Skill vs. Technique and the Little Things I Liked From Brock Lesnar and Shane Carwin at UFC 116
by Mike Fagan on Jul 6, 2010 5:37 PM EDT
in MMA Technique
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A lot has been made about the skill - or lack thereof - in the heavyweight title fight between Brock Lesnar and Shane Carwin at UFC 116. Leading up to the event, Josh Barnett summed up this argument when he claimed that Lesnar and Carwin wouldn't be as successful as they've been if they weren't so big. And Josh is 100% correct.
I take issue with it, though. When people credit Lesnar and Carwin's success on their size (or when they call for the inane 225-pound cruiserweight class under the guise of "fairness"), they fail to understand a critical fact: being big is a skill.
It's not easy being big. You have to ingest enough calories to sustain your weight. You have to work that much harder in the gym to maintain your musculature. Becoming a 275 pound athletic monster isn't something that just happens.
And, as we saw on Saturday night, carrying that size has its drawbacks. It's going to be very difficult for someone like Shane Carwin to outcardio a Cain Velasquez, no matter how much time he puts in the gym. Without severely changing his complexion, it simply becomes a physiology equation: Shane requires that much more oxygen through his system to maintain effectiveness.
The point is this: being bigger or stronger or faster shouldn't be seen as a knock against a fighter. "Skill" isn't just about your martial arts technique. It's about your overall package, size and strength included.
With that said, leap past the jump so I can show you all the little details that caught my eye during the Lesnar/Carwin bout.
This clip usually goes on longer with Carwin landing his uppercut left and Lesnar stumbling back into the cage. This ignores the very awesome parry the Carwin utilizes with his left land to block Brock's straight right. This is something I'm more akin to seeing from Anderson Silva and Lyoto Machida, not hulking 265 pound bruisers.
Say what you will about Carwin's level of exhaustion at this point (and Shane, I'm sorry, but "full body cramp" sounds like gassing out to me), but he had no shot defending this takedown. Brock throws a left jab (so much for that southpaw talk) which gets Carwin into counter punch mode. The only problem is that by the time Carwin's thrown his straight right, Lesnar has already changed levels for the double leg. Also notice Brock readjusting and getting deeper on the double to finish.
This isn't a minor detail, but I think this whole sequence has really been undersold in the wake of the event. First off, the quickness in Brock's positional movement (and again, regardless of Shane's condition here) is very scary for a man his size. What impressed me most, though, was Brock's recognition of the arm triangle. He set this up while in half-guard when Shane allowed his left arm to dangle. Brock cinched up the arm and moved into mount. Here's where he impressed me again. First, he committed to the submission instead of posturing to throw punches. That shows me he's confident in his jiu jitsu game (or at least this aspect of it). Second, instead of jumping right into side control to finish, he makes sure he establishes himself and the hold before jumping over. That sort of patience is huge.
This is a little conjecture on my part. I'm not sure who or what Brock is looking at, but it damn sure appears as if he's taking advice from his corner. I'm a huge mark for teams who do this well. Being able to communicate effectively is a tremendous value-add for a fighter. It's one thing to shout combo numbers or "Keep your hands up!" It's another thing to correct a flaw in technique that leads to a finish. And hey, if Brock knew how to adjust on his own, that's another feather in his cap.
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Hehehehehe...
It’s about your overall package, size and strength included.
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by pdl on Jul 6, 2010 5:39 PM EDT reply actions 9 recs
and his last name is Fagan
teehee!
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein"
- Goonisis
by Goonisis on Jul 6, 2010 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Great article
Fuck a cruiserweight division
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
Can Brock Lesnar Think For Himself, Or Is He Helpless Without His Coaches?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 6, 2010 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I wouldnt say helpless...
but a little help cant hurt. EVERY fighter receives input from their corner during a fight.
by Opposites Attack on Jul 6, 2010 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
What?
Because he noticeably listened to his corners he can’t think for himself? Stop hte wreckless hate man, or at least give evidence. Not to mention calling him out for something THAT HE SHOULD BE DOING
Ironic post
is ironic
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hehehehehe
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by Derek Suboticki on Jul 6, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Great article
And I kinda like the idea of a cruiserweight division. I understand that it may not be appropriate right now, given the depth of the HW division, but ultimately I wonder if a guy like JDS — who I think is more than a match against anyone around his size — won’t be frozen out of a division increasingly defined by behemoths like Lesnar and Carwin.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jul 6, 2010 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions
not so fast sugarmouth
a cruiserweight division is in the best interest of MMA…and Brandon Vera could predict a 3-division title run, its a slice of fried gold
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
GREAT breakdown.
I really liked the appreciation because so many people are trying to negate the win in any way possible no matter how transparent they appear.
by Opposites Attack on Jul 6, 2010 5:44 PM EDT reply actions
Holy Crap! An article that doesn’t seem like the writer is pissed that M-1 Global might be going under!
who is pissed M1 is going under?
Id say everyoen is pretty damn happy. If it happens to be true.
by Opposites Attack on Jul 6, 2010 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Again, it’s the equivalent of Thiago Alves fighting in the LW Division. He has skill & technique but he’d simply win because he’s a much bigger guy beating up on smaller fighters.
That isn't exactly how weight classes work
If you really think more divisions would be a good idea, then take a look at how well that’s worked out for boxing.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Jul 6, 2010 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
That's obviously not what I think
But it’s a slippery slope, and one of the most attractive things about MMA, to me anyway, is the sensible number of weight classes.
Once fighters reach such a high weight, the disparity in power and punch resistance in relation to disparity in weight diminishes considerably. Consider David Haye easily rocking Valuev with a few clean punches landed, despite weighing 99 pounds less than him.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Jul 7, 2010 6:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed. There are disadvantages to being so big, especially in the cardio dept. I think this is why Lesnar’s fight with Velasquez will be interesting, since he won’t gas the way Shane Carwin did after the first round. We’ll see how Velasquez being about 20 lbs lighter then Brock will work to his advantage.
Great peice,but would have liked to have seen a gif and breakdown of Carwin sprawling out of that first,deep shot that Lesnar took.
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Are you crazy? That would pull away the attention from Lesnar.
"...ride life straight to perfect laughter,
it's the only good fight there is."
by dancingChicken on Jul 6, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm a Brock fanboy
but that was some good defense by Carwin on that TD attempt.
"Overdrive the sound and make it sound pretty rude." - Jimmy Page
I wouldn't say that was an actual Lesnar takedown
Lesnar clinches first (after getting hit) and then runs forward. Look at his grip, his placement and his legs and drive.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 6, 2010 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Yea
His hand placement was really bad. That is what allowed Carwin to move his legs back and create the space to throw in the whizzer.
by MMAWrestling on Jul 6, 2010 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Damn,that sure looks like a shot to me initally,which he then changes off to an upper body clinch when they bounce off the cage.How is this not a takedown attempt?They both hit the mat for Christ’s sake.Brock was obviously trying to get him down,and Carwin sprawled out of it beautifuly.
I know you’re a Lesnar fanboy,but give Carwin some props.That was some damn fine TDD.
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Son, that was not a Lesnar-style takedown
If you know anything about wrestling, that’s a terrible shot. Yes he had good defense, but to say he can stop a Lesnar TD based off that one takedown is asinine. Hell, even the takedown that lesnar finally got wasn’t one of his best, but at least it was technically proficient.
That has nothing to do with being a “fanboy”, when it comes to analysis, I’m as objective as they come.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 7, 2010 4:42 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So it went from not being a shot at all,to not being a Lesnar-style takedown,to being a terrible shot.
You can’t even give credit where credit is due.Lesnar shot,Carwin avoided it.Is it Carwin’s fault that Lesnar didn’t use the proper technique?Jesus Christ,you Lesnar apologists are getting worse than the Fedor apologists.“No!At no time was Fedor EVER in trouble against Brett Rodgers”
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No, that's not what I said at all
I said it wasn’t a “Lesnar styel takedown” from the beginning. And Verified why. So anyone trying to say “Well he can stop Lesnar’s takedowns” while technically correct (he did stop it) are working with a fallacy. Lesnar doesn’t normally take people down like that. Look at that takedown and compare it to any other double leg he haas used.
I gave Carwin credit for the great whizzer and defense, but to say it was an average Lesnar TD is silly at best.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 7, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
This is something KidNate could have actually put in his analysis
The shot from Lesnar wasn’t great by any means but the defense from Carwin was quite good as far as his hip placement, balance and the beautiful wizzer at the end which keeps Brock from landing on top of him.
by dreamers_12345 on Jul 7, 2010 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree
He didn’t so much “sprawl” as he did get that overhook/whizzer and get his hips as perpendicular to Brock’s shot as possible which is a great way to defend the TD. One you don’t really see much in MMA.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 7, 2010 4:45 AM EDT up reply actions
The way Brock takes mount
“Worked”, but I will acknowledge that was not the best way to do it. You don’t want to mount like you’re getting on a horse. He should be able with head and arm control and Gable gripping to knee on belly-esque slide the knee over to the other side. It keeps the spacing tighter. The timing on it, however, was good.
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very true.
there was a TON of space between them when he lept over.
by Opposites Attack on Jul 6, 2010 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Also
It appears the advice he got was to tighten the choke by walking his body counterclockwise. Notice how he repositions himself after hearing his corner. Ideally you want to be as close to perpendicular as necessary to finish the choke.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
Absolutely.
the twist was necessary to cut off the air supply.
by Opposites Attack on Jul 6, 2010 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly!
Once he hopped over and had the choke i was yelling like an armchair QB for Brock to start walking the choke. Without that his arms probably would have gassed before Shane tapped.
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
by ANance on Jul 6, 2010 6:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I agree he needed to correct his postion, but the likelyhood of gassing your arms in an arm triangle is pretty unlikely. Its my favorite sub and I hit it regularly rolling and have never came close to having my arms gas from it. If you are doing it right you really shouldnt have tio use that much arm strength to get the tap.
I'm gonna give you three seconds; exactly three-fucking-seconds to wipe that stupid looking grin off your face or I will gouge out your eyeballs and skull-fuck you!
I agree with your point
But I was more referring to that because of all the muscles in brock’s arms needing oxygen compiled with the size of the man he was trying to choke. I agree it nothing like a gillotine where you use a ton of energy quickly.
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
by ANance on Jul 6, 2010 7:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Thank you for this much needed piece Fagan.
I’s amazing to me, how many people get caught up in their own agendas that they can’t step back and realise how impressive a fight and performances that fight delivered.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
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Bloodyelbow
Articles such as this are why I love this site. Watching it live I thought it was amazing how he took the advice and implemented it so smoothly…
Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings.
by TheWorldForRansom on Jul 6, 2010 5:51 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I don't know anything about wrestling
but it’s pretty cool how it seems like he goes for the shot, rises up a little bit to straighten Carwin out, then changes levels and topples him
I throw raps that attack like the Japs on Pearl Harbor/MC's be out like bank robbers/Fleeing the scene, to be a sole survivor/DJ the getaway driver/Tried to dip but he dive, I socialize on vocal vibes/On tracks stabbed up with razor sharp knives
MMA does wonders for wrestling fans
World class amateur wrestlers typically only face other world class wrestlers, but in MMA we can pit a D1 champ against a kickboxer and see those gnarly, Josh Koscheck doubles that send guys thru the fences :D
THREE MUSKATEERS BAR P4P BEST HALLOWEEN CANDY
by BloodbathAndBeyond on Jul 6, 2010 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Also
Maurice Smith kicking Mark Coleman into Japan :P
I throw raps that attack like the Japs on Pearl Harbor/MC's be out like bank robbers/Fleeing the scene, to be a sole survivor/DJ the getaway driver/Tried to dip but he dive, I socialize on vocal vibes/On tracks stabbed up with razor sharp knives
Lesnar doesn't get enough credit for his intelligence
Note, I’m pretty much in the Carwin camp on most of these issues. But all around, I think Lesnar won this fight on smarts. What you didn’t comment on here was Lesnar’s excellent ground defense. I liked how he specifically trained the choke too, because he knew Carwin would be hard to finish with strikes on the ground. I made a fanpost about that earlier, that a strategy of direct takedown leading to finish by strikes on the ground rarely happens these days even with large gaps in wrestling ability (sonnen/marquart, GSP/hardy, kos/daley). Props to Lesnar for being smarter than the analysts who said he’d win with ground and pound. Best strategy is always the unexpected.
I'm a boxing fan
Who has recently began watching a little MMA, including this fight, and articles like this one are extremely interesting and helpful.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Jul 6, 2010 5:55 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Welcome to the obsession
that is MMA!
I apologize for my never-ending assault on the English Language. I feel like Qui the promoter from Jade Empire...
Hey!
Hope you enjoy the sport! Any fan of Boxing and MMA is a great value to both sports.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
What do you think about Toney/Couture?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Jul 6, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Welcome to the light!
The judo chops here will be a great resource for you to being building your knowledge. You picked a helluva site to join.
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Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 6, 2010 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s not easy being big. You have to ingest enough calories to sustain your weight. You have to work that much harder in the gym to maintain your musculature. Becoming a 275 pound athletic monster isn’t something that just happens.
(insert slow clap here)
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by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 6, 2010 5:57 PM EDT reply actions
Has anyone mentioned Carwin’s technique when he throws his punches? I may have missed a comment on this because I have been having headaches the last few days and my reading has been impaired. Looking at the first gif, I was always taught (in karate) that you never put your left hand on the side of your left leg when you throw a right. Carwin gets away with it because he can take a good solid punch. And in defense of Brock Lesnar, his “cover up and run” technique or whatever you want to call it was, in my opinion, because he was terrified of Carwin’s power. If he attempted to slip it, he may have moved his head away from it. But lets not forget what happened when Couture attempted to slip Lesnar’s go go gadget punch, he got dropped pretty bad. I think Lesnar didn’t wanna take the chance of miscalculating and getting hit with that 5XL glove when attempting to slip the punch. Just my opinion. We’ll see how his stand up is against Cain. Now that Lesnar knows he can take a good solid punch, he may be much more comfortable in exchanges, or he’ll be chicken shit of getting hit and will do the exact same thing.
by JayW on Jul 6, 2010 5:57 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
in this instance there was no risk
of Brock throwing a big right…..
by Opposites Attack on Jul 6, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
eh, Carwin didn’t know that. He knew that Lesnar’s striking wasn’t refined, but not necessarily abysmal.
well you can tell by his body movement...
momentum, the size and weight of his body and time time it would take to reposition for a strong right hand after his right had already carried his momentum threw….Thats why I said in THIS instance….
by Opposites Attack on Jul 6, 2010 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I mean he literally just deflected a strong right
I think its a safe assumption he isnt following up a strong right with……a strong right.
by Opposites Attack on Jul 6, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I mentioned it
before the fight. :)
A good counter puncher would fuck Carwin’s world up.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 6, 2010 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed.
a technically sound striker….in this case it would require a right kick using that directional momentum with some good hip rotation….but yeah, a good counter striker would wreck carwin. Cain and Carwin…..thatd be nice. lesnar and cain…..also nice. im good with both.
by Opposites Attack on Jul 6, 2010 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s dropping his left hand because he’s loading it up to finish the combo with the left uppercut. You’re right that he’s leaving himself vulnerable if say, brock had followed up the right hand with a right head kick, but apparently it was a risk he was willing to take.
by mictlantechutli on Jul 6, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
i wish we could see a gif of that uppercut
my brother broke our DVR and I lost the 116 recording. Im so pissed. My girl really wanted to see the fight thursday night when she comes up from LA but no such luck…
by Opposites Attack on Jul 6, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions
That's not even good mechanics for loading up
I’m a big baseball fan, and that is exactly what what you don’t want to see from a pitcher and the mechanics of pitching vs. punching are surprisingly similar.
This might be a little too nuanced to explain without demonstrating, but one of the most important mechanics big league pitchers utilize is a "tight front side"—-you want to use your lead arm for rotational energy but when you have finished that rotation, you want your glove hand and body to "come together" basically. Randy Johnson is pretty much the gold standard of this, here you can see him leveraging his front side as he scap loads his throwing shoulder, and then as his torso rotates he keeps his glove side tight as his body and front side arm come together. You see the same thing in a lot of NFL QB’s, Drew Brees coming to mind. On the other hand, Dontrelle Willis has shown at times probably the worst front side mechanics in MLB history: in related news, he’s lost his velocity and has no idea where the ball is going. But this action increases velocity (yay rotational torque) AND improves your control and it seems boxers/punchers use the very same thing in fighting aside from just not dropping your hands.
GSP does this(even on the punch where he held Fitch’s leg, his lead arm “comes together with his body”), not to turn this into another stupid Fedor thread, but he does it picture perfect. And then same with Rashad. It’s a surprisingly unnatural, learned mechanic that is NOT just “keep your hands up”—-and you can see it in guys like Hardy who it appears were just taught it like that.
It blows my mind that #1 Carwin’s technique here could be that bad #2 that he’s able to generate the power that he does.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jul 6, 2010 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
He does it EVERY left he throws
EVERY ONE.
Crocop before the deroiding would’ve put him in the cemetary.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 6, 2010 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions
And Ali wouldnt have been so amazing if he hadnt been so fast………or Joe Frazier’s utterly inhuman ability to absorb punishment…………or Tyson’s blazing handspeed for a HW………..or George Foreman’s ridiculous power. Physical attributes are physical attributes. Brock’s just happen to be ridiculous size and athleticism for someone so large. So there you have it.
"Without severely changing his complexion, it simply becomes a physiology equation: Shane requires that much more oxygen through his system to maintain effectiveness."
WTF does his skin tone have to do with anything?
http://fightdrinker.blogspot.com
by some schmuck in texas on Jul 6, 2010 6:00 PM EDT reply actions
You might want to try consulting a dictionary before calling people out.
“2. General character, aspect, or appearance”
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
I’ll bet 1 referred to skin color, although you don’t provide a link.
Anyway, what do his “general character, aspect, or appearance” have to do with his gas tank? I don’t think you’re guilty of believing in or cracking wise about the whole unfunny ‘blacksplosiveness’ gag that recurs on this site (mostly in ref. to Jackson and Jones) but it does seem like a poor choice of words.
http://fightdrinker.blogspot.com
by some schmuck in texas on Jul 7, 2010 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions
He would have to seriously trim down and lose a bunch of muscle mass to be able to compete with the Cains and Fedors of the world in the cardio department.
And number one did refer to skin color, but words have multiple meanings.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
The sentence would have been better served having
the word “body” placed in front of “complexion” as a grammatical modifier in order to limit the meaning of complexion to one definition and properly convey the intended usage.
:)
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 7, 2010 4:48 AM EDT up reply actions
intriguing in poetry or novels
in reportage…not so much.
Now let me get on you ass about the usage of “Akin” – what you mean was “Accustomed”
I’m very affordable as a proofreader and copyeditor, btw.
http://fightdrinker.blogspot.com
by some schmuck in texas on Jul 7, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
you ass?
your ass
wow, was that a bad time to make a dumb typo!
http://fightdrinker.blogspot.com
by some schmuck in texas on Jul 7, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/complexion
The most common usage of the word complexion is in reference to skin tone. In face, I’ve never heard the 2 usage Mike lists above out loud or in print before.
http://fightdrinker.blogspot.com
by some schmuck in texas on Jul 7, 2010 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions
You’ve never heard a reporter or analyst talk about the “complexion of a team”?
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
I have not
I don’t follow team sports though.
http://fightdrinker.blogspot.com
by some schmuck in texas on Jul 7, 2010 7:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Are you kidding?
You’ve seriously never heard the word complexion used in any other way? You’re just busted Fagan’s balls right?
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
Size, strength, speed, etc aren't really skills
they’re attributes, but I entirely agree with what you’re saying. Being better than everyone else is what sports is all about. It doesn’t really matter how. Pro sports is about being bigger, stronger and faster.
Whiny babies who were shit athletes growing up and never played a sport in their lives are the ones making the shitty “he only wins because he’s a great athlete” argument.
Examples I’ve been hearing for years:
Bo Jackson was only good because he was a great athlete. He didn’t have any skill.
Mark McGwire was only good because he had huge power. He couldn’t really hit. Look how many times he strikes out!
Ditto Jose Canseco and pretty much every other big slugger who didn’t hit .300+
Shaq is only good because he’s so big. He can’t even make free throws!
What’s next? Usain Bolt is only good because he’s tall? Or he’s only good because he’s fast?
by Electro Boy on Jul 6, 2010 6:00 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Ali was only good because he was so much faster then everyone else. MAnute Bol only blocked so many shots because he was so tall.
Finally someone who understands that building and maintaning that muscular base, while having cardio is an huge task.
And is probably THE most impressive thing about Brock Lesnar...
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by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 6, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep, throw in the speed and agility as well. Freakish…
by Kwisatz Haderach on Jul 6, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
considering he lost 50 lbs from divericulosis....
even more impressive.
by Opposites Attack on Jul 6, 2010 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s scary that Carwin is throwing arm punches (or with very little hip torque) and still is able to generate so much power.
"...ride life straight to perfect laughter,
it's the only good fight there is."
in the 2nd gif
do you think that the pre fight work brock did with randy helped set up his takedowns or was he already setting up takedowns with punches in his previous fights?
He always set up his takedowns with a 1-2 combo and then with a jab--> change of levels
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 6, 2010 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Carwin’s power + decent technique = !!!!!!!!!
If he ever starts training with someone like Freddie Roach, they better get a stronger cage – because he’ll start punching people right through it.
You don't like wrestling in MMA? Go watch K-1.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Jul 7, 2010 3:26 AM EDT up reply actions
I hate when people use the size argument...
I especially hate it when they say he just uses it by being big and having no technique.
Uhh. Zulu and HMC are pretty bad and they are huge.
This my 4th account. Dont ban me bro!!!
Finally
That fight wasn’t some sloppy heavyweight match up between 2 beginers. These guys train everyday and this is proof that those people who were quick to call this fight “sloppy” were obviously wrong.
Chris Leben is my hero
Sandstorm Remix bless your heart kid... Bless your heart
by II SMASH II on Jul 6, 2010 6:23 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
This is an awesome post.
I’m becoming a much bigger fan of your work Fagan. Really great stuff here.
Awesome find on Brock looking up and taking advice from his corner. I also mark out real hard for that kind of thing. A lot of fighters don’t know how to take direction and completely forget about their corner in the middle of a fight.
Since this fight, albeit for the wrong reasons, keeps getting compared to Hughes-Trigg part 2 then it should be noted that Hughes picked Trigg up and carried him across the cage for that slam for the sole reason of finding his corner so they could talk to him. Really great stuff.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
I think it should be compared to Mir Lesnar I. I can’t wait for the rematch when Carwin yells “I pulled that horseshoe out of his ass and hit him over the head with it”.
Ubereem is here to kill the Finkelstein monster!
by frosty31 on Jul 6, 2010 6:55 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You don't think Lesnar will have learned anything from this by then?
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
Love the Article Mike
When I saw Carwin parry that shot I wondered: “Why the F*** didn’t I see that on fight night!?”
I apologize for my never-ending assault on the English Language. I feel like Qui the promoter from Jade Empire...
Judo Chop not going to happen on this fight now due to the brilliance of this post?
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
Nah
We’re getting a Judo Chop on Joe Silva’s reaction to the the Harris Slam.
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
by Damon O. on Jul 6, 2010 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Now in the second gif, Silva has already realized that a slam is about to happen, and is properly grimacing in anticipation of what’s about to happen, as opposed to Rogan, who is still waiting for Eddie Bravo to yell, “OH SHIT HE’S GONNA SLAM HIM.” This grimace is becoming more and more common in MMA, and was recently displayed by Mark Coleman in anticipation of getting fucked up by Randy Couture.
So much cock. A cock guy.
by inadvertentgroinstrike on Jul 7, 2010 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions
"Without severely changing his complexion..."
I think Josh has some information on that.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
I've been waiting to hear from you about this fight
Please, give us some meaty Lesnar hate
I throw raps that attack like the Japs on Pearl Harbor/MC's be out like bank robbers/Fleeing the scene, to be a sole survivor/DJ the getaway driver/Tried to dip but he dive, I socialize on vocal vibes/On tracks stabbed up with razor sharp knives
Hey! I'm in the middle of making fun of Josh Barnett for using steroids here!
Wait your turn!
But the only thing I didn’t like about the Lesnar/Carwin fight (aside from the results!) was that after getting rocked, knocked down, and pounded until blood was coming out of the corner of his eyes while he turtled up, Brock celebrated by punching himself in the chin as if to say that none of that hurt him.
Which is… a little odd, no?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
A Mike Fagan Judo Chop! We shall call it…the Syrup Chug.
I’ll be here all week.
http://www.instrength.com
For all those bitching about size and wanting a cruiserweight division, let’s try to make a list of all relevant fighters who wouldn’t drop down to that cruiserweight class, which let’s say would be around 230-235. Basically the leftovers.
Brock, Shane, maybe Frank Mir because he is THAT obsessed with Brock, maybe Overeem even though he might be able to make 235, Big Foot, Brett Rogers, Ben Rothwell….
Who’s left? That’s only 7 guys, spread across organizations.
Who else?
Roy Nelson. Semmy? Duffee? Dan Christison? The last three are not exactly top guys.
Forgot to add
how shitty that weight class is, basically 7 guys spread out across organizations and freak shows like Zulu, HMC and Akebono to fill the gap.
I've had a flashback to my Sports Science lessons at school
and can still hear my lecturers shouting “That’s not skill, that’s ability!”. Being ‘big’ is not a skill. Nor is being fast, or strong, or combined – powerful. Endurance is not a skill. Stamina is not a skill. They’re all abilities.
But yes, as abilities, they can be trained to enhance and optimise.
You may think I’m being pedantic, but in the sports training world there is a clear definition for skill, and a clear definition for ability, and while they are related they are not the same.
My perspective on the fight
Brock didn’t impress me with his skills. I said it. I’m sure I’ll be slammed, but I hope you read the rest before doing so,
He didn’t impress me with them because he didn’t get a chance to. He got murdered the first round. And why do we know he got murdered, because that is what made the fight special. A man got put in the worst place possible for almost a whole round and survived. That’s what impressed me about Brock, that he was able to survive sledgehammer blows from Carwin and not fold. That’s – - fucking amazing!
The takedown and triangle choke might be a good display of talent but I can’t really say definitely, Carwin seemed pretty gassed and didn’t look like he had any energy left to defend. This fight will be remembered for Brock hanging on while getting pommelled, regaining his composure, and then getting back up and winning. It might not have been a great showcase for Brock’s skills (and I think the guy is friggin’ talented, especially for a big man) but it was a showcase for his mental and physical fortitude.
Someone compared this to Fedor vs Fujita, and it was. X 10! And just like the Fujita fight told us more about Fedor’s toughness than being a showcase for his mma prowess, I think this fight does the same with Brock.
This fight asked as many questions as it answered. We now know that Carwin can hold his own and that Brock has a chin. Did it expose Brock? Maybe, but unless anyone else can actually do the same then all it tells us it that Carwin is really good.
Some people seem to hate the suggestion that this fight might have revealed a weakness in Brock. I think it makes things more interesting. Can Cain, JDS, Carwin ( if given a second try) and possibly even Overeem or Fedor defeat him? Who knows? But it will be fun to find out. And personally I think Superman wouldn’t be nearly as interesting if Kryptonite wasn’t out there to threaten him.
by John Nash on Jul 6, 2010 7:11 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
I don’ think anyone would fault you for saying particular aspects of Brock were unimpressive. But, as you go on to state, the fight itself was empirically impressive.
You would be surprised
Someone asked me “what my fucking problem was” for stating what I stated here on the replies to the Snowden article after the fight. People were pretty sensitive that night.
Thanks for taking the time to write something insightful and interesting.
But if you look at the top of the page you’ll see the comment of mine that got green’d. I’m not sure if that will explain something about the community or raise more questions about it, but it will certainly mean something.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Jul 6, 2010 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Nah,after four days of BE Civil War and high horsery,
folks are ready for a nonsensical laugh
Yoplait....Fruit on the bottom,hope on top.
Well I guess I can’t speak for everyone. Mr. Snowden just got everyone stirred up because he wrote a post detailing the deficiencies of the two fighters without acknowledging that in spite of the deficiencies it was an incredibly inspiring fight. After the fight everyone is all jacked up saying “Wow what a great night of fights!” only for that article to be a giant turd in the punchbowl. If he had written what you did it would have been no big deal and a lot less angst. IMO that’s what he’s going for though. But I’ve never met the man so that’s just my guess.
thank you.
the people who fail to find that impressive are sick in the head. I would personally love to watch each and every one of them take those shots from carwin and then see what happens….that uppercut would detach most heads from their respective bodies, let alone the pounding afterword…..and then the lightening quick standup and spin at the earliest opportunity? unreal…..truly unbelievable.
If you fail to find that impressive then you are messed up in the brain
by Opposites Attack on Jul 6, 2010 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions
even with Kryptonite
Superman isn’t interesting. Other than Kryptonite, which isn’t exactly laying around, it’s not like you can pick some up at your local gas station, nothing can hurt him.
Superman is one of the lamest characters ever.
There’s MUCH more I could say on the subject, but this isn’t the place to say it.
Electro Boy
You can rag on Fedor, call Randy Couture a joke, or tell me Anderson Silva is overrated but don’t speak bad about Superman.
Without Superman there would be no other super-heroes. None. All their roots spring from him. He is also the most metaphorical of super-heroes, being able to represent a number of abstract concepts. The immigrant experience trying to assimilate into American, as an analogy for America as a superpower, man’s relationship with technology, as a messiah figure, etc. The list is endless. Admit defeat and lets move on.
by John Nash on Jul 6, 2010 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Man…I want to have a big ol’ comic nerd argument with you.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 6, 2010 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions
All-Star Superman is excellent...
…as is any of the various stories Alan Moore wrote…
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 6, 2010 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Batman
whoops his ass pretty much everytime. Doomsday killed him without kryptonite.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 6, 2010 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Rec'd
But you should also point out that the fight easily could have been stopped.
Note that I didn’t say should but could. The ref made the right decision (obviously) but it would not have been the wrong decision to stop it. He has to think of the fighter’s health – remember that poor fellow that died recently. Brock was arguably turtling and not defending himself intelligently and the fight arguably could (but obviously not should) have been stopped.
As a a further note, isn’t this ref the same one who let Frank Mir take such an unholy beating from Carwin? Maybe it wasn’t so much awesome reffing as just his style. Anyway, that’s not the point.
The point is that a lot of the reason people aren’t giving Lesnar full credit for his “skills” (as opposed to his heart) is that he was luck another ref wasn’t in there. Even if stopping the fight would have been totally wrong (and for the reasons I stated above, I personally don’t think it would have been totally wrong, even though it was obviously the right decision to keep it going) it might have happened.
Anyway, great post.
I should add
I’m very anxious to see Lesnar’s next fight – the problem is with only 5 wins people can say you’re getting lucky – they won’t be able to say that if he beats Cain, JDS, Fedor, whoever.
The second GIF is likely key to a Cain fight
I see Cain trying to use his wrestling to keep it standing, where his pace, quickness and superior boxing provide larger edges than grappling with a larger, similarly credentialed wrestler.
If that’s indeed the case, Cain will need to be careful about when he throws punches because that’ll be the opening that allows Brock to take him down and likely land some damaging GnP before Cain manages to get out, and scoring rounds for Brock. No matter how good your wrestling, it’s tough to stop a takedown if you’re putting your weight into a punch and not using that hand to help defend.
This will be even more pronounced because Cain will need to outpoint him and doesn’t have Carwin’s freakish power, so Cain will be throwing more frequently, and Brock will be more willing to risk a punch in the face to land the takedown.
great article....this was probably my favorite moment of the fight
"Players are gods, the stands are the pews, football is the new religion."
Brock-a-roni?
My avatar has Bas Rutten and Terry Funk in it...therefore it's the manliest avatar on SB Nation.
I wanted to see the deadlift gutwrench he gave to Tuchscherer from off his back.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 6, 2010 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Rec'd for two reasons
first, it was pretty much the turning point of the fight, second, I love your sig.
That had me out of my chair cheering like a sonofabitch
And I knew it was on.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 6, 2010 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions
It did confirm me that Brock is like the BJJ fighter who gets punched in the face for the first time. They don’t like it and tend to shell up. I don’t think he was ever “rocked”, just wasn’t used to eating a combination of punches. I was impressed with Lesnar’s cardio but this fight just showed more glaring holes in his overall game. It also revealed that Carwin needs to work on his cardio big time.
the first .gif shows brock's total unwillingness to take a punch
once he saw that carwin was going to throw that right he just wrapped his elbows around his face and ducked for cover, in the process leaving him WIDE OPEN for that uppercut. maybe that’s what brock’s striking coaches tell him— don’t worry about counterpunching because it’s not your game, but that kind of defense against a junior dos santos would be the end. impressive technique from brock no doubt, but his unwillingness to take a punch is a major weakness.
by Trust Doesn't Rust on Jul 6, 2010 8:40 PM EDT reply actions
It's one thing to take a punch from JDS
but a completely different story to take one from Carwin. I agree though, he needs to work on this
Would YOU want to take a Carwinfist dead-on?
Carwin doesn’t have the greatest combos, if I’m not mistaken, so he didn’t worry about that. Against Cain or JDS, he probably knows he needs to tighten that. He’s not stupid, despite what so many haters desire.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 6, 2010 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Are YOU a UFC champion MMA fighter?
Yeah, neither am I. I would expect guys who get punched in the face for a living, much less the guy who’s declared the best in the world at it, to respond to an impending blow with anything other than a duck and cover defense. Even just basic head movement, which I’m sure Brock has been drilled on. The revealing thing to me about that gif is that he was doing that after what was basically Carwin’s first blow of the night, and it was the overhand right not the uppercut. It’s not like he’d almost been obliterated by Carwin’s power and so was gunshy. This was one of the first punches he was receiving in the fight, and the way he defended left him open to the giant uppercut he received.
by Trust Doesn't Rust on Jul 6, 2010 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s the difference between “cowering” and “poor defense” that others have discussed at length. Even if he was scared of the Carwinfist, why shouldn’t he be? Weren’t people scared of Chuck’s overhand right for a long time?
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 6, 2010 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
He should have taken the punches head on
just like Mir, Gonzage, Wain and Wellisch. Those guys are true champions cause they let Carwin hit them with no sort of game plan. They got rocked and got finished just like any true champion should.
Brock pussed out and won the fight. He is a coward!
I'm a man who discovered the wheel and built the Eiffel Tower out of metal and brawn. That's what kind of man I am. You're just a woman with a small brain. With a brain a third the size of us. It's science
brock didn’t need to rush in wildly looking for a knockout blow like gonzaga, but his cowering at Carwin’s first punch turned out to be terribly poor defense because it left him extremely vulnerable to the uppercut that carwin rocked him with. as we saw with most of chuck’s opponents during his prime, if you’re scared of a punch then you’re actually more likely to get hit by it.
by Trust Doesn't Rust on Jul 7, 2010 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Good article, the things brought up here were indeed some pretty impressive stuff.
I can however also see the point of those who weren’t completely impressed by Lesnar. He did show some glaring holes in his standup and even more so how he reacted after getting hit.
One thing I don’t think I’ve seen anyone bring up is how it seems that when he went down it wasn’t really any one strike that dropped him but he just dropped down by himself into fetal position covering up while being chased around the ring by Carwin. Which leads me to believe someone who maybe don’t hit quite as hard as Carwin but hard enough and with more speed and accuracy like say JDS, Overeem or maybe Cain (not quite as sold on his standup as some seem to be) could maybe do the same and better. Not to say it would be a sure thing or easy, but a definite possibility.
The Junior Dos Santos bandwagon really completely ignores the fact that he’s almost sure to get taken down without being able to get up. Carwin had to stuff multiple takedowns before reigning down on Brock. Junior Dos Santos will not be able to. He has no wrestling background of note, he is stylistically doomed in the fight.
This happens every once in a while when a UFC guy goes on a run without having to fight any wrestlers. Reminds me a little bit of Dan Hardy’s run before GSP.
And this doesn’t just apply to Brock. I suspect he will be grounded and stopped by Cain, Carwin, and Lesnar.
by Michael Rome on Jul 7, 2010 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Wonderfully said.
JDS has a ton of highlights and that means he tends to get overrated, whether people want to admit it or not. He could be a monster on the ground or he could be really slick with submissions but we just don’t know that.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
Always assume that if you haven’t seen it, there’s a reason for it. Guys don’t avoid their strong suits. There are occasional exceptions, but it’s fair to guess that his jits is solid and his wrestling is probably average.
by Michael Rome on Jul 7, 2010 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I can never get behind a high level striker.
There are too many ways to beat a guy who’s main offense is knocking guys out. I love watching him fight but by fighting the way he has he is setting himself up for a monumental fall. The guys at the top are big time wrestlers. He has to be drilling the hell out of that in camp and if he’s not then he’ll get run over.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
Guys don’t avoid their strong suits.
Plz post more.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 7, 2010 3:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Doesn't it remind you of Anderson Silva?
(And Hendo isn’t a wrestler.)
by The Darkness on Jul 7, 2010 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Good Article
1. Brock’s double in the second round was set up well and his execution was excellent. You’ll notice that, right before he finishes the double, his hands slide down Carwin’s legs and end up directly behind his knees. Brock also places his right knee between Shane’s legs, which helps him to maximize his ability to drive through Carwin. Two common reasons doubles fail are you don’t get deep enough on the shot, and your ability to life or power through your opponent is dramatically reduced, and your hands are too high up on your opponent’s leg, which allows him to use his hips to generate space and make it more difficult for you to finish the shot.
2. Brock’s training his BJJ with a former two time absolute BJJ champion, Rodrigo Comprido, who’s said that Brock’s is the ideal student — he always pays close attention, always does what he’s told and never complains. (He also interestingly said that Brock has a very active guard.) It’s no suprise Brock’s BJJ is coming along so well or that he would look for and finish a sub if the opportunity presented itself.
3. I would also have added a gif of Carwin’s whizzer counter to Brock’s failed double leg in the first round. That was an impressive display of skill and atheliticism. I’ve been watching a lot of MMA lately and that whizzer was one of the better defenses of a takedown I’ve seen in some time.
Scroll up for Whizzer gif
And even Brock’s TD in the 2nd wasn’t that great. Not enough drive.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 7, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I meant Fagan should add, or at least could have added, the .gif to his article.
I don’t understand your criticism of his successful takedown. “Not enough” implies that he didn’t use sufficient force. Since he scored the takedown, you should elaborate, at least if you were trying to communicate a meaningful criticism. Also I don’t understand your comment on his takedown’s not being “great.” How is that at all relevant when I made a point that his technique was good? If you have something substantive to add regarding how his technique was deficient, please do it.
I see the gif you’re referring to above. Nice .gif, although I disagree with your analysis. Brock was clearly going for a takedown and wasn’t trying to clinch. (At least I’d guess most would disagree with you.) Carwin starts whizzering Brock’s right arm which was attempting to secure, at that point, a body lock. Also, with respect to the first part of the takedown attempt (or the first of the two take down attempts), when you try to wrap your arms around someone’s legs and then bull rush forward, you are attempting to take that person down. Watch Brock’s left hand after he initially attempts to grab Carwin. He’s clearly trying to grab him behind the knee, which is proper hand placement for a double leg. You could engage in a semantic battle about what “clinch” means, but if you don’t want to do that (and I think you shouldn’t because it’s a losing battle to argue Brock was trying to clinch with Carwin by grabbing him behind the knee), you could just say that your definition of clinch is most people’s definition of takedown and be done with it.
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