kick Legend has had a great series running looking at the careers of both Tatsuya Kawajiri and Shinya Aoki as they head toward their DREAM.15 clash. They've been doing a year-by-year look at both men's careers to really put their rivalry in context. The most recent piece is based on the fighters' careers in 2008. From the piece:
It's no mystery that Aoki is an incredibly emotional fighter both in and outside the ring so it was important for him to get a huge win quickly to allow him to keep on pace. Aoki's year ended with a huge exclamation mark. He faced off against Eddie Alvarez to technically crown the "real" DREAM Lightweight GP winner and Champion. It was short, sweet and right to the point. It took Aoki 92 seconds to make Alvarez tap and the people were back in the palm of his hands.The transition was complete. Aoki was now the face of post-PRIDE Japanese MMA. Aoki was untouchable.
They couldn't touch him because he was Washington Irving, Caesar, The Walrus (Paul and/or John). He was Jack Merridew, Il Matto, Joan of Arc. He was the reason they cheered, the reason they booed. Hell, he was the reason they were there. He was a bona fide Supraman.
And Kawajiri? He was in the background.
The other parts of the series can be found here: 2006 and 2007. It's a great series and a very good introduction to the careers of both men if you've not been a close follower of Japanese MMA.
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Who are these small Asian men?
I thought this was ultimate fighting?!?!
I have accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as my personal Heavyweight Champion!
Baptized in Coors Light and Jack's Links jerky!!!
Dressed in my heavenly DeathClutch robes!!!
by Worldisart on Jul 7, 2010 11:15 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
There’s MMA in Japan?
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by Derek Suboticki on Jul 7, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hoping Kawajiri takes this one
Aoki’s tears make me smile.
I have accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as my personal Heavyweight Champion!
Baptized in Coors Light and Jack's Links jerky!!!
Dressed in my heavenly DeathClutch robes!!!
by Worldisart on Jul 7, 2010 11:14 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Kawajiri winning big
sets up some very fun cross over opportunities with Strikeforce. Kawajiri vs Melendez 2 could be epic.
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Don't ban me again
but I was booted yesterday for making a disagreeable comment in Snowden’s article.. Was that a 24 hour ban or something?
Does it matter?
Japan’s a U.S. colony anyways…
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
With Gilbert Melendez as mayor.
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
and Kimbo Slice as official Breadmaker
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a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Jul 7, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think we'll have to worry about Japanese MMA disappearing
Even if DREAM fails, small orgs like Shooto, Pancrase, and DEEP will continue to develop talent. Won’t be on the level of DREAM but that’s the reason they survive in the first place.
Even if there was a scenario involving Japanese MMA disappearing, it would take a way bigger and deeper event than Aoki losing to the second best LW in Japan to do so.
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
Damn...forgot about SRC also...
hopefully they get better funding from investors…
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
I mean prominent MMA more than anything.
I am sure it will always exist in some form or another, but if the big organizations disappear and the money disappears it will hurt the sport, plus we won’t be able to see it.
that whole thing was so stupid
since Melendez and Eddie Alvarez are basically Japanese MMA anyhow.
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I think what Nate is getting at...
it’s pretty much the same talent pool.
Eddie and Gil have only been in the same non-Zuffa category for a while and have similar opponents.
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
I understand the talent pool thing...
but they aren’t Japanese and are not representative of fighters from Japan which is the issue that Aoki and most others are talking about. The talent pool thing is related more to rankings isn’t it?
it's stupid to say that
Aoki losing to a guy who’s had ALL of his biggest fights in PRIDE and DREAM is somehow an indictment of Japanese MMA. Aoki’s biggest wins in Japan were against Gaijin — Hellboy, JZ, Alvarez, etc
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Japanese people want to see Japanese winners.
Whether or not the American fighters had their biggest fights there matters not. They aren’t and never will be Japanese people. Why is that stupid?
lol
you’re talking ethnicity. Obviously Aoki is Japanese and Melendez is not.
But that wasn’t the point of discussion. People were saying that Melendez’ win (or as I see it Melendez + Yamasaki’s win) discredited DREAM and PRIDE and Aoki’s ranking. When Aoki’s been winning and losing to the same pool of fighters Gilbert has, with the exception of Josh Thomson and Clay Guida.
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FWIW I do think the loss to Melendez proved Aoki's ranking to be invalid.
It had nothing to do with talent pools though, it had to do with a big hole in his game that most wreslters should be able to take agvantage of.
I was always skeptical of how he would handle the North AMerican wrestle boxers. they aren’t Japanese and are not representative of fighters from Japan roved he couldn’t handle them well. I felt the same about Mousasi’s ranking.
rankings are based on fights won
some fighters are always going to have holes in their games, doesn’t invalidate his string of wins — especially over Alvarez, Hansen, JZ — upon which his ranking was based.
He’d already shown his knack for getting KTFO’d out by ground and pound against Hansen and Sakurai, so i don’t see where anyone was surprised by anything they saw against Melendez.
The ref took away his last shot at a take down by stopping the crab walk, he had nothing left.
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When there is no crossover in a situation like this
comparative rankings are based on guesses as much as anything.
Truthfully, nobody knows how good Alvarez, Hansen, JZ and Aoki are relative to Edgar, Penn, Sherk and Florian.
People guessed Aoki was the second best LW based on how he handled that (no crossover) competition. I think people guess wrong.
I was cheering for Aoki in the Melendez fight, but at no point before or after did I believe he was number 2 LW in the world.
I wasn’t (and still am not) sure that wins over:
Eddie Alvarez, Vitor Ribeiro and Joachim Hansen coupled with losses to Hayato Sakurai and Hansen .
are more impressive than wins over:
Sean Sherk, Hermes Franca, Tyson Griffin, Jim Miller with a loss to Gray Maynard.
or wins over:
Nate Diaz, Jim Miller, and Frankie Edgar with no career losses.
If you are ranked number 2 (based on guesses due to lack of crossover comaparison) and you get blown out by someone who was not in the top 5 and never looked at as an elite fighter, then the ranking should be looked at.
Just because people guessed he was number 2 relative to his stateside colleagues, doesn’t mean they were right and I don’t think they were in this situation. Sure Aoki’s wins were impressive, but as you stated his best wins came against people who had fought similar fighters.
The Melendez fight supplied a great deal of evidence that he might have been given too much credit.
Ranking are always based on opinions...
I personally never would never have ranked Aoki at number 2 even with his wins and IMO the Melendez fight validated my line of thinking.
Neither of us is right or wrong, we just share different opinions based on what we’ve seen.
I haven't even ventured an opinion about Aoki's ranking
I don’t do rankings, think they’re a hopeless cause.
But I do think there’s nothing about being one-dimensional that should preclude you from being ranked highly if you’ve picked up the requisite wins.
Demian Maia for example — very dangerous submission guy. That’s about it. Had some huge wins at MW, earned his ranking.
But Melendez vs Aoki didn’t answer or even indicate anything important.
If Huerta had fought Alvarez that would have been the significant cross-pollination fight. Alas…
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It isn't the fact that he was one dimensional
as much as it was that I though he would have a hard time with a lot of the top guys elsewhere as their strengths took advantage of his weakness.
At the same time I thought they had close to / equal qualifacations for top rankings. When there is only guessing to settle the rest i guessed different than the majority of the powers that be.
Melendez spent most of his career looking elite
He was undefeated for a long time, had a bad spell marked by injuries and then recovered and avenged his only losses to Ishida and Thomson. Melendez is someone I’d LOVE to see in the UFC.
Again I don’t see what the Melendez fight showed us that Hansen or Mach didn’t already show us.
I agree that Aoki was overrated, but I don’t see what the Melendez fight showed was any revelation. I think a lot of people just hadn’t been paying attention.
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The Melendez fight was the one that
finally hammered the point accross.
No more number 2 spot! :)
Melendez is great! I am a big fan! I would love to see him in the UFC as well, but prior to that fight I don’t think anyone considered him a top 5 LW at any point. that is what I meant. He has long been very good, but nobody really argued he was one of the best.
What has always confused me is why Hansen was ever (is?) considered a “big win” at LW.
Entertaining fighter? Yes.
Talented fighter? Yeah, why not.
Top flight LW fighter? not so sure.
Course, clearly lots of people thought he was.
Well, he was the first person to beat Takanori Gomi, for the Shooto title no less (at a time when the Shooto LW title meant more than it does now). That was probably his career high.
He’s got some other quality wins too, particularly over a streaking Yves Edwards, and over Caol Uno in one of the best fights of all time.
Plus, extenuating circumstances notwithstanding, he did beat Aoki when Aoki was riding high.
He has had a tendency to come up short against really good competition, but people have held him in high regard at times for more than just being exciting.
by JRN on Jul 7, 2010 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions
It absolutely discredited Aoki’s ranking. And it discredits DREAM when their champion gets dominated.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 7, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes and yes.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Jul 7, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Well sure, it discredited his ranking in exactly the same way that any fighter’s ranking is discredited when they lose to someone lower-ranked.
by JRN on Jul 7, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
when Kawajiri beats his ass too
DREAM will have a new champion. And someone who’s shown he can more than hang with Melendez. Could he beat Melendez in a rematch? I dunno, but I don’t see how Melendez beating Kawajiri somehow discredits DREAM’s lightweight class — since for all intents and purposes Melendez has been a member of that class.
Melendez split a pair with Ishida for god’s sake, talk about one-dimensional.
Melendez beating Aoki showed that Melendez can beat Aoki under American rules, period.
If someone from the UFC talent pool came and whipped on Melendez or Aoki, that would show us something. But Melendez and Aoki and Melendez vs Alvarez just further elaborate on the non-UFC lightweight pecking order.
Did anyone NOT know that Aoki was one-dimensional before that fight?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Lots of people didn't feel Aoki's #2 ranking was valid to begin with
…of course those people are going to feel like his loss to Melendez invalidated his ranking.
How it discredits DREAM’s lightweight class?
I don’t know that it does, but I can see where that line of thinking comes from. If Aoki is head and shoulders above the competition in DREAM and Melendez is head and shoulders above him, it does harm DREAM’s redibilty at LW.
To most people..
The best Strikeforce LW is better than the best DREAM LW therefor Strikeforce LW’s are better than DREAM LW’s.
Meanwhile most consider the UFC to have the best group, therefor DREAM is third string… I don’t see it as that cut and dry, but many do.
you'd have to be a fool to think
that Aoki — the guy who lost the DREAM lw GP to an alternate and then lost badly to a washed out Sakurai is head and shoulders over DREAM’s lw class.
One of DREAM’s biggest failures was its inability to produce a definitive champ. But as Frankie Edgar showed us, the UFC has had struggles with that too.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Despite all that, he sat at number 2 in most rankings
while most other DREAM fighters were a lot lower.
I don’t agree with public opinion, but I can usually see where it comes from. Aoki was built up as the best they had to offer and he did not look good.
the guy who lost the DREAM lw GP to an alternate and then lost badly to a washed out Sakurai
These are misleading characterizations of those fights IMO.
Aoki lost the DREAM LW GP to an alternate who (a) was a highly capable fighter and (b) only had to tangle with Kultar Gill earlier in the evening, as compared to Aoki’s going the distance with Caol Uno. Aoki had also beaten that alternate before, and went on to beat him again.
I’m guessing people who view the Sakurai fight as much more than a fluke didn’t see their Shooto bout, which took place near Sakurai’s prime and which he barely edged out.
There are other, better reasons to think that others in the DREAM lightweight division match up well with Aoki.
by JRN on Jul 7, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Japan
NEEDS strong, viable and ethnically Japanese fighters to remain “strong” in the eyes of Japan.
Ya’ll looking for another Saku, but all you get is a guy called Gono.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 7, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
WAR KAWA
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Jul 7, 2010 11:38 AM EDT reply actions
WAR CRUSHER
"Referees, be sure to step in and stop the fight on time tomorrow, because I might get carried away in the moment and my many punches may end up destroying my opponent." - Tatsuya "CRUSHER" Kawajiri
Im pulling for aoki. he will be unstoppable with magic paints
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by Thats It For you! on Jul 7, 2010 11:49 AM EDT reply actions
This is probably the biggest fight Dream can put up these days. If this doesnt do very well in ratings, Dream might die before the year ends.
I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
I don't understand how Dream could be in trouble?
These fights literally draw over 20,000 people.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
scratch that
They still do 10K and over.
And did 20k or better during the middleweight GP
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
The ratings haven't been great....
and MMA’s popularity among the casual fanbase in Japan has dwindled. K-1 hasn’t been up to their traditional numbers so I wouldn’t be totally surprised if FEG sold off DREAM or cut back on their MMA offerings.
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
for me
it feels like this fight is sort of a last stand, if you may, for Dream. Its been a while since I have heard any good news for them. While ive been longing for this fight, it just have this eerie feeling surrounding it.
I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
good thing the 63kg weight class for k-1 openend up, doesent do much for the grapplers tho.
I still want dream to do will, i love japaneese MMA, and the put on good shows.
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by Thats It For you! on Jul 7, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Japanese MMA will still be there, but I am really doubtful if any org can be as big as Pride or Dream again.
I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
i would think that Sengoku to fould before Dream. Espically when they Merged the NYE cards last year.
Twitter @i_c_u_hater
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by Thats It For you! on Jul 7, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
It's been show
Over and OVER that live gates won’t sustain the bigger MMA orgs alone.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 7, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Zuh?
Aoki was now the face of post-PRIDE Japanese MMA. Aoki was untouchable.
They couldn’t touch him because he was Washington Irving, Caesar, The Walrus (Paul and/or John). He was Jack Merridew, Il Matto, Joan of Arc. He was the reason they cheered, the reason they booed. Hell, he was the reason they were there. He was a bona fide Supraman.
Hyperbole much?
Isn’t it common knowledge with guys like Herbertson and Tony Loiseleur that Aoki isn’t popular at all in Japan?
he's the big face
of the era of decline in Japanese MMA. Aoki has headlined a lot of cards. Cards that weren’t as big as the cards in the glory days.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Hey Kid, have you ever put up an article (or know one) saying as to why Dream never caught the Pride fever.
I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
there are quite a few
by better writers who know Japan better than I do.
Sherdog and FightOpinion have covered it best.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
For me
It’s just not PRIDE because nothing ever will be. PRIDE was the glory of MMA, for me and many others. Even if something came out that ended up being a better product I think people like me, who have essentially romanticized PRIDE would refuse to recognize that.
PRIDE will always been Japans UFC and everything else if Strikeforce at best. Still fun to watch, but not close to the same magic.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 7, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Aoki
Is sort of in a Brett Hart/Shawn Michaels sort of place, imo. The big draws in a down time for the company (or in this case, Japanese MMA). They just need to be able to hold on long enough for other character to come in who can excite the crowd. Hopefully that will happen.
Japan needs another Sakuraba desperately.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 7, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
That wouldn't hurt
to keep the heart beating a little longer, but those won’t sustain life in the product forever. From everything I have seen and read, the Japanese people need a “hero” to cheer for.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
In a sense I totally agree
Saku is the GOAT and it utterly irreplaceable. That doesn’t mean that another hero won’t or can’t emerge. Had Yoshida got into MMA sooner, he would have meant even more to Japanese MMA. As it is, he still might be the next best thing they have had.
Ishii could have been that guy, which sucks to think about.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
Aoki is relatively popular in Japan (for an MMA fighter).
But a lot of people think that he is loved which is not the case at all.
He’s the “Brock Lesnar effect” of JMMA.
Everybody wants to see him lose
Aoki is the best they've got.
He is a product of the PRIDE decline. I’ll put it this way; Aoki is the most popular PRIDE fighter left that has been pushed the hardest.
The big star in the post-PRIDE era is KID Yamamoto, who was a product of K-1/FEG, and he has declined quite a bit.
Head Kick Legend
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You should have posted the Fedor/M1/SF drama a few hours later. This post will be forgotten very quickly.
I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
A fight as huge as this should be discussed by the community as much as anything else. Oh well, people want the drama. I wont complain anymore.
I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
should sure
but will the community embrace it if we ram it down their throats? no.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
The community will comment on whatever they want
You know?
Head Kick Legend
Twitter @HeadKickLegend
Aoki / Sotoropolis
Is the only fight with Aoki I’m interested in seeing. The frenetic quality of the ground game would be enough to satisfy even the most die hard stand-up striker fan. G-Sot could definitely light Aoki up on the feet as well.
LOL
Awesome. Deep down inside, I’d love to see G-Sot get DQed again for a major groin shot on Aoki. <3 for my man from Austrialia, but I get a sick joy out of seeing aoki layed out like that.
In all seriousness though, a single groin shot no longer gets you DQed, and George has improved quite a lot since that fight. I don’t think Aoki was going to finish him even back then, now it would be a cakewalk.
Even after the Melendez loss...
…I’d say that describing Aoki as a “cakewalk” for any fighter at 155 is presumptious
B-A-K-A-S-U-R-V-I-V-O-R
Aoki is a very real threat to beat anyone at 155
hell he almost tapped out Melendez in the first round.
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